Waking Up | EP 10 | Saskia's Story

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Hi everyone, Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies, and you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show, our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are about abuse, left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of these stories, there are similarities. Like in the way people talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed. Our life blew up on April 11th. April 12th, 2022 is when D-Day happened. And everything just blew up. All of this blew up our life, our kids' lives, our community. He completely ruined my family. For so many people, a betrayal is an ending, a death of the life they knew. I often get asked if it's depressing, working on stories like this day in, day out. And the truth is, a lot of the time, it's the opposite. Because as much as these are stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what happens after that moment. How people get up the next day. How they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life. And yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing. I think it would surprise him to see how much stronger I've gotten even since his attempt to totally destroy me. I was not going to be just a dispensable person, someone that you can use and abuse and then discard. His focus was on my weaknesses, and he didn't realize how strong I am. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 5, Episode 10, Waking Up. Before we talk about where Saskia is today, there's something I want to share. It's a bit of a left turn, but it has a lot to do with why I do this work, and why I felt drawn to Saskia's story. In college, I was raped. At the time, I was going through a really bad depression. And much in the same way that Saskia did, I drank to cope. One night when I was drunk, a person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't until the next day when I woke up that I knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe I let him on. Maybe I deserved it. It's a feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience. And like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia. As soon as she found out what Mike did to her, she saw the truth clearly. He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. I said, no, no. I have mental health issues. You're a predator, and you're a monster. This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story. And it's actually pretty rare. Immediately, she knew the gravity of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then she took the stand and stood up to him. You're dangerous. You're a person who preys on vulnerable and trusting people. You're a sexual predator, Michael Levin Good. You do have this inner strength that comes out at times. That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers. Where did that come from? I don't know. I really don't know. Wherever it came from, I've always admired that strength in Saskia. And back in those early days after her, discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand, seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults she had to face. But there's more than one way to be brave. This came up with Ashley Inderfurth, the original prosecutor on Saskia's case. At the end of our interview, just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing Ashley wanted to say. We talked about how brave Saskia is to have come forward and to have been willing to go through this process. But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms. While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery is just getting up the next morning and living your life. This was something I needed to hear. And I imagine some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery isn't always about pursuing crime. It's about being brave. And I think that's what we're going to talk about in this episode. was the bravest version of myself. And today, that form of bravery is what Saskia is practicing too. Kitties! Chickie! Burrito! Pippi! Pumpkin! The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days, for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and starting her day. Feeding her pets, going to work, taking a walk. After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert. It really felt like this is it and that there's no light at the end of the tunnel. Nowadays, she's not only back to a normal routine, she's creating that routine for herself for the first time in her adult life. Seven years ago, I was like a baby. Just starting, just learning to crawl. And learning to crawl was learning what I would choose to do on my own. I had never really been single until a few years ago. And just learning when I'm by myself, what do I choose to do? What do I choose to eat? What do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that into who I am. For me to get my agency back and be able to do what is good for me is where my power lies. My power lies now. Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia needed someone like Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa. I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable. And he gave her a sense of stability. Today, Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on her own. She's standing alone. She's doing life. She's creating her own stability now. There's been so much change in the right direction. But there's a flip side to all this growth. I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone. It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself. As Marisa told us, I would say that she socially isolates more so than she ever did. Saskia has her kids, but they're older now. And most of the time, they're out of the house or with their dad. She works from home and stays there through the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller. I was so devastated and shocked by everything that happened that I had no choice but to start to protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering, right? To know that I can do this. I can make my own choices. And I can stay as safe as I need to or want to. But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family. Here's Marisa again. She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long. I want her to be open to the good in people. And I want her to know know what that feels like and to know that he didn't