Wait, am I not an imposter?

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Bar Review, a space where we talk honestly about life and the legal profession. I'm Carrie, and I'm Anika. Welcome to the conversation. Just a quick note before we get started, we are not your lawyers, and this is not legal advice. - And to the extent either of us are employed by the time this airs, this is where we share our personal opinions and not the opinions of anyone else, especially those kind enough to employ us. - And one more time for the people in the back? - We are not your lawyers. This is not legal advice. Thank you for listening. - Okay, we are recording now. - We're live, 'cause your day gone. - So far so good, how about yours? - We're better now. - We're better now? - Better know some tacos. - Well, what would you do last night? - I went to Taylor Swift Dance Party. - At the filmor, it was just, it was girlhood in a room. It was so magical. - So you had me listen to this clip before we started recording that absolutely blew my mind, and I'm gonna do something risky and techy here. - Post-acindrome. - I don't have that. - Really? - No, I don't want that. - What? - It's like, you don't feel like you deserve it? - Yeah, I don't think I have it. - Okay, everyone, how is that possible? I feel like impost-acindrome runs my life sometimes. - I feel like I deserve what I've gotten. I think that I've worked very hard, even in the rugby space. Like I, I've played sports my whole life. I went and played rugby at, you know, sophomore and high school, and then I made the Lake City to play rugby here, and then I transferred here to play rugby. And then I do all the work off the field. I posted videos consistently from Tokyo till now. I posted many videos a day. I put myself out there, I put my whole personality, my whole everything out there. - So basically you're just saying, "Don't even acknowledge it." I just don't think I have that. - I love it. - Which I think is also like, people are told sometimes to feel like they have that. Impost-acindrome, but it's okay to be proud of what you've done. It's okay to believe you deserve something because you've put in the word for it. - So that blew my mind. - It also blew my mind. So that's Alona Mar, I think is how we saved her last name. The US rugby player, she's now playing, I think it's rugby 12s over for the Bristol Bears in the UK. She's an icon all around. And yeah, it also blew my mind. - It has never occurred to me that I deserve everything I work super hard for even though one of the things that I personally pride myself on is my work ethic and how hard I work. - Mind blown, mind blown that I just could be proud and accepting of the good that comes from what I've put in, that my inputs deserve an output. I mean, why is that such a radical concept? Why is this such a mind blowing idea? - I think immediately there's two things I think about. And so what she said in that interview that really stuck with me is I think you're told to have imposter syndrome. I do think that's fairly true. I mean, where we live has a culture that's known for being quite reserved and you don't brag about anything and I think that a lot of times being proud of your accomplishments can be acquitted to being braggied and there's this value of being humble. You also see that in hustle type culture where it's you just gotta be humble and stay quiet. Those phrases, we're not owning what we've done. We're having to be quiet about it. And I do think there's a gender aspect to it. And I think that you and I are in what is still a male dominated sphere, even though law school graduates have been majority women for decades now. It is still a show run by men. And it's been shocking to me. So I think there is that gender don't be the loud woman in the room. Don't make a name for yourself. Don't be proud of what you've done. - You know, all of this I think is fascinating because in theory, there's a distinction between humility, eagerness, wanting to continue to work hard, wanting to continue to improve and not feeling like you deserve what you've earned. I mean, those are different, right? There is this idea that you can be quiet and humble and open and hungry, but also acknowledge that you've got some skills, even to the level of that you trust yourself in situations where there's a brief, an or a argument, an assignment where you say to yourself internally, I actually got this. I will say that almost every project I work on, including this podcast with you, I have a little bit of a moment at the beginning where I wonder if I can do it, then I take a deep breath, then I start working on it, then as I'm in it, is when I start to get a little bit more confidence, but I can't eat in the morning before I have court. I can't do it. My adrenaline is coursing through my body. I am sure that I'm gonna trip over my shoelaces and whack my head on something, metaphorically speaking. I never feel like I am just gonna get up there and it's gonna be magic, and yet I watch other people get up there and it's magic and I'm proud of them every single time and I know they feel that way too. So what the heck? - I feel like you have a little bit of a different perspective on this because I don't have that questioning about my capacity to do something. I probably have a borderline delusional belief in my ability to always learn something. I don't think it's delusional. - It just that's always been a part of the way I do the world. If you give me enough time and an