Speaker 1Do you want a hot take from the world-class vibe coder that works at the two-year-old $13 billion AI company? I mean, of course you do.
Speaker 2We are not naturally gifted to talk to AI. So if you find good moments of inspiration where you feel like, oh, I just prompted this exactly the way I would want to prompt it every time, or like, oh, I finally figured it out, record it, save it as a skill, put it in your project knowledge, put it somewhere so that you build a repeatable system that is not dependent on whether it's 10 a.m. after a hungover night or 10 p.m. after an extremely long day at work. In both of those extremes, you will probably not be able to produce your best. So my hack is actually cloning the best version of myself and placing it in such a way that I can just forward slash invoke it whenever I need it. I challenge anyone to come to me and tell me that they are writing more than 5% or 10% of their code by hand. I think most people don't do it at all. Today on In the Blink of AI, we have Lazar
Speaker 1from Lovable who said, if your AI output is garbage, it's your fault. We start the episode with like the AI hack of the week, but then get straight into roasting my vibe coded website live. Lazar said, AI never tell us you, your idea is stupid, but your mates do. I mean, I guess I'll choose not to take that personally, but seriously, Lazar was incredible. This was such an entertaining and honest chat with things that I think will stick in my brain for a long time. He's generated 38,000 prompts and counting. He knows what he's talking about. Side note, guys, I love how many of you are listening to the episodes. I can see the recent numbers. It's incredible, but only 10% of you have clicked that subscribe button on Spotify. Apple podcasts, YouTube, and frankly, it's a weekly show. AI is moving really quickly. If you miss an episode and it's someone that you would have loved to listen to, chances are things have moved a lot since then. So if you click the button, you'll be first to find out when an episode comes out and we have some pretty incredible guests lined up behind the scenes. So don't say I didn't warn you, but until then the 0.1% best vibe coder on the planet, let's go. You're listening to a day one dot FM show. In the Blink of AI is proudly sponsored by Deal, the global HR and payroll platform that's behind the expansion of companies like Revolut, Shopify, or fans of the show 11 Labs who quadrupled their workforce in 54 countries. Build your global team with Deal. Lizar, thank you so much for joining in the Blink of AI. I have actually been aware of you, seen you quoted in many articles before. It's a real pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1We always start in the Blink of AI with an AI hack of the week. What's your hack of the week?
Speaker 2I want to say it's probably leveraging skills, leveraging project knowledge, working with drafts like really trying to amplify what's good and what you know works and in a way eliminate yourself out of the equation as much as possible. I think one thing that I always emphasize to people is that we are not naturally gifted to talk to AI. So if you find good moments of inspiration where you feel like, oh, I just prompted this exactly the way I would want to prompt it every time or like, oh, I finally figured it out, record it, save it as a skill, put it in your project knowledge, put it somewhere so that you build a repeatable system that is not dependent on whether it's 10 a.m. after an extremely long day at work, right?
Speaker 1Wow. You know, it's funny you say that because I feel like this time a year ago, people were talking about prompt engineering a lot. And it kind of reminds me a little bit of that. But how is this different in the way you see it? Or is it different?
Speaker 2It is different because prompt engineering, always considered as the name of the word implies, crafting and engineering better prompts. But it did not take into the account the reusability factor, right? My system is better than that in the sense that it's not dependent on your inspiration. It's dependent on a system that's repeatable, right? It's almost like a law that you put in place and then based on the need, invoke pieces and bits of it. A good example I think that will resonate with most people is design. People are very opinionated about how they want things to look. They want things to look good. They want things to look like, right? And we've all heard of the term AI slop. And a lot of times, your first draft of something, unless you are specific and you provide proper references, may come out as something that is not the way you would like it to be. So in those cases, instead of saying things like, make it prettier, which is quite subjective, right? Whenever I see that prompt, I'm like, okay, what does pretty mean to you? Because pretty for me and pretty for you is two completely different things. Very likely. So what I do is I build systems that are deterministic. So I can say forward slash, and I can use a skill that is like a retro skill. If I know that I want this to be retro, or if I know that I just want to redesign, maybe just a redesign skill, which invokes a couple of things that would perfect that original idea. So that's, I think, different from prompt engineering in that way where prompt engineering, I think, assumed that you would just become very good at producing unique prompts. This is the complete opposite. You produce a system that works, and you just play that on repeat.
Speaker 1I love that because my brain just doesn't work after 12pm. And thank you for already bringing, you know, tangible insights. I knew this episode would be very hands on people get your pens and paper out, get your recording device out. This is going to be one of those episodes. But Lazar, before we go any further, what's the most non AI thing that you still do to this day, despite working at, you know, a very well known AI company?
