‘VisionQuest’ Episodes 3-4 Deep Dive

hello welcome back to house of r i'm joanna robinson and we're old now and our body sucks and it might be time to retire it's mallory rubin and also me uh you interesting i feel like you're a little bit more of a becky than i am it's genuinely a fact hi we're here to talk about vision quest episodes three and four uh really excited to get into it uh we're halfway through the season that is wild we're going to talk about all of that right after this all right quick programming reminders what can we say we can say that we have seen the film wildwood wicker and one of us has seen clay face and the other one will have seen it by tomorrow yeah gonna have some fun movie chats fun find time in the movies fall movie extravaganza that's right on house of r that's coming excited uh more vision quest is coming that's right other things are coming stay tuned great um how can folks find out all of the things that we're up to mallory rubin thanks for asking here's what i recommend follow the why not come on why do you do it follow house of r on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts at house of r you know what out house of r quiet months of silence i know so yeah it's just at house of r yeah the only name in the game right now on instagram pod tiktok at house of r pod follow us follow the ringer verse as well of course uh and follow the pod follow the ringer verse channel watch full video episodes of house of r and midnight boys pew pew do it all send us your emails the inbox and we'll see you next time on house of r is open hobbits and dragons at gmail.com listen to those of you in the comments right now on our fun little post that we've been doing saying where's the paul of fame we're gonna do the paul of fame stay tuned stay tuned it's not dune yet we have some paul of fame plans don't worry we don't like to over promise and under deliver yeah we've never done that before but we do have it's on the schedule we will be doing a paul of fame stay tuned maybe sooner than you think i'm gonna think about okay spoiler warning today yeah what do we got what do we got through episode four vision quest duh yeah all of marvel comics that's right duh all of the mcu nothing about the elizabeth holmes documentary though because i haven't seen it yet so shut your mouth me neither and you know what i feel sad that i am not participating in this moment i i will see it soon i i came so close to going on saturday and as you know i was out of town like got in the way this is the worst time that's right of my life to be out of town but i had a delightful time in new york yeah tell us about the fall foliage give us a little fall foliage corner here gosh tell us about the fall foliage give us a little fall foliage corner here the yellows the blazing red red oranges and you're in a very autumnal i i'm just still in a new york state of mind honestly i'm still there i got it was wonderful you brought me because you are a good friend despite you being of course team green yeah the red apple green apple apple wars uh you're an angel and so you brought me a red apple i don't because i've never seen that before in my life i don't know what that is it just appeared you brought that to me for me to enjoy even though you would not partake obviously i don't know what that is yeah never and i look forward i would never touch that with my fingers wow yeah geez sheesh um so that's a spoiler warning that's right yeah and an apple warning let's get into it great these episodes are called reboot and malware malware i like how you did that like we were in inception though with mall yeah great uh written by cindy apple perhaps that's her name maybe a pell but it's close to apple uh michael taylor and both directed by ganja montero who we talked about uh at length when we covered agatha um great director did a great job i thought with these episodes also directed an episode of pluribus so just like a really uh talented person as i mentioned at the top we're halfway through the season so i just thought we might start here and say we're only two weeks in and we're only two weeks in and we're only two weeks in and we're halfway done with the story yeah does it feel like we're halfway done with the story how are you enjoying this show so far and like how does it feel to be smack dab in the middle of everything yeah i think you know my preference is always for shows to run one per week so that we have the longest possible experience to share things with each other marinate yeah with the bad babies marinate uh the play around on theory corner etc so it's always of course sad when we we move through a season a little bit more quickly than that um you know i i post a lot of stuff on my i posed the perhaps straw man uh question last week of whether the fact that there were two youtube channel and i post a lot of stuff on my youtube channel and i post a lot of stuff on my youtube meaty like hour-long episodes a week would slow down any of the mass uh uh partaking you know if it would in any way be an an inhibition for people um opting in and watching in real time i i don't I still don't have a feel for that. I have no idea if that's the case or not. Hopefully not. I will say episode four was my favorite of the season by like quite a bit. I thought episode four was wonderful. Mind palace stuff. just like really creative fun interior yeah the concepts it actually like i had a question i wanted to ask you based on how good i thought episode four was about like a potential alternate structure for the season um i want to hear your overall thoughts first and then we can circle back to that but yeah four was like i was thinking back to our discussion after um episodes one and two about how there was so much kind of work to do at the beginning of this show and we wound up more quickly than we had anticipated in certain places like vision and tommy being together now at the midway mark episode four being the strongest it gives me like a even more confidence i think than we already felt that the back half of the season is just gonna be like really fun and really good so i'm excited for for the rest of the road from here you know not everything to this point still is like perfect to me i think episode three was like much like episode one and two a little bit mixed for me um before was humming four we were just like at the right frequency i'm ready to rock from here yeah i was i was talking about this with a friend last night where he was having a very mixed reaction and he was like everything inside of vision is working so well for me and he's like the outside is is really mixed the paladin stuff is mixed the tommy stuff is mixed and i agree in some areas and and not in others but i think with the introduction of jacosta and whatever is happening there with with dr joe um that's you know and we have like a an infiltration of a gala and a heist and stuff like that all all kinds of things that i like like i think the opportunity there is really exciting i think you know the ending with ultron occupying vision's body is like extremely exciting really really great from paul bettany i think episode three was kind of weak i do and um and i think i think a problem with this show and again i'm episode four is really energizing and i'm really excited for the back half but i think a problem the show is like we're pretty sure where this is all going to end which is vision accepting tommy is one of the things that's going to happen in this episode four is really energizing and i'm really excited for the back half but i think a problem this show is like we're pretty sure where this is all going to end which is vision accepting tommy is one of the which is vision accepting tommy is one of the his there's not a lot of tension i'm like is vision going to discover his inner well of emotionality and step into his role as a father and accept tommy is billy in the season i don't know but tommy and billy as his children and like um they're like he's resistant there's no tension for me there so there has to be something else if if there's a question as to where the story's going because it's a disney plus show and it's not going to end with vision being like and you're not my son bye you know to quote you know to quote wanda from a famous iconic wandavision show like that's not the kind of show it is yeah exactly so then there needs to be something else yeah uh inside of it to keep keep the juices flowing do you know what i mean for sure and i do think we had unsurprisingly to that point given it is the halfway mark of an eight episode season more progress for vision on that front inside of this episode going from like wanda maximoff full name clinical distance remove emotionally into by the end a moment where tommy's like wait a minute that's the first time that you haven't made a distinction between your old self and you so like we're kind of i mean we have more road to cover for sure but we've actually already made quite a bit of progress he's in full dad joke mode throughout these episodes which was pretty entertaining i thought and he gets into more crucially than that and the comic value of that which is entertaining protective dad mode he is just fully in like you will not hurt tommy tommy is saying things this is very hot when he's in bed it really was the hottest white vision has ever been powerful certainly powerful um you know and like tommy we have all of the characters as they have been doing the whole time saying you know the thing out loud about family and what gets us to that point and so we we we are we are moving quickly to an outcome that i think you you know i assume most of the people watching the show are in the same place as us like we are um anticipating is not even a strong enough way to put it sort of like a shirt but like i i don't but but on the other hand like i don't know what's gonna happen with ultron i don't know what's gonna happen with jacosta like there are elements where i'm like much more invested in sort of the like what side of the you know ultron and this spader performance is like it's unbelievable all time they're just fantastic every single line just like so good and ultron is doing such a good job of like tiptoeing both sides of the line where it's just sort of like we see him be you know sarcastic and acerbic but also like give good parenting advice or be kind to edith or all you know all these other things and then kill your fave president roslyn without batting a a cybernetic eye so you know it's just sort of like where is ultron gonna net is actually the real question for me. Vision's going to be a good guy and a good dad at the end of the day. But what is Ultron going to do? And how does this Jocasta element, you know, he's so intrigued by her. He's so captivated by her. So like, is she going to pull him in one direction or another? Does it, do we flip the sort of angel and devil on Vision's shoulder to an angel and devil on Ultron's shoulder? Like where are we at the end of the day with that? I think this is to this point, we have more to go here, but to this point, when we consider WandaVision and Agatha and Vision Quest as a trilogy, the biggest, well, one of, but the biggest distinction, I think, that this show has to the other two is that those like larger plot, in addition to character, but plot mysteries were real drivers. This one is for our central figure. I agree with you. Less of a, where will it net out? That doesn't mean though that it's not compelling to watch, even if we have a real sense of the inevitability of the landing point, because I think the show as the capper, the bow at the end of this connected project is overtly interested in, and obviously this is the, not just subtext, the central text of the show for the characters. Like what is human nature? What does it mean to open yourself up to those connections? And so I find that even though the tension that you're identifying around those aspects for Vision and Tommy specifically, and even how Vision relates to other versions of himself, to history, that he has been, to history, that he has not lived, but downloaded and is now immersing himself in a new, just sitting quietly, kind of watching him think about that and weigh that and consider it is actually interesting to me. I'm with you that the Ultron stuff is I think just riveting. It is kind of amazing. It's so fun to feel this way when you're watching a character. Last week, after the first two episodes, we were having the discussion on the pod of like, you know, the 50/50, but it feels thematically likely apt appropriate in this story that we could be watching the things Ultron is saying about art and emotion and human nature. We want to like lean into believing that's possible, right? But there's this voice in our heads still that is of course, because it's Ultron pulling us back. He's one of our leading candidates when we go to theory corner last week on the pod, et cetera, right? So there's all this evidence that something good and true is there, but we're like, Ooh, we want to believe that we're still skeptical. Then this week, he actually stages the takeover. We have more reason than to say it was Ultron we never should have believed. And I'm in, I swing the other way on it, where I'm feeling more emboldened than ever to believe that he can be both. - Yeah. - That he could have been this entire time working his agenda to escape containment and also believe the things that he's saying, you know? And, I mean, that's what Ultron has always been is like, I believe. - Yeah. - That's what I'm doing. I believe this is for the greater good. - Yeah, sure. - What I'm doing is for the