Want to Play Golf Freely? Do This. | Dr Raymond Prior

Speaker 1 If I bring expectations to something that if this in the past, then this is how it should be in the future is now. I'm always time travelling where my past needs to be validated by my future and so now I'm holding my future hostage with both my present and my past. Speaker 2 Welcome back to Harlow Can You go? Golf improvement podcast Born in Scotland, the home of golf. So last week we left you on a bit of a cliffhanger. Doctor Raymond Pryor explained why so many of us, myself included, struggled to play golf freely. Why? When we really care about the outcome, we put in a lot of work. When score matters, we can suddenly find ourselves trying to protect something rather than just enjoying playing golf. And I think Chris and I both recognised a lot of ourselves in that. And we left you with the big question, how do you actually fix this? Well, that's exactly what we're starting with today. Raymond takes us through the actual work that we can do to start changing these deeply ingrained patterns and crucially, why simply understanding what's going on in your head isn't going to be enough. And later on, the conversation takes another turn when Raymond gets into something that really hit home for me. Expectation. If you're like me and you feel like you're working hard at your golf and you're wondering why the scores that you want aren't turning up, I think you need to hear this conversation. So this is Part 2 with Doctor Raymond Pryor. This it's high, low. Can you go? Speaker 3 How low can you go? Speaker 4 Yes. And So what is the work you mentioned because I am willing, Raymond, I am very willing, Chris is as well to put in this kind of work like So what kind of work are you recommending? You're saying it kind of away from the course to to try and address some of this and and figure stuff out around these deep rooted feelings that I think I'm battling here. Speaker 1 Yeah, the long and the short of it, again, like without trying to get too vulnerable for you on a podcast episode, would be you exploring your relationships with two things. One other people's opinions, which is 1 layer of failure to us as human beings. And the other is just failure in general, particularly failure that you care about, right? And like, what does it mean for me if these things happen? And really picking apart the stories you're telling yourself and like, hold on. How much of this is true versus how much of it is what I'm telling myself? And if there are parts of it that are true, asking yourself, am I actually willing to experience that? Right? So this is an acceptance issue of how much of the risk that I'm facing is imagined based on what I tell myself and how much of it is actually real. And then which case am I willing to accept that? And if I'm not, what would I need to do to be able to step into that? All right, so. Speaker 4 There's everything just on that. Are you saying to write this kind of stuff down or just verbalise it? Speaker 1 Both, right? So it's this is a conversation I have with a loved one who is just trying to help and understand me. There's a conversation with a good friend. It's also me seeing my own thoughts and words and narratives in my own native language, in my own handwriting. Our brain recognises that in a very powerful way, by the way. And then also asking, like, if we're going to talk about what change looks like for us psychologically and behaviorally. There's kind of four stages, right? So the first is I need to really be aware of this pattern. So in this case, I'm very aware that I am trying to avoid being judged in a certain way and trying to avoid failure in something that I have invested in. And I do care about how it goes, right? So it's not don't care about it. It's no, I'm aware that this is this is this the reality of this situation, right. Speaker 4 And there's no convincing, like my subconscious that I don't care about this because, like, you clearly care about it. Speaker 1 The human brain is 100% designed not to be fooled about things that count and don't count, right? Like your brain knows when score counts. And it's not just score on the golf course. It's there are people watching, there are people listening. I have invested behind it. Like your brain knows that stuff. It is designed not to be distracted from it or convinced otherwise. Which is why, for example, when players who are experiencing a tonne of anxiety are having some jerky motions, what they're putting, what people would normally call like the yips, like you can change the putter. Your brain is going to sniff that out in anywhere from like hours, days, weeks. Like it it typically like the people who oh, I change putters and now I just don't have any anxiety. Putting are like massive outliers. Like there's one of those for every thousand of people where I have I have 7 putters at the house, right? Why? Because your brain is designed not to be dissuaded from the risk, which is you may or may not make this thing. Speaker 4 Every Golf Club has has a few of those guys who change their putters every three months. Speaker 1 There's a tonne of them. Why? Because your brain goes, oh, this is different. Basically a new putter in my hands creates a new association for my brain and then therefore a new explanation. But at some point my brain is going to recognise this is the same task with the same risk involved, right? So again, if you go back to our ancestors, I put a different spear in your hands and we take a different path. OK, great, that's