Speaker 2Well, I'd say the first thing that comes to mind is manual video editing, I still, you know, cannot find a way to vibe video edit, right? And it's such a pain, like I can't wait somebody to solve this. But for real, like really solve it the way I would do it. I've tested a couple of tools, nobody's close. So that's one super manual. Believe it or not, I've right, most of my emails and social media posts using AI, again, tried so many of these scheduling tools. Nothing just sounds like me. Very quickly, I see soundbites that are clearly, clearly written by AI. My vocabulary is as a non English, as a non native English speaker is not like I'm not using those words, right? I'm trying to really keep things simple, and super actionable. And I feel AI is very verbose sometimes. I will use AI for things like for example, if it's a longer format, write up, let's say sub stack, I'll use it to do the first draft, but never out of the blue. And always based on my brain dumps, really, I would just go in and just dictate into AI, like a super, super long five minute long rant. And then just really use AI just to like, like reorder things. And then I will polish it up at the end, right? So wherever there, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, there's a course, idea need that's in my head, I just really keep it within the bounds of the human. And then whenever I just need a little bit of structure around, you know, something that's super fuzzy, I may use AI. So like, you know, obviously, I use AI for all the coding. But as I said, you have some video editing, emails, believe it or not, which, you know, people are trying to automate, and then social media posts on top three things that I still do myself.
Speaker 1Makes me feel better, because I keep trying to video edit with like a click of a button, and it does not work. It does not work. So that makes me feel better. I also at the end of this episode, you know, I get the transcript, and I say to AI, what are all the topics that were talked about? But then when I write my intro, I read those, but then it's all in my own words. It's like, yeah, I feel like, I feel like if you take away our personality, what's the point of doing anything? Okay, mate, I am so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to be roasted by you. Hi, thank you. Because my personal website is built on lovable. I did this well before we met well before I knew you were coming on the show. Genuinely not sponsored, not meant to say this, but I love lovable. It, you know, was a very easy user friendly tool to get my website up and running. But you're going to roast it today because I want to make it better. And frankly, I don't know what I don't know. Are you ready to roast my website? -
Speaker 2Well, any day. i love i love watching lovable projects i love seeing them in the wild and especially like this in an unexpected uh setting okay so nice all right um do you want me to get started on this already you
Speaker 1know what dive right in and if you're listening guys uh you should be able to view this um on youtube or on spotify as well we've got video uh as part of this so have a look at what we're going through
Speaker 2i like the the color tone contrast like i i i always think in terms of like most people consume content on their on their mobile and likely it's going to be in an outdoor setting it's going to be in a setting where brightness coming from an outside source sun light whatever can impact the readability and i see so many websites where they're like five shades of blue or something and you're like man i can't i can't read this for for you know if you paid me to do it whereas this like super high contrast i like that you know you're trying to get the colors of what you wear match kind of the color of the website so it's kind of like easy to read that's kind of the first thing that i'm seeing here right um well let's move on i mean you can scroll down again yeah get more contrast very good story all right nice um images do get cut off a little bit weirdly if you want like a roast in the sense that like your body's just like just gets cut off like before the end of that scroll so it's like yeah maybe maybe some padding adjustment like you can kind of adjust the where where that section ends and the next one begins based off of where your image ends see how right there uh at your thigh level it just kind of gets cut off that's kind of making me feel weird about it a little bit you know yeah um but yeah um otherwise it's good uh coverage okay cool all right question um why yes why so late on introducing what you do i feel like you know i assume podcast is your like number one thing it is i will say this like based on anything that i i've done in the past and like analyzed uh websites and and you know have a decent experience in seo and a b testing and stuff like that i can tell you 95 of people are never going to scroll this uh this far on your page so it's like if people somehow in the wild came across your website they would not be able to realize what you do until they reach this section so like you're i would think all the way by now it's like oh this lady is just having a personal brand like i wouldn't even understand based on what obviously you have the story bit but obviously i'm but i will tell you people also don't read these days much uh our attention spans are you know uh really uh i'm going to zero almost so this is a cool section that i would somehow try to maybe incorporate a little bit earlier just because that's i feel like that's kind of gonna drive me to then learn your story i think i would rather know what you do and see these numbers say oh okay cool nice now let me now i'm bought in to the this person let me learn more about you about her so maybe just like flip them and swap them yeah yeah yeah great
Speaker 1shout great shout and also these numbers are all so wrong like uh hooray i'm doing so much better than these numbers is there an easy way to hyperlink those numbers uh would you recommend doing that
Speaker 2i mean technically yes uh you could build like a function that like because if these come from youtube for example youtube has a free ap a free api you could just say hey just connect the you would just need one key and which is free to obtain and you could read directly from youtube or you could um i there's ways definitely right okay to do this yeah so it's i that wouldn't should not be your um bottleneck in this case
Speaker 1yeah okay this is the newsletter
Speaker 2yeah again all of this bottom stuff i don't i don't look at too much because by this time if somebody spent uh the effort of scrolling and reading through this there they should already be bought into it i think like the goal behind a website is to get a buy-in from somebody to take the next step whatever that may be in your case it can be a newsletter or watching your videos if they go all the way down i feel like the likelihood of that happening is higher so i always focus on the top like first two or three sections really yes are enough for most people to make the call and say okay so i could even go as far as saying maybe you want to embed your last episodes that any episode that comes out it's like check out my new my latest episode because in a way you want people to know you better and the only way that the best way for somebody to get to know you better is to watch your videos right so i would probably like open with that right because you're on video you're a podcaster like why why so static right let's make this a little bit more vibrant and more dynamic
