War Is a Feminist Issue

when it comes to women's rights and when it comes to this, you know, the what aboutery is just a way of telling you that what you're saying is not important and it doesn't deserve the air time. And I disagree with that. (upbeat music) ♪ I had enough ♪ This is Unladylike, I'm Kristen. The moment I knew I wanted to invite today's guest, Alina Abirafa, on the podcast, was when I read a piece of hers over on Medium, Alinaabirafa.medium.com. It was a piece that she published in November of last year, headlined the War of You from Beirut. She writes, "I'm an Arab, I'm an American, I'm a Palestinian, I'm a Lebanese. I was raised first in Saudi Arabia and then in Washington, D.C. I am of mixed religions practicing none." Here's how I've spent my nearly 49 years, 13 years in the Middle East, plus 18 years in the U.S., plus 18 years across 10 different countries in West and Central Africa, Papua New Guinea, Afghanistan, and a few others. Lina's career began in the early 2000s in Afghanistan as the country director for Women for Women International. From 2015 to 2022, Lina was executive director of the Arab Institute for Women. And in 2023, she published her latest book, "Yala Feminists, Arab Rights and Resistance." Lina goes on to write about her experience cleaning up the messes of war. I've worked in these wars, men's wars, where women and children are the ones who are trampled on. And on ladies, this right here, these wars, all of them are feminist issues, conflict, violence, occupation, all have a more profound impact on women and girls. I've seen this firsthand in too many places. That's what I wanted to know more about from Lina. So my name is Lina Abarafi. I am a feminist, activist, author, speaker, advisor, and more than anything else of a woman who's committed to building a better world for women. Because if we had the kind of world that I thought we deserved, I'd be doing something else. I don't know what that would be, actually, because I never really thought about cultivating any other skills, because we are so fundamentally unequal. So I think to rectify that imbalance that I saw from a very young age, I felt that sense of inequality, of injustice, as a girl. And I think being born into a female body and recognizing those inequalities, even the way I couldn't put words to them, I think that drove me to kind of build the vocabulary for the emotions that I had, for the feelings that I had of anger. And I still, I mean, we're talking about decades now, same work, no progress is at regress, if we're honest. Still feel that anger. You know, an anger for me is such a driver, because I believe in the constructive power of it, to fix the things that are fundamentally broken. And frankly, just should not be. And what are some of those things that are fundamentally broken? And the fact that women's lives and voices and choices are less than at every single stage, you know, I say that inequality is visible from the fetus to the funeral, right? I mean, I remember my first protest outside of Planned Parenthood, I was 15. And now I'm almost 50. I mean, what now? Like, that for me is nuts. I just can't believe that we have failed to resolve this one thing. I want to be hopeful and I struggle for every scrap of hope that I can find, but the global landscape is disheartening. You know, you look at global indicators of how many generations it's going to take for us to close the gender gap to achieve equality. Is it like 150 years according to one source? It was at 300, according to another? Well, you know, I don't know how much K.O.I need to consume in order to maintain my life up until that point, to be able to witness this moment so I can die a contented death knowing that we finally got there. I wanted to ask you about a motto of yours. Start where you stand. I wanted to know what inspired that motto and what it means. Well, you know, it's a great story and I can't take credit for this beautiful motto because it landed in front of my face quite literally in the form of street art in Kathmandu, Nepal, following the earthquake in 2015. So I've been doing emergency response work, war zones and natural disasters day after decade, working on sexual violence, which has got to be already working in a conflict or natural disaster is a business of human misery. And it is a horrible thing to have to do and to bear witness to and to try and help knowing that you are virtually powerless to it. You know, it is overwhelming. And so that sense of like despondency and despair or paralysis, you know, no matter how much you do, you will never do enough. Then also kind of coming across this bit of graffiti one quiet morning at 5 a.m. when I was walking to the office in Kathmandu and it was it was quite freshly painted. So it was clearly in response to the earthquake. And I thought this is a really magical message. Like what a what an interesting thing to see. I spray painted on this wall. And for me what it means is to basically do whatever you can with whatever you've got. You know, you're not going to stop it. You're not going to fix it. You're not going to save it. You're not going to you're not going to do any of those great things that you'd like. You know, would I like to never have to do this and see this again? Absolutely. But have I succeeded in ending sexual violence anywhere that I've been? Absolutely not. So, you know, with that in mind, the idea of making small changes in the spaces that you occupy. I keep saying you don't have to go far to do good. And