War Story 022: Scott Ryder, 2nd Commando Regiment (Afghanistan)

Hi guys and welcome to the War Story podcast. For those of you who are joining us for the first time, very warm welcome to you. Thanks for coming in. A little bit by myself, served in the British Army, in the infantry, I've since become an author, screenwriter, and pretty much everything I do is to do with veterans war and the podcast is part of that, a big believer that we need to archive our own stories, get the stories of our veterans down, because probably not many other people are going to do it for us, so it's on us to to record these stories while we're still young, quote unquote, enough to remember them. So to that end, we have another fantastic guest on today. Before we get in, just want to give a bit of an ask, obviously to free podcast to listen to, all we ask in return is that you give up a little bit of your time in helping to spread the word about the podcast. Do that, however you like, tell them eight, text to mate, share something on social media. I mean, that's really easy to do now. I mean, it's on me. I don't really put enough out on social media. I'll put my hand up to that, try to do a bit more. Fortunately, there's so many hours in the day, if anyone wants to jump in and help on that, you're more than welcome. But if you see a post coming up, that's about the podcast or everything like that. If you could hit that little reshare button, that would help a lot, or if you can text a link to a friend, if you can leave a review, anything like that, Spotify, comments, anything to help us with getting in the algorithm, getting some new people, then we'd really appreciate it goes. Today's guest, Scott Ryder, he's a an Aussie. You know, I love having Aussies on the podcast. Natural storytellers, I'm finding Scott served in the Australian paratroopers before going on to serve it with the commandos elite regiments. We've had, well, at that number on before John Dixon, who had some cracking stories about their tours out in Afghanistan. Scott is no different. These stories absolutely blow you away. Unfortunately, obviously a lot of the times with these stories, there is also a tragic element to that. Scott wins through those kind of all deals as well. It was really great, really great guests, guys. Really enjoyed the conversation with them. And the great users as well is if you want to hear more from him, which I'm sure you will. He's also written a book for Infire. It's available on Amazon. I'll put the link down in the show notes and grab that internationally as well. There's an audio book available. You can listen on Spotify Premium, audible, those kind of places. I'll put the links for all these kind of, all these things down in the show notes, including how to connect with Scott on social media. He's given up his time to be with us today. So please square him away. If you can, if you can afford to, pick up a copy of the book. And if you can't give it a share anyway, because someone you know might want to read it, throw the recommend it. I've been looked at it myself. Listen to it as well. The audio books great. So yeah, guys, get involved. Please, as I always say, I'll do this even if it's not when I was listening. But you are listening. So while you're here, please give us a share. And please support the people who give up their time to be on the podcast. All right, guys, that's enough, shit of, shit of chatter from me. Let's get into the podcast. Scott, welcome to the podcast. Make it to you on how are you? How are you? Thanks for having a sombal up. Yeah, I'm good. Mayn has things. Feeds are excellent. I'm looking forward to getting into today's episode. We've helped one of your mates on before, John Dixon. Yep. So, you know, just say, move a bit of pressure. Live up to one of our best episodes. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Okay. So let's get, let's get into the real basics, mate. Obviously, Bill might have picked up your accent where you're from in the world, but where are you from specifically? I'm just tell us a bit about your background growing up and what kind of led you towards the army? Yeah, sure, mate. So I'm currently now north of Sydney in Australia, as the accent can probably pick up from. I actually worked in drop in Australia, born my father's Nepalese, my mother's old eight. So I was actually born in Kathmandu in the 80s. So I lived in Nepal until I was about 12. Then my parents decided to, I suppose, growing up in a developing world in the 80s, probably wasn't the most best place to get raised in a family. So my parents decided to move to Australia. So moved to what I was 12, mate. And did the normal schooling thing play the sport, but for me, I, and people often ask me this, but I actually unsure exactly where it came from, but I always knew I wanted to be a soldier. I think their idea, I suppose, maybe I was love looking for some structure and some direction. And I think they moved from different countries, for 12 year olds, suppose, you know, in hindsight, can be pretty disruptive. But that definitely wasn't the reason for me back then. I also always wanted to be a soldier, mate. I just wanted to join the army and serves at 16 and on mud. So I went to the British hoppers and listed. And I think from from that 12 to 17, I did the army cadets, which I'm not, I'm not, I know you guys have a very similar over the UK. So I did the army cadets stuff, which, you know, in the Nantes was, was pretty good fun. You got to jump out of planes and, you know, shoot raffles and do rope being, I think all I do now is fucking drill that, and it was good to get rid of back then there. So let's dig in a bit, then, mate, about always knowing you want to be a soldier, right? Because I feel the same way. I saw that all I really wanted to do. Well, maybe not necessarily a soldier, obviously, I had about what it's be a fast jet pilot at some point as well, you know, but as a lot of us do. But is there is there something to be said like, do you reckon like, do you reckon warriors are born made? Is it a combination of both? Yeah, look, I think that's a really interesting question, mate. I suppose to answer that for the sake of brevity, we're going to sort of understand, you know, how we define a warrior, right? So, so firstly, I've I'm on opinion, I don't think that everyone that puts on your form is a warrior. I think building a warrior has a few key elements. And firstly, it has to be fostered in an environment that promotes the warrior mindset. So, you know, put your team, say, um, put your team first yourself second, the concert pursuit of excellence, just the the the grind and getting after it. And it has to be specific to your job, you know, so it's really hard to have a warrior culture. I think we're also talking military as specific. It's hard to have a warrior culture when you're in a support obtain, you know, where your job is not to take the fight to the enemy. So firstly, I think a warrior culture has to be generated or, you know, has to stem from an organization whose purpose is is the application of violence, because warriors apply violence. So, so yeah, look, I think the warrior culture, I did, I definitely don't think warriors are born. I think that the right type of people can find the right type of organizations where that is fostered over time. I think you can train anyone to do anything, but it takes a certain type of person who willingly puts themselves through, I mean, let's be honest, I can at times, I say, misery for the sake of doing a job that most people don't want to do. So, in a long-winded way, road answer question, I think that I think it's a part, part A and part B, I think it's both I think that the type of people who find themselves in these types of roles, I think there is something organically inside them that makes them want to do it. But that doesn't always necessarily correlate into being a warrior, lack of a bit of its own, because they have to be in a right organization, have the right God and see what mentorship and be surrounded by people who think alike. So, if the stars align, I think a warrior culture can definitely be instilled in someone, but they have to have the foundations already. You can't change someone's personality who may not be with that way in decline. Does that make sense? Yeah, it totally does matter, these are great answers. You've got a quote at the beginning of the book, I forget the chap's name, believe he was Greek. He was a goddess here. I let you say it, my Greek eats are good, but some people might know I'm going to paraphrase it essentially about how within an army or any battle you'll have, as a matter of people who are there to make up the numbers, etc. You've got a copy there, all right, you can read it out for us. Yeah, look at it, it's one of my favourite quotes, out of every 100 men, ten shouldn't even be there, eight are just targets, nine are the real four is, and we're lucky to have them, so they make the battle, but the one is a warrior, he'll bring the others back. I think that's one of my favourite quotes, hence what's important. Yeah, it's brilliant. I think obviously back in that time, you didn't have the tough-to-tail ratio that you had now. It was, you know, you're someone with voting rights in your town, right, will pick your shield and come and defend us, I'll see you state against the other state state, and so I think those kind of numbers now, when you look at how an army's made up tough to tell, I think those numbers kind of hold out pretty well for like a larger army, as opposed to these old like citizen armies, whenever they get the shield, go make a foul-anks and go with the crashing to the next-door neighbours' war. Yeah, look, I think sad to not comment before, maybe, is that warrior culture. I also think it's very, you know, environment specific, you know, and there's been numerous examples throughout the world and up to the out and racing history where the society that's relatively peaceful, and a peaceful society that isn't threatened, like most of the countries in the West, where we have no risk of invasion, we live up, you know, it's on the best terms of living, we've ever experienced in the planet, and people spend all their time on, you know, ridiculous all your ideologies, whether it's gender or activism and so forth, whereas there's plenty of examples where cultures and societies have been turned into warriors to defend themselves. I mean, Ukraine's one example, right? There's been numerous examples throughout history where a person may not say that they're a warrior, but that it comes out of a pure necessity. So, in that case, I think warriors can be bred out of necessity, but I think it's a different conversation when you're looking at the developed world, rather than parts of the world where this is a regular occurrence. Yeah, Evan, I totally agree. I've been looking at a lot of First World War stuff recently. There's one VC winner that sticks out to me who's a schoolteacher before the war, goes overseas, wins a VC, comes back, goes back to teaching in school, and is the chairman of the Village Flower Club. I'm like, "You know, I'm very, like God, El Betty would have stepped out "aligned in that flower club, but yeah, I think you answered really well, I think that's a great way to point it." So, get back onto your own kind of development into that warrior culture. It sounds like, because you joined through the RAA, which I believe has to parachute, this parachute infantry battalion. Yeah. So, what was it then at that point? Because obviously, you're already choosing to go to units with these warrior ethos as you're choosing to put yourself into those more elite areas of military service. So, why three RAA? Why the infantry, I guess, first? Why the infantry? Why parachute infantry? I look away, why infantry? Because what 17-year-old kid doesn't want to jump out of planes, shoot guns and blow shit up, probably. I think that was probably what I was an army kid at. I suppose that's partly geography too. So, the third battalion was based in Sydney, where I'm from, and where I actually spent my entire, almost trained for a year career, never posted it at Sydney. But I just thought that would be the best way to go. I saw the Shrine soldiers deployed to East Teiboran, 999 when I was just a road road on the army, and I just wondered what would be amongst it. And for me, the idea of jumping out of planes for a job just seemed phenomenal. And the alternative was if you had a non-parashoot Italian, you drive in a truck, you go up to back the truck, or a live press plate, whereas I thought it was a lot more exciting to jump out of the plane at 1,000 feet and come into exercise. So, that was an initial attraction for me. But unfortunately, the Shrine army, the Shrine Defence Force, they've since collapsed, the third battalion, we no longer have any conventional airborne forces. So, the only qualified postures forward in Special Operations Command, which is unfortunate. But I think, for the army as size, I think the being canals realized that if they ever were going to deploy, you know, a company of soldiers to secure an airfield, it probably wasn't going to be the infantry, it was going to be Special Operations. But the systemic overview of the Shrine and the Special Operations is a different conversation. But I think that's where it started, where there was recognition that we're not going to put, you know, a Shrine infantry in Hansway. But I've got my question, mate, I look, I had an absolute ball. I, you know, the third battalion in the early 2000s, I think my first week in three hours, I was up to 9/11, I was 7/10 years old, and it was, you know, probably not what would pass the pub test today in terms of what Western society and cultures allow. It was your typical, you know, Lads battalion. There's eight females there. Every day, you just wanted to pack March, do PT, you know, jump out of planes, go hard at bush, they're not, you just drink piss, get in a punch on, go on a CD or the same. And I just loved it, you know, I just, I just, I, I just brought into this whole, you know, battalion lad, you know, boots and all that, you, you can go to care about anything else about money, about having to go a friend, about living off base. I just wanted to live on base, drink piss with the boys and just go hard at my job. And I think, and I certainly did that for many years. It. Were you there at the same time or friend of the podcast pulled the girl there? Yes, yes, it's a man and man poor, we're both an alpha company, three are all together. In actual fact, man poor or poor, or rather, we, we both went over to WA in Perth to do a junior promoter, junior leaser's course. We both private looking to get promoted to Ansgarple. And, um, and Paul said to me, I'm leaving the army, I'm going to be at Navy Diabah, I just came up here for a free holiday summer. So, no, for me, mate. So, every night