Speaker 1look we get it global hiring and payroll can be a headache companies like shopify revolute and 11 labs already scale internationally with deal and air wallex the leading ai finance platform they manage and pay over 1185 employees across 16 countries and they build their global team with deal so visit deel.com day one and start expanding your business today oh my gosh that's genius and then it ups the views as well hooray exactly yeah you're you're an absolute legend that i feel very cheeky getting you to do that but you must see these websites day in day out is it a good thing to do that you're an absolute legend that i feel very cheeky getting you to do that you're an absolute legend that i feel very cheeky getting you to do that you're anything that people get wrong about vibe coding their websites again and again that you wish you could tell them stop it oh
Speaker 2yeah i mean you the nail in the head i love talking about this one because it's super counterintuitive right for most people the biggest mistake people make is settling for the first design option they get people think okay i type in the prompt i get the output and they just settle and say okay well i guess i'm gonna spend the next three days fixing this thing what i do is i just open a new tab and i start a new project the reason why my mode my mode is 10 times better than than that mode is because every tool on the market lovable included are optimized for that first output meaning that the ratio of work the agent is going to produce versus the token spend is the most optimal for that first request that one shot prompt right meaning that you're going to get a far better output if you refine your first prompt then sending 10 prompts in a build that is never going to be the flower that you want to blossom out of your idea so the way i do it is first first tab pure brain dump i leave it open a new tab in that new tab brain dump but i turn on plan mode or something like that i let the tool make the decision sort of become my designing partner or co-founder in this case right help me out because i don't know what i'm doing sort of a thing open up the third tab third tab i'm already giving references i'm looking for award-winning websites i'm looking for examples out there in the wild of like these are the things that i admire two or three screenshots a couple of links and i'm like just take this inspiration right like i'm trying to give the tool the target right because in the end that's our job our job is still judgment and taste we are the ones that are setting the goal and the outcome ai is just a better fuel to get there a faster car or whatever right or a rocket in this case right but in the end it's it's up to you to dictate that that is the human piece that is still ours to dictate right so the i think the most it's the most cost-effective way even though for all people that i talk to it it's counterintuitive because it's a i'm but i'm starting four projects well technically you're not like you're you're starting one project and you're just having four variations of it and i see what
Speaker 1you're saying people are worried they're going to use up more credits if they've got more screens but they're not because it's still the same number of prompts right yeah
Speaker 2oh and even smaller like i guarantee you open four tabs you try out four different things you spend whatever the amount of tokens whatever the amount of credits is for those screens you're going to use up more credits for first prompts that would equate to 10 15 20 prompts in a bad design projects of fixing so actually you if you're if you're committed to take a project all the way you're going to save a bunch by just simply taking this more aggressive approach even though it's not it's just really like i just like to have a choice really right and expecting that from yourself or from ai to nail first attempt, I think is a little bit of a reach. should expect the first output not to be great but then you sit you're like okay I could have probably said this better you go to the again to the next step and you improve on it right and as I said people are not providing enough references people I think a lot of times say build me a world-class website world-class again similarly to the words pretty cool or whatever else they mean different things to different people please please if you take out anything out of this an image is worth a thousand words just use a screenshot go find a library of designs that are good looking like I love websites like awards with three w's or dribble with three b's in the middle like those are those are like places where top class world-class designers that get awards post their designs out there and you can just go and you're not supposed to rip them off but you're supposed to say to low hey use this as a reference use this as an inspiration right love also has specifically lovable again I don't know about other tools but level specifically has this option where you can say to it offer me three design options to choose from and it will pop up a window with three unique designs and you can just pick that pick pick them before they actually get rendered right so giving yourself more choices is something that I'm seeing people do the wrong way every time and whenever they kind of adopt this approach of mine I think they just unlock a multitude of new possibilities for their websites to look great can I
Speaker 1tell you what I get sent a lot of and what I my feedback is to people and tell me if you agree or see the same thing in your industry I get so many people offering you know their services it's usually consulting and AI but there's no photo of them there's no person that's going to be able to do the same thing so I think it's really important to be able to find the right person and the right person and to be able to find the right person and to be able to find the right person it's always like here are my services here's the pricing done and I'm like every website looks exactly the same it's always very dull very do you see this you're nodding okay okay
Speaker 2unfortunately and it's not I think due to the lack of creativity I think that people just because they adopt this first output mindset they just don't know what's possible they're locking themselves out of something 10 times better simply because they're not trying right I think the expectation is sometimes too high from the AI without always coming back to understanding that it's you my friend right in the end you you're the one dictating into it you're the one making the request AI is only doing what you're what you ask from it so whenever you get a bad output I think you know you should point the finger to yourself first to try and be honest with it if another human told me what I just told to AI would I be able to understand what that person wanted with no context and the answer is going to be no trust it's going to be no like whenever I would read my prompts with this mindset I would realize okay it's actually me because like if somebody told me this I'd be like I'd have like a million questions right so yeah I've
