Vibe Coding for SEO: Building Rankable Apps, Tools, and Revenue in Minutes

Ram Barrowette, welcome to the show. - Is this my first one, huh? - This is your first one, and I had to like beg you to show your face in public, 'cause you're a notoriously hidden figure. - This is rare, this is a rare appearance, but you know, I had to do at least one. - You're okay, so for people who don't know, you are a long time co-founder of mine. We've done several businesses together, and you have another business relief, which is doing really well. We talk almost every day, and we had a phone call last week where you were telling me about all the stuff that you're doing, just all the vibe coding that you are doing. You fired your dev team of like seven people or something, and replaced it with just you, your co-founder, and somebody else, just all using vibe co-tools. - You told me that recent models for anti-gravity and cursor have finally made vibe code tools that aren't really making as many mistakes, so it's actually viable to use, and everybody is sleeping on it. You told me that, you are creating, you are creating like linkable assets, just vibe coding linkable assets that are showing up with SEO. Like you're doing all sorts of close up, and you were doing it fast. Like I'm seeing you making changes to one of our apps, and then I'm thinking that you're over there grinding for like an hour, and you tell me that you did it under a minute. I literally for like a bunch of the iterations that you made, I thought that you were grinding for hours, and each one took a minute. Like that's crazy. And so on this episode of the show, I just love for you to talk about like what you're doing, what you're using, how people can get started, because I mean, yeah, there's a million applications, like if you can code, if you can make this stuff, you can do anything, and I'm always saying on this show, it's like make something and be able to monetize it with SEO, or I recorded an episode a few days ago, you're a news publisher, you need to diversify revenue, because you can't depend on ads, you can't depend on affiliates, because traffic is going down, but you can make a web app, and you can rank for purchase intent keywords where you are getting users, and you can show people how to make a web app. All right, I'm done. I'd love for you to give your background to before we go. - Sure, I've been building apps for the better part now of I'd say 15, 16 years since the beginning of Android. I was around when I jumped in, so we're talking 2010, maybe. And yeah, we built mostly consumer mobile apps, a few web apps as well. And as the most recent has been relief, which has been pretty much my full-time focus, we started at the end of 2020, and relief is still going, and we're at that settlement app, or an app that helps people with their past due debt, and gets them deals on them, automated. And yeah, it's been a long journey, but up until, let's say the past month, the best way to develop and build these projects has still been using engineers, both backend engineers and front end engineers, and in many cases needing a project manager, technical project manager to tie, both those worlds together, manage tasks, the whole nine, but I'd heard that AI was starting to replace parts of the development workflow. You know, we'd heard rumors. I checked some of those tools out over the past few months, and they didn't quite do it. They made more errors than not. A lot of them took time to run. Some of them were costly in terms of the amount of tokens it took to run. And so for the most part, I was thinking, okay, this is something that's gonna happen in a few years. You keep hearing the rumors, oh, developers are gonna lose their jobs in five, 10 years. So it was always a future concept of replacing development altogether with AI, but there was a breakthrough, it seems, in the past two months with the release of Gemini's new model, Google's new model, Gemini Pro, Gemini 3, as well as Claude's new model, Opus 4.5. Those two models seems to have really cracked the code. And now the leap went from maybe AI is performing like a junior or intern level developer to this is replacing a senior experienced engineer and multiplying that engineer. We're talking, you know, you're doing the work of potentially 10 or 20 engineers in a day that are senior experienced, you know, versus just having one person that's just myself, I would say I'm probably a three out of 10 on development skills maybe four. Being able to leverage that type of knowledge and development power, you know, for free, right now, for free, if you use anti-gravity, and if you're paying for cursor, maybe $20, $30 a month, and if you have a higher workload, maybe a few hundred dollars, if you use some of the max plans per month. So it's been insane. The first, you know, first I tested out building some features on a web app that we have, me and Edward run called Reverb, that allows you to record cloud voice notes. And I was noticing with Gemini 3, it was like I was giving half baked instructions, and maybe a screenshot of what I meant, and it was implementing it perfectly, both from front end to back and implementation without errors. I would always manually check and review the pull requests before I push them, so I could see what the tools have created. And, you know, it was rare that there was anything that I would want to change before pushing. After a while, I started trusting it more than myself on making changes, and my mind just been blown. We're talking about things that would take me a week to build or being done in an hour. - These were feature requests that we had on the back burner for years, that people had been sending us for years, that we just didn't have time to build. And then all of a sudden, see you pushing like all of these features, and I'm like, what's going on? Ram must have like a lot of free time or something. And you tell me that you've made like each of them in a couple of