we jump the fence and go at the piss and Perth. And, and, and, and exactly, exactly, exactly, as he, as he wanted to after two weeks, he said, I'm done. He left. But I like, I actually could go on up with Paul recently in LA when I was there a few weeks ago. We have got to get a good day, catch up. No, I know. So, let's talk about, um, still like East Seamble, um, your first operational experience. Can you give people who, maybe I'm familiar with, uh, the situation there, what was going on, uh, on a broader scale and then what your own role was? Yeah, sure, mate. Look at the, that's pretty simple answer. I think the country was, was without getting into issue lesson. Um, it was an explorer in Indonesia. There was a whole bunch of instability and, you know, after years and years of occupation, the strength of a dude saw it intervene. But, but then the question, by the time we got there, there wasn't really much happened. I'm acting a single shot was fired, you know, for, for years and years and years and it became right about longest appointments. But I think it was good for the showing army to sort of, to, to test what it's like to force project and to actually be deployed. We hadn't really done it since the Vietnam. We had small contingents in Somali and Rwanda, but, um, you know, small contingents, you know, over their force and, and special operations in the first call for, but the showing army had never really deployed. So, I think it was a really good test for, for all elements of the sort of defense ecosystem before 9/11. Um, well, then, the question, mate, I was, it was probably one of my hardest trips. It wasn't because it was, uh, any danger involved from threats, but it was your typical old-school hard work in for true soldiering, you know, all seven years old. I think I weighed about 60, 63 kilos. I went pack weighed, you know, three quarters of my body and we were out, out, out as sections, you know, out in the jungle, but 14 days of the time, being resupplied by helicopter. Um, and for me, it was a real baptism of fire, not in the center being shown at, but just by being a constant buck up, you know, I was a 17, just turned 18 year old, you guy, or lead as we pull it in, in the Australian army. And I was always in trouble. I was always forced to keep on picking, it was always losing shit. I was always getting charged, but, um, you know, it was a really difficult environment to make personal mistakes when you have the new guy with it, much as seeing soldiers, and you're always in the shit, but what I started to do, mate, was I really started to, to instill in me some, some mechanisms and lessons that I would take to my entourage, you know, so I became fanatical about always checking my gear, because I just do not want to get shit to lose and something ever again, you know, once you've been paraded and bullied and humiliated and charged and double-pickets and infringed and all the things that happened to a young lad in the battalion, I was just like, well, I don't want to do this again. So, so I learned to build these habits and retain that that stayed with me for a long time. Um, and I think, I think those mistakes are almost allowable for young infantry and battiers. Um, as I said, mate, it's certainly formed a foundation for the rest of my career, but look, I'm absolutely poor, mate. Um, it was physically hard, it was hard because I was always in the shit because no, no, I'm not involved except my own, but what really do you think might look and back, it formed the foundations of my classic soldiering, you know, like I always always say, maybe in my last few years, if within special operations, is that there is nothing that we do in SF that advocates a responsibility to maintain out basic infantry skills. Everything is an extension of their infantry-court skills. The most complex CQB, whether it's close-person infection operations, they can all be faced back to simplistic infantry techniques and procedures. So, uh, and I think the reason I was so privileged on communicating that, you know, when I was a sergeant within Socomand was because I knew that's what helped me. So, it was an encounter for me and for Chewbackrion, or it's still always so, you know, what makes especially was we do the basics to what, what are the basics to do with me through Sultryn? You hear a lot of people say, you know, it's big part of British Airsoft selection is the jungle. So, as an Aussie soldier, I mean, you've got jungles in Australia, right? I mean, a lot on the World War II fighting was Australia. East Timo, sorry, a lot World War II was jungle, Timo jungle. Did you find that being in that jungle environment really made me think that you had to be on your ship? Do you think that that, do you think the jungle training is like one of those kind of pinnacle environments where it comes to holding the skills? I'll look absolutely right. I think that, you know, in a similar fashion, we're talking about, you know, talking about CQB or urban operations, there is a way of building key fundamental technical skills where you know what to do. So, when when the gun goes down, you do this, this is tell you move and you can rehearse that, you know, open spaces in the control environment, you know, for safety, for progression of learning, but for infantry, you know, organisations or any organisation, the working in a rural environment, I think that, you know, the pinnacle is the ability to conduct that level of skill within jungle environment. You know, whether it's primary, primary canopy, secondary canopy, I think that, you know, Australia, North, we have some of the most horrendous jungle, I've ever been part of, but you're absolutely right, Australian soldiers have been renowned, you know, from well to flying the Japanese in Dakota, you know, all the way through to more recent operations. Absolutely, I think that, you know, flying in a jungle is physically exhausting. A lot of things don't go well, it's really uncomfortable, and it's, you know, you're talking about really, really close quarters engagements, I suppose, to your prolongances. So, absolutely, I think it is essential, on if any ground tactical element regardless of what their origins were there from, if they haven't been ball tested within the jungle, I think they're falling short. So in terms of your career then, what was the next kind of big move after Timor? Yeah, mate. So I did Timor, I came back and I did a bunch of specialist courses. I did a motor course, which I didn't necessarily enjoy. We did a bunch of exercises. Then I really wanted to go to where to where a reconnaissance fortune. So within the third battalion, when it was a parachute battalion, the only platoon that did square canopy, you know, static one was the recombatune, who lads the rest of the battalion did your thousand foot static one. So for me it was the pinnacle of the infantry soldiering to go to reconnaissance platoon through our area. We were jumping out of planes at 10,000 feet at night and then small four main teams, four main patrols. So I really wanted to do that, mate. So I trained and did that reconnaissance course. I think that was in 2005. I'll see as in four maybe, but I think that course was for me almost just as hard as my selection course for SF because there was, you know, you didn't have the big build up and the big psychological barrier that you had that going on SF selection. It's just a course that you did that was hard. So in that sense it was easier, but I think basically, you know, we were working in four main patrols, you know, the formation profile, which is the last phase of the course. I mean, it was like 15 days in a state forest down in southern New South Wales. And you were just living in creek lines, living in thick bushes, constantly getting burnt, constantly breaking contact and really heavy packs, you know. It was really the pinnacle of all your command shooting for your soldiering. You know, it was all the basics done again. Really, really well. So I did that course, mate. And I got posted to recombatune, then I deployed again to team or in 2006. And again, team went for that up bit. But the first sort of five or six weeks of that team or trip where it was really, really good, I really enjoyed it. We had a complete autonomy. The only people in the AO were special operations or, you know, three hour every convotune. So we were out doing our thing in patrols once again, where these shots fired, but, you know, we had, you know, obviously we had claim laws out to my OP, you know, that's where LUP and Lockhearing approach and so forth. So I mean, it was a real deal just because there's nothing happened. But for me, mate, there was also the first time I've had exposure to just special operations. You know, for example, we're doing a recontask. We'd see something and we'd call it in the radio. And the response was always, yeah, Roger, standby. Don't go anywhere. That we'd see an SF element come clean it up or come connect the task with RAID. So, for me, really early on, there was, I felt like a little brother looking over the fence, you know, I'd worked hard and I'd done, I'd tried to, you know, all I wanted to do was be the best of his job. And I felt like we weren't giving the opportunity because everything just got sent to the SF Guards. So that's the, the SEA was planning for me to go SF. And, you know, and to just some other things too, mate, like, you know, the first five or six weeks there, we, we established with the SF Guards, a helicopter port, which ended up being one of the one of the operating bases. And, you know, it was just, we were living out of our packs, we were just eating rations and we were, we were, we went out of this nine day patrol and then we came back and all the sudden there's a bunch of warrenopsies run around till people would roll their sleeves down and blouse their boots and you'd get a haircut and, you know, you'd get to unload and go to load and, and, you know, so I often commented about this, you know, people who were not really used to handling weapons like most people in the army, you know, for those people who aren't in defence and they think that every one of the army fires weapons all the time. I can tell you right now that is not the fact. There are some jobs in the army where you see the rifle once a year and you can barely hit a side of a barn and you get a tick in the box because you're a clerk or you're a dentist right now I'm going to shoot it, you can shoot, you're a tick in the box. You know, we then had these people where there was no rules, everyone stayed at action in the action commission, they made them the weapon, the, the round of the chambers had to catch it on safe. All of a sudden, they'd all start to come in and you go on to the front gate, you need to be at load. And in this part of the base, you need to be at action that unload. So you had to leave this fucking port dude to barely touch a gun and, you know, when they're tied at 3 in the morning, they're trying to unload their guards and there's a negligent to show just like, "I flipped right and said I had the game, I can dad's army." So we're not all that stuff started happening. You know, we came back up with a large patrol, absolutely exhausted and one of their guys is getting pinged by some truck driver warrant. So because of these boots, we're going, you know, we're not placed on properly. So he's pants weren't blouse properly and I just thought, "That's not going to be my deal when you're done." So I'll put in my special forces application models in team to commence at least in 2007. Yeah, I think Dick had poges, remfs, whatever you want to call them. I've probably done more for like SF recruitment than anything else in the world. Like, "Oh, I'm just driving, driving blogs out of the army as well." Usually one direction or the other. I mean, I'll leave in all, I could have tried going SF. So with this Simon, like big picture as well, like obviously Iraq's happened. Afghanistan's been going on. Is the scope for, is this, you kind of looking at like big picture operations outside of the team or as well and saying, "If I want to get to any of these things and do anything, it's going to have to be SF." I'm just absolutely 100% might think, "I think, you know, I'm in the hard, the year, I'll make it the year right." It was 2004 when the, you know, children had initially invasion when there was a big battle of Fallujah, the first battle of Fallujah. I remember watching the news at night and watching, you know, USM, US Marines, just, you know, close-clothed or fighting, if you're Lujat for days and days and we were on some exercise shooting blanks and I just thought, like, "What are we doing here?" You know, Australia has never really done anything in Iraq. I think the, especially as a service, had a role initially after 9/11. But, particularly for the conventional forces, our role was always in an Overwatch battle group or in some top of diplomatic protection at the Australian Embassy. So the Australian infantry really missed out on ever-decade of falling where they really could have sharpened their skills. And I think, I think for a lot of us, I was almost embarrassed and we spoke to our UK or US, our partners, because I think everyone knew that we weren't doing shit. We weren't really contributing in a meaningful way. Obviously, you know, war's extension of politics and there was political reasons outside of that. But as you aren't, you get a lot of work, you just try to get amongst it right. So I think that, that in itself, it pushed a lot of people from conventional infantry or conventional forces towards special operations because there was a recognition really early on, like, "Why don't you do this shit real?" That you had to go SF. And was SF during the war on terror, did it expand in size as well as, kind of, scope or was it the same kind of peacetime size that everyone's trying to get into? Ah, look, I would probably say that the army, if we did grow numbers, you'd look, I haven't looked this up, so please, I quote me out, this is my observation, but I think there was certainly more people joining with the understanding that there was opportunity to go do is real time. Yeah. So speak to yourself then, when you went for it, I don't know how much you allowed to talk about selection process and things like that, but if you can tell us anything about it, could you just give us a rough overview of maybe what selection looked like and what you found the hardest? Yeah, sure, my look, I think the selection story for us is pretty similar. I'm probably a bit too truthful, Tom's just on the price, you know, two in Australia, the second commander regiment, Sydney, especially the service regiment in Perth. And very recently, I think it was only last year, you before, that we've gone to a joint selection model, very similar to the AKSF. I've been up until that path, I've had to like joint selection model, there was