I think that is really what I mean. That idea of you, there are things you can do. And they might seem like small things, but the cumulative effect of those small things is not small. And those small things are also contagious. You know, I feel like there's a lot of power in that. And for me, you know, somebody who really felt cold, could do something, some big thing about sexual violence, you know, violence against women, inequalities. What those are unattainable things. You know, I want to live in a world where we don't have to do this anymore, but we're not there yet. And at least that gave me some comfort in knowing that even if I'm never, ever as effective as I want to be, it's better than doing nothing at all. And paralysis is not a response. Shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "Well, I can't fix this, so why should I start?" Is not a response. Like, what space do you occupy where you can exert influence? Is it your home with your family? Is it your peer group or your friends? Is it your workplace? Is it your school? Is it your community? You are never powerless. I think is the message there. Like, you don't have to go off to a war zone to do it. You don't have to go to Afghanistan or to Mali or whatever. Like, you can be a couch crusader. You know, you can do it from home. But do it. However you do it, just do it. Talk to me a little bit more to about what just doing it also means in relationship to a massive issue, like violence against women, gender-based violence in war and conflict. Because it feels, to even I'm sitting here and like, I'm already losing my words trying to, because it's so overwhelming. Absolutely. I mean, the first thing you can do is to actually care about it. And to understand that this isn't about other people over there, you know, other women and other stories that are never going to affect you. Like, it will affect you. In a way, we all have a responsibility to each other to understand these issues and what's going on and the pain that people are experiencing because we're not immune to that. You know, I think that level of empathy is a great start. Awareness, you know, you understand what's going on. You're paying attention. Information. Know the story. Listen to people who are on the ground telling their stories, reporting on the stories. You know, they are the sources. Take those stories and amplify them. So if you're able to give, like we say, time, talent or treasure, you know, that's extraordinary. Not everybody's able to do those things, but at a very minimum, caring and learning, I think is already a great step forward because far too many people don't, don't even do that. Back in February, you wrote, "Palestine is a litmus test of our feminist commitment to all women and girls everywhere without exception. So far, it rings rather hollow. So I wanted to break that down and first ask why is Palestine this litmus test? You know, there's been throughout history in like Western liberal sort of lefty thinking, this idea of yeah, all of we take all of that. We love all of you except Palestine. Like, Palestine has always been like, well, wait a second. Like, let's talk about this. Let, you know, there's they bring in questions. They bring in counters. They that seems to be the one except, you know, people will take on the causes of every underdog, every sort of oppressed people who are fighting for freedom and liberation, everyone everywhere except for this one. Why? I mean, as a half Palestinian, you know, I grew up mostly in the States being told, look, just don't say Palestine because people don't get it and it's too confusing. Like, just say Lebanon, my other half because it's easier for people to understand because if I say Lebanon, you're not going to counter that with like, wait a minute. What do you mean? Like Lebanon, what there's no, is there Lebanon? Like, what does that mean? No, Lebanon is a place on a map with borders like for whatever you think of Lebanon, it exists and it's not, it's not a predabit. When I say Palestine, I'm met with at least when I was a kid, I'd be met with two reactions. Either, oh, Pakistan? No, not at all. Or I'd be met with questions like a scratching of the chin. Like, wait, you mean Israel? No. You mean Jordan? No. You mean what Palestinians? Like, wait, you mean, what do you mean? No, that doesn't mean it. Then I'd have to, it's as if I have to justify my own existence, the existence of this population, the existence of these people, the existence of this land and their rights to it that have clearly been under dispute while every other cause of human rights and justice and liberation and freedom is always met by the activist populations with yes and bravo when we're fighting for you, Ukraine, yes, you know, free the people of Ukraine from the oppressive Russian Senate were waving our Ukrainian flags or whatever country or whatever cause we've taken up. We love to like pick up each other's causes and support whatever we think is is right and just and good and fair and equal and in favor of human dignity and peace and for and yet there's always a little like yeah, but okay, accept, accept, accept, pal, not palestine and I find that to be a fascinating disturbing exception to all of our human rights principles and we've seen it also now, I mean, now more than ever with people who still support autonomy and rights and freedoms for everybody else except for this group of people and same for human rights groups, women's rights groups who've said, you know, we will