Vom Wasser zum Wasserstoff

On peace. A journey through the new peace zone. Episode 8. From water to hydrogen. Hydrogen is a kind of miracle of the energy wave. Everyone is working on it, everyone is talking about it, but it is not available. It should change quickly. The peace zone is right in front of it. And that's what it is about in our new episode "Our Podcast on Peace". A journey through the new peace zone, around hydrogen. And how the peace zone also wants to stay in the future the central energy of Germany. We talked to an former city councilor who is looking at an old model, the technology of the future. We need to actually develop the industry climate-neutral. In order to develop green energy and there the energy carrier hydrogen in a large range. With a manager, the garbage is converted into hydrogen. Basically, it is about the hydrogen technology that is built in a truck, with the fuel cell and tanks. The charging volume is not limited. And with the director of an energy institute, who takes a look at the global view. There will be no successful energy wave without hydrogen. And with a technical approach, the green steel will be produced. There is already the largest hydrogen network in Europe here in the Rhine-Ruhr area today. How does hydrogen work at all? We want to clarify that first. Hydrogen is generated when water, i.e. H2O, is put under current. It then splits up. So to speak, it falls into the pure hydrogen H2 and into oxygen O. It is called electrolysis. You can convert the process with the help of a so-called fuel cell. Then hydrogen and oxygen are combined again to H2O. The great thing about it, the energy that you put in before, will then be free and can be used spontaneously again. Without climate damage emissions. In the future, hydrogen should become the source of a climate-neutral industry. The Ruhr area is the core of a new European hydrogen economy. The existence of its steel, chemical and chemical factories is essential for the region. If the transformation is made quickly, the region can become the lead with an enormous potential for the future. The prerequisites for this are excellent, as we will see. One who has already dealt with hydrogen very early here is Volker Lindner. He was the head of the city council earlier. Good morning. Are you Mr. Lindner? Yes. Wonderful. Then I am in the right direction. Today the chairman of the H2O network Ruhr. He has his business on the northern part of the Zeche Ewald. Here there are also engineer offices and manufacturer of fuel cells as well as two attempts to create hydrogen with the help of wind power. Hello Mr. Lindner. Hello, good morning. Did you come by car today? I came by bike today. But when I'm on the road for the H2O network Ruhr, I also like to use a fuel cell vehicle. Normally it is common that you drive with battery-powered cars. Why is your enthusiasm for hydrogen? Well, the fuel cell vehicle has a few advantages in the eyes. You can tank very quickly in four minutes, just like a gasoline. And you have the possibility to reach the greater range at the moment. And otherwise you make fun of driving electrically. But we want to show that it works with hydrogen. Even if in the Pkw area, according to my calculations, the battery-powered car will survive in the future. Yes, you say that the range is just 6 to 700 kilometers. I think that's a problem with a filling tank. You have one in front of the door, but otherwise they are not so rich, right? Well, we have more than 90 fuel cells in Germany in operation. And with that we are far away from the countries that have the largest fuel cells close to Japan. That means that you can already drive with these vehicles through the area. We still have the problem that there are too few vehicles. Not in Härten, because there are many people here. There is a colleague who actually drives a private fuel cell vehicle. And the mining company "Frohrgebiet", which is located here, has a lot of fuel cell Pkw in operation. Not only the boss drives a fuel cell vehicle there, but also a series of employees. That means that in Härten, we probably have the largest fuel cell Pkw density in the Federal Republic. You are the chairman of the H2NetzwerkRuh, what exactly does the company do? H2NetzwerkRuh founded itself in 2008 to connect the activities in the entire Ruhr area a little bit with the former founding members. Because we have seen that as a single small city or a single economic organization, you cannot exist in this scene. It is organized internationally, which is very manageable. But you can achieve the best effect there when you represent yourself as a metropolis Ruhr in general. And we have done that back then with some founding members. There were very fast companies like Linn and Alikid. Meanwhile, we are 70 institutional members in total. High schools, research institutes, but also a series of companies. There are also companies like Rechtsanwälte and Projektentwickler and so on, which also want to tumble in this area. That means that we have