Speaker 1actually heard someone say that you never say to a graphic designer make it pop and it's the same thing right like to a graphic designer it's like like they're completely the most uh educated in the space of making designs and you say to them make it pop and they're like what the hell are you talking about like okay I I have to ask you Lazar because I was watching a video a year ago and this is when everyone was talking about vibe coders and this this is a new term it's a new job description it didn't exist before your face and name flashed up on screen as like this is what a vibe coder is tell the listeners what it means to you that title do you like the title and what it means that you do day to day
Speaker 2I mean today I feel less and less the vibe yeah heart if I'm honest because like I've I've done this for two years now and what I do day to day I feel has nothing to do with vibes anymore I think it's it's a little bit past that term I meet with engineers daily that are like looking at the output of my work and saying look this used to require you know 10 20 people with decade of experience to build like this is no joke like these these are load-bearing tools connected to multiple different connectors multiple different data sources and systems of record and have extremely complex AI functionalities so for me I mean the term is endearing right that's that's my official title still but I feel it's just software creation right it's you can call it whichever way you want it's what everybody does it's what people with engineering degrees do as well like I I challenge anyone to come to me and tell me that they are writing more than 5% or 10% of their code by hand probably I think most people don't do it at all everybody's using AI right which is which is I think totally fine because in a way when when you think about it um I I don't think that syntax and writing syntax was the only value right it was very valuable don't get me wrong but like the true value behind engineering was the ability to judge whether something will work and whether it will pass the test and whether it's secure and whether it will fail or not at scale at pressure right so it was never typing it out it was seeing whatever was typed out and understanding what's going to happen after I press the launch button right and engineers still do it it's just AI doing the grunting work of typing it out I think that if even the engineers themselves if they're honest with themselves they're probably very happy because yeah they they can now offload something that I I would personally feel uh was tedious I know that some people may say well I perfected the craft of actually writing the syntax and actually writing the code and I enjoyed it and I don't think that's going to go away either fully but it's not it's not the the I think the main thing that's making engineering special these days I think what makes them special and what makes people that engineer special is again just really good judgment and really the experience of understanding what may fail
Speaker 1at scale you would say that perhaps we're regressing to the mean in terms of software engineers are using AI more maybe vibing a little bit more and then vibe coders are getting more technical you you're starting to be you know you don't need your hand held as much as perhaps you might have to do and I think that's a good thing to have two years ago would you say that's
Speaker 2a fair statement I think it is I I mean unintentionally you you do become technical your your vocabulary um extends beyond what it used to be used you're like if you're using AI properly if you're using lovable properly for example you're asking it a lot of questions clarifying questions really when when you read the the response from an AI agent the best thing you can do is say I don't understand that can you explain it to me but never in like people a lot of times say explain to me like I'm fine never say like that's the wrong term because like then it's gonna write a fairy tale you you will not understand that that's gonna be even worse what you should say is something like what I do is I say look I'm not an engineer I'm a little bit technical but like I really don't understand what xyz means just please avoid using tech jargon plain english only um tldr like keep it to the concept and usually you you get a response that's satisfactory and you kind of as any other intelligent human being would you just connect the dots and then later when you see the term or the situation repeat you're like oh okay I've seen this in the past so if you kind of operate under this you kind of start developing the flywheel that I always say I use which is the more I build the more I know the more I know the more I build right so it's like you just this uh forever enforcing mechanism uh that works again in your favor I also think that a lot of engineers can learn a lot of things about um product design design in general um distribution because like in the end they I can be a very good companion for somebody who's used to being confined into just doing the technical bit right now that the technical bit is solved and you're you can also do a couple of more things that are beyond what your expertise in engineering used to be you can also benefit from learning just how to ask better questions really
Speaker 1beautifully said I want to ask you now you touched upon the fact that you do some video editing that might have been a bit of a tease how did lovable find you how did you get the job
Speaker 2well it is it is I think probably uh the best possible segue because I you know if you ask Elena who hired me she's like um I I'll always remember seeing a video of you and I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm when I was like in an airport, talking about comparing lovable with other tools and like really showing that, you know, to the weeds of this and then you sent me a message a couple of days later because i i did message her completely something completely different and you know kind of turned out to be probably the best message i sent in my life um but all in all i was i think discovered by lovable early as a very um early user of their beta which used to be called gpt engineer so lovable used to have a different name like they were just ongoing a very small launch i've discovered it out there in the wild signed up and got on board with the team so i kind of knew them and i was sending emails with them back and forth giving them feedback sort of beta testing things but it was very like um casual right it wasn't like there was a regular cadence there and then i just had this idea of like putting myself onto like a new year's challenge in the beginning of the year and in the beginning of 2025 because i was like the only way i think i'm going to learn this thing is if i do it i was very eager to learn how to code at that point or like build or whatever you want to call it because vibe coding wasn't a term then vibe coding was coined later two months later like i was just i was already doing it for like six