Visualization for Roadway Using Bentley Tools with Tyler Mills

Hello yet again and welcome back to we make civil engineering look good This is your old Sam mightle here with you as always and in this episode I was honored to talk to Tyler Mills who is a roadway engineer for lock-ner and not only is he a Wonderful engineer in his own right, but he's also become passionate about visualization and communicating projects using a variety of tools Most specifically from the Bentley suite and so I appreciated this perspective because there are a lot of those working in public Transportation projects that use Bentley products and are in that workflow in that ecosystem And so he was able to share how he uses Micro station and lumin art and these other tools to get some really good results I also recommend you connect with him on LinkedIn. It's linkedin.com/inslash Tyler TYLR and my LL past PE and you can see some of his visualization right on there and always you know make sure to check out lockners Page as well. I think it's hwlockner.com So without further ado my conversation with Tyler all right I'm excited to have on the podcast with me Tyler Mills Tyler. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you today? I'm doing well. It's good to be able to finally connect with you and talk to you I'm excited and you do a lot of work in transportation and visualization I want to I want to get into the visualization especially that's kind of my hobby and passion But before we get there kind of give us your background and how you ended up in transportation design in the first place Sure, yeah So right now I'm a roadway designer for lockner engineering Working the likes and then Kentucky office Born and raised in Kentucky So I'd say you know my path to now As far as professionally I started off with the with the state of the transportation cabinet Kentucky transportation cabinet work there for about four and a half years Took a short journey into a landscape architecture firm as a site designer For about six months before I realized that I still belonged in roadway So that then from there I went into lock fortunately I was able to get in with lockner and I really enjoyed the last I guess I've been here for about three and a half years now in this likes in an office So but kind of what got me into engineering is I was always really interested in the you know math and science and everything and and transportation specifically is just I was just found myself being drawn more and more towards that aspect whenever you know Going on a trip somewhere. I noticed I was paying more attention to like oh how do they do? You know roads different here or like why was that? Like if my dad was driving like why do my dad have so much trouble finding the exit to you know get to the big Vacation spot or something like that so you know that started picking up on that kind of interest and then But I really didn't settle on Engineering until probably right at the end of high school and then fortunately my my dad He was working at a small college and they had a career fair and The transportation cabinet had a scholarship program. He just happened to meet somebody there They started talking about me coming up on college and I got an application of that and applied and got in and You know decided okay. Let's give civil engineering a shot a shot and just fell in love with it really and You know I really like How wide of a spectrum you can You know how many different areas and people you can affect You know hopefully for the better when it comes to transportation because I mean it's everywhere And so I think that's that's really my underlying I guess passion behind it is the Trying to affect you know do as much good as as possible and you know try to help people Even if it's you know a lot of it from the day to day is very much Nets and bolts math and science and getting into CAD can be kind of tedious But keep that overall bigger picture in mind of you know why why we're doing these projects and How it can benefit people and that's it's probably my underlying You know reason to be in this field That's cool and you keep mentioning Kentucky Transportation cabinet. Is that like the same as a Department of Transportation in other states? Yeah, yeah, so that that's the equivalent so it's like the division and so I guess the transportation cabinet it Income says I think there's like an aviation aviation division and there's other things within that and then there's a department of highways that's under the KYTC umbrella so but In Kentucky were pretty much highway oriented so you know division of highways was Most of most of that focus unlike when you have like a bigger City center that has other mass transit options Right that probably sets up more of the funding and the focus but Kentucky's mostly highways and bridges so for for cars That makes sense and it sounds similar to my own I mean I started out Nevada DOT in roadway design for several years before kind of focusing on visualization So and then you've mentioned lockner is that HW lockner or is that different? Yes, HW lockner, okay, they drop the HW or is it still the same? You know, I think it's still the same. That'd be a question for you know corporate office I guess but I've met other people From HW lockner so I just didn't know if it was something that had changed Yeah, no, I think it's still HW lockner I think it a lot of the logos and stuff it usually is saying locker now, but But yeah, no same company national firm and I definitely listen to the previous episodes where you had Terry Walters on From from lockner. I've got to I've got to know Terry a little bit over the last few years And he's he's been awesome to get to know and a great Resource when it comes to the technology and visualization and you know all that all that crazy, you know background work