greater good. Don't we all tell ourselves that, you know? So, yeah, I agree. Like I, I don't know, it's interesting, all these characters, Paladin as well, like what is going on with all of these characters? Paladin remains a real stumbling block for me. And we got an email about this and I'll read in a second, but like, it really feels to me, and this is not complimentary, that he is like an agents of shield. Like that he's just like in a different show altogether. And I reserve the right to like change my mind about that. Or like, is this, I mean, I don't think this is the last we'll see of him, but like, you know, he got fired. Like, you know, and episode four was your favorite episode four, no Paladin. So, you know, it's just sort of like, meanwhile, and that's what makes the show feel samey. The Paladin stuff to me feels samey to other superhero stuff I've seen before. Whereas the Mind Palace, like ingenuity of the production design and sort of the literalization of the processes and stuff like that is wholly distinct and so fun. And that's what WandaVision and Agatha had going for them is there's this like really distinctive, you don't see this in another Marvel show. You don't see this in another superhero show. This like extremely creative, fun platform for the ingenuity of the production team, of the writing team and the performances. I mean, I think Emily Hampshire as Edith is just like, one of my favorite new additions. You know, I put it up there with like Madison and Yelena. Like, you know, these are like, I don't. - My phrase. - Top tier, man. But I'm like really invested in Edith. - Edith's great. So this gets to what I wanted to ask you, float to you. I think we try to not, this is across the pop culture shows at The Ringer Podcast Network. You will hear a lot of hosts say, "We don't like wanna fall into the trap "of talking about the show we didn't get "or that we thought we should have gotten." But just- - I love doing that. - Because here I think it is, there's plenty of room to ask this given the two shows that this project is most closely connected to. Should "Vision Quest" have been in its entirety what we got in episode four, which I don't think only had to be in the mind palace because we got versions of it in both spaces here. The heist gala infiltration, that's the real world. And then the Interpol sequence, which I just thought was- - I think it's the best thing the show has done. - Unbelievably entertaining. - End to end. Every single decision in the entire investigative, like it's not just Interpol, it's also just sort of like their murder board and the coroner moment and like every single beat of that. - Yes, so here's the question. Should every episode, and maybe not literally every, but like 70% of the episodes had a kind of gimmick, a concept like "WandaVision." We went through the decades of the different sitcom homages. And then in "Agatha," we started, we thought, "Oh, "Mare of Easttown," it's gonna be the TV." No, it wasn't. We shifted, but still we went through a structure broadly where of course we get the two backstory episodes for "Billy and Agatha," but what we got most of the season was every episode is a trial, a themed trial. - A thematic trial, yeah. Some worked better than others. - For sure. - You know, like the "Real Housewives" one, you know, like. - Would a version of "Vision Quest," where both in the Mind Palace, and then also ideally in the real world, the characters are engaging in genre play- - Yeah. - Have been- - Have been not only more of a piece with the other shows, but based on what we saw here, if not 10 out of 10 no notes, like 9.8 out of 10 no notes. - I mean, anything that could result in more time inside of the Mind Palace and especially, yeah, just like playing inside of tropes of something. I think specifically like the fun they had with the props of the murder board or something like that, or the costumes, like, you know, what everyone's wearing. The trenches, the like, Holmes and Watson get up, you know, like let's just find an example, you know? And that was a fun, the costume department had a really fun time with Agatha and with Wanda, you know? - For sure. - So like, yeah. - We got the little morgue moment, but that could have been an entire episode that we do. - I don't want to spend an episode in the morgue, sorry. - Even if it's with Edith and Ultron begrudgingly realizing that they're on the same page. - I'm not a CSI person, it's not for me, it's not for me. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a, it's a, it's a fun idea. Something to think about. Maybe if they get a second season, they can contemplate it. - Yeah, there we go. - All right, let's hit some mailbag questions real quick. Less questions, more comments. Mo said, "As a huge fan of the series 12 Monkeys, I can confidently tell you that Paladin, played by the great Todd Stashwick, will 100% be redeemed and become a hero. Without spoilers for 12 Monkeys, he plays a villain who you loathe but kind of admire, and subsequently, through various flashbacks and heroic actions, redeems himself to be a very likable hero. Episode three with the synthezoid, mind-clawing Paladin, gave us the thematic seeds of his origin story, and we're excited to turn him into a good guy by the end." So, if he's being typecast, based on what he did in 12 Monkeys, this listener seems, feels confident that this guy is gonna join the good guys by the end of the day. The number of 12 Monkeys Easter eggs that are in these episodes-- - Lost on me, even though I watched some of that show. - Off the charts, in a way, like, the big, like, scientific organization that I guess Tony Stark got, like, data from, which you have some feelings about? - No, I don't, not really. It's just, actually, so-- - Mark Ridge Biotech? - Yeah, I'm delighted to have President Laura Roslin here in any capacity, obviously, brief though it was. I, it is interesting to me that it's another retcon, which I will say this one, we talked last week about the, ooh, that's a, that's an update that Vision just kind of, like, tucked, - We'll talk about that, yeah. - Tucked, didn't kill Ultron despite, canonically, being the one in the movie who's like, "We gotta make sure we do that." Retconning the history of AI tech development inside the MCU, it's an update. I don't mind it for a couple reasons. One, I think the idea that Tony, who, you know, we have plenty of evidence early in the MCU about, like, hey, Claw? Yeah, I used to hang out with that guy at arms dealers conventions. Like, the number of people in different corporations or black market walks of life who Tony was interacting with, plausible. Mostly, I just never thought that the way Tony and Bruce talked about AI as a breakthrough in Age of Ultron made any sense. Frankly, in part because of Jarvis' existence at that point, it was always, like, really bizarre every time I watched. I'm like, this does not make sense. - Right. - So, I have more room in my heart for it because of that, but it is a pretty big update, it is. - But wild to say, the name of the company that I'm gonna, is at the center of this murder mystery and all these other things. - Yeah. - Is the name of the company that I guess creates the big virus that is at the center of 12 Monkeys. So he's like, he took his Skynet and he just like brought it, poured it into the show. That's insane to me that Marvel's just like, sure, let's make it somewhat of an interconnected universe. Like, why not? I mean, sort of nominally only, but like, that's wild to me. Katerina, which is President Rosalind's actual name, the character name, is the name of the head scientist in, not the same last name, but it's the first name of the head scientist in 12 Monkeys. You know, it's just like, again and again and again, I'm just sort of like, wow, okay, man. You do you. A listener who has identified themselves as Big Gay Travis wrote in to say, the behavior discussed in the last pod about the butcher birds, about them stabbing their prance, spikes and thorns and other fun things had many purposes, but one of the purposes that behavior fulfills is attracting mates. That's how I go about it too. Now, this week we have learned that the butcher bird killer is in fact Jocasta or quote, the bride of Ultron in the comics. And all of her kills have been bringing her closer to quote, finding her mate. Not sure if the show will go fully there, with four episodes, but my bird nerd brain was tickled by that. So the idea that the butcher bird is a killer and uses that as a way to like lure and attract a mate. And I mean, Ultron's interest is clear as day. She's an artiste and a murderer. And he's like, that's pretty hot. Both those things combined. She made her art part of her murder. I agree. But yeah, that's a fun ornithology fact. So I thought I would share that. Who knew? Not me. And I do love birds, as you know. Learned a new thing here. Great. Tell me about your love of birds. Like watching birds in your yard is what I know about your bird experience. Yeah, well, and you know that once I saw a pigeon on the streets of Chicago and said, nature. I love to watch a hummingbird and then various other birds. Basically an ornithologist. Just like come flutter by. What's it like seeing you an ornithologist? Those are my questions. I just love it. Seeing a hummingbird is one of the great thrills. It makes me so happy. It is one of the few, one of the few things in the world that can actually, no matter how bad of a mood I'm in, I see a hummingbird and I'm like, life is amazing. The world is incredible. And you're like the butterfly meme? Okay. Exactly. Our listener Lacey wrote in with something I disagree with, but I think in a spirit of friendly disagreement, let's have a conversation. Okay. Lacey titled her email lone bot and cub and says, I think we have another lone wolf and cub story on our hands. He's not 100% daddy, but he's something. The kid has great and terrible powers he can't control. Daddy is morally iffy with a terrible past. Also a battle black hat cowboy grandpa dressed like Carl. Carl Marx is haunting them from an intangible digital realm. Is that part of the trope? Is Ultron their Werner Herzog? Looking forward to this vision accepting his role as dad and that'll be his foundation for connecting to people slash humanity at last. Not looking forward to probably all the other inner AI characters going out one by one like victims in an Agatha Christie story. So I think Lacey has her answer inside of the end there because I just don't think this can qualify as a lone wolf and cub story when like the entire vision family, even if they are not tampered, tangibly in the real world space are along for the ride. The fact that like Ultron and Edith are popping into the motel to be like, hey, talk to him about boxing. Sit down here on this part of the bed. Sit right here. Have a conversation. Edith's showing up with her manly pack. Yeah, facts are so good. Really good. You know, Ultron being like, hey, part of being a dad is saying no. You know, like all that sort of stuff. Like this is a Fast and Furious family sort of story. Not a lone wolf and cub. Let's fire up the grill and sit down for burgers for sure. That and then also, of course, as we talked about a lot last week. Plus Lisa's here. That's right. Lisa is here. Lisa's back. Lisa is back. I'm excited to talk about the coat of arms gala get up for the comic connections reasons, but also I have some questions for you about whether you think you'd be able to identify a fake pair of hands out in the wild. There's the question. I just asked it. Well, if you're looking at them directly, yes. But if I'm chit-chatting in form aware outside of a gala with some other important people and I'm just sort of like, yes, yes, yes. Rutabaga, Rutabaga, smooch, smooch, smooch, smooch. And someone is like, I mean, what I'm more apt to be alerted to, not the fake hands, but just like the lone person not in our group, just like sidling up in our periphery the entire time we're talking. I do have notes for Lisa. Lisa got the job done and I love that for her, but like. Also, apparently digital scan tickets did not connect to the actual like identity of the invites. I've got some notes for President Laura Roslin on the security team around her, but in a number of ways they failed here. A, why have fancy digital tickets in the first place? Exactly. B, why not have your entire AI army just like craft you a couple, 3D print you a couple of digital tickets? It seems like a miss given the things that these people work on. I am a fidgeter. The code of arms concept. Yes, yeah. I think I would notice somebody who's, that unnatural stillness to me feels so conspicuous because I, as you know, can't sit still. I think it would work really well on a subway. Like, you know, we're all packed in like sardines. Yeah. I think that would work really well. But then there's a Joel, and everyone else reaches and code of arms just sits still and you're like, normal. She's got excellent core. You'd have to have excellent core strength. You would. Drop the ab routine, Lisa. Just like plant. Oh my God. Engage the core. Make it work. That's another reason that I'm like, no, because I have no core strength. You're solving all of this. Listen, so in addition to the Lisa factor, the other Mind Palace AI, et cetera, as we talked about last week, Agatha, Agatha ended with Billy declaring that he was on the hunt for Tommy. As you already said at the top of the pod today, we don't know if and when Billy will appear. It's our assumption based on how Agatha ended that he will at some point. But we should mention there was like a rando in one of the