Walking with Your Ancestors - A Conversation with Grandmother Redhawk

I have a great spider story. Oh, wonderful. Please share that. That one of the, I had a infestation of spiders in my house way back when I had children. And the spiders would only bite me in my youngest son, nobody else in the house. And then he graduated high school and left home. So it was just me. And because I don't spray, and I don't kill spiders, I take them outside, you know. And I moved from Atlanta to Charlotte. And I thought, oh, I'm free. But then they showed up in Charlotte. So evidently, the eggs were in the furniture or something. And I was at a women's gathering. And I was talking to this woman. She said, well, why don't you ask them what they want? And I said, I know that. Why didn't I think of that? And so I went home and did a little ceremony and asked them what they wanted. Can they quit biting me and I haven't been bitten? Because that went on for about 15 years. Wow. So they communicate very well with us humans if you listen. I believe that. I have a love for an appreciation for spiders. And we always do our best to get them outside. You know, we don't kill them or put them outside. But I'm not exaggerating when I say, I think almost every time I'm about to connect with you, there is a spider that shows up. And this spider has been walking around my window since I sat down in preparation here. And even the last time we met, I think I said something about a spider that I don't even remember what it was or why I even shared it with you. But now I know. Yeah. And what is that meaning of spiders? You've shared it with me before. I guess I connect with it with this a hopey creation story. Then Grandma of the Spider wove the web that created the universe that everything was attached to. All the stars and all the, you know, the food, all the planets were attached in her web that she wove to create the universe. That makes sense that I would see spiders whenever I'm about to connect with you. Right. Hi, and welcome to "Ruted in Purpose with Jess and Tamara," a podcast for women who are ready to stop playing small and start living with bold intention. I'm Jess, and I'm Tamara. Today, we are so excited and honored to welcome at Trish Hurley, also known as Grandmother Redhawk, a seasoned plant spirit healer with over 20 years of experience based in the Asheville area, trained under West African shaman, Maladoma Patrice Somay, and classical five element acupuncturist, Elliot Cohen, she brings a deep reverence for ancient healing traditions to her work. As a sacred pipe carrier in the bear tribe tradition and water pour for the stone people's lodge, grandmother Redhawk offers healing pipe, crystal, and feather healing ceremonies. Her practice is rooted in the wisdom of the daguerra people of West Africa using elemental divination to offer spiritual insight and clarity. Grandmother also serves as the resident elder at medicine wheelway, a non-profit in Fairview, North Carolina founded by Lumbie elder Black Crow, whose mission is to provide the greater community with a sacred space for indigenous ceremony, celebration, and cultural preservation. In the shamanic tradition, she leads journeys to connect with spirit allies and her plant spirit healing sessions, tap into the sacred essence of plants to support deep transformation. Her work honors ancestral ways and empowers individuals to remember their true connection to nature, spirit, and self. Get ready for a conversation that's raw, real, and full of heart. Grandmother Redhawk, welcome to the show. - Well, thank you very much. I am, again, both honored and excited to have Grandmother Redhawk with us today. I have been truly blessed to both know and work with Grandmother for a few years now. She is my teacher, friend, and an undeniable expression of wisdom and love. So today we're discussing what it means to find purpose with the help of your ancestors. To get us started, Grandmother, can you give us a little insight into who our ancestors are and the importance of connecting with them? - Well, I'm my teaching. Our ancestors are everybody to be real honest. But in order to connect with the ancestor world, it's really important to acknowledge the beings that gave you this earthwalk, gave you this body. So when I enter into a conversation with the ancestors at my altar, I'll always acknowledge my mother and my father and my grandparents. But I always say go all the way back to the original Grandmother and grandfather. So that allows anybody in the ancestor world permission to work with me. 'Cause sometimes, you know, it's an ancestor's five or six generations back that you don't have a name for. And sometimes it's actually yourself in that incarnation too, it gets kind of a stout linear. It's a little more like your dream time. Things just move around as they choose to interact with you. But in order to be polite, you wouldn't be here having this conversation if your parents hadn't allowed you access to this world. So you acknowledge them when you open up the ancestor world to talk. So connecting with ancestors begins by engaging with your parents 'cause without them, we would not be here on this earthwalk, but then also it goes back further. It goes like generations and generations and generations and generations ago. Something I appreciate what you said is that this will want to be polite, want to be polite in that going and asking is how you invite that presence and the wisdom of those that came before us into our lives to help guide us on this walk that we're in, this human walk, this human journey for spiritual beings on this human journey. - Right, exactly. And it's just important to recognize that all cultures from the beginning of time have always walked with the ancestors. It was just taken away during the Roman invasion into Europe and supplanting their system on the people of Europe. So if you'll deal with the Chinese now and any other culture, they still deal with the ancestors. It's we really need to bring it back. Because of European cultures, the one that's navigating the whole world right now and affecting it. And that was one of the things that my teacher, Malodoma said that the European ancestors are angry because they've been forgotten. And it's really very important for Western people to understand and start working with that energy, that creative energy that allows them to help us and guide us. It's just magic when you