that he does as a What's it technology evangelist the block? So I know that stuff. Yeah, he's he's quite the lines Terry for sure and so when you were at the Can Kentucky cabinet and transportation? I may have got that correctly or not, but were you doing is that a Bentley workflow? Yes, so Kentucky is all in on on Bentley As far as I know it's it's been that way for a while So when I was with the cabinet You know a lot of the as an EIT is pretty much my EIT years at the cabinet and then since it joined lockner as a PE so we I was mostly in micro station inroads SS2 That that sort of workflow mostly focused on plan production for like bridge replacement projects is a lot of the stuff we had in house Then I'd get involved with some of the consultant projects whenever there'd be public involvement that you know we would we would still be Managing and running the public meetings and public outreach and But working with the consultant who's actually doing the design so Whenever I had you know was involved with any larger projects it really had more public involvement You know as a design it was the consultant designing it but still got to be exposed to figuring out like what's the best message like what kind of tools do we have to show the public you know whether it's I remember when we first started using like Google Earth KMZ files and that being like a huge game changer like You know seven years ago pulling that into a public meeting and actually being able to show The you know the plan lines on a Google Earth aerial and be like you live here and this is where the project is and That being crazy and now to see even just in the last Six years how far we've come with that kind of stuff is is insane to think about for me like Yeah, actually be able to fly through a 3d visual of the corridor versus just relying on Plan plan sheet lines in a 2d field Yeah, I've seen some people Trying to argue that all they need is like Google Earth with a KMZ and I'm just like What if you cut out a section of mountain? What are you gonna do? There is no edit function in Google Earth so right yeah That's we all start somewhere, but it sounds like Those early days is kind of when you develop that passion for public outreach and communicating the projects to people Yeah, so you know when I was when I was first learning a lot of it was Really just learning what all went into the design aspect, you know the pure engineering side Making sure I knew how to put put together a plant like KYTC the legal document is you know 2d plants at PDF so when we're When a consultant submits a project or we're submitting a project to be to go to bid You know, it still has to be that 2d set of plans, you know black and white on paper But you know as I started really getting into more More of the behind the scenes project team tasks or When it came to the public involvement I started really seeing more of the benefit of like well, you know how else can we really. show this how it's going to look. One, so that we, you know, in just internally can communicate better engineer to engineer. We may even be looking at the plans differently, you know, much less. We were trying to take this set of plans that, you know, it took us a couple of years to really learn how to read, and now we're trying to explain it to the public, you know, depending on the setting, they know how vocal they might be, they may tell you, you know, some people you don't really know how truthful, through so they might be when they say, yeah, I understand that. You know, everybody has a little human nature and a little bit of pride, and sometimes they don't want to admit that they have no idea what's going on. And being able to like, you know, just eliminate the guessing game when it comes to that kind of stuff. So I started getting more into, you know, incorporate when we'd have meetings with a project team that wasn't involved with the project day to day, I tried to make sure we always had more Google Earth stuff pulled up. So at least, you know, have a real clear, at least like an aerial image of exactly what we were looking at with the KMZ file. And then it started turning into more of, once I started getting more training in the inroads SS2, seeing what we could do more with 3D modeling. And, you know, when I was in the EIT days, it was pretty, pretty rough kind of sketch to get anything 3D to show, you know, it was like display your triangles and like color the, color the grass and individually. And then, and then even then the image had just like the black background or whatever your background image on your CAD software was. And, but still just kind of naturally working it from there. And a lot of it depending on the project manager or your deadline or whatever, you know, there was a lot of limitations on what you could really explore. So it was more just like, you know, get the plans done and then we'll worry about that later. You know, there was a lot of limitations. And then I would say, you know, so one other thing I tried to really get into was there was a couple projects where for public involvement, we'd have these exhibits. And so, you know, well, if we can't, if the 3D technology isn't quite there, our skill set to do it isn't quite there, you know, because we're not video game designers, is there any way we can do some rough Photoshop edits or go out to the project and take photos and do like the 2D and just draw what the road looks like or might look like, you know, just trying to get a little creative on low budget, low effort kind of endeavors. And then when I, I would say a big shift happened when I came to Lockner and the the law of the land, at least with my project manager, my supervisor now is everything is fully modeled in 3D first. That's how we design. And when the focus is on, we need to make sure our design works in the 3D modeling, then