two separate selection courses in. It's the typical stuff, I think my selection course was four weeks. It's a lot shorter now, but back then it was the selection and training course, so it was your selection and your rural tactics course one. And it was the typical stuff. You got beasted, a lot of PT, you'd sleep a lot, carried a lot of weight, you know, a lot of guys didn't prepare it and pulled out. There's not enough milk, you know, a bit of that selection except the fact that it's just miserable as your other fucking selection, of course, that there is. But for me, people often speak about selection as the sort of, you know, the entry point into a unit and that's pretty common or, you know, perception for people to have who have never done it. But, you know, selection is probably the easy part. You know, what comes next is a 13 month reinforcement and training cycle, where some courses are just as physically hard as your selection course, be a learning as well. So, you know, after selection course, you went to your S.S.S.E. weapons course, the gochery which we learn all the different weapons, because obviously we have different weapons, it's a conventional army. It's not to what you guys had to do. You guys have the SA-80 ballpark, but the piece of shit style ballpark, everyone in Socomon uses them for. So there was all the different spectrum of weapons and obviously you got different people to different backgrounds, you may not, or it may not even be different to your rights right. So it's an all-port application process. So anyone in defense can apply for a set. So it starts off the very beginning, you know, like, hey, this is a, this is the machine going, this is the pistol all the way through to your advanced weapons. Then, enough of that, you know, there was a solace, this changes in terms of what sequence it takes. But for my reinforcement cycling 2007, it was S.S.E. weapons after it, there was a command-ode selection training course, then S.S.E. weapons. For that, it was amphibious operations course, that's five weeks, it was being locked in miserable and wet, you know, dry random boats. And it had our special operations, roping course, which is another five weeks, that's all your roping, you know, ascent descent, fast-roping, etc, etc. Then there was the demolitions course, demolitions and bridging course. had you had your advanced coach for the battle course, which is another six weeks. And so these courses, they'd be parachute in course and the event, but beds make sports. So these courses, they just compound, they just doesn't stop. After about six months, you just absolutely fatigue. You know, it's the fatigue, not in this show, the physical fatigue, but of constantly being under un-assessment, constantly being, you know, we had guys and it was still removed in nine, ten months into the training slot. They've done slicks, they've done not much training and they just weren't at the standard. So there was that constant fear of, you know, who's getting to do next. It's going to be this course, the next course. So you'd still have guys like washing out, even that far into it. What about when you get to a unit two? Because I've heard people talk about like essentially a lot of places just have essentially like a probation period for a couple of years, too. So if you get there and if I could, then you might, you know, you're still even once you get in the into, I don't know, do you guys call them squadrons? Like once you get to a squadron, you know, yeah, like once you get to a squadron, you're still an assessment for, well, maybe even on it just forever. Like is that ever any time with your normal assessment? Yeah, look, I don't know if any unit has that as a hard and fast rule. I think the bell atomic gets to a person being, being posted in those squadrons. They've already been assessed and selected by their peers. So the whole, the whole idea of the Special Operations Unit and how it can maintain its culture is every single person that unit has complete buy-in to firstly who their peers are and that, you know, and who their offices are to it. So, you know, offices don't just like offices. You have a private operator who is going to be assessing an officer candidate, you know, so everyone has buy-in. So, but the only organizations, you know, as I said before, outside of Australia, please tactical groups where you directly choose your next replacement, your teammate, and your next leader. And that's how you can maintain the culture. As you're in conventional forces, you go through training, pop-up, long-it, qualified, and you get posted to a unit. Is that receding? Yeah, does there really have any agency or thought of who they get right? So, but for that reason, mate, I think by the time, if the time of guys come to squadrons, that I look, there is definitely a phase of what's your squad like. Let's see how he goes, you know, but it certainly isn't, you know, there's no fault assessment after 12 months to keep his squad around. I think there is a strong willingness to get from the new operator to be accepting the organization. And those guys work hard, even in the first few months in the unit, because they know that they're being watched. But there is no formal process to assess to, you know, once they've wanted to qualify and post to the end of the truth. So once you're in your squadron, and how long was it before, I actually should ask, how does squadron already been going to Afghanistan at this point? Or, you know, when you get there, when's your first kind of standard for Afghanistan? And how that had anyone better before? Yeah, I have a question, mate. So, so some of the back then we were still called companies. We're going to just move to squadrons in the last few years. But, but so I got qualified and got my beret in December 2017. And by April 2008, I was deployed to Afghanistan. So I was with Alpha Company Commander Group, or now, A squadron. And those guys had done one previous rotation in year 4. So I was me and one other guy with the only new guys, with a bunch of guys that already been deployed in 2006. So it wasn't, wasn't very long at all, mate. You know, I'd spent six, seven years in the regular army. Never followed a shot. And here I am, you know, within, within three or four months of being called, fires and operator, I'm going off the wall. Right. And how did you feel about that? I was excited. Yeah, I was so fucking excited. I got to do podcasts the other week and I was, I was, I was, you know, I mentioned that, you know, everyone remembers their first, first of everything, like, and I think for me, it was the first deployment. And so, certainly obviously, it was the first time, you know, I was in a gun flight. And so, fourth, third for me, it was just all this feeling of complete contentment, you know, right? But I was on an ATB on a club like, I was a number one scout, a recon team. And he just ride ran a desert in a ball cap in T-shirt, middle of summer, and I've got to stand here with rockets hanging off the bike and machine guns. I like, I'm 24 years old. I was thinking, "Fuck, there is nowhere else I'd be able to do only sure I hear what out." I was just completely content. So before we go into, I want to talk about your first contact. But just gives an idea of what the, the companies, the commander group submission is out there. Yeah, sure, mate. So the Australian Special Operations Commission was basically in support of the reconstruction effort. So, the Australians there were to win hearts and minds, which we have been able to do, you know. Within the fly-byes community in 30 years, I'm like, "Show's hearts, who's right, just opposed to one, we haven't won a fucking single war since Korea." So, that's another conversation for some. But, you know, the aim was reconstruction. So it was still being infrastructure, hospitals, bridges, schools, the infantry soldiers, you know, unfortunately, the job was basically providing protection for the reconstruction effort. And the Special Operations Task Group, or the SOTG, our job was to carry out and basically flying the enemy so that they didn't find the infantry and or the reconstruction effort. So if it sounds loose and vague, that's exactly what it was. I think that's the term they come up with was disruption operations. So the main, in 2008, we had two main jobs. First one was to disrupt GTelabane, you know, infrastructure areas, which basically that would just drive around the convoy vehicles until someone shot at us and we'd go and fight until we won. Now, that may seem like I'm watering it down, but that was 100% emission. But the other part, which I was really fortunate to experience, was the targeting GTelabane leadership. So, we had varying role levels of direct action authority. For example, one level would be a soft cordon and cordon and knock and call the person out, you know, a cordon and call out, or a level two would be an explosive breach direct action. There's no requirement for early warning. If a person was on a list, we have this thing called a J-Cole list where the 4-Bus intelligence agencies would put this person on a list and they'll be either to kill capture, capture kill. So, I think we did something like 23 or 24, no level to redirection rate, which was, you know, still to this day, some of the best shit I've done. It would typically involve this driving out for a day or two in the middle of nowhere. So, there's a couple of vehicles into like a harbour, leaves and buys with the vehicles and then we'd start walking and we'd just walk all night, get to a compound, it's fair and wide. Then, it's low speech, the walls, the gates, the building, gain entry, you know, in engage kill or arrest, the people we're able to then leave. So, it was your classic special operations, you know, and I think there's often had these memories of, it was actually, when I first saw the movie Zero Dark 30, you know, you know, that that scene where they were approaching the compound and you just see the lasers over every door and window as the guys are making a approach and I just, when I first saw that, it just took me back to all the countless times, you know, I've been under the old green NVG, what was towards the target community, it was just lasers dancing with all the windows and doors, you know, so it was pretty fun, cool man, yeah, I really had a pool. Okay, well, I want to get into some action in there, but I just want to, I feel like there's a little bit, one I know we have some kit pests listening, there was kind of perverts who really intergeared, so let's give them a little boney, let's toss them a little boney and make what kind of equipment are you using, then like personally and any kind of specialist equipment that you think a kit pest would get off of. Yeah sure, mate, so firstly to all the, all the kit pests, you're a fucking hobby that's not fucking so boring, and also, also, lose your fucking virginity, but now I'll get it in, so our weapons were M4, so we had M4, they were a primary weapon system, for pistols we had USB, HKUSP, other weapon systems we have, and the recon signal that MP5 STs, so you can approach MP5 variants, on our ATV, we had MAG 58772 machine guns, we had six or six rockets on the box as well, also had 40 mil, or you know, I ordered two or three M2, we had dual NVGs, I think, actually I was a name, I think, as certainly the only guys had dual nods, I think MP3 still had single nods back then, yeah, and the vehicles had 50 shells, might go into ANS, yeah, A1 mil more, A4 cargo stuff, but yeah, I think it's very mate. Alright, let's get a good war story then, so what was your first time, first time getting into contact, first time after, well, eight years now with the military getting around there, how was it? Yeah mate, so I was one of the new guys to the team, and I think after about eight weeks, had been a short flight, you know, I had always anticipated getting over here and doing all this shit, and I thought to myself, I think the guys go with Jack of my constant winging about when we're going to see some action, you know, it could be Tom, it's like maybe it's tomorrow, maybe it's tomorrow, and just never happened, you know, I'm never lying, bed one, I'm thinking, it's just my luck, you know, I'm the first person in the history of the S-GF Special Operations Task Group, I'm not getting a gun flight, this is actually something that must happen soon. Anyway, so we weren't down to weight, very long, and it's, I've got this part in the bulk of the out, the first time I was actually in a gun flight, it was actually a robber bike, and I was lying on the bottom of a creek line with my guns and bike and the ships for everywhere, and then that's when we got engaged. So certainly it wasn't the way that I always picked you in my mind where I'd, you know, scream out, take cover and run to cover and start putting rounds down, I was literally lying in my back, we were well thought was broken legs, I couldn't even find my gun. So probably not ideal, but I just remember thinking, the first thing you're going to think was how much, you know, being shot at sounds like being on the range, so I'm not sure what you guys caught in the UK, and you've got the same, but you've got your lucky open. and sort of range, you've got the butts part, you know, where you're going to the dug-in part and dipped and, you know, a lot of the targets and we've got some of those ranges here and you always stand there and you can always hear the crack and the crack and the snap, you know, the rounds come in every head and the first thing I remember thinking was how much it sounds like being at the butts of a range, which, say, on silly let's at first thought in my head. Anyway, so the two of the lads come out of the high ground and got engaged, they both returned fire. Most of their force element was dismantled, we were the only guys on our bike sill, so the 10km/h go the bikes up on their versatile heel and start returning fire. Ben Sharp, who was killed in the chopper crash, he realised it all was down and bottom of the heel and he came down and said, "Squat, get on, get on, so jump to the back of his bike, went up to the contact site, then I got there and he lost it, I died in my bike and I don't have anything except M4 and it was way past fire and I'm going to be there, so it's not much I could really do." So I just thought to myself, "This is the only contact by the guy I've been, I'm going to fire a reach-fuckin' ripping system I can." Looking back now, I was very mature and I mean, I'm going to take a minute to see him tell me to pull my head in, but I went in fire, you know, for fire and make a 48, so I was just going to be running a compound, I saw him 84 rock at that, 66 rock at that time and I just went nuts for about 5 minutes and then take him out and tell me to come and fuck down, so I did bit. Yeah, but that was my first contact, mate. I wish it was more glorious and I would always have covered myself in glory, better than that, but it was a, there's one of those things, you know, I was so, so excitable, it was pent-up energy and all this excitement, anticipation, I did everything wrong, no, I wasn't car, I was composed, I was shaking too much, I didn't, I didn't check in the sights and my rockets, so I just did a bunch of dumb things, but I think that, unlike anything I think, you know, being in combat is an experience and the second and third time I was better at it, I was better at the slow-following, which was not, you know, so it was a better test than much for I, but not quite the way I would want it, mate. Yeah, well, I would say like, no one that loses their virginity is going to be like Dom Warnos or something of them, right, look how I'm sutured at the end of it, it's just, you can just go out and get through it. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, so yeah, Kit Pests, go and lose it. So, yeah, look, I mean, look, if you think the guys, there's a whole bunch of photos on my Instagram, I'm sure you'll put up any, put up their show notes to the guys and I'm sure they'll throttle over that. Yeah. Oh, excuse me, I was like, hmm. So I'm obviously getting a bit too excited, they were the worst. So what was there any, obviously like the first contact is something you never forget, but is there any others from those kind of, from that deployment that really stand out to you for whatever reason? Yeah, absolutely, mate. So probably the other notable things was, it was one of the first Australians to move into Helmand Province, so conduct to disruption operations and I'm trying to think, although the free power had already been there, you guys already had a British presence at the end of the Helmand, and I think that that increased significantly from sort of 2009 onwards, but Australians hadn't really been into Helmand Province, so I think there was a first time we actually moved into Helmand and, you know, we hit some significant resistance straight away and, you know, but the notable thing for me was, there was a first time or so significant air assets, you know, bombing, and I'm talking, you know, Dutch fast jets, you know, UK carriers, you know, British B1 bombers from Guam, you know, dropping 2,000 pound bombs into the Greenbelt, I think at the end of the end of night of day two, I was lying in my swag, next to my bike, and I could just, you know, I'll look, I feel like my back was lifting an inch off the ground, just from the constant bombs that were gone off in this part of the arm, I think it's what sort of north-east think of Jackie? But yeah, so that was pretty insane for me to see that, you know, just to see the raw firepower and the other destruction that we have, but that's sort of that, man, I think the other notable one was we did a, it was notable for a few reasons firstly because it was one of the very few times we were inserted by a Australian helicopter, so, you know, it was an Australian search for the Seven Chinook that inserted us, and our mission was to following this dude, it was a senior Taliban commander, and the Australian chopper's chopper's off 8K's away from target, and it was a pretty tough walking, but in that walking, it was, it was one of one of the most kinetic sort of opposed to actions that we did, you know, I think we had done, you know, four or five fighters, including the type of person we're looking for killed on target, and that was the first time that we saw, you know, conducting urban experiences and all our drills actually coming into play, and just how important it is to all these principles that we teach continually to our operators, you know, it was all validated, I stay, you know, you know, when your movements are doorway, what to do, you know what to do, you know, what to do, you know, what does this person do, and the amount of time we had training under NVGs already in Australia certainly helped us out in coming to play. The first time I saw the enemy dead, I'm close to, you know, there was a four dead, a lot of teams conducted appearance through a grenade and created this compound, there was a bunch of dead dudes and I came in through and helped with the flight back, and there was, you know, you could see the first time I saw the enemy up close and looking at the ripped part bodies and the smell and like, this is what that dude is like, you know, so that was pretty notable for those reasons, my, you know. So just to get kind of get it back idea of this target, is it a week, is it like a small kind of collection of compounds that you're working through or a single? Yeah, yeah, so it was actually a fairly significant cluster. There was, there was three, there was three main compounds where the target building was inside, the main target building was surrounded by about a five foot wall, about 50 meters of northeast was another large compound inside that had about 15, 20 rooms. So it wasn't just a team who managed to get the jackpot and was conducting the actual task in that compound. There was, you know, a whole bunch of buildings using fighting age miles, going on as well. So there was a lot going on here. What's something that I, you know, you mentioned the amount of training you did and how that benefited you, but what's something that you learned on these missions that you had kind of, that you didn't feel prepared for, that you had to kind of adjust to quite quickly if anything. Yeah, absolutely mate. Confusion and restraint. So, you know, they are playing, they are saying no plans to go to H.H.O.A. Well, that's, have 100% correct. You know, you can't be always planned and you rehearse. We're going to get off the helicopter here and we're going to rush to this compound and you're going to make them into the north-east in gate. You're going to clear a clockwise direction and the other teams of these other teams will have that. And you get there and a helicopter landed at the wrong YLZ. It completely sorry, I'm tired of this. There's no wall there. There's no, there's no aqueducted pre-tlan. You know, one team's got the wrong way. So it is the ability to adapt when things go wrong. Instantaneously, which I've grabbed drastically underestimated. And the second one was restraint. They're my biggest fear. Traveller in Thai career, whether it's in particular YLZ and even in training, wasn't being hurt or been cute. It was me shooting on my makes. And for people who don't, you know, are lighting this world, they may be surprised by that. But the amount of time I've been in an assault or being in a gun fox, it's a bit night where, you know, I've put my gun on my laser or my sight on something and I've just gone to that period of, you know, I have faith. Like, is this the person who is he? And the amount of time is that it's been, you know, an operator that was moving the wrong direction, or just was discharging his head or just through art and parcel of being in a assault was in the wrong place. You know, that happens all time. Yeah, he acted that the complexity of CQB, adding night vision, adding in a post threat, you know, smoke, distraction grades, going off grenades. So you can start to see how it is very, very easy to make him stay. So my biggest feel isn't it have been killed. It was me making a catastrophic mistake and shooting someone I shouldn't. So they were the big, big takeaways for me. And the lessons that I certainly carried on to the rest of my career. And so they've shaped a lot of the activities they'll design with us and sharp risk. We'll ask before I let's go. So there's a lot of movies involving troops kind of going in and out of contact, or sorry, on intermissions on helicopters, right? Thinking about Predator with them played long tour Sally in the back, you know, on the blocks. And there you got Black Hawk down and the ride to the Valque Ries and all that stuff. What's the atmosphere like on the back of her alley as you go it into an open? And what's it like on the way back? Look, I suppose it depends. I'd say most of the time on the way back, tied, sleeping on the way in. There is a head or a head or a head, this is a really good question. I was actually asked this before. I never really had any feelings. I never really thought about, you know, I never had songs playing in my head and top of shit. It was always, you're always thinking about the job. I think this is what some people think. Sometimes they realize they'll say they're jumping out of a plane. I think it'd be so good to jump out of a plane if you job. It's like, yeah, it is. But that's why I think I've had cool this falling out of this. He's thinking about where is my target, where my teammates, there's my rival fall off, where's my map, once I land, what direction do I need to go at, what am I actions on, what are my radios on, what are the freaks that get like this. Here's all these things going to your mind. You're actually just getting a sit there and say, hey, I'm flying in the helicopter in the target. And the higher up you go and rank more responsibility ahead. I say it. So as a junior, I'll probably think about your initial job. Whereas, you know, being a tanker, I'll do a hostage rescue team here in Sydney. You know, you'd be doing an exercise and downtown Sydney flying around the helicopter in the harbour bridge and it's like, hey, this is cool, but I'm not looking at you. And I'm looking at, you know, try to listen to my call. You got two pieces in, look at my map, look at my GPS, where I need to be, what about tasks? So you never really get to enjoy it, it's just blowing, it's close. And like you said, all the way out, then you're just fucked, and you just fully choose it for the sleep. Yeah, yeah, just sleep. Yeah, man, yeah, especially at night. You know, like, no, not red or in flight to back, everyone's just sleeping. Yeah, not really. And do you work in out of one of the bigger bases or on a petrol base, like what's your life? When you're not out on going out on these direct actions, where are you kind of like living and have been in use? Yes. So the Australians were a multinational base town in K out in Uruzgaam Province. So there was a large multinational base predominantly Australian and Dutch down there. And we had around camp called Camp Russell, named after Sergeant Andrew Russell, was one of the first person to come to Afghanistan. Camp was for Australian Special Operations Task Group, which had Foreshawmen, A, the Chief of Specialist Service Regiment, and Foreshawmen Drive-On, which were his tomatoes. And what is life on base like for a rock star in the special forces? Right, honestly, I'd like to say here and say that life on base was not as good as your authorities, but I'll be honest with you, lying, you're just fucking solid. We had a little round in shorts and singlet, you know, dudes and beads and fucking long hair. I think we used to get through, we had a real crocodile and seafood, we used to get seafood and shit to it. I'm not fucking right mate. I remember we did this job, we did this job when we were going into a summery week before two with Romarines with all that. And those boys flew in and were living on the side of the Hesco out on the airfield. And me and my mate Ben Chalk, we were going to zero some guns on our range. We knew that the rains were on base somewhere. And we saw always, okay, Hunchies and tents being set up against the Hesco at the Baking Sun. And looked at them and I said, I can wait a minute, keeping these four legs there. So we were ready at bikes, I was like, okay, boys, what's going on? You guys here to work with, you know, a class of all six, six, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Open Chalkies and said, let's go for a drive lane. So we went back to the match, we just got five or six tubs full of chocolate and power cold ice power raids and coax and the boys fucking fought with that. But we did get really, we did get treated really well mate. Yeah, that's probably one of the perks of, you know, where we could drink bees and we bought, you know, a little back deck, we had our own mess and breakfast. It was, I was really good mate. You know, there was no, I think with Cedia, R.A. boys, they'd be walking around the helmet or their body armor and shit on base. And it's just, we had to do that. That's we're really lucky in that sense here. Yeah. Yeah, not Jell-Story. So, so when you, when you did this first deployment there, are you noticing, like, because obviously you're saying glow down to helmet. Did you feel like the commandos were kind of not eased in as probably not the right word because there's no probably easy job, but are they kind of seeing what you're capable of and giving you more and more increasing tasks? I don't know if that would be through Jason or who would be doing this kind of giving you more and more missions over time. Oh, look, I don't know mate. Like I said, what, what, what, yeah, I was a prophet. So, you know, I was actually in Germany in terms of how these tasks were disseminated. I didn't know that earlier. You were fucked to go and say, what should have no idea about how these tasks came about, mate. So, I'll be talking about my ass here, but you've got to try to answer that. Yeah. So, on that first deployment then, I should ask as well how long your deployments were? They were five and a half months. Okay. So, is there anything, how many deployments did you do altogether? To traffic in a state in particular? My, I did three full-length combat tools. I did about an eight or nine personal protection jobs. So, the second one of Regimen has primacy for looking after two star replacements in war zones. So, that's a government general, prime and star, being civil defense. So those people get an SF protection team for a negative route. So, they don't have much of those jobs in the latest as well. So, anything else you want to tell us from that first deployment? Now, mate, I've actually loved it. It was, it's everything that I thought it would be anymore. So when you got back then, what was the experience like of you coming back from like a war zone for the first time? Well, I mean, you've been to East Seymour, but like your first time being a fire weapon against talking with the enemy. Yeah, man, I think what else? I just moved in with my partner, who I'm still with now, we've already been with Dora. But what do I do? It's 23, 24. I think I just fucking sent it. You got three months straight, just party. Yeah, it wasn't. No, releasing stress for PTSD. I was like, you know, had no responsibility. I was a private. I had a shift, let it mind the bank and I had a whole bunch of leagues. So, fuck, I was just going to do it. I don't know. Some people buy houses and stuff, but they're not bad. Yeah, yeah. Look, I mean, someone did suggest investing in some state, but I just did this little rubbish mate, I'll still be partying. Yeah. And what's the opt-emple like for the commandos? Did you know that you'd be