Veteran White House reporter April Ryan’s ‘Blacklash’

This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. For nearly three decades, my guest today, journalist April Ryan, has reported from the White House briefing room, covering five presidents, from Bill Clinton to Donald Trump. She spent most of those years at American Urban Radio Networks, a Black-owned national network. Today, the Trump administration is in court with CNN, MSNOW, and Politico after barring their reporters from the White House. A federal judge has temporarily ordered their access restored. Ryan saw an earlier version of this. During Trump's first term, her exchanges with the president and his press secretaries turned personal, and several went viral. In 2017, she asked Sean Spicer, Trump's first press secretary, whether the Russia investigations were becoming a problem for the administration. Spicer then turned the question on her. How does this administration try to. How does this administration try to revamp its image? Two and a half months in, you've got this Yates story today. You've got other things going on. You've got Russia. You've got wiretapping. You've got. No, we don't have that. You. I know. on Capitol Hill. No, no, I get it, but you keep. I've said it from the day that I got here until whatever, that there is no connection. You've got Russia. If the president puts Russian salad dressing on his salad tonight, somehow that's a Russian connection. But every single person. No, I. Well, no, that's. I appreciate your agenda here, but the reality is. Oh, no, no, hold on. No, at some point, report the facts. The facts are that every single person who has been briefed on this subject has come away with the same conclusion. Republican, Democrat, so I'm sorry that that disgusts you. You're shaking your head. That was my guest April Ryan with Sean Spicer in 2017. Her new book is Notes on a Blacklash, When a Black Woman Goes Viral. And it's about what happened when the reporter asking the question. became part of the story. And April Ryan, welcome to Fresh Air. Tanya, thank you so much for having me. And, you know, you triggered me a little bit with that Sean Spicer flashback. You know, I was thinking about that, especially with the way you write about not only the impact on your work, but the impact personally. And I was just wondering, do you remember the first time you realized that the responses you were getting in the White House press room. weren't just about your question anymore? You know, the responses were to send a message to my fellow journalists in the room who worked for other companies. This could be you if you asked the wrong question. At the end of the day, I asked Sean Spicer, look, you know, what are you going to do to revamp your image? That wasn't a question where he could have gone off on me. He could have just said, hey, you know what we're trying to do. Let's continue to talk to the American people. But he wanted to make news. He wanted to have a moment. He did. And it was shocking to me because I said, this is not trite. This is a serious question. And then his response, I just couldn't believe it. And I shook my head side to side. I'm a grown woman, just as he is a grown man. He chastised me worse than he would a child in front of the world. I want to delve in with you. I want to delve in with you on something you call the chilling effect, because we have seen over the last few weeks, the White House moved to bar reporters from outlets, CNN and MSNOW and Politico. And it's kind of different than what you are describing in this book, but it made me think of the broader point you were making. Because you write that it isn't always censorship that we kind of think about imposed by law. Sometimes it's self-censorship out of exhaustion, out of being called. It's called out of your name consistently in the White House press corps room. Have you ever felt that happening to you, that because of what you have endured, that you have found yourself self-censoring? Yes, self-censoring, being more strategic. Self-censoring, meaning watching my words. They may still be the same, but watching how I string words together that could invoke the ire of someone who still is. They may be so sycophantic in their support of this president who could harm me. And we are in that era. There is a concern about many of the reporters who support the president who just outright don't like me. And I just want to lay out, we're talking about in the press corps, inside of this press briefing room, because there are people who represent legacy institutions, independent news organizations, bloggers. Influencers who are now increasingly having a seat at the table. Increasingly having a seat at the table. And we are on the menu. The press that they feel that don't give the president his due or respect him. I mean, I even heard recently from one of our traditional journalist friends who said that they had to stop writing their questions. Because many. Many of the reporters or the people that I'm talking about right now would take pictures of it and send it out. That's