fine. But at some point, my brain is going to recognise there's dangerous stuff out here. OK? In which case then it doesn't really matter what spear I have. Yeah, 1 spear might be better for me than another, but no spear is going to remove the risk involved. OK. So again, just how our brain works. So again, if we're going back to if I wanted to make a change, I need to be really aware of this pattern, not in a judgmental way, in a very observational, very curious way. The second is that you got to get fed up. So if you think about any change that humans make, what the status quo has to be something that we go enough is enough. So I need to nitpick it to the NTH degree of every time I go play golf in front of other people, I feel anxiety and that sucks. Or every time I come to this hole and I've had a bad experience with it before, I end up hitting it way the heck over there or I get this. This is the experience that I'm getting that is not at all consistent with what I really want. In the same way that if you were had a diet that was inconsistent with health and feeling the way you wanted, you would need to get fed up with what you're currently eating, right? So our brain doesn't move from one thing that is very predictable and familiar, although unproductive to something new until it starts to recognise this is not working for me and I don't like it. And that is not just a logical exercise. That is a like felt experience. Like I would even ask you every time you go play in front of other people and you're quote unquote protecting your investment. What does that feel like to you? And you'll be like, it feels anxious. I feel rushed, I feel whatever, I feel regretful when the situation over. Like you have to pick it out in a way where you go enough is enough. Like I don't want to do that anymore. So we really have to get fed up before we can start to like create change. So I need to explore my relationships with things and get fed up with the current relationship that I'm in, right? Think about it like this is a toxic boyfriend or girlfriend and I'm sick of it. And I'm going to nitpick it until I can't nitpick it anymore. Then the next thing we need is a better option. And the better option for anybody who wants higher performance is I've got to do this thing more freely, period, end of sentence. Which requires taking on the risk that is actually in it and removing any imaginary risk from it, or at least as much as I can. Better option is always really. And the reason we know it's better is 1. You had talked about it before. I believe you described it as Nirvana, right? And that is what we experience when we are freely pursuing something that is indeed important to us. That does indeed include some risk, but I'm not guarding against that risk. So the all the neurochemical benefits that come from being at or near flow state come from not just be present, but I don't have any reason not to be present in this experience or I haven't given myself any tasks that would remove me from it. So again, stage 1 is I need to know the pattern and I need to be really familiar with it and get curious about it, know where it pops up for me, why it pops up for me, so on and so forth. Speaker 4 And like letting the pen flow, if you're writing this letter is let let it write all the different aspects of it, all the different like experiences that you've had. Speaker 1 Right, totally. Then it's I got to get really fed up with that. I'm not going to do that anymore right now. Again, if we're going to put this in another analogy, it's the panel. I know whenever I take penalty kicks, I worry about this, this, this and this, which then I go in there trying to consciously control my kick taking, just trying to make sure that I get this thing over with and hopefully it isn't awful. Like if I would rat all the calculations, I would rather the goalie make a great save than miss it over the top. Like all of that stuff we need to pay attention to so we can go enough is enough. I'm not, I'm not doing this like that anymore. Then I my better option is really clear, which is I'm just going to go up there. I'm going to pick a spot, I'm going to make a free strike and then I'm going to just see what happens, right? So it's basically high pursuit, high acceptance, big wide open open-ended future is basically that's what our brain feels when we are in, in and around flow states. OK, By the way, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm comfortable. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm certain. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm in control and it doesn't remove real risk. It just means I'm stepping into it. Yeah. Then the last part of that for us is I need to be able to sit with what neurologically is called a double down. But what it really means is like the withdrawal symptom from it, which is there's going to be a part of me that barks. Are you sure you don't want to really, like, hang on to this and just not screw this up? You've invested so much of this. Or Are you sure that you don't want to pay attention to what other people are thinking about you? Right. So there's going to be a part of my brain. We call this limbic friction, which is there's a part of my brain that is making the change that I actually want, and then there's the part of my brain that's going, Are you sure you don't want to just go back to what's safe, familiar and predictable for you? Even though what it predicts and it's familiar is pretty crappy, There's going to be some pullback. And what we have