opportunity, I can learn to do something and I can learn to do it well. I majored in a language in college. I didn't take a single French class until my freshman fall semester. It was the very first thing. I just walked into college and I was gonna major in something I've never studied before and it's gonna be great. And it was, but the trial of learning a language and putting yourself out there, it's a lot of getting back up after you've made a mistake. It's a lot of putting yourself out there to make mistakes and just continuing going on and everything's gonna be fine. And I bring that into my legal career. There's never been a moment when I didn't think it was all gonna be fine. I didn't necessarily think it was gonna be magic when I got up there to do it. But I knew that the world wasn't gonna end. Nothing was gonna burn down. I might stumble my way through it, but there was gonna be an end point. And so I just always felt that way. - I've noticed that in you. So I think here's the part where we acknowledge that there is probably a 10 year gapish between us. Let's just leave it at that. And one of the things that has always struck me about you is your confidence and it is not something. And I think you can agree that you are more competent than I am. I think that that's obvious. That stands out. What's up? I would say now that we've got even younger baby lawyers than you starting in. You and I have both talked about how there's just this incredible confidence that's in these women. And I mean, obviously this should be something that's fostered. This is very important. But openness to learn and confidence are not mutually exclusive. - So you think there's like generational difference? In a way we were brought up in a different perspective on women achieving. - Probably not. Probably not. I don't know. I mean, that's the conversation, right? I've always been struck by how confident you are. And I admire that in you. - So thank you. - And I am not as confident. And I don't have all the answers for why that is. I'd like to be more confident. I'd like to listen to another woman speaking about how she works hard and good things happen as a result of that. And she feels like she deserves that and not have my mind blown because that just seems elementary to me. So what happens? I mean, have you experienced moments where you've been making a de-question your confidence? - That's a really interesting question. I guess I don't really think I ever have. Question my confidence in my own ability to get through something. I've certainly been nervous to get up and do something for the first time. Taking my first opposition, I was certainly nervous, but I wasn't, it was nervous and nerves out of, I'm doing something I've never done before and honestly more logistically nervous. Like, how do I mark and exhibit in the middle of this opposition? What is the room that we're gonna be in? How does this function? Actually, most of my nerves being a lawyer come from logistical questions. Quite literally, how do the mechanics of this work? I've not ever really that nervous about my own capacity to do something. That's awesome. When you have questions about those mechanics, where do you go? - Usually, I think just watching someone else do it and then you get the experience of seeing someone else do it. I think a lot of it though is you're never gonna know it until you do it. You can learn how to impeach a witness in practice. Many different times, read all the blogs, watch YouTube, video about it. but you're never gonna truly internalize what that is and what it means to do that until you just get up and do it. - That's awesome. If I were to dissect it, I never felt like I deserved anything good that I earned. And I mean, I don't know. It's sitting with me as I say that out loud, and especially seeing something like that out loud into a microphone, knowing it's recording, and it's tough, but I'm thinking about the moment that I got into college, and it was the college that I got into. And I knew before I opened the packet because I'm older and it came hard copy in the mail. So you always knew if you got in, or if you didn't get in by the envelope. If it came as a packet, you know, that was bursting at the seams, you knew before you opened it, that there was gonna be a lot of information in there about how to become a student at that school, versus the tiny envelope. And I remember that I opened it, and I was almost like blacked out with happiness as I was opening it. I remember the moment of seeing the envelope, but I can't even tell you what was inside it, or what anything said, it was just like, I did it, and even though I had worked hard in high school to get all the ducks in the row, to be able to have quote unquote, earned that envelope, and somebody had reviewed an application and decided I was worthy, and all of that, et cetera, and so forth. I just remember that moment of validation, more than anything, 'cause I didn't know that I was capable of it until it came, up until that moment. And, I mean, is that a fundamental difference in us? - I think so, and hearing you say that, it's kind of fascinating. Something that I'm thinking about is, my dad and I talk a lot, and there's one phrase that he said a lot when I was a kid, or at least, I have a perception that he said it a lot, and it's the joy of life is in the work, and so that's been a lesson that's been internalized in me, and that I really grew up thinking about is that the joy of life is in the work, and how