collected an incredible amount of expertise through the membership. And what do we do as a network? Of course, we connect everything together and benefit from the competence of our members and the institutions outside of the network that we know. We always know someone who knows something. We don't know it ourselves. We only have an overview, but we always know who can give a special outcome to which topic. And that's what we do for our members. We have already talked about the topic of cars, which application fields are there still? The most important thing is from our point of view the industry. We need the industry to actually develop climate neutrality, green energy, and there the energy carrier hydrogen in a very large scale. And if we talk about green hydrogen for the industry, we have to see that from our point of view it is mainly hydrogen that is produced from green electricity. So from the front you have to say that the significance of the energy carrier hydrogen depends on a very large extent that we can and can produce green electricity in a much larger scale. If that succeeds, then we also have the opportunity, for example, to develop the steel industry climate neutrality, by developing the heating process so that no coax is used there, but only hydrogen. And with that it is almost climate neutrality. And that applies to other production levels in steel production as well. It also applies to the chemical industry. Very large areas of the chemical and mineral oil industry are hydrogen-dependent. This hydrogen is currently produced from earth gas. And well, you don't need to carry out any dependencies at all at the time. I actually wanted to do that. I have already talked to several companies. They are actually completely dependent on earth gas. And they told me that they want to replace hydrogen. They already have the systems. Actually, no matter if it is green or gray or whatever, it has to be available first, so that they can test the systems. Because they can't simply replace it from today to tomorrow. And hydrogen can then be green for the next few years, but they need it now to start. Where do we get it from? At the moment, it is here in the Ruhr area that we are actually producing hydrogen from earth gas. Or hydrogen that is mainly used in industrial processes, especially in the chemical industry, as an excess hydrogen. So, so to speak, due to this process, it is first produced and then can not be used differently than for such uses. So we are in an transition phase that is very clearly not climate neutral. And you can do that again with the vehicles. If someone drives to the gas station here in Herthen and I use a fuel cell vehicle, then I tank hydrogen that has its origin from earth gas reformation. That means it is not climate neutral. I drive with the vehicle, environmentally conscious, so to speak. Then only hydrogen comes out. But at the end of the day, I do not drive climate neutral. Still, it is correct, as you said, that the industry and vehicles are first used to drive the technology forward. And then, if we actually have green hydrogen in larger quantities, we can immediately change it and say, OK, now we are in climate neutral. That is still in front of us. You have to see that very clearly. The production capacities for green electricity, the conversion capacities of electrolysis, which then actually make green hydrogen out of green electricity, we will have to build up. We do not have that yet. Yes. What is the position of the Ruhr area? We have a lot of management here. We have experience with hydrogen. For over 100 years, through the chemical industry, is that a standoff advantage? That is clear, because first of all, this background of experience is actually one that can be used wonderfully for the current transformation. That is the first point. The second point is that, especially in the Ruhr area, a large demand for hydrogen is still on the way to climate neutrality. Basically, now a demand for green hydrogen can be generated. And that is reflected in the fact that the first major management project for green hydrogen is currently on the Ruhr area. So, nationwide, it is the first major project that is supplied to an industrial area with green hydrogen for industrial use. That is the project GETA 2. And that is in the eyes of the planning. With this, the implementation begins. The implementation of a gas management from northern Germany, from the left, will be transported here by green hydrogen and then used for the chemical industry in the standoff mal and for the mineral industry in the city of Gelsenkirchen-Schäuwen. The implementation will, there are different tasks, as always in these times, where you also need the corresponding capacities in the implementation, but will be 25, 20, 24, 25, success. And that is very early for an industrial transformation. And in these industrial processes, which are combined there, you can simply replace the so-called gas-reformed hydrogen with green hydrogen. Chemical, physical, the same thing. It