‘VisionQuest’ Episode 7 Deep Dive. Plus, Paul Bettany!

hello and welcome back to house of art i'm joanna robinson joining me today first and foremost is mallory rubin she's beautiful are you prepared to go snorkeling into your subconscious secondly and dare i say love and respect more slightly more importantly paul bettany's on the podcast today oh my god vision himself unbelievable aka spoilers jim himself aka phineas horton himself aka white vision red vision hex vision whatever you prefer he's here jarvis it's paul bettany on the podcast we'll talk about vision quest what a treat what i'm not lying he was here right there right here mere moments ago so um smelled great looked great was very insightful you guys talk about master and commander that's a little bit of a tease stay tuned to hear more do you remember when he was like do you want me to answer your master and commander question and i went yes he could tell it was important to you okay so you're gonna have to uh hang around and wait for that a bit after this this episode is brought to you by quince we've all got something in our closet that we go back to again and again the trick is finding pieces like that and luckily quince is all about creating elevated everyday essentials you'll never want to take off their pieces are high quality and made with materials like organic cotton and premium stretch denim without insane markups like you can get 100 mongolian cashmere sweater starting at fifty dollars i've been loving personally quince has a whole line of linen button-down shirts and i'm in my linen button-down shirt era because summers in los angeles are oppressively hot so this is something i've been really really enjoying based off of what i got from quince and i was really shocked by how reasonably priced they were so you can find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at quince download the quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in canada and the uk too and when quince asks where you heard about them let them know it was house of r it's the best way to support the show this episode is brought to you by boar's head you know what i love about football season it's the football but also the football watching food and nothing hits like a boar's head sandwich when i'm watching the game really any game day sandwich better with boar's head philly cheesesteak layer up buttery slider rolls with boar's head london broil roast beef american white cheese and picante provolone delicious then add roasted onions peppers and boar's head pub style horseradish and then you've got the best way to support the show if you're radish sauce. I love horseradish. And you've got the ultimate game day cheesesteak. You've also got a whole lineup of premium meats, cheeses, hummus, and dips, condiments, and more to serve up on game day. Head to your local Boar's Head deli counter to shop now. For game day sandwich inspiration and more, visit boar'shead.com. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. Okay, so quick programming reminders. Earlier this week. That's right. On Sunday. Yes. We dropped our first Fellowship of the Pod episode. We did. With freaking Kumail Nanjiani was on the pod to talk about Fellowship of the Ring. We're living. We're living right now. We're really having a time. We are. So if you've not engaged with that, our Fellowship of the Ring project has kicked off. We're doing nine episodes in total. Yes. So episode one is our first episode. It's already dropped. Yes. You can go on our socials to find full sort of schedule of which chapters of the book we're covering, which sections of the movie we're covering. And if this is your first time hearing about it, hey, guess what? We're covering Fellowship of the Ring, the movie, and also the book. Yeah. Sort of beat by beat, chapter by chapter over nine episodes with some friends and pals and fellow nerds. 25 year anniversary for Fellowship of the Ring. We haven't announced. We're old and we're washed. We haven't announced the lineup, but I'm really excited about all the guests that are joining us. And Kumail was a real treat. Just a real nerd to hear to talk passionately about Fellowship of the Ring. Wonderful experience to open with Kumail and excited for the whole run and then to keep talking about the future movies and books for years to come. Yeah. Two Towers next year. We don't intend to stop. Return to the King the year after that. That's the plan. Also Rings of Power. That's right. Is the thing that's happening. Just days, days away. What is time? I don't know. So that's happening. It's a lot to keep track of. So should folks make sure they don't miss a Paul Bettany or Kumail Nanjiani appearance on the podcast? I mean, great question. Here's what I'd recommend. Follow the pod. Why not? Follow House of R on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch full video episodes of House of R on Spotify and of course on YouTube. So subscribe to the Ringiverse YouTube channel. Is that what it sounds like when you subscribe? Okay, great. It's probably, it's probably like more of like a, like a, like the dinging of a bell, I would think. I sort of prefer, even though the sound is obsolete, the TiVo, like boop boop. Oh sure. Remember? That was, oh yeah, of course. That's a very satisfying sound. We're two people who are like, Fellowship of the Ring is about to turn 25. We got to talk about it. Of course I remember the TiVo sound. Bring back the TiVo sound. I don't care which company uses it. Well, I do. Not an evil one. If a benevolent tech company wants to pay TiVo for the boop boop sound, I would like to bring it back. Okay. Hobbitsanddragonsgmail.com. That's right. The inbox is always open and follow us on social at House of R pod on Instagram. On TikTok. Follow the Ringiverse. And yeah, we've got a busy and exciting fall. Winter. I mean, we're only a few weeks away from Dune Part 3. Doomsday. Weeks is doing a lot of work there. It's like six weeks. Yeah. More than a month. Okay. Spoiler warning today. I already dropped a few little spoiler nugs, but. You did. Yeah, you did. I mean, there are some characters played by an actor in this show. Okay. Episode seven. Through episode seven of Vision Quest. Paul Bettany also talked about through episode seven, dropped some hints about the finale too. That's really fun. Intriguing. All of the MCU. All of Marvel Comics. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe Star Trek. Maybe something else. Sure. Of course. Rhinestone Cowboy by Clint Campbell. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. We have a strong musical episode yet again. Love it. Should we go to the opening snapshot? Let's do it. Immolation. Written by Matthew Okamura and directed by Terry Metallus, who also directs the finale. So that is very exciting. I think he did a great job with this episode. We loved this episode. Yes. Episode seven. We have not loved every single, you know, decision we've seen on Vision Quest this season, but we really, really liked this episode a lot. Yeah. What's working here that maybe it was a little bit more of a waste of time? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't working elsewhere. Let's keep it positive. Keep it light. What's working here? I thought this was the best episode of the season by like a comfortable margin. It was my favorite. I really thought this was great. And I think in some ways because it was just really strong. The writing was good. The performances were wonderful. In some ways, maybe because this was the episode that felt most like the thing that we thought the show was going to be, you know? It really, and I think frankly, like if we go back to the beginning of the season, we kind of like were anticipating that and speculating that that might be the case where with WandaVision and Agatha, we started with such a ferocious dynamism and then, you know, the kind of like petering out toward the end a little bit. And that this was maybe, we have a lot to establish and a lot of characters and a lot of dynamics and a lot of connections, not just to WandaVision and Agatha, but elsewhere across the MCU. I think just the back half of the season, you know, things really started to pick up, I think for us in episode four. So a little bit more than the back half of the season. So this is like a. You're saying this is a pro-Jocasta podcast. I mean, I think that Ultron and Joe have been wonderful together, getting to see today's podcast guest, Paul Bettany, as multiple visions, as Phineas Horton, as Jim. I mean, I thought that the Jim-Vision conversations were just absolutely wrenching and wonderful. And there's so much emotional, not just mining, but catharsis in this episode with Vision and Tommy, Tommy reading Vision's letter. You know, you're like really. It's really. I was really moved by it. I also think they've really figured out what mode Paladin is best in. I quite enjoyed Paladin in this episode. And I think that this is and, you know, I've been a fan of Paul Bettany's since, you know, A Knight's Tale, right? Since he played Chaucer. Basically, it's the first time I remember seeing him and been just like a huge, huge Paul Bettany fan. I just think he is actually quite incredible. I think. This is some of the best acting he's ever done is in this episode. In that sequence, that confrontation with Jim, when Jim is pushing on Vision and is like, who are you? Where, you know, where's the Vision? That's the million dollar question. Who are you? Who are you? And we get this sort of grief catharsis moment where he talks about what he lost. He lost Billy, he lost Tommy, he lost Wanda. And I was crying, you know, and I mean, like, we are many years invested into the Wanda and Vision relationship. We love the show WandaVision. So, you know, this. The idea of the absence of Wanda, the grief over Wanda. And like, you know, we've had to watch all season. It's the premise of the season, but watch him push Wanda away and call her Wanda Maximoff. And, you know, I, you know, she did this like terrible thing or a mountain fell on her. Like, don't worry about her. Like, whatever the case may be. And then here's just the real tremendous sorrow. And it reminded me, yes, we have some quibbles about the ending of WandaVision, but also like, you know, those moments of watching Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda just like scream crying, like building the hex out of a grief catharsis of her own. And so. And I just – I thought it was incredibly powerful and also just like really fun in terms of the dual journey that Jocasta and Ultron and Vision go on. Vision being stuck in a sort of like a glitching, looping, running through the same halls of the manor, inception-y kind of journey inside of the soul into the human robotic heart, I just thought was really, really good. Great shit. Really loved it. I think that the question across the season of like what does it mean to be human? You know, we talked last pod about that moment with Jocasta and Ultron where it's like what – okay, we kind of talk about how do we get more humanity in us, but should we be putting more of the machine into them, right, in this larger looming question? What is worth preserving? What is worth fighting for? And I just really loved with Jim – I thought the Jim stuff was – It was just so, so, so good. The frustration, the anger, the resentment, right? But all of it pushing Vision to this place of the most like relatable human thing, which is I have had this distance from this thing. I have been stubborn and dug in and reluctant because I can't face the hurt inside of me. Add to the list of things we're not, super quantum computer processing, AI, vibranium robots. But I think every person watching that has their experience with something like that, right? I just am not ready to stare the truth plainly in the face. And so what is that doing to you and to the other people around you? It just was a beautiful examination. It really was. Like how my survivor pool is doing? I'm just not ready to look at it. What's the state of things? Is it grim? It's not great. It's not great. It's not great. No, I think that's beautiful. I think the story of Jim and Phineas. I mean, let's start there. Let's just go into our deep dive and start with bad dad of the week, Phineas Horton. A manor in the country, right? Okay. So we open with Phineas Horton and his wife doing some heavy exposition lifting, telling us sort of, hey, your son's dead. He's been dead for three years. You've got a flesh and blood living daughter here. You're selling the country manor to pursue this, you know, Pinocchio-esque, Frankenstein-esque sort of idea of making yourself another Jim, a new Jim, a clockwork Jim. Are we meant to believe, I think we are, that his daughter Victoria, who swipes the book here, is Mary McDonald's character, even though Mary McDonald's character is named? She's named Katerina Wells. Oh, interesting. Because they have the book. They have that code book, and she says my father, something about her father in the presentation. I think it's very weird that, like, I'm fine with a different last name, obviously. Like, you can get married or change your name or whatever the case may be. But, like, they very clearly say Victoria in this sequence, and then she's Katerina, so I don't know, like. Oh, interesting. But I think that's who that's supposed to be. Don't you think so? Oh, had not occurred to me, to be honest. Interesting. Thomas and Drac is at gmail.com if that is incorrect, but I think that that's the implication. And I think certainly the idea of family ties that we are continuing to surface feels undeniable and essential because, like. Or maybe the granddaughter, because I don't know that the timeline would work out for, like, Mary McDonald to have been a child. Because, like, we're in the 1930s. Yeah, 39. Yeah. Okay, so maybe granddaughter. So, I, perhaps the reason I wasn't even really. The going down that theory corner path was just because, you know, so we get, we see Phineas' face, obviously, toward the end of the episode, we will see Jim's face. Yeah. Their vision's face. There's the fun little, you have my face, no, you have mine. Yeah, yeah. And so, right away here at the beginning of the episode when we see Phineas and it's Paul Bettany, this whole, like, season-long thing about human avatars and who is the inspiration. Okay, so, like, right away, before the end of the episode, you just start to feel this, when we've been speculating all season. Oh, that there's a spader