lucky are we to have work to do, and have things to keep our hands busy and things to build, and if you're always focused on the destination, you're missing 99% of what your actual life is, 'cause life is in the work. I think that's also how I view accomplishments. I have won awards and gotten cool things, and had prestigious quote unquote moments, but those don't really stand out to me. It's what I did along the way to get there. I don't remember opening my admission to the college that I went to. I have no memory of that, but I remember a lot of other things that I did in high school that were important to me. As you know, I decided when I was 13, 14, that I wanted to go to West Point, which is the US Military Academy. They're incredibly hard to get into. Their admission rates are lower than Harvard, generally. And their admission rates for women are even lower. Even lower. And so I crafted, basically, my whole high school experience to build the perfect application. And I did a lot of stuff to get there. I was a Girl Scout. I got my Girl Scout Gold Award. I was in leadership roles. I was in sports. I did everything under the sun. And I got in, so this actually do remember opening, 'cause it did mean a lot. And I got in a letter in September of my senior year of high school, called the Letter of Assurance, which basically is West Point sends you a letter that says, pending a nomination, 'cause you have to be nominated by your US Senator or House of Representatives member, or the Vice President also can nominate people. Pending a nomination, you're admitted to West Point, but you certainly secure the nomination. And I was sobbed. I got in the middle of a choir class. I got the email. And I just started crying. Just couldn't believe that I got the letter of Assurance, because everyone had told me that it's so hard for women to get in. It's so hard to get in here. You're probably not gonna do it. You got it, you got it, you got it. And then I did. And when you say everyone, are you saying your support network, and it wasn't coming from a bad place, it was coming from not wanting your expectations to be too disappointed, or do you mean something different? I think that and so I think my support network was, I should very supportive of the idea of going to West Point, and really supported me in the process, but did always keep the asterisk of let's keep a plan B, let's think about other options. These odds are just slim. And we have to be realistic a lot of slow odds. Externally, I faced a lot of things when I would go to West Point alumni events, and you could come and meet alumni or meet people from the senators offices and doing interviews and things like that. And men would just repeatedly say, well you know it's really hard on women. And I'm like, yeah, got that. You're the 80th person to say this. I'm still here, I'm still applying. The message isn't landing. And so that was, that was hard. But the imposter syndrome, actually, the distinct memory I have that I think is maybe the moment that I stopped having a sense of imposter syndrome was in my state, all of the interviews for the House of Reps and the senators happened on the same day. Their staff's coordinated to rent out the same spot. So then all of us only had to come one day. It was just rounds of interviewing. And I was waiting in a hallway to go into this interview room, which they're super intimidating, it's panels of people. So I'm sitting there, I'm nervous. I'm in my suit trying to stay calm. And there's this guy, and he was in a Letterman jacket. And I remember it because his medals were jingling on his Letterman jacket. And it was really obnoxious. And he turned to who was going to his-- I think his friend, maybe just somebody came out there in the hallway and said, can you believe they let women interview? And I just looked at him and I was like, I have a letter of assurance to you. And he just looked at me like, flabbergasted and walked away. And I think that was the moment. I was like, I deserve to be here. I worked my ass off. I did all the things. I did the impossible tasks. I'm here. And no one can take that away from me. I didn't end up going to West Point. But I think that that moment was really instrumental in how I viewed myself going forward. And so we're clear you got that nomination. Yeah, I had three nominations. But I think this is fascinating because if I were to sit here and tick off all of the reasons why I've internalized that I'm not good enough and I don't deserve anything, it's not different from those same conversations, a version of those conversations that you just described. It's just the way that they landed. So is it just putting your shoulders back and realizing that you got this and easier said than done? But it's not about the metal or the accomplishment that lets you know you can do it. You've been able to do it the whole time. Yeah, that's how I do it. I've been able to do this and I'm doing it. You are doing it. I'm doing it too though. Yeah, and you have very shiny things in your past who are very accomplished. You've done amazing stuff. You should feel proud of that. I think I am proud of that to a degree. But I think the unhealthy-- and maybe this is generational, maybe not. Maybe it's just personality difference. But I think what I'm leaving no matter what from this recording is this idea, the joys and the work. I agree with that. When I am busy, I am happy. I mean, you and I are both very busy. And somehow we've decided that we should do this gig