everything else, you know, I feel like the world just really opens up with what kind of options you have moving forward. And that you can really just push it as far as technology allows you to. As opposed to designing with the intent of, as long as it shows up on the 2D plan set, you're good to go. That if the focus first is, make sure it all works in 3D, we're going to have this thing fully developed. Then it'll still show up on the 3D, the 2D plans and it allows us to communicate so much more effectively in house, but also with our client and with the public. It's so much easier to, you know, push out of visual that they can really grasp and kind of see exactly what the projects look alike. Did you ever use any auto-disk projects products along the way? I would say, therefore probably like that six months that I spent at a landscape architecture firm, I used a little bit, but not enough to really get into it. When I was in school, everybody used we just used AutoCAD. There was no Bentley training when I was at, I went to University of Kentucky. It was only AutoCAD, but it was very minimal exposure to it. As soon as I started the cabinet, I think I could probably get around a little bit, but I'm not very proficient in the AutoDisk environment right now. In Bentley, you have a few options for visualization. I mean, you can do some rendering in the design environment, like something like open roads or in roads. You can use concept station, you can use Lumen RT, kind of what's been your evolution within the visualization suite within Bentley? And what do you kind of gravitate towards today? Yeah, so we're still at a transition point, I would say, between any kind of new project we get in, has been in open roads, but we still have a couple of projects that we're trying to get to construction that everything's in roads SS2. So we're kind of playing both environments right now. But I would say one thing that's been nice within Bentley is that they both, they both really, I would say export and they both play nice with the rest of Bentley suite. So whether it's Lumen RT or getting into some of their other stuff, concept station, context capture, that's been one thing that's been nice for just the nature of where we are, where we're working in both in roads SS2 and open roads. So I would say the first, like coming purely from the design engineer, only working in in roads SS2 and then picking up some open roads and starting to get into that, you know, the first place we went was Lumen RT, I would say, taking the 3D design that we have, because that's our big focus and being able to just hit the export button to Lumen and then Bentley being able to give a pretty good rendering of what the project, you know, and pretty easily being able to assign materials, you know, really actually get a visual of the design. You can, you know, depending on what kind of data you had as far as the existing terrain, you know, there's all kinds of options there for just getting some kind of, you know, rough visual in. Kentucky's pretty, I don't know how other states do it, but Kentucky's got a lot of nice resources. We do a lot of work. Our office does a lot of work in Kentucky and Tennessee. We cover basically those two areas for design for Lockner, but I can, you know, Kentucky have been doing a lot in and they have a pretty wide coverage of at least like some basic LiDAR flights, like they made it a focus to try and get as much coverage of the state as they could to be used on any project. So even if you don't have, if you're to the point where you don't have survey yet for the project or survey coverage, you can still get some decent LiDAR coverage and I don't know how they capture it, like, I know it's fixed wing flights, but I don't know, you know, what level or accuracy they're really going, but I don't know that much detail on it, but, you know, you can at least get some kind of terrain to put your design in and people understand sort of where you're at. And then in Lumen, there's a little bit of an asset library to where you can drop in trees and some, you know, some basic stuff to dress it up. So that was probably the first spot is like, you know, get a rough terrain, either it's our survey that we're getting from Tennessee or Kentucky or where the LiDAR drop in and mostly just to look at the design. And then what we really, well, Lockner, the Lexington office had really been in some projects we're working on in Tennessee. We've got a few segments of this highway down there, probably totals like six miles just outside of Knoxville and they had really already been focusing on a very, you know, a nicer next, you know, I'd say like next level visualization for some public involvement that was coming up. So when I came in, they had already gone in and released for one of the segments had got a fixed wing flight and it started some photogrammetry work. So that was all in Bentley context capture. So they hired a they subbed out to get a pilot to fly the area. They got all the imagery and the data, you know, processed that and then still had, I kind of came on the end of that. So we still, I think, had to get a subbed out some of the work to actually put all of the pieces together with, who was it, I give him a proper shout out at Transgraphics Consulting, his name is Martin and he helped kind of put the pieces together as far as like we had all the engineering data and we're engineers. trying to figure out the visualization world and how to make a pretty picture. And the stuff that doesn't always come natural to, if I'm going to stereotype myself as an engineer, that stuff doesn't always come natural. So we're definitely not programmers or anything like that. So we were using the Bentley products as best we could, but still needed an extra hand to piece the final thing together to give Tennessee this