to do with that is nothing, right? So again, imagine that. Again, it's my diet and I'm trying to change the way I eat and I'm starting to eat healthier when my brain goes, Are you sure you don't want that juicy burger from such and such? I have to be able to see that and just do nothing with it, to just sit with it long enough for it to come and go in order for me to stay on course with a new better option, right? So we are gone. You're going to get some pushback from your nervous and that's this is what you're already experiencing while you're playing golf, right? It's basically friction between what you want and what your brain knows feels like it's in control and in safe of and is protecting your investment. For us to give that, we have to sit with that feeling and do absolutely nothing with it so that we can change how we focus and how we act in a way that is aligned with where we actually want to go. And do that long enough for our brain to go, oh, I guess our new thing is and then fill in whatever blank, hopefully more freedom based. And so when people are like, all I got to do is think about this differently. I'm like, no, you're going to feel this. It's going to come kick you right in the teeth at some point and you're going to need to be ready to do that, to have that feeling come at you and do nothing with it. Otherwise you'll just jump back right into the same cycle over and over again. So steps 2 and steps four are the most difficult for us because they are the most felt. Meaning I need to nitpick this and get so fed up and I actually want to feel really bad, quote unquote bad about the current cycle that I'm in. And then I need to be ready for when my brain tries to pull me back into that cycle, which it will because that is how it's designed to preserve behaviours and patterns because changing them feels very vulnerable. So basically you need to be able to sit in the vulnerability without trying to bail yourself out from. Speaker 4 It and on that, the toxic relationship analogy that you used, I think is a really good one there because in that final stage that you're talking about where you've got to just sit with it and don't kind of revert back to what you did previously. That's a bit like, you know, I'm sure the voice in your head if you've come away from a toxic relationship that would be going, oh, do you not think maybe you should give that another go or, you know, that's probably not as bad as you thought it was. Is that is that? Speaker 1 Or similar. Yeah, that or like, you know, people in toxic relationships, it's very easy for us to point relationship, point fingers at and be like, what's wrong with you? And it's like, well, this one, this relationship is very predictable, right? And our brain associates association, not not truly, but falsely at times, predictability with safety. The other thing is like we often don't like if, if my narrative is also, well, it's better to be with somebody than not who sucks, then nobody at all. That's still an option that my brain is going to start to pull me toward, right? So hence why we need to pay attention. What is my relationship with this relationship, right? Is it a safety thing? Is it a love thing? And then there's going to be the part, well, my brain is now going to be like that toxic partner that's going to text me late, tell me things I want to hear. Even though it's not like, you know, if you just like don't screw this round up, like that'll make you feel really good about how hard you work this week or whatever. Like all of those things are just that kind of toxic avoidance based relationship with something or dependent relationship with something that feels safe and predictable to us. But what we might notice about safe and predictable is that's the opposite of vulnerable. If we're going to step into risk, there's some vulnerability involved. Speaker 3 I definitely think this year I've I'd say and Dave you've been around for two of them and then I don't had one in the medal, but I've been in flow state this season. I know of three times definitely. And you listing the knowing the pattern. I think for me it was playing competitive golf. I felt like there was this narrative always that like can't perform and competitive golf. I can only perform when I'm playing like a bounce round or just playing with Dave or something like that. And then like what you were saying about getting fed up with it, I actually was like, I need to lean into this and play more and came to get those reps and and feeling uncomfortable thing with it. And then I remember speaking to my wife, Chloe, and just like, Hey, see, you were saying like either to a partner and tend to show them how vulnerable you are. Write it down. Your brain really picks that up. I spoke to her about how it made me feel. And it was like the one thing that was dangling over my head was at the end of the round where you have to walk into the pro shop and the computers in the pro shop and they always go, how do you play? Speaker 1 That's exactly right. Speaker 3 And then it's and then it's the putting it in and it gets uploaded and it's just that daunting seeing yourself maybe like 56 in the competition and then you're getting the messages about it. So is that kind of being like, right, OK, it's OK to be sitting in this kind of slump. And I spoke to when I felt like I was kind of, it felt good to have those kind of conversations. But then what came thereafter was I approached the competitive golf. It wasn't like, I don't care, but it was more of a I'm OK if these