Vinh Giang: How to Communicate So People Actually Listen to You

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We spend so much energy becoming the best version of ourselves, building better habits, showing up more fully, embracing mindfulness. But sometimes the most purposeful thing you can do is just handle the thing you've been putting off. If getting your insurance sorted has been living on that list, State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage that's right for you. Go online at statefarm.com or use the easily accessible app to get help from one of their over 19,000 local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by ADT. It's that time of year, back to school, back to work, back to routine. And when life gets busy, it's nice to know your home is one less thing to worry about. ADT wants to help you get back to home so you can focus on the little moments like dinner with family or catching up with friends. With professionally installed customizable systems, ADT has your home security covered. And with the ADT Plus app, you can access your system, from your phone to arm, disarm it, or check live camera feeds. Plus, ADT has the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry, helping protect your home 24-7. And their technology enables first responders to locate you faster in an emergency. This is your time to make memories. Let ADT handle protecting your home. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself, because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Today, I'm joined by my friend, Vin Jiang, communication expert and author, of his first ever book, Before We Forget How To Connect. If you want a book to read right now, this is the one to grab. It will help you break down how to speak with confidence, command attention, and get people to actually listen to you. Vin, welcome back to On Purpose. Thank you so much. And I completely agree with what Jay said. You should totally get a copy. Yeah, they should. Dude, I just want to say, it is so hard to write a book. Oh, man. It's so hard to put all your ideas down on paper. I really. Like to acknowledge, especially when you're doing it for the first time, and how exciting that moment is. And I feel like you've given away so much free value to the world up until this point in your career. So many incredible videos, great training online, and for people to now come and support you through a book and get all those insights in one place. It's really exciting. So congrats. No, thank you so much. And like you said, it was so difficult because being someone who uses their voice, their body language, their expression, that when you write, all of that gets taken away. And all you're left with, is words on a page and you have to be able to communicate melody, volume, the pause. Wow. That was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. Is there just a few pages of pause in the book? I thought pause would be so good if it was just blank pages. And that's a pause. That would have been amazing. I know, I didn't do that. Now I wish I did that, Jay. Why are you telling me this now? I'm sure the publisher would have hated it. Yeah, they would have absolutely hated it. Yeah, the extra printing costs. I wanted to start with, you have a game that you like to play with people to help people start engaging and connecting. Tell me about it. It's such a wonderful way if you're catching up with a friend instead of the usual, hey, mate, how's life? And then we just go to generic things. Oh, kids, work, it's busy. Hit them with High Low Buffalo. So High Low Buffalo is this simple game where high is you share something that's been going well for you. Low is something that hasn't been going so well for you. And then Buffalo is something interesting about you. So I think we should start with that because we haven't seen each other in a while. We haven't. So we can catch up very quickly by playing High Low Buffalo. So you're down? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? Can we do one at a time? Okay, well, you're high and high. Okay, okay, okay. I like that, I like that. So do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? Yeah, I can go first. I can go first. Sure. So high is a highlight, something good this year or this week or? In the last six to 12 months. I would say the greatest high has been, I feel like I'm surrounded by such an incredible high-performing team. I'm feeling like we're all in sync. Everyone has the same values. Everyone's moving in the same direction. And it feels like we found the right people, whether people joined three weeks ago or they joined some people who've been with me for eight years. It feels like we've just got the right unit. Yeah. And that is just one of the most gratifying things, I think, as an entrepreneur, as a business person, to feel that you're surrounded by people that you like being around. Hopefully they like being around me. And I feel this sense of momentum building because of that. And so any success or any achievement we've had this year or in the last few years is because of them. But I feel like we're just getting better and we're just getting started. So that's my big personal high. Oh, that's beautiful. And now I feel this sense of obligation to say the same thing about my team who are here. Who we just met. Who are here. But I'm not going to say that. Good. I'm not going to say that because it's not true for my team. Yeah, there's no alignment whatsoever. No, I love them. But I'm going to choose my high as, you know, I've got two kids. I've got Melody, who's two, and Xander, who's nine. And for the first time before I left, they played well. Okay, so you're talking to them, it's war. It's always, oh, that's my toy. That's my toy. But for the first, because my daughter loves Barbies, dresses, girls, girl. My son loves animals, dinosaurs. But for the first time before I went away on a Sunday, we were literally catching bugs, putting them into this ecosystem that my son created. And they played together beautifully for three hours. And that was just, just as a dad for the first time, I've seen both my kids play. And I'm like, so that's why you have more than a kid. It's for these moments. Yeah. Because it melted my heart. It was beautiful. And at the end of three hours, it was immediately, and I was like, ah, damn it. But that was a high for me. I love that. That was beautiful, man. That's awesome. When you go back, will they still be playing? They're already fighting. Yeah. Because my wife's already told me now she has to co-sleep with both of them. But my son's like, this is my bed. And my daughter's like, this is my bed. Yeah. But that's okay. It's for the moments, the 5% moments that remind you why you have multiple children. Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful, man. That's awesome. You probably missed them not seeing them for three weeks. FaceTime every single night. And it's actually, yeah, it's hard. It's hard now being away more than ever. Yeah. I can imagine. So that's high. Yeah, that's high. And then we go to low. We go to low. Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com forward slash teen account. So I live in LA where we are right now, but I'm from London. And so every Christmas I go back to London for the holidays. This year is 10 years since I left England to live in the States. And so I wanted to do a thank you gratitude evening dinner for my closest friends in London. So to invite everyone over, but do it as a way of saying thanks for supporting me for the last 10 years in my career since day one. These are people I've known for two decades. And this was a hard moment because the one person I really want to invite is my mentor who died during the pandemic of stage four brain cancer. And it's been really hard thinking about this event and doing it without him because it almost doesn't make sense without him there. And then while we were making the invites in the last 24 hours, I just had, I put it in honor of him, like in memory of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that made it feel like it made sense all of a sudden, just like that. That tiny line at the bottom of an invite that says in memory of and in honor of his name. And I was just thinking how fabulous it is to have people like that, that I miss so much and that I would love to share my success with so much. And there's this incredible video. It was, it was actually Piers Morgan interviewing Cristiano Ronaldo. This is years ago. Piers Morgan takes out a video that Cristiano Ronaldo's never seen of his dad talking about how proud he was because his dad never got to see him become the massive soccer star he is. His dad died before that happened. Yeah. And I was thinking about just how lucky you are to have someone in your life like that who believed in you before everything happened, before the world noticed, before society got on board. And that mentor was that person to me. And so to go back and celebrate feels weird without him because I know he'd be the person right at the front cheering me on. And that's been not a low, but it's one of those like bittersweet moments of I'm really excited to celebrate. Celebrate, but I miss him. What would you say to him? I'd say to him, thank you for believing in me when I didn't have anything to prove that I was even going to do it. do anything in my life i'd say thank you to him for investing in me when i probably wasn't showing any potential or even sincerity thank you for always making me feel like nothing was impossible when everyone around you had their doubts and their skepticism and their cynicism and people like that you you meet one person like that if you're lucky in your lifetime maybe you got two or three and so yeah i i feel a sense of bittersweet of going back to celebrate with all these people but not having the one person that i believe i'd like to honor with everything i've been able to achieve in the last 10 years yeah no thank you for sharing man and and and for me the the low thing in the last couple of years has just been i've i've had really close family members who've been who are younger than me i'm 40 this year and they're in their late 30s mid 30s getting cancer you know people i i i love like my my cousins and it feels low because you you want to help you you you want to do more than just sit and be there for them you want to be able to help them but it's you can't they have to fight the battle they have to go through the pain they have to endure the chemo endure the radiation therapy and it just you feel so helpless so i think i've been i've been sitting with that for for a couple of years and that's that's just it's just been getting harder and harder the longer the battle goes on and it just reminds me too of we the time we have with our loved ones are just not promised yeah so that's that's a big one so thank you thank you for letting me share yeah have they shared anything useful of how they want you to support them at this time because i think a lot of people we're going to talk about communication today yeah i feel like one of the hardest things to communicate is with someone who's going through something much worse than you are and i think a lot of us shut off a lot of people and and sadly enough i have friends in my life who also at young ages have cancer yeah and the number one thing they say to me is jay people just ignore it or avoid the topic because they don't know what to say they need different things in different moments and you have to learn how to ask them for what they need in the different moments they're experiencing because my go-to jay is always everything's gonna be okay you know and then there are times when they do need that and then there are times when everything's not okay and and it was so confusing even for me i teach this craft and i i did it wrong multiple times and i've had to learn how to listen with more than just my brain and listen to the words i had to learn how to listen with my eyes listen with my ears i had to learn how to listen with my heart so there's they and they need different things in different moments there's times when people need a patent break i don't want to talk about it anymore and then there are times when all i want to do is talk about it i want to talk about the mobility of it maybe i won't be here for this christmas so it's it's a lot of times when i don't want to talk about it it's knowing when and that's all about listening listening to them you know and i think that's that's the key thing but it's just the big lesson they've kind of taught me is sometimes it's not about solving anything sometimes it's just about us sitting and connecting and reminding me of who i am sometimes it's just us sharing old stories sometimes it's just us eating together whereas my brain jay is always let's solve it this fear that you're feeling let's solve the fear let's just fix it but sometimes there's nothing to fix sometimes you need to sit in that fear and be okay with it and the biggest lesson i learned from them is i remember my cousin telling me once he just goes i just want you to sit in the dark with me and just be scared with me right whereas i tried to be brave all the time and i learned so many lessons on this journey and learned that it's not always about fixing it sometimes you sit in the dark with them jay really helpful and really thoughtful way of looking at it yeah so that's high and low yeah and then there's buffalo which is something interesting about you that maybe people don't know it doesn't have to be crazy it can be something small or it can be something big you know like all these ornaments you