months before it was a term and then i just was started a youtube channel called 1550 challenge where i in the beginning of 2025 when i think it was probably still considered a very crazy idea so i did a full-time job at that point as a vp for a startup i said look i'm going to spend my mornings nights and weekends building apps and i'm going to build a new app every week and i right now if you said that today it would be like sure whatever anybody can do it in 10 minutes but back then building an application with a backend ai functionality and stuff that was super super hard right so most people told me that i was crazy or that i'm not going to do it which kind of fueled the fire in me i guess a little bit and then i just started showing up every every saturday i would just record a new demo like this is what i built for the past week tell people what i learned if you ask me if i had any expectations or a plan like oh yeah this is going to get me to lovable i mean i'd lie if i say so i had i don't know why i was doing it if i'm honest i was just like i think that the main driver was really i just want to be better at the craft and i think i'm going to get better if i try many new things and then so many things happen as a result of it right started uh getting some traction starter story reached out to me they were like hey we want to do a course with you we want to do a video on youtube with you i mean they have 700 000 subscribers so that was my a bit of a pop moment for me i was like oh okay this guy's doing it right um and then as i said i think you know out of the blue in just a couple of weeks time me and elena got in touch she gave me a shot i i kind of took advantage of it really i felt that the this was the the opportunity of a lifetime that i've always been waiting for i'm very because i'm very inspired by lovable's mission overall right um i'm the ideal user persona there's millions and millions of lazars that are like wanting to build their whole lives and felt that either it was very gatekept or required a lot of permission a lot of knowledge a lot of school a lot of experience and now all of a sudden i can just be whatever i feel i'm the person closest to the problem too if that makes sense like if i ultimately know the problem i can actually solve it for myself like i don't know that i've always wanted to be a founder or not but i always knew that i had this conception in my mind that if i ever wanted to build anything i have to partner up with a technical founder like that was just my limitation in my head and now i i no longer have it and i i believe the same is true for so many other people so i'm going to be a founder and i'm going to be a founder and i'm going to be a founder so for me i think building in public obviously i was very public about it my my successes and failures video editing skills no matter how poor they were probably helped you know like i just uh by the way today crossed 4 000 subscribers on my youtube channel that's completely like out of date uh so i i it's an encouragement for me to start recording more videos but yeah i think that's uh that's that was my kind of gateway to lovable from an early user to somebody that now uh sent uh 38 000 messages to lovable so far so i i i think i i may have had a lot of luck getting to this stage but staying where i am is a product of a little bit of a hard work too so yeah you said
Speaker 1that you love the mission of lovable and just hearing you talk about gosh in the past if i wanted to bring something to life i'd need a technical co-founder i really relate to that i brought an app to market and i needed to pay through the nose to app engineers and this is you know six plus years ago now and even to update the app would require oh my gosh throw more money at it like find app designers um it feels really delightful to say to people you know what you don't need to be able to code to bring your vision to life what else about lovable do you think uh is great that people might not be aware of like this is a european company too i feel like most of the time we hear about these american ai companies perhaps you could talk to me a little bit about that
Speaker 2yeah definitely i think it's the team um most people say the same thing and not to say anything bad about any other place that i worked at but i personally felt that i've heard this from many other people at lovable i was the only person that really cared in my previous job and you know when i say cared that means if something's not right i'd stay up as long as it's needed i work on a weekend i'd work on a holiday it doesn't matter i'm just like i care a lot right and lovable amazingly somehow i really don't know how like i don't have an answer to but like so many people resonate with this and so many people like just support each other in this motion of like we all care so deeply where i feel like people are willing to go way beyond anything else that they could have imagined physically even when we talk about now it's not just about emotionally you feeling driven by the fact that like a million or 1.2 million projects get created on on lovable every week right which is massive but it's like it's not even the number it's like driven by the fact that like so many other people are alongside you are willing to go and and learn whichever skill they need to learn and feel as much discomfort as needed um to to get us to a place where we can support these people building right so the unique bit for from my point of view on lovable is that it's just like the most amazing team you could ever assemble really and i say that with super high confidence because you know everybody knows we just kind of raised again a new round that like we're a 13 billion dollar company that's uh two years old right so that doesn't happen by accident like lovable isn't where it is because you know we're in this ai bubble or whatever it's it's because it's it's an amazing collective of people that's distributed across the world and i think what's super unique about us is also how how well we are able to spread context which i think is is everything really about things without physically always being with each other like we're distributed across the globe we have teams in the u.s in in london stockholm in in europe right and and even other countries and other places yet information is somehow very well distributed we also built a lot of internal tools we have our like company brain and stuff like that we're like we can extremely fast share information and act upon it and i think the the most craziest bit is that in any company i ever worked at in the past even thinking about touching the code base was like impossible only this person can do it only like there was a lot of gatekeeping in lovable it's it's actually the opposite you are encouraged to ship something in production on day one which for everyone is mind-blowing even for non-technical people we are encouraged to find something that we can improve on the product and either improve it ourselves using lovable or find an engineer to help us right but like the idea is to empower people to build even internally so it's not a mission that's on paper and that's being said by people on podcasts we are living it internally as well right so yeah you see it day to day yeah yeah everybody becomes a builder on day one in lovable period right so to me that's super super powerful and very unique experience i've never seen or heard anybody do it that way ever before