shots, if I had a bad shot, there's always this one after it that could go in. Like in my head, I know I have the skills to get that ball in that hole. And I wasn't, I wouldn't say I was living in the future, but after the shot, it was like, OK, forget about it. And then I feel like I was freely swinging. I was committing to the process instead of the outcome, which was massive. And this is, I'll give you your flowers because I think from when we had that conversation where it was like, you just need to be able to sit in that and be uncomfortable. But then you will find some comfort because you're sitting in it for long enough. And then I felt like, Dave, it comes around a bit, the 16th or 17th hole at Murrayfield, where I know I'm on a good score. Yeah, my bad shot can sometimes be a slice. And if you slice it on the 16th and 17th, you've got that kind of voice of don't hit it right. But I've said to Dave so many times, it's that doubling down when I'm there, I feel free and I know that it doesn't matter what happens. And I am, when I say that it's the freest I've ever felt standing over a golf ball saying maybe like two or three under. And I'm just like, just like hit this shot with so much freedom. And I fell and I was in that flow state. And when the shot hits it and I walk off that T box, then I'm committed to the next one. And I'm like, well, you just mastered that one and you feel great about that one. Take that into the next shot to the next shot. And that's where I have had my best medal score, which might have not been under par. But for me, it felt like I was at the mentoring top this season of just like you yourself have worked so hard to get to that point. And that is from listening to the professionals like yourself and really the building the foundation of who I am. I feel like that's helped me massively in my game. So thank you to yourself. Speaker 4 And thank you to me, Chris. Thank you for additional, additional context up before. Obviously, I don't want to stop you in your tracks, Doctor Raymond, because you know, I'm sure you've got a lot of really interesting things to say about this. But for context for our listeners, Chris shot 67, which we announced with great fanfare on this podcast. But then he did it again. He went out. First of all, I think was the day before you shot your best score, I think, in a medal at our homecourt. Fantastic. But then you went out and shot another 67. And I'm not going to necessarily blow my own trumpet here or toot my own horn, as they would say in the US. But I think you were, you had that ball on a string like you were, you were just like you couldn't miss a lot of the time in that round. And I remember on the 17th tee box saying to you, Chris, and I was thinking about you, Raymond, like I was like, you're playing so well just. Speaker 2 Get after it. Speaker 4 Get after it. I think you're playing this well. Like just go after whatever shot you want to hit here. Like don't think, oh, let me just get this ball in the house, like get after it. And so I do credit myself a little bit for that. Maybe I should be a coach. That's The Who knows? Speaker 3 Thank. Thank you, Dave. I'll give you your players. I'll give you players as well. Speaker 1 What we can, what we can see in Chris's description. And Dave, your advice is that there was no trying to avoid the vulnerability in this, right? So Chris, you did some work on what is it that I feel really vulnerable in? Oh, it's posting a score, right? And then seeing where that score is in relation to other people and then how other people might respond to it and how I might feel about where that score ranks relative to the investment that I've made, right? So instead of trying to avoid those risks or mitigate them, like you said, I was willing to lean into them, a willing to accept that that might be part of how this plays out. Then what happens is you have a different experience while you're playing. Why? Because you're not juggling those avoidance based tasks at the same time. And then the advice from Dave is not, hey, man, you got a great score going. Like just kind of steer it in like good enough is good enough. The advice was like, no, go get more of what you want. Right. So there wasn't a pull the handbrake for a little bit here to finish up and just make sure you get across the finish line. It was like now I maybe you try to get across the finish line as fast as you can and by not that. I mean, the analogy is with the best time, not necessarily with or the best score, not necessarily with like just get the round over with. But what he was not telling you is like, go pursuit, don't try to avoid a bunch of stuff, right? So again, like intuitively we know that there's this relationship between pursuit and avoidance quite frequently, though, we don't address our relationships with the avoidance based things. And in which case, then our freedom is limited while we're doing it. Speaker 2 Just jumping in here because I think there's a really interesting contrast developing. You've just heard Chris describe what happens when he manages to let go, play freely and fully commit, and he's now shot 67 twice in quick succession. And I'm coming up this from almost the opposite direction. I'm working hard. I feel like I am improving. I've seen a bit of evidence that I'm improving, certainly with my ball striking. So why aren't the scores getting better? And that's where this conversation goes next. Because Raymond's explanation of expectation and what it can do to us when we really care about getting