Tommy scenes early on that like a young man with dark curly hair that a bunch of viewers were like, is that Tommy? And Terry Metellus has come out and said, that was not Billy. That was not Billy. So don't worry about it. Yes. But like that's also obviously part of the story. The idea that Billy is out there and in theory we assume they will be reunited at some point, but also the Wanda of it all. There is more than just the lone wolf and cub relationship between the two of them. But that is a, I think the lone wolf cub element is the most, one of the most potent little bit of accelerants. It's like a catalyst because the AI family. Reluctant guardian. I think that that element. It's supercharging the emotional evolution. Sure. For vision. Yeah. And even though Tommy is the one who says, oh, like you're, you're fab four. You don't want to do the Scottish accent. I don't think I'm capable of it. What if I got you some iron brew? Would that help? Let's find out. Okay. Let's find out. Oh, a family. Like Tommy himself is crediting this other family there. But I do want to say before. Tommy's like, I'm a scholar of pop culture. I've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer. You've got your family. And that would set you apart from all the other chosen ones. Oh man. What I really am taking from Lacey's email is that last week when I was like, we're all thinking about Grogu and you said, are we? Lacey gets it. I think Lacey started thinking about Grogu after you said that. I think you incepted her like malware. Okay. Our listener McKinley wrote in, talking about the Star Trek comp. McKinley wanted to make a comp to another classic sort of 1960s. Yeah. Star based property, which is lost in space. Which is based on Robinson Crusoe. This family, Robinson, et cetera, et cetera. No relation, but deep in my heart, the Robinsons matter to me. No relation. Thanks for clarifying. You're welcome. Swiss family or lost in space or otherwise, the Robinsons are important to me. And most importantly, in Lost in Space, there is a character, Dr. Smith, who is an incredible schemey schemer and constantly trying to like find wedges inside of the family and sort of make plots. In the most recent. In the most recent Netflix version of this. Plots and schemes. Plots and schemes. Schemes and plots. The most recent Netflix version of this, Parker Posey played Dr. Smith. And that was like extraordinary stuff. Really, really good. But Dr. Smith is just like a juicy, great character. And I do think the Ultron Dr. Smith comp is a pretty good one. If the entire family inside of Vision can be the Robinsons. Danger, Tommy Shepard. Danger Will Robinson is what they say in Lost in Space, as you probably know. Okay. Backpack on jets is how this person identified themselves in email. To disagree with your retcon issue about Ultron. Observation. Not an issue. Observation. Observation is the word. Okay. This listener and a couple of other people, I've seen this going around, this idea that like Ultron was always inside of Vision because from his inception. Sure. When Dr. Helen Cho made it. Oh, sure. That like Jarvis and Ultron were always. I heard everything you said. Yeah. And I just think that like, I really like the way this email ended, which is like, I think should they have chosen to, the writers of Vision Quest could have further delineated Ultron and Jarvis as being original to the programming mind palace. And then Friday, Edith, Dummy, and you as being the gracious guest to White Vision's lovely processors. So that's like one take that people have had. I will say that when I've heard Terry try to explain this, he has another idea, which is just about Ultron being in like cold storage. Yeah, that's my reply to this is I think that that email and frankly, anyone who's watched the MCU in its entirety, I think could have received a premiere of this show where Vision just said, I was definitionally the culmination of all of these different technologies. He's embedded in my code the way that like Edith and. Yeah, and I've surfaced and separated out and like restored basically those component parts. That's just frankly not what the show. told us inside of the premiere when Ultron said, "Hey, I didn't ask to be backed up and copy pasted out of Sokovia. Like, it's just not what they're, they're literally telling us it's a different thing. Yeah. So I just, I just, I agree that there is a reading of the MCU that supports that, but that's not what they're doing in the show. What this person and the other people who are clinging to this theory are doing is exactly what you said, which is like, hey, maybe the show I wish I could have gotten is one where this is the explanation for Ultron. Yes. I think in general, the fact though, that Ultron is a part of Vision is undeniable and important as not only we go through the peep-pop, pop-pop, et cetera, this idea of grandpa and the father, tree, son, you know, obviously there's a rich textual moment in this episode at the gala when we get the, the, I keep wanting, I, it's going to be hard not to say President Lara Roslin the entire time. Katerina Wells. You can say Roslin. I just might. I frankly just might. You know, any excuse to talk about Battlestar, what a delight. Obviously, wonderful, wonderful choice. Is this my, is this my moment to talk about sneakers? Because Mary McDonnell is also incredible in sneakers. Actually, this is my favorite Mary McDonnell performance, so, you know. Is, is President Lara Roslin second? Sure. That's a, that's a very muted shirt. She doesn't mean the same thing to me as she means to you. I know. I mean, Adama and Roslin, they're just, they're, they're, they're the OTP. That is what I do. They're the OTP. But yeah, I mean, they're a part of each other. They are a part of each other. And that's part of what the story is interested in identifying and interrogating. So I don't think there's any need for us to talk ourselves out of that. Um, uh, uh, in, inextricable read of the connection between the characters. It's more, it's not that. It's just that the show. Some of the lines are there. Needlessly, I think, kind of said another thing that makes it odd that Vision would have done that when it is in direct conflict with another thing that he said inside of the MCU. Franchises and certainly ones that cover this much time and this many properties do stuff like that all the time. I managed in the span of like two episodes of Obi-Wan, of the Obi-Wan. Kenobi show to talk myself into the Obi-Wan little last stuff. Despite that, I would say a retcon of new hope is a more meaningful choice than retconning one exchange from age of Voltron. Like, it's still don't think they should have done it. I still think they should not have done that. Okay. Remember what he looked like in that show, though? Just unbelievable. Obi-Wan in his absolute best. How often do we think about the Obi-Wan show? What a, what a like, what a, that feels like a long time ago. What a whiff to have Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan and have a show that feels as inconsequential as that. Speaking of the McGregor family. Yeah. Fourth win casting. You want to talk about it? Esther McGregor. I mean, it's just, this is a monumental moment that we have gotten Violet and Zayden officially cast. There's been, you know, speculation on the internet for what? Two years at this point. So that's it. That's the extent of my commentary. We've been texting. We have. Yeah. You have some thoughts. Maybe we'll share them more in depth later. Oh, yeah. Stay tuned for our V-Day quickie in February. It's October 22nd. Will you have Red Threshing Day? By then? We have a busy few months ahead. Yeah, we do. I think I will definitely have Red Threshing Day by then. Will I have caught up completely on ACOTAR by then? I think it's a feeling unlikely, but I'm going to try. I'm going to try. Should we go now to our deep dive? Let's do it. Vision is bleeding out and no one can help him except for Tony Stark, who is dead, and Dr. Banner, who yada, yada, yada, I don't know what time this takes place in relative time to Spider-Man. Nobody thinks to call Shuri. Shuri, who, when she looked at Vision, was like, I am on this and you guys fucked this up. Why didn't you come to me sooner? She's like, why didn't you do this? And they're like, oh, we're too dumb. Did we learn no lessons? Shuri's out there. Yeah. I did like that we got the opening, the paint, you know, the drops of blood-like paint drops from Ultron into, the oozing, like, the fluorescent kind of, yeah, white, blue. Just in case you didn't already know this, when you see viscous goop in film and television, it's almost always KY Jelly. Almost always. No free ads. It's almost always some sort of lube. There you go. But it's KY Jelly. Oh, my God. All right. Tommy knows about Tony creating Ultron. What Tommy knows and when he knew it, you know, like, there's just a lot of information. Like, what did everyone know about what the Avengers were up to? What did everyone know about what Tony Stark was up to? They knew that Tony Stark created Ultron and then Ultron is responsible for Sokovia, but Tony is just like, fine, ain't that the way with billionaires, you know? Indeed. There's only one actual question here. No consequences. Has Tommy canonically established history of the Avengers scholar? Canonically established. Passionate reader. Hmm. Read the only book on this that actually matters. Hmm. Your New York Times bestselling MCU book. That's the question. Tommy loved the MCU, the reign of Marvel Studios. Thanks so much for asking. He really liked the paperback most of all. Did Tommy show up at any of the book events? If he did, he was so speedy. Zipped to the front of the line? Yeah, so speedy I didn't see him, you know? Interesting. Crucially inside of this episode, now I know what the technical answer. The technical answer is the snap was the act of snapping and the. Blip is the time that happens afterwards. But I am so out on blip as a term and I always have been. Yeah, sure. And I just call, why not just call it the snap? You can just call the whole thing the snap. The snap happened and then everything that happened afterwards, also the snap. Yeah. The snap rules. It's a great term. Blip is stupid. No. So, fuck that shirt. Fuck any use of blip. Man. I'm also a blip denier like the person who owns that car, except for different reasons. They're a conspiracy theorist and I just think it's bad. It's a bad term. Good t-shirt as well, you know? Burn the shirt. The blip shirt. Here's my journey with this. Initially, I could not have agreed with you more. They wore you down. I thought. Sad to hear. This will be not the first and probably not the last time today that I mention Grogu. Very reminiscent to me. When we first heard Grogu's name, I, like legions of others, like, absolutely not. Yeah. And now he's Grogu to me. But what did the blip have in terms of babbles and coos and gurgles to get you on its side? There's one thing and one thing only. One thing and one thing only. For a long time, I was resistant. I kept saying the snap. Stubbornly, I kept saying the snap. Sometimes I still do. Say it strong. It's Happy Hogan saying blip beard. Snap beard. Grew it in the blip. Blip beard. It's something about the way that he says blip beard. Stupid. You got me. Terrible. Weak. Okay. You're going to burn all that merch. But, you know, you don't, I guess you can afford to burn it. You don't have room for any new merch because you've got all your Thanos was right mugs. So. You only need one. Makes sense. You really only need one Thanos is right mug. No. What if you chip it when you're loading the dishwasher or something? You don't want a backup? No, you, if you chip a mug, it becomes part of the mug's character. It means you've used it and you love it. Depends on where the chip is. What if it's on the exact, like the lip bed where you take your sips from? You can take your sip from any part of the circumference of a mug. You can't. Yeah, you can't. You can't. They want you to think you can. Absolutely you can. It's a full circle. Your lips belong anywhere. Not right above the handle, but anywhere else. But then where your hand is because of the handle, it just, there's only, there are only so many things that make sense with a mug. Not true. All right. Vision of Mind Palace is glitching out like Wanda's magic did in the Hex, which I think looks really cool. I love the production design on the broken down house. But what's also true is that like even before it was broken down and it looks like so cool with like the slanted shelves and all the stuff like that. They had a bunch of stuff that didn't make sense. They put out a. A little featurette on the production design of the houses last week where they talked about how they wanted to make it look like AI slop. So you have like banisters that are all like, fuck, you know, like warped. Like a lot of the stuff is meant to look like AI tried to give you a Magritte painting. Sure, yeah, of course. And like effed it up. And AI tried to give you a potted plant, but oops, it's on the wall. You know, like all of that stuff. There's a lot of programming to our story about how all of these synthesides can find the capacity for human capacity. There's a connection inside of that. No, possibly, but also caution. This is a wild cautionary tale. It's like, oh, we imbued if we imbue AI with our own humanity. Oh, actually, maybe that's worse. These episodes in particular had actual dialogue about this idea of playing God. That was one of the reasons that having President Laura Roslin here and making the Battlestar tie so over was was was really smart