going out soon? Yeah, pretty soon we'd go. Yes. So, we have four companies and there'd be rotation. We had a constant presence there. We have the full-time companies in the in the in the fighting season. The near reserve counterparts would go there during winter. So we pretty much knew that, you know, every sort of 15, 16 months, you were deploying you in. So, yeah, back then, you know, the strange special operations, we didn't do any exercises, extra-peraniac exercises, to get ready to permission to go back overseas again. So, we're not coming back. I did the special course, Starver course. So, I did the whole Starver continuum. So, that's your Starver course, your image caption, transfer, your new stuff that comes with that skill set. So, that formed the first half of March 2009. And then, the last part of 2009 was, yeah, go out and do the preparation courses, so they create courses, so the super-moza courses, because you always, there's always something to do with the SF skill set, trade model. Then, it was to get ready to get back to Afghanistan again in 2010, which we did. So, brief us up on what that taught was about with similar mission. Exactly, I said, except I wasn't in the recon anymore. I was part of one of the two Starver teams. And our job was, as most Starver's would be, was to be the eyes and ears to what early warning and precision fly solutions for the four-cell number conducting operations in ground. Any anecdotes that you want to share about the sniping? Yeah, the Barrett's fucking heavy. And I'd never want to carry it every again. I think all the smaller scoops, all the smaller scoomit teams, of course, are the Barrett. I love all some weapons, but just, you know, extremely, extremely heavy other thing. I think what's 16 kilos unloaded? I think it's 10-round magazines, two kilos. If you go on out on a 48-hour operation, just within your sniper time, all your normal software, your battery's water, your image capture equipment radio, all that. It's just some of the most miserable experiences in my life, or walk up and out, and it might be my path to Barrett. It's the things that I've got to start whatever I do every year. Did you get to fight it? Yeah, yeah, plenty of times. Yeah. I was going to say, is that makeup for carrying it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it does make up for it. But it's still short-lived. It's still got to carry it out of it. Any, can you talk to your shoe? Yeah, mine. So I think I'm trying to remember where I've got the story in the book, but we got inserted, we got inserted what I've watched for a day clearance task. We got inserted straight onto the sniper over what she was over, over what she positioned so there's no requirement to crawl round and bacon say was just flaunt off of the feature and mod fire. And we had no assaulting. It was conducting a clearance down in the Greenbelt. They were engaged, but three insurgents. It's 11 in the morning, brought daylight. So to jump on the gun and up on the Barrett and up and see that Queer is day, three dudes, Black Pajamas, Bangalore, Grenades, AK, like in the movie. The one thing that people don't realize is that I like in the movies where you know, the guys are always behind the wall and the enemy just charges and go with the AKs at the waist. Well, the Taliban also have a strong voice against being shot. They actually don't like running in the open because they get shot easier. So believe it or not, those folks actually maneuver and hide. So you actually can't see the most of the time, which once again, maybe you always get wrong. So it's actually relatively rare to see the full profile of the fighter in broad daylight running. It just happened to be that I was in the elevator position and he was running around a creep at. So for me, it was like bad dudes. Anyway, some of my friends are at the other Barrett 4 on the team. They start engaging and they are fired 13, 14, 15 rounds at these dudes who are running. And obviously, I think that the distance was a bit over a kilometer. You know, 1,000 meters. So a whole bunch of factors when you're firing, you know, a cold barrel shot in terms of all the things you have to do as a sniper. Anyway, so then we had two guys that sort of rough running the corner and sprinted out of you. And I knew there was one guy around here somewhere. So we already, you know, already engaging, already fired. So I looked at the last point that I thought I saw him found a rock and I just kept firing and that rock until I was on. So for the shooters' munchy, I didn't have to hold off. It was basically, you know, shot on. We'd want to scope at the exact range. So it would be easier to have the shot. And I'd just kept scanning left and right, left and right. I had to make spotting and scope and he said, hey, I can see him. just come running out through his pre-bed. I kept scanning, couldn't see him, and then I saw this guy crash, to crash down in an aqueduct. And he must have been really disorientated to where we were, because he was looking so he's right. So as soon as our story's back, I waited for a full length of his back, and I knew I just fired my shots at the rock, so he knew exactly all's on. And yeah, fired around, I knew, for less of our barrel, there was a good shot. For the sniper, amongst the people who were listening to your know, we never would shot or not. Unfortunately, most of the time, we never felt good, but this one and yours are. So other confidence, in the fact, they've just engaged those rounds, the barrels were fine. I was on, and I think there was a, anyone 40 rifles round that shot him in the back, and he spun around, and he was gone, yeah. So that was, I think, thousands and 80 metres. How'd you feel in that moment? How did I feel? I remember one of the first interviews I did, I think it's for the ABC, this journalist asked me and I want to give the same response to that, 'cause it's absolutely true. I mean, there's this thinking about, well, I don't like to do it, it's his life for mine, and I don't take any pleasure in it. And you know, was nasty. I disagree, I've sh*t, I loved it, mate. I was on my best days in my life. I was f*cking exhilarated. Years and years and years, like, yeah, how many countless hours in my life have been laying in the dirt, slapping steel, and turning my dials, and the cold, and the heat, and the wet, and it's like, finally, I got to actually do it, and I was pretty f*cking short. Yeah, I was happy, mate. I was stoked. And not once do I think about that's a human life, that someone's dead, someone's sad. That's staphs and never go to me to be honest, um. Yeah. Fair answer, mate. Fair answer, and, you know, personally agree, and I think a lot of better, but not a lot of people do, and I think it's, I think it's, there's almost this life, feeling of forcing people, but I've read books from, like, "Cows in the Second World War" who have talked about when they get an interview, you didn't like, you know, 20, 30, 40 years later, and people almost journalists trying to pull that guilt out of them, and they're like, "Ah, it's f*cking hot, you know, it felt good." Yeah. So, like, we just say, like, with the, the, the feeling of a, it's like, if anyone's ever played a certain sport, or anything, there's the way I put it, it's like, where you, where you, where you hit something well, and you know it's going in the top right corner of a goal, or you've hit drop goal, or something like that, and you know you're struggling with it well, so. Yeah. So, and, and look, and I also think it comes down to, and I certainly don't mean to make light of people who, who do you go to combat and who have taken light, who are affected by a guy, and I know, you know, special operations are certainly unemuted to that, but I do think, I do think it comes down to, over a few things, it comes down to the intensity and the investment in your training, right? If you're a young lad, you join the Army, donate with course, and you send up a season, well, that's gonna be a very different experience to a person who's already been in the wheelchair for 10 years, who's, who's gone through a significant training, and it is not only, you know, why it's just been in the wheelchair, but as soon as, pursue the special operations, you can go through a whole, another screening and, and, and put out, and selection, and training pipeline, so that, so that, you, the ability to withstand these instances increased because you've invested more into getting to that point, if that makes sense to you. And, and I'll firmly believe that would have come, so when they, when it comes to all trauma, you know, you get some acudent, I, you know, it leaves you out, leaves time at 16, joins you out, the Army, 8 a.m., all of a sudden, it's in the helmet flight for eight months, and you get to just like, look at all these dials, I, wait, that, that's in, that, you know, it was, it's investment, a few months of training. So there's a very, very, very distinct difference in firstly, the investment, someone has, all the right experiences leading up to that point. - Yeah, I mean, you've had to have volunteered so many points to be at that point, where you're taking that shot, you know, you volunteered for, you, you volunteered for forces, you volunteered for the parachute, you volunteered for the command, that was, you know, you, you could have left after your first tour, or, you know, you, you've stayed on. There's all these times where you're, you're going on, and I, I do think that's a, it's a very good point. So I, I want to kind of get, like, I don't want this to turn into a, a, a, a, a second version of your audiobook, which is available, or people and is linked down there, show notes. So, so let's go, let's, let's, let's go to the, let's go to the heli crash rate. Because obviously that was a, like, massive moment in your, in your, well, I was gonna say, service of your life. Can you talk us through the circumstances of how this came around? And then, and just, just, just, just whatever you want to say about it really, really. Yeah, sure, mate. So this was on the same rotation 2010. I was an astigletan. We'd been conducting a bunch of, a bunch of versatile operations. So that's, you know, theoretically, like, a day, which I don't know if it does. And then, you know, get there, you had down for a few hours and get up at my actual morning, you know, hop in a bird, go out and do a, a, a short slot clearance, very similar to what happened to my gauge, that fiber in, in northern Canada. And I think we'd been doing this throughout three or four nights straight. So everyone was pretty shattered, man. I think, I think this was our last, our second last job before we returned back home. So, you know, the, the, the novelty of being here and doing this for yet another trip and was, was, was, was rapidly, you know, declining and to just want to go home, their families and just have a break, right? So, um, so the, yeah. So we were on, we were in the lead aircraft and we were going to, you know, in black one, we were going to fly into overwatch, provide overwatch while the second and third aircraft landed and connected clearance. We were going in down to northern Canada. I was about three, two, eight in the morning. Um, the, the pilot, um, lost height awareness. And he said, oh, the inner combat was to horizon because the pilot showed our flying back then under what's called, what we call, red alloon. So there was no ambient light. She makes it very hard to operate night vision. I think, you know, for the entire coalition for ISAF, after tourism, tanning the became a, a notebook criteria or no-go criteria, if it was red alloon, sub-was an ambient light in the stars, moon to operate night vision because the risk was, was, it's said to be too high, but in two hours and turns, generally, there was an issue. Um, it was a 101st everyone, you wait 60, a black all. And, uh, yeah, that the lead pilots said I've lost to horizon. Uh, the, the chief loadmaster said, uh, we're going to be low, aren't we? And then the other pilots are to up, up, up, and being connected about 200 feet almost an hour. Um, the flat open deserts of northern Canada. Um, the second and third aircraft thought they were receiving grand wear for us. They conducted their basic pattern, uh, you know, flew off and realized that we're in the middle of nowhere and, um, holding, uh, four angel, which is the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the ISAF, the potentially even Australian code work for down aircraft. Um, more recollections were, I remember looking at the window and, and thinking we're a bit low, because I couldn't see the horizon. Then it's just, just, I don't remember too much after that. It was like being in a washing machine, you know, I remember being a very, very wild spinning. We all obviously suffered a lot of head injuries. I think from the time the nose hit the air, hit the desert floor to where the crash site was, it was nearly 150 meters. So there was a lot of the energy there, you know, in most northern memory, some of the aircraft that brought to the crash site. Obviously aircraft caught on fire, all the bullets started cooking off. Um, second and third aircraft landed. The boys moved in provided security. Um, yeah, all the routes were exploding. The silicy hazards from fuel. Um, you know, this body's ripped apart. Um, it's pitch black, three through in the morning. Um, the boys got the second, the seats of the second third aircraft. They just ripped the seats out and turned that into the AME bird, into the evacuation bird. There's no point waiting for their aircraft to come and come to our way. We already got black hooks here. So that's certainly saved a lot of the odds. Um, um, more recollections were, I remember lying on the ground and it's just feeling very, very intense pain. It just didn't go away. Um, I could smell fuel, I could smell, you know, um, things burning. I could smell a few. Um, I could see fire. There's people running around screaming. There's a lot of dust, a lot of noise. Uh, we'll see with all the head entries, you know, it was getting out of consciousness. The boys then threw me on an engine cowering, which they used as a makeshift stretcher. And she got into an evacuation bird. And I remember seeing, um, Ben, Chuck, lying right next to me. And there wasn't enough ribbon to helicopter because they threw all the casualties on there. And I remember trying to move to make room for Ben and someone's specifically, it was stuck in moving, it was all the school. That's fine injuries as well. But, you know, it may look, um, really, really sad day. Um, you know, we lost Ben, Chuck, to Nuplin and Scott Palmer, an American local master. Um, we had seven others that survived, um, you know, that, uh, all had pretty significant injuries. From there, we got evacuated to Candahar, and my one collapsed in Candahar, then I was out. And my next recollection is