minutes. - Yeah, yeah, it's addicting. It's like feature ideas that I've designed in Figma, just, I just drop it in, and with some instruction, and it replicates it almost flawlessly, even UI, even it makes, it use the same drop shadows, the same font sizes, everything without me explicitly saying. It re-arranges even our database schema to accommodate for new values. It does everything, it's insane, and it's addicting, honestly. I find myself anytime I have downtime, it's like, now, there's no excuse if you have a free 10 minutes of the day to not push a new feature idea you had in your mind that you thought would have taken you weeks. Now I just, I pop it off, and it's live within minutes, honestly. - This method of marketing is so effective, I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept doing it. It's a form of SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions, how, what, when? Compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers who are actually looking to buy. These pages rank on Google and convert so much better than normal that when I discovered this years ago, I couldn't believe this was allowed. It's less work too. The average compact keywords pages only 415 words. Compact keywords is a 13 hour deep course on getting sales with SEO. A customer recently said, each lesson is dense with information. You are giving years worth of experience, boil down into 15 to 30 minute lessons with no filler or fluff. I feel like I'm gaining a new superpower. Compact keywords is about setting up an SEO funnel that brings you sales for years and years and years. It works with AI, it's less work than traditional SEO, and it makes way more money. You can get it now at compactewords.com back to the podcast. It was crazy last week when, so there was some bug. When people, I couldn't record. It was people with a free tier who weren't signed in. They couldn't record, so I wake up and I get a bunch of emails from users being like, from unpaid users, and they're like, I can't record. Something's wrong, it's not saving the voice notes. So I send you these screenshots. And you gave it a prompt and you fixed it literally, you said, in under a minute. Yeah, yeah, I gave it a prompt and I didn't even describe what I thought was wrong. I just, I gave high level what user reporting on their end. And it discovered the bug and fixed it completely within one minute and I pushed it. It was something I probably would have taken all day to try to investigate and find out. And yeah, and these are not small changes. When I see these pushes we're talking about, sometimes I see 100 lines of code, 150 lines of code written to make these updates and these changes and it's doing it within minutes. And yeah, and it's wild. One of the tools that has also made pushing and making changes even on the fly really useful has been cursors bug bot. And what cursors bug bot does is essentially, it acts like a pull request reviewer. So normally when you push code, you're supposed to have another person, another developer ideally review your code before you push it because he might be able, he or she may be able to catch mistakes that you've made before pushing or any bugs. There are automated tools that go over your pull requests to see if there are any basic checking, but typically it's better to have a pull request review by someone. And being a solo dev or if you have a smaller dev team, that's not always possible. And using bug bot, AI is essentially the reviewer. And it catches things I never would have caught. It's been instrumental. So before pushing live, I just have it run through bug bot, it catches 99% of what would have been caught by an engineer. And it's allowed me to push things with faith that it's going to go through. And the agent corrects the mistakes that it finds during the review. So you don't even have to implement the changes. It's insane. Honestly, it's scary even. - I was an example of how scary it is. So how big was your dev team before this? Like what was the story that you told me? - Yeah, so prior to these releases, we had a team of eight actual engineers, seven of which were outsourced. And this is not including myself or my co-founder is a CTO. And they were great engineers. They're all full time-- - How much were they getting paid? - Six figures pretty much each person. These are full time like senior engineers, great guys, both front and back end as well as a DevOps engineer. We've had them on board for two years now. And as these tools have been coming out, I've been mentioning to them, hey, I'm seeing breakthroughs here, you guys using cursor. We've paid for a lot of these plans for them on the business so that they can test out all these tools, whether it's Gemini, whether it's Claude. And the output was still, the turnaround times for a lot of the features are still pretty long. And being that we're a consumer startup, we need rapid turnaround. We have rapid iteration. We're getting feedback from users on a daily basis. And a lot of it is testing because you're literally having hundreds of thousands of people use your product. You're going to discover things instantly versus B2B, which sometimes is slower, iterations necessary. And yeah, it came to a point where one weekend, there was a PR that I put up. And the estimate from our team was like, it's probably going to take about 10 days to implement. - Oh wow. - And I said, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and crack it with my co-founders, RCTO over the weekend using, anti-gravity just released and we're just like, let's try it because the models on anti-gravity are free anyways. And Gemini 3 was already embedded in it. And we went ahead and made that build within three hours. - Oh my God. - Yeah. And it was in a awakening where it's like, that's pretty much our biggest overhead in our company is our engineering aside from marketing spend. But that's the game. And yeah, when we came back to them and told them, you guys need to be using this. You