and fun. And Terry Metallus is a huge Battlestar Galactica fan. So he's like, that's that's not coincidental. Yeah, yes, for sure. Is this all we're going to see of her? Are we going to get like some flashbacks? Because I really don't. I could be wrong. This is when I get like sort of who who is a casting spoiler and who is not wrong all the time. Unlike Prestige, Rob and I will be like, surely that person. You're like, this is a person I've been obsessed with the rest of the world. It's like, I don't know. This person is in speakers and that matters. And so she can't show up for one episode when she showed up in like that interview footage. I was like, holy shit, Mary McDonald's in the show. Like, that's great. She's going to be a huge character. Then she gets vaporized by episode four. And I was like, that can't that can't be it. I mean, at least if they had been airing them every week, we would have gotten to enjoy her for two weeks. I know. I hope that this is not. I assume. I mean, look, so much of the show for for the vision of it all, but also the tummy of it all. And as we've talked about the Ultron of it all. And now in this episode, we get like Edith learning her human avatar was Edith Marks. And what does that mean? The past is. Ultron can say all he wants about. It's not the past that makes you want to keep going. It's the future. The past is central to this story. I'll say this. If we're getting a fucking Paladin flashback, I demand some. Katerina Wells. As well. Let's hear your childhood trauma. Yeah. We invite you to share with us. Right. Tell us about your daddy issues. Exactly. Exactly. Vision's constantly talking to no one. I've talked about before about how much this is a trope that I enjoy. Slings and Arrows, the Canadian show, being one of my favorite examples. But I was thinking a lot about Paul Bettany being cast in this and thinking about A Beautiful Mind. Of course. No spoilers for that, I guess, if you've never seen A Beautiful Mind. But it's funny casting if you have. What do you like more on the trope front? Talking to no one or a description of carvings or etchings, bird-like, wing-like imagery, and then you look at it and you're like, that looks like an angel. It makes us think of the Bible. And then later in that stretch of story, we get a Bible pulled off the shelf and an exorcism. Bible stuff go, also present here. Talking to no one, present here. Fun. Fun. Yeah, I'm curious how much—that's so interesting. I had not—those did not look like angel wings to me. But I'm often thinking about— I'm often thinking about birds and very rarely thinking about angels, unless they're vampires. The playing God talk, the idea of the fallen angel, the devil, the angel and devil on the shoulder. And it's funny, too, because actually when I watched it the first time, even though literally it's like Programmer's Bible that Edith pulls off the shelf, to me it just felt like a spell. I was like, oh, they're doing a Wanda-Agatha witchcraft connection, but it is clearly meant to be like a religious ceremony. Well, that bit did not work for me at all until Aldron comes in with the power. The power of Christ compels you, the power of Coke compels you, which was hilarious. Hysterical. Very good. Edith, Ultron. Spinoff. Spinoff? Series of companion webisodes? Yeah. With Madison and Wong? I mean, they're— What about a series— They are always welcome. The Professor's always welcome and Madison and Wong are always welcome. A series of spinoff webisodes that are just called Dynamic Duos, and it's just sort of like our favorite pairings inside of the MCU. This is taking me back to— Let's see if I'm capable of remembering why we did this. Oh, the Punisher. Yeah. And like basically all of our bitches are connected to that. It's like, oh, we have a type. Oh, I mean— World by Night mentioned in this episode. World by Night mentioned Punisher. It exists. Daredevil. Speaking of, I can't believe we've briefly mentioned fourth-wing casting. Joanna. Mallory. The internet is demanding to know if you have seen the Quinn campaign. I'm curious why you would bring like our private text messages. A bunch of listeners— We talk about Quinn all the time. A bunch of listeners tagged me in the latest Quinn ads. Yeah, so you're aware. As you know, I'm aware. You're aware. Interesting. Wilson Bethel, Bullseye himself, is doing— has done a Quinn story. Set in a diner. Quinn, for if you're just joining us, and some people are, Quinn is— Audio erotica. Audio erotica. And they've been like drafting some of the like most coveted internet boyfriend type people to narrate these. I would say specifically from shows that we cover. There's a lot of the genre properties. As you know, we're huge to summer. I turn pretty people. I haven't seen it. I really feel like I missed out. But yeah, Wilson Bethel has voiced something for them. Mallory has been sending me, hopefully, some of the updated things. I feel like it's too powerful to exist. And I don't like engaging with it because it's too much. It's too perfect. It's too much. Well, only one way to find out. I'll be signing up at long last. Mallory's like, should I be with you when you're listening to this? Yeah, I did. I said no. It just feels like an important part of our shared experience. Does Quinn— We didn't even see Wicker together. We couldn't even sit next to each other for Wicker. I know, that's true. God, and that was a powerful experience. Does Quinn do— Like, basically, screeners, you know? Oh. Something we should look into and consider. Throwing it out there. We've got a lot of free time coming up, so. Yeah. So much time on our hands. Should we formally cover the Wilson Bethel— What's it called? Quinn— Let's see. It's something at the diner, right? Dead at the diner. Dead end diner? Dead meat diner? Dead meat is certainly not in the name of a Quinn story. Let's see. Dead end diner. Dead end diner. I'll be checking it out. I've said that now about the Matt Smith one. You have yet to do it. What will push you over the edge? Ewan McGregor. Oh, my God. I mean, that's like a take a day at PTO and like— Harrison Ford. I mean— Harrison Ford in an Amish-themed sort of story. With a lot of smoldering yearning. Yeah, tapping on the roof of the car. That would be great. I probably would. You'd never see me again after that. And I certainly would not want to be with you while you were listening to it. I like to think we're very close. Vision does the dad lecturing driving stuff. We already mentioned the Wanda Maximoff to sort of like distance himself. Vision, Tommy, and Ultron give us more previously on recaps, and I really hope that's the end of it. We got like another WandaVision recap. What happened to Wanda at the end of Multiverse of Madness moment from that trio. That being said, all of that's worth it. All of that. All of that that didn't quite work for me is worth it for James Spader saying, you want to watch a porno. It has this wonderful stuff. You want to watch a porno? I mean, in essence, I just asked you that. Do you want to listen to Quinn? Wilson Bethel's Quinn with me? Ultron, come on the pod. You'll be right at home. Gotta say, a lot of very, very zippy, funny lines from Ultron, but from the whole gang in this episode. On the, this was quite rude front. Tommy asking if he should take Vision to the Apple store or a TV repair shop was not nice. I thought it was funny. Not nice. This friend that I was talking to about, about Vision Quest, he was like, I see a lot of overlap between him and Ultron, just in terms of their like, wow, acerbic nature. Would you say that to his face? I did. Yeah. Was he like weirdly flattered? No, he was not weirdly. He was like, what a huge compliment. Honestly, he was like, I too wish I could say mean things. Whenever I wanted to and get away with it. And I said, if you give it 10 years, you can just like blame it on senility. Yeah. And then he sent me back. You didn't say it, try podcasting. He sent me back a meme of Ultron saying that basically like that I'm the Ultron in that, in that scenario. But anyway, like, I do feel like we should all aspire to live long enough to be old enough that we can say whatever we want and, and no one can stop us. You have a microphone and a public platform. Go for it. You cannot say whatever you want into a microphone. And you know that better than anyone else, Smiley Rubin. You know how much of your. Your slurs we have to edit out of this podcast. Stop! That's not true! Ultron joins Vision at, in the movie, in the movie theater inside of the Mind Palace as, as we're sort of getting to the, the climax of all of this. To give him a glimpse of, to, to show him the Family Ties episode of, of WandaVision. Yeah. Um. What'd you think of this? Who is the boss? Who is the boss? Family Ties mentioned. That's where my parents got the name Mallory. Fun fact that I've shared 900 times previously. Um. It. I. Every. Anytime we're in the little movie theater, I kind of like it. The screening room. I just always kind of like it. It's fun. It makes sense. It's like an appropriate use of that space. It makes sense that the characters would be behaving this way. I thought that the, um. You know, what Ultron, because so many of the lines are just, uh, cutting and witty. Those moments, whether it's like you were talking about earlier, what he says about, um, fatherhood or something here. Like, why do you, what makes you want to go on? I just am really interested in parsing how much we agree or disagree with what he says. I find that to be one of the really compelling things about the character. Like, there is always a little bit of a current. This is, you know, it's just another manifestation, ultimately, of the angel-devil thing that you're citing. Like, you feel yourself lured in by what he is presenting. But then I almost always work to a place of disagreement with him. It's kind of interesting. Like, I think the past-future framing here, there was something about it that made real sense to me and I thought was a compelling pitch. You carry forward because you want to know what awaits. But you also do it, and certainly vision, in this story that is about, uh, uh, soaking up all of these memories. That he didn't actually experience directly in this particular manifestation. The past is kind of the point. Like, the past is his portal to the future, right? I think Ultron's right in that moment. And I think he's also right when he says you get to be the next version of what you once were to eat it. Like, I, I, I hear him manipulating them all the time. All the time. Yeah. But he didn't manipulate them with the truth. That's what, that's what I'm saying. That's what's interesting. The most convincing lie. Yeah. Wrapped inside of a truth. So you feel yourself kind of on guard. Constantly with his counsel. I thought the thing he said about parents was, I had more of an issue with, actually. But I think the fact that. Saying no? That he said the ones, not, not that it's important to say no, but that they say no more than they say yes. Because, again, that's an interesting. I think it depends how old the kid is. But I think. But it's an interesting lens into Ultron's psychology and what his motivation is. There's nothing altruistic. It doesn't mean he's not capable of helping the person on the other end of the conversation. But his motivation is inherently selfish. So he is a character defined by his. desire to control and his lack of faith in anybody else's ability to do something well so of course he looks at it from the position of I guess say no not having just spent the last couple days with an 18 month old I just feel like no was like 85 percent of gently no no no no just keep them from hurting themselves you know I mean of course protect your kids yeah yeah but like why is he actually saying all this because he wants to be the one to make the decision for everyone 100 fascinating character we get this stranger things-esque pool party moment and we got this great email from our listener Aaron who said if I had a nickel for every time one of Wanda's Maximoff's sons had to perform an emergency sous vide to kick start some water into a desperate life-saving treatment at the end of the third episode of a Disney plus show that introduces their character into the MCU I only have two nickels but it's still weird it happened twice I personally preferred Billy slash William slash teen using a literal sous vide machine to bring the sink cauldron to a boil to whip up the wine you Sous vide machine to jumpstart vision systems maybe that's just where I fall on the fantasy fantasy sci-fi spectrum so hysterical observation um I I liked to me like the the sous vide we're in the kitchen we have to use the sink as a cauldron in the third episode of Agatha while the idea of that worked in that space because it was about the coven and everybody playing a role like everybody going to find their ingredient right um and so it made sense it was and and was a good fit there but here it feels very appropriate because so much of the story is about vision uh confronting the past so that he can move into the future and so of course him taking Tommy on some sort of parallel journey Tommy having to face the water face the pool tell vision what happened to him vision actually listening to that actually I have a question that makes me want to ask you I want to ask you a question about the simulation thing before I forget but it felt right that they had to go back into the pool in order to it felt on the nose right yeah it felt like obvious to me but I mean I think but it looks cool yeah I think that's how like a lot of the show has been so far right like we are watching