how treacherous it is. How it's. I tell people sometimes we need combat pay. And I'm jokingly saying this inside that room because it's gotten so combative. It wasn't always like this. Yes. Okay. So, you know, I can imagine that it's always been competitive. You all are trying to. Write a story or report a story. And you want your story to be the best one or get the best information. But someone taking a photo of your questions and putting that out on the Internet. I mean, that's another level here. That's another level. Not only that, you can't. I mean, we used to have a camaraderie. All of us worked for different organizations. There used to be a camaraderie. We could laugh. We could talk. And you say something. It's either reported upstairs to the lower press office. Or. The White House. The administration. Or it is publicized. It's to that point. And it has been. I mean, we saw it in the first term. But the second term. It is. It's gotten much worse. You actually write about. Another kind of pressure on reporters. Which is kind of the sheer volume and chaos of the news coming out of the White House. And so I think we all understood this. That at first. What you thought. You were seeing online. You thought might simply be dysfunction or incompetence. But over time, you came to believe that all of this is deliberate. What convinced you. To see the president himself. Repost AI and things of that nature. There is a calculated attempt. To discredit. To diminish the press. And the president. Is the number one leader of this effort. I mean, look at what's happening right now. Ms now. Politico. And CNN. He goes after the reporters. And now it is the organization. The organization. Can't get into the White House. You have to get court orders. Judge to rule that they can get into the White House. Now it's Air Force. One this president has already said. The press is the enemy of the people. We have targets on our backs. And if that's not enough, he doesn't want us around because we are doing what Ida B. Wells said, no matter what organization we are. We are putting a bright light on what's happening to share with the American public. That is what our charge is. That is what the founding fathers are. White. Founding fathers told us to do. We are. The fourth estate. We are that layer when checks and balances don't balance out. And this president has helped that dysfunction occur. You've come up with the word for what has happened specifically for you and other black reporters. And you call it black lash. Yeah. What does that mean? I'm not just going to say it's for reporters. Tanya, I'm going to go as far as saying it's for the broader community. The black lash for me, all of the threats, the Caesar Sayoc bomb that I received, the FBI. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, slow down. Yes. You have to say more about what happened there. Okay. So that Caesar Sayoc bomb, that was the first term I got one of those packages like CNN received president and Mrs. Obama. Um, the Clintons, I got one of those packages. Caesar Sayoc was this Florida man who was accused of sending pipe bombs to several prominent critics of president Donald Trump. And you received one too. Yes. I still have the tweet when I used to, um, be on CNN, uh, as a pundit and I'll never forget the tweet said Caesar Sayoc had said something to the effect he had my picture and Don Lemon's. picture, you're next. And who knew what you're next is? People were going through it before the FBI, before the federal government took down his profile and all of his tweets, people were sending it to me. I was like, what? And this was after the initial fake bombs came out. And a little later on that summer, this is before I had to move my home because of the threats and everything. And people watching me at home, the unsafety, if that's a word, the non-safe atmosphere. My kids and I would always talk about that. We're safe now. But I know. So that summer, just a few months after they showed the envelope and the bomb and everything, I got one. But Tanya, I'm going to say this. Because we stopped to elaborate on the Cesar Sayoc bomb. Look at what's happened to Jim Acosta, April Ryan, Abby Phillip, and Yamiche Alcindor the first term. Also journalists, Rachel Scott and Akilah Gardner. Now look at lawmakers like Angie Nixon of Florida, who the vice president said, because she's using her bullhorn to bring attention to this ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous, districting effort that's meant to suppress certain groups. The vice president just last week said, if she doesn't like what's happening here, if she doesn't like this country, she can leave. What about LaMonica McIver, the congresswoman whose job is being weaponized against her when she was in Newark, New Jersey at Delaney Hall, trying to go in to this ICE detention center to see what the conditions were. That's the blacklash, these blacklashes. Women who are going viral for authenticity and doing their jobs. And yet what comes next is the slap, the trauma, the blacklash. April, you have spent most of