Speaker 1okay well i want to i want to bring something up with you that i hear murmured now you know vibe coding and vibe coding is a very important thing and i think it's a very important thing because vibe coding websites um super popular everyone seems to be using them but of course there's backlash with everything and one of the things that i hear about is oh they're not secure what would you say to that uh vibe coded websites not secure nothing in the world
Speaker 2is absolutely secure right there's no such thing that's why you have security teams in place right i will say the one unique thing about lovable specifically if we took take on the vibe coding landscape is that we have a system which is called our security center and security reviewer which will prevent you physically prevent you from publishing your website if there is a vulnerability in your code base or in your dependencies or in your database it will literally stop you and say look this is a warning you will have to review it right it is number one free to use it which is cool because a lot of people will think oh but i would have to spend credits to fix it why didn't ai fix it in the first place well ai is ai right it's still sometimes average intelligence so it's not you're not always going to get um the most sophisticated output or better yet said you're going to get the best possible output but it's not always going to be all encompassing all fixing everything in your application we're not there yet we're getting we're getting pretty damn close but we're not there yet today that's why there are some residuals that are left out there for our security scanner to pick up and say look these are the things i flagged do you want to fix them now you can say because maybe you're building an internal project for a demo you can ignore it you can say no this is not a risk i'm doing this for me i don't don't worry about it right and you you don't have to do it right even though there's no harm in fixing a security vulnerability right so i'd say um if people think something isn't secure they should never blame ai and that this goes for any platform not just lovable any platform you use it's your fault it's a hundred percent your responsibility just because the code was written by ai doesn't mean that you don't own it you own whatever you built like and in the end it's your job to just ask the question i think it goes back to the the main lesson that i always give to people if you would ask me what's the biggest trick in the world in vibe coding the answer is two words just ask right if you don't know it just ask the tool if you're like is my is my database secure let it scan it is my website secure let it scan can my website survive a thousand bots trying to spam it in in a single minute just ask the tool it will fix it it will put rate limits in place right so like as long as you ask you won't have any problems security included but again in terms of lovable i i want to say that for us security is not an afterthought that comes at publishing it's something that we do all the time so every request gets uh the this basic scan so to speak with the ability to run a deep scan manually whenever you want to do so we are also the first platform in the world that received the ai you see one certification which is like the pinnacle today of secure vibe coding if you want to call it that way so we're the first ones to to get it we were all the time get audited by independent auditors in this space and always get the highest grades so i can only speak on on what i know and i know lovable uh but again even with other platforms it's it's your code right so you're you really have to be the one that um does the best job possible to secure it do
Speaker 1you think people blame the tools a lot like if i crashed into a tree i was like this car this car is crazy it's got a mind of its own but for whatever reason i seem to think that people are like the ai ah
Speaker 2pretty much great analogy it's it's really a vehicle it's just a very fast moving vehicle uh that's usually more capable than you are but if it's going down the cliff and you don't want to take the wheel and steer it off i mean go down the cliff i mean in the end you're you're the driver still which i think is great right that is that is the key uh position that i think us humans should be in we should be happy that we get this amazing opportunity to um orchestrate such a powerful tool in our lifetimes but again you're orchestrating it so you can't blame it for misbehaving based on poor instructions that you give it and i don't want anybody to get offended i'm the first one that will always blame myself first so i can i'm only going to tell you to do what i do for myself and that is if you review your request and if you are objective you will always always understand that it's your fault beautifully
Speaker 1said i tend to agree and when i can see someone's vibe coded a beautiful website that's secure and amazing and they've used the exact same tool that i did and mine looks like garbage i feel like maybe i need to work a little bit harder on those prompts liza what is left for human beings if lovable can do all the building like you know i i'm thrilled to be in a time where i don't have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to a software engineer to help me but what what should i be focusing on as a human being now
Speaker 2well look first of all i don't think we've solved building in the sense that there's nothing left to do right i think we've dramatically lowered the cost of turning idea into software so that is true but building was never the whole game it was never like building from a code base building a business building something that survives beyond coding um building a great company um is more than just uh writing good code and good uh sequel it's understanding the customer uh making a lovable product making good product decisions uh finding means of distribution very important earning trust ability to iterate ability to understand customer needs overall right so like humans end up working with humans more as a result of this revolution which is i think the best thing ever right because in the end we are uh you know social beings overall uh some i've heard somebody also say we're mammals like this is nature right we want to we want to be closer together and you're like okay well that actually makes sense right um i i heard this from another engineer right and she said it quote if the ability to write great software was all that it took to build a great company every amazing engineer would already be a millionaire and we know that's not true right so it was never just about engineering it is about engineering and there's plenty of things to engineer but it's really more about showing up on the marketplace and being there for your customer and you know i think as when building gets cheaper it just amplifies the importance of that right so um i'd say there's plenty of work for left for us humans to do still yeah