engage them in a way to help you. Now you can ask for help, you can ask for direction, you can actually go cry and complain and vent. As if they were still here, you know, you can share your everyday everything with them. The thing that I find is that they've been very helpful. When I'm in a pickle about something, that if I take it to them, and I have a plan to work at, you always have to have a plan. You always have to be proactive 'cause we're co-creating. That's right. And once you start on your journey to resolve something or create something, and it rolled them into helping you, it usually turns out better than you ever plan 'cause you don't have as much information as they do. So you're end up going this direction, all of a sudden you're over here. And it's so much better than you could have planned 'cause you didn't know enough to plan it that way. But it's a kind of a co-creative journey with your ancestors. It can be very magical and it can be very comforting in trying times. It's just 'cause that's part of you in line. - Grandmother, what you said is, it's so, it amazes me that I haven't looked at it with this perspective yet. So you talked about thinking your mother and your father for actually allowing you to have this walk on the earth. I thanked my parents who have passed away many times for many things, but I don't think that I ever thanked them for exactly that. And I certainly, since they have passed on, I have talked to them. I have asked for their guidance, for their support, for their strength, but I have never gone beyond sort of that immediate part of my family. And it never occurred to me to speak to my ancestors and to look to them for comfort and guidance. And I don't know why that had never occurred to me, but that in itself is a revelation for me already in this conversation. Now, it's kind of like dealing with them as if they're still here in many ways. You know, if you had a bad day, you might go cry on mom's shoulder. If you're having a tough time, you might go to daddy and ask him for help in resolving something. And so you keep that connection going in an energetic way, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense when we think in linear terms about how can I have been my own ancestor. For five generations back, I had that life and now it's in my still, in my lineage. And now I'm here, but that's also true. It's like you could have had a lifetime that's very similar to this one. You see it a lot of times when people do past life, you know, where they were killed for doing something outside the mainstream acceptance. And then they come back in this lifetime and they're fearful about speaking about their beliefs again because of having been, but sometimes that's the ancestor that's working with you from that lifetime. And it's just not as linear as we think on earth, shall I say. And often the linear we're thinking is forward, not back. Right. That was another thing. I really heard the concept you could heal your lineage forwards and backwards. I said, that just doesn't make sense. I don't understand that. But in working with the ancestors, I understand it now. I have a couple of grandfather's that were not really nice men on this earthwalk, but they were a product of that generation. How men were, how they could be, and how it was okay to be the way they were. But I know in retrospect that they're beautiful human beings on a spiritual level. And so what I found is that see my grandfather's in a way that's loving and comforting and understanding and forgiving. I get that I help them on their next journey through here, or if they just stay in the answers to the world of being healed in some way. And it's like it brings back a memory because my father's grandfather was kind of a mean guy. He was a man's man type thing. In prohibition, he made his whiskey. He farmed. He was tough. He could beat up anybody, that kind of guy. And I remember being really afraid of him from the time I got here. But later on in life, my father was the only one left from his first marriage. And he remarried and had three more children. Well, when one of the children from his second marriage had a child, I saw him put the little girl on his lap and smile and talk with her. It confused me to death because I saw him as this evil being. But I did see a glimpse of his sweetness there. And that picture, that incident stayed with me forever. Like, how can this mean man be this way with this little girl? And so that helps me know that I could touch that part of him as an ancestor. And he doesn't have to go through all this again. He can come back and be a loving man or a woman, whatever he likes. Beautiful story. And I think we find sometimes that people do change in their second act or their third act and be able to learn from mistakes, wrongdoings and find sort of forgiveness on a way forward. Grandmother, can you share a little bit about, you've talked a little bit about your upbringing, but you're upbringing in a significant moment that you felt connected to your ancestors. Well, I was raised on a farm in the Midwest. And I didn't really know it at the time, but I'm pretty multicultural. I just thought I was a small town white girl living on a farm. But after I've grown up and looked at the family, the Native American, Spanish, maybe even Aztec. I mean, there's just a big mix in there when you go back and start looking. And I, my first six years on Earth, I was just with my parents on the farm. It's not like living in a small town where you have neighbors and other people dealing with you. You know, all the neighbors are a mile or so away and they'll help with you call them, but they are not in your space. And so I was kind of, parents didn't have a lot of do's and don'ts except, you know, respectful things, you know. You had to be respectful, you didn't steal, you didn't hurt anybody, that kind of thing. But there was no religious teaching, there was no, my teachers were nature. And so for my first six years, it was just my sisters and my parents, I didn't have any outside influence. And so when I entered public school, it's six years old. It was a nightmare. Being away from parents and being with those others that, you know, were always outside of my world. But that was a real awakening that a lot of the things that I was used to, things that, because I remember, you know, floating above the table, looking at us, eating dinner and, you know, just being