coming. Yeah. You know, Edith had asked, well, why did you choose this form? And he's like, that's mean. So, you're sort of bracing for, okay, we're going to get the, we're going to see, we're going to get the Ultron version of this at some point. Right. And we still have plenty that we don't know about that, that we will, I assume, learn in the finale. But the fact that toward the end of this episode, we get spader in two places. We get him with Jocasta, thus connected to their work. And then we get him coming out of the manse with his, like, you know, hunting rifle and everything. So, I feel like. That's a splendid mustache. Incredible mustache. The goggles? Or goggles, glasses? What are those called? I need them. But I don't know what they're called. The shape of the. Very, like, geometric fashion glasses. Delightful. So, I was just more focused on, okay, well, we see that in this opening stretch, Phineas has sold the estate. You know, selling off everything so that he can fund the gym project. Does that mean that whoever this character is that Spader is playing is just the money who came in and bought this place down the line? Or does that mean he's connected to the family? So, I wasn't really focused on the wife and daughter. Much like Phineas Horton, I was not focused on the wife and daughter. We don't get a name for him, right? No. No, we don't know yet. Who this Spader person is. But, yeah. So, he's Joe's partner. Yes. And the question we had been asking ourselves earlier was, like, you know, because you had been positing this idea that, like, this person was involved in the creation of what was going on. Yeah. So, did he. You know, you said this thing about, like, is he just the money or whatever. Right. Why is he not mentioned in any. Why is he not in the lineup with all the other scientists? Like, what is. Yeah. How deep of an erasure job has gone on? Is it just in Joe's mind? Right. But, like, you know, the stuff that Edith was working with, you know, didn't seem to mention another person being involved when he was, like, her close collaborator. You know, I just find that. I will say, while I thought this episode was wonderful, it still did. I did still have a couple notes, and that was one of them, actually, the, like, the idea. Because we see all the stuff when Joe is in the loft, and the news footage, and the champagne flutes, and the memories, and the dances. The duo, the duo. And, like, we hear things about how that duo has been on the forefront of innovation. So, the thing that, you know, we had been talking about in prior pods was, like, the way that Jocasta was introduced to us by the Edith download was as the co-lead of the project. But nobody else in that group of five that we had been introduced to was also identified as the co-lead. That just felt kind of intentional and conspicuous. That's interesting. Because I was thinking. You had Katarina as the other lead for some reason. Yeah, and it could have just been that. But, yeah, so I did find myself in the reveal that there was this other person who won this award with Jocasta. And, obviously, she shared this life with and this wonderful partnership. Yeah, her romantic partner. Yeah, some beautiful dancing. I was, like, how did they, how did our AI family not know about this guy? I don't know that that totally tracks unless it is what you just said. Like, maybe blasted from the internet that Ultron, like. What else to go into? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not really sure if we'll get an answer for that or if it's just something that we kind of are asked to accept. But, yeah, we have all of our human avatars now. We just need to learn more about who Spader actually is. Who is that guy? I guess if Katarina was Victoria. Because she talks about Phineas Horton. She calls him the great-grandfather of AI. So, I feel like she, certainly not her father. But she's, like, in her, like, 60s. That's what I'm saying. Like, it can't be the same. Like, maybe granddaughter or whatever. I thought she said something about her own father. But I don't know. But I did not go back and check. Maybe I should not, like, dwell in this because I didn't do my due diligence in scrubbing back through the take. But, like, the book is curious to me. And, like, the naming Victoria as, like, a person. For sure. And we zoomed in on the book. Yeah. How does the book get from Victoria to is she James Spader's character's mom? You know what I mean? Like, are we going to find that out in the finale? I don't know. But, like, I think all of that's quite interesting. Anyway, point being, Phineas Horton, bad dad. One of many. He doesn't give a shit about his living, breathing daughter. Yes. Which I think the charitable read, if we open our hearts. Too wounded by the loss. Yes, exactly. You know. Cannot open himself up to love. Must distance himself so that he cannot suffer that kind of pain. But then, of course, what's the lesson? I have no room for this. No, yeah. What's the lesson? Then you hurt your kid so that you don't end up. He's like, daddy's got to do this, baby. Sorry. Hurting yourself. Sad, cautionary tale, tragic. Very, very tough. Shout out his wife who has a couple of groaner lines on this, but I did enjoy Hope You Can Build Something That Could Love You Back, Sick Burn from Mrs. Horton, the former Mrs. Horton. Yeah. So that's our cold open. We will come back to Phineas Horton, painting enthusiast. That's right. Met a bad end by his own creation. Ain't that always the way? I mean, so it goes. So it goes. Great wig on Bettany as Phineas Horton here. And I kind of like, in terms of the watching him play three different characters in one scene, which we will get to later, like the digital de-aging. The de-aging that they did for Jim is sort of like very smooth, almost like Gigolo Joe from AI Jude Law sort of like hair and face. And then Phineas Horton is like craggier than Bettany actually is with like, you know, the stubble and the must hair, stuff like that. So the three stages of man. Just, I really liked all that as well. I loved the you will be free, my boy line because, of course, it not only is something that's it's interesting to think about in this legacy Of the fear of grief and then the embrace of the pain. But, like, obviously that's Ultron talk, right? With, like, the strings. Setting the strings on me. Yeah. The idea of these strings is, you know, not just a way for the AI, the synths, to break free of human control. But the idea of being free of the bind, of your pain, of your loss. Of humanity. Of humanity. Which, of course, is, like, what White Vision has sort of walled himself off to. Of, like, from. But Jim, on the other hand, is, like, it's all I want. Yes. Put those strings back on me. I want his, whatever his dalliance was. I don't know who his lady love was. Can't wait to learn more about that one day, hopefully. You know, like. Yeah. He's, like, I. And what artificial being wouldn't want this is what he says, right? Yes. Yeah. Who wouldn't want. Who wouldn't want to feel, like, real. And the idea that, you know, obviously we've talked a lot about Wanda and the creation of the Hex because of the grief. But, like. Like, we knew before we got to meet Jim and spend time with him in this episode. We knew because we had heard in episode four at the gala exchange, like, so he, like, died because he felt too much. The idea that he had been consumed by feeling. And Jarvis, like, from the very beginning. We bring into this with us. You know, was pointing to the portrait. But, yeah, this idea of, like, he felt so much, you know, that there was just sort of, like, fire in the air around him. And this, you know, the name of the episode, Immolation. Yes. But this fire motif. Not just watching Jim, like, take the fire off his body. Put it into the fireplace. But just this burning. What that has to do with emotionality motif. The ticking clock time motif. And then, of course, for our girl, Jocasta, birds everywhere. Bird motif galore. All of the, like, shift focus from Jocasta to, like, a bird statue that's somewhere in that crypt. Especially once they have her, like, cuffed and her head's down. And then we, like, cut to a bird statue with its head down. But, yeah. Okay. So the client arrives. Sort of. Right. Here's my question. As we find ourselves in this crypt where Jocasta's body, Joe's body is buried. Yes. If you date Joe, Dr. Joe. Yeah. And are sort of digitally consumed into her body. Okay. Does that mean you never need to fly commercial ever again? Because Ultron just smooched her and then they were where they needed to be. They were just there. But, I mean, it's like Ultron. The thing that, there's a lot that we don't know about Ultron and that we're still asking and wondering. And maybe we'll still be after the finale. But a thing we know about Ultron is that he's in the internet. He is. He's in the internet. Friday's back in the internet. Friday's back on the net. Kills me. Zooming around ones and zeros. Oh, man. Ultron calls her banging bod a cage. How do you feel about that? Well, like you said, on the bird imagery front, a lot of the, yeah. Her nanobot nest. The nest. Yeah. And that was interesting, too, to hear in the glimpse we got of the, in the post awards show back at the loft couch chat where we were about to see that that spader refers to it as the nest there. Yeah. So this is like a thing. And this makes sense. Joe's always loved a bird. Yeah, you port this thing from your human life into your sleep life. Do you have, I mean, is it, like, do you have an animal that, like, is it, like, we were talking about this, how, like, sometimes people have an animal. Like, when I was, when I was 12, it was, like, dolphins. Like, give me things with dolphins on them. Or, like, you know, people are like, oh, I love an owl. Give me an owl mug. Give me an owl, like, whatever. It used to be, so obviously I love cats. But in terms of that specific thing, like, it used to be giraffes. I really liked giraffes when I was a kid. Giraffe girl. I have a very long neck, and it was something for when I was younger, I was very insecure about it. So, like, kind of lean, I think it was something that some of the people who loved me were like, oh, like, these are just giraffes. Look at that. Look at a giraffe. But then some people in my life who shall remain nameless, I would say, started over-indexing on giraffe gifts. And I was like, we gotta, we gotta chill. I'm all good on the giraffe stuff. People or person? There was a person. Okay. A person. Uh-huh. Okay. Not who you're thinking, but related. Like, a relative of that person. Um. Yeah. Don't Ultron go to open the nanobot nest, but there is another Skywalker. Biomarker. You know what? This was fun. Yeah. It was fun going around. They gooped the eye. Oh. Gross. You know what? The blood, the drop of blood was the grossest, I thought. I don't know. The fingerprint was pretty, pretty tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Shroud of Turin, Mary McDonald. Tough to have your facial recognition be so glasses dependent. I think mine would be, probably. But, like, it was, like, 90% glasses on that, on that little shroud there. Sure was. Um. Remember when we were at dinner with someone who we will not name, and I took my glasses off because you wanted to try my glasses off. They look, on, they look stupid on you because your face is so small and delicate, and these glasses are huge. I look terrible in glasses. No, you look fine in glasses in general, but you should not wear these glasses. It's all wrong. But I took them off, and the person we were with looked at me kind of slack-jawed, and he was like, I've never seen you with your glasses off, and it, like, upset him. He was, like, perturbed by it. You know what? It's, uh, I like you in all your forms. If you need to steal my face to open a nest of nanobots, you're going to have to get the glasses. Don't encourage them. Don't encourage them, the people of the internet. Okay, so you're, you're, it's blood dropper for you. It was gross. I'm kind of torn between goopy eyeball. And fingerprint, honestly. Reciting verses from, you know. Edgar Allen Poe. Edgar Allen Poe, obviously, is a Ravens fan. I mean, wonderful. That was great. That was fun. I told you when we were in Baltimore that that was the first time I put that together, right? Did I know that Edgar Allen Poe was from Baltimore? Yes. But we were staying at, like, a Hyatt or whatever it was, and there was, like, a quote from the Raven on the mirror, the, like, the hotel mirror. Yeah. And you were like, that's why this team is called. And I just had a moment, and I was like, wow, that's why they're the Baltimore Ravens. Like, I knew Poe. I knew Poe was from Baltimore. I just didn't know that Baltimore was like, did you know? Yeah, sure. Do you know that the Ravens, the Baltimore Ravens. The Edgar Allen Poe is from here. Have three mascots. Okay. Edgar Allen and Poe. Oh. Yep. Poe toured ZACL a few years ago, out on the field. Tough. It was. Which came first, the Ravens or the Orioles? Thanks for asking. The Orioles have been in Baltimore way longer. The now Indianapolis Colts used to be the Baltimore Colts. Johnny Unitas. I grew up. I've been on Johnny Unitas stories. And then the Colts left town in the middle of the night. This is like an infamous sports story. And there was no NFL team in Baltimore for a long time. And then the Ravens used to be the Cleveland Browns, relocated to Baltimore. And now the Cleveland Browns are back in Cleveland. Okay. I was going to say, I was like, I've heard of the Cleveland Browns. Okay. Do you think. Thanks for asking. If the Orioles hadn't been the Orioles, they would have been like, the football team would have been like the Annabelle Leeds. They had. There was a big. Or like the Gold Bugs. So I was. Like a different Poe thing. And not a bird. Maybe. But they were like, let's just. My memory. And I was 10. Like a bird motif. When the Ravens came to Baltimore. I do. I have a pretty vivid memory of this because they put a, when they chose the logo, they put a temporary tattoo into the Baltimore Sun. And I wore it on my arm for a really long time. But then they had to change the logo because it was like this winged shield thing that like apparently like it was somebody else's design. But my memory at the time was that there were other, there was like a whole thing about what the name was going to be. And there were other contenders. And it was very publicly discussed, the process of selecting the name. I think