on the side. We're gladdens for punishment. And we love it. Up until maybe this conversation-- and maybe that's not fully fair-- but up until basically this point in my life as a mom, as I've been in practice for 10 years, I graduated from a law school that I didn't think I could get into and did very well at-- I did well in my federal clerkships. I do have a resume. But only until right now talking to you have I realized that it wasn't that I knew until I got the invisible shiny star that I was going to get the invisible shiny star. So it was getting the star that made me feel worthy of the star. And even then, because it's invisible, it can make you feel that worthy for that long. There's just a new star. What's your advice there? What should I do differently for the rest of my life? About a million dollar question. I don't really know. I've just built this kind of sense in myself of that confidence over time. A big part-- it was instrumental in college because I did quite a different backpacking trips. That was a really formative process. I would never call myself an athlete. I would not fast. I was always the last person in the line of the backpacking trek way back here. But I'm going to get there all the same. You just put one foot in front of the other and we're going to climb the same mountain. But mentally, that builds a lot of resilience so you can do hard things if you just keep going. That's now what I've brought into my career. I think the law-- in particular, I think you have to learn to not chase invisible shiny stars because the law will burn you out doing that. There's always more invisible shiny stars and you'll end up chasing them without realizing that you're leaving life behind. And then you get to the shiny star and you look back. And there went seven years where I didn't take a vacation where I was ever actually on vacation. And so learning to not chase that external gratification has been a big part of finding balance for me in the career too. That's beautiful. We can do hard things. We do hard things all the time. We do hard things every day. And just because you don't expect me to be able to doesn't mean I can't. And also I'm not looking for your gratification or your validation. And then having the confidence to say, no, I do handle all this. I have done this. And just because it doesn't meet your expectations doesn't mean it's not worthy or valid or a part of who I am and what it brings to the table. So part of what I'm hearing in that too is you are really good at making sure that you get the opportunities that you need. No one's going to make you make spreadsheets for the first three years of your career. You would quit that job. Absolutely. And my best friend, my childhood best friend, she always jokes that if I decided that I wanted to move a mountain the mountain would move, that's just my personality. I just decide that I want something or I want to do something. And we just make it happen. I think in the glutton for punishment I'm someone that can thrive or have delayed gratification. So even if it'll take me two years to get there, I know that I'll get there and I can do it, which is that joy is the work concept too. I love that. How do you build that muscle? Other than just being a person who finds the joy in the work and has the mantra maybe, maybe that's the start of finding the joy in the work, the joy is in the work. But for on behalf of all of those recovering and soon to be recovering invisible star chasers, how do you build that muscle? If that hasn't been your motivator so far. Partying was just born in that way. I have a large capacity for work. I can buckle down and get a lot done and be really disciplined. But I always make sure there's space on the other side for things that I enjoy. So yeah, I'm going to have a crazy week and work 70 hours. But there's a latte on Sunday morning with my name on it. And I think that really helps. You take care of yourself too. I think so. And what I'm thinking of right now that I'm not sure exactly about my brain is going here. But I love the petite prongs, the little prince. It's one of my favorite books. I read it at least once a year probably, especially if I'm having a hard period of time I'll read that book. And there is a scene where he says that the little prince is talking about how when he said he sits and watches the sunset and the sunrise. And then he says one day he watched 400 sunsets in a day. And then personally, he's talking to you goes, well, you must have been really sad that day. But I always think about that scene because the sun is going to rise. And it is going to set. Time is the only constant. It's going to move forward. The work is not always going to be here. It's not always going to be this hard. It's not always going to be this heavy. There will be another side of things. And so you can get to that sunrise and get to that sunset. And then you'll have the time to appreciate it. And really thrive in that moment. And now you've done hard things to get there. That's beautiful. Thanks for joining the conversation. You can find Bar Review wherever you get your podcasts. Please subscribe and share. You want to keep the conversation going? Follow us on social at Bar Review LLC. On it, we'll see you there. And she'll tell me all about it. Got a question you want us to talk on a future episode? Send it our way. We try to read every email. And just a reminder, we are not your lawyer. And these opinions are just our own. Cheers. [MUSIC PLAYING] [Music]