know, we're able to make things in hours that you guys are quoting for weeks. And yeah, it's kind of like the aha moment where you started thinking, you know, if you have just one or two senior people there to review and use these agents, there's, you can basically 10X, your existing engineers, which resulted in us thinking maybe we shouldn't, maybe we don't need such a large team moving forward. It was a no, it's a no-brainer. And being that they were outsourced on using a staffing agency, you know, we were able to essentially replace that engineering team with agents. So we're in the process of doing that right now. And you're, so was eight people getting reduced to three people is what you told me. - So actually we're the eight outsourced, so we have one, we have one engineer in house in the United States and the other seven are all outsourced. We're getting rid of six and keeping one of them part time for DevOps just as a backup. And yeah, and then we're keeping the in-house engineer in the US, domestic stay-side. And yeah, and then our project, our technical project manager is able to use the agents 'cause he has coding knowledge pretty well. So yeah, we don't, our engineering team is essentially down to one in our co-founders, you know, in terms of full-time engineers. - People who don't know, your startup relief is very serious. Like you have raised from some of the top people in tech. I don't know if you're able to say how much you raised, but like your investors are just some of the most well-known people in tech and business. And like you said, you have many, many users every day. - Yeah, we're series A startup. I, you know, this is not just, you know, people are, you know, what's popular on Twitter is people are thinking five coding is for novices or for people to just start something up and make MVPs, and I'm telling you now, we've hit a point where they're making real pull requests, real feature updates to popular apps, and people are using cursor with some of these models to build them. This is no longer just by coding. This is building better than senior engineers can build. You know, there may be some exceptions on some of the use cases for, you know, things that require immense security, that beyond traditional use cases. But if you're using any of the popular stacks or using popular APIs, it's gold. There's really no reason not to be using these tools. And I can guarantee even if you can't eliminate your engineering team in full, you can drastically reduce it and leverage the power of it to multiply the great engineers who have working for you and make them, you know, 10X, 20X that'll put. The times come, literally, we're here. - Crazy. I wanna go down back to that first person now who's just like somebody who does want to vibe code in MVP. And talk about how they can get started. And I think a good way to introduce that is like the story that you told me about your girlfriend. And she doesn't have any technical experience. She's a dentist. She has no technical experience. And she made an app. - Yeah, yeah, she's never built anything in her life, not an engineer. She had a great idea for an app for essentially, it's like a couple's therapy app. And, you know, she's had the idea for months, I would say six or seven months. You know, she was getting her bearings as a dentist so she didn't have a lot of time. And, you know, has always run it by me. And I would give her pointers on where to start. And, you know, I told her the first step is just get, design it so you could see what it looks like. So she started playing out with Figma and started learning that, which is just a design tool. There's no engineering to it. - Is she using AI in Figma? 'Cause you can also, like Figma's AI is pretty good. My cousin. - You can, so before even jumping into Figma, her first step was using AI to outline. And, essentially create a scaffold for what would be what she'd be building, right? So, it's like a technical spec document. Just, she used Gemini and essentially created all the features set in what she would be building out. And, what she would need to design screen by screen. Just in plain text, she then started her hand at Figma and you can use AI right now. Like, for example, there's Google Stitch, which will generate you mobile screens that have pretty good design UI to it. And it's free right now. She didn't use that. She ended up starting to make bare bones designs in Figma herself and then hired an outsourced designer on Upwork just to make the remainder of the screens because she wanted someone to add experience. But, at this point, if you don't have a budgetary, just want to make something together quickly, you can use Google Stitch and generate them for free or use Figma Make, which is Figma's AI and generate the screens inside. So, she made the set of designs. And, again, no engineering, no one involved. She went on Repplet and Repplet as a feature now, which allows you to-- - Is there what Repplet is for people who don't know? - Sure. Repplet is a cloud-based IDE, but also a platform that allows you to buy code apps. Even with zero experience, they'll host it for you. They will deploy it for you. They will install every plug-in and every API that you want to use in your app, automatically, and manage it for you. - They're hosting it, so can you point it to a subdomain? You can make it and point it to it. - Yeah, it allows you to purchase and assign custom domains right in it. Everything done for you. I mean, if you have zero technical knowledge at all, you can deploy a web app or mobile app through Repplet. And many people don't know about the mobile app aspect because it's in beta, but they released a React Native feature, which allows you to build a React Native mobile app, which means you can have an iPhone and Android app all vibe-coded for you. And, you know, I, like others, were skeptical at first, thinking there's no way you could build, you know, an app store grade app, truly just off vibe-coding. So, but