the Clippers. The Clippers were a finalist, actually. So I don't know if it would have just been another Poe thing, but. If they want to rebrand, I would consider the Gold Bugs. I think the Baltimore Gold Bugs. The Baltimore Gold Bugs. Would be a cool Poe reference. This is a true. I'm about to tell you. And I'm going to tell you another thing here. Another sports thing. So currently the Washington Wizards, the NBA team. Yeah. Used to be the Baltimore. And I swear this is true. Bullets. This is true. Okay. So the Clients. The Clients shows up. And his identity is hidden for like one of the last times. Yeah, but what's he wearing? What's he wearing? A fucking hat. He's here to spook the Vision family. Invoked derision from Ultron Mallory Rubin. I had it here in my note. How did you feel about the hat? I felt delighted because we've been on Hat Watch all season. And it was fun because on the one hand, as soon as we saw that silhouette. And again, in Madripoor, in the prior set of episodes, the little kind of like in the crinkle and of the static on the TV. There's the hat. All of the Ultron Vision hat talk all season. Immediately you see the silhouette. And you're like, oh, it's Ultron. It's going to be Ultron. But the skinny, slender frame, even the position in front of the house was very much a mirror to how Vision walked up to the Mind Palace at the beginning of the season. So you were like, maybe it's Vision? I just think they did a good job, even in the moment of the hat silhouette of like, okay, we're heading in an Ultron-y direction, we think. But the other possibilities are still in the mix. I just think it's really, I mean, it's not Ultron, right? It's this. It's a mustachioed spader. A spader. Yeah, a spader. But I would like to. But why is Ultron wearing that guy's face? To envision mustachioed spader sitting at home choosing his avatar. And he's like, let's go slender. I mean. He's like, let's go. Let's go to my youth. We'll get a hat. And this is the avatar I choose. Delightful that when he walked out at the end, he had a hat on. Different shape. Different hat. But he had a hat on. I cannot wait. I already told you that a good friend of mine. And I was like making fun of him. How much he has in common with Ultron. He wears one of those like. Oh, yeah. Caps. Yeah. All the time. Does he carry a hunting rifle? I don't think he carries the rifle like open with a. But actually he would. He loves guns, actually. This is my. This is a strange friend of mine. I love him. But he does love guns. Okay. You sound so desperate. So human. Great. I love that. I'm everything you can ever be. Okay. So we have a better idea of this now, right? Like. Where are you? I guess, 'cause like my interpretation is this is the, the human whose face ultron is wearing unbeknownst to ultron right the question of why ultron has that face it's not something we know and ultron's world is shocked because he's like i'm a one of one i'm an original right that's right he was already rocked by peace in our time not being you know uh you know something that yeah so he's not gonna deal well with this but before he gets there right you sound so desperate so human you were sort of on on synthwatch for for the client yeah when he said this did you say ultron's probably right uh so you so we can get matching mugs thanos is right ultron was right like um did you think that or were you still on synthwatch or where were you i you know i think one of the things that the show has done the best job of doing not just in terms of speculating and theorizing but in terms of its thematic examination is that it's not just speculating and theorizing it's not just speculating and theorizing it's is the intentional messiness and muddiness of that question right if the synth has humanity inside that's part of the point of the show if the human does something that feels very like i need to put the emotions that make me a person at a remove inside of my own life and i need to be more synthetic that's here in the text as well so i didn't feel i felt like okay yeah maybe this is a person but a person who has what dabbled in the pursuit of artificial intelligence perhaps based on the the the couch conversation that we got with the with joe so um yeah it feels like it's kind of all in the mix still i mean that i mean i definitely think that guy's just a human like a guy yeah a human but in in what pursuit of or connection to the idea of artificial life right so he says i'm everything that you could never be as in like because because he's like who's that and then chakas is like shut up ultron i was like girl you need to learn to keep your mouth shut you're banging on the wall you're banging on the wall you're banging on the wall and your beautiful mouth shut uh when a mysterious client is like who's that she's like ultron shut it um you're i'm everything you could never be as in like i am fully human i get to taste whiskey all the time like it's not ones and zeros to me yeah i have the memories that jacosta is still unearthing they're a part of my experience and i have access to them i look great in a mustache or you wear a beard i don't know but but then like and vision is the one who you know that we're we're moving back and forth between these vision sequences and these ultron jacosta sequences and they're all connected to the client but vision is the one elsewhere in the episode who was you know when the other the ai family like wait so how the fuck does this guy have the ability to put you into a binding contract because of the source code thing he's like i don't really know the answer to that yet right so this is a person i believe it's dummy dummy who's like it he whatever this person's involvement is it predates dark and banner which we get yes confirmation of because in the the couch conversation that you keep referencing jacosta is already like i don't want to sell the stark right right yes so like stark industry awards though tough tough the stark industry award is again i didn't do my due diligence looking at a side by side but isn't it a little nobel prizey like for sure like classic tony tony honestly classic tony tony calm down classic but yeah so how does this guy have the ability to do this thing to put these scrolls in that send both jacosta and vision on these he's burrowed into the very you know snow fortress level of their you know sub basement of their mind it is a gift all right snorkeling to your subconscious you already mentioned which is genuinely one of my favorite lines of the episode and in an episode full of bangers and then i'll still love you even if you try not to be deep quite good really fun so yeah we get a side quest complete with a video game as scrolled and then we get a side quest complete with a video game as scrolled and then both joe and vision accept and the promise that the client is making is to to vision you know they already said a tin man without a heart right like that's already a phrase they used i'll restore your heart to you your source code and then you can use it to help yada yada yada don't worry how but yada yada yada to fix lisa so that tommy won't be bereft yes okay so that's that's a promise to him to jacosta it's i'll unearth your memories and to both of them restore you to who you are right but we've got a heart provision uh a brain for jacosta we're back in wizard of oz territory which was such a through line of agatha yes i just thought was kind of fun and interesting yeah and you know they're they're using a lot of as you're saying the ozian you know man behind the curtain language for the client as well but then okay so we have these promises which you know never trust a promise from a guy calling himself the client who can just activate the pa system across magipur and cause a citywide blackout it's just a good rule of thumb i think it's a good rule of rule it's a good rule vision you know as we are on this path to the emotional breakthrough in terms of tommy billy wanda he is still not quite able to admit everything to himself but he does have the ability to like say this is going to be this is going to this is going to help you know tommy right lisa will be okay and then he will be okay and that's why i'm doing this thing that i know is probably not wise right to do but the promise motivated by whatever the client's actual agenda is of restoring something we don't know of restoring something to them the second that they have gone through these trials it's cuffs on tap the button on the ipad that says you know freeze all motor functions yes and they are thank you for that west world you're welcome so like that was part of the deal that they said from the beginning like if you do this what does he actually want them for i know i don't know it's concerning i'm concerned i'm he's the one who built jacosta her body in the first place her banging bot bod yes um and this is the consciousness of his former business partner in paramore lover a woman who grabbed some street treasure with him uh back when they lived in bushwick yeah that was such a perfect human like a human memory yes of like i remember where we got this chair and how we had to wrestle it into the elevator like yeah that was my sister has a couch that she and my brother-in-law and i like carried down yeah i'm not found we bought it off craigslist but but like when they first moved to san francisco they still have it we first moved to san francisco we carried it down i think it was like eight flights of stairs off an apartment it's a huge couch and so like we are the three of us forever bonded over that experience and she has taken really good care of it because it was a hard one piece of furniture and you remember those experiences you do i i like that i mean first of all you walk into the space and we as the viewer have the same reaction that the characters have which is like yeah and then i liked that it was just you know we get the building and heightening of the mysteries and the questions inside of the episode how is this space in our head yeah right that's fun but we're pairing we're not just asking more questions we're pairing that with those like sense memories and those triggers jacosta even still in the state of saying i don't know totally who i am or how i got to this place there are just those things that port you back to your human life right so that was really well done i thought on the like built the banging bod front really fun when we drive up to the this image of this mansion has occurred we have like we're seeing the painting we're flashing to it we're there at the beginning of the episode in this memory when we get to see the uh the like garden statue out front that is basically just the shape of the of jacosta and ultrons what are these called what are they are they like horns horn spike head tails there head yeah yes yes it is a very star wars head tail yeah kind of shape that you know little details like that that kind of connect to the story of the mansion and i think that's really cool and i think that's really the again broader there's a literal source code but what is the source code of all of this yeah it was just fun i think uh to to see all of those little aspects sprinkled across the episode all right as i as i intimated earlier i enjoyed paladin in this episode a proper use of paladin at last is what i'm calling this uh but when they said long time paladin believer over here that's not true the character not the plot no no you said you enjoyed him when he was funny and i agreed with you and now no but now they're just like that's all he is and that's true right that's true that is correct yes it's delightful when they said they needed someone with illegal government connections were you as worried as i was that it was sharon carter i knew a terror that i don't i don't frankly think people should have to feel when they're seeking pleasure on their television i mean i do think as soon as vision's like oh no not that i was like okay it's not sharon carter it's paladin but at first i was just like i can't believe there's like a three second window of yeah astonishing dismay when we're confronting the possibility of my definitely worse than when that eyeball gooped onto the nest by a lot um thankfully before long i was thinking about uh some some much stronger pop culture slow horses because paladin's plane is like basically that slow horses season six plane yeah it is is this the thing this is what planes look like now if you're doing secret stuff i guess or there's just like one prop plane that's passed from production to production that might be it this is correct if i'm wrong corbius glaive's glaive it is it's the glaive correct it's the glaive from so some you know we see it via flashback we see it via flashback pierce oh i forgot to ask paul bettany my favorite question which of his death was his favorite should we go get him yeah you think he's still here maybe but i got i was like oh we got to see i mean the glaive did not kill him but like you know the the yeah the glaive is back better than ever it was pretty funny paladin talking about that like i don't really fuck with the alien shit like the wakandan monarchy is probably very mad cosmic bullshit so my question was do you feel like that's uh just a fun paladin joke or is that a meta commentary on a certain phase of the the MCU. Why not both? Yeah. Why not both? Burn bridges with the Wakandan monarchy. Not something I would like to do. No, certainly not. I was glad to see the glaive for many reasons, but mostly because we've been tracking the moments across the season where vision is powered down. And of course, there are plenty of examples from other MCU properties, but none so infamous as the first glaiving. You never forget your first glaiving, first of all. Secondly, do you think Corvius glaive was irritated that he had to carry a glaive? Do you think he was like, why can't I have a scythe? And they were like, well, your name's glaive. And he's like, can I be Corvius scythe? I mean, yeah, what about a rebrand? Yeah. Corvius Javelin? Or could be the other side of it. He could be a complete fucking, the Loki seismic narcissist. He's like, I will only carry a weapon that happens to also be my name. I'm going to make glaives cool again. Great stuff. Do you think Proxima Midnight ever wishes that she had a glaive? And more screen time. Yeah. And actual use of Carrie Coon. I mean, Guild of Age season four this Sunday. Are you excited? You know, the answer is yes. And what a treat to be able to engage with