only describes the origin, the color designation. And with that, you have a very quick, already a huge, also climate-friendly CO2 saving. You can't avoid it. We need a huge amount of hydrogen here. If this transformation is successful, what does that mean for the Ruhr area? And if it doesn't work, what would that mean for the Ruhr area? If it didn't work for us, that the Ruhr area would have to be supplied with green hydrogen, you would have to think about the locations of this industry. Because they are then in danger of wandering off into areas and regions, even the world, which can produce much cheaper green hydrogen. These are the wind-rich and solar-rich regions. And that is exactly what is here in the eye of the topic. How do we secure the jobs that are in the industry, both steel industry and chemical industry, here in the region? By taking care of us now, to get green hydrogen here. And the eye-opening political situation also speaks for us to create this very quickly and maybe even faster than originally meant. Because with the substitution of Russian soil gas, from the front to the back, why do we take a lot of other soil gases? We don't take another step. We don't let ourselves be supplied with green hydrogen from Rotterdam. We don't let ourselves be supplied with green hydrogen from North Germany. And therefore build the necessary infrastructures. There are these discussions in the eye of the topic. And of course they will also be able to secure the locations of the industry here in the Ruhr area. But on the other hand, it is also an advantage for the security of the locations that we succeed. Yes, I give you both thumbs up. Thank you for the conversation. You're welcome. For the Ruhr area, there is a lot of hydrogen. But at the same time, everyone is very keen to share hydrogen with the future business. Industry companies and intermediaries are trying to implement their processes and testing new solutions that work with hydrogen. Cities like Härten work on it, to offer good economic conditions and not only Härten, but also later. First of all, let's stay here in the city. I am talking to someone who is already in the middle of the transition to the new hydrogen economy. Joachim Ronghe, CEO of the Ruhr area, AGR. Good morning. How are you doing? I greet you. Ah, Mr. Ronghe. Hello. Do you want to do it outside or inside? A little bit inside. Ronghe is a maker. He has already thought for six years that he wants to create future hydrogen with his mill combustion system. At the time, I looked at everything secretly. There is just new mill vehicles for the AGR to create. They will drive with hydrogen. A battery operation is not a question for such cars, because the heavy loaders do not only need energy for driving, but also to lift the trash can and press the waste. A battery that would create a whole working day would be so big that there is simply too little space for the mill in the loader. Hello, Mr. Ronghe. Yes. Welcome, Mr. Dahlmann. We are in the middle of a mill combustion system. What does it have to do with hydrogen? Mr. Dahlmann, the AGR, but also colleagues and colleagues in other mill combustion systems, have been intensively involved in the matter of electricity and heat generation, to deal with the production of hydrogen and to develop it as third energy from the household. The approach is actually a very sad one. Here, the nitrogen values in 2016 were, I think, so catastrophic that there was a diesel driving ban. It would have meant that they could not have left the operating area with their cars. If we remember, Mr. Dahlmann, there was this emission level, no typical Nord-Rhein-Westphalian, but that was in Baden-Württemberg, just like in North Germany. There was a general theme that we said there were emission difficulties that had something to do with logistics, with diesel-driven trucks, with diesel or even pick-up trucks. And it was very important for the AGR that we strategically ensure that the power supply to the input, i.e. to the mill, the nitrogen, but also the power supply to the residual materials, which has to come out of the system again, is secured at LKW. Otherwise, we would have had to tell the citizens one day, "Dear citizens, dear citizens, we can no longer drive by you through the streets or the industrial advertising industry, the logistics is restricted because the emissions are there and we wanted to achieve that we get an emission-free logistics." Yes, that means you thought about how you can decarbonize LKWs and then you came to hydrogen. Why hydrogen? Exactly right, that was the goal, to reduce this strategic risk and at the same time contribute to the environment, to the unloading, to the reduction of emissions. That's why hydrogen, because in the waste, in any case, from our assessment, it will not come to the end that it is only one technology, but we have the conviction that the part of hydrogen is related to the capacity of LKWs, transport capacity or not reduced transport capacity through large batteries. A wonderful