Want to change your life? Start small! (w/ Eric Zimmer)

(upbeat music) This is How To Be A Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. And today, I wrote three pages in a journal. I exercised for seven minutes and I just finished my second glass of water. Now, I mentioned those things because they're all habits that I'm trying to build. They're small ones, but I think they are remarkably difficult for me to actually do every day. And if I'm being honest, the only reason I did those habits today was because I knew that I was gonna record this podcast, then I wanted to be able to talk about them. You know, I think a lot of habits are like that, right? Things that we try to force ourselves to do because they're the habits of the person that we want to be. And our hope is, if we do the habits enough, it'll stop feeling like something we have to force and we'll just be closer to that ideal self. Well, our guest today on the show is Eric Zimmer. He's the host of the One You Feed Podcast and he's the author of the new book, How A Little Becomes A Lot, The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life. I'm so excited to talk to Eric for a number of reasons, but two of the biggest are that Eric has been thinking for years about how the small actions we do every day add up to be the big meaningful results of how we live our life. And I love that Eric is very honest about how hard it can be to change those small actions. Here's a clip from his 2016 talk at TEDx Columbus. - Making lasting changes in our behavior is a battle. It's difficult and most of us don't succeed at it for very long. And I host a podcast where I've talked to over 150 thought leaders and authors and psychologists and spiritual teachers, people like Andrew Solomon, Carol Deweck, Simon Sinek, Don Miguel Ruiz. And we talk about what it means to live a good life. And right at the heart of living a good life is being able to choose how we want to behave and actually follow through on that. Most of us think when it comes to creating new habits that it's a matter of willpower or discipline and that we don't have enough of either. We might suspect inwardly that maybe we're just the kind of person who can't follow through on things. We think that making lasting change is something that only other people can do. One of the key ideas I'd like you to get today is that changing behavior is a skill. It's something that you can learn to do. You can get better at creating new habits. We're gonna talk about how to create those habits and keep them with Eric right after this break. Today we're talking with Eric Zimmer about how small changes can make our lives much more meaningful. I'm Eric Zimmer. I'm the author of the new book, "How a Little Becomes A Lot," the art of small changes for a more meaningful life. And I am also the host of the award-winning podcast, "The One You Feed." Many people who know you will know you from your fantastic podcast, "The One You Feed." For people who have not listened, can you tell them how you start every episode of "The One You Feed?" Yeah, I start by reading an old parable of unknown origin and it goes like this. There's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, "The One You Feed." So this is a very meaningful story to you, a very meaningful parable. You've had hundreds of conversations with people about what that means to them. Do you remember when you first heard it and why it stuck with you? It would have been in some church basement in Columbus, Ohio, probably somewhere around 30 years ago when I was dealing with heroin addiction and somebody in a meeting told that story and I immediately got it. I think we all do, right? It's a parable. The point of a parable is you hear it and you're like, oh, I know it, okay. But it was really resonant to me at the time because my bad wolf was destroying me. I don't even know if I was feeding it so much as it was just eating me. But I was able to see really clearly at that point in my life. And luckily I had people helping me see this. Like there are certain ways of acting and thinking that lead me towards my recovery. And there are other ways of acting and thinking that lead me further down the death spiral that my addiction had become. And so it resonated really, really strongly with me. Now it was a lot of years later when I started the podcast with the parable. But it still spoke to me. It just felt like an easy jumping off point to talk about the things that matter. - This parable of the wolf is about like the biggest questions there are, right? What are the things that drive you? What's the good and what's the bad? What's the helpful, the harmful? What's the good and evil? I'm curious to hear a little bit about how you think about the scale in your own life between big and small. - Yeah, well, if you were gonna film the movie of my life, you would start by seeing me in a dilapidated old tuberculosis hospital in Columbus, Ohio in the winter that had been turned into a detox center. And you'd see me go in there and I was in bad shape. I was a homeless heron addict. I weighed 100 pounds. My skin was yellow and jaundiced from hepatitis C. The prosecutor told me I was facing up to 50 years in prison. And you'd see me go into a counselor's office and they say very reasonably, we think you need to go to long-term treatment. And me saying, no, thank you. And then I went back to my room and I saw with real clarity that I was gonna die or go to jail if I left that building. And it was gonna happen soon. So if we were filming the movie of my life, that would be the pivotal scene. That would be the big moment, right? We'd have the emotional strings in the background. That would be the whole thing. And sure, that's