I told her, give it a shot anyways. And she went on Repplet and they had a feature which allows you to connect your Figma designs straight into it using what they call MCPs. So MCPs essentially allow you, allow AI to have context and pull from other sources so that you can build. So it pulls the Figma's directly and it essentially built out the Figma screen by screen exactly as designed into the app. So she has a working build right now that mirrors the exact app that was designed without any technical knowledge. And it's only cost her about $300 of credits. I'm talking about a fully baked app. It implemented everything down to, you know, SMS verification, push notifications, emailing users. It, the whole not- - Yeah, wait, SMS, SMS, really an email. - Yeah, yeah, it had, it asked for a Twilio API. You just had to sign up to Twilio and then it gives, and give the key right in and paste it right into Repplet. And that's it, it completely configured everything. The app is fully functional and it's ready for deployment. So yeah, it's just been, it's been mind-blowing. She did all that in less than a week. - Wow. - Yeah. - Oh yeah, oh my God. - Zero experience, zero experience. - Dude, so yeah, so I made this episode a couple of days ago about how news publishers, their Google search traffic has been basically cut by half over the last two years. So like two years ago, you were getting twice as much, if you were a news publisher two years ago, you were getting twice as much traffic from Google search as you are getting now. And now, news publishers are depending on the Google Discover feed, which is really risky. And I made this episode, I'm like, I'm like, listen. Like, I mean, you, Ram, you've seen the bottom of fun of SEO landing pages that I throw up. You see how well they do, how well they work. And I'm like, listen, if you are a news publisher, you will have crazy SEO authority. You like, you can make one of these web apps now with one of these vibe coding tools, have a freemium model in and put up these pages so that users in your niche who are looking for exactly what you have built or what you have vibe coded come across what you made. And you can convert them then again with freemium and make money off that, talk to the users, iterate based on what they're saying, put in more bottom of funnel landing pages for the features that you launch and go that way. And then you've diversified your revenue. And it's like, if you, it's just, yeah, it's crazy that anyone can build a web app like this. - Yeah. And even if you don't wanna build out a full web app, what I've done to improve SEO and leverage getting traffic, I was able to make, and this is without any coding experience you can do this on your own. I would generate quick easy JavaScript tools that could be implemented onto our landing page. Sorry, example, simple tools like our debt calculator, which allows people to calculate how much they'll owe over the course of their loans or calculate interest. Some of these tools you've probably seen on sites like Credit Karma and others, I quickly five coded those within 30 seconds, just asking Gemini, anyone can do this. And it gives you the code. You could just paste it right into your HTML page. And you can add tools within minutes that people are searching for. And I did a search query just to find out what people are looking for in the debt space. And I saw three of the most search terms were debt snowball calculator and debt avalanche calculator and debt payoff calculator. And I realized there's only a few guys that actually build them out, built them out. So saw it as an opportunity. I went and generated them myself and put them within a minute, was able to paste it into a page. And I even took a screenshot of our page and said, make the tool look exactly like my web page would fit the brand and style of our landing page. And yeah, it built it within a minute. I was able to paste it in. And we're already seeing traffic from it within a week of putting it up of these three tools. And we are ranking already, I think, at the bottom of the first page for all these tools. So, and this is just within a week of putting it up. So, yeah, a huge opportunity. Here's site sound web flow. Yeah, use web flow. So, again, this is one most popular framework. It's whether using frame or web flow. You can put in an embed element and you're able to paste in custom code. You can go ahead and just ask, you know, Chad GPC Gemini, whichever platform you use, ask them to generate an embeddable widget for any of these tools and paste it right into your site. And voila. And the actual SEO stuff, that's just normally on the page in HTML, that's normal on the page in HTML so that search engines can understand it. All the limbs can understand it. It says, you know, this is a debt calculator. And then the calculator itself is the JavaScript. Right, yeah, and it's all front-end. You know, there's no server to it. This is all just quick tools. You know, you could create calculators for anything. Graphs, charts, all that could be generated on the front. And so you don't need any special software or anything. You just drop it in, write it to whatever your web hosting platform is or whatever CMS you're using. What did you say you used to build it to build the calculators? Oh, I just went to Gemini. To Gemini? Yeah. But you can, you can, Chad GPC will generate that for you or, you know, tons of these LMs are able to generate it for you really quickly, most of the popular ones. And so this is, I mean, this is an ongoing and a still at the beginning. But like, you are migrating the Reverb site. Are you using anti-gravity for that? Yeah, I am. So we're using screaming frog. And yeah, I'll let you tell it. Yeah, yeah. So we use screaming frog to find all the pages we're going to need to transfer. But anti-gravity has a crazy feature where it opens up Chrome. And you can see it doing it. And essentially takes over your Chrome browser and acts as an actual