literal footage of the past or the character who is trying to find a connection to uh the idea this is seemingly impossible to reconcile idea of his parents um says he likes sitcoms and realize phase through phase yeah like I think I wouldn't say that like subtlety has been the show's strength no but I think more complex and we've already talked about some of the complexity like when Ultron is saying something and we both maybe agree but also realize that he's manipulating or when like President Laura Roslin is up there and talking about AI and we're like yeah yeah there are ways in which AI can be used for like positive sort of health care reasons which she is sort of intimating but also a suit of armor around the world which is what you know they ultimately like sold their tech to Tony Stark and that's what Tony Stark decided to do with it like those complicated ideas are on a different level than the boy gets traumatized in pool so he needs to get back in the pool to heal his father I just feel like I just feel like the show is like sometimes operating up here and then sometimes operating down here I will say though I think that even the Ultron stuff while it is working better for us is a little bit more maybe because of the performance than the storytelling like a number of the exchanges between Ultron and Vision have literally involved the character saying this is do you just want to kill everyone oh maybe and it's so hysterical to watch Vader say huh that I love it but it is literally just the character saying wait do you just want to kill everyone which is again like pretty this is another good example on the surface but it's but but those are just like tossed off yeah like jokes inside of the Interpol scene versus like this is the culminating event of the episode yes that's a really that distinction performance I think yeah dovetails really nicely into the next thing I want to talk about which is like there's a hard reboot and there's also the way in which Jarvis's uh code sort of seeped into the various AI but no matter what the cause they're all behaving a little bit differently maybe a bit more human if you prefer a bit more emotional if you prefer and whether or not that's the infusion of Jarvis inside of them or a result somehow of the hard reboot but I don't think so because it predates the reboot especially like what Friday goes through here so Friday has this big like sort of no more sacrifice uh losing Tony Stark PTSD moment Edith has her sort of introspective I'm gonna get all these album covers out and go through the record that the Stark Industries records which is so fun um and then Dummy and You are are verbal now and like contributing to with Keats or Danny Boy or or like onstage patters so they're all Keats was great different uh than they were before and some of it really landed for me and some of it didn't so the Friday stuff I don't know fell really flat for me and the Edith stuff really really worked for me and I don't know if that's just performance or what's going on there but like I really wanted the Friday stuff especially it's connected to one of the most important pop cultural moments that that has ever existed and I it just didn't quite connect with the with me the way that I think it wanted to no I agree I thought that the it's it's very emblematic of um a distinction between I think the nobility of the show's intention with a certain uh choice being not only clear but I think probably right and that's not necessarily the same as it working yeah like I I think that Friday uh tears pooling in Friday's eyes and Friday saying like I was there when Tony died I ran over a quintillion strategic calculations like that and I don't know like it wasn't enough and the idea that it's not just vision it can't just be vision I mean it could be there could be something about that distinction ultimately but the idea that they are on not only this found family shared journey of unlocking emotional depth for each other but that this group of AI that all have this history not only like this shared space in the mind palace but this connection to Tony this connection to our experience as viewers the history we bring to it with the MCU that they're not just vision it's not just vision it's not just vision it's not just they are not just there to perform a function like when we have heard these allusions to the time the passage of time multiple years that they've spent together teaching vision about human nature if they're not on their own journey with that too then it just lacks some of the depth it lacks some of the ability that a parallel structure can have to heighten some sort of message for us and of course for vision but I I just was like I'm not feeling it I'm just not feeling it in that moment it's just the truth maybe this is just like the the subtlety versus not or like this is a Disney plus show that needs to hit to like you know the the kids the cheap sheets we need to like cheap seats we need to like say the thing yeah but when she says no more sacrifices yeah she says that first no more sacrifices she says about Jarvis she's also saying it about Tony and I'm like I get it she's talking about Tony that's really cool yeah and then she just like that was enough and then she just like says it for a while you know and I was just sort of like yes um yeah the Edith stuff did really work for me uh what she finds out uh or what we find out in this sort of record search of of these physical inspos is that Friday is based on uh someone called Alison Hogan which everyone you know seems to agree they think is Happy Hogan's mom potentially great so it's the idea that like uh not just Howard's uh Girl Friday but also someone who helped raise Tony's this idea that Tony was like raised with Happy as sort of like siblings of a kind is is beautiful to think about and also very beautiful very touching love it and also just classic Tony to be like my lifelong um dearest friend my my my ballad yeah classic happy you'll carry your bags off Peter ballad yeah unbelievable um I thought the Edith the Edith sequence was really good Edith discovering Edith Marks what Ultron was able to do in that scene you know the the comforting words the tenderness the sweetness um the advice you know the who you are advice but also just like to go from in the span of one minute to the next minute of one conversation that did he do you think she laughed in the face of death because that's been this through line right um the idea that so much of this is about what learning something in the past can open up for you and that for Edith we get to see very quickly that it has the opposite effect right that confronting something why would he like the way that she says why would he why would Stark pass that on to me I'm supposed to be the fun one I just thought that was really powerful you know how much time are we going to spend with Edith thinking about this moving forward I'm not really sure I don't know that there's like a ton of room for that but I think very quickly that heightened our ability to feel like they're all on their own journey of reconciling with who they were based on does that matter does it need to matter well and who can you be you know evolution we get you know the the evolution of man sort of image like and and the way in which can you change your programming can you change your code um you know can you break free of what you were told you had to be what you were invented to be um AI constantly evolving and improving and all of that obviously scary um it you know is true but the way in which that aligns with this human desire to to to reinvent to evolve yeah to change um anything you want to say about grief is the inevitable tragic demise of love which Ultron says you know we're just we continue to play with a lot of playing with the heads yeah we know what our Spotify wrapped it's going to be for this season of TV for sure. All right. All the best paladins have daddy issues. I want, well, let me, let me quickly ask you if, uh, the, the fact that we run all those simulations with Vision and Tommy, did that, did that in any way put you on, not in a bad way, but did that put you on guard in any way for like whether we will know for sure if we are watching a real thing or a simulation moving forward in the show? I mean, there's a couple of things like that for sure. We just need to be ready because they've given this to us. Yeah. As a possibility. Yeah. And I think also the sort of like, this is the physical inspiration for who we are, uh, you know, and, and for Edith and for Friday and we already knew that for Jarvis. Yeah. And then we get it for, for Joe in this episode. Yes. For Joe. Yeah. No, she is. She is. Dr. Joe. Um, but like, you know, Ultron says he's one of one. Is that true? He has the moment at the end of the episode. When, when she says peace in our time and he has this real moment of like. Peace in our time. Way. There are like three distinct moments in these episodes where Ultron, the show goes out of its way to have Ultron say a version of, or be confronted with a question about like Edith is like, why'd you pick that avatar? So the show is, the show wants us to be thinking. Exactly. It's because of the other characters, but also because Ultron himself is engaging with it. Those are like the baguette size breadcrumbs that are being dropped here. Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. Yeah. What do you want to say about any of this? Um, I agree with you that this was pretty clunky and didn't really work. I mean, I think that giving us, again, the, the desire to give us, uh, insight into and thus potentially empathy for, um, our quote unquote villain makes sense to me as a pursuit inside of the show. I think. Also, certainly the idea of like a commonality with our hero set, right? Um, you know, the question of what makes a family, a family, right? The fact that his actual father was clearly a piece of shit was cruel to him, you know, told him that he was weak, that the toy his mom gave him made him weak, like all horrible. We see that very quickly. And then that guy is shot in the head in front of him. And, you know, we get to see the, the paladin crest. Well, okay. That guy, prior paladin didn't have an heir of his own. So. So he picked this paladin. That's a lone wolf in a cub story, it looks like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, you know, the idea that it's not just your literal DNA or bloodline. It could be your adoptive father who turns you into a killing machine from a young age. Your oath. Your code. It's gotta come from somewhere, folks. It's gotta come from somewhere. So I, I understand, you know, why that's all here and certainly what it might lead to in the future. It was pretty clunky. Yeah. It was pretty clunky, the writing. I think the, even just the kind of stylistic presentation of it. While it makes sense because we're, you know, fingers in the mind. It just feels like blaring sirens were telling you his backstory so that you have some tenderness in your heart. Yeah. I did enjoy him being like all battered and bruised and talking to his handler inside of his van and just sort of like going through all of that. I thought that was fun. I find his performance really, really fun so far. Yeah. I agree with what you're saying more broadly about just kind of the intent maybe of a figure like this in an MCU show. And how interesting that is at this point. When like the kid is walking his dog and sees the dog grooming thing on the truck. It's funny. It's funny. That stuff's fun. It is great. Yeah. Also the fact that he has names for his drones. Yes. Bing, bang, boom. Bing, bang, boom. Good stuff. Those look to me, I don't know, not a drone expert. Let me say that. Add it to the list. We're not doctors. She is an ornithologist. We're not scientists. But she's not a drone expert. Those to me looked like Stark, Edith drones that he took and painted black. A hundred percent. A. Yeah. B. I saw Far From Home. B. I mean, because those drones were just like everywhere all over London. So like, you know, anyone could go pick up three drones and paint them black if they want to. But does that mean Edith would have access to those drones? Fun to think about. Just asking questions. Fun to think about. Haunted house. We had this cool invasion after the hard reboot of Jocasta being like vision. And then everything turns red. The red light in the trailer made us wonder if this was Wanda, like a, you know, we see vision floating and there was like a figure sitting in front of the television. Turns out it's Edith. But we were like, is this, is this Wanda in the trailer or a different witch in the trailer? The red light is associated with Joe and with Ultron, the red eyes, all of that sort of stuff. But the red, it's a little confusing because this is so chaos magic coded. And I don't think chaos magic has anything to do with this. But like, it is, it is a visual associated with, with Jocasta. Yeah. We get images inside of her mind. We get like a red button. We get some ants. I don't really know what any of that is. But we get. Inside of her mind. We get the exorcist joke. We get Terry Metalla's cameo. He's the person interviewing President Laura Roslin on the television. But I think the most interesting, and this is all very stylistically cool. The dummy in you being sort of like possessed. Ultron just like flicking him away, which I thought was like an interesting demonstration of his power. Versus like earlier when he let the, them like manhandle him. Yeah. He just sort of like flicks them away. But I think the conversation between vision and Joe. They always make another. Yeah. I