an important moment. But it's only important because of the thousands of little choices I made after that, all of the off-camera moments that add up. And I think that's sort of a way of tying the big and the small together is that yes, there are big moments, there are big epiphanies, there are big questions to answer in our lives. But that's just part of it because the rest of it is the how we live those things out. And that can really only be done choice by choice, action by action day by day. - In those days after you made the decision, right? Like I'm going to detox, I'm going to change my life, I'm not going to keep going down the path of heroin addiction. I think a lot of us, right, like feel like that should be the moment. And then there's this weird thing that you have to actually live your life every day after that. So can you tell me some of what filled the time or what helped you to make those small choices as you were going? - Well, I was in a position whether fortunate or unfortunate where staying in long-term treatment was both an option for me. I happened to just be poor enough that it could happen. And highly incented by the courts to do the same thing. So my first days after were entirely consumed with recovery. I was in a treatment center. I went to 12 step meetings. We had groups. I was sent off to write assignments. I did nothing but live recovery for a period of time. And so for me in the beginning, it was easy. It was later, when I got out that of course, then you start asking that question of, what do I do with the time? Now, I am luckily a person who tends to by nature be pretty interested in a lot of things. So filling time is usually not my challenge. - So let me take it from the very serious. - Do. A place where the stakes are a little bit lower at least. Which is, I'm curious about the meta level of writing a book and having it be about making small meaningful choices. Because to me, when I wrote, this was my first book that I just wrote. I thought one of the most challenging parts was actually just getting myself to sit in front of the computer. Not even the writing, just being like, now is the time where I will do the writing. So how did the lessons that you wanted to convey either help or ironically not help you as you were writing this book? Well, they helped completely. Because I did write the book little bit by little bit. As the only way you can do it, you can't write the whole book now. I didn't know how to do it. I'd never done it. I love books. They mean so much to me. And I was like, I have no idea if I can write a good one. Really doubted that I could. - Hmm. - Very relatable. I've been much relate to that. - Yeah. So the only thing I really could do is, as you said, I set out times that I was gonna write. And the only thing I measured was, did I stay in front of the computer for the period of time that I said I was going to write? I do 30 minutes, then I would take a break, unless I was in a role. But then I would take a break and I would reset. And then I would be like, okay, 30 more minutes. And I would set a timer. I had a whole little routine, set a timer, put on certain music, set up the little apps that on my phone that block everything. Absolutely. Because one of the things that we know about motivation from being a part of the behavioral science is that we become more motivated when we believe in ourselves and our abilities to do the thing. We become less motivated when we doubt ourselves and we don't think we can do it. So for me, if I had been trying to compare it against the big thing, I would have felt constantly deflated. But when I compared it to, did I do my 30 minutes, not did I write anything useful in that 30 minutes, just did I do it, then I could go, yes, I did. Okay, good. I feel I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, which made me more motivated, which made the next 30 minutes easier. And lots of days, yes, just like you, the trick was just sit down in front of the computer and start the timer. Not even 30 minutes, even that felt like too much. And that's a surprisingly effective trick that I use in all aspects of my life way, way more than I think I should have to. I think it's really interesting. And I love that yours was 30 minutes because I think that actually feels really manageable, right? Like you could just sit and stare at the wall for 30 minutes. I think people would really struggle to stare at the wall for two hours. I have been trying to be a meditator since I was 18 years old. This is a long time ago, right? And way before there was the internet, way before there was anything, all there were were books on Buddhism. But I resonated with them a lot. And they all talked about meditation. And they would say you need to meditate for 30 or 45 minutes. I would sit down to meditate. And it was like the dark circus rolled into town in my head, right? Like yeah, sitting there was really, really hard for me. It was unpleasant. I didn't like it. And so I might do 30 minutes for a day, a week, maybe a month, as long as I kept my motivation sky high. But when that motivation came down, which it inevitably does, I would quit. And this pattern repeated itself for decades. This is where little by little comes in and by little by little, I actually mean something fairly specific. Please toss. I mean low resistance actions done consistently over time in the same direction. Now what low resistance means will be different per person. There are people out there who sit down to meditate and immediately will tell you, I found it so peaceful. I'm like, okay, I've never felt found it peaceful. Now that's not true now. But back then I never did. So for that person, 30 minutes might be low