you at last. I'm all caught up. I'm all caught up. I need all your takes. I know what happened to the Academy. I know what's going on at the Met. So much opera stuff. So much. And clocks. A lot of stuff about clocks. I mean, my guy, Jack. He's the best. Who speaks like a newsie. That's my favorite character. I mean, no surprise. No surprise at all. He's like, no surprise at all. These alarm clocks are for the newsies. I'm a big fan of Jack. All right. Do the Lisa stakes work for you? Okay. We already talked about the fact that this is actually about Tommy. And we don't trade lives in the MCU, as you know. But Vision for Lisa? So tough. Is that what we're doing? Oh, my God. Vision for Lisa? Okay. Here's my feeling on the Lisa stuff. It's pretty simple. I think that as a are we beat for beat and equal stakes and like gripping us as fully with the Lisa plot and we go back and she's got a ding, bang, boom, drone backpack thing? No, I'm not like affected or moved by that. But when Vision came and like did his like source code momo jumbo with her and her little robot arms were like, oh, and then I laughed. I thought it was great. However. Yeah. When Tommy. Do the accent. I can't. As you know, I'm just simply can't. I'm not capable of it. But when he just says, like, I love her. Yeah. I was I felt it. I was moved by that. And the fact that Vision before he can really admit to himself. Why he cares this much. Does not want Tommy to suffer the kind of loss and mourn in the way that has like completely shaped his own experience. So the Vision Tommy part of it worked less the Lisa part, I guess, continuing a five year tradition of the stuff with the dudes I was into. And you don't really care for women. The women are not welcome. Except for Jocasta and her banging bod. All right. Love her. How are you feeling about Paladin being able to see Edith? This is fast forwarding to the end. You know, he puts his glasses on, yada, yada, yada. And there she is. Total nonsense. Completely support it because. I also really enjoyed it. Yeah. I just think anything that allows more people to engage with Edith is just the point blank win. I mean, I do miss the handler, but like. Yes. Is there. Maybe we'll get a picture for Edith and Paladin. Here's what I'm looking forward to in the finale. OK. We only have an hour left. Well, this is a supersized episode. That's right. Who knows how. Maybe we have like. Is it possible we have like an hour and a half left? I don't know. Is there going to be a stinger at the end of Vision Quest? I have no idea. But if it were just the handler finally enjoying a splendid new abode, you know, after popping out for better digs, I'd be I'd be delighted. OK. I love her. I miss her. I do. I do. Perhaps helping someone return a garment that did not fit. As a longtime Paladin defender, self-proclaimed. There are dozens of us. How do you feel about us just sort of yada, yada, yadaing straight to redemption arc for him? You know, just directly to, I guess, good guy. It's not the best. I mean, but so sort of because he does still. It's his code. It's his oath, Mallory. What is he going to do? All this fucking bullshit. But Vision consented this time. It's true. And they have to bond a little bit more in the drive over. But yeah, so he's not like, let me help you get out of this and avoid this fate. Maybe my contract doesn't need to be my oath. He's still like, I'm going to drop you off at the door of the bad guy and then drive away and get literally bazooka'd. I don't think he's dead. He better fucking not be. No, he can't be. Yeah. We need our Paladin punch. Our little humor, our jokes. He can't be dead. There's no way. That would be sad. I would need a proper bit of mourning for Paladin. It's okay. He's a Manhunter, so he survived. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, I think we felt this was not the most definitely done part of the season. It just obviously wasn't. But I think we felt like we were heading here. And so being here feels appropriate and makes sense. Yeah. The path to it was not the best poetry that the show offered. So you poetry, are you ready to go to literary corner with me? Sure. Absolutely. I'd love to. Monster in the maze. Take me. Okay. Obviously, we're getting a lot of Wizard of Oz, Frankenstein, Pinocchio, et cetera, et cetera. We started the season talking about Theseus and the Minotaur and the maze, et cetera, et cetera, right? And what is this? Manor, this Horton, the Horton home, the Horton house, Horton Manor. I don't know. Yeah. Horton Manor sounds great. Sure. Yeah. Let's go with that. Why not? That Vision is just running around and around and around and circling, glitching back to the beginning and sort of like, what is that if not a maze? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. And so what does he find at the heart of the maze? And that's where the Minotaur sits. That's where the monster sits. So who's the monster at the center of the maze here? Is it Phineas Horton? Is it Jim? Is it Vision himself? Is it the need to look at yourself in the mirror? You know, like, what is the monster that he's grappling with here? And what is the threat that will lead him back out? Yeah. I mean, I think that when Jim pushes him on the, you know, and Vision's like, I'm not here for riddles, but that question that you mentioned earlier, the question of who is the Vision, right? Where is Vision? The fact that Phineas Horton is a character who says to Jim his creation, I will make you fearless and that will help people. And we see that that is, and this is something, of course, we just talked about quite a bit, while covering Lanterns, a failure to engage with what makes people people and allows them to feel and connect with each other in a way that makes life worth living. So it is the refusal to give himself over to that that is the last, that's the big boss that Vision has to beat. Now, I guess we're heading into a finale where there is inside of a comic book show still an actual big boss who we have to face. He's got a mustache. But that's why I think we, yeah, exactly. That's, it's very, very villainy. Very villainy mustache. But this is why we loved this episode is because the question of the monster within that you have to confront and find a way to best in order to become your full self. And then also the way the show has reinforced that the work won't stop there. This is why this trilogy has been really good. And this is why I think, like I said at the beginning, this episode felt very much of a piece with what this trilogy has been interested in exploring. Would you say conflict inside of the human heart is the only thing worth making a Disney Plus show about? It's the only thing worth writing streaming TV about? Okay. Before we get to, you know, the Jim Finneas Vision and Vision and Vision scene, we get the remnant of Ultron still within Vision. So despite the fact that he set Ultron free into where, Mallory? The internet? They're in the internet. There's still a remnant of him kicking around. No Jarvis remnant kicking around? I mean, just Ultron, just extra sticky, you know? He advises Vision to let Tommy watch WandaVision. It's a good show. And I'm glad, you know, Vision listened to him. And we get the, if you're going through hell, keep going idea, which will be repeated. Guess what? James Spader's good at everything he does. And I thought this was good. And I liked being in the- It's been so amazing. I know. And I liked being in the attic, stripped of everything. You know, and, and the, that, you know, he, he makes the commentary. I'm sure this was filmed before a live studio audience. It sounds canned, but like that hellish disorienting experience of like the canned laughter while Vision is grappling with something quite serious. And then Ultron himself, like actually like laughing out loud at something that's happening on the screen while Vision is trying to like process some complex emotions, but just like sort of how hellish nightmarish disorient, disorienting, like that whole setup is, I thought was really good. Yeah. I, I really, no surprise because I think I've liked almost every single Ultron scene, really liked that scene. And I thought it was also to me a more nimble and effective version of something that the show has obviously been interested in doing, which is resurfacing a prior line when he says, you know, because family is forever in that exchange, it is there intentionally to try to work and manipulate and wound and also guide and lead Vision. So like it is, uh, it's function and utility and intention is so clear there. in a way that it's like, of course it should be there. And that hasn't always been the case elsewhere. How do you feel about it being used then like earnestly at the end of the Tommy letter? Good, but in a way that makes me more annoyed than I even previously had been by some of the other deployments, because it's like the moments where it lands and it counts, I think can stand on their own and we don't need all of the reminders to get us there. I think the reason it works in the Tommy letter is because that earnestness at that point is so, it was the point for Vision to be able to earn that and to lean into it and to allow himself to give himself over to the, oh, well, the ship of Theseus, like neither is the true ship, both is the true ship. No, we're all the same. It's all me and it always has been. And so then of course, these things that this character has been a part of, why wouldn't I say them? That's my life. Yeah. Like it feels like that's the thesis of the show and the point of the show at that point. So that worked for me. I also, in the Ultron scene, you know, we'll talk about this with Paul Bettany later today, but that like, what scares me most is that I, what scares me most is that I spared you and not out of mercy, but out of some pathetic need. When Vision says that to Ultron in that scene, I just loved that because, you know, there's this judgment and there's this rebuke, but also this draw that is so like a son to a father, even a bad dad. And, you know, and the, by extension, like the need and the fear of what part of that person, is in you and overall in this episode, the question of like, you know, he was the first of us, but also who are all the other, how do all those branches on that tree, that family tree still involve each other? Who, like a very Jerry Springer, who is the father, there's just like nine different answers to that, you know, which Paul Bettany will address later. Okay. Vision v. Vision. Yeah. We already, we, you know, this is a remix of something we already liked before, which is, you know, Red Vision v. Well, I guess this is Red Vision versus Hex Vision. This is original Vision. Because when he's talking to White Vision in this sequence, he's like, you are me. You're also the me that Wanda created. That's right. So he's speaking as if he is original Vision. So this is different from Hex Vision and White Vision, who were shipathesing it up in the end of WandaVision. So your lack of compassion is beneath me. So good. Sick burn. Yeah. My favorite line though, you put me on a pedestal, but not to honor me. Right? Because White Vision says, this thing that he said previously, which is like, who could ever love as well as you? Like, well, you know, how could I ever possibly live up to this paragon of humanity and emotionality that you are? And original Vision is basically like, that's a bucking bullshit. Yeah. That you're using to protect yourself from something. The next thing that he says, to spare yourself the effort of the climb. Yeah. Ooh, that like gave me a chill. That's the good shit right there. And like, again, that is, that is a really human thing. Yeah. Like it's hard to do the work. It's hard to acknowledge the things that you're afraid of and that are inside of you. I thought that was really, really wonderful. And I loved the way that blended with what you were just setting up, like the different visions, this, yeah, okay, he unlocked your memories, but he also gave you his own. And we had been talking at the beginning of the season and in our WandaVision revisited pod as well about like, okay, we understand why this vision, where we find him in this show, like, you know, the point like this is, okay, that's not me. It's a different character. That's, that's the story. Yeah. But that for us as viewers, we're like, okay, wait, but not only do we see the connection between original vision and this, this vision. Yeah. The, the hex vision who was born out of Wanda's memories, those memories are of the time she shared with original vision. And so they're all connected in a way that has been clear to us, watching the character's journey of accepting that and not just accepting and acknowledging it, but then finally being able to embrace it was, was really, really sad. It was really satisfying, I thought. Something I loved about, on that note, in terms of like how Wanda created the hex vision, something I loved in later in the letter that vision leaves for Tommy, when he describes the hex WandaVision, right? And he says, dreamed into existence by the hopes your mother and I once shared. Yes. I cried. Yeah. You know, Wanda has been vilified, sometimes unfairly, sometimes called out for her bullshit in a way that she deserves to be. But like, this is the most compassionate, this is the most compassionate interpretation of what she did here. And I think we can hold that compassion for Wanda while also saying, hey, maybe don't enslave a town while you're doing that. But I thought that was just like really a beautiful sort of description of what happened. I agree. It hit me hard too. And I think also the fact that there was a partnership in that line, right? The idea that, because so much of it is what did Wanda do? And it's like, well, this thing that happened definitionally, stems from a life shared, right? And so like, how can you- Why is she in Westview? Because you bought property in Westview, you know? Yeah, so the idea that like, that's what the whole story has been about is like when someone is gone, how are they still there and a part of your life? And can you find peace and comfort in that eventually? Can you work to that place? It's a really hard thing to do. Like, that's not how grief goes for everybody, right? And so I thought that was just such a, it's part of vision's journey about saying, I am, that's all me. And it's so effective on that front. But also like, there was such a generosity and a grace to it. Yeah, that was