user. So it's not just scraping. It's actually going through as a user and you can see it. And can visit every single page. Obviously scrape, grab data, interact with that page. So it essentially grabbed, anti-gravity went and grabbed every single page we have. Keeping all the same tags, canonical data, everything to maintain the exact site structure, to migrate a WordPress site, which is what we have for our landing and information pages. And convert and put into our next JS app without me really lifting a finger. It took a while because we've had hundreds of pages. But it all first shot. It already got about 90% of the way there. And now manually making changes, it even implemented and updated and refreshed UI for our landing page while I was at it to match our web app, which is incredible. That's crazy. And the web app won't be a subdomain anymore, it'll be a subfolder. Yeah, it even updated the paths and it completely transferred it over so that there's no longer lives on a subdomain. The entire site lives on one domain. And yeah, it's doing all that in afternoon. This is a migration that would not only be extremely tricky, but would likely take an engineer a week or two to implement. And it will all be server side rendered. Yep, yep. So the skeptic can be is like, I mean, the SEO is so good and like, you don't fix it if it ain't broke. So how, who's like, I think you were telling me that it is reviewing its work itself. So it is reviewing the metadata. It is reviewing the internal links, the anchor text, everything to make sure that it maintains what is on the WordPress site while it migrates it. Yeah, yeah, it's essentially, it's taken, it's taken everything both on the like the source code. So the entire HTML so you could see how it's rendered to a user and to search engines. I even in the in the prompt, I make sure to specify if to maintain the same structure. And if anything, make additional improvements to anything that any that we may have missed. Like if there are any missing tags, make sure to implement changes and to summarize them before you implement them. So you know, one of the tricks to do with before you do anything, I mean, it's maybe common sense to some, but always run in planning mode and create an implementation first, list first before you let the agent run off. So you can review and see every single thing it's about to do before you move forward. And it saves you one a ton of time because it makes the agent able to execute things in one shot. Once you've approved the implementation plan, but to allows you to review and make sure it's not doing something that you didn't ask it to or not only that, but also make sure that the plan makes sense. But yeah, it is able to do all of that and maintain all existing structure. And in my it what it seems to have done is also make improvements on some of the pages. So you did it already and it's just on staging. Yeah, it's currently on stage. Oh, I haven't checked it out. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, you were waiting to surprise you when it's on the sky, but you've been clicking through it. How is it? It's great. Things load very quickly. It even rearrange while keeping the same structure, SEO optimizations. It updated our blog pages to make them much more readable and just updated the styling. Yeah. It looks fantastic. Wow. Crazy. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Keep in mind, this is a site that we've had the same structure for for we haven't touched six years. Yeah. We have not touched the site since I think it was like beginning of 2000 or end of 2021 or beginning of 2021, something like that. And the rankings have persisted since then. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm like, I'm always like hesitant, but it's just so interesting and I'm very curious. Yeah. No, I mean, the actual structure of the site has been there for like six years. But yeah, the last time you've made updates in terms of, you know, content wise was probably about four years ago. So beginning of 2021 or end of 2021 or end of 2021. Get a match that's being apprehensive on changing something that old. I mean, it's the point where we like, you know, we're holding back on making certain updates on WordPress because it's, you know, it's like, it's legacy, but, but now, yeah, it's, it made a migration that we were putting off for years, essentially like an afternoon project. And so talk about, talk about now, like, let's say you wanted to throw up a new page or a new blog post or make a change to something. So then you just have to actually do that through a command or is there a way to go in and do that? Yeah. First thing, how this stuff has changed workflows, right? We're so used to using either, you know, graphical UIs like tools so that we can, whether it's like a web flow or a framer or even WordPress elemental or plug in or, or, you know, what you see is what you get editors or were used to coding as an interface for engineers. But the new workflow now, even with creating blog pages, as easy as just writing a prompt and saying what you want written, and you can either paste in the actual article text you want or you can literally give a high level detailed explanation of what you'd like the article to be and literally have, you know, let's say, clawed, write it for you. And yeah, and then it creates the blog page automatically and adds the title and adds subtitle and everything as if you were using one of these interfaces, but now you could just type it. And if you're too lazy to type it, you can speak it. In fact, one of the workflow acts that people don't know about is to download a tool called Whisper Flow. It's a tool that essentially instantly transcribes what you're saying as in milliseconds. So which feels instant, it's almost instant in the way it's perceived, but you can literally speak your commands. And even in run-on sentences, you could mention specific variables, titles, special pronouns, and you'll automatically