have i find them fascinating i thought that was from the odyssey but it wasn't and i wish it was yeah i'm obsessed with the odyssey i mean i think this one's funnier because it's so antithetical to who i really am but for some reason i do enjoy the game and we're just talking about it with your team now i'm excited about gta 6 it's so funny oh that's awesome it's so funny i was like i'm really looking forward to it i can't wait i don't i don't get that much time to play video games anymore are you gonna block some time out at least a weekend a weekend of 48 hours i think yeah because you said this was a playstation room where you're not podcasting this used to be my man cave oh before we turned it into this it's beautiful and so thank you and so this used to be my man cave but now i don't have a man cave at the moment i love that you have a gamer in you yeah you know that's so good to know because every time i game i feel bad about it i'm like oh my god i'm gonna play this game i'm gonna play this game i love fifa love nba 2k and i love gta those are my three games so i'm not much of a call of duty or i'm not just so those are my three games oh that's beautiful i love knowing that about you that's that's beautiful it humanizes yeah my buffalo i think i've never said this out loud i'm a prepper a doomsday prepper oh dude i love it there's something about it where i i've got a basement i've got mylar bags filled with rice little oxygen tablets it removes all the oxygen from the basement it's a decent size it's a decent size i won't say too much otherwise i'll get like you know when the zombie apocalypse happens everyone will come after me yeah yeah i'm coming to you now yeah yeah i know you gotta come to adelaide south australia in the hills but it just i i don't know what it is i'm so drawn to that i love the shows and i watch it i'm like that is a wild setup you know i just that's me i think i think people don't expect that but i'm gonna have to learn from you oh man you gotta at least learn the basics uh you're gonna learn how to garden you gotta learn how to grow your potatoes you gotta learn how to do your archery the basics i didn't know how it was gonna go before we did it because i was wondering i was like oh am i just gonna say something high and low like it will will i actually go there and for whatever reason i felt we both gave really genuine sincere thoughtful answers that really resonated and i felt wow like we i felt connected to you in a way that we haven't had the opportunity to do for a long time well it allows us to do it quickly in about the time span of five to eight minutes right so so we're able to look at something you're proud of like your team and the alignment we're looking looking at something that you you're feeling a bit low about is someone that you wanted to thank that's no longer here and then also the fact that you you play games you can't wait for gta 6 right so it was beautiful we could hit all three things straight away so what that does is now between the both of us i call them conversational threats so there are three conversational threads that you've shared i've shared three conversational threads this conversation now has six conversational threads and if you if you if you rewind this video what's really cool is naturally we started pulling on each other's low thread naturally i asked you the questions and then you immediately asked me about my low questions and to me people go oh i hate small talk i hate small talk then that's because you're not pulling on the threads that's because you're not listening carefully and and again if you play the video back and you listen to my voice or jay's voice you can hear our voices shift you can hear there's more emotion you can hear the language that we use you can see our body language changes and to me these are all threads visual threads with your body language auditory threads with your voice language threads key words that you say right the regret or even for me it's sitting in sitting in the darkness these are all threads and you can pull on them and as you ask more questions we go deeper and i think the only reason why people get trapped in small talk is because then they've never learned to hear see feel and sense these threads whereas there's depth opportunities all around you in every conversation and and that's the thing have the courage to play this game with your kids with your best mate with your colleagues and in 10 minutes you'll learn things about each other you've never known about each other which now creates the opportunity for depth yeah and the scary thing is jay when i shared this game with my students immediately there's that feeling of like oh no this is one of those icebreaker games this is lame i don't want to do it it's weird but it's like it's only weird if you make it weird we could have made it really weird if we wanted to but we didn't right so i think and that just goes to show how adverse we are and maybe it's a skill we're starting to lose yeah the discomfort people feel of just sharing something that's gone good something that's bad and something interesting what i find when i speak to people is we start judging ourselves for maybe my high isn't high enough and maybe my low isn't low enough yeah so we get scared that oh maybe i'm going to share a success that isn't going to be important enough and maybe that person's now going to say they just got promoted whatever it may be and so we're worried about that and therefore we don't know where to gauge it and then we say something silly and then we're like oh that was even worse and then i've heard people say i don't think my life's worth complaining about like it's not bad enough and i think what we both shared actually wasn't even about us in that it wasn't that something bad happened to you or me it was that something bad had happened to people we love and we were feeling pain for that which neither of us felt judged for like i didn't feel my pain was greater or less than yours i feel like that's a really important point to make that don't judge your answer before you put it out into the world because if it's a friend a colleague or a family member chances are they're not going to judge you for it and they'll meet you where you're at yeah so yeah don't don't criticize yourself before expressing yourself i love that thought and and the opposite of that thought is also true where you think to yourself oh it's too big of, I don't want to say it. I don't want to seem like I'm gloating. That's why we become more lonely than ever because we're self-editing so much that we dim what is bright. Or sometimes we are afraid to share that light. You've got to learn to not be afraid to just share what is you. And I think that's a big part of why I wrote this as well is because so much of the book is you exploring your voice, you exploring your body language, you exploring the stories that exist within you. I think the more we explore, the more comfortable we come with the instrument that we play. Whereas often people aren't comfortable sharing certain things because you've never shared that. You've never shared it before. So don't look at it as wrong. It's just unfamiliar. How do you share a win without sounding egotistic? Ego has a sound to it too, because to me, there's a visual nature to it. And then there's an auditory nature to it. So say if I was sharing a win and I wanted, it would sound arrogant. I can say, oh, this morning, my friend gave me a really good, great watch, a watch that I've always wanted in my entire life. And he was able to share it with me. And it's just like a grail watch that I've wanted. Sick. So you kind of sound a little bit eager. It's actually, it was an Odyssey watch from Hamilton, which was wild. Then it sounds like it, and it could look like it too. Whereas if you said it, then you shift the way the voice and you shift the visual nature of it. It's like, oh, this morning I got something I wanted for a really long time. My friend, Lee got me a watch. It was an Odyssey watch and it was so cool. And now there's a sound of humility. There's a subtleness in sound. There's a subtleness in the visual nature. And that fixes so much because when you meet somebody who's arrogant, they look a certain way and they sound a certain way. And we all recognize it. We go, oh, that person's, oh, they're a bit arrogant. Sometimes what they said wasn't even arrogant. So it's you thinking in the back of your mind, well, when I'm speaking, what kind of sounds, am I creating? Because there is such thing. Someone's friendly. How do you know they're friendly? It's because they're smiling. There's lots of melody in their voice. Oh, that person's friendly. We make those judgments so quick. So I think you've just got to be, you've got to be careful in that. Whereas be proud of the thing you're proud of. If you love that watch, talk about that watch. If you're proud of the promotion, talk about the promotion, but it's how you play the instrument while you're doing it ends up being the way that people perceive it. Do they perceive it with arrogance or without? And that's what's so fascinating. We're editing the content, more than we are the communication approach. We don't think about the communication approach. What's the first thing people do when they're preparing for a presentation? What's the first thing they do? They write out the content, the script. Yeah. It's all about the script. And they think that the only modality for communicating an idea is the words that I choose to use. That's one modality. There are so many, there's the voice in which you use to deliver it. There's the body language in which you use to show it. And then there's a story that you decide to use to be able to enhance it. There's so many other modalities. So it's about all of them working together. I was reading some research about this and looking into how we can help our audience today, really build these skills in the way you do. And of course, hopefully people get the book and then can read about it at length. But there were some key things I wanted to dive into. 96% of employers say that communication skills are extremely important to them, but only 53% believe that new graduates have those skills. When it comes to communication, what are Gen Z struggling with? What they're struggling with is you're throwing them into an environment without training them for the environment. I feel that this is a skill that we get left to our own accord to learn. So if you've had great parents who are great communicators and you modeled them, and then you're a great communicator, you have an advantage in the workforce. Whereas if you think about in the workforce, when do you learn this skill? In your own personal life, when do you learn this skill? You're not taught this skill anywhere. You're left to your own accord to master this skill. So if you've never learned it, then you're not going to be good at it. But then there's a problem is that now people are making the assumption that because I'm not good at it, well, I'm never going to be able to get great at it. People make judgments about their own communication skills as if they're permanent. But the way you communicate is just a series of behaviors that you've learned from other people that you've been repeating for the last five, 10, 20, 30, 40 years of your life. You can unlearn them and you can replace them with new behaviors. So I think a lot of Gen Z just don't have the opportunity to practice these skills and be given the opportunity to master these skills. And then as a result, I see a lot of even my younger team members, they rather text me than have a conversation with me. But again, it's not their fault. I think if they learned how to play the instrument really well, they would love to do this. And it's not about one is bad, the other is. It's both. They're both really good. There are times when I just want to text, but then when I need to do this, I can too. Yes. Otherwise, you fall into the trap of thinking, I'm just going to let my work speak for itself, which is a super common trap. And then you end up being a secret agent that no one knows exists. Leave the secret agent stuff to Daniel Craig. Yeah, leave it to him. Whereas you should learn how to shine your light. You should learn how to do great work and learn to speak for it too. Yes. Yes. And take responsibility for it. Don't look at it as, oh, that's not important. Don't look at it as, oh, I'll leave that to other people to create training opportunities for me. No, go learn this yourself. No one's going to come in and just teach you. You should take the initiative and learn it because it's a human skill. Am I right in saying there's two forms of communication, listening and speaking, or are there more? Well, I feel there's those two that happen. I think there's also writing. That's another form of communication. And those are the three quadrants I think of it in. I was reading another study that said, 66% of people think they're good listeners. Do you agree? Do you want to try a game? Yeah. To see how you feel with listening? Yes, let's do it. So this is a really fun game to play at home if you want to get a sense of where you sit when it comes to listening. So we're just going to talk. I'm going to start a conversation as if we're just going to create a mock moment about where we're going to go to eat. Okay. But you have to continue the conversation with me as I'm having it with you by starting your sentence with, the letter of my last word. So it's called last word, last letter, right? Okay. So whatever my last word is, you have to think about the last letter and then start the new sentence with the last letter of the last word. Got it. And we're going to continue the conversation. Yes. Okay. So, okay. You ready? Let's do it. I've never done this before. Okay. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. That's what I have. Okay. Listen, Joe, I can't wait tonight to find the best Korean barbecue restaurant in LA. And I feel like I have a good sense of them, but I want to, I want to do it. I have a good sense of them, but I want to know what kind of cuisine you like. Every Korean cuisine to me is fantastic, but I especially love, I love Kobe beef. I love it when you grill it on the barbecue yourself. I love being able to, to dine with that kind of style. So you cook it yourself. Feeling a little confused about where to go. I think there's a few people on my team that I'd have to speak to. And I think they might have a good sense of where we will be going to find that kind of food because I'm plant based. So I wouldn't know. So I need to go and talk to a few people on my team and check in with them as to what their top recommendations are when it comes to that. That's great. Because now I've learned something about you too. And you can also grill mushrooms. We can grill eggplant. We can cook so many different things. So don't feel like you can't go to a great Korean barbecue place because there's so many ways to do it. Got it. So you see with this simple game that we're playing, did it feel cognitively difficult? It was different. It's different, right? It's very different. Because I'm listening for the last word. I then have to listen for the last letter. I then have to pause to actually think about what I'm going to say. Yes. So what are you doing then as a result of this game? So as you're playing this at home, the best way to do it is after you played it, just sit down and write on a scale of one to 10, how hard was it? And if it was really hard, write 10. If it was really easy, you can do this in your sleep, then write one. But it gives you an indicator of how well you listen. Because if you find it really difficult, it's difficult because often when people are speaking, we're already thinking about our response that we want to give. Whereas this game forces you, you can't think of what you want to say until I finish. So I'm listening to every word you're saying. And then once you finish, then I can form my sentence. That's how I learned to listen better. Because when I first played this, I wasn't just pausing. I stumbled and I couldn't continue the conversation. I was so in my head. And I gave you a more honest answer. So when you ended the line with an F and I went, I'm feeling a little confused about where that was the most honest emotional response, because if you, if we hadn't had practiced that, my response would have been like, oh, that's awesome, man. Cool. That's great. Like, yeah, I'll ask one of the team, you know, and it just, it actually would have lost all the value of the conversation because now I'm not only present from an auditory perspective, but I'm also present from an auditory perspective. I'm not present from an emotional perspective because it was good for me to say, Hey, I'm a little confused actually about where we could go for that in LA because I'm plant-based. I don't really know. And we got into a conversation that I felt was different. So I like that. I like that a lot. I think it's such a wonderful game that makes you more present because we, we, we see the posts on Instagram, right? Be more present, be present today with your kids and your loved ones. But how do you do that pragmatically? This is just such a fun little hack to play with. And again, just do it right at a conversation with your partner and just force yourself. I've got to continue the conversation, but I have to just start. my sentence with the last word and last letter of their sentence. I'm excited for people to try that. And then I'll add on another thing here to make it really pragmatic because there's four modalities for listening, right? And that game highlights the modality of the words. You're really focusing on the words of what they're saying here, but that's one component. So I think that's the most common component we all listen to. But if you just hear words alone, if I say the words, that's fine. And I say it in a neutral way, well, that's a meaning, but I could say it differently with my voice. So if I say, that's fine, probably isn't fine. It sounds a little bit, a little bit, there was a little bit of, a little bit upset there. And I can say, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's probably fine. Right. Or that's fine. Right. So you're questioning it. Like, is it really? So again, you can also listen to the vocal changes. So as you get better with that game, don't just listen to the words, listen to the vocal changes. That says a lot. Someone who normally speaks in a very calm way, speaking fast, they're nervous. There's something's going on there. To me, that's a thread, right? Or sometimes you can listen to the body language, someone who's very confident. And then you see them on a day, they're, they're wringing their hands while they're talking. That's a thread. And if you see that thread paired with a vocal thread paired with certain language, that's a cluster. And now if you see a cluster, lean into that. And that's how you make people feel so heard, so seen, so understood. And as you listen to the words, vocal changes, the body language changes, you train yourself to see these things. You'll get better. You'll get better. You'll get better. You'll get better. You'll start to learn. There are so many opportunities for us to be able to be there for the people we love, for the people we serve. It could be a client. And you just reflect back, Hey, it, it looks like it's not fine. Do you want to talk about it? And you just open the door. It's up to them whether or not they want to walk through. No one does that anymore. I rarely see people better listen on these layers, which then never unlocks the fourth. Because as you listen to the words more carefully, the voice and the body language, now you get a sense of how people feel. Now you go, oh, okay. I can sense they're, actually, I can sense they're excited to talk about this. So I'm going to ask more questions about it to join in on the excitement with them, to share the excitement with them. Or there's some sadness here. Maybe I'll open the door and see if they want to chat about it. So start with high low Buffalo, but then recognize there are other layers here. And as you peel back these layers, and that's what you do so well, is that you notice it in people. And I see it in your interviews. You see it in people and you're, and then the next time you talk, you pull on that. And you go, how I noticed that before. And then, oh, it's beautiful. But it's a skill anybody can learn. It's not just Jay or me. Everybody can learn this. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotel book direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining and reserve exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants or the you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. One of the things I really like about Quince is that the pieces are just easy. I've been wearing their organic cotton crew neck sweater, the mesh stitch sweater polo, and their European linen utility shirt. 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And when Quince asked where you heard about them, let them know it was on purpose with Jay Shetty. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is brought to you by Bioptimizers. People often ask how I keep traveling, filming, and speaking across time zones. It's all about sleeping well. A few years ago on my on purpose tour, my sleep fell apart. That's when my doctor recommended Magnesium Breakthrough from Bioptimizers. Magnesium is responsible for the health and well-being of your body. It's a great way to for over 300 essential functions in the body. And most supplements only give you one or two forms of it. This one has seven, including glycinate, the go-to form for sleep, plus malate and tarate tied to energy production and heart function. If you want to try it yourself, go to bioptimizers.com forward slash Jay Shetty and use code Jay Shetty for 15% off your first order. That's B-I-O-P-T-I-M-I-Z-E-R-S. This is breakthrough science. I trust. 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The last statistic, that I read that I wanted to share with you is only 16% of employees feel their last conversation with their manager is meaningful. And I wanted to ask you, how do we speak in a way that people actually listen and create meaning? Because I think that's what we're looking for from every interaction we're looking for. Like even when you're coming here today, I want to have a meaningful conversation with you. When I speak to someone, even if we're not thinking it directly at the forefront of our mind, what we're really hoping for is, I hope that we're having a meaningful exchange. And by the way, meaning can be fun. It can be happy. It can be joyful. It can be deep. It doesn't have to be serious. Talk to me about that. How do we speak in a way that people actually listen and we have a meaningful connection? They're two different things. I think speaking in a way that people will listen is you learning how to play your instrument in a way that engages others, that has variety, that doesn't fall victim to monotony. If you don't play with your instrument at all, being your body language and your voice, then your content better be damn good what you're saying. You better be telling me the meaning of life. Okay. Right. Then I'm all ears. I don't care how you talk. Right. But if it's not 10 out of 10 content at all times, then you're going to engage me. If you want me to be more engaged, you need to be more engaging. It's the reality of the situation. It's again, it's a, I love this metaphor. You can have the greatest music written by Beethoven, but if you don't play it well, it won't be perceived that way. So do your work and do your, your, your content or maybe it's your expertise or the gifts and talents that you have. Do it justice. Learn how to play the music, learn how to play with your instrument. Well, the depth it's about taking the conversation further. People don't feel heard when you don't pull on the thread at all. So someone comes into the manager's office. Hey, I'm feeling really stressed. I'm feeling overworked. I'm feeling like I, you know, having to work overtime, I'm staying back after hours. And then the manager might just say, oh, great. No, thank you for sharing that. What we just said before, how do you make them feel like there's depth, like there's connection, like you care is simply now recognizing and seeing how defeated they sound and look, and then asking the question and reflecting, Hey, tell me more about that. What's causing that. So to me, it's a mindset of curiosity when you notice the clusters. So when you notice those clusters, be really curious in those moments, anytime there's a peak emotion, whether it be sadness or frustration or even happiness, learn to develop your senses so that when you sense that, you automatically now ask three follow-up questions, regardless of what that thing is. Got it. So if it's excitement, then just go, Hey, you sound really excited. What's going on? Something's happening. So now you get to share in their joy. So they might say, oh, Vin, I just bought three alpacas. Follow up. Don't end it there and go, oh, that's really cool. I've always thought about alpacas. And now you're making it about you. Yes. No, no. Keep it on them. Three questions at least. So tell me, well, what's the thing you learned about alpacas that that's been awesome? Oh, Vin, did you know they poo in one spot only and that you can use their poo immediately as manure? And this is a true conversation. Like, yeah. So I'm like, wow, that's amazing. So you can use their poo straight away. You don't have to, no, you just mix it with water and you chuck it in. That is when people feel like, oh man, you really care. And all it takes is learning the sensitivity to be able to listen to those modalities, regardless of the emotion. Once you sense it, three follow-up questions there, that makes sense. Just three. Oh gosh. And that alone. We'll just make people feel, and then don't don't be afraid to share yours. Yes. Yes. That's how you can speak without feeling like you're taking over because you, you recognize you sense the peak emotion, three questions on this, and now you can share too. Yeah. That's a great example. I love the, I love the rule of three questions because we're so used to someone sharing one thing and then we go back and it's just all of a sudden, like you said, you feel like you may not even be conscious of it, but you are taking over and you've just, maybe not undermined, maybe that's a strong word, but you've made the other person feel that their experience now stops there. And now it's about your experience, even if it's of alpacas and the same thing or whatever it may be. I don't find that people tend to do this and take over with, with ill intent. It's because we want to connect. I want the other person to know that I've also got pets. I've got chickens at home. Right. But unintentionally you've then just created disconnect. Yes. When you're talking to someone, you're talking to them, you're talking to them, you're talking to them. You're trying for connection, which is the unfortunate thing is that we, we try for it yet. We, we, we fail at it. And what it goes back again, Jay, is that, you know, on our journey, I don't know about you and, and, and podcasting and, but I've had to learn this. And I think people have this sense of I'm either good at it or I'm not. So no, no, stop. It's like this, this is a skill that you can learn. Yes. And I think that's what I tried to do is break it down into the most simple forms, learn how to use your instrument, which is your voice and your body, and then learn how to play great music, which is storytelling. And then learn how to appreciate other people's music, learn how to listen to the music that other people are playing, learn how to listen to the little nuances in the music they're playing, learn how to push further. So they might play songs they've never played for anybody that you may be the first to hear, which then may inspire you to play songs. You didn't even know you had. That's why these conversations are so beautiful, because I don't know where it's going, but it's based on you listening so well, you finding something. And then us just going on the journey of conversational discovery. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. And I love the way you've broken down those, those three. I think the first thing people are worried about when it comes to that is how do I make a good first impression? And people are scared. How am I going to be judged? How am I going to be perceived? Do I fit in? Do I belong? Am I interesting? When someone's going to a networking event, they're coming into an interview, they're going along to a new group of friends, maybe even just a friend. There's going to be more people there. How can people feel confident that they're making a good first impression? I think one of the most wonderful ways is to meet people where they are. And this is why something I focus so much on when I'm teaching my students is you have to stretch your instrument, play with your voice, try things with your voice you never tried before. If you're quiet, try being louder. But if you're really loud all the time, try being a little softer and seeing what that does. So you stretch in every sense, like yoga. You keep stretching and then you'll have a range of motion that you didn't have before. So then when you're going into these networking functions with a larger range of motion, which more access to your instrument, now you can access all the keys on the instrument. Then when you meet people, you go, oh, okay. So this group quite loud and rowdy. Okay. So they're fun group and you may avoid them in the past, but because now you've got access to your entire instrument, meet them where they are. So if you want to make a good impression with that group, then be more like them. And then people will immediately go, oh, but that's fake and phony. That's not fake and phony. That's you adjusting yourself to be able to meet people where they are, which is to me, an incredible sign of a great communicator, because I'm not just going to be in my world going, I'm not going to do what you do. You just have to meet me where I am. You're being, you're being considerate. They're having a great time. Great. So then I'll match them where they are, but you don't have to stay there. So if you're meeting a group that's really quiet, you're naturally really loud. That's okay. Meet them where they are. So come into a, Hey, my name's Vin. I just want to meet you. I want to meet you. I want to introduce myself. Do you mind if I join the conversation? Meet them where they are and then slowly take them to where you want to go and slowly add a little more volume, bring a little more life to your body language. That, that to me is the most powerful tip because it's context dependent is not saying always meet somebody with a firm grip, always smile when you walk in or because it's, it's so contextual. I can't agree with you more. And you could walk into a room with a big smile on your face and it's the wrong room. Don't do it at a funeral. I think you murdered the person. Yeah. And the firm grip handshake point is so true. Some people shake softly. I'm not going to death grip them. Right. You know, then I'll return that because I sensed it because maybe there are soft, there's someone who's softer because the goal is not who has the more powerful handshake. The goal is connection. That's the goal. And I think that's why we need to really be familiar with the instrument, learn how to play it in every single way. Be comfortable with using your hand gestures. Gosh, some of my students are afraid to even use their hands. So if you're afraid to even use it, you don't have that range of motion. You're never going to use it. Yes. Yes. So it's, it's wild that we were born with the ability to do all of this, Jay. I mean, my daughter who's two, she can play all the notes, sing all the songs, move in ridiculous ways. She bops to everything. It's beautiful. But then as we grow older, we start to, we start to lose the music. We start to lose the presence. We lose the movement because we're afraid of what other people think. Most people aren't thinking about you though. And people don't have the same perception either. I was thinking that a lot of the time we walk into a room and let's say it's a quiet room. And then someone really loud comes into that conversation and they seem to be owning the conversation. And you walk away thinking, Oh, I wish I could be like that person. And the truth is no one else in the group felt that way. Everyone else actually felt that that person came and destroyed them. And so it's almost like you've disrupted the whole mood. But in your head, you think, Oh, that loud person who can kind of navigate the room, they look like the most powerful. And so sometimes what I think we believe or perceive as powerful in a room, isn't what everyone else perceives as powerful. Sometimes people feel that person was abrasive or arrogant or show, you know, showing off or whatever it may be. And so the way you perceive people is also not the way everyone else perceives people. And so it's important to recognize that you're almost going into a room, finding the people who are going to be a match with you, rather than going, Oh, that's impressive. And that's not. I feel like what you're teasing out there is emotional intelligence. So much of emotional intelligence come, I really believe comes down to listening because you have to better read the moment. Because if you're playing that, if you are that loud person, that loud person, A, no one's told them. B, they don't watch other people as they're communicating. Because if all of a sudden I'm really loud now, and I just, notice your eyes widened, right? But I can sense that because I'm learning to look for that. If you have that ability to listen now with your eyes, your heart, your mind, your ears, now, you know, when you're being too much, now, you know, when you're being too little and you need to be bigger, otherwise you're going to be invisible. So much of that helps when you're having a first impression, because in some rooms being quiet, being calm and being composed, that's the best first impression you can make. In other rooms, if you're not loud enough, no one hears you. And it's so interesting because people like to make these blanket statements because it makes a great social media video. It's like the calmest person is the quietest person who says the least. Yeah. In some contexts, in others, it's the person who tells the best story. Who's the most charismatic that owns that room. That's why I think now I'm so conscious of when I'm sharing advice with people, share advice that encourages the person to develop a skill, to work out how they can improve themselves. As opposed to giving a given formula, because I think what I've learned in writing this is that what I've avoided Jay is here are the top 10 things you should do because that 10 top 10 things is me going from, Oh, I've taught all these shooters. Now what's the most common things. But I worry about that because general advice leads to general results. Whereas what I'm hoping to encourage people to listen is that go away and play that high low Buffalo game and then check with yourself and see if you're thinking those internal thoughts. What are you worried about? Oh, is that, is that too big? Write down what you could do to improve the next time. Yes. Listening. What are you not good at listening with? Are you good at listening with the eyes? Are you not? So you create your own list of 10 things because once you have your own list of 10 things, exponential results. Now it's a list made for you as opposed to a generic one. You asked chat GPT for, I actually fully agree with you. And I'm glad you're doing that in your book and in your work, because I remember when I came to the States 10 years ago and I was speaking on stages and most people who sit under any category of motivational speaking or inspirational speaking, they were much bigger than me and spoke bigger than me. And what I mean by that is they had a bigger physical presence. I'm a smaller human in general. You're so tall. I'm not that tall. I'm like, yeah, I think so. When people meet me in person, they're like, Oh, I thought you were taller online. Oh really? People think I'm shorter. Really? Yeah. You're super tall. And then the other one was like this idea of people were like bigger with their voice on stage. And even when I'm on stage and I've done huge audiences, I'm not that loud because it's just not who I am. And it's not how I want to use my instrument. And I, in the beginning started to think, do I need to be one of these people that's like, you can do anything you get. And I was like, but that's just, I can do that if I wanted to from a capability perspective, but it's not how I feel. the person I'm talking to. And that's not my way of motivating someone, inspiring them, and I started to realize that oh i enjoyed being the quieter thoughtful calmer person on stage rather than the you can break through any wall and there's nothing wrong with that i like it i actually love yeah listening to stuff like that yeah but that's not me and that's not who i want to be and so what you're saying to me is if someone had said to me jay you need to you know ramp it up you need to speed up at the end of your speech and you need i would have been like yeah but it doesn't fit like it doesn't feel good it's taste you you have a certain flavor you have a certain genre of music you like to play however i believe you've explored it yes you're someone who's gone and explored all the different flavors so the way that i like to think about it especially if you're sitting there and you're thinking well where do i begin where do i start if i if i don't see myself as a great communicator how can i think about this whole journey what do i do well it's like think about a great chef how does a great chef become a great chef so when you're new at cooking well you copy the ingredients from a great chef yes so go taste the food and go experience other speakers and see which speaker you like maybe you do like the one that says you gotta go do it right maybe you do like that maybe you like someone who's more calm someone's much more composed and relaxed go experience all the flavors find which chefs you like find three to five and then break down their behaviors what about it do you like and that's why i break down the behaviors in the book so that as you watch these speakers now you can break down all the body behaviors or the vocal behaviors once you do that then start to emulate try it on i tried on tony robbins that was not me but that's okay how did i know that wasn't me because i tried it so don't sit there and judge it how can you know what a dish tastes like if you've never taken a spoonful of and ate it you'll be shocked at what things you actually like but you've never tried right i used to thought being playful is being too silly now i love being playful yeah right i love the taste of that flavor so then as you go on that journey of finding the great chefs with the clarity breaking down their behaviors of voice and body language and types of stories all of that then emulate and go through a period of emulation and then after you go through that emulation you'll become confident you'll start to go oh i can yeah i can i can do my version of j or my version of it then as you get confident a chef gets confident with the dish what do they do now i'm gonna add a little shallot add some shallot oil gosh that's that enhances everything i'm gonna add triple the i don't care if it makes me fart all right so you go harder with that right spice yeah now you're making it your own so then you start to create this unique taste this unique flavor which you've created now for you but the only way to get to that is through a journey of exploration i agree with that doing things you've never done before trying things you've never done before otherwise what happens you just stick to the way you've been talking because you've learned that way from mom and dad and you repeat it for 40 years and that's all you're going to do now there are so many other ways to play go test go experiment go explore right so i think that that's that's a really important message yes i love that message and i can relate to in my journey i spent a lot of time studying stand-up comics because when i'm on stage i love being funny and playful and silly and i don't do that on a podcast because i need an audience to do that i'm not someone who i'm not going to tell a joke it needs to be back and forth but when i'm on stage i love to be playful i love to have fun with the audience i love to be interactive and so i spent years watching stand-up