tamp you in every every downtrodden individual except for this group, you know, there is silence or there is like exceptions like yeah, okay, but you know, it's complicated or it's not really like that or you know, you're not seeing the full picture or the histories were the complex and you know, we can't get involved. No, I mean, nobody has full understanding of the history of other causes, but they have gotten they have thrown all their weight and just bandwagoning like everyone gets super excited about all the really do you have full information on any other causes of of social justice and I know you never do unless you are part of that population group, you really don't, but you care enough about people to not see them massacred in a genocide that I mean, what we are saying, it is baffling to me that we need to continue you know, as somebody has said to audition for empathy, to expose these crimes, to video or victimization, to document our massacre over and over and over and still people are like, yeah, but you know, I don't know maybe I wasn't really how it was. No, why are Palestinian deaths okay? Why is the rape of every other woman from every other place an egregious violation of human rights, but with Palestinian women, it's okay. Why is the mass murder of any why it is everybody get upset about everything, but this is yeah, but you know, the right to exist, the right to resist, the right to protect, the right to defend and you know, everyone gives me all sorts of, and I just that for me is it's like we're all we're losing the the plot. We're missing a key piece of the storyline and why? You know, this for me has been the hardest question to answer. What is the root of all of that that deliberate ignorance apathy, you know, that collective shoulder shrugging like yeah, but you know, it's always been complicated. Let them sort it out. Have you heard about mix hers, not mix his mix hers, the nutritional supplement that's here to help out with hormones. I have a mixers for libido in passion fruit. I have mixers metabolic balance in the delicious flavor of orange cream and last but not least, I have the mixers that I need most at the moment and that's her time PMS. If you're not sure which mixers is right for you, take their quiz to ensure you get matched with products designed for your unique wellness goals. Join the thousands of women who have discovered feel good freedom through balanced hormones. Head to mix hers.com/unladylike and use promo code unladylike at checkout for an additional 10% off your order. Mixers rarely gives discounts so 10% is the best offer you'll find. So remember to use my promo code unladylike for an additional 10% off. What does it say to you that sexual violence as we know can be a direct tool of warfare and also a rationale for inciting warfare. If that makes sense. Like how it feels like such a trap and also let me add to make it even worse, a coping mechanism in the aftermath of warfare. I mean women's bodies are never safe but they are least safe in those kinds of contexts. So all of a sudden the idea of rape as a weapon of war, rape to ignite a war or rape to justify a war. That comes from the Lord's email, politicians who are looking for excuses to say you know even our women have been victims and we must rise up and defend our women. You know this is just the language of the patriarchy here using their war weapons as if that is solving the problem for us. When that really makes things worse for us. So to instrumentalize feminist language and concerns as if you care about them to justify further violence that will then in turn cause women and girls greater suffering and increase sexual violence. To me is just a convoluted way of thinking that only men with war toys can conjure up. You know this idea of like let us go to war to defend our women. Oh please you just want to excuse me you do not give a shit about your women or any women is what I believe. So the idea that this justifies a war or further violence for me is pure manipulation. It is using this crime to justify an even greater crime that will then cause further suffering on women. And then the idea that these kinds of forms of violence rape and even intimate partner violence you know just not end when the violence ends like the men sign their peace agreement at the table. Women are usually left out of it. Everybody seems to be pleased with that. But the violence doesn't end for women. Sexual violence continues. Intimate partner violence continues in the longer term as part of a coping mechanism with all of the chaos and lawlessness and disorder and and loss that has been created as a result of the crisis. So it goes on it just takes on different forms. So the idea that women's bodies are suddenly made safe is the biggest lie. From your experience you know in so many countries and regions and conflicts is this a feature or a bug in war it's becoming a feature. I mean when you ask is it a feature like sexual violence is becoming you know this is it is a big deal it is increasing. civilian casualties are increasing. The way war is fought as become brave. very different. It's not like guys with guns meeting on the battlefield and going home for the night. So, you know, it is impacting all civilians and specifically those who are most vulnerable. So, you know, that is becoming a key feature. But also the idea of sexual violence as a part of modern, so-called modern warfare is absolutely an increasing feature. And again, as I said, used to justify further