better is absolutely fascinating. OK, back to the conversation. Speaker 3 Yeah, no, I found this season there has been so many up and downs, like bad scores where I've had some terrible rounds. I've been down in the dump speaking Dave about it a few times. And I'm just, I recently, yeah, I said I think I'm just going to get to the end of the season, take a little break and just build on myself again, like mentally and my game. And then I went out and shot my best friend again and it was like, oh, I'm back. But Dave, I know obviously you said you wanted to speak about because I'm kind of speaking about my. Speaker 4 Oh, no, it's great, you know, and I'm really happy for you, Chris. You know, I feel yeah, Raymond, we were both in a car journey coming home recently and we actually released a podcast of our conversation and we were both feeling really philosophical, like a bit like a bit like what you're describing is like, I'm fed up with this, like this moment. These moments come around too often. I think from my perspective, just talking briefly about I think expectations, because one of the kind of goals that I had for myself this year was I want to try and get into a few more competitive style rounds, competitive type rounds of golf. Because even if I feel uncomfortable, that's going to stretch me. And even if I go out, you know, at least it's just more experience and hopefully that is good for my game long term. So going into that club championship and then getting to the semifinals, I think I was kind of I surprised myself in some ways. Then we've already talked about the the collapse in that. Then I've also been in a few competitive medals at our home course, not as many as I would like, just time constraints with that. But I did go out and shoot my best ever around in a tournament and I felt like that was a really big milestone. I was like, OK, great. You've shown to yourself that you can go into these medal scenarios and you can produce a score that is, you know, low 80s for me is a good score and that's what I shot that day. But I think coming with all of this has led to expectations. If I, if I hit a milestone where it's like, OK, well, I was in an uncomfortable situation there and I did quite well. I got to the semifinals. I shot a good round in that. And also what we've been working on a bit through some of the conversations on this podcast is don't give up if you're having a really terrible day because your C game, if you've got your C game that day and you're having a really terrible time, if you can lift the value of your C game, I should have better score than your C game was capable of last year. So for me, that would be like a really bad day at the office. For me, last year would have been like approaching triple digits probably, if I'm being honest. No, I've, I remember having a terrible day, but I managed to shoot like 90 or low 90s. And so getting all of these different milestones, I know that doesn't sound that impressive, but just me feeling like, OK, my C game has come up a level. I've hit these milestones like being uncomfortable in tournaments and played quite well. So therefore I'm now expecting, I'm expecting, right, there's going to be a breakthrough coming soon like what happened with Chris and it hasn't come. And I just feel like I'm just at the moment, in a bit of a slump and I'm just shooting bad numbers and I don't know what I should do about that. Speaker 1 It'd be another area to explore for you is what is my relationship like with expectation. So expectation by definition is my subjective sense of if this happened in the past, this should happen in the future. Like so should, by the way, is the language of entitlement that if I do that, then that means I'm going to get what I want in the future on the timetable that I think it should happen basically when and how easy and however I want it to happen. Like that's entitlement, right? So the challenge isn't that this is negative thinking. It's that if I bring expectations to something that if this in the past, then this is how it should be in the future is now. I'm always time travelling where my past needs to be validated by my future. And so now I'm holding my future hostage with both my present and my past. And so it's not necessarily don't have expectations, but it might be like, hold on a second, what, what kind of impact is this expectation having on my performance, on my experience, on the progress that I want to make? And almost always when we close end our future, close end, meaning it has to be this or it should be this. What happens is now everything I'm doing now, my brain is calculating, how is this? How is this working toward what I expect to happen in the future? It's just wildly distracting, right? One of the one of the key characteristics of flow state is immersion in the task at hand, which means two things. I'm not bringing any other tasks to this and to my future is open-ended. It's not closed ended. I'm not forecasting it. I'm not projecting it. It's not built around expectation. So if what I'm doing is this thing right now to try to do it as well as I can in pursuit of a future I want, but then it better measure up to the future that I expect to happen now. I have an extra task attached to it that by definition requires me to jump back and forth between my present, my past and my future and constantly doing the calculation about do I think what I'm doing now is going to add up to what it should be later on. We can kind of see that like neurologically and psychologically, this