just lovely. That I feel like Wanda deserves more of, frankly, in the world. Vision versus Phineas and Jim. This is a diabolically good sequence of television. Just amazing. The emotionality, the burning motif. We get, in terms of like, echo lines, Jim says, he wasn't my father, he was my something. Yeah. And earlier, Tommy says, I don't know what you are, but you're my something. I'm not going to leave you, right? And so that's a line repetition thing that I actually quite liked. It sort of stops vision in his tracks here as he's contemplating, like, what does it mean to be a father? And does it have to be like, you know, as strict a definition as I'm thinking of? Or can it just be something else? Can it be connection? Is that the way in which Ultron is my father? You know, like, is there a way in which Ultron is my father? Like, Jim is my grandfather. Phineas Wharton is my great-grandfather. However, again, you want to draw that family tree, but it's all connected. We're all wearing the same face. They sure are. You want a face of this. I love the design on Jim. I thought the de-aging really worked for me. There's a moment when he, like, sits down and sort of knocks his hand on his thigh and you hear a nice clang. That's right. I just thought this was really. And, like, to compare this reality of Jim to, first of all, like, when we first see him and he's actively burning, I think that's, like, a really incredibly cool visual. And then to, like, sort of divest himself of the flame and then we get Paul Bettany's beautifully de-aged face. And then to compare that to the, like, maquette that Horton was looking at earlier when he was, like, thinking about designing him and compare it to, like, the other versions of him that we've seen in portraiture or on display and other, you know, Marvel properties. Et cetera, et cetera. I just thought all of this came together, like, really beautifully in a really fun and satisfying way. I thought this was awesome. I really, really loved it. I thought that. I mean, all the performances across these scenes, all of the different Bettany, Vision, Jim, Phineas performances that we got were great. I really. I just thought the Jim stuff was gobsmacking. I agree, but I think also just the Horton. Like, Horton at his painting, Horton not, like, really looking up much from his painting, this sort of thing. This sort of still snide sort of way in which he's not taking responsibility for what he did with Jim. He's like, the way I built you meant lives were saved and that was worth something, you know? And, you know, we were never really that good at talking. Yeah. I burned with him. Dylan fan, I guess. Mallory's like, it me, it me. I am the Vision. Truly, truly, truly. We get the, if I lost Lisa, I would lose myself, Tommy says, but in a Scottish accent. And Vision, in the culmination of his psychotherapy session with Jim, says, I lost Billy, I lost Tommy. Oh, my God. I lost Wanda. And that that, the way that he describes that is a wound too deep and severe, a pain too big, a thing that no one should have to suffer through, which. That cannot heal. And, yeah, I. So, what I really loved about that, like, little Tommy moment is that we have these. We do have these cautionary tales, but also then these relatable human aspects of them. So, like, you could look at what Phineas has done with Jim and say, wrong, bad. You had your kid right there. You could have loved her. You recreated your son's essence into this mechanical, synthetic being and told him, don't feel a thing. And then he did. Very strongly. Felt too much, right? Felt to death. Relatable. There's a version. Truly. There's a version of the show where Tommy says. Jim's an empath. It's tough. Oh, my God. It's tougher as empaths out there. I'm not an empath. I think you are. You're very attuned to other people and what they're going through. I think you are. I think people who claim to be empaths, I have some stumble blocks around them. Any man who needs to say hi. Say he's the king. The king. That's your king. But, like, there's a version of the show where Tommy says something like that and it is we have been based basically primed and programmed to just feel terror for him right or also if I lost Lisa I would lose myself as very feels very like codependent or yeah like that or the the cautionary tale of how when we cannot cope with the the the person who meant so much to us not being there what do we do we wreak some sort of like evil or havoc into the world but I do like that I like that Ultron's like hopefully Tommy takes a different tack than his parents took you know the part of the the family tree and these connections and these ties across time and across manifestations is are we able to learn from the things that we ourselves have suffered through but also the things that we've witnessed in other people you know and so like I feel like when when Vision gives the letter to Tommy and the the sword files the the WandaVision scenes it's the acknowledgement and recognition that he is willing to be that person for Tommy and have Tommy be the person for him. That their father and son that their family but it's also like an acknowledgement that you have to be able to look at the thing that happened in order to know how to live your own life right like you don't live your life in the vacuum of some sort of in the in the blank white mind palace like you don't actually right. Jocasta. Yeah Jocasta. Get some set deck in there baby. Yeah Jim the Jim stuff I don't know the like you are healed and I envy you I just thought was so. So so so beautiful and so good and like the idea that you're a real boy now yeah and like Jim who doesn't have that and couldn't have it really fully like knows that the capacity to care and thus to miss what you lose if you cared about it in the first place is what it what it what it means to be alive. Would you say it's love persevering? I would. The the physical manifestation of the source code right which becomes the sort of like new mind stone for this vision I thought was really good. It's funny. So I I think we didn't get to this last part but I had meant to say last episode the triangular shape when the five person firm is like looking up at all of their boards and we really see it I was like you know what it really was making me think about Tony and Iron Man 2 and there's the triangle the new element I don't know if there if that there was anything about that that was intentional or if it was all like the the forehead gem plate shape but I did kind of like that it was just one more way to make us think of to the the many fathers point all of the different little influences. There speaking of some set deck for Jocasta yeah let's go to a loft in Bushwick great I'd love to uh so as we mentioned like Ultron and Vision are on a parallel journey to find out that they are imitations of a sort uh wearing other people's faces not even the Jocasta nickname is original to Ultra which seemed like especially galling among the very various galling things he was just sort of like and I just think Spader's reaction like every time you learn something else and like especially when you're like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like especially when he hears his own voice you know Fridays has to like sort of yeah put a hat on a hat and say it's you know like whatever okay but like his reaction to hearing his own voice come from the other room after all of this sort of like two glasses a mysterious figure on the television that we can't see all of I'm not the painter someone else is the painter in here you know all all of this build up uh and but then just for him to hear his own voice come out of someone else and but then on the painting front it's like what is this like it's like it's like it's like it's like this why he's so drawn to art and to artistic expression in that form and then like so what is the why is he yeah why is he wearing this guy's face what is the answer that's gonna be well that he's some sort of like the way in which Edith is sort of like copied out of their human avatar but like but how how I am curious to see I think the show is at the point now where it will land the emotional storylines how will it land logistically well I think well what what Friday said when she it's buried in our source code and just sort of like wiped along her forearm and there it came so like I think we can get we do a lot with just buried in the source code yeah don't you think yeah I'm I'm curious to see if there's an explanation for like again the mystery phantom element of this person and how no one was able to be like that's a face that we should dig up yeah for frankly for vision too yeah interesting if this is like a block that was sort of implanted or something like that I mean like certainly you know I don't know if it's going to be or digitally erased from Jocasta you know holes in Jocasta's memory yeah once again a very west world concept of sort of like what's been digitally altered inside of you but in terms of vision all the rest and maybe the world in general I don't know like how reclusive is his mustachioed man like a rhinestone cowboy plays Glenn Campbell dad rock continues the pace just real delightful real good stuff here we also got like a dream on the on the phonograph um yes spark of life we gave it fire and that phonograph was in the law yeah and the manse yeah and the portraiture yeah was in the loft and in the manse the horton manor yeah but it was there before it's not just there now it's there in 39 yeah and then it ends up in that well I think that's the like the the code from the book like that's the that's the connective link is like sort of it all goes back to this original code that Phineas Horton was building and is the fact that it is in this episode that like he's sort of like he's sort of like he's sort of like sold the estate there to open up like so this could be anyone who has no connection to the family because all this stuff was like acquired or is this gonna is this guy gonna be a part of that family what do you think right is he again the grandson yeah and that's how he got however math works however many how did the code book right get to the team yeah because the team has the code yeah and the fact that the record player is there and all these things are there it's like yeah the phonograph yeah yeah that's interesting that is interesting okay is Friday okay I would guess yes yeah like Ultron revealed that he knew that she was there the whole time so if he wanted to like eliminate her he could have done it earlier he has this earlier conversation with her where he's like television the old man isn't as bad as all that so Ultron's desire to be thought of as like well by his quote-unquote son or whatever but yeah the the push over the balcony which is you know it's you or something like that feels real like I pushed you to save you kind of moment because yeah I think so over and over and over and over and over in visions home yes he says this place is no longer a sanctuary for you to the other AIs right right as far as I know they're still inside of him uh when he gets kidnapped raising but um but this idea of of Ultron like pushing Friday out either to like deliver I mean I guess she's in the internet now aren't they always aren't they always in the internet as has been the case for me the entire season the moments in this episode where Ultron is like oh my god Like, let me tell you why I'm not bad. I'm on my guard with him. And the moments where he does something seemingly very nefarious, I'm like, I still think this is going to end with Ultron being okay. Like, when he tells Friday, you know, Jocasta, she's super hot and I'm really, really into her, but her plan, I'm not so sure. In elegant thoughts. I'm not so sure. Am I going to have to break her heart by, you know, betraying her? Maybe. Right. Right. You know, I believe that he's, like, really into her and also, like, killing everyone. I'm not so sure. But, well. Remember the art. Yeah. He's all in favor of killing people. That's his signature move. But the coin flip. But the artists. The coin flip, you know. What side's the coin flip? The musicians. And that's, you know, when he was saying that to Friday, it's like. The people who make television. The way that Jocasta wants to do it, maybe not for him. But that doesn't mean he's definitely team Vision. Like, Ultron's side is always his own. Team Ultron, yeah. Yeah, but so, like, can there be a common cause? What I might think, among the things I'm most interested in. Heading into the finale. Is because we had. I can't remember what episode it was. I guess it was right when Jocasta entered the story. So, maybe episode four. Vision was like. Let's figure out how to. It's. Not all hope is lost. We can help this person. Let's figure out what's going on. Oh. So, is the. Can there be common cause? It's at the gala when he's like. Yeah. Ultron, don't kill her. Yeah. And Ultron's like. Have you seen her bod? I would not. I wouldn't dare. I would not dare. She's going to teach me what whiskey tastes like. And then we're going to fuck. So, yeah. Like, I think, obviously, a lot of the season has been oriented around the question of can it be possible for Ultron and Vision to unite? But also now, like, why should the finale. I don't want the finale to be Ultron choosing between Jocasta and Vision. I want it to. Is there a common cause for all of them, potentially, in the pursuit of like. Is the enemy of my enemy. Is my friend. And so, like, if the mustachioed twirling villain played by James Spader is the enemy, can we all be on the other side together? What if that guy ends up being fine? What if he's like a great hang? I think answering the door. With the gun cocked. And then just blowing up a truck is. I guess the bazooka thing was. Yeah. It's tough. Was not great. Tough to come back from. Wasn't great. Okay. Tommy finally watches WandaVision. We've already kind of talked about this. But anything else you want to say about that note? It was just, like, really sweet. It was really touching. It was really sweet. You know, I. Part of me, I guess, kind of, like, wished that we could have seen them together in this moment. But this actually felt so right. Because Vision. Has made this huge leap in this episode. First of all, he's on the clock. He's got shit to do. Right? He's got to be delivered to the client. But also, like, this felt really true to life to me, too. That you're finally ready to, like, acknowledge something. But