a nice visual product to show at the public meeting. But then I'd say the last three years, the focus has been, what's the best way to make this efficient? And most of it's been within the Bentley environment. One thing that's nice about-- and I'll get into the next progression in a little bit. But I kind of wanted to bring up the work that you had been doing with Vision. And in almost in a way, we've got the nice, I guess, almost the next step in this evolution is really refining what kind of graphics are available. Because what's the Bentley's done a really nice job with their suite, making it easy for engineers to do. When it comes to really refining that experience of the assets available, and with these jobs, one thing we've really been fighting is the-- if you get a six-mile corridor that you're trying to model all of a sudden, you've got these giant files. And it's not always easy to manage. Or even just open the file. When you have all of the layers, we're working on different parts. And then you have one file that has the entire project you're trying to export. And you're hoping that it'll actually export before it crashes because you have so much stuff in there, especially when you start adding traffic and all that kind of stuff. But I would say I'm definitely very much focused in the Bentley environment currently. And we're working on just trying to see what we can do in-house as engineers within our own wheelhouse. Yeah, and I think you've put it well. They have some really good tools, especially when you're in that ecosystem already. But to their credit, their master's at design software and visualizations are different problems to solve. And so it's hard for them to focus as much on visualization when they're doing so many things on design. And also to their credit, we've been in discussions with them about making sure that our software that we're developing is going to be as interoperable as possible so that it will be close to that same sort of ecosystem. Eventually, we're still in those discussions. That's our goal is to make sure that when you're designing something and you update it, it will update in vision as well. So we'll get those tools. One question I had, you mentioned the LiDAR data and bringing that into Lumen. Does Lumen bring that in natively? Or do you do some sort of export to get into a mesh? That would be-- I've brought it in through. So we would bring in the LiDAR, at least for KYTC. It's an application built into their microstation or open roads environment. Their CAD setup. So it's basically like an application in there. They've got a tool. And then it pulls from their database. You select an area wherever you want to in the state that has the coverage. And then from there, I guess from whatever their database is, it downloads a tile or however many tiles of-- I believe it comes in as a DTM file or a 10 file, so a microstation surface file. However many tiles you selected in your dialog. And so first, it brings it into microstation or open roads. And then when you export it out, that's how Lumen knows how to handle it. Is it sees it already constructed in your file? As you'll have the data and then you'll have to either display the graphics. So you use microstation or inroads to process that information and display the triangles or whatever it is. However you want to display it and then export it to Lumen from there. So-- and then there's a couple ways you can either assign it to a certain layer already so that Lumen knows, hey, it's this layer. I need to put grass on that. Or you can just export it. It'll be like a gray shape in Lumen and you can Lumen pick grass and put grass on it. So just whatever you want to do. And in Lumen, they have some-- they've got some good options, too, to actually have like texture to the grass where it's not just like the flat image. It'll have-- if you zoom in real close, it'll be grass flowing in the wind. So-- Yeah, but yeah, it's mostly stuff processed through your design cab. Got it. And I've dabbled in some photogrammetry and out where I live. We live in the desert. And so it's pretty easy to make your photogrammetry mess. But I've heard from others that it's more challenging in places that have a lot of trees. Do you guys experience a lot of challenges getting good photogrammetry and the heavily forested areas of Kentucky? Yes, yes and no. It's-- well, yes, especially at the beginning. So that's one area we're really trying to focus in on is-- I mentioned this first project that was underway when I got to Lochner. It was one segment. I can mention that one. It's Alcoa Highway in Tennessee for T.Dot. And so we had a fixed wing flight for that. And in that particular area, the focus was like this commercial strip of this highway. So that wasn't so much as an issue, but the trees weren't so much an issue, except for on the boundaries. But we were able to kind of like clip where our proposed model was going to go. And then where we saw holes in the photogrammetric surface where the trees were, because we just kept through a tree and now it's just a hole in space, we would then use the lumen trees to drop in and try to mass that. So then the next step is this longer segment. It's still in progress, so I can't really give too many detailed identifier details. But we is another, the next project we had, or the other project we have done a fixed wing flight, we had it subbed out of fixed wing pilot. And they flew it. And in this one, this camera apparatus, the first one was had five cameras on the bottom of this fixed wing. One straight down, or NADIR, and then four cameras at cardinal directions at oblique angles to try and get some of that detail. The second flight that we started, and I helped process while Zett Hawkner had a nine camera apparatus on the bottom of the plane. So one straight down or NADIR, and