is a bit of a trap for us. What expectations do though for our nervous system? Is it quote? I'm putting this in quotes for those listening feels like it's doing something to move us toward the future that we want. The downside is it's actually a bit of an anchor. It drops that drops for us and kind of holds us where we are, right? So I would just say for anyone, like, what is your expectation or was your relationship with expectations? Is it something that if they are there, I must attend to them, I must try to fill them, or are they something that can exist and I can just allow that to be without it being part of my experience that I bring to it? So again, expectations by definition are my idea of what the future should be. It's often times a very humbling but important reminder that the world doesn't operate based on wanting and judgement, meaning what we want and how things should be. It operates on reality and the reality is the future is always uncertain. And so expectations that I'm bringing to this do run the risk of if they are outcome based and future based and ease based. Meaning how easy something comes and how quickly it comes. I'm kind of putting myself into a bit of a trap versus expectations for I expect to play every shot freely, or I expect to be prepared, or I expect to remain composed when things like basically behavioural expectations that exist in any moment under any circumstances can be really valuable for us. But the more rigid, the more entitled and the more future and outcome based expectations become, the more of a trap they are for us too. Speaker 4 And I'm just on that if you are getting some swing lessons and instruction from a coach cannot sometimes lead to this light out of sync expectation with reality. Because like, say, so for example, we had coach Rick Curran on and he has been so kind to Chris and I, he's like saying, oh, send me through your videos, send me all this stuff we want to analyse. I want to help you. And I've been having a bit of back and forth with him and it's been brilliant, you know, and I'm seeing really good results in in on the range. And when I'm out on the course, I take little videos and stuff like that, but I think there's a voice in my head going, OK, great. I'm getting validation that I'm making good moves here. I'm getting validation that I'm seeing really good ball flight, really good strikes on the track man and on the course sometimes and in practise. But then I'm trying to knit all this together with a good round. And I think maybe deep down I'm thinking, OK, well, you've had some lessons, you've you've made some improvements. You should be expecting some good scores right now. I think that is sometimes happening. Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say this still comes back to probably your relationship with the investment you're making and the resources you're using and whether that plays out in the way that you expect or need it to play out. If I told you you're investing this and it needs to play out this way, your brain's probably going to spit you a variety of different expectations trying to move you along that timeline. Then we might ask is like, well, what impact is that actually having on your progress and or you're just overall experience playing golf? Speaker 4 Yeah. So I think it's not work that you talked about earlier that I think we need to put in, Yeah. Speaker 1 Basically, like if you take any human being and you go, the expectation is that you are not allowed to fail. They're going to have a series of different, what we might call, again, this is not the right term, but for the purpose of the audience, like mental blocks and expectations are one of those. Again, it all comes back to, well, I don't have permission to try and fail in this. Then you're going to get a whole bunch of stuff that pops up that your brain's going to be doing its best to try to meet that end challenges like they're all avoidance based things that by definition limit pursuit and progress. Speaker 4 Yeah. And if we're going to put in this kind of work away from the course, as you say, and like, I get it, you probably hear this all the time. You'll get club golfers going, oh, what are you talking about? I'm going to go away and like, you know, talk freely about this stuff and the other that I'm vulnerable about or write a journal. Like, am I really going to do that? I'd rather go and hit balls and hopefully get better at golf. Umm, you know, would you recommend that you do this exercise over and over again? Like for as long as possible? Speaker 1 It usually takes reps for us, right? So basically if you think about just from a neurological standpoint, the fastest, strongest parts of my brain have been running the same programming for a while. And for to change that and give it something different to run in enough time for my brain to rewire or start to wire differently, it's going to take some time and some reps Like we need to see things a couple of times. Why part in part why change is difficult for us as humans, because there's also neuroplastic change that has to happen in our brain more than I just understand something conceptually. Like every human being knows that eating a certain way is more healthier than eating in other certain ways. But we don't all do that because it would take a lot of like basically you would need to eat for 60 to 90 days for your brain and your nervous system to rewire in a way that craves cleaner food, which most people just don't stick with long enough, right? You need enough