in communication with the plants and the animals and whatever. And all of a sudden I had to stop that. I could not fit in with that world doing that kind of thing. So I shut a lot of my, I guess spiritual stuff down at that time. So it took years for me to get back there. And I think at the age of 26, I had a really bad automobile accident, had a near death experience and all of a sudden I was faced with all that knowing and that connection that I, I couldn't explain because in that day and age, there was no internet, there was no, nothing going on that would speak to what was in the unseen world in my, in my universe. And so I, I gradually started bringing it back at the age of 26. And the teacher started showing up, yeah, first of all, my native American heritage was the first thing that led me into doing spiritual work and connecting with that knowledge. And it's just like, the spirit's been guiding my path from the beginning, yeah, I guess I had to become the wild child in my early 20s to experience the world. And then come back into leaving it together with my spiritual work. Something you mentioned earlier was how you had connected with your grandfather's by catching the glimpse of one of your grandfather's with the little girl and how it kind of reminded you that there is sweetness in him. And something that it kind of made me think of is that even when our parents are, you know, we may not have the best relationship with all of our current on earth ancestors, right [BLANK_AUDIO] the our lineage here on earth, our family, you know, you speak, you can speak to their essence, like their divinity, who they are, right, but beyond the behavior and the actions and catch those glimpses of sweetness or call to them. After your accident, was there anything that returned to you from when you were younger traditions or rituals? Oh, yes. I think the connection with nature speaking to me. It's like one of my first experiences as an adult was when I got together with my husband Larry and we, he wanted this garden in the backyard and at the end of our yard was a 56 acres of woods between us in an industrial park and there was a beautiful tulip popular tree that shaded the corner of his garden in the mid afternoon and he wanted to cut that tree down and tree did not want to be removed and it kept saying don't let him, don't let him. And so I for the first time said to an adult person in my life as an adult that the tree is talking to me and the tree does not want to be cut that please. And he listened and he didn't cut it down and it kept growing and growing but time I started having grandchildren in the spring that tulip popular flowers would fall and they would bring me the flowers and stuff. So I just always had a real connection with the tulip popular because of that. But growing up it was maple trees, silver maple trees had them all over the yard. I would client, we had big two apple trees and a peach tree and some plum trees and I would spend my days sitting in them. It's like I say they don't have a complicated long dialogue conversation. They just are, they share what they are and they share what's connecting you to them at the moment and it's it's simple. At one time my husband and I were hunting in the north Georgia mountains and we'd always separate and go different directions before sunrise and he would always hunt from a tree stand in the tree so he was permanent for the day and I'd always come from the ground so I would be able to move around so he would tell me to come find him see if I could scare up something on my way to him. You know I'm noon or so and I would do that and that's how I would find him all the time was a tree use would guide me to where he was. You know I'd come to a place like do I go this way or that way and they say this way and it was it's not really a conversation like ours but it's like they tell you what and you know you listen and I'm just wondering around in the woods like that because I can't anymore but it's like all of us know that our dogs talk to us and we hear what they say a lot and sometimes you know with mammals and stuff like they have a trees plants of the same wine they share the information you need to know you know they're not chitty chatty with a lot of conversations like us they have their way but they share what they need to share with us they do. Such a powerful insight and even as you're speaking to this I'm staring at my 3F3 large trees in my front yard and there's been moments where we thought we'd had to you know where it's been presented to us to cut them down or to to cut into their roots and I cannot do it I cannot do it it brings me to tears even thinking about it and I just I love them so much and I just think this is such a powerful conversation because in today's world we don't often consider the life within the nature that surrounds us and it's just it's when you get to a certain place in life you begin to see how wild that is to just not even consider the life that is around us and even and you know this as well and in other cultures when they cut down a tree and many cultures many digest cultures they cut down a tree they don't just cut it down they offer they talk to it they explain why they go to the tree and they say we have to cut you down this is why this is what you're being used for and then they give an offering of like tobacco or whatever it might be flowers you know and it's it's an exchange it's an acknowledgement of this the connectedness the interconnectedness that we we have yes definitely exactly it's like since I've moved into this house we've been here about 20 years the trees have grown so big and tall and towering you know now they were I thought they were big when we moved in but now they're huge and I just talk to them keep my house safe you know don't follow me take care of me welcome them yeah I just don't want to listen to the people who say you need to cut down the trees next to your house to protect your house I ask the trees to protect the house and not to harm us in any way so far so good and also with the I'm sorry I just want also with the hurricane that we just experienced here in North Carolina Western North Carolina Hurricane Helene last almost a year ago that was another thing that really touched me with these trees is that they I just thanked them so much and it sounds just like what you did just acknowledging that they didn't fall on us and asking them to protect us