Speaker 1yeah guys you um don't need to book that uh retirement just yet perhaps so what does vibe coding look like in two to three years uh if we even use that as the term anymore i feel like no one uses it as a term anymore
Speaker 2people are still using it but i think eventually it's just going to be coding period like maybe it's always going to be kind of about vibes and whatnot but i think we're slowly going from like prompt token maxing into goal maxing era which means that like right now today we tell an agent what we want to build and we iterate iterate iterate iterate like micro interactions micro iterations right i think eventually and eventually meaning very soon um you will just be able to say and describe the outcome that you want right you will not think in terms of i want this to be green you will think in terms of i want this website to attract more customers right so you will focus on the end game and let ai uh basically prompt itself to get there so agents talking to agents to get you there you will talk to one agent that will talk to dozens of others specialized in trying to get you there right um i also wouldn't be surprised that in two to three years time we don't start building more software for agent agent relationship meaning you're building something with zero intention of a human touching it right you're just building something that is supposed to talk to another agent so your agent talks to my agent they negotiate something on the marketplace use each other's services move information around whatever right just in we're gonna evolve get to that place but i also think we are gonna see a bit of a slowdown we forget how small of a bubble this is really i'm i'm grateful and humbled by the fact that i live in an area where nobody around me is in this space they're not engineers they're not in it they're like just normal people having normal jobs they they're not building they are not maybe even interested in building at the moment right so i think at some point we're gonna hit this kind of saturation plateau of like okay these early adopters are all in all they're all pilled but now the next generation needs more they need something else right so i think that there's is gonna be a little bit of a a slow down in in terms of like just the amount of people that are doing it but i think we're gonna see dramatically uh deeper usage from those that have adopted it meaning that people that are building websites today and thinking wide coding is only for prototyping will start to understand that they can run and grow their businesses they will be outcome oriented they will um you know increase the economic impact of their businesses and platforms that are helping them get there are going to tremendously grow it's just going to go deep versus wide i think for for a little while uh in the next few years
Speaker 1fascinating you say that it's brought me i this is a little off topic but by the time this episode comes out my episode is a deep dive on elon musk goes out and it's so interesting the time when the internet came out uh his first company with his brother was getting website like creating websites essentially they went from white pages to websites and i feel like we're almost in that era like a local coffee shop we can vibe code your website now and then it's okay well the internet's come a really long way and then the you you spoke about seo and things like that you can really optimize and improve just from what you said i feel like we're at that dawn of ai currently still but it's gonna evolve perhaps maybe i've interpreted that wrong no yeah
Speaker 2you did but i think with internet it took 20 30 years this is gonna be yeah much faster this is just gonna be way faster like it's the same cycle how
Speaker 1quick do you reckon
Speaker 2i have no idea i mean again i think one of my biggest regrets actually is not understanding velocity well enough which is i i was super early and in the first six months my output was like subpar honestly in the sense that like i was just like i'll do this once a week twice a week type of thing and i was like i'm gonna do this once a week twice a week and i'm gonna do this once a week twice a week and i'm gonna do this once a week twice a week and i'm gonna do this once a week deal i wish i understood the the speed um i just had nothing to compare it against really because ai is the fastest thing that grew ever so if i knew how fast it's going to be i think i would much better utilize those first six months to position myself to like because i was like i had this fortune of finding tools like lovable cursor on there like day one right and i was just like i'll just i'll just use this next week you know instead of just like getting all in immediately so i i can't predict anything really except that like um i i just know it's going to be faster than than anything else we've ever
Speaker 1seen mate when i started this ai podcast people were like oh it's the the next you know metaverse ai is like you know maybe like crypto maybe like uh vr headsets like it'll come it'll go your podcast will last six months i tell you i was early on it but i wish i doubled down even harder as well
Speaker 2yeah i bet everybody feels the same
Speaker 1yeah okay mate yeah i look like a genius now um mate we are at the rapid fire part of the show i want one minute answers this is the stuff that gets clipped up in social media uh no pressure but try your best to answer under a minute we'll see how we go number one you told me when we last spoke that you are pro ai coding till you die why let's see
Speaker 2yeah i think it's probably gonna be similar to what i said but here it is like um i'm pro ai coding because i don't think um typing code was ever the highest value part of engineering i think the most valuable part was always uh what should be built understanding how systems work seeing all the trade-offs uh knowing when something's gonna break uh making good security decisions just exercising your judgment i think that um today i personally want to be heavily involved still um because i'm still building software for humans i'm a human right myself and i have opinions obviously about how something should feel and work and i don't want to outsource that judgment right but eventually who knows right maybe uh we're going to be building software primarily for agents agents who are going to communicate with other agents um and then the abstraction is going to change again but that's going to make me even more pro uh ai coding
Speaker 1not less so well said apart from lovable you can't pick lovable what's one tool you can't build without
Speaker 2um that's that's a hard question because lovable is always going to be for building i can talk about tools that i can't build without otherwise number one slack right like i build internal tooling for lovable i need to have the ability to quickly communicate with my team and get their feedback fast and like slack is just the place right all context lives there you work with humans you get power from working with humans that's the number one aside from it whisper flow i'm a heavy uh brain dumper dictate dictator into the tools like whisper flow is my uh you know go-to and i love granola the best note taker out there like really helps me later like understand how i did um even this interview is going to be recorded with it so i'll ask you hey how did i do can you grade it to me can you help me do do this better next time so uh those would be kind of the top three ones that i just can't live without today