reps on that and it's hard to do. By the way, same thing goes for us. If you're going to change your golf swing, there are a certain amount of reps that you need to do. But the challenge for us psychologically is those reps happen in vulnerability, right? So and would you say that that's. Speaker 4 Valuable that. That's really valuable. Reps Yeah Rep. Speaker 1 Reps are are really important for us in that like the idea that good psychology is epiphany based is wildly incorrect. Like that all of a sudden there's just some penny drop and I go, oh just don't be. Just be willing to accept the vulnerability is by far the exception to the rule and it is a massive outlier for people. And most of the time when we feel some type of epiphany change, what's been happening behind the scenes are all the things the the types of kind of dominoes starting to move in a way where an epiphany was the only thing that was needed for it. But there's actually been a tonne of change based elements happening for a really long time. So this idea that like, oh, oh, just play freely or like stop guarding against failure. Like the epiphany from a conceptual standpoint that creates like actual behavioural and felt experience change is not really how it works. In the same way that like nobody changes their workout lifestyle by this epiphany that like, oh, I need to exercise every day. Like you've got to do it in order for it to actually take effect and just the. Speaker 2 Last question. Speaker 4 I have on getting swing changes and like what you're saying about putting in quality reps. Speaker 2 Would you recommend? Speaker 4 Because like some, some people like me going and just getting out in the course and trying to make the changes out on the course because you'll get a lot of people saying, oh, well, you know, you got to go away to a range and hit X number of balls, blah, blah, blah. But whenever you get to the course, never think about, you know, your changes. Whereas I sort of feel like if I'm going to try and implement these changes, I need to just jump into the deep end and get out in the course and try and do it. Speaker 1 The people who are very very strong on one opinion or another of those meaning like just take it to the course with swing thoughts or never have swing thoughts are probably not very well versed on the research on motor change, bio mechanics or practise the science of practise. The conditions behind that are for us to make a change in a motor pattern requires a couple of different conditions. Block practise is one of them, not the only one, but one of the things about our brain is it makes change faster when we make that change in vulnerability. That's to say, like if I want to step into a change in my life of any kind, when it's most difficult for me to do that, my brain gets most reinforced for making that change, right? So if I'm terrified of rejection and I actually go and talk to somebody, whether they reject me or not, that change for me being willing to be rejected in order to pursue what I want happens faster. Like I get more juice for it, so to speak. So there is something to be said about reps Then it also is like, well, what is the context of these reps? Which is why block practise in and of itself is valuable for every golfer, but there's a Max on how valuable it can be and why randomised practise or what might say differential practise offers a tonne of benefits to everybody in different places And why playing under pressure actually offers us reps, provided we are doing it in a way that matches what we want to happen. And we're not guarding against stuff that we don't want to happen. So it does happen. Like if someone's like, how do I make my swing change faster? I'd be like, make the change and do not deviate from it, which doesn't mean don't ever swing the club differently. It means if you're trying to swing club differently, do it everywhere. But that would also mean that if you're playing a competitive round of golf, you might see a different miss in a less predictable way sooner. But your brain will be like, Oh, well, if those are things we're willing to accept that I'll lean into this swing change. But if every time I go play golf, I go, Oh no, the priority. So basically you're asking is the priority my score and ball flight or is the priority making this change? And if I want to make a change, then the priority has to be the change. And I'm going to be willing to sacrifice score and ball flight for a while Now where somebody is and whether they're willing to do that. You know, if you're a tour player and you're in the middle of the season, you cannot compete by just going well, I don't care. I just going to prioritise my mechanics and I don't really care about my ball flight and score like that is a non functional option. So it depends. Time and place are good. There's a tonne of different elements to consider when you're asking that type of a question. But if you're just saying, well, what will accelerate that? It's making that a priority and making it a priority under all conditions and then practising in ways that would actually amplify that change, which is more than just block practise. Like we don't technically groove golf swings. That's not how our brain really learn. Interesting that's. Speaker 4 Brilliant. Speaker 3 Brilliant way to to end there because I think we've spoke about that so many times by the blocking. Random, but cleared up in the most perfect way. Yeah. I mean, that would be a podcast. Speaker 1 Episode in and of itself, I know Again, just