comedians and how they did it and there were some that did crowd work and that was one flavor which i love i love crowd work there was another that literally would bring a piece of content up i.e a video or a book and they'd read from it and then they'd react funnily to it oh and so they'd play a video and pause it and then say something funny and play it and pause it that's a really good technique because now you're not having to be funny you're getting to respond to something that could spark ideas and i was like they could sometimes be reading from a book and be like oh god i'm gonna rip that page out whatever you know and i was like oh that's a that's a medium that's a flavor and so i think when it comes to speaking and communication you've got comedians you've got musicians some if you've ever watched adele in between singing a song adele is the funniest person ever like you would wish you were at a bar with her on a friday night having a drink hanging out because that's how she makes you feel in between these insane songs and like belting at the top of their lungs of emotional and humor and then humor and it's spectacular and it's like she does it so effortlessly the point is you can learn this from so many different people and places that's right you're talking about in food and i'm thinking about it as clothes you know there used to be a time when every guy was just wearing skinny jeans yeah yeah and now generally men are not wearing skinny jeans anymore you may wear straight leg you may wear a boot cut you may wear a white leg but it's if you never tried it on you'll never know whether it looks good on you and so i think i absolutely agree with you you have to go and try it on and if you just stay in your own style that you still dressed as when you were 16 then then you're you're going to be that person that you were at 16 i did that there's a fashion sense i was so afraid to try on new clothes because what am i going to say i say oh that's not me so i think i think something i'd love to say here is that don't be so attached to who you are in the present you don't give the future version of you a chance whether it be the way you dress to the way you communicate to the career path that you're on don't be so attached to this i learned such a beautiful lesson from from a mentor and a dear friend his name's adam chaya he he created suri and i was sitting on the train with him once learning from him and he shared this beautiful metaphor with me and he said then life is like a great book many different chapters that nobody saw coming right because don't you hate it when you're reading a book and it's just so predictable you know exactly what's going to happen don't you love it when you change chapter you're like whoa i didn't realize whoa okay right you just you're fall so in love with it because of the astonishment and the surprise same thing with your life be so careful that we don't end up rewriting the same darn chapter over and over and over again and wonder why we're miserable is because we're repeating behaviors from a past chapter that served us at some point because i want to share some love to my my fellow introverts out there because some people go oh but i'm really quiet and i hate that quiet part about it no don't don't be upset about that because at some point that quiet behavior served you that's why you did it for me it was because i was being bullied so being quiet being smaller means you didn't get picked on and it worked so it served you in a chapter of life the danger is you take the behaviors from a previous chapter and you continue to repeat them in every single future chapter when you've already entered a new environment you've stepped into a different part of your life so i think i think just don't be so attached to who you are in the process present give the future version of your chance because you could look good in flares yeah it could come back which it kind of has yeah yeah it kind of has it kind of has yeah yeah this episode is brought to you by peloton somewhere in a run things get fun you stop counting you stop trying you're just present weightless wide open more alive than you've been all day that's the run doing what it does clearing the noise loosening the grip the day had on you reminding you what your body's capable of when you finally let it go there and now that feeling fits wherever you need it to the new peloton tread flex is designed to fit your life movable and foldable so you can run walk or hike when you need to and roll it away when you don't and with expert instructors and classes for every level peloton gives you the right guidance for wherever you are whether you're just starting out training for a marathon or looking to build strength and push your pace let yourself run explore the new peloton tread flex at onepeloton.com let's talk about introverts a bit i imagine there are a lot of people who identify as being introverts who come to you come to your work who really get lots of value from this book who who come to our show to understand how they can improve their life how they can be better if someone feels that they're constantly interrupted in the workplace what do they do so that people actually stop and listen the reason why i also believe people interrupt is because you're easy to interrupt that's why they do it if you're not easy to interrupt you're not easy to interrupt you're not easy to interrupt you're not easy to interrupt at least you're making you're creating more friction if they do want to interrupt you so there's there's two things i think of i think of visual presence and vocal presence tell me about those well if you've got low vocal presence that means i've got a really quiet volume so i could be sharing an idea like this so vocally i've got very low levels of presence and then again if body language wise if i've got really small body language again you know your shoulders come in and your hands are in your lap they're not above the table and i've got an idea i'd love to share with you uh jay i think it's i think it's a good idea to share with you uh jay i think it's a good really powerful if we created some funny skits for the book launch that version of me is so easy to interrupt so easy to interrupt so when i think about if you want to stop people from interrupting you regardless of whether you're an introvert or an extrovert it's really about you learning how to radiate more vocal presence and visual presence so if you're in a meeting and you don't want people to interrupt you stand when it's your turn to talk and people go oh but it's weird if everyone's sitting and it's only weird if you're sitting and you're not sitting and you're not sitting and you're not if you make it weird so before you stand you can simply say hey everyone i've been sitting all day do you mind if i stand while i share my ideas oh of course they're not gonna say sit down but no one stands in this meeting so you stand so you stand so guess what when you're standing visual presence hand gestures elbows away from your body speaking with hand gestures strong levels of volume give good eye contact as you're sharing an idea share and pause and when you're standing and you pause no one interrupts you why because we all understand if that person's still standing still talking often people interrupt you again not only because you're easy to interrupt but because they think you're done so i think you have to give visual signals and auditory signals that, Hey, I'm in command right now. Hey, I have the authority right now. And I'm the one that's still speaking. So I think simple things you can do immediately is enhance the vocal presence and physical presence. And that's that elusive thing people call like executive presence. It's just voice and body. Tell me about the physical presence piece, because I feel most people, even if they stand up, they put their hands down by their side. And you've, I've seen this in your videos and what not to do. Yeah. What not to do. And so talk to me about visual presence, because I think vocal presence, we understand we can speak louder. I believe we understand tone a bit better than we understand the body because we hear tone and we feel tone. If you want to add more emotion into your voice, move your face. So your face is the remote control that adds emotion into your voice. Tell me more about that before we do vocal. Cause I like that. What's the thing that people are afraid of a monotone voice. What they don't realize is a monotone. Well, try, try, try this with me. Okay. I've, uh, I've got a, I've got a dog. His name's and he's never met a shoe. He doesn't love to eat. Okay. So it's a love hate relationship with my dog. So I want you to in a moment with your hands, palm face up. I want you to say link, stop doing that. Okay. So, so my dog's name is link. So say link, stop doing that. I'll count you down with your hand face up. So in three, two, one go link, stop doing that. Perfect. Now I want you to just pay attention to how your voice sounded. Now I want you to do it again, but I want you to cross your hands forward like this palms face down. So say the same thing. Link, stop doing that hands face down. Okay. So in three, two, link, stop doing that. Do you notice what happened to your voice? A hundred percent. It was stronger. It was louder. Even as I was thinking about it. Yeah. Even when you were saying to me what to do, even when I was thinking about it, I was like, I know I'm going to do this differently already. Exactly. What that proves is that I didn't tell you what to do with your voice, but what it tells us is that universally, no matter where I go in the world and I do this, there's a difference. It teaches us the lesson that your, your voice is connected to your body and your body's connected to your voice. So everyone's afraid of this monotone voice without realizing that a monotone voice comes from a monotone body. Face is a part of body language. So let's talk about face, right? Yes. The thing that people fall victim to is an RBF. You can Google what that means if you want, but we'll just say it's a resting blank face. So if I've got a resting blank face, now all of a sudden you don't hear many emotions from me. It's because I'm not showing any emotion, but the moment I smile, your face is the remote control. And I think that is such an important layer of communication because people are looking to your face for the kind, what you're saying. Yes. So is this person happy about what they said? Are they frustrated about it? And when we know this from body language experts all around the world, that people believe your body language more than they believe the words, because it's easy to lie without words, harder to lie with your body language. Because our face gives it away as well. We're used to that. Yeah, it does. And that's how we sense things, right? That's why we're so afraid of psychopaths because they're able to be a cunning individual while smiling at you. So that disconnect creates so much fear in us because, oh my goodness, I'm so afraid of psychopaths. And that's why we're so afraid of psychopaths. And that's why we're so scared. But I think beware of not stretching your face and using your face, falling victim to RBF because you've never learned the value of emoting with your face. So then you fall victim to RBF. I had RBF for a very long time in my life. And here's the clue. If you're a fellow RBF-er, people always come to you and say, hey, is everything all right? When you feel completely fine, when you're completely fine, they're like, hey, is everything okay? Yeah. It used to happen to me all the time. And I'm like, I'm having a really good day. And now I'm pissed because everybody's asking me this. So now I'm annoyed. But it's because your face is communicating all the time. Yes. So I think that that's a really important part of communication is that, you know, if you want more authority, then maybe you should have a more of a serious face. But for some people, they're always smiling. And then they ask me, they go, Vin, people don't take me seriously because you never look serious. And then as a result of you never looking serious, you never sound serious. Whereas I can create a very serious sound if I start to use assertive body language and I start to be more still with my face. Notice that crazy switch, right? And then I smile and it all goes away. Yes. And then there's people who say to me, Vin, people take me so seriously. They never have fun with me. I try to get them to open up. They never do. I'm like, because you're always trying to David Goggin their ass, right? So stop trying to do that. Yeah. But we don't have awareness. And we don't have awareness, Jay, because if these are behaviors you've been repeating, you're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. For 20 years, they've moved from your conscious mind to your subconscious mind and anything that becomes automatic behaviors that become automatic in your subconscious mind now become invisible. That's why I left a lot of blank pages in the book too, right? Not just to make it thick and feel substantial, but rather I want people to go on a journey of self-discovery. Often you see other people communicate and you make judgments about other people. Oh, that person either good or bad. Oh, great communicator. Oh, they seem a bit bossy. When's the last time you saw yourself speak? What do you do with your face? I want you to get super excited and interested in you, right? Don't look to me for the answers of what you should be doing with your communication skills. Look within yourself and how you're currently playing your instrument. There's