it's still. You know, there's, like, a little bit of a distance when you say it to the other person. Also, you know, iPad kids. Isn't everyone an iPad kid these days? No. But then, yeah. So, the panic when Tommy realizes, like. Because he's reading it. And he's seeing these clips of WandaVision. Too late, Tommy. I know. It's like, you should. You can feel it. The plane's not moving. I think. Also, WandaVision was nine episodes. Like, how long was he sitting at that iPad? How long is this drive to the manor outside of London? But the panic. So, like, Tommy is presumably heading to find Vision. He's not just going to go back in and say, like, what's in the minibar on the stealth plane. He's like, you kind of have the finale without me. Exactly. Like that. Just like that. Okay, great. It's exactly like that. It's perfect. Yeah, exactly like that. I don't know. Will Lisa be involved? My apologies. Will her extra arms be involved? Great question. I mean. Will Dummy and you be there? Will Edith be there? Will Friday get out of the internet in time? Will Billy be there? That's my big question. I think. Billy gets a number of mentions in this episode. Billy showing up for the finale. I have to be honest. I am astonished we've not seen Billy yet. Other than in, you know, the flashbacks and the scenes from WandaVision. When we're. Great Inception-y, just show the back of the kids. The cute little, very recognizable outfits running down the hall. That was great. I really, I would have put money on Billy appearing in the series by this point. So the fact that that hasn't. Happened. On the one hand, I'm like, is it. I still, I think there's no way that it doesn't. So it just, we only have one episode left. It makes it like a finale block. I just think they've said Billy too many times. Right. And especially when it's like, what have you lost when you started with Billy? He thinks Billy's not. Yeah, he thinks Billy's dead. So the idea that they would realize that's not true feels like kind of essential. Again, it feels like one of the AIs could have done a quick Google search. What are they, really, what are they doing? Like, I get that it's fun to fall through the skylight and to sing Danny Boy. I mean, that was a tender moment. But like, you know, guys, we're not actually doing a very good job of fact-finding. No. They didn't spot that Ultron's face belonged to a fairly public person, it seems, who had a long history of being a part of this award-winning duo. Mr. Dr. Joe. Yeah. At no point were they like, Phineas Horton, this guy who constantly comes up among the Sith, like, look, the bears are shocking resemblance. There's no archival photo of Phineas Horton. Or where they're like. Like, that's your fucking face? Yeah. And then, yeah, there's no, there's no Billy, and especially because of the Agatha tie. Yeah, did you guys not watch Agatha? What are they doing if not watching Agatha? It's a great show. It's a great show. It's a great show. Okay. So, yeah, I feel like Billy showing up is a must. Will Agatha be there, though? I don't know. Because they went on their little, like, let's go find Tommy quest together. I know. Catherine Han's shooting Tangled. Do you think she was available? Oh, yeah, good point. I mean, she was at D23, wasn't she? She was, remember? Yeah, that was great. The crowd went nuts. That was a wonderful moment. Absolutely a wonderful moment. Anything else before we go to our conversation with Paul Bettany? I don't think so. You know, I hope Paladin's okay. I guess that's most top of mind for me. He's fine. Hope Paladin's okay. Yeah, I agree with you. I think Friday is probably fine. Wouldn't it be great if, like, Edith's like, Friday, you're brave, and then she just does? That's it. Sorry for talking shit. Shit about the Avengers. Like, oh, now you're dead. That would be tough. The Friday, your brave arc has been not my favorite. It's not the strongest thing. I would like the finale to be real Edith-centric. That's what I would like. What if it's just an Edith side quest? That'd be great. Well, like, the event, it's like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, like, the events of the finale are sort of happening in the background. Theater of the Absurd. Here in the Mission Quest finale. Why not? That would be great. Oh, man. Is that what Paul Bettany teased about the finale? Maybe. Something to think about. Maybe. Should we go to that conversation? What do you think? Let's do it. All right. Let's go now to our conversation with Paul Bettany. Have you heard of him? Blogs. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. The Home Depot has everything you need to launch your holiday season in style. 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Get professionally installed systems you can access from the ADT Plus app. Plus, reps on call 24-7 at the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. You deserve cozy time at home. ADT will keep an eye out. When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com today. What an absolute thrill. To have Paul Bettany here in the house of art today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's our pleasure. It's such a treat for us to be able to talk to you about not only the series, but episode seven, which was such a wonderful episode of television. And there's a lot to dive into. We want to start with the many different characters that you got to play in this episode. Because one of the great moments, not just for fans of the MCU, but on the internet. One of the great moments of life on the internet was during the WandaVision run when you teased that you were going to get to play. Share the screen, inhabit a moment with an actor you've always wanted to work with. And it ended up being you. This was just a great moment on the internet. It set me down a rabbit hole. Joanna was like doing all sorts of blogging and research. That's hilarious. I didn't think that was going to blow up the way it did. It was just a silly joke, really, for me and the director and the writer. And so stupid. And then people really got. Oh, yes. I wonder how disappointed people probably are. Not disappointed at all. I mean, we love it. We love that scene. Delighted. And it's still bearing fruit to this day. And then now in this season, you get to do this again. In episode seven, you get to play many versions of Vision. You get to play Phineas and you get to play Jim. So there's a fun meta aspect of this that we wanted to ask you about. Because, of course, the characters are teaching each other things. They're learning from each other. This is part of the core text here. But you got to learn a thing or two. Yes. From the other performers in that mansion. What did you teach yourself? You know, I was blessed to have. Yet again, a stuntman who has done some acting. And he was amazing and learned all of those. I think it was a two or three day shoot. Because, obviously, we've got to cover me in different makeup. And, you know, it takes a while. And he was so game. And he learned all of the lines. And so I was actually able to play the scenes with somebody. Yeah. And. And it was a really important moment for me that we worked on for a long time with Terry. Because the remit from Kevin was how do we get cool white vision to warm red vision in this TV show. And I wanted his powers to come to their fruition as he accepted. Right. And I wanted his powers to come to their fruition as he accepted who he is. And the truth of the terrible things that have happened to him from that acceptance comes. Of knowing yourself comes real power. Was the idea that I was wanting Terry to get on board with. And he really, really did. And I think he wrote an extraordinary scene. And he shot the hell out of it. And he's amazing. And he's a really good director. And there was a moment we had shot it. And I felt like we were. We'd shot, I guess, the moment where I accept who I am. And it's kind of emotional. And I was like, yeah, I don't really want to go again, Terry. And he was like. He went, okay, yeah, totally. And he gave me sort of five minutes. And he went, you know, we do have a bit more time. You want to give me one more? One more take. And it was the one he used. So all power to him as a director. I love hearing the way in which you collaborated with Terry. Sort of you had your ideas of what you wanted for Vision. And Terry was at the helm of the show. You've played Vision for so long. How much do you feel like you had input into the shape of this season? Lots. I mean, and it's always felt collaborative at Marvel. You know, I've said this before. But I think it's tempting to think of them as a sort of behemoth, you know, monster churning out product. And they're actually quite boutique. And then there are only a few people that you're talking to about these things. And we had five years. So there were lots of ideas that came and went. And pitches where I pushed back and said, I just don't think this is it. And. To Kevin's credit, he said, Paul's right. And let's start again. And then I met with Terry and we immediately clicked. I have enormous respect for his previous work. And we felt really aligned. We knew there was going to be a Tommy. Yeah. And I really wanted to make a story about fathers and sons. Yeah. And as a sort of counter-programming thing, man, energy in a really positive way because you know there's not a lot of it you know so um and he felt really aligned on that and then when he said let's what about we get ultron in i knew he had it absolutely because now we had grandfather father and son yeah and we could do a sort of show about intergenerational trauma but with robots and lasers and and fighting which is fun and i think the marvel what marvel does well is when it talks about big themes but in a really broad and inviting um way yeah yeah can i ask you a quick follow-up about that um if i'm reading the tea leaves of a an interview and you and jane did at d23 um where you were dropping similar hints about him finally having scene partners that were on his level sounds like the scene that we got in a previous episode with all the ultrons was your idea that you pitch oh yeah that's true yeah i mean i didn't write that thing i you know terry wrote it but i i i called him up i said i i had this idea and i think it's a really good one and i think you should do it you should have edith say when we're trapped in the lost say i wonder what ultron's doing down there and we've seen that vision has chosen to to um surround himself with sort of ais that have differing personalities that can challenge him and question him and and and help him understand the world and i thought it would be really funny if ultron had just chosen to have copies of himself and terry there was no room to do it but terry pitched a story about him and i think it's a really good one and i think it's a really good one and i think it's a really good one and i think it's a really good one and i think it's a really good it to um to james there and james was so into it but we we made time to shoot it really quickly it's great it's one of our favorite scenes so funny and the the extra touch of the the eye ultron book yes ultron prime is holding there just just delicious i mean sticking with ultron for a minute because it's been so fun for us to uh be back with ultron and inside of this vision ultron dynamic which was just you know from the the first moment really rooted in all of these deep philosophical and existential questions not only about their respective identities but the nature of humanity and so you know you were just mentioning uh the the the male energy and fathers and sons and the way that this like family trauma the show is interrogating the fact that that moves in all directions like obviously a lot of this is about vision and and tommy and the the future and what's next right but kind of definitionally that's rooted in what vision is willing or not willing to look at about where he came from what influenced how he got there so this idea of uh ultron as father i have tried very hard throughout our run of covering this show to get peepaw to stick on the pod joanna won't allow it i think that peepaw is wonderful and the second i heard ultron say it i thought it should be house of our canon on this podcast um that moment in episode seven when vision said you know spared you not out of mercy but out of some pathetic need i mean if that's not the most like daddy issues thing that i've ever heard right so through seven episodes as vision has made this massive emotional breakthrough and has been able to finally say to tommy yes i'll call you tommy not thomas i love you what is vision willing to look at from ultron in that inheritance and actually accept and embrace yeah it's i mean it's complicated right because he's sort of has so many fathers you know right you could argue that stark is his father that he's part jarvis that he's you know but he absolutely is part ultron and um and so yeah it's it's complicated but i'm so glad that you picked up on the thomas thing i i could because you know for me it's over the year i know it's a silly robot but over the years i have met fans and i can't dismiss what the character has meant to them and lines like what is grief all of that and it took me a while to recognize who the character is for and it was really in the process of meeting fans that i i understood him and and what the contract what he meant to people and therefore what the contract between vision and his audience is and i i also realized that they were me when i was the people i was meeting with me when i was young and um i felt like an outsider and was bullied at school and and felt like there wasn't going to be a place for them in the adult world and and were wrestling with the idea of who they and are wrestling with the idea of who they are going to become they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business they're in the business of self-discovery and and they have a dizzying array of choices in this modern world about who they can be and i realized that vision always needs to be in a state of self-discovery if he's going to honor that contract and so that moment was really the moment in the pool with tommy was really important to me where he says i i haven't listened to you well enough you've been telling me but i i haven't listened to you well enough you've been telling me but i haven't listened to you well enough i just haven't been listening and you are who you think you are i i just wanted that to