big relationship is basically about the hydrogen technology that is built into a LKW, with the fuel cell and the tank. The load volume is not limited. That means we have secured the capacity. That was the primary reason to say that it looks like that. And there are a series of household vehicles, hydrogen-driven and probe-driven vehicles. For the first time in a few days, we have been carrying out the first commercial waste LKW, called "Hüberg-Kopflader" for the commercial waste in the probe. And we are confident that this will work, even if everything is still being done in hand. There is no supply in Germany, not a large series of household vehicles for commercial waste. Tell me, you have ordered several, but you have to wait for a long time. Yes, as always in life, we would have liked to order many, but there were actually, four years ago, when we released the order, there was no manufacturer who said, but we will try it. So the one we ordered here, the others are in the order, that is a European community, in the best sense, from five countries, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Italy, and certainly also a few Chinese components. But you can imagine, and the lockdown times, what that means, and it's all handmade, handmade. There is still no series production. And I can understand every LKW manufacturer, who says, a series production is only worth it for me, when I have a size of 200, 300 or 400 pieces. In Switzerland, I think a competitor has ordered a thousand pieces. I would only wish, Agaer, it's not that big, that we are ordered a thousand pieces to give the whole thing a real boost, so that in the vastness of the word, water-based companies can get PS on the streets. As Agaer, we are unfortunately too small, but we will succeed. And that is level two, our rockets, if I may say so. In addition to the LKW issue, we immediately said, we want a water-based production and a high-performance tank. It won't last more than twelve months. We can also put it forward. The supply chains will be kept through the issue of corona and war. It will lead to the fact that we can refuel at least 100 LKW around the clock. So the 100 LKW that come to us, our own and the common, plus PKW plus another part of the trailer to the industry. That means, we have a local, small, regional, but fine self-sustaining with climate-neutral hydrogen, so that we can generate it in the future. Yes, we have planned four joules. And they are not only for LKW, but I as a private customer with my PKW, hydrogen PKW could also come here. Exactly, that's what it is, Mr. Dahmann. That's a public gas station. Two joules LKW, two joules PKW, that means 700 bar, 350 bar, high-performance. That means, you don't have to wait long, but basically the fuel time for such a LKW, as long as, well, on hydrogen-based companies, as long as we refuel 400 liters of diesel, that's 10, 12, 13 minutes depending on what. Then such a thing is done and the next one can follow. Now we're talking about the Ruhr area, heavy industry. A lot of companies that would rather convert today than tomorrow, would go to hydrogen. Can you deliver them? Mr. Dahmann, we would like to, but what the AGR produces here in the industrial scale, these 100 LKW PKWs will be enough and a little bit the industry around it, so to control commercial businesses. But we are really too small for that. Germany will always remain a prime energy import country. A self-sufficiency with so much photovoltaic wind won't work. We will import it and hopefully it will be green hydrogen, which can be imported. We are too small. There will be other oil supply companies that can also do that locally, like us. And many small local supply islands will help. But we will never get out of the oil supply industry a so-called contribution for the big industry. So when I think of the colleagues in Duisburg, they say no, that is too much. What they need. Okay, I still think it's great that you started so early on with it and that you sometimes got your head on it, especially with the vehicles. Big compliment. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you very much. And you are welcome. At the beginning of the next year, to be part of the industry. I press the thumbs up. Thank you. The calm area has the best prospects for hydrogen economy. A ranking of the Institute of German Business in Cologne is compared to the other regions in Germany even on the first place. The conditions for green hydrogen are good. Because the region has everything it needs. Companies that already produce and distribute hydrogen today, other companies from the different branches need a lot of hydrogen in part. Again, other companies work on new technical solutions to make the production and processing of hydrogen easier and cheaper. Many research institutes and an infrastructure that has already been well-built today. In addition, an exchange of rain between all important actors and a policy that supports hydrogen. For the longest time, a coordination point for hydrogen has been