it's wonderful and anyone can do that yes so the trees that did come down on the property were away from the house and I cried because I was a couple of poppers I had an oak went down but they were all away from the house me so I think it yeah clearing some sun for some of the trees I guess that's it makes me think too of just the the interconnectedness of nature we actually visited the Toronto Zoo here yesterday and it really struck me and it's so sad when you look at the the endangered spectrum and you see that as a result of what we have done to nature and how we have taken nature as our own to own and to cut down and log and take away from these critical habitats for the wildlife around us and now you see even you know maps where it shows where these species used to be in the world and now they're confined to this small little portion of one island and how it is almost inevitable without a significant efforts to preserve that species and just how these you know one by one they are being taken away from us and all because of the actions that we take and the lack of respect that we have for the nature around us it's exactly you know because the thing I don't know if humanity is going to wake up and time I know things go extinct and in the environment that it's not because of misuse you know the world changes organically and certain plants and animals disappear hence the dinosaurs but it was organic it was not because we abused it just I know there's so many people awakening and thinking this way but I don't know it seems like the powers to be those people are not in places of power so I'm not sure where we're going from here but I know nature is resilient if we stop doing certain things it can come back all on its own if we just stop doing some of the destructive things that we do through we saw that during the pandemic you know different different species of fish and and the other wildlife that thrived when sort of left to their own left to their own without we as humans impacting their the course of nature. Grandmother, have you ever felt a purpose or calling that seemed to come from beyond your own experience as if it was passed down? I would say a lot of what I'm doing right now feels like it was called not my plan. It's like I specifically I guess when I started doing divinations went to melodoma for a divination. I think I had three of them with them over a period of time and what he said to me was that I was doing this and doing this and doing this because I was you know pot carrier sports wet lodges and was doing plants for medicine and things like that and he says but your people need to have counsel with someone that can help them through things. Somebody you need to be able to talk with your people you need to be able to help them and he says and I don't know how you're going to do that unless you learn to divine he said that's a that's a great way to be able to help your people and he says I don't know how you can do that unless you study with me and it didn't sound like he was selling sounded like he was just sharing so that's what inspired me to sign up and study with him. I was called indigenous spiritual techno African indigenous spiritual technology. It was a over a year and a half five or six sessions that divination was part of it. There were other things that were part of it. There were rituals for the five elements. There was a talisman making. There was all kinds of stuff that we did but divination was part of it and when I finished the course Black Crow was my connection because she had done the course two the year before and she invited me to do a healing night at church in Hendersonville and I said well okay I don't know any of these people so this will be interesting. See what happens but from there it just took off. I didn't advertise, I didn't go out looking for it, I didn't try to make it happen. It was just organic so I guess that's a perfect example of Malodoma seeing what I needed and inspiring the seed to grow and soon as I finished the world showed up and it's a great way to help people. It's a great way to get people connected with their ancestors. And it's kind of magical really sometimes when I'm doing it I's like wow because I bring in all my ancestors I bring in a lot of helpers from nature and the spirit world on an invocation before I start. So I was kind of like channeling I guess to a certain extent. So whatever question is asked of me and where they spread the items in my divination hit around tells me a story and it always seems to click and they understand what it's being said from what I'm reading to them. So I know it's really a connection with the spirits. I'm just a channel. I love what you said about its organic and the world showed up and I was smiling because Jess and I talk about that often about how magical it can be when you just allow and you know always a combination of you're taking action just as you did and you were learning and your practices but then really just letting go and allowing things to evolve and grow as they were as they were meant to. Right it's not like the Western world you advertise and get a letter behind your name or a certificate or something and then you start selling yourself I just cannot do those kind of thing. Spirit has to do it. Yes and spirit is doing it and I also love one of the things we talk out often it comes up it seems to be a theme or a common experience is that we are it's embracing the unknown. It's saying yes with the tools you've been given the tools that you've engaged with yourself or picked up or said yes to and then take showing up with that even if you don't know how it's going to turn out. I mean I just think it's amazing that you met Black Crow of Black Crow you came together spirit brought you together to do that first initial work and then now I mean how many years ago was that and we're still working together. Right you know she's been a great medicine partner and allowing me to show up and share my work and share my medicine and I'm bet her because she had already done Malodomas of course previous class in Asheville and so she would show up as a support person every so often and so I got to know her through that and somehow we just connected and she spirit brings up people together to make things happen just like you were brought into medicine way your making things happen. Yeah some honored it is it's a beautiful weaving together of it's just awesome