violence. It's in the interest of justifying the violence that you wanted to inflict to anyway. And that was the case with, you know, Israel and Palestine and the perfect sort of tipping point to get broad-based buy-in to say, "Oh my God, they're human animals. You gotta get them. You gotta finish them." They raped our women, finished that. I mean, it makes it very easy then for people to get behind a call like that. Was that also weaponizing white feminism to justify war? Absolutely. I mean, this idea that like, white feminism, I think, really reared an ugly head. You know, I think it exposed itself with this cause and this case. Because we've now seen what, you know, what I know we always knew. But, you know, I really wanted to see feminism beyond colors and divisions. But I just, I don't think it's true. I think there's an inherent racism. And I have seen it so blatant in the, in what has been taken up as a cause and what has been believed to be a crime and what is okay and acceptable and part of collateral damage. And when that damage is waged on the bodies of brown and black women, it is viewed as part of the process. And because Israelis are viewed as white, it is seen as a crime. It is seen as a human rights violation. It is seen as something that must be met with the full force of a response. And that double standard is like it's, it's just impossible to miss. I mean, I, as somebody who is a feminist from very early days who has fought and advocated and, and spent life years and shed tears over causes that are not mine. I'm not Afghan and not from Congo. I'm not from Central African or I'm not Haitian. I'm not those things. But I have loved and cared for and done whatever I can to contribute to those countries and causes and, and to those women and girls. And I did not know, no one told me when I started this work decades ago that I would be the exception. Well, your heart can bleed for everybody. But you know, when it's your turn and you're the victim, you know, it's just, it's not you. We're just, we're not going to, we're not going to back you. It's everybody but you. Like if I had understood that from the early days, you know, I mean, I think that's really disenheartening to see that we are not what we thought we were. This global movement that genuinely cares about other women's and lives and realities and bodies that don't necessarily look like us. That's not true. It's not true. And I hate that. And I think for me, this is like, it is something I wish I didn't have to face because after decades of doing this work and wanting to believe in sort of global, you know, it sounds naive. You know, in something that looks like a global feminism, feminism's plural, after having fought for the rights of so many women who are not me for so long, you know, I wanted, I wanted people to rally behind us too and they didn't. Where do you think as well, this kind of white feminist tendency to say that if you speak out in support of Palestinians that you are thereby dehumanizing Israeli women, like it just feels like creating this sort of again, like almost like a trap where you have to say it like clicks in this like what about is and what about this, what about that, what about, you know, where nothing really gets through. When there is a certain population that you'd like to speak about, whether you are part of that population or not, you know, you have a right to that space to be able to say, wait a minute, like I can fold empathy for all of these groups and all of these issues, but right now I'm speaking about this and grant me the grace and the respect to be able to do that. I think it is just people trying to sidetrack you, take the spotlight away and delegitimize your concern for this particular population group I trying to water it down. And it happens so much in the women's rights space, I find it's so interesting, like taking it out of any other space, you know, let's say I worked on animal rights and I was a specialist on lions. Not to be flippant about this, but you know, let's play along with this thought experiment. You would not spend all your time asking me why I don't care about tigers and bears. You would just respect that I know lions, this is what I work on, I'm concerned about the plight of lions, I have worked them for decades, here's what's going here, there are issues, let's just talk about lions for five minutes. To come in and say, yeah, but tigers, yeah, but bears, yeah, but hand does, yeah, but giraffes is not what you would do because you would actually understand, oh, this person has something to say about this and maybe I should just listen to this for five minutes. While also recognizing that, you know, we can hold space for all the creatures at the same time. And that might not be the best example, but I think it's, you know, it's simple enough to be clear. And then it tries to accuse you of not caring about other issues, meaning it's going to paint you in this, it's going to delegitimize your voice and your platform because you are this horrible person who not only doesn't care about tigers and bears, if we continue to play out that, but also hates, actively hates and opposes the existence of tigers and bears. And therefore you will be condemned. You know, is that simple and stupid to me? The idea that, you know, I would post about Palestinian people, I can't be given to anything about Afghanistan. I said, well, you know, okay, I did like two weeks ago, but, you know, yeah, okay, yeah, Afghanistan. Oh, and what about Sudan? Yeah, yeah, that