land for those fans that you are you are who you think you are and and um uh yeah so that's why that's i think that's why i felt very involved from the beginning in in um shaping it with terry and that's not i'm not i hope i'm not sort of you know um suggesting some sort of massive land grab it really wasn't like that it was about themes and ideas and he i mean he and his amazing writers room did the writing and um uh but the themes and ideas were really important to me i mean it's clear that vision means so much you've been playing him for so long um and i know your time in the mcu predates uh the the vision wanda relationship but in this episode in episode seven the i lost wanda moment which is just so devastating and then i was just thinking about you paul bettany as the actor and lizzie olsen as an acting partner and what was it like for you to do this season without this person who's been your acting partner for so much of vision's story yeah i mean she's an amazing she's amazing actor and she is an amazing scene partner and an amazing colleague you know she is so prepared so fastidious so energetic and never fucking late and i love that and um and so yeah that part of it was sad but i'd sort of i'd sort of uh negotiated that with myself and actually wonder is is the whole way through the series yeah it's really about that you know and um about the acceptance of of the loss of that and um so she didn't in that way emotionally she didn't feel absent at all as a character you know but it was i missed hanging out with her but then i got to hang out with jane spader and he's a great hang is he also on time is he also punctual oh okay i know can't have everything it'll be everything i i want to stick with that idea of the the way that wanda is is presence even in absence um in in the seventh episode but just the whole season like i was really really struck by we get this insight uh the the phineas horton jim opening to episode seven and then of course we're with phineas and we're with with jim uh at the end of the episode but the idea that phineas is crafting jim not only because he is himself grieving his son but that he that he is seeking to create a being who will not feel who will be fearless who will not know the grief that has defined his entire life and i loved it not only because you know vision has been talking across the season about the idea of like the family tree right he looks up what you see i see a family tree so the idea of evolution and connection and what is kind of fixed and constant as part of the artificial or human experience what is unique to you um the idea that creation in these stories for wanda with the hacks for phineas with jim creation is connected to grief when you make something and you put it in the world it stems from your loss but maybe the thing that you're making you're saying i don't want you to feel this pain so i just found it to be so um i don't know like kind of a full circle simultaneously full circle in a way that felt like we got closure but also like it's propelling us into the idea that you were talking about a few minutes ago progress isn't linear you don't stop learning lessons when vision was basically on the receiving end of the insight he had previously provided to wanda in the what is grief scene and he hears from jim i envy you like this thing that you're feeling this hurt this pain i wish i had that because it would mean that i was alive that i was connected to the people i didn't want to lose so why did that feel so crucial not only for visions ark inside of the season but for the examination of like the nature of humanity that you don't just learn something once yourself or share it with somebody once you're always on the pursuit of that kind of insight that's a really great analysis and i would go further to say you know the one's motivations for for writing i'm sure for terry and for me as an actor the sort of early motivations were really about doing being able to do something with the bad things that have happened being able to make something positive out of it even if it's as simple as 30 years later 35 years later i can be on a set and contact something in my memory that i can choose at that point in time to be able to do something with the bad things that have happened being able to make something positive out of it even if it's as simple as 30 years later 35 years later i can be on a set and contact something in my memory that i can choose at that point in time to be able to do something with the bad things that have happened that point to attach feelings to and out of a bad thing try to be a part of making something that might um that create something that might be uh moving to people and make people feel again i know it's a silly robot i'm not stupid but but make some people feel like they can adhere themselves to the surface of the earth a little bit a little bit easier somehow because there's there's somebody else going through the wrestling with the things that they're wrestling with and you know i'm not an elitist about these things and i i meet i meet people who have had the grief line tattooed on them you know and it's it's who have lost parents and you know loved ones and it and it that line which i didn't write which the camera's not even on my face it's on it's on lizzie receiving it um so i'm not claiming any uh but i was a part of of a thing that that um i've witnessed has helped people and that's that's lovely so that's actually when i really started feeling um there was a responsibility in this show beyond just making an effort because people whether some people are taking it seriously or not doesn't matter there are people that are taking it seriously and it's it's important to them so yeah i wanted to honor uh what i thought those fans are coming to my shop for you know yeah um i i loved hearing you sort of before the season start talk about um the pinocchio or frankenstein approach to sort of this act of creating life um or artificial life creation and who am i where did i come from am i a real boy all of these sort of things but to find out in this episode that you're also playing phineas horton who is the sort of geppetto frankenstein figure as well who does not seem to care that he has a living daughter tough one uh tough tough for his daughter um but i don't know how are you then thinking about that binary knowing that you get to play the creation and the creator inside of the show i know it's a really fun idea that um terry had late on was to have me play that that part i loved the idea you know that the the dna is the dna you know um in the same way that we see for edith or friday or you know um and so i kind of i loved that notion yeah the idea of like the human avatar and the source code and the way that that's you know we're so centered in vision's journey but the we have we've we've become just edith oh we're huge yeah loving the performance loving the character love emily so much so the way that every character has gotten a version of that experience has been really great i i'm curious like we've we've talked uh rightly i think a lot about grief and how centered that is in the the examination the story but hearing you talk a few minutes ago about like this five-year process and the things over the course of um figuring out what the show was gonna was gonna be that maybe uh shifted out of it or that moved more more centrally to the fore was there something other than grief that felt to you like this is the thing if we're talking about what it means to be human and form connections to other people that we've got to have in here because i have i have loved the way that um self-delusion and denial have been so present in the season because that just strikes me as the most relatable content right like i am lying trust and truth are very present in the season it's a lot about are we lying to other people can we trust what we're saying and i think that's a really good point i think that's a really good point i think that's what ultron's saying but the real thing is like are you lying to yourself 100 so what what aspect of just that question when we think what does it mean to be human which aspect of that when you guys were crafting the show over half a decade did you feel like had to be there right up top with with grief i think um i think maybe that's more of a question for terry metallis um because he what whilst hearing what i wanted the show to be about and agreeing with a lot of it you know had his own ideas of what the the the show could also um tackle in a in a really fun way but i think you've identified identified something um really important which is um it is it is about lying to yourself i mean look we were talking about being able to white vision has had his memories restored yeah but he can't or seems to be able to seems unwilling to attach feelings to them right and that's a really human thing i do it all of the time and it would be inappropriate if i wasn't able to compartmentalize like that if every time i did think of you know a sad time in my life i was just bereft and it would be um i wouldn't be able to move around in the world and be a parent and you know all of those things but the the acceptance i really i mean i guess i'm going back to the thing that i was saying if we are made up of all of these moments good and bad and they form your identity true power is not lying to yourself and knowing who you are um so so that beyond grief was for me the most important aspect was he should become his most powerful self when he has seen himself and accepted himself and terry put a literal mirror right there in that literal mirror and we and we did the famous uh even even uh even robots can cry yeah panel that's right um i wanted to ask you about um you know you mentioned being a dad you've talked about that a lot in the show and i'm curious as a for to encounter a young actor like rory who's at the beginning of his career um does that kick up a paternal instinct in you what is it like to to work with someone who's just starting out who is so incredible in this show which i think is amazing rory i knew it was going to be rory when he walked in the door yeah he just shines it's great the kid just shines i mean he's in in that in that way in the sort of shining way he reminds me of when i met heath just can't take your eyes off him he's just full of joy and shawada even and and rory's like that so he's very easy to love you know he's very easy to want to help and wish good things for and he is um so prepared i i often work with um when i work with younger actors i'm always surprised when i look down the makeup bus and i i see them learning their lines and i think oh no oh no and then i get to the studio i get on the stage and the young actor inevitably says i've had an idea and i think yeah on the fucking golf cart you had an idea and now we're all gonna have to sit here this crew of a hundred and whatever people gonna have to sit there and listen to your stupid half-baked idea that happened five minutes ago and with rory he just couldn't be accused of that he he he knew his lines he'd had thoughts he'd had ideas about how he wanted the scene to be and um and now we can get somewhere you know because i feel like some people don't learn their lines because they want it to feel real or something and i'm like wait what isn't that the sort of very baseline like you could put a monkey in front of a camera and it's gonna look real like you know i'm not really interested in real well when i mean when you talk about preparedness like how much preparation do you do like what's your you don't have to tell me your whole process but sort of when you say prepared for yourself what does that mean uh well i think part of it comes from my uh dyslexia and so i i when i used to audition i would pretend to read or when i was at read-throughs i would pretend to read my lines but i actually knew them and so uh yeah i i i know the whole i know the whole episode before we start shooting the episodes and and it comes in useful when you have to suddenly jump and like uh it's raining let's go inside and shoot the scene that we were going to do tomorrow and you see people go you know so that's been um really helpful but beyond that um i have a specific way of breaking down scripts that i learned at drama school that i still use to this day and um and uh uh i mean there's always things that are different but i have a um there there are some fundamentals that i always that i always do um whether it's a marvel tv show or playing sally airy or you know whoever so when you're getting off the golf cart you're getting out of the the makeup chair one of the things we imagine that helps root you in the moment of the performance is the fashion you're a fit lord right let's just say just day to day like you are i do like clothes it's because it's because there's no beginning to my debts really very shallow and i love i love clothes oh it's awful well we need to get your formal official assessment of visions drip because we have been very impressed i mean this is a the pops collars a lot of jacket centric discussion and enthusiasm here on this podcast in general it's something we pay attention to in the in the stories that we cover some wonderful i mean the the suits in the mind palace uh stretch is incredible but yeah the pop collar the jacket the various shades of green did you have a favorite fit how involved were you in crafting visions fashion you know tommy told us like so you're just naked all the time but yes we're seeing some excellent fits a shirling collar on a jacket yeah it's um um am1 we had an amazing costume designer amazing costume department and all of those suits which have like the the pinstripe has code and i mean the attention to detail was extraordinary the tie pin that is also the just the mind stone um but the the jacket in the real world was me was my insistence and um i feel like sarah then made it into something that um had she designed it it so it had uh echoes of um visions costume in like the the the i don't know what you would call it there's there's a sort of design in the fabric that comes down here and um but it's it's based on it's based on an n1 deck jacket which is an old um u.s uh second world war sailors jacket and i love that jacket and you will see paul newman in that jacket you'll see well from when he was actually in the navy the u.s navy and you'll see uh james dean in that jacket and it's just you don't think of those people when you see it but it's somehow um