as we're finishing up here, I got to jump to a call here in a second, but the people who have a very strong opinion it's all block or it's all random again are wildly ignorant to the larger body of research about practise, right? Like it's not one or the other. This is they are just two types of practise on a spectrum and there are several different variations in between all that offer value to golfers of a variety of skill, just different levels at different times for different purposes. So the people that are so strongly in one camp are either bringing their subjective anecdotal experience to it that is filled with confirmation bias, or they're just not really attuned to like the larger body of research about when and where they offer benefits, to whom they offer benefits, under what conditions and what context. Like in the same way that somebody who's an expert in nutrition is not all in on one diet and devaluing all the rest of them, they would go these value, these diets are really valuable for these people under these conditions. These like, or everyone would benefit from this type of diet, but in this type of amount and like, there's this sliding scale for us and all of that. So this whole, like, it's all this type of practise or another is not consistent with anything that the research shows us about the science of practise. Yeah. Speaker 2 And I think you're right, I think. Speaker 4 This is a whole other golf school, a whole other podcast that we could go into practise and effective practise because I think just to to kind of tie a ribbon around some of what we've talked about. I feel like if you've gone and bashed lots of balls and I've done this many times myself, I've had high expectations thinking well, you've done this and you put in this X amount of work and you saw some quite good results in that low pressure environment. So therefore I'm expecting to go out and see some really good stuff. But I'm also feeling a lot of pressure because I'm feeling like people are knowing that I put all this time in and they're seeing these bad results on the golf course and I can't cope with that. I think there's all of this going on. So lots of for us to chew on. Raymond, thank you so much as ever. Chris, sorry, I feel like I've dominated a lot. It's all been me, me, me here. But but you're the guy who said smugly, who's been, he's been shooting the 60 sevens and and I'm sitting here wondering if I'm ever going to be able to shoot in the 80s again. No, I've learned a lot. Speaker 3 Today, thank again. Thank you so much Raymond for your time. It's been brilliant. As always, it's been been a pleasure. Speaker 1 Absolutely. And just remind. Speaker 4 Everyone, Raymond, where everyone can go and check you out. Obviously you've got the great podcast with Chase Golf beneath the surface. You've got your books, you've got your websites. Yeah, the book is golf. Speaker 1 Beneath the surface, the podcast is also golf. Beneath the surface, my website isbtsmindset.com and I think there's a Instagram for the podcast that is maybe GBTS underscore podcast or if you just I'm not, I don't do the social media stuff like Chase does. So if I get that handle wrong. But if you Google Instagram Golf Beneath the Circus podcast, you'll find it perfect. Speaker 3 Wonderful. Speaker 4 Yeah, and we'll drop all of that into the show notes. Doctor Raymond Pryor, thank you so much once again. And we look forward to having another great conversation again very soon. Great. All right, boys, be well. We'll see. Speaker 1 You. Thanks. Cheers. Doctor. Speaker 2 Raymond, Pryor, everyone. I think there's a really important connection between these two episodes with Doctor Raymond. Last time it was permission to fail, and this week it's actually doing the work required to make that happen, to make that mean something. Because I think I'm probably guilty of wanting some epiphany. I've understood it. I've listened to Doctor Raymond, right? So that should be me fixed. And clearly that's not how all of this works, whether that's our relationship with failure, other people's opinions, or. Speaker 4 I think the big one for. Speaker 2 Me is expectation and as Raymond says, this work takes some reps I can work very hard at my golf. I can desperately want to break 80 and I can pursue it as hard as I possibly can, but I cannot demand that golf delivers it to me on the timetable. I've decided that it should, and that is something I'm going to be thinking about and digging into a lot in the next little while. So huge thanks again to to Raymond for being so generous with us and frankly for the free therapy. So go and check out Golf Beneath the Surface, the phenomenal book by Doctor Raymond Pryor and the podcast by the same name with Chase Cooper, another really good friend of our show, and we'll put all the links in the show notes. So thank you all once again for listening and keep all the messages coming in, keep the requests coming in. It's always good to hear from people saying they're shooting good scores. Having listened to some of these conversations, that's exactly what we want. So we will see you all next time on how low can you go? If you've made it all the way to the end of this then you're clearly as obsessed with getting better at golf as Chris and I. So if you're interested in Harlow, can you go live in 2027 world class? Speaker 4 Coaching. Speaker 2 Small groups and actually putting what we talk about on the podcast into practise. Then sign up via the link in the show notes. We hope that we will see you there in 2027.