I have chills and so it just makes me smile those are listening I'm just smiling so big because it's so true that everything can fall naturally in just as grandmother said that you don't have to advertise yourself or sell yourself if you're just walking in that space of connection and with the acknowledgement even that you are a co-creative force you are you are in this co-creative relationship then everything you could need will be provided with the spirit with the help of ancestors and all those sacred energies that surround you. Grandma there you had mentioned that I did bring up earlier how your your grandfather's how you caught a glimpse of them or that was your one grandfather with a little girl and that they weren't very nice men on the earth walk with you what role does forgiveness play when it comes to healing ancestral wounds and making that connection with your ancestors you know in pursuit of purpose like in pursuit of of gaining that guidance and help and wisdom and just having that overall relationship with them well that's kind of looking at the culture they were raised in the things that they came up in that we're okay ways of being then that are not okay you know we've evolved to a place where if you are that way your ostracized or hidden or punished so it's like looking at something that I think is okay today that might not be okay 50 years from now and knowing that his intent was not to be evil his intent was not to be a bad guy he was okay because that was the way it was you know so just forgiving them because of not knowing or not having a culture or a place around them they've talked them a different way of being it's like you can look at history over and over again about the awful atrocities that have happened but then when you watch the thread of the beautiful things that happened along with those type of terrible humanity things something sometimes comes out of it I guess just speaking on a personal level because both my mother and my father lost their mother's at early age my mother was a lot two years old I think my father was five or six and because of that they had this bond that nobody was going to raise their children but them such created this total safe place for their children that they brought into the world not safe from the outside but safe from mom and dad being anything but loving and caring and taking care of them and as a child growing up and that I just took it for granted they're going to be there we say go away sometimes yeah but there was never any fear of I I don't ever remember, I remember my father and mother arguing, but there was never any name calling, there was never any violence, there was just a disagreement on the subject. And my mother might go away muttering, but she would speak her mind, then go away muttering. And my father was just really a sweetheart, and unlike his father, and his father was alcoholic. And my father was a T totaler, you know, those kind of things that come from bad experiences can bring about good things, sad to say, but that's where it goes. So that role of forgiveness is one of really just acknowledgement that many of those that came before us, they grew up in a different time. Yeah, different experiences, different values that were not kind, you know, it was a patriarchal world, you know, men got away with a lot of stuff, you know, there was no, you couldn't call somebody if your husband beats you, you were just had to take it, you know, that's the way it was for many women in that day and age. And it's not okay now, you can look back on it and be sad about it, but you can look back on it and see that it created my kind of mother and father for me. I think part of my ability to forgive came from the fact that I didn't give my children that safe space that I had growing up, they got exposed to violence in the world and people because I became a single mother, you know, had an abusive relationship with a partner for a while. And so my children didn't have that safe place that I had growing up. So forgiving yourself, so if you forgive yourself from your mistakes and that's always much more difficult than forgiving other people, but to realize my lack of, I guess growing up in society at a very early age, you know, I took it on later on in life that I didn't always have the tools to see what my children were having to deal with. So okay, so forgive yourself for your lack of knowledge, forgive yourself for your lack of being present to what you believe in, actually, you know, you believe in being nice, you believe in being kind, you believe in being protective, you believe in being a good mother, you know, it's kind of things. Well, where I feel here, I feel here, I feel here, so it's forgiveness. And maybe because my children are still loving and forgiving too, for me that helps. Still connected, have children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and you know, I have a huge family. And just being a part of that family bond, and says, okay, I can forgive myself for my stupidity. And we all survived, and we're all great together, yeah. So that goes back to the grandparents, and forgiving them, because of their lack of knowledge, ignorance, and upbringing, yeah, just this revenge and this holding everybody accountable, it's like there's a term in the mankind project that my husband belongs to, about wound worshipping, just stop worshipping your wound and dealing with your wounds, all your life, you know, everything it has to do with how you were wounded, no, deal with it, acknowledge it, and move on and create something else, quit worshipping, all that wound. I'll just stop you, it slows you down, that's good wound worshipping. That's interesting, that's good. And ask, and you can still ask for guidance and help, and see what the next thing is, and staying on track with your purpose, right, more focus on the magic you can create, the medicine you can do, the people you can help, the, you can help them see how to get past some of their things, and see their magic, see their beauty, and you can focus on that, and I have to be a better, better place. The others always being accountable and right and wrong, and should I shit, no, no, no, just look at it, see what it created, see how it affected you, see it, how it affected people around you, and make another choice, and start moving into your listening to the unseen world, listening to the ancestors, listening to the spirits, and