founded. The hydrogen metropole peace, the climate-friendly renewal, transportation, and the municipalities and institutions should be connected. Everyone wants to mix hydrogen here. This is not only in Hartensow, but also in other places in the Ruhr area. For example, a technology and innovation centre for hydrogen is established in Duisburg-Hafen. Companies can test hydrogen solutions for the transport sector there. In Schimipark-Mahl, the company Ehrliquid is now the largest waste plant in Europe for hydrogen. In addition, the company belongs to Germany's largest network of hydrogen pipelines. Gelsenkirchen also drives the topic forward. With a H2 Solution Lab, which is a medium-sized company that is supposed to show the way to hydrogen economy and training experts in a new study. With the testing of technology, such as turbines in the industrial scale and with the climate harbour Gelsenkirchen, where 17 companies are taking a kind of "blue break" for the climate-neutral transformation of a whole industrial landscape. One who knows the plans very well is Michael Brotmann. He is a professor at the Westphalian High School in Gelsenkirchen and director of the Westphalian Energy Institute. He is a specialist in energy transformation and distribution. We are now visiting him. Hello, Mr. Brotmann. You have been researching Gelsenkirchen for more than 20 years about hydrogen. At the same time, we have practically naked the large raffineries that Gelsenkirchen has been protecting for decades. Will Gelsenkirchen now become a hydrogen city? Well, on the one hand, Gelsenkirchen is traditionally already a little hydrogen city, because the raffineries of course work with a lot of hydrogen and are currently also currently limited, which has always been the basis of fossil fuel by green hydrogen to replace. But Gelsenkirchen wants to go even further, wants to establish himself in the field of hydrogen technology. There are three big initiatives that try to drive the city of Gelsenkirchen with the actors ahead. And in this respect, Gelsenkirchen will become a hydrogen city in the next few years. I am convinced of that. There will be a lot of money invested here. A lot of money. What exactly? Yes. The thing is at the moment that the companies that are very intensively dealing with the topic of hydrogen are trying to build up a model attempt on the one hand, in the airfield, where the companies that are currently very strong in their heat demand are still covering from earth gas. They then want to cover hydrogen. They want to pilot the company. In the future, they will have a portfolio and say, yes, that's how it can go. That's how you can use hydrogen to replace earth gas. Yes. What topics are you working on specifically here? We are in charge of the profit of green hydrogen, namely with electrolysis. We are in charge of two very interesting new approaches. On the one hand, we have said that we want to try to realize the electrolysis at a high pressure level. We have reported to a patent here in Gelsenkirchen, from which many other patents have been produced. This is the so-called patent of the hydrolysis of electrolysis. And on the basis of this, it is possible to create the hydrogen at a high pressure level and then in the end with the possibility of cost savings, savings, to create something simpler. That's the one goal. And the permelectrolysis, which I mentioned earlier, is currently based on a lot of use of raw materials that are expensive. So you need iridium. The price of iridium is currently very, very high. You need platinum as a metal in the permelectrolysis. The price is also in the rise. You are going to have a very expensive pre-order. And we are currently trying to use the so-called AEM electrolysis, to continue to drive forward, also with industrial companies from the region, which can work with much more cost-effective components. Yes. In particular, I imagine that if the whole world turns around and puts hydrogen on it, then there is no metal on the market at all, right? That can be the consequence. And then you will surely be able to find alternative materials, but they will always have to be precious metals that are more expensive in nature. Yes. How is the calm area in this game set up? It is the energy center of Germany. It wants to continue to stay in the energy center, also in the European context. Is that possible with hydrogen? From my point of view, the question is different. Namely? Namely? At the moment, the question is, do we have an alternative to build up our energy supply in the future without hydrogen? And I purely agree with the statement that there will be no successful energy transition without hydrogen. Yes. And if you put the postulate on the ground, then you actually have to establish the hydrogen in the Ruhr area. You have to build up the hydrogen infrastructures. But most importantly, to be able to stay in the industrial heart of Germany and Europe. Yes. Because of course, the energy supply is a fundamental component. Now let's do this before