your career in black media, and you were also a political analyst for CNN for several years. Did you ever seriously consider leaving black media for a reporting job at one of the major national news organizations? You know, I felt that I was needed where I was needed at the time. I'm no longer in black media, but I felt I was needed at the time because I'll never forget going into that White House, January 13th, 1997. And I would ask questions about the underserved, a black community that's hurting, a community that has the highest numbers of negatives in almost every category. And some of my colleagues, they considered me to be militant. But think about this, all of America is covered. And then to ask a question about a community that's underserved, I'm considered militant. Yeah, so I was needed where I was positioned for that time. And I'm still doing what I do, but not for black-owned media. But if you understand the dynamic right now and the economy, black media has been hit hard. Black media has been hit tremendously by this anti-woke, anti-DEI effort of the president's. And the problem is, is that a lot of advertisers don't want to do business now with black media because of the anti-DEI, anti-woke philosophies that the president has. So a lot of my colleagues are losing jobs. And a lot of my colleagues are not able to tell the stories the way they want to. And it is sad. This administration has crippled a lot of institutions that you don't even know are ailing or on life support right now, literally. I'm thinking about the importance of black media in 1997 in contrast to 2026. Because, you know, now we have the advent of the internet and other places where people can get information for better or for worse. But I want to unpack just a little bit of that. I want to unpack just a little bit of that. What you're saying that you felt like it was needed. Are you saying that traditional media really was not serving the needs of black communities? So, Tanya, yes, I am saying that because the problem is, is when there is a crescendo moment, you hear about the Trayvon Martins. You hear about the George Floyds. But we've been talking about it for a while. You hear about the lynchings. You hear about Gary, Indiana, and the power outages when other richer, wealthier zip codes get their power weeks before the poor neighborhoods get their power. We've been talking about this and reporting this for a long time. But only until that crescendo moment is when mainstream media wants to delve into what's going on. But there's so much that goes under the radar until the crescendo moment. What does working for black press allow you to do to deepen our understanding of those complexities? Because sometimes, just frankly, traditional media has a problem with nuance. So you say traditional media sometimes has a problem with nuance. They have a problem with time. They don't have as much time. You know, if you write a story, you have almost as much paper as you can write, almost. You know, but. Unfortunately, now a lot of people are not reading. They're into the videos and give me the information as quick as you can. I mean, for me and black media, I consider myself someone who has a hand here, hand there, hand everywhere. I can pull someone and get information from them. You know, I was one of the first people nationally who did an interview with the mayor of Gary, Indiana, when Gary was without power for such a long time. It allows you to have communities say, hey, look, I need to talk to so-and-so. Connect me to so-and-so. I mean, if you have enough of a network, you can put the story in front of an audience to fully understand why this is a story. Why is it important and why shouldn't it be at the level of the White House or at Capitol Hill? I also would like to know what it has been like to be. Among traditional news outlets and the perception of you, the questions that you ask. And there is a clip that I want to play from February of 2017. This is actually at one of President Trump's first press conferences. And here he is talking about what the administration plans to do for inner cities. You ask him a question about meeting with the Congressional Black Caucus. Let's listen. So we're going to do a lot of work on the inner cities. I have great people lined up to help with the inner cities. When you say the inner cities, are you going to include the CBC, Mr. President, in your conversations with your urban agenda, your inner city agenda, as well as. Am I going to include who? Are you going to include the Congressional Black Caucus and the Congressional Hispanic Caucus? Well, I would. I tell you what, do you want to set up the meeting? Do you want to set up the meeting? No, no, no. Are they friends of yours? I'm just a reporter. No, get it. Set up the meeting. I know some of them, but I'm sure. Let's go. Set up a meeting. I would love to meet with the Black Caucus. I think it's great. That was my guest, April Ryan, in the White House press briefing, posing a question. To President Trump back in 2017. April, when you said, I'm just a reporter, what