eight at 45 degree angles, you know, in a circle, to try and fill in some of those gaps as much as you could, to look through as much as the canopy as you could. But still, you know, they're flying it. This, you know, don't quote me on the elevation. I think it was like a thousand feet over the ground and there. And it was, it was a huge cover. I mean, as far as where we're at, it was, you know, the only way to handle it, because this one was, I just looked at it again today. It was like 4,400 acres of coverage. It was six miles of highway that we were trying to get a model for. And it, you know, took, we ended up using 50,000 images to three terabytes of data for the photogrammetry. Wow. And it took. So, but parts of the corridor did have some pretty heavy tree cover. So, as far as a visualization tool, it was, it's been amazing. And, you know, the client has been able to use this. We've modeled out the entire six-mile corridor, including this complicated interchange that had a, you know, one large stakeholder at this interchange that it served. And they were able to take the visualization and we used some after, I took it into After Effects once we, you know, planned the, let me back up. We did, we kind of did the same thing. Like when we put in our proposed model, there were still holes in the tree canopy where we cut slice through trees. So, you know, but it's, but it's on the edges. So, we were able to try and mass that as best we could. We're making design, you know, still making engineering decisions on, well, what data is important for them to see in making decisions there on whether we need to extend our proposed model or, you know, where to cut off the existing terrain. But they were able to, clearly see, they're developed area that they were concerned about how it was going to operate with this new highway. Their tree canopy wasn't an issue. So the main problem we were trying to solve, I guess that the tree canopy issue wasn't too big of a factor. So we were still able to pretty effectively use this as a tool to then plan our in-lumen, put it all in-lumen, plan out different flight paths for, I think we did end up doing like a four video series of for different purposes. One for just the general corridor, fly through for the general public to see the full project. One and then one just for that client or for that stakeholder for their employees, how they would use it. One for the visitors to that stakeholder, how they would use the interchange. And then another longer, more general information of the project. So we were able to generate these nice fly through flight paths and then take those videos into After Effects into Adobe After Effects. So I tried to, I did my best to learn After Effects so I could go through and do labels and follow traffic paths and call out as we were flying through. This is this building that you need to know about as you're flying through to get your bearings and the client, we're still working on finalizing some of these changes. But they've already been able to use it in right away negotiations with this stakeholder to show them. I don't want to say there was tension or anything, but I think there was a little bit of, they need a little assistance in the communication between the parties. And what we were able to do with this visualization is to everybody was actually able to speak the same language on what was going on and what their concerns were and how their needs were met. And so they were able to progress in the negotiations partially because of the visualization we were able to put together. And actually, and they were able to show it to some other stakeholders and now some design changes ended up happening because of this visualization. So that's part of the reason we're still ongoing is we're finalizing, we're incorporating the final design changes that came through on the project. And then just to touch more on, you know, photogrammetry is the pretty, pretty powerful tool I'm coming to learn. And I guess the next phase we're going into as an office is to incorporate drones. And, you know, from a fixed wing, you can get a ton of coverage. You know, and they had some pretty high powerful, you know, high power cameras on the bottom and it was, you know, a crazy amount of data. But like you said, like in Kentucky, and Tennessee, we got a ton of tree coverage and especially the rural areas. So now we're starting to figure out like, where's the best place, where the fixed wing is the way to go. Where would we want to supplement like flying a drone, you know, even closer to get under the canopy. Or, you know, what are some smaller areas that we can just cover with a drone now that, you know, we didn't have the skill set to do that to do, you know, a couple of years ago. But I ended up getting my part 107 certification last year so that I could, you know, learn to fly drones and fly drones for the company. And so now we're figuring out how can we take this, you know, it was, that was a pretty. A decent investment when we, you know, hiring a fixed wing to cover that amount of area and producing this huge model. But we found a lot of benefits that we can apply to all of our projects. So how can we get the cost down and the, and the efficiency, you know, tuned in and how can we use a drone to achieve that, that same level of communication and quality. And so we're going to go to our smaller projects that don't have that, that kind of budget. So there's, there's a corridor we're working now here in Lexington that's like a smaller city street. And initially I did a pilot, you know, I did a test in, in the winter when there was no tree canopy in the, it's this street that has a lot of older mature trees in the utility strip. I went ahead and flew it up a part of it to see what kind of detail we. Pick up because one of the, one of the things