create something positive. Not keeping score is what I'm hearing a lot of it, and I, I enjoy, you said grandmother about the forgiveness of ourselves being sometimes the, well, I think always the hardest part, and I know with my kids there are mistakes that I have made, many mistakes, and what I've found sort of helpful, as they've gotten older, they're 22 and 26 now, is really just acknowledging with them, with open heart the mistakes that I made, and, you know, that I didn't, I didn't, I didn't understand, I seek now to better understand some of the issues that they, they go through, we're all humans going through human experience, but I ask for their forgiveness now, and just acknowledge that I was, you know, I didn't have a guidebook, I was trying to do the very best that I could, I know now in hindsight that there were so many times that I went exactly the wrong way for what they needed, and I know that that injured them, I acknowledge that that will be influential for them, for, you know, probably the rest of their life, but that I'm just aiming now to do better, and be better, and understand better, and, and just to be the best parent that I, that I possibly came to them, and support them now in a way that I did not in past. Boy, that was a lot of soul bearing there, but it's absolutely, you're saying I do understand that, yeah. I do too, and I'm sure, and many, many, many listeners will all so many women, I think struggle with that, and it's, yeah, we're all, we're all in this together, but honestly, the honesty that you're sharing though, the honesty of that, having that acknowledgement with them, I think is makes the difference, it's just being honest about who we are, and who they are, and what we must have, and what we hope to do better at. Right? That's the important. And sometimes when you have those conversations with your children about, 'cause I was just, I'm so sorry, yeah, that was so stupid, I don't know why I let that happen, you know, it's like, and they say it's okay, it's okay, I learned from it, like, you know, I grew from them, and them forgiving you helps you forgive yourself. Yeah, and I have that kind of relationship with my children, they're forgiving too, you know. Yeah, they certainly are, and I think that's something that I've learned as I, probably one of the greatest learnings, as I've aged, so I don't even know how old I am, 62 I think it is. But it's really acknowledging the acknowledgement of when you make a mistake, has been so liberating to me later in life, I think when we're, sometimes when we're younger, we feel like we sort of need to have that shell and that boundary that is not acknowledging, we don't want to have that vulnerability, we stay away from that vulnerability of where we have weaknesses, where we make mistakes, and it is so freeing to be able to acknowledge where we would have made different choices, and to be able to own that and just say, yeah, I'm going to, yeah, didn't do that the way I would have wanted to, but now I'll just try to, try to do better, try to be better. And speaking of generations, so we've talked grandmother about, you know, really acknowledging our ancestors and be able to deepen our relationship, how do you think our generation and the generations to follow can deepen our relationship with ancestors in a world that often move so fast and is looking. forward versus back. Well, I find putting dealing with the ancestors into a ritual habit, putting an ancestor alter somewhere in your home. An ancestor alter can be anything you want. You know, if you come from a tradition that teaches you how to do an ancestor alter, that's fine. If you don't, to me, it's just having a place I designate as my ancestor alter in the house. You can have a beautiful cloth on it. You don't have to have pictures of the ancestors because ancestor altars have been around a lot longer than photography. But if you want pictures, that's okay too. You have a beautiful vase. You can have stones, you can put flowers, you can, you know, you can design it whatever you want. But what you're doing is opening up a portal in your house that is designated to communication with your ancestors. So when you come to your ancestor alter, what I do is light a candle because their realm is fire. And in Malodone's tradition, and this is kind of where my ancestor alter comes from, his tradition. So light a candle, I'll burn some sage or some incense to clearly make pretty energy in the space and not negative energy. And then I'll, you can ring a bell, shake a rattle, drum, tap whatever you want to do, and announce yourself and call your parents. Anybody that's crossed over, you know, if your parents are still here, you wouldn't call them by name because that's asking them to, pushing them into the ancestor world. So don't do that. So if you start with your grandparents or whoever has crossed over and out yourself with your full name, call them by name. And then I always say go all the way back to the original grandmother and grandfather. So anyone in the ancestor realm energy has permission to work with you. And make it a kind of a daily thing. It doesn't, you know, there's no punishment for not doing out every day. But go to your ancestor alter to start your day or before you go to bed at night. Yes, just kind of make it a thing of checking in with them, what you need, or give thanks, whatever's on the agenda today. Make it a working relationship. And so they can help you create things, fix things, comfort you when there's, you know, sad things going on. And also a place where you can give thanks for great stuff that happens. And you know, they were part of that also, you know. So it's like dealing with somebody on earth, you know, any kind of energy you put into the ancestors are like working with Jessica and Black Crow, you know, I put energy into doing my stuff with them. And we grow a relationship. It's the same way with the ancestors and the ancestor world work of relationship with them. So you're making things happen together. I'd love that. The whole idea of the working relationship and working that relationship. And just it sounds so organic, so natural to check in, what do we need today, what do I need, or just express gratitude. And as you were describing it, grandmother, it sounded so comforting to me. And I just can't wait to to create that ancestor altar for myself as well. So thank you. A lot of the things that Malodoma said