were you insisting on in that moment? First of all, no one wants to be known for this kind of stuff. You want to be known for your work, your body of work. I'm a reporter. I'm not the convener of a meeting. I'm not your secretary. I'm not the convener. I'm supposed to be watching what's going on and writing about it. I'm not setting it up. I'm not the. Story. That's what I meant. And, you know, a lot of my colleagues were like, I'm so glad you said that. That was wrong. And then to say, are they friends of yours? That was a little rough. Because you worked for Black Press, though, have you ever felt you had to prove your objectivity in ways that some of your colleagues haven't? I used to, and now I don't care. Because you know why? A lot of the reporters that I work with, they go to. Lunch with many of the sources at the White House. They know each other's families. But if there is a Black official, and I'm talking to them, the game changes. There's something wrong. So, yeah, during the Obama years, it was very interesting to watch those same people who would have dinners and call and walk into offices of these White House officials got very upset. Because I was able to connect on a different level than they were. And that level was intelligence. They saw me. They gave me a chance as well as the others. Now, during the Bush years, I was able to sit in a few times. During the Clinton years, a few times. But when people feel that the game has changed, or the pieces have moved in different areas, they get upset. So, I was doing exactly what they did. And I have no apologies for it. April Ryan. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. I kind of want to pull back for a moment because there is a longer history behind some of what you're talking about, what you're experiencing. It's with this administration, but there have been Black women who have been in your shoes before. There is Ethel Payne from 1954. She's a Washington correspondent for the Chicago Defender. She asked President Eisenhower whether his administration would support legislation banning segregation in interstate travel, and Eisenhower responded that his administration wasn't there to support any particular or special group. Now we're 70 years later. How are you grappling with this understanding of where you sit in history? Who gets to bring their own knowledge and experience into that room, and who is just going to be the one to do it? Who is still being seen as a reporter? You bring up Ethel Payne, brought chills, and that question that she asked brought chills to me. That's 70 years ago, you say. 70 years ago, you had Ethel Payne dare to ask that question, and the president of the United States said, I don't deal with any special groups. That's not a special group. That's America, right? That's part of America. But that was the mindset back then, and now we're in 2026. There's a rollback. I'm not a special group. I am America, and I'm so much so un-American that the founding fathers put in place for all of us, the journalists, to be able to ask questions of the White House, of the government for accountability, and then I want to take you back to the Kerner Commission report. If we want to talk about special groups, if we want to consider someone a special group, the Kerner Commission report, at the back of the report, it talked about journalists. It talked about Black journalists being in spaces and places like the White House, City Hall, the State House, so that we could ask questions to get answers to quell any kind of upset. That was a 1968 to quell any kind of upset through answers to our questions. And now in 2026, we can't even ask. The last White House press conference I attended in the briefing room was with J.D. Vance. There were at least five Black journalists in that room. He did not call on not one. He did not call on one. In their mind, just because of the color of our skin, we're considered DEI or woke. And now it's not just the Black press or the Brown press, our brothers and sisters, our Latino brothers and sisters and cousins. It's all types of press. And Tanya, if they would have stood with me, I'd be here today. When you say they, what do you, who do you mean? The White House Correspondents Association, the American public, the companies, the broadcast companies that had journalists in the White House, because they didn't think, they didn't have the foresight to understand if he does it to them, he'll do it to us. And that's exactly what he did. I had a member of the White House Correspondents Association board, and I had a member of the White House Correspondents Association board, and I had a member of the board. Now, I was a member of the board at one time. I had a member of their board tell me when I asked, I said, I'm getting death threats. I need some help. What do you want us to do? They could have at least put, talked to them about the sharpness, the shrillness against us. What made you decide in the first place that journalism was the place that you were going to step into? I didn't know it was going to be journalism. I