Speaker 1well granola for the record i think lazar nailed it what's one thing you wish someone told you before you started this journey
Speaker 2i guess it's probably the the bit that we mentioned which is hey this is going to be very fast you you gotta you have to push the pedal now i had the time i had the mean i had everything like i had all the pre-existing conditions to go all in and i just didn't it right so i wish somebody on the side would have told me hey this is going to be very fast and whoever makes the move first they're going to capture the whole market right and i i would have probably because like i was there before cloud code i was there before lovable i was there before cursor and you know i'm not saying i didn't capture it i mean i do work at lovable so i eventually got there i just feel like i could have i could have done way better and way more if i just did a little bit more in the beginning
Speaker 1what's the most overrated ai hot take that you keep hearing
Speaker 2the most overrated ai hot take for me is that uh token maxing is somehow a bad thing um i actually think people should experiment more try five different approaches build things you're not sure whether they're gonna ever work out um i think people are very token spend diverse to a degree that they stop discovering things right i always compare it to the alternative if you wanted to do this manually what was the the way five years of engineering school five years of experience hiring developers hiring agencies hundreds if not thousands of dollars right so if spending twenty five fifty a hundred dollars is what's gonna take you from not knowing what you're doing to like oh my god i i tried a hundred things and 99 of them didn't work but damn it one worked and it's amazing to me that's a an amazing investment so uh i i feel again hot take people say is like oh talk token maxing is is somehow bad i don't think it is it's actually the best
Speaker 1thing ever oh loved that and what's the most underrated ai hot take no one's saying it and you wish people were aware i think
Speaker 2the most underrated effect is actually that it actually raises people's ambition um because once again tying back to what i just said once you realize that you can build something in a weekend or very quickly you naturally i think start thinking okay it's not about can i do this it's about what else can i do right so all of a sudden there's this crazy uh for me at least ambition of like oh i can do anything right and then also something interesting about um how encouraging ai is right a lot of times when you say a crazy idea to a friend to a relative they'll immediately tell you you're crazy and give you 10 reasons why it won't work ai does the opposite it explores the idea which you brainstorms which you helps you figure it out so i think unintentionally ai is giving people more confidence to try new things they probably would have talked themselves out of before so that's kind of i think the one thing that nobody's like saying it out loud but you can see it like and i'm a living proof of it like i would never embarked on an opportunity to record youtube videos about me building something but because i think because ai was like always encouraging me oh yeah this is a great idea that is a great idea okay maybe it's a great idea that i i actually go and do this thing right
Speaker 1ai is my most encouraging supportive business partner i've ever had so i totally relate to you on that two more questions number one i've already got my favorite ai vibe coder on the show it's you lazar but who would you suggest i go after next i'd say two two
Speaker 2avatars that are a little bit underrepresented that i'd love to hear and see more from are women who i quote there's plenty of them out there in the wild that i see on linkedin every day you know some sometimes they'll tag lovable or tag me or show me what they're building like i i feel like you know it's unfortunately from a perspective of of voices a very loud male dominated world for no reason whatsoever i feel there's so much untapped creativity on that side of the aisle so to speak and that's why i think it's important to have an avatars that are a little bit underrepresented and then um small business owners people out there in the wild the main street heroes that are like finding ways to just get their problems solved that They couldn't find the right software, couldn't afford it, and now they can build it themselves. There's super amazing, inspiring stories like that I hear working in Lovable. Again, we get tagged a lot. We get a lot of emails, messages from people giving us these crazy, crazy examples, even like people that are using it for social good, for charity and things like that. So I think I'd love to hear something that's not just about a bro token maxing either, but like there's other people out there doing really, really cool stuff.
Speaker 1Yeah, my Instagram algorithm is cooked because all it is is like young dudes putting zin, like whatever they're called, and like vibe coding all night to be a billionaire. I agree with you. I want to see more like AI for good, more women in AI. My final question was. Wow, you have been such a brilliant guest. What would you ask the next guest? I'm going to pay this forward. It can be a spicy question. It can be like a genuine question you have. What should I ask my next guest on In the Blink of AI?
Speaker 2If we really believe that AI is going to eventually do most of the things, it's kind of a twofold question. First part is, what's the thing you're most excited to be replaced by AI? And on the opposite side, what's the thing that you're most excited to finally have more time to do?
Speaker 1What a feel good ending to an amazing interview, Lazar. Thank you so much for coming on the show. How do people find your YouTube channel? How do people follow you? Take it away.
Speaker 2It's very easy. Just type Lazar from Lovable, Lazar Lovable. You'll find it. I'm still the only Lazar at Lovable. And it's. I'm quite, quite easy to find. I'm most responsive on LinkedIn. As I said, my YouTube is kind of dead these days. But I promise here publicly that I will do my best to get it up and running a little bit more. But yeah, those would probably be the best two ways to engage with me.
Speaker 1We're going to keep you accountable. We're going to see some more YouTube videos come on. I loved this. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
Speaker 2It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me once again.
Speaker 1Thank you so much for listening to In the Blink of AI. If you want to go deeper on anything we've spoken about today, I write a weekly substack called Attention is All I Need. Yes, it's hilarious. It's a pun. And essentially, I go into AI rants, tech news, events I'm going to, and more. It's bite-sized. And I hear it's awesome. The link is in the show notes below. And I'll see you in the next one.
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