waking up and Germany at lunch to a military hospital, um, about four or five days later, with Adelican cheese and nobody was done. Um, yeah. Wait, when you come to, who's there to explain to you, what happened? Did they bring any of your, any of your, like, presuming your teeth, like your injured teeny made to with you? But, is there any, did they send other blocs who were not injured in the crash with you as well? So, to cut to kind of, you know, be with you for when you kind of come to and, you know, you did, they did, they did, they did, yeah, then it did, maybe, but there wasn't for another, for another day or so. Um, yeah, so, so we're not, we know I came to, there was, um, the unit did send the liaison off to London boys to let me know what happened, but, but I completely forgot that we had an assault team, on what was this to, to, as a, as additional security for the snorkel team for a team. So, um, when she said that there was, you know, four people killed, uh, I thought there was all my team, she told me it was, ended up being, that wasn't the case. But Sam, you know, know, if through period of time, they are thought that I was the only person that survived, you know, and it was killed with my teammates. So probably one of the last points in my life made here for that period of time. Yeah, I mean, I've never been in this kind of position of, you know, waking up in a hospital and stuff like, what is the, what is the procedures for you like in terms of getting your own, getting your treatment, but also while that's happening, how are you dealing with this waking up in a different fucking, well, almost on the other side of the world knowing that you've lost your brothers? My look at was ill-strapped, like it says, probably one of the last points in my life, you know, I don't think know where it was, there was a second confusion when she first told me that I was in helicopter crash, I didn't play that at all. Then I was hitting my knee, next all the number one scout, the recon team. So I suppose that number one ID catcher on my TV, you know, so I was convinced that someone's going to happen, it was going to be an illusional exon in an ID. So for me, mate, it was really a lot of confusion. I didn't understand well, my last recollection was driving the desert, oh, I got an action there being an outweigh. There's a lot of confusion. I was showing a lot of pain, it was a drive, it's a head injury. So, yeah, mate, the procedure was basically, you know, that they thought over the boys, the boys from the company, the notification teams were going around back in Australia, you know, we informed the families, the guys who were being killed in action and all our scars were wounded in action. Then the Army commenced to move, you know, so my next akin was, was my partner and my mum as well. So they flew, not as you my mum's next akin, but the next of the akin and my mum. And they flew, and they flew, then both over to Germany, they are spent a couple of days in Germany, then they are the Air Force, flew in a C-17, an AME bird, and they put us all on a C-7, they have flew stuck a C-8. I mean, we don't have to cover all of it, because I'm sure there's a lot to cover, but in terms of your road to recovery and get back to the units, what was the, were there options I kind of presented to you of, this is what we could do to get you back to service, or do you want to take this charge, or how did, how did all that side things go? Yeah, look, mate, it's, so back then, it was, it was fairly our cake, you know, in terms of, you had three medical investigations, it was like one is like you're done, two is, you're good to go, you need to wait, and one is like you are brave to go, you know, you're fully deployable. So back then, you know, even though, since I'm injuries, the main injury that I had was, I've got a broken inspection of spine, so I'm a spine fuse, and I've still got two plates and 10 screws, much less expire, given all the other, you know, because I'd meddled in my spine, they said there could not have never been deployed, so that was, you know, I didn't understand that because, you know, my own area of restrictions, when, was, was no land parachid, you know, I couldn't understand why, just because I couldn't parachid, or to land, what, couldn't, mate, time, my job, and do all the other things that isn't the one insertion method that I can't do, of thankfully, you know, a year or two after, I think, defense came around, they're importing all these new medical plastic, so they're completely overhauled of how they manage people, purely because we didn't have the experience in the Australian Army, and then so my new restriction was, you know, fully deployable, but no land parachid jumps, you know, amongst fellow things, so that's like cool, I'll just run, jump on the boat, you know, onto land, I'll just do water jumps and let's go, but the road to recovery was pretty long, mate, I, you know, obviously had more my physical rehab, you know, I got chronic addicted to my painkillers, to my endone, you know, so I'm not that, I was parting a lot, and I think I was just trying to process what was happening, you know, and, um, but for me, mate, the, the main thing I wanted to do was, I just found my job back, you know, I didn't understand why I was being ostracized and why, you know, I was being punished because I got meddling with Spiron, they just let me get back to the job, and anyway, I was in my honeymoon, in 2012, I got a phone call from the RS7, he said, hey mate, get ready, can you come back to one of the companies, you're good to go, the army's changed, it's review, and they've got a full review, we're never good to go, so, um, when that, I'm straight back onto the counteries and things, so the, so the, the, the second command of the regiments has promised you for a straight and offshore hostage rescue, for, obviously for Australian nationals, so in 2012, um, I went on straight out onto the domestic oxygen rescue team, and I think my first day on the tools was conducting live-fire aircraft recovery, so there was, there was a, there wasn't much of a room to get ready to go, I guess, you know, he's, he's, yeah, he's the MP for I would go, um, the M-line up that there was, um, it was also maybe sailing, I did 2012, I spent the year on, on the oxygen rescue team, and then it's 2013, I'll, I'll read a playback paper, I'll see. We, you, the only ones to get back, or was there any others? Yeah, so one of the guys, uh, he's currently still serving, but his injuries were too bad, so that he couldn't form a service and operator, but he's really valued adding the whole development space, so he still works in a background using his skills and, and make sure the boys are on the right kit, um, but in terms of deploying for capacity as an operator, I was out there, it was fortunate to have to do so, yeah. Um, what, like, so I mean, I kind of, I know the answer of the question, actually, so, but it's out, because from what you've already said, but, where you got that phone call, and then when you knew you were going out on operations again, like, how important would those moments for you, do you think in, um, I, I, I don't know if like, getting over the crashes, the right word, because, you know, you never get over really losing brothers or anything, not for that, you know, but for you personally, like, how important was it that you, that you were able to not, to, to not leave Afghanistan, would that be in the last time you said for, in the country? Yeah, correct question brother, I make very important, very, very important. I think that, um, I don't think I'll be the man I'm today sitting here right now with you, if I had not been as forwarded as opportunity to be asked to, um, excuse me, I think, my ability to, to, to have unfinished business, and I mean, they in some type of March, I was saying, so I'm going to get a take the flight back to the UK, but I'm just all going to be out, I feel like it was, it was, it was, it was cut short, it was so abrupt, um, and you know, there is, there is, there is, I'm sure there isn't a UK, you know, veterans, um, you know, elements of the veteran community almost turn into being some from welfare state, whether they become, you know, there's these, they've become victims, uh, I've done identity and I think that I wanted to make sure that I went back to F. Canada, first, because I love the job, and I wanted to get like a wall of walls still going, um, but secondly, mate, I want to do it as a matter of respect for the boys who were killed, I wanted to go out and talk to them. And that, that third deployment was it similar, similar kind of operations for the first two? No, it was very, very different, mate, I think, uh, it's so I decided that the wall was one of a go-on-oam soon. So I had everything I had to have an Afghan face and worked a lot with our Afghan SF partner force. Um, but you know, you know, we had a few gun fights here and there, but it certainly wasn't the extent of these previous rotations. And I think the main effort was, was retrograding, which is basically, you know, a clever way of saying this is pack up and leave, and bear it to me, that one. Um, guess the parent of the wall was one. You left, yeah, there was very last time that, uh, yeah, the Australian soldiers would, would fill the role in, uh, care brussel in the Ores Gunn-Plobberts. Um, how did you find working with partner forces, the, like, uh, we, we had dedicated guys who worked with the partner forces. Um, so I didn't have too much exposure to them, but, um, yeah, I think, uh, some are good, some are very experienced, but I think culturally they're very, very lazy. I'm putting them in my effort. Um, and I think they could have done a lot better for their own country to be honest with you. And they had that, all the help and support that we could possibly could have. I think for a lot of them, they just don't take advantage of it. You know, and I also think that, you know, we're definitely not getting too macro political. I think that, you know, the one thing that, you know, all these, all these officers that spend all these years going at war studies and war collage, one thing that Trot Dover's, was, was layer of democracy over a nation, tribal, in a tribal ruled area, just in work. And there's like a keepsail, I had this conversation with the mate the other day, who's an excellent officer, and I said, you know, you fuck spell this time. You know, at war studies and at war collage and do all these things and canner and surgeons school. I said, do you tell me what's that it's worked? Like, give me one example where it's worked. Like it actually hasn't worked once. Yeah, I'm ex-span. Anyway, I do I guess. Uh, yeah. So you, you were surprised by how things pound out in Africa. So I was absolutely not. Oh, cool. But mate, I never really point into the whole politics of it when I was out, I stink here, all this shoulder belt doing my job and I loved it. But look back now, you know, I just don't understand how, how, you know, this is an assassin, this is the whole fire wise, the whole ISAF, you know, as a whole. It's a very capable intelligent people, just, just how we got it so wrong, just so long, you know, a little fuckery thinking, you know, how do we think this was going to work? Do you work in Iraq? Has worked in Afghanistan? This, this sports democracy model under Western, you know, democratic ideologies, you know, in short, split, or military bureaucracy, I think, I think we need to find a different method, but like, this has fucking worked so far. Oh, well, you know, I'm a, if I just keep on armoring away, it'll work so time it seems to be the, you know, it always reminds me of like the sex pamphlet thing, it's like 60% of the time, it works. Exactly. (laughing) - Well, yeah, really even for a 60%. So let's go to then like, and you're, we're kind of like, I just wanna kind of quickly cover your final few years in the military, 'cause you didn't leave after the Afghans or you spent a little bit of a lot of work. So let's just wrap up on your kind of military career and then we'll get into kind of somebody, the veterans administration. - Yes, you're right. So after 2013, I went back to one of the companies and I think that the second commander of regiment, as it is now, which is a strange premier for supplication, we have, has promissive first domestic, like we'll do a action and I'll suggest you. There will still a lot of confusion about, who does what within the strange special approach when it comes to commandos and especially those servants' regiment. So I think that from 2014, 15 onwards was the experience of Afghanistan really built a foundation so whether you're gonna use now. So for me mate, I did a bunch of training exercises. We always seem to be away. 2014, I deployed to Operation Hayweek which was a strange contribution to MHC in the plane crash in the Netherlands. I didn't do too much there except just part of your name so the M-Waype you called me, which I never did so, I felt was a great trip. I'll have you to do more of those floppers again. I think I'd like to be a flash of engagement around the world mate, started to get into the whole personal security chapter which I really enjoyed, which is providing close protection to, to the Australian politicians in South Afghanistan and Iraq and really enjoyed the amount of agency and I told me that you had as a junior operator working in that space. The M-A and then I had 2014, 15, 16. I deployed to Iraq in 2016, seven, eight, seven months. I was there as a tank commander in my job was I had three companies of Iraqis to train in hostage rescue. So these guys have been fighting in Ramadi, in Fallujah and to a conventional operations for all these years and Iraqi, the South guys wanted to turn these guys into the Baghdad-based hostage rescue team. So I had a really challenging task of getting these guys who just happily just throwing grenades and were raved and explafes them, they can't do that anymore. But I really enjoyed that trip mate. The rest of the boys in that rotation and for next re-atations were based up in Mosul and were really, you know, really pivotal in fight to Mosul since it's already Iraqis. It was 16, 17, 18, 19, honestly, that the users fly by what I do after that. I did another rotation in 2016 on the counter-terrorism team. This time as a stopper, as as whether we call it a hostage rescue or a black-rolled stopper. So that was a really unique skill set, you know, working in and around. It's a really in population, you know, building information. In 2020, I came back on as an assault tank in Mahabat with a hostage rescue team. And then after that, I asked to get posted to the Defence Force School of Special Operations as an instructor. So it was my time to give back. So where I was the senior instructor for the Demolitions in Beech and Courses, the post-corder battle in the weapons course. So I really enjoyed those last few years mate. I ended up studying at the Demastra business through through Defence. And it was, you know, my way of ensuring that I think I knew those dumb men. Like I think that I knew I was ready to get out and been, you know, almost 21, 22 years. And I think my body, there particularly from the crash, the advice after the crash was, I shouldn't wear a backpack every again, 'cause it's gonna compress my spine. I then decided to bang in from the 13 years and they were right, but backspucked now, but still worth it. You know, the whole idea of not man-carrying, jumping, I think I've done a bit of 100 squad ops and so I got out, I jumped my squeak in, so they were wrong about that one too. So I was, you know, so, you know, I'll be all ready to enjoy the last few years. I really enjoyed my time as a senior instructor, training, screening, and the next bunch of guys coming through and I think I spoke to this about in my book mate, you know, about this pathological fear about getting out 'cause I did know who I was and it served a good to me one day that, you know, if I see guys on news bangin' in a different country that, you know, instead of, you know, having this massive phoamer, I can take shots in the fact that there's probably some guys there that I've trained. So, and that's my way of accepting more transition here. - Could also just go Mujahideen style mate, get out there yourself, you know, if you're sure you promise someone to sneak you in in a crate, you want to take. (laughing) Well now, mate, that's a great way of pointing it, you know, that like you're still, you're still involved by the training. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before, but I think it makes some sense. Out of all your service, anything you did what, 22 years, all together was it? - So, in 22 years, stretch of that, is it? - Yeah, so you covered a lot of bases. What was the pinnacle of it for you? - The pinnacle of it's me. Wow, there's really good questions, mate. You know, you get a fuck up at me for these, bro. - Yeah, okay. - What was the pinnacle of my last time in the army? I'm not trying to take the easy answer here, but I don't really think I could pin it down to one thing. I feel like if I identified one thing, I think about it as afterwards and kick myself and I mentioned the other thing, but I think I will say that just sort of to cap off all these thoughts that are coming in about to answer your question, I would say that I think they've been part of the growth of an organization from, you know, when I first got there to what it is now and playing one very small part of that growth, I think is something that gives me immense pride. You know, I think that the guys we have now and the regiment are some of the most talented, you know, T-LR operators and the planet and the reputation of the organization and the pathway for those guys to be there right now. That all stems from, you know, my era and the guys even before me, you know, it was those 40 day vehicle operations in the desert with nothing fucking happening. You just telling your Russians in a shit, you know, trying to up the time after time, but we're doing so people realize within the soft community that hang on, there's also a command of those guys and these guys that was driving open top, I know my people stood 35 days in hell, they're like your fuck, you know. And I think it was that recognition that it has sort of led to the reputation of regiment right now. Yeah, so probably that is, is it actually a part of my contribution in that space? - Claire, I was away. All right, so you kind of mentioned earlier that Australia was quite archaic in the way that it dealt with wounded veterans. I know Paul said exactly the same after his kind of shark attack and I, you know, it sounds like there was a lot of catching up going on in Australia compared to especially America, even the UK. I just want to give you kind of a broad stage here, it really made to kind of speak about the state of both the veteran landscape in Australia and the failure of veteran organizations to kind of meet the demands and the needs. - Yeah, yeah, thanks mate. Yeah, look, I think that definitely has been a steep learning curve in the Australian experience on how we treat veterans. I think that, I think that, you know, the Australian government and Australian defence were forced to mature very, very quickly into a modern war fighting organization and learning lessons really quickly. And I think that what happens to veterans afterwards almost become enough to a degree. So busy and so have we invested, as we all were in that during the war on terror that the small numbers of people that were sort of leading or injured were probably not given the consideration and the time that they should have. But I think that excuse is long expired now. I think that, you know, we have over 1500 ex-service organisations in this country, you know, yet the rate of veterans sort of side is still going up. And I think it's interesting too. We had a Royal Commission into Defence Symbition Symbition side, which I'm not quite sure if it did any more harm or more good in terms of the findings. But I think it comes down a few things, but I think it comes down to, you know, the Australian Defence Force is so heavy with offices or with, you know, star-ranked or flag-ranked officers, you know, being common or bringing it to your aircommodal. In to even example, you know, the US has one flag officer for every 1,200 non-lag officers or other ranks. The UK model, you guys, hope in better ratio, one to 1,500. Don't have to guess what the Australians, how many other ranks there are for one star-ranked officer in Australia, other guess? - Well, I'm going to go one of 600, 260. Right. So we have, we have one of the most. - Two out of two with you the 60. - Yeah, yep. - So we have one of the most top heavy officers structures, you know, in the Fire-Bys community. Look at, and look, I'm no fool, mate. I've spent a long time in Defence, so I know that a vast majority of the organisational structure and processes are made for officers by officers, right? I mean, the reasons why the TANES and companies have to show that the structures is so. To ensure the officer's career model from sub-Inaecamal or T-Inaecamal and so forth, right? So, there's nothing all that, right? There's always been officers, there's always been other ranks, but I think that, you know, particularly what's happened in Australia, and special operation experience with. Yeah, we had a broader inquiry into war crimes. We had, you know, entire two squadron, especially the service regiment that was disbanded. You know, guys, given this showing those, we had the Chief of Defence Force appear on National TV, saying that, you know, after an inquiry, a non-traumable inquiry, that's. wrong things were done and necessarily into being murdered and all these all this shit. And I think that I just would left a really bad taste there runs me out. You know, at the same time the Veterinal Landscape was hurting from a vast amount of people who were discharging and physical and mixed-helled issues. You had an organisation being in the partner elections upstairs that were grossly underpriced and inadequate to effectively deal with those numbers of discharges. You know, that necessary within an organisation or model the prior to our office's careers and career achievements rewarding you, you know, distinguished service medals and distinguished bars to crosses. And it's like, whenever I see a senior officer with some type of award I just think that's just whatever everyone you fucks gets at, you know. And so you have this ecosystem of the organisation being created to essentially foster offices career models while there is this, you know, while elements of this year's gasses are being grossly neglected with the fact that you've got people that are leaving in huge numbers. You've got elections of fair system that is grossly inadequate. And you've also got all these ex-service organisations that don't actually provide support to people that they need. So I almost created a bit of a perfect stall, you know, where inevitable happened, which was high amounts of civil society, systemic lack of trust in defence. And I think the effects of that are still playing out. I don't think we've quite gotten it right. You know, but within this rain experience, you know, a whole bunch of your ex-service organisations instead of being full of people who have true altruistic intention to want to help help other veterans, it becomes a way for officers to network in their post-service career to get themselves better jobs and network for this million jobs. You know, so, so you can say, now I'm not saying this is the 100% of the case all the time on being really general here for sake of brevity. But I'll be happy to argue that anyone who had a calendar, if you had the correct platform and so on, but I can say right now, you know, I've been working in this space and invested in this space. I can say that I think the way that veterans were treated, you know, within strange visual operations command was a porno. I think that the complete abdication of all responsibility by officers and pulling the things at the workforce of the coal phase had been most the heavy lifting for those people to get their rewards and citations. I think it was also, it was also disgusting and I think the effects are still playing out. So the Dispandor Unit did all the officer chain who were overseen out. Did they all hand back the awards and ranks and everything that they gained from the back of those deployments? No, so obviously public pressure, I think there were some people that were removed their rewards, but the people in key positions, whenever stripped of their worth and citations, that's just I think it's become, and this would think about platforms like this, the days of listening to mainstream media is only sourced and used, is done now, made through podcasts and other mediums that, you know, every single person regardless who they are, heavy ability to reach a wide audience. So I think that a lot of the shit that defends in governments have done at the past, so there's can't get away with any more, you know. I think it's pretty well known that there is distinct amount of like a trust in mainstream media right now, whether it's you're talking about the political spectrum or what's going on in the UK, whenever you have someone that stands up and says, "Hey, we need to have a look at migration here all of a sudden if I should send an advice," and I'll be right, let's just insane right. So I think that the platforms like this may have really important. How is it like, because I'm sure I'm not the only kind of Brit or American, or maybe even other nationalities listening, who finds it like almost mind bogging, because whenever I think of, I mean my views on Australia have definitely been shook a lot in the last five years, right? There's the government stuff on one side, but like just keeping it focused on veterans, you know, that one of the things I've always kind of admired Australia is the reverence that there is for the for the Anzacs. An Anzacs they seems to almost are old like religiousism the right word, but that kind of a mass that's significant is beyond the day. And when I heard about how they were going after veterans and stuff in Australia, it really kind of like, it took me by surprise to be honest, because I just felt like the relationship between the nation and the troops was one of kind of unwavering's book. And I don't want to say that any army is beyond wrong doing it. I've seen people doing things wrong myself, and I still hold a British army in very high regard. So it's not to say that whatever our troops do is right, and mistakes can never be made, and actions are always justified in things. But it seemed to be that there was not just a willingness to look into these things, but when someone's almost already decided what the conclusion's going to be, and then, you know, if it's like the old witch trials kind of things, right? It's like, well, don't care in the war, and if she drives, she's in a certain, if she lives, she's a witch kind of thing. But one way or another, one way or another, we've decided that this person is fucked. And that for looking from the outside, it kind of felt that that's the way that they were going after, obviously we see it in the UK a bit with Northern Ireland veterans as well, they've just re-opening all of that shit again. I kind of waffle it here mate, I definitely am waffle him, but I guess it's what, did you use you? Did you guys see that come in or was this as much and much off to Europe there as it was for us over here? Look, look, look, I suppose I just want to say that, you know, maintain here, you know, to be there, you know, all victims, you know, all veterans of victims, and the officers, the ones that put, like, that's generally not my narrative right, and I just realized that probably how it comes across, I just, I think, you know, broadcasts up a dandals, suit them, they'll go into one right. So, I'll say this right, I'll say that, that I think, I think veterans themselves or themselves need to take some ownership here, right? I think that, you know, the Australian government has to recognise the term veteran as to the A1 who served one day or four times service is now a veteran, right? So, if you did one day of basic training, you're only across the line as a veteran and you can apply for entitlements with the Department of Veterans Affairs, I think that was a catastrophic failure, they just opened up the floodgates and they created this welfare state for veterans, right? Now, I think that, you know, in how we treat veterans, there needs to be an element. This whole egalitarian approach where everyone's a veteran, everyone's done the same thing. Yeah, that just doesn't fucking flow with me. If you spent six months away from your family and you were in the audience core and you were working in the desert in the hot warehouse, but, you know, 12 hour shifts for six months, making sure that we all had our stores in the front line. Hey, that's fucking awesome. I'm like, that's a shit job and you've worked hard, you spent six months away from your family and you provided valuable service. You had a key function, it wasn't kicking indoors, but if it wasn't for you, we couldn't do that. So, I make sense, I think everyone deserves recognition for their contribution to what they do, staying time-waves in their family. But what I outright refuse to acknowledge is that that person's service in terms of risk, whether it be physical or psychological risk, comes anywhere close to the device that were actually on the ground, who were being shot at, who were exposed to risk. I don't talk in real risk, you know, every single day. And I think that the dissolving of the warrior culture and Australia were the sake