thought it was going to be some form of broadcasting. I started out as a jazz DJ at WEAA-FM in Baltimore, and I just gave the legal time, the time stamp, top of the hour stamp. No, it's an NPR-affiliated station. And I wanted to be in the business. And I said, something is missing, because I am that person who loves journalism. I love journalism. I love journalism. I love journalism. I love journalism. I love news information. I consider myself a sponge. But it was like I fell into it. I really did fall into the White House. But I loved news, because that's what I grew up on. Walter Cronkite, that's the way it was. I grew up with my parents listening and engaging in news, be it AM radio in the mornings or listening when schools were open or closed because of snow. We always had information in our household. And being a DJ, I missed that. And I said, wait a minute. So I wound up producing a show at WEAA. And I said, I like this. And then I wound up going different places, becoming a news person and doing the freelance, a lot of the freelance stringer stories. American Urban Radio Networks found me. And it was a pivotal time with the NAACP. They were changing leadership. And I was breaking stories about that. And in 1997, they said, we want to give you this job. Is that what you mean by falling into covering politics in the White House? That's exactly what I mean. I did not have the political background that many of our journalism friends had. A lot of them covered the Hill prior to. Some of them didn't. But I mean, I fell right into the White House. And I'll never forget my late boss, Jerry Lopes, said, oh, it's just like a larger version of City Hall. I'm like, yeah, right. Do you remember that first time you stepped into that press briefing room? Yes, I do. I remember the first time I stepped in. It was a shock because it's different than it is now. But newspapers were all over the place. People were sleeping and just hanging out, waiting for the next event. It was a hurry up and wait. And then George W. Bush changed the room. It's not as hectic as it was then, meaning the newspapers and everything, because we're not doing news like we used to like that. We're digital and looking at our phones. And the crews, there are not as many crews. There's not as much, by the way, of lighting or sound crews like there used to be around. But it was amazing. I remember walking through Lafayette Park and looking at this stark white building and just being like, oh, my God, there's so many people. Being in awe, like, oh, my God, I'm going to work there. This is the place where Dr. King talked to LBJ and JFK, trying to get me my rights to be. I'm really fascinated by just the changes that you've seen over time with each administration. Is there a particular press briefing, especially during the Bush administration, that stands out to you? Because, you know, his first term was really impacted by 9-11. Yeah. George W. Bush is a man who did not show up in print as the person that I got to know during those eight years. 9-11, really, 9-11 and what happened after. WMD, Weapons of Mass Destruction, which we didn't find. Really, 9-11, really did not show up in print as the person that I got to know during those eight years. Dogged this president. However, another issue that really weighed him down, that it still bothers him today, Katrina. And then I'll never forget when Kanye West got on that television program saying George W. Bush doesn't like Black people. That hurt both the Bushes. I remember traveling with Laura Bush on her plane down to Mississippi, after Katrina and meeting with the family. She says, I know my husband. And that is not the case. And she was very prolific in her support for him and how he felt. It was something we'd never had happened before. They were waiting for the state to come and ask instead of the federal government just jumping in. It's again, this issue that we always hear about, particularly with Republican states' rights. They wanted the state to ask. But the state and the city were hurting, trying to save and rescue people and trying to house them adequately or inadequately. But there's also something great that he did. He signed into law the National Museum of African American History and Culture, who was looking over his shoulder, John R. Lewis, the late John R. Lewis, who was then a congressman, who was also a civil rights icon. And also Cicely Tyson, the greatest one of the greatest actresses that we've ever seen. It's His presidency was very different. But one of the most impactful briefings for me was several of them during the Katrina time. He would just call him, April, I know you got a question. I know you got every time because he knew other people weren't thinking about it. That is why it is important for people from all different walks of life to be a part of that briefing room because everyone is not asking the same question about America or other issues in the world. Let's take a short break. My guest today is journalist April Ryan, who has covered the White House since the Clinton administration. Her new