too. And what about this and what about, you know, what about it's going on in America? Yes, yes, also. I mean, yes, and, you know, and I find it to be such a, like, it's a cheap shot. Once I try and ignore it, has media coverage also played a role in the US in terms of whose, you know, if we're talking specifically about women, kind of whose pain is being made aware of and, you know, kind of worthy of, I guess, coverage and care. There is a hierarchy of pain, absolutely. I mean, and there is racism underlying that hierarchy. We care about Ukrainian women's pain more than we care about Haitian women's pain or Sudanese women's pain. And in this case, we care about Israeli women's pain more than we care about Palestinian women's pain. So absolutely, I mean, there is a danger in that hierarchy. And I think we are seeing it play out in real time in ways that we can no longer dispute or deny. And that for me is very concerning because, you know, we've got a lot of work to do as activists, as human, you know, supposed human rights actors, as feminists, as humans. You know, we're doing a shitty job as humans. That's, that's really all I got to say. Like I am looking for the scraps of micro hopes that, you know, blinking you miss them, right? I mean, they are tiny, but overall, our report card as humanity, like I would give us a very low grade. Are there spaces, especially feminist spaces that are responding in an intersectional way that gives you hope? Young people, the younger generation, I mean, everything from the encampments here to protest on the street and other parts of the world where young people are standing up for themselves and for each other. You know, look at the encampment. I mean, that was a beautiful example. It wasn't all Palestinians there. Probably, the Palestinians were probably the minority. It was everybody else of all religions, all faiths, all colors, all persuasions, all whatever, coming together to say, you know, we're just going to sit here together and hold space for each other and for this cause because we're just not accepting this anymore. And that for me is beautiful. I mean, the courage that they demonstrated and the risks that they took to do that, that wasn't just like a cute display of a, you know, let's go do a camp out. They lost graduation, degrees, job opportunities, reputation, friends and family. I mean, I don't even know the extent of what they've lost and the price they had to pay. And I feel like, I mean, I get chills talking about it because they just, they were, they're extraordinary. She bats inspiring because it was, it was really about everybody. It was about humanity and it was all, with all people and all things. And then, you know, as somebody who was not religious, particularly, I'm very secular, but, you know, seeing the respect and celebration of the Muslim faith and the Jewish faith and whatever else, all coming together, sharing spiritual moments, sharing food, sharing music and dance and song and, and talking about about politics and about humanity and about each other and listening listening to each other. Oh my god They just sat around and listen to each other say what needed to be said without the hierarchy of victimization without the what aboutery without any of that crap They just sat there and showed respect for each other. I mean for me that was the greatest demonstration of human dignity You know, and I just want to latch out more of that want to latch on to that and forget like how badly they were treated and beaten and cops and I Like we were what how did this country respond to that with violence and like like I just cannot believe that peaceful movements like that that are built on love were was were treated Like they were violent insurrections needed to be put down with any means that but seriously So for me, you know, I think the response to those moments of beauty says a lot about the state of the country and The fact that those moments not only sprung up in a few places, but like Spread and spread internationally as well For me says something about what's going on with the state of mind of the next generation and what they are willing to do to build a better world because the world needs a lot of fixing and They are they understand how to do it right And it seems significant to like as you're describing the encampments in them sitting and listening to each other This listening and discussion was also happening in like face to face Obviously, there's important kind of activism that happens online absolutely, but there is So much power in actually getting face to face Absolutely, I mean to sit with somebody and say I'm here. I want to listen. Like I don't know everything. Maybe I don't know anything at all But tell me who you are and what how you see things and what you're feeling and experiencing. I want to understand Well, I mean that's a revolutionary act You know, you want to start where you stand? Hell start there. Just listen. Just listen to someone tell you their story and you will learn a lot You will finally see things from their perspective. You will understand what they've experienced and why they act the way they do Why they care about what they care about and that's not difficult We don't do it though. We don't do it as humans We don't do it as part of our communication. We don't do it in the you know social media. We don't do it like For a million reasons we don't do it But we should we don't have excuses, you know, and that's why I said you know in terms of like one