about talking with the ancestors. You don't have to be pious and sweet and humble. He says, you can yell at them. If you're upset, you can shout. You know, he said, just be in your space with them. And they'll work with you. Thank you. I love that so much because I just, I just think it's so easy to forget that we just, there is so much energy that surrounds us. Ancestors included that were never really alone, were never truly alone. And there are times whenever we do feel alone and we can talk to nature, we can bring that pain to the earth and we can invite, you know, what exists beyond our physical eyes to help. And so I'm just so, I'm so thankful for you to you for sharing this with us and encouraging us and our listeners to engage with, with the life around us. Earlier, you told a story about spiders. And, and you said, one of the things you said is that when you were sharing the story about how the spiders they'd kept kind of following you and someone in one of your group, the women's group, had said, well, why don't you ask them what it is that they need or what it is that they want from you. And your response was kind of like, I know that. I knew that already. Like, you know, why didn't I think of that? So it brings me this question of, is there a, is there a wisdom that that you receive that's similar to that that you find yourself kind of returning to again and again? And it's kind of like, I knew that. But that your ancestors help or that, you know, having that portal, having that ancestors for all turn, having that connection helps you to kind of remember. I think that's part of what the ancestors do. And sometimes it's just like that woman saying that somebody will say something to you. I know that. You reminded me. And there's always that statement, you know, when you're ready, the teacher shows up. When you're ready to hear this, somebody will say something that opens that door or somebody shows up as a teacher to guide you into a, you know, a place that you're planned on. When you got here, that you are not aware of at that moment, you know, and they open that door. But that's, that's how life is if you're walking with your purpose. And so many people say, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know what my purpose is. But your purpose is just exactly what you've been doing. And it's just about becoming more conscious of how all of that fits together. You know, sometimes we come to be the best mother we have ever been. It's not about being out in the world. It's about being with family, you know, where we come to be a scientist, you know, and so family doesn't play a big role in our life. It's, it's really about, I guess trusting and being in acceptance of what's going on in your world and being conscious with it. Don't want to be something that you're not. You know, so I'm going to our Western society teaches us all this worship of famous, powerful people. And so we start trying to be like that. And that's not who we are. Yeah. Be powerful in who you are. You never know. You might be the one person who says something. This is one of my favorite stories. During the time when women were fighting for the right to vote over and over again, you know, they were turned down. And they finally got the amendment passed, but it had to be ratified by more than half of the states. And so it was down to they needed one more state to ratify it to make it a law that women could vote. And they were all Southern states that hadn't voted on it yet. I can't remember if it was Kentucky or Tennessee. I think it was Kentucky. There was a young Republican senator who'd been home visiting his mother that weekend before they made the vote. And she said, you do right by the women and let them have a vote. And so he voted for it. And it was passed. That one man that one vote finalized all the work that was done before that you never know what you're going to do. If you come from your integrity, come from your purpose. I love that story. Yeah, me too. I love that story. As young man made the all the difference in the world for us and to stay in age. Coming from integrity and purpose. It's beautiful. You've spoken grandmother about the ancestor altar. But if you could pass on one message to the next generation about connecting with and receiving guidance from their ancestors, what would it be? It's really about trusting what you're feeling in here. hearing and sort of questioning, questioning, questioning, validating, validating, validating. And trusting that they are working with you, patients. I had, this is one of my ancestor gifts, I guess. We live in an area where it's a lot of rain. It's really an ancient rain forest that we've cleared out, but we still get a lot of rain here. And I was having some problem with the foundation of my house. The stone part was fine, but the wood mix to the stone foundation was starting to rot from the water accumulating under the house. And I started noticing the floor separating from the wall near the refrigerator where the weight of a refrigerator was causing the rotting to show up inside the house. And so I started taking that to my ancestor altar. Helped me create the finance to fix my house. Helped me create the finance to fix my house every day. I would take that. And my man needs to come up with about $10,000, five of it from insurance and another five from an automobile accident that I was not really injured in, that got a little money from. But it still wasn't enough to complete the job. And because my husband was working with Amin's mentoring group, two of his brothers stepped up and finished it. I didn't ask for that. I wouldn't know to ask for that. I wouldn't think to ask for that. But because ancestors were involved in it, they created my house fixed through an avenue I didn't know about. So that was definitely ancestors. So I would say trust. Say what you want and trust. And if it takes a year to make something happen, it would be stay the course. Great guidance. Thank you. Great guidance for all of us. All right. But you know, they comfort you. They help teachers to show up that you need along the way or experiences that you need. It's like I didn't plan to work with Black Crow and medicine real way, but it happened. And I love it. And it seems to be the path that was chosen for me. And from there, other things open up. And it's just about showing up. Pamela, thank you so much for taking time to share your story