mentioned in the, this is, this is kind of an upcoming project that we're trying to go after. But, you know, one thing that was mentioned in this is, you know, art, these mature trees are probably going to be important, especially when you get these established neighborhoods. So how can we get exact data, or you know, most exact data we can on the size of the trunks and their location exactly, you know, compared to the sidewalks of the roads or potential shared use path and figure if we can fly this with a drone and get an actual image, a 3d image of exactly where that tree is instead of just trying to rely on. You know, I mean, when you send a, the traditional more, you know, picking up with a survey or is, is great, you get the exact location. But then when you hand it off to the designer, they may or not, we may or may not know how to exactly interpret what's been drawn and to represent that tree and how to avoid the tree. You know, we can't see and if you just have a point on a CAD drawing, you know, that doesn't really show where, oh, there's this main route that's actually pushing up the existing sidewalk going over here. You know, you don't pick that up and necessarily in the 2d survey and, and, you know, and you can get around that with site visits and, and that kind of observation to get out in the field and really look at it. But as, as a nice tool to be able to have on hand in the office for anybody working on the project to then just pull it up and see this photogrammetry visualization of, oh, that's exactly what the tree looks like. Like that's, I see that as something we're trying to go towards of really being able to clearly communicate that kind of detail when we need to. The drone can more or less help get under that canopy, but the next thing we're also, I don't have the skillset to do is, you know, I'm not a surveyor and I haven't really worked with terrestrial scanning, but we're now partnering with some Kentucky transportation cabinet employees and working to see what kind of workflow, you know, they might benefit from pairing photogrammetry from a drone. And their terrestrial ground light our scanners that they use already in their workflow that really gets under the canopy and gets the clear picture of the ground. So really trying to find, you know, come into the table with all these different techniques and trying to figure out where they meet and where one could assist the others been. Or it's been a really fun few months, you know, that we've really been diving into this. Yeah, and I can see some of that on the visualization you sent me, you know, the blend between the photogrammetry and kind of real time game engine and you guys were doing that pretty well. What what's your drone of choice? So for me, I'm flying just a Phantom 4 pro and a Phantom 4 advanced. So those have been, those have been pretty solid for me. The, you know, I chose those I, when I got started, I didn't jump straight into the Phantom. I had a Mavic Mini when I was before I had my license just to, just to see if it was something I would even be interested in doing and immediately fell in love with it. And then worked my way up to a Mavic Air 2 when it first came out and, and I was able to get, I forgot my license. My certificate, I was able to get some photogrammetry going, but then I started learning more about the aspects of the camera and specifically like the shutter and how which one was bet, you know, could be better for photogrammetry accuracy. And, you know, Mavic Air 2, I was able to power through and just manually fly, stop, take a picture stop, take a picture, but with the Phantom, they have a, I guess it's a mechanical shutter, a global shutter is opposed to most others that are linear rolling shutter. So if you're flying with any kind of speed that could lead to distortion in your images, but with the Phantom, you can fly. I don't know what the max recommended, but I think I usually can fly about eight miles an hour and it helps to eliminate that distortion. So you don't get any extra kind of warp in your, your photogrammetry. And, and I guess, you know, and I chose the Phantom as well as we were, I was able to get some really pretty pictures out of the Mavic Air 2 when I would, when I would fly and, and put it through Bentley context capture. But then as we started moving from, OK, this has been a great visualization tool, but how accurate can we really get these models and how can we start to incorporate this into actual, you know, really design. Just to really try to supplement the survey data we have. So then I started really. into that kind of stuff of, and when I started learning with a global shutter and trying to eliminate as much distortion as I could and to, you know, I went from flying at 100 feet over the ground to trying to get as close to like 65, 70 feet above the ground to just get even even more extra detail. But I really like the Phantom series and then I mentioned working with, we're kind of partnering right now with some staff at Kentucky Transportation Cabinet and they're flying the Phantom for RTK model. So, which is the same camera, but it just has enhanced geolocation sensors for more accurate product. So we're, you know, part of what we're doing now is, you know, trying to look at all the different products we've been coming up with and how they compare it in, we haven't, we haven't really ventured in, I'd really like to get into the more like fixed wing drones eventually, but I don't, I don't really have like 10 grand sitting around. So yeah, I can tell you know what you're talking about. I'm, I'm, I have a Mavic, what is it? Mavic Air 2, I think you mentioned that, that's what I dabble with, but, but I just, I just play around with it. So, um, this is, this has been fascinating, I appreciate your insights into this. What's kind of just in closing, what, what