know what you're saying and reframe it so that you could put it into a prompt. And that seems immense time. Like your workflow now becomes as natural as thoughts rambling in your head and you could speak it out and it'll automatically reframe the prompt and essentially you're like five publishing on your blog or blog posts on your landing pages. So it's really, yeah, workflows change completely. Again, you can still use the existing editors if you'd like, but I find myself prompting for new pages to be created and it's way faster than actually going through any existing framework. You're using, it's called Whisper Flow. Yeah. And there are others that are out there, but that's the most popular one. So how different is it if you just said to chat GPT, I'm going to give you like some rambling, off the top of my head, turned it into a prompt. You can at this point, these elements are so smart that they are going to decipher what you're saying for the most part. So you can. That is a trick. That is a trick. A lot of people don't know to just like, you actually want to speak as much as you can and give as much information as you can. I do that all the time. Yeah. That's exactly why I started using Whisper Flow. It's recently because I realized by trying to properly format sentences, I leave out so much context and without the context, you know, you're not going to get the exact result you want. And doing this saves the steps, takes three steps into one step and that's the difference maker that I think the most surprising thing about what's happening right now is the speed in which workflows and even the methods in which people are using the LM's are changing on a daily basis. There is no correct way to do things. At first, people were saying you'd have to structure and tell LM's to behave a certain way to get the results you want. But now the LM's now automatically assume the person is necessary to execute your tasks. So now they're removing steps in the workflow on a daily basis. So, you know, what I'm saying right now by the time the podcast is out, maybe it'll be out tomorrow. It'll be out tomorrow. It might be. But maybe. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. It might already be outdated, right? So, you know, so this is why now I just dump my thoughts and let the LM's kind of figure out what to do moving forward. I'm curious. I haven't asked you this. So, anti-gravity, it sounds like anti-gravity is the most, it's like the most sophisticated and pretty much the best. Is it, would you call it a vibe coding tool? It wouldn't, yes, it can, but I would say this is more so like an ID like cursor. It can absolutely bycodes, it's, it's, it's, it's, explain what an ID is. So ID is basically like a, it's like a development tool. It's for, it's for developers to essentially see all the code files. It's almost like Google Docs for your code. But it also allows you to, you know, run any environment or any app that you're running. So I would say, so cursor was the first ID to implement AI into it that's, that was popularized. I know that there was a visual studio that was that kind of started implementing a co-pilot which was like AI into it, but cursor is the first like popular one. And it's probably still the best one overall if you're an engineer, I would say. But it, what makes anti-gravity special is all of the models included right now are free. So even if you were just messing around and just want to vibe code something or, or you just want to test using AI and your development tool stack, I would say it's worth a shot because it's during previous completely free. And the fact that it's Google, if you have any Google based projects like if you use Google Cloud features in your project or Firebase or any of those, I think it's exceptional at running those type of projects and being able to iterate on those, which is why it was our first go to for reverb and other projects that we've built before. So I would highly recommend it right now, especially while it's in developer preview. But cursor is great as well. I don't want to say anti-gravity is necessarily better. I even have heard that some of the team members from cursor were involved in the building of anti-gravity. Yeah, they're both phenomenal, I think. Models did you say were the best that people are sleeping on and these are like new models that have actually made this really feasible where it's like making just dramatically less mistakes. The two best models right now, I think, are Gemini 3, whether you use the Pro or the Fast and Opus 4.5 which is Clawed's latest model, 4.5 feels like engineering has, as we know it, it has a shelf life of maybe two or three months. That's how complicated 4.5 is. It's insane. I don't even know how much better it can get other than speed wise. I find it making very few errors. Dude, I'm always inspired by this because for somebody like me, the mode is your marketing and branding. It's like that's what I'm good at and that's what I show people how to do it. When anyone can create anything, how do you differentiate yourself? Some things, there's like regulation, you need permits and stuff, but for a lot of things you don't. You just spin it up, whoever has the best marketing, the best branding is going to win. Yeah. I mean, the new phrase is "distribution is the most", and yes, it's more, it couldn't be more relevant right now. I see the cost trending towards zero for building, as long as you have agency and you're motivated to build, so now it's about how can you reach people and be at the forefront of people's minds for the solution that you're building. I would say SEO or just being at the forefront of queries seems to be the most, I guess, foolproof way of ensuring to have a mode because even the distribution through social channels, TikTok, IG, Reels, while obviously there's a huge user base to reach on those platforms. Most platforms are getting smarter at detecting who's using them to distribute, and they're making it more difficult to distribute without paying them. It thinks so? Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So, one of the things we've noticed is, our primary distribution has been… It's with relief. Yeah. So, for relief, we've been both paid and organic, social media has been our number one driver of traffic. So, getting people on TikTok primarily and IG, Reels, and what we've noticed is, many of the organic posts, which would normally bring traffic, now we're seeing some of them nerfed because, I guess, the platforms have caught on and detected when people are creating content that is selling a product, right? So, they started nerfing if you mention apps or mention products in your content because they're starting to realize when pages are either run or managed by brands. So, and the main reason they're doing that is because they want you to essentially pay for their paid ads, which guarantee distribution because you're paying for it. They've removed the ability to pin comments, for example, because they know people use pinned comments to drive traffic. They've removed the ability to put links in bio without a certain number of following to prevent people from posting their projects or their brands or businesses. Is it catching on? Just TikTok or it's at Instagram too. Both. Both. Interesting. Yeah. This is the first time that I'm hearing this, by the way. Yeah. So, this is someone who posts every day on these platforms. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, obviously if you're really good at it, it's going to fly, but you're going to have to. Have you seen other people talking about this? You showed me on Axe. I used to make podcast episodes about him. It's IMGDSA. You showed me him. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Are these people talking about this? I mean, like, we always talk about, like, we're always talking about different social strategies or like the strap, the things that Alan is doing, for example, Alan is, for people listening Alan is a mutual friend of ours. So like, the things that Alan is doing, is that like impacting, because he's putting up so promotional social media videos, so is that impacting him like, yeah, like are you, you're really seeing this and other people are saying this. Yeah. Yeah. People are definitely seeing this. Many of the people making, you know, social content as a strategy for aquid, like, Cosmic. Okay. Sorry. Let me ask you this. What if it's, what if it is like an ad, but it's good. It's entertaining. People like it. People aren't swiping up or down or people aren't swiping away. Is it still, is it still getting reduced visibility? Well, that's the trick, right? Like now you have to make something so engaging and people so, isn't that always, hasn't that always been it? Yes, but sometimes an idea was good enough that, like, you could make a direct mention of the app and people would still go look for it, right? So like, for example, an organic review where it could seem organic, like a person saying, man, this app saved me a bunch of time, it helped me with XYZ. That was an organic review that would have worked before. But now, the algorithms are. I'm going to challenge you on the screen. I just, I think, I just think it's, there's more good content. Like, there's like, people are super powered with AI. There's more creators because people like me screaming their heads off about how easy it is to be a creator. There's more creators. People are super powered by AI. AI Slop can be really, really fun to watch. I think it's just more competitive. I've actually, not only myself, but several of the people in this space have actually run tests on it and mentioning the word app or mentioning, at all, as a word, literally could seem, make the same type of content, reduces the reach drastically, and it then reduces the reach on other videos subsequently, on that same account drastic. What? Yeah. So. Who's talking about how to explain? If I want to go like, if I want to go see other people talking about this, who's talking about this right now? Yeah. I'd have to send you some of the accounts. I follow a lot of people in the solo marketing space, or also people just use social content as a strategy, or the spider strategy, creating massive amounts of organic content with multiple accounts. Yeah. They're noticing it as well. Wow. That does not mean that the strategy is over. You can still use it. But like you said now, it has to be that the content just shows the usage of it and never mentions it. That's crazy. It's crazy. You can't say you can't say app. Well, in certain contexts, right? Again, the platforms are, they're running models themselves. They're smart at detecting if something truly was an ad or wasn't. If they look at app combined with context of other words used in that post, it might flag it as potentially an ad, right? So that and also you're getting smarter obviously. You're saying undisclosed, undisclosed, sponsored content. Yep. And yeah. So a lot of that is being kind of nerfed. But how are people getting around this? They're getting around it by making longer and longer story type content, which does not speak about the app at all. Oh, I've kind of tried and they try to weave the content. They try to weave the plug in somewhere at the end of the story. And so that way, the majority of it seems like an organic story, even to the algorithm. And it allows people to still get it off and go viral. So that's what I'm seeing now. Others are just potentially showing the use of a site or app in context with the in the video without mention ever mentioning it. And then they also people will just organically comment and seed comments as well on their own posts to get mentions. That's really how they're getting around it. But the platforms are getting smarter because otherwise it was getting cheaper to just have people create content than paying the platforms to essentially by traffic. How about brands who are putting up content about their