thought that was really compelling. And feels true. You know, not just true to what we have seen in the story. But true to something about human nature and the human capacity. A lot of the story is about embracing the good. Right. The good that you can find in your heart and your soul if you connect to another person. And seek not to distance yourself from what it means to be human. But give yourself over to it. Yeah. But then the hubristic aspect. The hubristic aspects of humanity that lead to all of the mistakes. The mistakes that in every sci-fi story that people have been reading for decades and watching for decades that we are now living through. Would you say they were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think about whether or not they should? That's exactly what I would say. And that these characters in some cases, you know, were like, I did think about whether I shouldn't. I decided the answer was yes. And that that's pretty damning and bad too. So there's a film. There's a film coming out this year called Artificial, which is about Sam Altman. And it's I saw an advanced screening of it. It's one of the best movies ever seen, I think. But there's so much overlap here in terms of just sort of like the actual intellectual curiosity behind this. And then just sort of like the cat's out of the bag. Like you can't put it back in. You know, like what have we done? And like this is not our intention, but does intention matter when like the end result is the end result? You know? I mean, you know, on the battles. Obviously, this is like this is what Battlestar Galactica is about. But, you know, makes me think back to like our when we were doing our best of the year so far episodes and the speeches. And, you know, there's so many great speeches in Battlestar. But the Adama one that I picked was from the miniseries that kicked it off because it's like it centers on that question. Like, do we even all of this is about let's try to save ourselves. Like, what are we trying to save? You know, do we deserve it? And how important it is to ask that question so that you can hopefully get to a place where the answer. Is yes and meaningful and true. Right. I was getting on. You mentioned Stranger Things earlier with the pool. Like, I thought this looked so Creole Mansion and the upside down, you know, with the demo bats that that visual when we're outside of the mind palace in that space. So that was kind of fun to think about. And then, yeah, I don't know what the ants were about either. I mean, obviously, the birds, we have the butcher bird. Yeah. But. There's like these clusters. Yeah. The swarms. And in a very organic, like how do organic things swarm? Versus inorganic things. Any time now in a now, like recently over the last year, basically since Last of Us, any time I see a bunch of ants in a genre story like this, I. I have mine. I get nervous. Tough. Are the mushrooms out there? Yearning tendrils. All right. Who detected better Agatha or Team Vision? We already talked about a lot about this. I just want to once again reiterate how fucking good this sequence is. And I want to shout out a few things. Yes. Let's hit the highlights for sure. Maps with pins. It just is maps with pins. Maps with pins on the board behind them. The other boards also are hysterical. Dead People is the name of one of them. And Human Murder Board. Also Clues. Clues was so good. Human Murder Board was sort of like the overarching thing. And then it's masks with pins, clues, dead people. So funny. This was so funny. And having just made a conspiracy board for our KTR coverage, I was like. I was. Maps with pins. I really admired it. We did a lot of pinning. Visions suspender shirt. Oh my gosh. His button down shirt that had just suspenders on it. Which is very similar to like Edith's bow sweaters that she wears. That like the bow is sort of embroidered onto. Once again, I think this is very like AI sloppy. Oh, also. Cosplaying, yeah. Some people have noticed that Edith has Morse code on her fingernails. Oh, okay. For the letter V. What's the message? It's the letter V. I love that she calls him V. I think it's really fun and like really cute. Very sweet. So that does to me. That gives me. Vision is making all of the AI family. Again, it gives me the Doctor Strange. And your nails will be my name. I'm like everyone else in your life. I don't work for you. Like let them go on their own journey. Their nails don't have to be about you. Maybe it could be an E. All right. The fire hydrant captcha test. Incredible. This. I was really in stitches watching this. This was so funny. And this is Ultron at his best. Like he's so at it. adamant. He's so sure. Sure, it's five, right? But the fact that he's not just so sure that it's five and he's wrong, he's like, are you sure that it isn't actually just this bullshit? We're too smart? Yeah, this fucking dumb test made by dipshits. And when he's like, I would like to submit this many possibilities for the password, he's like, bullshit. That killed me. Shout out Sir Jabba the Mutt. Anything you want to say about Sir Jabba the Mutt? You know, big- His mom's an Astros fan. That's right. Big moment for baseball as well. So not to take any of the shine off of Sir Jabba the Mutt, which killed me. I had to pause because I was laughing so hard at that. It was just so good. Just a hysterical sequence. The little flip book for like the Instagram posts. It really, really was wonderful. I loved it. I was just having a blast. And then when we get to like, when Ultron is like, let's find out more about the body and like, don't you want to switch costumes? And Eve's like, I hate you, but thank you for the opportunity. On the, it hurts to hear, you know, worst person you know made a good point front. How- How deep did the bullet from Ultron in bed when he said, where most lonely middle-aged humans spend their time, social media. I was real like, it me with that. Like, oh my God. You just do scrolling Instagram at 2 a.m. when you should be sleeping. Ultron does know. He gets it. You live a vibrant lifestyle, Mallory. That's me, thriving. There are hummingbirds aplenty in your yard. There are some. I wish there were more. I wish there were more, but I don't want to get one of those feeders because I worry that if you don't keep it clean, you hurt them. So I'm scared. Someone also mentioned something about like hummingbird diabetes and I have some thoughts and concerns about it. I thought maybe you were going to say you really related to Ultron when he basically hit them with a phrasing when Edith says nobody likes a surprise rear entry. Incredible stuff. And he basically from the corner said, he didn't, he said, do you even hear yourself? But he should have said phrasing, honestly. He's ready to pod. He is. All right. It's a heist. Yeah, give Ultron a microphone. It's a heist. All right, we've already talked about a lot of this. Anything else you want to say about this heist moment? I found the moment, you know, the Bettany performance, wonderful vision. We're rooting for him. We're invested. Not only does he speak Italian, he has full mastery of all 34 regional dialects. What more do we need to know? Great stuff. That was delightful. I also thought that, you know, we've been on FitWatch. This Cabernet Velvet. Yes, I am handsomer than you in any measure. Oh, that was great. That was amazing. That was amazing. Oh, that was a really funny exchange with Lisa and Tommy Vision. But that was just an incredible tux. The, like, cranberry crushed velvet look. He's ready for the Oscars. Fantastic stuff. Loved that. Thought that was great. Rory rhymes with Brewery, who plays Tommy. He is Scottish and Italian. So I think they put that in there because he's just, like, can speak Italian. Look at that. Wonderful. When, anything you want to say that we haven't said about Rosalind's speech being, being, like, a transhumanist? I mean. Fascinating. She seems like she sucks. It's obviously all very worrying. Everything that this group was up to. So, okay, I actually. Rest in ashes. I will. Dude, she got, she got disintegrated. She got got. That was tough. I, here's the thing I did not, even though I really liked episode four overall, did not love about it. This is a little bit different, but connected to your, your broader point at the top about, like, how, how keen is the tension so far across the episodes. It just took too long for the characters in the show to get where we were with, like, obviously it's the fifth person in this group of five who's Butcher Bird. Well, I think, I think more crucially, two people died. They both worked for the same company and they're like, who could the third person possibly be? Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, guys, there's a pattern already existent. That whole time. It's like, I'm glad we got the Interpol sequence and all of it. But. But every step taken to connect these dots that were like. Does it? With the widest sharpie already connected. Maybe it's just there to make you feel smart. You're smarter than the AI. You're faster than the AI, Mallory. Malware. Malware. I don't know. I thought that was odd. That was odd. What did you, what did, there was like, so when we're getting, because we get when, when Joe, you know, to her friends. Dr. Joe. Joe to her friends, by the way. Yeah. It me. You evil robot. You'd be a great evil robot. You'd also be a great robot for good. Oh yeah. But I'd probably be evil, honestly. I think so. At least you would dabble. You would definitely dabble. I would have good intentions. It would not go well. What, in what episode of an eight episode season is your redemption arc? Seven and I die in eight. But then you're restored in season two. Oh, three. Okay. For two, we think, we think you're gone. We mourn. And then. And then in three. Thanks. Joe's like, I didn't ask to be caught being pasted out of Sokovia. But here we are. Dr. Joe. When Dr. Joe. I'm sorry. You were saying something about Dr. Joe. I'll say this. When Dr. Joe and Vision fight, I thought it looked great. I thought the two of them, like shout out Paul Bettany stunt double. I thought they looked incredible. Shout out Paul Bettany who got into the white makeup to snarl. Like if you touch him, I will end you sort of thing. He was so good in that whole final stretch. I agree. That fight was really fun. Getting to see speed and action. Very fun. The really palpable concern that Vision has for Tommy. Ultron's persistent. This is a bad idea. Don't bring the kids. Oh, you brought the kids. And then immediately. The episode ends and Ultron's like, Tommy. I got something to talk to you about. Time to talk to Pop-Pop. All of that was great. I thought that Bettany, you know, we're looking at Bettany's face, at Vision's face, but we're hearing Spader's voice. That was a thrill, obviously. That was incredible. It was really good. The lip sync alone, but like the performance is very like smirk, simper, sneer, gave the elevator eyes to a good old Dr. Joe. Definitely. It was really good. He was sort of sashaying around. Just like we've seen Paul Bettany play various versions of Vision. That was hard to say, various versions of Vision. We've seen him do that for like a decade or whatever, but to see him play Ultron was so fun. Yeah, it was wonderful. That was great. I really enjoyed that. And, you know, the choreography of that fight, the way that Ultron immediately knows how to get the upper hand so that he can say, like, I honored my word. I didn't kill you. Here you are. But also now you can't take this thing. Ultron loves the fine print. Wonderful stuff. I thought, you know, because we see at the beginning the third mystery kill and Butcher Bird going up in the elevator and emerging and we just get the eyes. The hood is still up, you know, until the big reveal here in the gala sequence. But just seeing the eyes. The hood, by the way. By the way, which she, like, creates, like, for no reason other than drama, honestly. Thank you to Tommy, by the way, for asking the tough questions. So you've just sort of been naked this whole time. As the day he was born. Just sort of been naked the whole time. And on a hotel bed, no less. If you're made of metal, can the hotel bed cooties get to you? I don't know. He has a lot of open, gaping, leaking, festering, vibranium holes. So I wouldn't risk it. Is metal festered? I don't know. It's an important question. But, yeah, it was, you know, the second you see those red eyes, you're like, that sure does look like Ultron. And then the full reveal of a very Ultron-like design, obviously, for Jocasta. That was just all really fun. You know, we have, like, throughout these two episodes, we've obviously had the deployment of newspapers, but the news footage in particular across all four episodes. We talked last week, many Butcher Bird mentions, obviously, then. And it's, like, brought to the fore here in these episodes. But the little nuggets that we get as the research begins, what we're hearing or reading or someone is learning, you know, we get, like, except for the project co-lead, Joe Carrington, who died of natural causes in 2008. We've got a lot of, like, interesting things to chew on right away. But then when we actually see Joe and Katerina Wells interact, and it's like, whoa. It's like the thing you took from me? Yeah. What does that mean? What exactly is the history between that? That group of five that we're introduced to, by the end of this episode, they are all dead. And Joe is the one who's like, but I'm back. She lives. I live in this other form. It's me. It's me. Yeah. So how much time will we be spending learning about that history? Presumably, that's