take it from her. When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and what to expect. She was fully on board. In all of her interviews, she was open. But whenever we weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way I'd never encountered before. With other stories. For instance, during our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to dinner with our team. Saskia was the first person I've worked with who didn't really want to go. That was a real learning moment for me. The idea that going out to dinner with us could be hard. It was. I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's been really hard for me to think about it. And I don't think I'll ever be able to get back out there. I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I don't think that I could ever fully be confident that someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me. Because I was so sure that he was a good person and that he loved me. How can I ever get to the point where I truly don't fear that? On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes months of building rapport to get to that point. By the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to share her story. But we questioned if she was ready to really put herself out there with this show. So I asked her about that. I said to you, we don't have to do this. We don't have to go forward with this. You can always circle back when you are ready. How did that occur for you? It made me feel a little bit vulnerable. Like, they're seeing how hard this is for me. Like, what am I doing? This is so difficult. Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead, she made a choice. The choice to keep going. I feel like this was the journey that was put in front of me. 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So, you can quiet the food noise and enjoy smoother weight management when following a healthy lifestyle. For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and other mental health providers. But in choosing to do this podcast, we wanted to ensure she had extra support. So, we connected her with Jessica Baum. I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe. If you've been listening to our show for a while, you might recognize Jess from Season 2, where she worked with our subject, Ashley Linton. I studied interpersonal neurobiology. And that is a study of how we function. Form as infants and young beings in relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns. And I work a lot with my clients on getting into their body and starting to be with their nervous system and starting to connect all those dots. Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly. And I'm going to continue working with her to the other side of this. Whenever she gets to the other side. Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came with it. That came up throughout the production process. It took strength to report the crime and get through those early days. But in many ways, that strength was a reflex. She saw no other path than to fight. This choice, to revisit what happened to her, to trust other people with her story, has demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back to these recordings. And now, she wants other people to hear them, too. In the hopes that her breakthroughs might help somebody else. In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it felt profound. But it also was so scary and so uncomfortable. I honestly was like a little kid. Like, I hid my face in my shirt. Because it felt so strange. Receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what. Mike did to me. And you had to start to recognize how bad it was. Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough to really do the deep diving into me and my story and my life. It feels wrong to me, because I'm not used to doing that. And we have to get in touch with all the pain to do that. Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want to run. A hundred percent. I think that. being vulnerable. Part of you wants to do the work, and the part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it. And I think that's actually a very normal part of this experience. Or the re-experiencing of it all. I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to Caitlin. Caitlin is one of our producers. And she saw that I visibly got tearful. And then started crying. And Caitlin's response, of course, was empathy and like, "If this is too much for you, let's stop." And I said, "No, like, I need to feel these feelings." It's hard, but I know that this is necessary. It's harder before it gets easier. Yep, that's what I'm finding. And, you know, Saskia, some people don't have the capacity. It takes a lot to slow down and feel. Yeah, it's been really hard. A few years. I'm proud of myself for taking the time to be by myself and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing to do at 47 years old. I wish that it would have happened a lot earlier for me so I could have avoided some of these consequences. I don't know how many clients I have that are like 40 or 50 or 55 who say the same thing. Like, I don't know. I wish I could have done this sooner. I remember asking my mentor once when I got out of a really unhealthy relationship. I said, "Did I need to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this healing process occur?" Like, was there another path? Sometimes we're just not ready to go there until things get bad enough or we need a wake up call. Yeah, right. We have no choice but to slow down or stop and deal with things. In slowing down. In slowing down, Saskia's not only facing these emotions coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma from Mike. She's going back further to her childhood to understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with mental illness and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat. It had a real impact on her. She always had a lot of friends. But on the inside. I still felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why. Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety. That's a big part of why she turned to alcohol. I remember the first time. Getting drunk and how good it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of things that I hadn't dealt with yet, were under the surface. Stuff from my childhood. Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desire is when we go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what feels a sense of belonging. And you weren't getting any of that at home. Right. Maybe that's what I did in my relationships, too. I didn't get what I needed emotionally, and so that's always what I was searching for, that feeling. Sure. Mike was really the first person that I thought actually loved me and was safe. It would be awful even if it was a stranger who did this to me or someone I had just met. But the fact that this was my partner for seven years. Supposed to be the safest person to you. I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before in my life. When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that very young part of you is looking to be taken care of. Yeah. And attracted to someone who appears safe, who appears like they're going to take care of that little girl. And it ends up becoming a nightmare. Right. Mike presented as someone different. He presented as someone safer. He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost like a fish on a hook. Your inner child is projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going to be the solution. Because now this person is safe, they're meeting all your needs. And the truth is, your attachment needs were still underneath the surface. A hundred percent, I mean, you've helped me realize that I was seeking validation and feeling, yeah, taken care of. And he was in a position of power because he met those needs so well for you. Looking at how I got to this place has been really important. Because I don't need saving. For the first time in her life, Saskia's not dating. Through this work in therapy, she's breaking patterns, sitting with her pain, putting herself first. I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and time as I need to heal. I don't have time or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now. And that's when the healing has really started. I feel like I need to be able to trust myself before I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do know now is that I can do it on my own. If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with my feelings, I can walk away and I can still be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard lesson for me to learn. But I don't think there was an easier one that would have. Woke you up. Woke me up. You need credit to buy, well, pretty much anything. So how do you get started? Easy, the OnePay Builder Card. It's simple and smart. OnePay is the banking app trusted by millions of Americans. And the OnePay Builder Card is an easy way to build credit. Just use it to make everyday purchases, build your credit history, And then you can work up to the big milestones, buying a new car. or a new house. When you finally make that big purchase, like buying a house, it's such an incredible feeling of accomplishment. You know how much work and how many little steps went into getting there, so finally reaching that milestone just feels amazing. Those moments start with small, consistent steps with the OnePay Builder Card. Builder Card is available with a OnePay deposit account. Builder Card activity is reported to credit bureaus unless you opt out. Results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Debit card transactions are not reported. OneProgress Services, LLC. NMLS ID 2460509. See OnePay.com forward slash licenses. That's why I'm interested in Metabolism Ignite. And Veracity was born from Founder Alley's own health journey with Hashimoto's and infertility. It's clinically backed, easy to take, and designed as a daily habit. Not a quick fix or extreme diet. So before Metabolism Ignite sells out again, head to VeracityHealth.co and use code iHeart for up to 55% off your order. Once again, that's V-E-R-A-C-I-T-Y Health.co for up to 55% off and make sure you use my promo code iHeart so they know I sent you. 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NMLS number 1353190. Klarna balance account required to be eligible for cash back points. Limitations, terms and conditions apply. As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session, I heard something that made me smile. Saskia was looking back on the early days of working with us and how much has changed. Since then, I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me, that makes me happy. And with this podcast, there was a lot of that. Like, I didn't know what support to expect. So it was all very kind of scary. But slowly, through lots of interviews, check-ins and visits, our team earned Saskia's trust. Today, our conversations are as much about what happened to her as they are about what shows were watching, what our pets are doing, good days and bad days at work. Saskia's walls are down. And to me, that's an honor. We're really the first new people Saskia's let into her world in a long time. The support that I felt from working on this podcast, it's been something that I've never felt before. The empathy and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened. And I don't really believe in fate, but it was just what I needed to. Deal with it and heal and do all the hard work. I know it's a re-experiencing, but I think it's the re-experiencing with the support that makes the difference. I totally agree. Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere. But Jess wants Saskia to take this experience of learning to trust us and translate it into trusting others again in her everyday life. The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the work with me, but also other people who you can be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness with you. Instead of finding a new man and a new solution, we need to slow down and start to learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds. And a way to break this pattern is to lean on other people who don't know what's going on inside and be with their core wounds. And I think that's what's going on inside and be with their core wounds. The trauma, but can be with you in your pain. I do have people that I know care about me. Who's one of those people? My sister. I think I used to feel like she wanted to be there, but it was just one more thing in her life that she felt like she wanted to fix. Now she kind of asks, like, do you just want me to be here to listen? That is literally the only thing we need. The only thing we need is we just need people to be with us. In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones you've