resistance. But for me, 30 minutes was way too hard. So low resistance just means it's something that we will do. Done consistently over time means we keep doing it. And in the same direction, you know, we're sort of just doing a bunch of little things in all scattered directions doesn't lead to a lot. It just leads to a bunch of little things scattered all over the place. And so by doing this, by focusing on what we can succeed at, that's how we build confidence. Now I've coached a lot of people over the years. I used to describe myself as a behavioral coach. Maybe I still would. I don't know. But people come to me when you hire a coach to help you change a behavior. Let's just say it's safe to say you failed at that thing a whole bunch of times before you're willing to spend money for someone to teach you how to make a change. So the people coming to me do not believe in themselves. One of my core beliefs is that change is a skill. But we take it as a state of our character. I'm lazy. I'm undisciplined. I don't have enough motivation. And when we believe that and buy into it, you're right. Our motivation, our motivation is down. And we, we almost bring the thing into reality. At the same time, we can't BS ourselves. I can't say like, when I was writing my book, I couldn't be like, keep going, Eric, you're like the next time anyway. This is one of the best nonfiction books ever written. Right? Like my brain was mostly going like, has anyone written a more boring sentence in a county textbook? Right? Like, so I can't BS myself. So we can't believe that we're capable of achieving great things. But what we, at first, but what we can do is start from where we are, not where we wish we were, but start from where we are and measure success in ways that are reasonable and allow that to accumulate. So I want to just drill in a little bit more to that like low resistance piece because I think a lot of us have this high resistance piece in our head that is the, the first step. Like I have to have this giant thing. So how can we take that and like, make it into something smaller? Yeah. You're very perceptive in that because little by little, I mean, one thing is you just pick like you make the thing really small, but another way of applying little by little is you break something up into smaller pieces. So for me, I have the same issue on my task list. And when something on my task list keeps getting moved, it looks something more like this. Get video done for X project. That's the task. That is not a task. That is about eight different steps. I have to decide what am I talking about? Then I have to build the talk. Then I have to practice delivering it. Right. Then I have to work on memorizing it. And so when I look at my task list, very often what I have on there are sort of mini projects. Even something like get taxes done is a multi-step thing. I got to gather all the, this, that time of year, I got 10, 99s and all that stuff, you know, all kinds of different places in my house. I got to get them all gathered up. Right. I need to package it up. I need to get the books tied up and I got to send them to my account. I mean, there's a bunch of steps in it, but I call it get taxes done. And I see this in people all the time. And so, yeah, a way of doing little by little is to break it down. What is the literal first action in this process? We are strange creatures, right. In that our motivation and our ability to do things is, I wish it was better than it was. But for example, if I have to, if I've got call doctor, literally there are times that I have to say the first step I have to write down is find doctor's phone number. Right. I feel like an idiot. I'm like a behavior coach. I teach this to people. Basically I don't need to do that, but sometimes I do. You know, I shouldn't, it doesn't seem like I should have to trick myself into getting on the exercise bike by saying just put on your bike shoes. It seems like I should just go get on the bike. I've done it thousands of times. Every single time I've done it, I've been like, that was a great idea. Never once was I like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. You'd think it would be easy. You'd think with everything I know. And yet there are lots of days where that's exactly what it is. Go put on your bike shoes. We're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back. We are back. Okay. Can I give you one that's on my to be listening? Please. You'll help me figure it out. This is a real one. You know, there's the the famous saying is like, when's the best time to plant a tree? Right? 20 years ago, but the second best time is today. Yep. On my to do list for several weeks now, I've had plant a tree. Okay. And I get that this is, I'm like, this is the quintessential example of like I should have already done this. And if I'm, if not, I should do it today, but I keep putting it off. Because this is really genuinely has been on my to do list for almost two months now. One of the things that I often say is that ambiguity is the mother of procrastination. Right. So immediately when you say plant a tree, I have a bunch of questions that maybe you know the answer to, but if you don't are standing in the way, what kind of tree? I don't know. That's the way where are you going to plant it? Yep. Not positive. What are the tools you will need to plant it? Right? So where can I go plant a tree? Or even what kind of tree do I want to plant? But I even think where? That's the bigger question, right? Because I mean, I'm more or or less know I can get a tree from a nursery. I'm more or less know how to plant a tree. I can pick the tree, the variety itself. Once I know the spot because the spot's going to dictate like what kind of tree will grow well there. I genuinely think that even just the way you ask the questions of like what tree, where do you want it, what tools that that is answering those questions is it's making me realize that having a task that's actually a project is not a task, right? Like it's a, this is a series of tasks. The other thing about that though, and you you have a sense of humor about it and that's all good. But oftentimes we don't. We see that thing that sits there and we think what, what is wrong with me? Why can I not get this done? Like this is ridiculous. This should be an easy thing. Why am I not doing it? Which is we don't feel good about ourselves. Makes us less motivated, less capable. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. I've been pushing you on some of the practical actionable ways to make small changes and have those add up because I think those are really interesting and I think anyone who's listening can can apply those. The thing that I think is actually really special and different about your book is that it's not just about making changes, right? It is about how those changes are meaningful. It's about meaning in your life and purpose and identity. For people who haven't read the book yet, can you tell people a little bit about how those tie together into the meaning piece? There are two components we have to to figure out the first. is what I would call structural. It's the things we've been talking about. What am I doing? Where am I doing it? How am I doing it? But there's a second component that's really important, which means even when I know what to do, when to do it, let's just say we got it all figured out and you are going to go plant a tree tomorrow morning at 10 a.m., you've already got the tree, everything. 10 a.m. comes and you just sit there. And you go, I should plant the tree, but you don't do anything. You're just scrolling on your phone. 11 o'clock comes by, why haven't I planted the tree? Right? You just don't do it. You have all the plans, you have all the structural things lined up and you don't do it. Why? Well, that's almost always some sort of emotional or mental process gone wrong. You're feeling or thinking something at that moment that is stopping you from doing it. And so that's the second really important component of change is how do we work with that moment? There is an emotional element of all this also that we cannot discount, we are not robots. So the first half of the book kind of covers all that. The second half of the book are about things that I would say are mindsets that make change more meaningful, easier to do, and are actually valuable in and of themselves. So an example would be self-compassion. Besides stopping doing drugs, self-compassion, being kinder to myself inside is probably the biggest upgrade I've ever given myself. I spend a lot of time with myself as do you, with yourself, and not cohabitating with a jerk is a really big upgrade. But also, self-compassion turns out to be the way that we are much better able to make change. But I think the thing that I will say is, I am very much a realist, or as Hans Rosling would say, actually I'm a possibleist. But nonetheless, we could talk about that later another time. I still have voices that pop into my head that are shockingly negative. My point being that's some pattern that's wired somewhere into some synapses of my brain that just fires off. So I can't stop it from showing up. We can't often stop the first thing that arises in us because it's just conditioned. It's just, it's causing effect. What I can do though is what I do now, which is I hear it and I go, hang on a second. Like, you know, and I kind of laugh at it now. Because again, it's ridiculous to me. Because I'm not really feeling that. It's just something that happens. I think with self-compassion, we want to learn to relate to it in a similar way, which is that it's going to come back up. None of us are going to get to the point where when we make mistakes that we don't have some critical voice. We don't want to lose all ability to reflect on our actions. So for me, what happens when that sort of comes up and it's really strong is that I just go, oh, look, this thing is here again. 30 years I've been doing some form of recovery, inner work, all that stuff. Long time. Yeah. A couple years ago, I had something happen that thoroughly destabilized me, where I was like, I was really, really shook up and I just couldn't shake it off. And part of me was going, what is, what, I thought I did all this work. I thought I already covered all this. I thought we've already been through this. Like, what is it doing back here again? And a therapist I was talking to said something I thought was valuable and he just basically said, you know what you've done? Is you've expanded the range of things that you can handle without that happening? Right? That used to happen to you every three weeks and now it happens to you every 20 years. And so an analogy that I often think about with growth is it's like a spiral staircase. And if you imagine going up a spiral staircase where there are things on the wall, there are pictures on the wall, you keep coming back around to those same pictures. But ideally, you come around to them at a slightly higher level. You come around with a slightly different perspective. Maybe you have a little bit better light as you get higher up. Doesn't mean that if you've got a history of being really mean to yourself inside that that just goes away. But for you, the next time it comes up, you can relate to and go, oh, here I am again. All right, this is what my brain does. I don't like it. And I know how to talk to myself now in a way that I didn't know