going to be very crucial moving forward. And this is how Mary McDonnell gets her flashback money. I sure hope so. So that was all, you know, intriguing. Let's talk about this casting. Yeah, please. Tanan Miller is playing Jocasta, Dr. Joe. I know this performer best from Bly Manor. She's been in a number of Mike Flanagan projects, but Bly Manor is by far and away my favorite of her performances because she plays someone who, like, there's a reason why her memory is wrong, but she sort of glitches through time. And it's just this very beautiful, like, emotional, emotionally warm, like, tragic performance. And it's just, she's just, like, such an incredible performer, and I'm so excited to see her play. Yeah. An evil robot. Like, I just, like, I think she looks incredible when they, like, you know, sort of, like, flash into her human face. Yes. You know, when she's like, I am her. Like, all that stuff is so good. But, like, just this casting alone has me really excited for this. I haven't seen Bly Manor, but I loved her in Years and Years, a miniseries that I quite enjoyed. Really good. Yeah, I'm super excited as well. Jocasta, the character, created by Jim Shooter and George Perez in the first season. It first appeared in the Avengers, number 162, August 1977. The reason that the Bride of Ultron sort of comic keeps coming up is basically Ultron created her from Janet Pym. Hank Pym created Ultron, created her from Janet. So Janet Pym is both like his mother and also the inspo for his bride. So that's why we get Jocasta, if you know your Greek myth, why that name would be in there. But sort of similar to the Bride of Frankenstein story, doesn't really go well for Ultron the same way it doesn't really go well for Frankenstein. Not a happily ever after for those two crazy kids. But their sort of connection inside the comics has been really excited for like, and how clearly intrigued both Spader as Ultron and Bettany as Ultron are by this extremely hot killer robot. Yeah. And the fact that Vision. Sorry, of course, the one who is on the front line of saying like, right away, with literally no evidence to support it, but just a kind of core to his identity belief. We can fix her. We can fix her. He didn't extend that to Rosalyn, unfortunately. He said, don't kill the robot. Yeah. And then Ultron is like, that's not really my intention. I've got other things on my mind. There's a draw. There's a magnetism. He's like, I'm not interested in fixing her. That's right. To me, she is perfect. I love you just the way you are. Exactly. Yeah. This was interesting. And then, you know, again, we don't get much time with Katarina Wells, but the fact that we have glimpsed these little like, so am I guilty? People want to know, am I guilty? And it's this very kind of cold initial presentation in the footage, in the newsreel footage. But then when she gives this speech at the gala and we get the little history lesson about the Horton, about Phineas Horton and about Jim, and we'll talk about that more in a few minutes. But like, then there's this real regret and an apologetic. But like, how much of that is real and how much of that is. You're here to kill me. All my colleagues have been killed. Exactly. She's like, I am not her. I've evolved. Right. And we understand that like evolution is. And like that interview she gave, I think it was supposed to be right after Sokovia. So it's like a little while ago. So, yeah, she had time to see the error of her ways. But I really don't think that's what's going on with her here. Actually, one of my favorite details of this entire episode, like two episode arc. Yeah. Is how old her headshot on the gala thing. Relatable. It's just like you get a good headshot. You just sort of like, why would I get another one? You know what I mean? You just stick with it. And you're like, I don't know because I've never had a good headshot, but I do understand your headshot is beautiful. And it is also from at least five years ago. One of them is, yeah, we have new ones now, none of which have had a more recent one than the one that I tend to use. And I did not use it. Not because I thought the other one was good, but because that one was definitely not good. I am. The overall, like, the transhumanism pitch that she's making and everything that she's saying, which like the characters in the show, we as viewers at home are going to be inclined to mistrust, obviously, you know, big biotech here to tell you it's definitely all okay. Worrying. Obviously for me, the more, and I think for you and for probably most people watching it, the more interesting thing was how that was received by the characters in the show. So just like, I did really like that. That, um, exchange between Ultron and Vision before the takeover, before the, just give me control. It'll be fine. Everything I've been saying to you is I'm here to help. It'll be fine. At the wheel of the ship mere moments later. It wasn't fine. It was not fine. A monument to playing God, Ultron says, celebrating the wonders and dangers of an evolution they themselves created. Tale as old as time, right? Vision says, that's not my interpretation. Of course it isn't, Ultron says. And what is it you see? I see a family tree. Then we had to go back to repeating a line from the past. You remain unbearably naive and I groan. But before that I was, I was in it. And the idea of Vision, um, not, you know, just seeing a failing there from humanity, very court in his character, not just seeing the, uh, error of hubris, but seeing family of a form, a part of a whole, that all was interesting and made sense. I, I really liked thinking about when they're looking at the, the gym paint, the gym painting returns in this setting from the mind palace into the real world here. He was the first of us miraculous, but flawed. The idea that there are multiple versions of this family tree for a character like Vision, right? That he is thinking about, that the show is thinking about, um, you know, the, the family tree, the humans to AI on the Battlestar front. I've mentioned this before, but one of my favorite Battlestar posters is the, the, it's the, the, the evolution poster, but it starts with an actual toaster and then it ends on six. Just wonderful stuff. Great stuff. Used to have it. And then it got ruined in a move. I, I got to find another one of those, but the human to AI, um, family tree that Vision is thinking of, but also the AI evolution that he looks at this story of the original synthetic man and is thinking about how they are all connected to each other as well. Um, that's, that's, that was, that was interesting to see. Interesting. Um, you mean he felt to death. Um, it's tough. It's tough. Do you want to talk about gym? Yeah, let's do it. So we, we mentioned this on the previous podcast, but like, Jim Hammond, the first, the first of us, uh, Jarvis talked about him in that painting. We get the flash, the end of the episode between the painting and the, and the sort of maquette, um, the skeleton, but yeah, so overwhelmed. Doesn't have the mind stone there to sort of help him process his emotions. And as, as these various AI wonder if they can experience emotion, if that's something available to them, is that an advantage or a disadvantage? Guess what? It's probably going to be an advantage because this is a Disney plus show, but like something to think about, but like what role we have seen in the trailers, Jim Hammond, like this is a character in the show. So like, what is interesting to you about that? Um, I mean, I think a number of different things potentially, you know, again, the idea of vision as a character who is preoccupied perhaps in a way that could like leave him feeling stuck, right? If you're always studying the past to Ultron's point, how do you move into the future? Yeah. But that he is a character who was so interested in thinking about, I see a family tree. Well, that means not only progress and evolution and change over time, different versions. The fact that Katerina Wells presents, you know, you've got Ultron here, but then you have vision as like the ideal manifestation of this. Katerina loves, um, wordplay. So does Ultron, your blind vision, right? Or, but also the, the one with the vision to see things differently. Yes. Well, I mean, you know, the vision, it is one of the better ones. It is one of the better ones, the vision. Um, I don't, you know, I, how much of this is, is just about the way he thinks about lessons. Like, okay, is Tommy saying you mean he fell to death and then very quickly going into, uh, it's not just like, yeah, okay. I got to correct you, dad. Um, it's not just that he was lacking a mind stone. He was lacking family, right? So there's like the, the kind of lesson and the idea of the embrace. And then very quickly he's like, wait a minute. Did you just say five? I hated all of that. So I can't, I can't even engage with it. It was really clunky for him to like be so, so Ultron's the devil in the self-same episode. Like if you want to do this of like make the fact that Ultron's living inside a vision, something horrific to Tommy, then we needed like his connection to Sokovia or like people he met at Sokovia or, or whatever Ultron is AI Hitler or whatever needed to be something for him from the beginning, not in the self-same episode where it is sort of revealed that he's inside of him. Like, yeah, that did not work for me. I mean, I think that it would be reasonable to say that to basically every living person, Ultron is despised. Absolutely. But like a TV writing point of view, I'm not like, oh, why does Tommy not like Ultron? Like, yeah, I think the, even the, like, I, you know, Ultron coming in was helpful a little bit because he's like Freudian slip, how very human, you know, the idea that vision like wants to be found out. That part worked a little bit better, but yeah, not the smoothest part of the episode, but broadly, even though it was a little bit wobbly, this sequence, that core question. Okay. Is the idea of someone feeling to death, like a harbinger, a warning, a scary cautionary tale about the danger of opening yourself up or is it going to be, I, I had, I was thinking about lanterns a few times watching these episodes. You know, in some ways, actually like one of the good, the good things I like, you know, reminded me of our conversations about, you know, what's a lantern without a ring, right? You know, like you have to, we get to watch the true detecting. And so the, the, the ingenuity, the fact that vision is like, let's go through all of the ways that he's depowered and all of the parts that the things that don't work. And so what do we lean into instead? The more human aspects and the AI army inside of his mind. Yeah. And I like all of that. I just think this is also just the ongoing constant problem. The MCU has with vision being overpowered character and then being like, Oh, 90% of his functions are not functioning. Don't worry about it. Otherwise, there's just like, no question about the fight, et cetera, et cetera. Um, Ultron's out. As we mentioned, I expected Ultron to get out. I didn't expect it this quickly. This is similar to like the Tommy and vision being, uh, you know, on a road trip together. Yeah. Ultron's out mid season. Yeah. Maybe I should have expected that. And maybe it wouldn't have felt like so quickly if this wasn't like week two of us watching it or rather if it were like week four of us watching it. Yeah. But I'm just like, this feels like a good, I, yeah, I think I, you know, I, it's funny. I, now, you're saying that I don't know if this is earlier than I would have expected this or actually later than I would have expected. it if Ultron in episode one had been like time to go do some villain shit I would be like yeah that feels right so I yeah I don't know I guess I'm glad ultimately that we have enough episodes to continue to explore what this means I think no I think mid-season's a good place it just like I'm like I'm only two weeks into this story what's happening here um what did you think about the real literalization of the ship you know were you waiting for Ultron to update his line from don't be the ship be the captain to be the fucking I'm the captain now don't be the ship be the mutiny and captain have been great if I'm the captain now was playing uh on on the tvs instead of the wave uh the waves that we got the wave footage that would have been amazing I'm the captain now okay two things number one Ultron right before good old president Rosalyn gets vaporized and vision does the very like um shall we dance sort of moment you get to see reflected in her and a lot of oversized glasses in these last two episodes Friday Edith Rosalyn we're all just like rocking and I love it I love to see him in her oversized glasses from probably Celine or something like that um you can see Ultron not Paul Bettany's face but Ultron's face reflected in the glasses so that's that's a very cool moment and then it seemed like Dr. Joe needed that uh that biomarker was she gonna do without that but it's just a pile of ash now can't just sprinkle ash on whatever you need that biomarker for so what are you gonna do it's a great question I don't know the answer are we inventing time travel and going back in time I don't know Ultron likes to be in control right he doesn't want other people to have the choices so yeah all right should we go to sorry I should call him pop pop yeah please you can call me pop pop fucking killed me this guy rules let's go down the theory corner okay lovely fonting on that great new graphic guys loved it that's probably been here for like four weeks and we just didn't know