of a egalitarian culture where everyone is viewed as one. After the worst finish, when we're not actually doing anything, I think it's been a catastrophic misjudgment by the Australian government. You know, second to that, I will say that I have a disdain for most veterans, you know, in Australia or other way because because the whole idea that a veteran is just fit upstanding gentlemen who serve his country and is seen suffer the horrors of war on cycle. Okay, let's be fucking honesty people, right? The average 23-year-old paramedic sees wayward shit every single week on the streets in the back of Randall's and 99% of veterans ever have. Yes, the experience of a veteran of a South South operator at Afghanistan, that small period of time in his life on that three-four-month chip, you know, three-four-month deployment a couple times in his life may have been more intense. And I'm certainly not saying that, you know, treating someone in downtown London as the same as being shot by a Taliban, but it's all going to be trauma and who deserves what? Why, why veterans are ones that I feel so entwined? Why is there an entire department veteran, government department, dedicated to veterans? Why is there not one for me for first respondents who arguably provide more function and more security to our family back home? And the whole idea that we're Afghanistan, protecting our country, eh, yeah, okay, maybe in some third proxy way, that comes to diplomacy, national security, good relationships, but I do want to think that some fluctuity or as young province was going to be conducting an assault in downtown Sydney. I don't think anyone did right, but our first responders were amongst every day, you know, so I'm not too really the one-winter response made, but I just wanted to around this part of the chat, I was saying that, yes, I think there are systemic failures, and I think that how what Australia has done is probably not ideal, but also blame veteran what themselves make, you know, this being a victim and being this, you know, on it a DBA handout and what can I get from DBA? It's like why do you take some fucking agency over your own life and career? And before you're transitioning from the fans, what have you done to prepare yourself? You're an adult. What have you done? Have you studied it? It looks for a job? Have you future-proofed yourself on your post-serviced life or do you just want to tell fucking war stories to keep your handouts the next 20 years? And I think you're the great mate. I'm sure the experience in the each back is very similar to some degree. There are a lot of people who have to be happily play a victim, but don't take it and start to be with their own actions. You're a fucking soldier in Australia, but you're a soldier in the fucking British army. What are you doing to help yourself? So I think that it is an all point in the finger at the organisation. I think this can be a complex issue, and it requires a holistic solution. It isn't just simply governments do better. Yeah, I think government should do better. I also think that expecting governments to do better is, you know, I'd love prime 1990s, Pablo Anderson to walk in this office right now. It ain't got happened, you know. It's and I think just expecting anything like that. And I think it's, I think, and a lot of it is done this way should be, like I said, you got to help yourself and you've got to help each other. You know, it's the old nobody's come to save you. You've got to do it yourselves. And I think there is a lot of that kind of going on. I just want to come back to this idea of defining what's made the veterans, what makes a veteran, because I do think like that definition, I do feel as definitely shifted in my lifetime. I used to think of veterans being like, if you served in the Second World War, you were kind of a veteran. And I actually read a book by a First World War soldier recently. And this bloke, this bloke was talking about, I've read Second World War guy saying the same thing, that they felt weird being called veterans because they're like, "Well, yeah, I only did four years. Now that four years might have been the First World War, the Second World War." But they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah." Yeah, so it's like, yeah, you did four years me. You also went over the top fucking 30 times. But they'd be like, "I don't feel right being called a veteran because in my day a veteran was a guy who'd done 30 years with the colors." So there's definitely a change in the thing. I've got to say, the idea that if someone did one day of basically training their veteran, I do feel that as mental. Yeah, it is. Your state of mind, your operating system, the way that you work as a human being has not changed after one day of being in a veteran. No, no, no, absolutely right. Yeah, it has absolutely right. I think that was a pretty serious circulation in the government of how they'd disnake veterans. And I have these flooded. I don't know, of course, well enough of that. They had a flurry of claims, veterans affairs, the thousands of claims, the Royal Commission pointed at the finger and the department of veterans affairs and said, "There's a special seat back, well, Alan, how do you have more people that apply for DBA years after they're around the amateur before they're shot that we did in the heart of the war on terror?" Like, "That's a fuck, does that work? I think I've never been." Yeah, that's a bizarre one, mate. Anything else you want to say about me before we kind of move on to the next moment? No, I think I've said enough, mate. All right, mate. Well, what I'll be going to ask you there is the reasons behind writing the book. What was the kind of driving force? My book, I suppose, firstly, I never intended this to come out as a book. I was always interested in journaling and writing things down and I had a whole bunch of stories that never went anywhere. We're not transitioning to defense, so I thought, maybe I'll go out some of these stories and see what I've got in like both scenes have started. I started then I get bored and could do that touch. But what I found was this collection of stories that started to come together and I started writing, I reached out to a friend of mine, a journalist, and I said, "I have a thing, it says you've got Mary, call me in touch with published showing." And for the published run, cool bit. The main reason was, I think, that so many books in an military genre that I've read, I just didn't really like them. They were all this self-grandosing, self-inflating book about how they did nothing wrong and they were switched off right. This is mainly the Americans. Americans are fucking horrendous in this. So, Americans do better if you're not all in the war yourselves. Look, some interviews from the sheriff of Baghdad and Tim Kennedy. I just don't understand how all these years these people got away with this shit. Because two minutes to listen to this person just seeing this guy's absolute fucking blog. So, a lot of these books I read and made, I just didn't like. I sit there and read a chapter and it's like, this guy is absolutely kidding himself. There's no way this is true. What is it actually like? And a lot of them became really super slow. We went there and we did this. But what I've never got from a book was, what was it actually like? How would you feel? And particularly in the special operations genre, all these guys, it's like, I'm reading these books like Holy Shit, it's quite a 25 years in the army. Never made a mistake. If that's true, it's the only person that I've met because I've made a career out of fucking up. So, I want to give a read of the real experience, about what it's like and to portray the people that, you know, if there is people with a rare people rather than, I think, in particular, experience special operations. I think you are doing them in the service by making yourself sound like this. It's super hero, archetype. It was never done anything wrong. It's a smartest and fittest. That's just isn't the case. I've never been the smartest of fittest. I just really wanted to do this job and I was lucky enough to get a chance to do it. So, I wanted to make sure that the book was authentic. I think language was important too. There's some books about Australian solvents. There's not one swear word. Now, you'll ask anyone when it comes to Aussies, they have a new poem, you know, what their language is like. It's, you know, foul language is part of the business, right? A particular is their usual solvents. So, I read these books to have this clean, polished language. I was just didn't buy it because I didn't see them authentic to me. And, you know, it was my experience. So, I wasn't designed to be a shootbook, but I wanted to give a read of what it's like where the army on 9/11 and spending a train to an art few, doing a job that they love. It was more important in the order to highlight the remarkable organisation that I spent most of my career in Bennett's second command over. I think the story of growth is an organisation who is a stable industrialist every turn that's grown into, you know, by the worlds, it's a very premier year of direct action, hostage rescue special operations. Yeah, so I think it's remarkable. And I was very privileged to play a small part of that. So, I wanted to make sure that this book served as the first contemporary book by an operator. You know, I'm not an officer. So, we call officers tourists because they do two years in a trip. They go out of their career. Whereas, you know, we are the stakeholders. We spend a lifetime in those troops. We're interested to use throughout taking the box in our career off the create part. So, this is the first book by a senior NCO from the regiment. He's not an officer. He's not a support staff member. Someone who just spent seven years in the cold phase. So, that's the other part I want to make sure that I'm not in the audience. Yeah, I think there's a really little bit of importance in this history of events which are important for like, you know, we had that quote from the the, what's the name? Heracles, was it? Or have you ever bought a set? Heracles, three thousand years ago. And it's important to know what the battles were and where they were happened. But I totally agree with you, mate. I think there's a massive importance in knowing what, to me, it doesn't matter if there was a battle three thousand years ago. If I don't know anything about, it was involved. Who were the blocs? What were they like? And I think we need books like that. And I think we need them to be raw and written as it was. You know, the quote on quote, "Water and all the comments made." Did you have been from the commandal regiment? Did you have difficulties with getting that through like, or I guess did you have challenges officially that were trying to try to change what you were saying and how you were saying it? No, mate. Maybe just like I said, I know what I can say and what I can't say. So there was nothing that I'd be taking out because I didn't get anything that shouldn't be doing the first place. So I think the editing process was from defence, was basically ensuring there was nothing classified revealed with serism. Elements that I could have explained in detail are made in a really general. And for the average reader, it's not a military person. More acronyms and more concepts don't really add to the story. So I tried to keep it as possible. I'm a bit immutable. There's how much acronyms in their line. But defence did that. I wanted to make sure that I bought defence in the journey. This books a good news story. I'm not saying I'm a victim, I'm not blaming you, I'm simply telling my story. And I look back on service with nothing but fond memories. So in that sense, I think this is a book that could be used by defence. The azure recruiting tool will not necessarily as there's another winging victim fiction talk about how it was hard done, but I would certainly not want to tell you. So do you think when these books have that kind of like polished language and stuff that you're talking about, no mistakes or that? You think that that's more of a, that's coming more from the person's choice. it's not down to pressure. It's not down to to be entitled by outside agencies that this is how you have to portray yourself. It's a choice. Well look, I think firstly, I've these books I've written by Gerstrodders, which basically means that I sit there with a beer at, yeah, I sit there with a beer and someone else watch the story, so it's really hard to communicate your authentic self in someone else watch your book. So I wanted to make sure that one was not Gerstwritten, I want you to write myself. That's the only way I could take complete ownership of agency over language. And I think a lot of the times people get influenced into changing the language in the diary to suit the audience, but you're writing a memoir. Who is a subject matter expert on you? It's you. Yeah, hey, look, if you'd have a time of capacity, you can certainly, it's someone to help you put the words together, which is fine, nothing against that. But in my experience, speaking of people who use a Gerstrodder, an element of authenticity dissipates with the Gerstrodder. You know, some of us have managed to do it, but that's stunning. I'd not want to risk myself. Yeah, I totally agree with you. So I guess, well, before I ask the final question, mate, is there anything that we haven't touched on that you'd like to put in? No, no, I'm pretty happy, mate. All right, so last question, would you do it all again? 100% mate, absolutely. I'm a strong advocate into, like I'm on 41 years of, I'm telling 42 this year, there's, I see books and seminars and Brazilians all the time. I don't think Brazilians are something you can learn from reading a book or attending a seminar. I think that you have to go through tough times, I come out the other side, you know, as the same goes, you find yourself really, you find yourself in hell, keep going. But I think that on the other side, you'll find you're a better person. And I think that comes down to whether it's in the military context around life, I think that it's very easy to get down, but there is always another side to it. And the reason I don't regret anything, mate, is because I am who I am to hate my experience, it's a good, the bad, the fucking ugly. I was to say there were regrets, something I could change back time and do it differently, I wouldn't be here right now. So I really have zero regrets, mate. And I look at my theory, we did nothing but one memory. So I mean, would I look at my friends, to not die, all of course, right? I mean, there's this that an odd idea, but I think that, you know, constantly looking back, I think means that you have to take a step forward in the right direction. So I have nothing that's one memory, mate, and I'll see you over at RETS. [MUSIC]