of the easy things You can do is find the voices who are on the ground who are speaking and trying to and amplify those because those are the stories That need to be told and that's the listening we need to do whether it's the words on our screen or you know face to face Which I believe is you know a magical thing like there's no substitute for face to face When we're trying to understand someone, but you know, that's not always possible Let's get the words out there. They're the right ones. So we all start to cultivate a little bit of understanding Easy, isn't it? Can you tell me about Yala feminists and maybe what What we can learn from Yala feminists for kind of activating all of this when I was working in Lebanon and covering the Arab region I was An excited observer and hopefully supporter to some of the young feminists movements that I was seeing all around the region and I'm thinking wow this generation They're awesome like they're on the streets. They have all the right principles. They are living their values They know what they're non-negotiables and they're just so much stronger than I mean, I feel like our generalized generation was You know, I am watching them in awe applauding on the sidelines and just like begging them to give me a job so I can help them You know, can I be useful? I'm watching how they work in this way that is organic and intersectional and They don't want to be part of these structures and formal movements It's not part of an NGO. They don't want to register with the ministry. They don't want to be controlled or contained I love the free spiritiveness of that. We're seeing that everywhere around the world That's not just the Arab region, but that was what I was looking at at the time Look at this look at it here with the student encampments and universities With protests all around the world everywhere in the world. We're seeing that happening with young people saying Enough now. This is not the world I want This is not the world I'm gonna accept and I'm gonna stand up and and say something and do something about it And I love that energy and you know, I think For us for the older generation for the most part especially in the Arab region there was a lot of like Establishment feminists like you can be feminists to it, you know, you can argue for like this issue But you know, this one is too radical so like don't you know like tone down your feminism Adjust it based on what is politically palpable? Let's say right what is okay for Generally the old men who are in but what are they willing to accept like come on now girls, you know Don't make a big fuss like settle down You know, we've given you this little thing, but like don't go ask in for all of it like relax now so you know a lot of that kind of stuff was Was constraining for us the older generation And I think this young generation was like hello. We're not you know, it's all or nothing We are fighting for all of it for all of us Not just for women, but for everybody for anybody who has ever been or felt or is marginalized and discriminated against and vulnerable for any aspect of their existence or identity You know, it is inclusive in a way that is really extraordinary and You know, and they rise up for the environment and they rise up for all and so they see the interconnections Between all the forms of violence and I really appreciate that too So anyway all of that to say that I was like wow, you're so cool, and I'm here clapping for you And then I decided well, I'm just gonna write a book about it So brought on an awesome co-author and together we produced a big fat book called the Allah feminists basically talking about rights and resistance and the Arab region Which which was really a labor of love because it is an offering To these movements celebrating them and hoping that people who are not part of those movements older generations maybe Will understand how they rise up and what they need to scale up So it also is a call to the rest of us to say Check out how awesome this is Appreciate this and do something about it like there's a role for you, you know, you're not a dinosaur Like you can still do something, but you know, they're in the lead and that is a good thing because they Have a better chance of finishing what we have failed to finish Thank you so much to Lena Abirafa But you can find out more about Lena at her website Lena Abirafa.com Lena's website is also where you can find her feminist fire starter, which is sort of a Feminist activist how to guide so if you are committed and curious to Feminist activism, but aren't sure kind of how or where to dedicate your energy Definitely check that out you can also follow her on Instagram and ex at Lena Abirafa And check out her newest book Yala Feminists Arab rights and resistance. I would also love to hear From you unladies as always you can get in touch send your emails voice memos to [email protected] You can also DM me on Instagram @unladylikemedia There's a brand new exclusive Interview in the unladies room. Hey Trion I am talking nice Churchy pay tree arki with author Liz Coolidge Jenkins So head over to patreon.com/unladylikemedia Enjoy the unladies room if you want to listen to that You can also just search unladylikemedia in the patreon app That is the most direct way to support this show and thank you so very much Unladylike is an unladylike media production executive produced written edited and hosted by me Kristen Conger our music is bifle mingo shadow amit me coen and Sarah tudson Until next week