Carlos told me this morning that's brand new brand spanking new yeah love it um okay so biomarkers why what does what does Dr. Joe need the biomarkers for okay so I'm not a um CEO I'm not a entrepreneur oligarch any of that and I'm not and I I've never participated in a heist but I've watched a lot of movies yeah yeah I mean I'm down yeah let's go let's hide something what what well don't know like this is the second pod and I think the same week where I've talked about doing a heist Rob and I talked about doing a diamond heist on slow horses I haven't watched the finale yet no spoilers not about heists this is sad I don't know if you've ever heard of the Presti TV podcast we talk about a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with anything um a diamond heist you want you want to should we join our forces for a diamond heist I don't know if you've ever heard of the Presti TV I'm in okay our other jewels part of it like sapphire whatever you want emerald you want ruby you know ruby I uh I'll take a sapphire okay you got my birthstone I mean blue really suits you okay right September is that right I'm an opal that's all I know oh oh that's nice um but here's what I know from movies if you buy a marker it's because you're trying to get into something yeah it's a vault yeah something something but she's got an eyeball the I need biomarkers to access something that part seems just clear yeah but what what are we trying to what's in the box right exactly what do we think something evil I would say well something that they work some tech that they worked on yeah yes right yeah has to be or money has to be because it's the it'll be really boring with people from this five if it's a mark ridge money like that's what if it's art what if it's some beautiful art for Ultron to look at more Jim Hammond paintings yeah just a Bosch or something like that yeah I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know what if this is really just the goldfinch you know but some stolen painting Donna Tartt you're always welcome here yeah the fact that these dead people now tough uh we're part of this group of five at the forefront of the evolution of AI consciousness so something that connects to that is accessible via their biomarkers I guess the question is when do we learn what it is like what is it but also when do we learn what it is and then is it a definite undeniable threat to our characters or is it something that they could potentially complicated benefit from like a stark drone could go either way usually bad will it help us check in on Brad's latest text messages I'd like to know me too I'd like to know okay uh Jim Hammond we already talked about I don't know what's going to go on there but like this is clearly something that they're laying the track for um in in footage that Marvel has released Paul Bettany is playing Jim Hammond so that is just a fun opportunity for more perhaps Paul Bettany on Paul Bettany acting great possibly will it lead you to any Al Pacino theories guess what I've learned my lesson oh uh we should say so Terry Metallus he was it was an interview with our our pal Eric Voss that Terry Metallus is first of all a that's not uh Billy in the background and then B when it comes to who hired Paladin Terry Metallus like so clearly had a like please don't go Mephisto crazy on this he's like that's not what this show is so he's trying to temper our expectations that it's not like it's not gonna be doom or you know something like that like he's like we're not yeah yeah he's like keep it contained right but so what is that where does that I mean that makes sense but like so does that just mean it's more likely that's somebody we already know like Ultron right or something already our leading contender right so that's uh he's like don't go big like Sharon Carter keep it small have you updated any of your suggestions here we do have one fun suggestion that I think is a bit in the uh Mephisto vein MC Scott who says I'm following this under probably unlikely but fun to think about in the Winter Soldier we learned that Zola uploaded his consciousness into a computer system and which is then destroyed by the missile strike meant to kill Steve and Natasha but his willingness to go down with the bunker has always felt a little off to me this man devoted so much time energy and ingenuity to preserving himself only to sacrifice it all for an attempt on Steve Rogers that wasn't even guaranteed to work if he could communicate with the outside world to help coordinate that strike could he also have had a way to upload himself elsewhere basically he's saying what if what if it's Zola um wonderful email no bad ideas in a brainstorm no bad ideas in a brainstorm I'm inclined to say uh no and I'm inclined to say it feels like that would be more at home in a show that had more to do with Cap and Steve Rogers and Tony however let us never miss an opportunity let us never miss an opportunity to recall that when we went back in Endgame fucking Howard Stark is just like Zola my guy what's up so isn't it all the same story it is you know all of this has happened before and it will all happen again um Zola would be wild I don't think that's gonna be it but uh that would be you know Zola's always welcome that's my take I don't think it's a I don't think it's a woman I don't know how much you can manipulate a voice the handler is doing the handler and paladin were saying him a lot okay in this episode but that could be a misdirect okay but they said him uh all right but that might not mean anything hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com if you have new theories about this let me find what they said him gonna do a control f for him and my google doc 79 results not ideal let's see let me do handler instead only six great let's let's see your new body sucks handler and paladin both refer to the client as him that's all I wrote down didn't see it worth going back to find it but I did right this specifically right handler and paladin both refer to the client as him quote him quote yeah to make sure that I knew it was a direct quote from the show yeah so there's there's that there's that that was from episode three huh okay yeah um it was history on the client front yeah here's something that we hear the client say it was history itself that recommended the paladin that is to me a very ai synth thing to say okay I assessed all the data and it was history itself that recommended the paladin that is to me a very ai synth thing to say this is what handler says boss I've got the client on the line he insists on speaking to you I've told him you don't want to talk but he insists no put him on okay so there you go he him yeah do you agree it was history itself that recommended the paladin seems like an ai thing to say doesn't not yeah stock the fridge with easter eggs great yeah it's a very jaunty tune yeah very jaunty too loved it a lot uh any easter eggs you want to call out in particular that we haven't mentioned already I mean I think it goes beyond certainly being an easter egg but for me all the battlestar ties and these episodes were my favorite thing I just thought that was um delightful and I love thinking about one of my favorite shows ever so that's it for me I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it I hope you enjoyed it what about you um the fact that edith Marks is wearing the Edith glasses. Yeah, that was good. Pretty great. Once again, shout out Oversized Glasses. Oh Dear being the track name on Jarvis' album, right? Because like the other ones, it was like Allison Hogan, then Friday was the track name or like Edith Marks, you know, like whatever. But it was like Edwin Jarvis, Oh Dear. Yeah. Great stuff. Sybil. Mm-hmm. Sure. A reference to the idea of like hearing multiple voices in your head. I thought that was really fun. We already mentioned who is the boss. And then there's an IT crowd reference. Try turning it off and turning it back on again. And I'm always here. That was great. My guy, Richard Ayoade from the IT crowd, among other things, is crushing on Taskmaster this season. So any chance to mention Taskmaster, I will. I know. Sad. I'm missing out. Yeah, I know. They're doing a live show. Oh, where? At the Hollywood Bowl. Here? Next summer. Never been. Like sold out multiple times. We can manage. Oh, no. I got tickets. Thanks. I got tickets. Actually, Rob Mahoney got us tickets. There you go. Very excited. Never been to the Hollywood Bowl. Lived in L.A. 13 years. I went to the Sing Along Sound of Music with Kim Renfro and Daphne. Oh, legends. Legends both. I've driven through Hollywood Bowl traffic quite a bunch, including last night when I almost missed a screening as a result of it. Speaking of events in L.A., this Saturday, it's sold out, but this Saturday, they're doing a screening of Werewolf by Night with Michael Giacchino doing a Q&A after. And that was announced before this episode came out, but I was just sort of like, oh, it's in the water. A fun Halloween. If I weren't busy and also it's sold out, I would definitely go see Werewolf by Night on a big screen. I think that would be so cool. Someone can get you in if you want. Okay. Yeah, you've put it out there. I'm busy. The Prestige back in theaters? Oh, yeah. Well, that's because Nolan wants that Oscar. It's in January. Fun stuff. That's an Oscar play. Fun stuff. For sure. All right. Needle Drops. Yes. Sky says, Loved hearing you flag the ship-themed songs, and it immediately made me think of the song The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald by Gordon Lightfoot. If we get it later this season, I will absolutely lose my mind. Thank you so much, Sky. That's a great shout. I would love that. The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald would really fit with, like, Calypso and the other sort of ship things. We did not get any ship-themed music that I could parse, but always something there to remind me, even though it was very on the nose for a flashback, but always something there to remind me by Naked Eyes. Great. And the theme from The Greatest American. The Greatest American Hero, one of the greatest TV theme songs of all time. Believe it or not, I'm walking on air. Right? Yeah. Never thought I should be so free. Or, if you're a Seinfeld fan, believe it or not, George isn't at home. You know, please leave a message at the beep. Whatever you prefer. Remember answering machines? I do. Sheesh. We get Mozart and Beethoven inside the Mayan Palace. Nothing too huge to shout out here, but I am going to keep this corner going no matter what. Love it. Last but not least, wig wash with me, Joanna Robinson. Do you wear wigs? Look at that one. That one was so fun. That was cool. With the eye? Yeah. That was great. Mary McDonald. What's happening? Also, on the wicker front. Couldn't tell it was a wig. It doesn't occur to me when I'm watching. I don't even think about it. Okay. On the wig wash front, though. So, have you seen Olivia Colman on the wicker press tour? Yes. Looks amazing. Have you seen that Alexander Skarsgård wore that wig to a wicker Q&A this past week? No, I haven't. The long, iron-gray curls. I haven't. But I'll be on the lookout for it. Yeah. I've been served a lot of reels of their press appearances together, which are obviously all delightful. You know, them getting to see the popcorn bucket for the first time, very memorable. But I haven't seen him wearing the wig. I look forward to seeing it. Mallory has probably been wearing the wig for the first time. The problem is that if I say on a podcast, I can get into anything, and I'm just going to put this on a podcast. Get Mallory Rubin that wicker popcorn bucket thing. You know, initially, I was going to be at the movie theater tonight for a different film, and I'm like, great news. I'll be able to buy the wicker popcorn bucket. But then I saw the movie already, and now I don't. Well, I'm going to the movie theater tonight, so I'll see if I can get it. Guess what? I found the person who can get the popcorn bucket. Oh, no. Solved. It's me. Anything else you want to say on the wig wash front? I mean, the Mary McDonnell wig is wonderful. But it is wigging out. I learn so much from you all the time. You believe me? Yeah. Any other wig commentary from these episodes? That was it? Okay. What a wonderfully inert way to end a podcast. Anything else you want to say? Let's see. Anyone else doing any interesting things with wigs? In the world? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Any. Any wig-based properties we might be interested in? Let's see. I mean, certainly. Yeah. So, we'll cover on the pod. Is that. God, is that tomorrow? Yeah. Jeez. Clayface, Wicker, and Wildwood. So, there's some wigs to talk about there. Sure. And obviously, the stop-motion animation hair. Yes. Fascinating to discuss. Really good. Incredible. Really good. Absolutely incredible. Really good. Wildwood, visually astounding. Man. Looked amazing. What a peppier way to end a podcast. Most. Man. That better way to end a podcast. We're done. Thank you so much to Jacob Cornett, who's here. Hey, thanks. Carl Scherboga, who hit us with some new animations. Yeah, look at that. That dazzled us. Amazing. Arjuna Rampal. Not here. Ghosted us. Scott Lee. Scott's here. Shout out, Scott. Shout out, Scott. I mean, shout out to Arjuna, too. He did slack us. He was like, I won't be there, but I'll see you tomorrow. Okay. He's always with us in our hearts. In our hearts and our minds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to the squad. We'll be back with the fall movie extravaganza, as well as some other fun announcements next week. And we'll see you soon. Bye.