the industry that is here. There is a need for a lot of hydrogen. Where should it come from? The hydrogen will definitely not only come from German production. So the hydrogen generation will of course be made meaningful there, where regenerative energy can be cheap and easy to win. And that is, for example, when you put solar energy on the ground, in the sun, the earth, the earth. And in this respect, the hydrogen will probably be produced there and then reach Germany and Europe via pipeline systems, via the seawall or other ways. In this respect, the question is only whether sufficient hydrogen can be made available on the world market. Yes. That means that we are not allowed to think too little about the technology, but we have to test ourselves in a larger dimension. No question. But that is what you are doing today. So, if you see one of the very big projects, the transformation of an earth gas pipeline into a hydrogen pipeline. The project is called Get Hard 2. And this pipeline ends here in Gelsenkirchen to be able to supply the infrastructure here with green hydrogen in the future. But there are the basic thoughts, of course, the ability to connect to the big seawall, to Rotterdam, etc. and then also land the hydrogen from overseas there to be able to save in such pipeline systems. Yes. A short word about cars. I also see more and more hydrogen cars on the streets here. Are they not efficient? Of course, hydrogen has a part of the transformation that we have to base on. In this respect, the last step of transformation is certainly a less efficient one when compared to the classic battery vehicle. But you have to base on the fact that hydrogen, for example, can be used in the North Sahara with a different output with the use of a similar photovoltaic module. You can gain a lot more energy from which hydrogen can be produced. And when you look at the whole chain of transformation, then hydrogen is competitively comparable to the model. I win here with a photovoltaic module my electric energy on my own roof and eat my pure battery vehicle with it. So the difference is not that big in the long run. And when you use the resources of the battery vehicle, then you really have to say that the battery vehicle is wonderfully suitable for the short run and the hydrogen should keep the long run and also maintain the great mobility. Yes, that means logistics and truck driving over several hundred kilometers hydrogen is actually without competition. I would say so. Yes, wonderful. Thank you for the conversation. You're welcome. What I would like to know now is how far the big industry has come on its way to hydrogen. No important question in an industrial ballroom like the Ruhr area. An Köfler can answer with me. He is the CTO of Tüssenkrupp Stil and therefore responsible for all technical questions. Hello, Mr. Köfler. Nice to have you. Good morning, Mr. Dahlmann. I am also happy to be here with you. You are the technical director of Tüssenkrupp Stil and are in Duisburg. That is a huge steel plant. I have read that it is six times as big as Monaco. Does that make sense? We like to hear that. I think we are only five times right. But still, big dimensions, yes. Still even bigger, yes. How important is the topic of hydrogen for Tüssenkrupp Stil? Yes, hydrogen is practically alternative for us because we are decarbonizing. So the goal in the next years and decades is not to emit CO2 emissions anymore, but to get hydrogen. Yes, hydrogen can replace coal. How does it work? Yes, it is exactly as you say, the hydrogen is replaced by coal. That is to say, 100%. Today, you need the carbon to get the oxygen out of the ore, which is 30-35% in the ore. And that is also obtained with hydrogen. And that is why we will replace the technologies and use hydrogen to get the oxygen out of the ore. Yes, that is a huge transformation. What does that mean for the Ruhr area in general? Yes, that is a huge transformation alone for Tüssenkrupp, to completely rebuild this five-time-large plant here. To demolish the high open skylines practically once and to set the new aggregates against them. But it is also a big challenge for the Ruhr area, but also a huge chance, because the Ruhr area has of course the best conditions for this transformation to a not only steel, but also outstanding process industry, which can produce hydrogen based on it. We have many energy companies here in the near future. We have large chemical companies here in the near future and also other potential hydrogen consumers. And in addition to that, a high school landscape, a supply landscape that can also prepare the new technologies. And that is why the Ruhr area is actually predestined for this change in addition to the challenge of all that to process. Yes, I have heard that all the guidelines are very important. They are in the Ruhr area, which you could actually take over for hydrogen one-to-one? Yes, that is partly right. That you can use a part of today's existing earth gas networks. We also have the best connections to the