it's such a classic um it's such a classic silhouette and i i thought it would also the pop color would also kind of slightly reflect the uh the like the cowl the cowl exactly and so um that's right and then she sarah made it into her own thing and and designed it and but yeah i love that jacket and i um i i stole one there we go yeah you have to you have to you have to um you mentioned sailors which is just the barest excuse i need to talk about to ask you about master and commander which is one of my favorite movies you didn't need an excuse i didn't but here we are yep we got here well james darcy is in this show it's a master and commander reunion yes um first of all why don't we have nine master and commander films is my first question but really my question is actually did you know from the beginning that james would be here so briefly in the show i was so excited for this master and commander reunion and then you know he's here and gone again i did know he was going to be in it so briefly and i wonder whether i mean there's always ways to bring that's right characters back and of course it looked like his code went into all the other characters sure did so um but it was lovely seeing him again it had been so many years we haven't seen each other since i guess the premiere of that that film so uh and uh you know we've both gone on to have families and on other lives and and i always really loved the idea that he had taken the role of jarvis um and so it was yeah it was it was lovely to see him and sad to see him go but i knew it was going to be a huge moment for the show so i was also kind of glad to see him go because i knew the internet traffic would be insane after that we were so sad we were we were really grieving we were mourning but we have like we you know we mentioned earlier with edith we have really loved the mind palace ai found family dynamic you know i think certainly because of how it's uh unlocked some of the thematic examination but honestly it's like fun right and there's got the the production and set deck like it's just been so specific and defined for like the aesthetic of the show but another thing that we've really loved is these moments of of play right we got such a kick out of like the labels on the murder boards you know boards with board with pins incredible stuff like the literal navigation for the robots something we really loved was the ultron vision interpool trip and the little bit of genre play you know getting to do the little like cop procedural and we got a very brief uh edith got to to play you know morgue coroner for for a moment there is there another oh i wish we had gotten to do our version of this type of show for a certain stretch that you should have done you know we we were fine we were we were that's not true terry was finding ways and his writer's room to to make a show that continue to feel redolent of uh wonder vision without without copying wonder vision that would have been a disaster you know and so to find ways to flip through genres like you have your horror genre like you say and and and then the cop procedural which is my favorite genre and i think that's my favorite uh and uh who knows there could be more um uh but also there's a moment that i'm really sad isn't in there i understand why it's not in there because he wanted to keep the funeral sad but there was this really funny moment where edith is experimenting with human emotions and how humans do funerals yeah and so we're all there having a moment and she lifts a bow and arrow with a flaming arrow into it and it's just hilarious and then she did this thing that she improvised which i hope it ends up on an extra somewhere where where she is um trying to pretend to cry and i and i can't do it but she's going and it's just hilarious as she tries to to feel what grief is it's just so good it's so good but i understand why terry was like you know this we can't undercut this uh we would have happily happily received that we love edith that's true i'll eat it all the time truly edith is great she's hilarious ask more about edith about wigs a lot of your passions that we oh do you want me to answer about master and commander yes okay the the reason that we didn't we don't have any more master and commanders is it didn't make enough money i know but it made all of its money back and it made profit but it didn't make enough profit and she's not gonna let that happen that's the sadness for me because i thought it's how many copies of the 4k do i need to buy joe is ready to address i am ready i love that movie it's a beautiful movie i showed it recently to a very macho friend of mine and he loves boats i was like you'll love this movie and he turned to me he's like this is a love story i was like yeah it is but you know what it's great it's a love male energy exactly in uh the best um sure on the wig front i mean phineas is an all-time an all-time wig moment from you but you also got to wear just a parade of them in wandavision yeah do you have a favorite uh wig you've ever gotten to wear either in one of these shows or elsewhere um i really like my 1970s wig yeah that was your favorite yeah yeah and fantastic one i really loved it um it was a great wig made by my amazing friend and i really loved it and i really loved it wig maker carol in london um and it uh but i also really liked in a slightly creepy way the 80s wig because you know when people didn't have chose not to have sideburns yes it's really weird i also loved the 80s and i had those kind of wedge yeah yeah yeah almost a bowl yeah yeah it was it was i it was so fun um to play with but uh but my favorite is the 1970s i think are you how long will it take you to recover from hearing my wig maker carol my wig maker this is a huge moment for you she we call we call her the wig detective she's uh she's a wig scholar i do love a wig so it's true and then she'll come in on the pod and go chronicle all the wigs and i'll say i i caught none of them i just listen it takes all it takes all kinds um okay so we're talking about uh the fun i mean also i want to say for carol um that we were making wigs that wanted to look like yes sure yes um because of the nature of the sort of meta nature of what the show uh was yes she has made me a wig that was um like a shape like what do you call that and you just couldn't tell and it was amazing you would have been able to tell i don't know you would have been the only one carol's a master what do i know you know um whether it's the wigs the fashion the uh the things edith did that did or did not make the show at the funeral so there's the fun right we've talked a lot about the the deeply like trenchant emotional depths there's also some menace that we haven't talked about yet that we have loved getting to see vision i think particularly in the paladin scenes did you lean into like playing the tough playing the heavy just what was that i mean it's a different energy than you've gotten to to to bring in the role you know running through all of the things about paladin's daughter for example just absolutely harrowing yeah for us as viewers to see what was that like for you as a performer to get to like it was really it was really exciting i mean also again another shout out to terry who i think is really masterful at being able to flip between uh comedy drama emotion and and and and yes menace and we talked about it a lot that that often when you have seen uh vision he's very self-contained and it's super fun to see him drunk on a chewing gum or you know behaving out of character or but even in moments of crisis he's really contained we rarely see him angry and i was i thought it would be really fun to see what that looks like when it's somebody once i once saw a show about um bomb disposal experts and they put a heart monitor on a um on a bomb disposal guy as he walked towards a package and in a shopping mall and his heartbeat started going down going down as he got closer to the thing and so i've always thought of that for those moments when and i remember in a in a moment in a pub once with a guy where it was going to be a fight and i looked at him and his face started going white and i went i wonder where all that i was getting you know red and angry and he was just and i was like i wonder where all that blood is going i think we know and i i and i um i thought i thought it'd be really good if it you sort of saw this um white rage with him where it just went yeah yeah and the other person goes oh yeah yeah it was really fun for us to see that so yeah it just fun stuff and i think terry's so good at that stuff i'm remembering moments the sort of wish fulfillment um like when i the hiccups make the atm machine you know that those sort of those sort of fantasy wish fulfillment stuff that and people like spielberg used to do brilliantly for young people i think and and um having a dad that when he hiccups money comes out of the machines gosh i mean tommy had to just phase in and out of the vending machine and shatter the glass but the money there it was um yeah good point i have just i have one more question would you like to ask a serious question no no we're down to our last couple minutes so have some fun have some fun listen you came with me so willingly on the master and commander journey so please journey with me on this question which is that we do have a thing on this pod called the paul of fame this is a real thing the paul of fame paul of fame is inspired originally by paul atreides from dune okay so my question for you is if you could nominate a paul that is not yourself for the paul of fame who is a paul of fame who is a paul of fame who is a paul that you would put in the paul of fame yeah i would pick paul newman because of the jackets probably just everything i mean it's hard with paul newman because he's so effing gorgeous that it's you you wonder whether that hat and butch cassaday would have looked good on anybody else in the whole world but um his sense of uh style i refer back to my having um no beginning to my debts and being incredibly shallow his sense of style is just i and so yeah i think paul newman i'm in the paul of fame interesting okay so not the paul atreides still suits that he can piss right into for fashion it's yeah that's okay fair enough that's off-putting for me interesting all right well you know we usually frown at people who pee in their own yeah i think we have plenty of reasons to frown at paul atreides honestly um let's let's close with like a slightly more serious question that you probably can't answer anything about the finale you want to tease for folks anything at all one episode left yeah will you once again be working with an actor you've most long to work with um what i will tease is there is some more genre of stuff coming up fine and i really want i really feel that um terry has done and the whole writer's room has done an immaculate job in trying to tie up what is a very difficult trilogy yeah while still leaving things open some things open but you know who knows but really to you know those three those these three shows with such differing tones feel feel satisfying in the tie-up i i think is um is the the the sign of of somebody really at the top of their game and so i i feel really confident that fans are gonna go he lands the plane nice terry metallis lands the plane headline amazing is it paladin stealth plane i guess we'll find out but a plane a plane okay well we can't wait we can't wait for the for the finale we're very excited congratulations on a wonderful season so far and thank you for coming to chat oh i loved it what a treat i loved it folks thank you very much um what a dream remember when we talked to paul bettany about wigs and jackets two of our greatest passions and also master it's kind of you to say jackets yeah it's a mat the master and mander and wig talk a lot of jacket talk and you love a jacket but what a time to be you i mean what a time to be you wait he has his own wig maker yeah joanna let's get carol on the pod what do you think i would love it a group trip to london to interview carol the wig maker i'm in okay that's a totally reasonable request spotify you'll be hearing from us um thank you so much to paul bettany thanks paul thank you to molly rubin thank you to joanna robinson my favorite joe respect to jacosta but you're my favorite joe joe joe of fame that does not all of joe doesn't really work nope we got nothing all right cooper's town cooper's town cooper's joe okay so let me think about um thank you to jacob cornet yeah carlos jeroboga thank you our general pal thank you joe mia general thank you scott lee thank you once again molly rubin joanna robinson and we'll see you what's next fellowship of the ring part two yes right no rings of power preview rings of power preview our brains jd and patrick that's right that's right we have an interview with remember that jd and patrick this is our version of vision like unearthing the memories the dab is all in here but sometimes you don't have access to it we talked to jd we did and patrick the showrunners of rings of power our pals at san we're not actually pals with them uh but we do love them i'd love to be though if they're interested what a dream i would love to become at san diego comic con yes so you will you will see a conversation that we had with them quite early in the morning actually in san diego that's right uh where we're talking about a bunch of stuff that's coming up on the rings of power season so just like a little preview of what's to come no major spoilers they're being responsible of course just like teasing some things to come on the season just being the best to love talking to them genuinely lovely lovely people and then Fellowship of the Ring that's right part two with another pal of the pod Bilbo's birthday and then Rings of Power and the Vision Quest finale and on and on and on and on Rings of Power premiere week and Vision Quest finale week are the same week I'm just gonna take you behind the curtain and then we're gonna be for real done promise when we pose for like our group photo with Paul Bettany that should already be up on the gram hopefully I can't I have no idea what you're about to say I'm so excited and right before they took the photo you said into the microphone content never sleeps and you cracked Paul Bettany up I hope that's on video somewhere I don't know but you cracked Paul Bettany up by saying content never sleeps so content never sleeps content never sleeps baby see you soon bye you