then. And I'm just going to do my best with it. And we do make progress, but it's not linear. It's much more as I'm describing like a spiral like that. I think maybe this is also a reason why the parable of the wolves speaks to you. But I'll just say maybe why it speaks to everyone is that the solution has to do with how you treat the wolves, not with banishing the wolves completely. Right? It's not like, it's like, oh, what I'm trying to do is get rid of these wolves inside me. That's what I need to do. I'm going to be well free instead. It's no, which one do you nurture? Yeah, grandfather's not like, well, what you do is you pull out a rifle. What you do is get a bear because the bear scares away both wolves and now you just have one bear. Exactly. That's not how it works. Yeah, these things are always with us. It's which do we give the attention and the energy to? Yeah, it's one of the things I love about the parable is it says we all have these things inside of us. The other thing that I think is interesting for me is I have meditated before, but it's not a daily thing for me. It's not a practice that I probably should do. I'm sure it would be helpful, but I haven't done it. But maybe I was, I was really surprised the first time that I meditated to hear that the goal was, but you know, they say like clear your mind or focus on your breath and nothing else. I was shocked when I learned that the goal was not to have a completely blank experience the whole time, but instead to notice when I went away and went somewhere else and to try and come back. Yeah. It was actually about finding the places where I stopped meditating and brought myself back. That blew me away. A hundred percent. You're never gonna have a completely quiet brain. It's not what brains do. I mean, if you're dead, you might have a quiet brain. Like completely quiet. And I'm not saying that meditation, you don't settle on different levels, but the brain is always doing something. Thoughts appear. It's not something we just turn off completely. And you're right. The heart of the process is just realizing, oh, I've gotten lost in thought again. Let me come back to where I am. The reason I bring that up is it feels like a lot of what we've talked about is you have the desire to get to this place where you're trying to be. But in fact, the muscle or the work of doing the return, like not being there, but finding you way back and maybe finding you way back more quickly or a little bit more easily or just finding you way back at all, that that is actually the point. It's not about getting to the perfect place. A hundred percent. And I have a whole section in the book where I talk about this where anything that we're going to do long-term, which is most things that we think are important. If you're gonna be healthier, if you're gonna eat better, if you're gonna meditate, if you're gonna write a book, if you're any of these things, they are a matter of something you just keep doing. Now maybe a book ends and then you're just a little period of time, but you're probably then creating something else. I mean, I read your book recently, and I mean, you've got a thousand irons in the fire, right? It's not like you finish it and you're like done, you're like, okay, that's done, but I still, I create, so I'm over here. It's part of why we're obsessed with habits. Because we want it to become easy, right? It's hard to keep making the right choices in life. It's effortful, and we want that effort to go away. We would just like to program the robot to just do all the right things from here on out, but we are not robots. - I think we have a culture that really pushes us to, how can you get the most done in the least amount of time? And that involves you cutting a lot of corners and getting places fast, which is actually maybe not the best for our growth and our learning, and for meaning, which is, again, this is what so much of the book is about. - Yeah, I think you're right. It is hard to know what we really want. We are creatures who have a great deal of motivational complexity, which just means we want a whole lot of things all at the same time. There's a lot of stuff swirling inside us. There's like values, then there's our desires, and then maybe there's needs, and there's just all of this, I call it motivational complexity, and I think about it like a soup. It's hard to tell why do I want this, or why do I want that? And so all we can do is make our best guess at what's important to us. But the challenge that we often face is, what do I want most versus what do I want now? And that fundamental question is a real way of orienting back towards meaning again and again. What do I want most? Now, the challenge here is that that's a sort of desire versus value conflict, right? We also run into values to values conflicts, and these are challenging. I really value my family and I really value my career. Those two things are going to be intention. They pull in different directions. And so I don't have the answer for how you resolve it because I don't think you can. But I think that by reflecting regularly, what do I want most, we're able to try and make the best decision that we can. And it's also why little by little applies here because we don't just get, we just don't choose once. I value my family over my career. I mean, how many parents have said this? A gazillion. Me, probably 100, 200 times when my son was younger. I'm really going to prioritize my family. I'm giving too much energy to my career. Great. That's probably true. But it's the day-to-day moment where I'm making the decision. Do I shut down the computer and walk out the door, even though my boss is in the office next door and go to my son's football