heard from throughout the season. But it hasn't always felt easy to open up to them. I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not to show how much pain I'm in. I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and like us when we're messy. So we're like, I have to perform. I would never reach out to a friend to vent. I wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood. I would look internally and be like, how can I fix myself so I can be okay for other people? Before Mike, Saskia was the silly, bubbly one in her friend group, no matter what she was going through on the inside. But after her discovery, there was no putting on a happy face. Everything went dark for me. And being around people that just had normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about, I don't know what they bought at the store. It was easier for me to stay away. But connection is a two-way street. Sometimes her friends haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia, if they should or could talk about what happened. When we were in Maryland, I brought that up with Saskia's friend, Heather. Do you guys as a friend group talk about hard things? No. Oh, let me rephrase that. Not with the person in the room. Why do you think that is? I think a lot of us are people pleasers. And so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. And it's not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something. It's genuine concern, but not having the confidence to bring it up directly with the person. There's also the guilt her friends feel about what happened to Saskia. Looking back now, knowing what Mike was doing, Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember, she was the friend that told Saskia to go through with the wedding after the first time Saskia saw something on Mike's laptop. I wish I would have given her that out and been the friend that can been like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. Like, if you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to go through with this. It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could have done anything differently. That guilt can make it hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia went through. It's the reason why, for years, there weren't stories like this one out there. And it's a big part of why it took so long for men like Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby to be held accountable. We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's too violent, too gross. Something meant to be kept private, especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy, or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence. The photos and videos of her rape that will live on on the internet forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part of Mike's crimes. One that is hard for anyone to talk about, even Saskia. I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it. You feel like just trying to block it out of your psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it? Yeah, for sure. I don't think I knew how hard it was going to be, how much I had suppressed in this to just get by. Marisa can see the effect these images have on Saskia. She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display, and that makes her want to shrink. of her that wants to stand up for herself. and will feel no shame, is stronger. Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light, despite how upsetting it can feel. She's being brave. For their part, her friends are starting to do the same. They're showing up for Saskia and talking more about what happened on the podcast, but even more so with each other. I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried realizing how much people care about me. It's nice, like I'm, you know, I'm growing and also I think my relationships have kind of transformed also. She's finding new stability with the people who've been there all along. On our last night in Maryland, Saskia invited all her people over for a party. In the days before, she almost canceled the whole thing. It had just been a full week of interviews. I was so anxious about doing a good job in telling my story that my nervous system was just in overdrive and it felt like too much to go out or entertain. We assured her she didn't need to throw a party on our account. Her people would understand too. But, she wanted to do it. I want to actually enjoy life and I don't feel like I always have to show up with a happy face. I can just be me. So, she gathered everyone on her back porch. Her siblings, her friends. It was a tail end of summer. The sun was setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake, and trading funny stories from growing up. We heard you could get fake IDs in Georgetown. So, Bridget, throw all of us down to Georgetown. I could tell. It was a lot for Saskia. She looked tired and she couldn't seem to sit still in her chair. But in the midst of all of this, I heard something. Saskia's laugh. It was mentioned a lot in interviews with her friends and family. But this was the first time we really heard it for ourselves. And throughout the night, we kept hearing it. There's no clean end to the journey Saskia's on. She'll never reach a point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal. I think healing is a series of smaller wins. Maybe there will come a day when she'll wake up without her trauma on her mind. She'll call her sister or a friend the next time she feels alone. But for now, just having moments like this again, when she can just be with the people that love her and laugh. That's enough. Seven years ago, I really thought that my life was over. I felt humiliated and I still think that that's true today. I feel exposed. But that to me is not as important as exposing somebody who thought that they could just operate in the dark. For a while, he pulled me into that darkness. And I refused to live there. For resources on sexual violence, visit RAINN.org slash betrayal. That's R-A-N-N dot org. R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal P-O-D at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our sub stack at Betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Melchiorri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know the saying, knowledge is power. Well, it's a lot more than that. Knowledge can be growth, security, opportunity. 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