no one better to help you unlock you than you, right? And that's why what I do in the book is I get them to record a before video right at the start. And then in every chapter, we learn one and then we review that one lesson with you. Yeah, huge. So that you're not overwhelmed. You're not thinking about 10 vocal things and five body language things at once. No, no. One vocal foundation at a time. Okay. How do you use that currently? Oh, I don't use that at all. Cool. Maybe it's time to introduce a little more melody in your voice. That's why at the end of it, I hope you fill the whole book and you write down a list that was made for you, that was written by you for you. Yes. No, that's really strong. And I can't wait for people to work on that in the book. It does require that much attention. I remember my parents were really scared I was going to be shy. So I went to public speaking drama school from age 11 to age 18. And so every one of my public speaking skills was learned during that time. And then I spent time studying people that I loved watching. And it was fascinating to me because even after doing that, the first time I was filmed, for some reason, this is what I did every time. So I love this idea of filming yourself. And I'm so glad you help people in the book, focus on one thing. You film yourself. And I kept doing this. I'd go, Hey, Vin, how's it going? Hope you're doing well today. It's great to have you here. And I'm really happy that we're both connecting today. It's so great to have you on the podcast. And so I just kept doing this. And it was totally kind of clapping, but, and almost like now that we're here together and then, you know, and it was so cringy to watch. And the reason I'm saying that to people after going through seven years of public speaking for another three to four years after that multiple stages. And I felt really good about myself. But when I filmed myself for the first time, I saw that that was my most natural thing to do. Now, whether I was nervous that day or the video camera scared me or whatever it was, the point is, if I didn't see it, I would never have been cognizant of it. And I would never have been conscious of why I moved my hand that way. This idea of filming yourself and then adapting, I think is so big and even listening to yourself. And I know people always say this, I hate my voice. I hate the sound of my voice. What do we do? We seem to hate the sound of our voice. We seem to hate the way we use our hands and the way we look. What do we do? Why do we hate ourselves? But what do we do about it? That's a deep question. It's a really deep question. But from a communication standpoint. Yeah. From a communication standpoint, yeah. Otherwise we're going into deep life philosophy. I feel that the reason why we hate the way we sound is because when you hear yourself in your own head, you're hearing your voice vibrate through muscle tissue and bone tissue, which creates a more resonant, deeper, richer sound. So to all of us, we sound like Barry White. So you hear yourself, ooh, it's like a sexy, deep voice. And then when you hear yourself in a recording, you're not hearing it through the medium of muscle and bone tissue. You're now hearing your voice through the medium of air. So you're hearing the vibration of, and then when it hits your eardrums through the medium of air, it sounds high pitch. So when you hear yourself, you think, oh God, I don't sound like that. What the hell? It's not that dramatic, but you think to yourself, that's crazy. I don't sound like that. So that difference, causes, causes us to shy away from ever listening. Problem number one already. I'm so glad I asked you that. I never thought about it. That's such a great answer. But that's the reason why. And then the way we look is because where do you look to do your hair every day? Where do you look to do that? The mirror. The mirror. But the mirror is not how other people see you. The mirror flips you. Whereas people see you the other way around. So when you see yourself on video, you're seeing yourself the way everybody sees you, not the way you see yourself in the mirror. So now you hit twice. That doesn't sound like me. Why do I? Because nobody's face is perfect. Symmetrical. So you see it flip. You're like, why is, why is that face? What I thought. And then that freaks people out. So now they completely avoid ever listening to themselves or looking at themselves. It's why we don't have that self-awareness. So now that you know this, you're not allowed to avoid it anymore. You're not allowed to avoid it anymore. You have to do it. And you'll be shocked because in five to 10 reps of doing this, you'll normalize it. Yes. Your ear starts to just acclimate. It recalibrates and you're like, okay, that's how I sound. But it's that initial shock without the knowledge that causes people to shy away from it. So don't shy away from it. You sound great. You look great. Learn to love what you got. What do you do when someone puts you on the spot and your mind goes blank? Like now? Did I just do that to you? I was like, I just flipped it. I had to ask you that at a shock moment. I was like, he's too prepared. Pause. That's what I'm doing right now. I'm giving myself a moment to pause. Why? Because I'm collecting my thoughts. Another tip I can do, just trying to talk through exactly how I'm going to do it, context are you sharing this question so if someone asked you a question what context would you like me to give you some thoughts on this there's two things that came to mind so the first one was you're at a networking event or a social gathering everyone's going around and introducing themselves and saying something fun about themselves like a fun fact okay so we're going around and like hey i'm jay this is my fun fact uh and this is what i do hey i'm vin this is my fun fact this is what i do something like that that kind of moment where it feels like the spotlight's on you everyone's listening and it's your moment to shine i gave you part of the strategy in me role playing with you in this moment so the first thing is you pause the second thing is you can ask a question to clarify the question they just asked you so that you can answer it in more depth to be able to add more value what am i doing in all of this time i'm now going to be able to answer a question that adds more value and i'm i've got time now i can think about what it is that i want to say you you bought yourself time i bought myself time and i bought myself clarity yes which is even more important which is even more important because the reason we also go blank is because someone has asked you a bad question they've asked you a question that is so high level oh thanks no my pleasure my pleasure my feedback yeah live feedback we often go blank because it's not a bad question it was just such a wide question that causes you to go blank because you're now thinking wait in what scenario are they talking about this this is a work scenario this is a friend scenario is this a networking so then your brain starts to race and you free count then you go blank so then to me in moments where you start to feel that recognize that and instead of reaching for an answer straight away reach for specificity so someone asks you haven't how's the marketing campaign going is there a part of the marketing campaign specifically you'd like to give me thoughts me to share some thoughts with you on yeah actually vin is the instagram one i want to focus on is there something particular there too actually vin the organic post not the ads you've just helped create more clarity in that communication than if you just answered off the cuff and you saved you both of you time yes whereas i think a lot of people sometimes ask questions without clarity themselves so you're doing both parties a favor you're buying yourself time i think another practical tip as well is the networking one in particular that you say my friends make sure you've got five interesting things about you in your back pocket ready to go at all times being a great networker requires you to be able to communicate that in 30 seconds preparation that's all about preparation so don't wait until the moment to to go oh i can't think on the spot nobody does anybody who's great at it on the spot they've had that conversation before yes they've said it before and that's why they've mastered it that's why it seems so effortless to just have five things in your back pocket ready to go so again just in summation the the tactic there when you go blank a pause recollect take that panic and turn it into clarity and follow up with a couple questions and then answer the question the person wanted and you both win and you get to move past that freezing moment and you get to move past that moment with ease and elegance and you say oh that person's such a pro nope they just got more clarity yeah i like that and then if they ask a lot of clarity and you don't know the answer then you're screwed yeah yeah now you're screwed yeah now now now run and on the other side be as prepared as vin is for the apocalypse like be as prepared because that's how it feels in that moment when the spotlight's on you so you just talked about the power of a pause which we talked about last time and so we have that and people can go back and watch that but this idea of a power of a pause how do we not feel the pressure to fill silences in a conversation i feel like if something goes quiet we all feel like we're responsible or this is boring or this is we're not really connecting when actually pause can be really powerful especially if someone's thinking or reflecting i find that people tend to feel that because they're just unfamiliar with it that's all the feelings of that is really strong when you're just really unfamiliar with the pause and that's what i hear from students who don't pause that's what i hear from students who are uncomfortable with it because they're unfamiliar with it it's the same thing it's we bring it back to close right i used to think wearing something like this is too loud oh this is crazy i can't wear that whereas now i'm more familiar i love it when i get to wear something that stands out a little bit right i really enjoy it it's the same thing wearing glasses with a bit of silver on the side i used to think oh that's too much too flashy he's gonna shut now i like it you've got to become more familiar with it if you want to be comfortable with you've got to become more familiar with it if you want to be comfortable with it could be exercising it could be journaling it could be any practice how do you become more comfortable with it do it more it's such an unsexy answer that people don't want to hear but that's how you become more comfortable is you become more familiar and then here's the cherry on top so once you become more comfortable you become more familiar guess what now it's just something you do because it's a part of who you are whereas we're so quick to go no i feel weird doing it because you haven't done it enough and again it's that attachment to our current selves so that we never give that future version a chance you gotta give that a go you gotta write some new chapters if you don't like the chapter stop rewriting it i think people need to realize like like the journey of me writing this book and i'm so excited about your book too because when you're writing a book the coolest feeling is when you go i can end this chapter whenever i want i can make this story mean whatever i want so while we can't control what happens we can't control what happens we can't control what happens we can't control what happens to us in life we can control what those stories mean if i'm tired of this chapter of talking about the pause i can just start a new chapter i hope people realize that a lot of people now have given away their pens take your pen back you're the author of your own story you're the author you get to decide when you want to write a new chapter you get to decide when you end new chapter you get to decide you get to decide how you use your voice in the future chapters how you storytell how you listen even if you haven't listened well for 40 years of your life and you didn't make people feel seen and loved and cared for start now it's not too late you've got many chapters left learn chapters where you're the you're the most beautiful listener in your group in your in your friendship ring where you're the most charismatic where you get to own the attention even if you didn't for the last 40 years i think people too easily give away their pens you write my story you tell me what i can't do you tell me what i can't do you tell me what i can't do you tell me what this story means i love the idea of taking an idea from the book and then practicing it for seven days like the idea of taking a tool and saying this is what i'm going to be for the next seven days i'm going to be a great listener i'm going to practice just speaking in this way i'm going to play with i love that idea because i think that is how the way you build a full toolkit is that you're going to practice these small tools week on week on week on week until they compound can you sound confident when you're nervous think of these three words we've got look feel and sound which one do you think is the hardest to control either the way you look the way you feel and the way you sound feel correct i believe that too i might be wrong you might be wrong that's what i believe when you want to be more confident which one do you reach for i wish i felt more confident yes so we go for the thing that's the hardest to reach for so in a moment before