own brand? Is that getting nerfed too? If it's good content, it won't get nerfed per se, but again, the reach won't be anywhere near as high as an individual on TikTok, posting an organic post, at least that's not what I've seen. There are some brands that get away with it, but that's just because their content is so entertaining that it goes viral just off of sharing, not just the algorithm. You know, and you were saying something compelling, you can't stop people from telling other people about it. Yeah. I'm saying so because of social SEO is the place to be. I feel like it's the most predictable, and also creating content requires constant iteration, right? Like something that works, it'll last for three days, four days, and then you have to come up with something else. And people's tastes and the content cycle is so fast now that you'd have to constantly iterate and put out creative, and that's exhausting and costly, especially if you're hiring creators to help you, you know, how creative can you get? Whereas SEO, it's like once you have a stronghold, it pretty much stays for a while, you know, but in the content first world, you have to constantly create content, doesn't matter how popular you are, you know, your next, your next video is as, is only as good as your next hit, you know, and I mean, you've seen how you can put up these pages that will target people looking for what exactly you are offering, exactly what you have made, and how they convert, and then they just rank number one for so many years, like you've, you've seen that first hand, that is crazy, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's insane, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy. SEO is a, SEO is going to be the key, the game, I think, moving forward, unless the search, unless albums and search change, I, which, you know, even, even as they change, you're going to need to have some hierarchy of what they choose, and I can't see that going away. Yeah, I mean, you, you probably know this, they're, they're so pulling for, for, for, props where people want up to date information, they are pulling from search engines, albums are pulling from search engines, yeah, yeah, um, we're, so where would you recommend if someone just, like, okay, someone's listened to this and someone's like, I want to make a web app right now as a subdomain app.mysout.com. And I want to make it, I want to make it today, like, and, and I've never made an app that I'm not a developer. Where should somebody go to do this? I would start with replete. I think that's the easiest from scratch. And another one I would recommend for mobile apps is anything. It's called anything. Just go to anything.com. Those are the two places that I would recommend right now. If we're trying to make something from scratch, replete for web, for sure, and potentially mobile and anything for mobile apps. And, and people can use these as well to make, uh, to just make apps that they can embed onto pages, like your debt calculators. Oh, yeah, for those embed pages, just go on, you said, Gemini, Gemini, Gemini or ChatGPT will do it for you. Yeah. You know, it's cool. You sent me, I think I, I think it was you, you sent me the reviews. They're like, the scrolling reviews that you made for relief. Yeah. I thought that was all by coded through, uh, through, uh, through, uh, on anti-gravity through, through, through, that was anti-gravity. Yeah. Yeah. It did that automatically. That was a updating or existing app. I just added to it to add that feature. And it did. Yeah. You could probably just do that. I mean, anyone could probably do that with Gemini because what I want to do for my newsletter, I was talking about this yesterday on the podcast. I just like, I always get a lot of really nice emails about my weekly newsletter. People are like, this is great. The best newsletter. I read everything. I binge it. Like, you've inspired me all of this stuff. And I should just take all of these, give it to Gemini and then have it make, uh, a scrolling carousel of these reviews of these positive reviews right below the fold or something. Maybe, maybe, uh, maybe above the fold, but at the bottom, something like that. And I saw, definitely, yeah, you could definitely have, you could build anything you want. It's, it's exceptional. I'm putting in animations and, um, you know, all types of UI updates. You should definitely check it out. Yeah. Graham, Graham, thank you for coming on the podcast. There's been a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Hopefully this isn't the last. I hope so, dude. I mean, uh, you, I made an episode about you. I think it was summer of 2000. I mean, I think you remember, remember this. It was summer, 2024. And I'm like, one of my co-founders is like the smartest person ever. So he's so articulate and has very interesting, contrary and ideas. And I'm constantly telling him if you posted on social more, you would blow up that everyone would know who you are because the things that you have to say are always interesting. You don't really post that much on social, but I'm still very grateful that you came on this show. Yeah. Well, luckily, this platform is like yours, where I can, I can have fallen for now. Um, but one day, maybe we're should everybody. I mean, like, you don't post a lot, but we're should everybody look for you. Um, if anything, I post it on Twitter and it's, it's my name, Ron Barrow, that's my Twitter handle, R M B E R O U E T. And yeah, if somebody wanted to contact you, how would they do it? Steam either. Okay. Ram, Ram Barrow, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you. This episode, 908 of the Edward show, 908 days in a row doing this crazy podcast. No days missed. I'm feeling great. Ram Barrow, that is feeling great. You're feeling great. If you watch us on YouTube, thank you so much for watching. If you listened on Spotify or Apple podcasts, thank you so much for listening. And I will talk to you again tomorrow. Bye now.