game? Or do I sit here? And sometimes the answer is you shut down the computer and you go out the door and you go to your son's football game. There are other times that the answer is you stay in your office because there's something really important happening. And when we try and solve these things with big decisions, they don't work because life is always changing. So little by little is a way of asking ourselves again and again frequently and regularly what does matter? What's the wise response to this situation? But like you said, we wish it would all be figured out. We wish it would be done, sorted, and that's just not the way life is. Yeah, I think this is why I think your work is so powerful and interesting to me is because it really is in this way radical. We live in a society that really wants quick, definitive, once and done answers. We want the shake it and bake it, put it in the microwave, it's done for everything in our life. We love certainty, we love easy, quick answers. I mean, I do too. I believe very, so very deeply that they don't exist. And yet, I'll read something and I'll be like, maybe it is that easy. Maybe if I just took that program, I could reprogram all of my subconscious beliefs in a week and it would all be easy. And I know that's nonsense. And yet, I want it, we can't help but want it. Yeah. I mean, that's also what's funny about, like sometimes this show gets categorized as like a self-help or self-improvement podcast. And I'm not even saying that's wrong, but it's funny to me because I feel like the genre prides itself on like, these six tips will guarantee you sleep through the night every night for the rest of your life. And I'm like, wow, I tried those and I still kind of woke up at two. So I must be broken. Like, what? Why is it not working 100% of the time? Yeah, I think that's a really important point is the problem with quick answers and easy solutions is one, they don't work for us. But I think the bigger problem is often that when they don't work for us, we conclude that we are the problem. Right? If you say at six easy steps and this person's been on 30 podcasts and their podcast has 100 million downloads and they say, you just need to do those four things and you do those four things and you're not different. What do you conclude? Most of us don't conclude, oh, life's not that simple. Most of us don't conclude, oh, wait, I'm complicated. I might be different than the average. Like we conclude, there's something wrong with us. And that's really problematic because the more that we think that something's wrong with us, the less we have the ability to hope in our ability to change, in our ability to live the life we want to live. And it's back to this idea that I believe in so strongly is that that changes the skill. We can learn to do it, but we are not all the same. Right? When I coached people, there were some people who were so hard on themselves that what I had to do was be like, all right, we have got to lighten up. We've got to relax. You've got to give yourself a lot of grace and slack. There were other people who took no accountability for what they did. Those people I needed to say, we got to, like we need to be a little more firm with ourselves, right? Completely different advice. But those were different people in a different place. And so with all advice, I think we need to take it on board and go, okay, does this fit with me? Does this work? Does this is this helping? Instead of one size fits all advice, I think there are principles that are useful. I've attempted in this book to lay out what I think are a lot of principles. But if you look at my story, going to treatment, long-term treatment is a pretty radical big step. But I was a homeless heroin addict. I needed a radical big step. And even within that, it was the little, you know, each day that I chose not to walk out of the treatment center. But it's not to say, like what's small for me might be, you might need a bigger change. There's no rules, I guess, is the point. Eric Zimmer, thank you so much for being on the show. Your book, How A Little Becomes A Lot, The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life, is such a wonderful accomplishment. I really recommend people read it. And I think that we need a world where everyone has read this book. So I hope that as many people as possible do read it. Thank you so much, Chris. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. I really enjoy it. That is it for today's episode of How To Be A Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Eric Zimmer. You can listen to his podcast, The One You Feed, and read his new book How A Little Becomes A Lot. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, How Laughing More Can Make You Present Creative, Connected and Happy, is out now too. You can find out more about my live show dates and other projects at christuffycomedy.com. How To Be A Better Human is Put Together By A Team Lead By Two Wolves. One wolf works for Ted and the other works for PRX. According to the Ted Wolf, we've got the loop-indane yellow ballerizo, band band Chang Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Boanini, Lainey Lani, Lot, Tanza Kasung Manivong, Antonio Le and Joseph DeBrien. Ryan Lash hunted down this video, and this episode was fact-checked by Mateo Salas, who howls at anything that is less than the truth. On the PRX side, our pack of producers roaming the audio hillsides includes Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks to you for listening. Please do one small action for us and send this episode to someone who you think would enjoy it. We will be back next week with even more How To Be A Better Human. Until then, take care. Awh!