i wish i felt more confident before a date i wish i felt more confident what so you're reaching for emotional mastery which very few people have in the world the most difficult thing to do what's easier to reach for the way you look and the way you sound so you can sound more confident right you can we all can so if you're speaking at a very low volume there's less there's less resonance in your body you feel less powerful because there's less vibration in you increase your volume a little move it from a three to a five so voice right you can do more volume more melody play with the keys a little more be a little more playful more pauses right simple things you can do with your voice you can control that way more easily than feeling the way you look posture shoulders down and back smile on your face good eye contact so as you start to control the way you look and the way you you sound inevitably it impacts the way you feel because now you're sending so many signals to your brain that i'm confident i'm confident i'm confident so once you change the way you look it has an impact on the way you feel once you change the way you sound it has an impact on the way you feel that's how you influence the feeling of the other person and that's how you influence the way you feel that's how you influence by going for the easier choices yes i can agree more so reach for that so when i'm backstage i'm talking to myself i'm i'm a little louder i'm moving my body and then as i come out i focus on those two things and the feeling comes through you're making me remember two moments in my life where so the first was this is before i have released a single piece of content online so we're talking about 2014 which is what like 12 years ago i'd been asked to speak in front of a summer company event i don't have any clout or standing or authority in the company i'm at the same level as everyone else in the audience if not everyone in the audience is more senior to me at the company i've been at the company for like six months but because i was able to teach meditation and mindfulness and because i was doing well in my role i was asked to speak and so anyway i'm speaking in front of a thousand people and i'm right in between the company uk ceo and the rugby world cup winner will greenwood and i'm watching them and i'm just thinking gosh what am i going to say to keep everyone's attention i'm nervous i'm really nervous i'm really really nervous and you're so right i couldn't change how i felt because i couldn't convince myself that i deserve to be on the stage because i've been asked to be there because i am but then there's the ceo and a an athlete who's won a world championship okay there's no comparison like i couldn't convince myself that i felt better about it and all i could do was what you said change your look i changed my voice and your sound and so my look i changed my body language i started to breathe up straight i started to not feel like i was slouched on my chair watching going oh god this is going to be a nightmare and all of a sudden i just said i'm going to go back to the room let me just stand up straight let me feel better from the way i look changing my look and from a sound point of view i was like i'm going to go there i'm going to start really strong because i feel if i win them in the first 30 seconds then i'll be okay so i was practicing my first 30 seconds again and again and again and again and again so that i would sound strong and you're spot on i went up there i felt like i killed it and the feedback i got was jay we've never heard a thousand people be that pin drop silent in a meditation session and the feedback we got was insane and just and it felt so good and i was like the feeling comes after yeah the feeling doesn't come before and so i gave that example 2014 2023 i went on my first world tour three years ago before the first show i was so stressed my heart was beating fast i was like i was feeling like i was about to throw up at this point i've spoken on stages for 20 years and i'm still stressed out and i still felt not confident me too and i couldn't do anything about it and the only thing i could change was how i stood backstage how my breathing and nailing the first 30 seconds which has always been my two ways of doing it i know that if i start strong i feel great and i know if i stand up straight that even though the superman pose has been debunked and whatever it may be it works for me yeah it works for me too and and so i'm like if i can do those two things and i can breathe then i'm pretty good and i've realized that i still turn to those after all these years of having spoken on stages to tens of thousands of people and do this professionally get paid to do it and so just to give everyone a bit of you know hopefully a bit of feeling relatable that it's not like a one day you just walk on stage and you don't feel anything what was the first thing i did when i came to this studio do you remember what i did i went to the toilet yeah because i'm nervous because i'm freaking out all right i feel the same thing right even though we know each other we're friends we're doing this i still felt nervous yeah yeah so i think a lot of it is again you focus on voice body language let's meet jay where he is and and be there be playful connect there's a beautiful uh quote by coach john wooden that wraps up this this little part really beautifully where he says if you focus on the things you can't control you'll soon lose control of the things you can control so then you put it in the context of confidence if you keep trying to focus on the thing you can't control which is your feeling and you keep pinpointing on that then you lose control of voice and body language that's when you see people go out there and voice is shaking now and body language is it's because you're focusing on the wrong thing you're focusing on things you can't control and that's such a fractal lesson in life you know i think it's it's it's often when i think about my life and the problems i'm going through i always pull out to that fractal lesson of yeah well what can i actually do i can't control myself i can't control yes so i'll focus on things i can't control and when it comes to communication it's your voice and your body language it's why it's the first two parts of the book i focus so much on it and goes in so much detail on it because let's just learn how to use the instrument yes once and for all and then once you learn how to play it play all the notes do every gesture and then work out no that's not me i'm not going to do that's okay but at least give it all a go learn the full array of notes and moves that you can you can do i love that we're going to go into a segment when uh which we started doing called real life scenarios i love it this new segment yeah these are scenarios sent in from our audience who are listening and so things that they're going through where communication could help them okay so then this is the first one i'm great at texting someone before a date but in person i get nervous and suddenly feel like i have nothing interesting to say how do i stop getting in my head i haven't dated since 2009 so please take this with a bucket of salt okay because if i'm going on a date now i probably would suck you know what this is what i would say i don't think you would oh well thank you for saying that i hopefully don't have to i love my wife very much i know she's listening i love you pay when but what i'll say here is go in with high low buffalo do exactly what jay and i did break the mold don't go into it and it's the classic oh how's your day going oh it's fun nice to meet you oh what do you do for work just straight in with high low buffalo nothing work related go in with that and then immediately create six threads because the the beauty of high low buffalo is that no one's going to say anything they're not interested in yes so that means you now know three things that matter to them and there's also vulnerability baked into it so what does that mean if you pull on that thread it's going to be the deepest conversation you have on a date now you get to know what they're proud of what they're struggling with and you also get to know something really interesting about them that conversation can go in six ways now you'll never run out of things to talk about because maybe you pull on the thread that oh you know that mentor of yours i could ask now more stories about that mentor it was there a moment that that meant the most to you now we're in a whole new realm so i think there's there's so much there who are the other friends that are there if you have to pick one more person who else is meaningful boom we can go there hello buffalo and i could ask you about your friend who's going through cancer or your cousin and how you first found out about it yes and how is it going now like we could have had the whole podcast just based on that conversation i found out about it the last time i got on a plane to la to do the podcast with you no i literally was on the plane she texted me as i took off to do the pod with you no way but but you see that moment we just had there yeah where did that come from it came from a moment where we created the space and we made it okay for us to both share something vulnerable again not a dating expert but i would say hello buffalo that yeah and then you can thank me later and get three copies of the book give one to your friends yeah yeah all right second one when my partner and i argue i feel like neither of us is actually hearing what the other person is saying we just keep trying to get our own point across how do you communicate so the other person hears what you actually mean don't attack them talk to the situation that is currently happening in front of you speak to the situation so separate the behavior from them and talk to the situation and then speak to how you feel and don't point that at the other person and attack them i think we tend to attack each other when we're trying to explain feelings especially with with partners so i think so much of it is separated from the other person and the other person and the other person they don't talk about the situation how it makes you feel i think on the receiving end if you want to make your partner feel more heard i know it sounds so basic it's so trite that it's almost upsetting and offensive reflect no it's true learn to just reflect learn to just say hey i i can tell from you saying that it seems like you're really upset just just reflect back the emotion reflect back some of the words that's how you make them feel heard and if you want to be heard make sure you be careful you're not attacking the person and make sure you're addressing the situation i think that that's how i think about it when i go into arguments it's not you i'm angry with it's unfortunately i'm really upset with the situation that's happened between us so i separate that i think it's funny because we've heard it for a while but i don't think we practice it and that's usually the best advice in the world is advice you've heard a million times it stood the test of time but we're not doing it yeah i still don't sometimes yeah no sometimes you know same me too no but i'm just like i don't think it's trite at all okay two more i'm confident one-on-one but in meetings with a lot of people i barely speak i have good ideas and things i want to say but i get so nervous that i end up never saying anything how do i get better at speaking up learn communication frameworks because the thing about people who are in technical roles in particular i feel this comes from a technical person is that we feel that the only form of value is in me explaining how exactly how everything works and the more i talk the more value i'm giving it's not true in a meeting environment if you're sitting there with other leaders the most valuable thing you can give there is distillation and clarity and i think a very simple framework to to just kick you off with is just start with the word hey if there's one thing i wanted to share if there's one thing i had to share would be this and just share one thing start with just sharing one thing but that way when you're sharing it with those very words hey if i could share one thing share one thing and then it's because of the way the sentence is structured you're protecting yourself from rambling because you're only sharing one thing so then you're clear you're concise you're coherent that's how you start the journey so begin by just saying hey i'd like to share one thing and then share just that one thing yes so start with that and then look into communication frameworks i've got so many on my youtube channel so go look up the communication frameworks because if you are winging it you're going to ramble you're going to go blank and you're probably going to say things that are unnecessary it's not coherent and then people look at that as oh you're not very competent oh you're all over the place you're a to start with leading with one thing and just share one thing in every conversation just go hey i'd love to share a thought and then share one thought the reason why that's a really big takeaway is because i think we listen more when there's a headline before an explanation and i feel i listen better that way too so when you said there's just one thing i'm ready i'm prepared and when we think about headlines you think about social media you see a massive headline and then it says link in bio and then you go click on it because you want to know more or you see a thumbnail and a title on youtube and you click it or whatever it may be and so i feel what