is the leading edge of visualization that you're using now and like what do you hope it's going to evolve into in the coming years? Can I say visualization? I mean, drones, photogrammetry, anything related to that. Yeah, I think, um, you know, what, what we're really focusing in on right now is, you know, at least speaking personally, and then you know, for the people I've been working with in my office, um, is the last few years has just really been diving into what can we do with the tools that we have available to us right now. And that's led to, you know, just for us part, you know, it's not that, it's not that this stuff hasn't ever been done before by anybody, but for us in what's practical for us to apply to our projects and, and you know, within our engineering practice. The last couple of years I would say has been a huge discovery period for us as to what is available and what can we do and, you know, figuring out, oh, hey, I can pick up a drone license and we can expand this. And now, right now, I think our main goal is to figure out where best to apply those, for what level, you know, right now if you're on the, if you're on the planning side or you're even just trying to first explore a project that, you know, if, on the consulting side, you know, we're always watching when projects are going to be advertised. So, you know, what, what level of detail can we really go into before we even like, you know, just to figure out what the project might be or what would be useful for the client to see without, without, you know, being able, having the budget to fly the fixed wing for everything and get a huge high level of detail, you know, we're figuring out like what's really practical for the engineering side when we're planning versus okay, when we get into the project, what can we do on the front end when we have four or five alternatives, you know, that could cover who knows how much area, you know, what kind of level of detail is practical for us to go to there versus okay, now you hone it in and you only have one corridor and now you really need to communicate with the public exactly what's going on to get their input or you're getting into the right away phase when you want, when you really need them to understand exactly what's going to happen so that you can have a fair negotiation for any kind of property acquisition. So, we're figuring out, taking all these tools and all these fun things we've been doing that we've really enjoyed doing, figuring out where they best, you know, plug in and what's practical versus like what might be overkill or and I would say like moving forward it would be I think there's so much that we could do the technology is really getting there to where, you know, almost at any phase of the project, whether it's before the project even starts or when you start planning or designing that you almost have the same quality of visualization for everything you do and I think that's kind of the next steps for us as being able to almost like have a consistent level of detail, you know, across all platforms without, you know, a huge difference in investment, you know, because not every project is going to have a unlimited budget but I think really the technology is getting there to where the budget, you know, these processes we're starting to be able to figure out how to do them, you know, more efficiently in the computing powers there and, you know, especially tools like Vision that's making it so much easier for us as engineers to get into like a gaming engine type environment without having to personally, you know, I've started to try to explore a little bit of Unreal Engine and, you know, or Blender or any that kind of stuff and that's still like totally foreign language to me but to be able to get into an interface where I can put in the design stuff I've done and I know how to do that very efficiently and then this product will now make it look, you know, really pretty and so everybody can actually see what's going on. I think I think for me, I have to learn after effects. You can get the the labels and the arrows and all that stuff. Yes. Yes. Really model. Exactly. Those arrows show in the travel those like floating moving arrows. Those are, that's a real nice, it took me a long time to be able to get anything even close to that and I'm definitely in after effects and I'm definitely not there and then I've seen the stuff you've been putting out on Vision to where you just drop it in and it's animated and ready to go and I'm just like, yeah, there it is. That's what I tried to do for like a month. Yeah. So I see what you're saying. I mean, in summary, I think you're saying it seems like there's going to be a convergence with design and visualization where it's as ubiquitous. You know, it's on every project. It's available and easy, but until then how can we find the efficiency and overlap so that when we do photogrammetry, we can do it in a way that it's useful for design, planning and visualization. Is that kind of what you were going for? That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. That's awesome. Well, Tyler, I appreciate this. If someone wanted to connect with you or learn more about Lockner, what's the best way to do that? Well, you know, Lockner as a company were online, hwlockner.com and does Lockner does have a LinkedIn presence. And then I would say as far as engineering content, I'm definitely on LinkedIn. I try to stay pretty active on there. Just Tyler Mills, comma, PE on LinkedIn. And, you know, I don't know how many Tyler Mills is there out there, but I'm the one in Lexington, Gooddecki. So, and got posted all kinds of drone stuff and visualization stuff as much as I can. And so yeah, please, anybody wants to reach out? Simmy, a message on LinkedIn. We'll talk about it. Awesome. Thanks, Tyler. Thank you, Sam.