North Sea port, in Rotterdam, for example, but also to the German coast. Today, the earth gas supply is already connected. You can really use it for a part. And there are, many people don't know, today the largest water supply network in Europe in the Ruhr area. Yes, if the conversion would not work, what would that mean for the Ruhr area? I am convinced that this will work for us. I have just said a lot of prerequisites, that this region brings here to be successful. And we all want to prevent the climate change. We want to bring this transformation forward and together with the will of the people and companies here, but also in Germany and all over Europe, the testing stone will be fulfilled here. Because if it doesn't work here, then it will work somewhere else. Do you already produce green steel in your work? We don't produce green steel yet, but we have been producing steel with strongly reduced CO2 for over a year. In other words, we have also tried to reduce the CO2 footprint with high-pressure water, but also with the use of renewable materials to reduce the footprint. But what we would generally call green steel, that will only work with the construction of a new plant, and it will then start operating from the beginning of '26. We don't want to prevent the CO2 emission in your work. In your work, too, it is powerful, logically, the work is large. So it imitates a lot. At the moment, are you on a trial scale? Did I understand that correctly and then want to scale it? Yes, we are no longer on a trial state, but we have established it on the existing high-pressure soils. We are still in a trial state with hydrogen. And you are right, with 20 million tons of CO2 emissions, we are a huge source. But that's why the best part of a goal is to eliminate this 20 million at one single site through the new technologies. Yes, give me a big example. How much hydrogen would you need for your work? Yes, if we replace the four high-pressure soils, then we need 800,000 tons of hydrogen. And for the first step, which we plan from '26, we will then need almost 100,000 tons of hydrogen at the end of the final phase. And by the end of the decade, almost 300,000 tons. Yes, there are always such units. You can imagine that so hard. In a lecture, you brought the gasometer into the conversation in Oberhausen. I think everyone has a bit of an eye for how big that is. A gasometer, how much would that be? We need that to stay in the picture. We need the capacity of the gasometer, two times per hour, completely filled with hydrogen. Two times per hour. Do you already have an idea where this should all come from? Yes, we are intensively involved with many partners here from the environment, but also from close distances in the Netherlands, for example, to the MENA states, the regions around the Mediterranean, in order to prepare corresponding projects. And the corresponding implementations will also, if we order the first system, at the end of this year, we will also concretize this supply, so that we can get hydrogen from it in the coming years. Yes, it is an advantage if you produce it in the south. Mr. Brotmann, with whom I spoke, said, we should not always see hydrogen as something that comes from the North Sea coast, because it will be expensive. Let us see it globally. Let us also go to the south, or to North Africa. Is this a perspective that you have in mind? The advantage of getting it from the near future is of course that you will have much more time available. That is why the first supply steps will certainly come from the near environment, so up to the North Sea, just as you described. But for a long time, Germany has a very close populated country, has accordingly few surface resources, which can be harvested through wind and sun to electricity, to corresponding competition costs. And that is why we will certainly give a global hydrogen economy. The developments have already started. And my point of view is that it is a energy good or for us a reduction means good, as is currently being handled worldwide. Okay, I thank you for the conversation and I click on the thumb that it all works in our own interests. I thank everyone for this conversation. Thank you very much. Have a nice day. We have heard from our examples that hydrogen technology is a central, if not even the central part of the energy transition. And that the calm area is not only located in the starting points, but already sprints, namely in full speed. That is important for the region, but also for all of us. After all, we all have the goal of becoming independent of coal, oil or gas. I thank you for listening. That was the last episode of our podcast on peace. If you don't know all the episodes yet, please take a look at our little archive. I would be happy. The podcast series "On peace, a journey through the new peace area" is produced by the Brand 1 Media AG, in the office of the regional association Ruhr. Redaction Christian Weimeyer, Alexandra Endres, Roger Krenz and Frank Dahlmann. Moderation Frank Dahlmann.