we don't do in communication is actually what every other form of communication that gets our attention is headlines get attention so if someone said to me i figured it out all of a sudden i'm like all right let's let's hear what you have to say but if they just said so i think this idea is uh really good yeah yeah and it's like okay now i'm i'm yeah i'm out or if they say something i'm thinking is it's like but i don't know why i should value what you're thinking whereas it's like if the headline was i put aside three hours yesterday i figured out the first three parts here's what i learned all of a sudden i'm listening because i get why i should listen to you and i think a lot of us don't headline and as soon as you did that i was like oh got it what you were doing there as well as you're making declarative statements declarative sentences right there's two ways to think about this oh what are the two ways to think about this so again if it's not one thing you can go well there's one thing i love to share there's one thought i love to share there's two ways to think about this approach or you can simply say hey there are three steps to how we'll get a higher return on ad spend. Now they want to listen to it because you've created structure. So the structure not only helps you, I love what you said, Jay, the structure also makes people now want to lean in. The worst one is when there's no structure and you're all over the place. So learn to make declarative statements, short sentences that are punchy and start with that. And there's a really careful thing you want to be careful of. Who are the people who get promoted the most at work? The people who are the most visible. Who are the people who are the most visible? The people who communicate and contribute during meetings. So the reason you're pissed off because Barry got the promotion and you didn't get the promotion is because Barry, though not as smart as you, is more visible than you. And Barry always talks in teams meetings and shares things in a coherent, concise, and clear way. So as you learn to do this more, you will be able to be more visible. You'll start to get the opportunities. Otherwise, Barry's going to keep taking your job, mate. Barry's going to keep getting it. And you're going to hate Barry more and more and more. And you're better looking than Barry. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, ah, damn you, Barry. It's funny how in a workplace environment, if you talk too much and it's not useful, it works against you. It does. And if you talk too little, of course, that's not useful anyway. And you're invisible. And then it's that balance between talking about the right thing at the right time in the right way is such a profound thing. And I notice it all the time when I'm working with people. I'm like, okay, I know if I spent 30 minutes, I'm going to get so much value. And I know if I spend 10 minutes with you, I'm going to feel like we need to move on because I'm not getting value. And I think you feel that as a leader, you feel that as a person, you feel that as a team player. And I think that's on us to be like, I only want to share that, which is truly critical and important with the right people. And there's another underlying thing here, I think worth mentioning. And it's really just that the people who don't say anything, they have the mindset of, I want to wait for someone, to recognize the greatness that I have within the contributions that I've made. And it's a really sincere thing. It is. It's because I don't want to gloat. I don't want to, I don't want to be like Barry, who's always talking, right? Sorry to all the Barry's out there. Just pick the name. It's your responsibility to shine your light as opposed to waiting for someone to discover your light. You shine it. I love that quote by Steve Martin, who says, be so good. They can't ignore you. Shine your light so brightly. The world can not ignore the gifts and talents that you have. Stop waiting for your manager to see it. Show it, share it, spread it. And I think that's such an important thing. Framework. So, so that instead of winging it, you now have something to fall back on, but you've got someone to get you started. I'm fine once I know someone, but I hate walking into a party where I don't know anyone. I never know how to join a conversation without feeling awkward. What do I actually do? Oh, this is so basic. It's going to upset so many people. I love being able to do this with a simple, a smile on your face. You step in and you say the very simple words. That's it. I don't overcomplicate this. I don't have some genius way, some genius phrase of stepping into a conversation. No, he's just, Hey, do you mind if I join the conversation? But again, I'm not, I'm not, do you mind if I join the conversation? No, no, no. Cause no one wants that person to join the conversation, but it's like, there's a slight hesitance to my voice is, Hey, do you mind if I join the conversation? And then when you join the conversation, be prepared. Because they're going to go, yeah, of course, Vin, come join us. Hey, what are they going to say first? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Now, if you haven't prepared for that, now you're going to go, oh, damn Vin, that was really bad. Prepare. Have a one minute thing that you share about yourself, right? And then jump in. So be prepared, have those things in your pocket. Keep it simple. Don't overcomplicate it. There's no magic thing. And as you do this, you'll find nine times out of 10, people will welcome you with open arms, but beware 1% of people out there are wankers. Yeah. And you will encounter them and they're going to go, nah, mate, private conversation. Don't let that stop you because nine other groups will say, yeah, come in, come join us. So I think it's a, it's a preparation and just don't let the one wanker stop you from doing it. I think there's so much to be said for sharing your intention with someone when you're at something like that. Even when you walk into a party and you walk up to someone and say, Hey, I don't know anyone here. And that just automatically connects you and makes you feel safe because chances are, you're going to be the one that's going to be the one that's going to be Oh, or know someone at the event or at the party who will be like, Oh, you don't know anyone. Let me introduce you to a few people. You know, it's just, it's rare. And don't go up to the person who's ignoring you and not looking at you and not making eye contact. Like, yeah, don't go to the person that. Write what Jay just said down too. He was like, Hey, I don't know anyone here. Pair them both, combo it because of a little vulnerability. Oh gosh, you'll find people just take you in. Totally. They'll just take you in. Yeah. And then just be prepared to share something about yourself and then join the conversation, meet them where they are. Yeah. So take everything you've learned from this episode so far and meet them where they are. If they're a giggly group, be fun, be playful, lean into that. How do you politely leave a conversation without being rude? Based on what they're talking about. So say they're talking about their, their Labradoodle and they couldn't stop talking about Labradoodle. And you're like, Oh man, I don't want to hear anything about this Labradoodle that Vin got from, from Texas. That's where I got my dog from. And you just go, I don't want to hear about this anymore. So what you do is first thing reflect by the last thing you said, Oh, you know, that's wild that your Labradoodle came from Texas. Hey, I've got to go, but I want to ask you one more thing about your Labradoodle. Ask one more question about the darn dog. Okay. Do you have a picture? Can you show me a picture of the dog? But what you've done there now is you reflected back first to let them know, Hey, I've been listening. I know they came from Texas. They go, Oh, I feel heard. Second thing is you go, Hey, I've got to go right. Time constraint, polite. But I, but before I go, I want to ask you one more thing. It has this beauty to it where it's, Hey, I've been listening. I want to continue the conversation in a way, but I also have to go. So to me, it's just such a beautiful and polite way to, to leave with grace, elegance, kindness, you know, even though you don't want to talk about dogs anymore, it's a beautiful way to be able to signal the gotta go. Yeah. That's really good. I really like that. Yeah. As opposed to the classic gotta go. This has been terribly boring. Yeah. Right. And I know people who do that. Or like, thank you so much. Take care. Oh, you gotta go. I gotta go to the toilet. And then they see you not go to the toilet. And then you just go straight and you speak to Steve. Yeah. Like, ah, you bastard. Right. So I think that's a really elegant way to do it. And then vacate the room so they can't see you. Yeah. And then leave. It's funny how these are such like the simple things. Oh, it's so simple. That we all need, not, not the tools. The tools are simple enough to practice, but it's so interesting that we all deal with this on a daily basis yet. We don't know what to do. And we carry so much stress and anxiety about the things that shouldn't matter. Like these are not the things we should be worrying about. Like life has, everyone has so many problems and challenges and worries in life. We shouldn't be worrying about how to say, I gotta go because I need to go somewhere. Go somewhere and not be rude, but these are the things we carry in our minds or we shouldn't have to worry in a meeting. Like, oh, how do I get my point across when these are things that we should, we can figure out. And that's what this book does. That's what your work does. And just know that even if you're not a great communicator at the moment, that's not how you have to be for the rest of this journey. You know, these are simple skills. It's why I love, you know, past part of my life was I was a magician and in the world of magic, you know, the, the, the most disappointing thing about magic is when you discover how the trick is done. There's a lesson in that is that the most complicated things have the simplest solutions. And it's why people say a magician guards, an empty treasure chest, because all you find in there is disappointment. So we guard you from that. Don't look in. Otherwise you're going to be disappointed. Same thing with life. So many of the things we suffer from when it comes to communication, a little volume, a slight pause, reflecting time, constraint question, leave such simple solutions that as you learn, them, it will enhance your life dramatically. Whereas sometimes we sit in a state of confusion thinking, Oh, I'm broken. There's something wrong with me. No, no, no, nothing wrong with you. You're capable. You just haven't learned how. So go learn how and discover what you're truly capable of in this life. What chapters you are yet to write that are bloody exciting and filled with connection and fulfillment and depth and meaning it awaits you. Then well said, what have I not asked you about this book that you'd love to share that a story and experience. I think a big thing that this book has allowed me to do, Jay, is to share some of the more vulnerable stories that I have in my life. I've always thought of the way I can add my or share my light with the world is to add a light that spreads joy, lots of love, kindness, compassion, and playfulness. I'm on the journey of learning how to share stories at times that are, they're just sad sometimes, Jay. Sometimes there's no solution to them. Sometimes there's ones that I'm still working through. And I think this book has strangely enough allowed me to write some stories in it that, that still hurt, that I'm not really able to share verbally and out loud yet, but I was able to write them down because I felt safe doing that. It was in me recognizing that, gosh, that's a genre of music that I often don't play. You know, I've, I've overvalued positivity, joy and playfulness, that there's a whole category of music that I've never really played in my life that I never really played openly. So to me, this was the first step in being able to share some of those harder songs. and play some of those harder songs is my first step towards that. And I hope people, as they read that, they'll learn more about my heart and hopefully it gets them to also go, well, what songs haven't I played? Because for some people, it's the opposite. So for some people, they played those songs that have hurt, but they haven't discovered the songs that bring joy, the songs that bring lightness. And my hope is that you get to, you know, in my kids' playroom in my office, I've got this big neon sign that says, taste all the flavors, play all the songs, I hope that for my readers, I hope that for our listeners of this podcast, is that they taste all the flavors, play all the music in you before time runs out. So die with no music left. Ever on the book, it's called Before We Forget How To Connect by Vin Jiang. Go and grab your copy right now. Vin, thank you so much for sharing your insights, your wisdom, your heart. Thank you. And I can't wait for people to dive into these pages and discover not only tools and techniques, but as you said, stories that you haven't yet shared, with the world. And thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I hope they get three. You said one. I love it. Why say one, say three. Yeah, get three. One for you, one for your partner. And one for someone you meet on the street. Yeah. I love it. Congrats, Vin. Thanks, Jay. 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