and insights with us. Before we go, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners? Talk with nature. Talk with the animals. Talk with the insects. Talk with them. They really, if you come to any of the world of nature authentically and with, I guess what I'm thinking of is, I went through a period of time where I was getting stoned by hornets. And I think I started developing an allergy. And it was scary. But I did the same thing I did with spiders. I said, OK, guys. I said, you need to take your hives away from my house and I won't bother you because I was trying to get rid of them. And I said, if you'll move them, I won't bother you. And all of a sudden, all hornets disappeared. And I saw a huge one up by the fence between us and the farm. But I guess they all moved into the big one together. And so I share that because you just need to talk with the plants and the animals and the insects and listen. They'll work out and agree with you. We do it with dogs, maybe. But everything is that way. The trees, the flowers. Now, it's like I had a hokeweed that showed up that I didn't want in my weed garden. That's what I call it. And because they spread like crazy. And so I went out and I talked to the pokeweed. And I said, you can have one as a guard to the interest to the garden, but no more. So for two or three years, one showed up every year. And then all of a sudden, there was a second one. And I said, OK, well, you can have a mate. But I don't want a whole bunch here. And so they kind of respected that for years. Now I'm going to have to deal with the children. But it's an ongoing adventure, shall I say, to work with them. And I was lucky because I grew up in a place where I wasn't told not to do that. I wasn't told that it wasn't OK. Nobody talked about it. I just did it. And so that was my gift coming into the earth that I share. It really is everything talks, everything shares. Some things are more responsive than other things. But everything is talk-- everything's-- you can communicate with everything on earth. And in the spirit realm, you really can. Beautiful. So one of the things we like to do to me and I like to share are top three takeaways. And so to Mayor Adler, if you're OK with it, will you go first? Sure. Hard to distill top three, that's for sure. One is that struck me. Grandmother was-- you talked about the-- when you went to school, you sort of had to-- or felt you had to put your spiritual side of you in the closet. We've talked about this in other episodes, sort of the spirit, getting out of the spiritual closet. And then you talked about how you had said to your husband, the tree is talking to me. And what struck me then and the takeaway is that we need to allow spirit to guide. And that if we let spirit guide, then it shows us the connections and we're able to co-create. Whereas if we leave it under the bushel, that it snuffs that out and including the co-creativity and just how beautiful it can be when we allow it to expand to other people and sort of see where those connections are. So that's definitely one of them. Quit worshipping all that wound and seek the positive. And you use the expression at one point, the pretty energy. And I love that expression. So it's that whole concept of we can spend our whole existence feeling wounded and blaming circumstances or people or anything in our life for where our life is or we can embrace the positivity and move forward and just how expansive that then becomes. So that would be my second. And the third that I'd highlight is your purpose is exactly what you've been doing. And it's just about being more conscious of it. So trusting and being an acceptance and being conscious and not being what we're not, be powerful in who you are, come from your integrity, say what you want and trust and stay the course and just show up. So such powerful messages, grandmother, and I really thank you for those. And they will absolutely make a difference in my life going forward. What about you, Jess? What stood out to you? A lot. A lot, the biggest one is I would say when I asked the question about what wisdom from your ancestors do you find yourself returning to again? And again, meaning like is there one wisdom that you're like, oh, aha, you know, it came back again. And it's so funny because even in that question, it was almost like I expected one specific insight to be returned. And it wasn't that the aha that I got, which was the remembrance is in the miracles themselves. It doesn't always look the same. It's like when you received that unseen the incident of Larry's friends or cousins coming to help you with the refrigerator, you had no idea. There's no way you could have even expected that that would be where the miracle came from. But that miracle in and of itself was the aha. It was that was the remembrance. That was the ancestors coming back showing up in a different form and a different way in a different experience and saying, hello, we're here. Here you go. And so it's just trusting that it's that it's putting the trust in that you don't know the avenues that are going to open and how things are going to show up. You have no idea, we just have no idea, but something else you said was if you are powerful to be powerful in who you are, be powerful in who you are in this moment. And those avenues just open up. And whenever you receive those unexpected gifts, that's the remembrance. That's the that's the oh yes, that's the validation that we don't need, but that we crave and yearn for is is found in that. And then of course the second the will the second thing for me was talking to nature and listening and trusting that that's real. I think sometimes it's it can be a little once you reach a point in life, I think I said, once you reach a point in life, it becomes normal, but until you reach that point in life, it's like, I don't want to be, you know, I don't want people to look at me like I'm weird. Because I'm not you're talking to the trees, but it's it's real and true. So we are going to include in the show notes links to grandmother's website. And if you're interested in a divination, she gives, she has, you can find out all the information to receive a divination from grandmother, and they are amazing. They are absolutely amazing healing, life changing. And so we will leave that information in the show notes. And thank you again, grandmother for being with us today. Thank you so much. Thank you.