book is Notes on a Black Lash, When a Black Woman Goes Viral. We'll continue our conversation after this. This is Fresh Air. And we've gone through many examples through our conversation of really you being questioned on your objectivity, your journalism. When I started, I never thought it would be like this. And like I said, I fell into it. If I would have had some kind of preview screen in front of me to tell me what I would be going through, I don't know if I would have stayed there. The course, I got this job when I was young and dumb, going through high school, kind of thinking I'm going to do this, going through college, saying, yeah, I want to be in broadcasting. And then when I'm out of college, this is what I want to do, never knowing I would be in Washington. The stakes are high and the game has changed. Reporters are now the target for a lot of people. And it's sad. And it did come at a cost because like I said, to have a president of the United States call you out continuously and then have his minions come after you, the stress. I mean, I would leave the White House and people would be standing there waiting for me. There were calculated moments. Standing there waiting for you for what? To do what? To intimidate me. I had to employ bodyguards. But here's the thing. The stress, I did lose hands. Hair, thank God, has come back. It was touch and go for a long time with my hair because like I say in the book, there were times that I didn't even recognize myself. Stress will do that to you. It will also attack your body and mental trauma. I have been diagnosed with acute and chronic post-traumatic stress disorder. And I wanted people to see what happens there and the stakes. This. This kind of gives you a broad view of what has happened, what could have, in my opinion, stopped it, and what is happening and gotten worse. What I'm also getting from this book and from talking to you, though, is, I mean, and from what we're seeing, is right now we're in a moment where there are tremendous threats against press freedom. And you are saying what has happened to you, what you have experienced is one. Yes, yes, yes. And what do you wish someone had told you? And what do you feel like we need to consider and know in this moment as we think about your story, as we think about these institutions who are now in legal battles with the administration over being able to cover this administration? Stand up. Journalists are not supposed to be seen. We're supposed to be blended into. To the wall, to the background and write the story. We can go back and do that. But right now we are the story, unfortunately. And if we don't band together, the industry will be impacted worse than it is now. I am afraid for the industry. I'm afraid for the news programs, good news programs. I'm afraid because we didn't stand up. What does standing up look like? Like lawyers. We have to meet with the White House and say what we cannot tolerate. And, you know, when a reporter in the room asks a question, it's a good question. Somebody else stand behind. That's what they used to do. And ask it again. You know, we are not in these silos. We are together. We are not activists, but we got to activate for this industry, for the American public. It's all linked together. Where do you see your role now? It was very clear. When you were part of the press corps and you're still covering all the things you covered before, but where do you see your role? I see myself as one of the deans of the press corps who is viewing from inside and outside, mostly outside for safety and sanity. But I see my role still as a person who tells those stories that our traditional news media won't. I see myself as a 59-year-old woman in America who has made her mark as the longest-serving Black White House correspondent in the nation's history. And there's still more to come. April Ryan, thank you so much for this book and this conversation. I hope you enjoyed the book. April Ryan's new book is Notes on a Black Lash, When a Black Woman Goes Viral. Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new CBS series. Cooper Tino, this is Fresh Air. Controversies about Silicon Valley tech companies and the growth, development, and possible dangers of artificial intelligence are all over the news. Now, thanks to a new CBS series from the makers of The Good Wife, it's the subject of a new television drama as well. Our TV critic David Bianculli has this review. Robert and Michelle King are among the finest TV producers working today. And they still work, for the most part. On broadcast TV. The writer-producers, with Robert as occasional director, broke out with The Good Wife on CBS. Since then, they've created two spin-offs of that series. Elsbeth, which still is on CBS, and The Good Fight, as well as Evil, a personal favorite. And now, also on CBS, they have Cooper Tino, starring one of the leads of Evil, Mike Coulter. It's a drama series about a small legal firm in Silicon Valley. Launched specifically to do battle with the billionaire tech company behemoths operating there. It's funny, it's clever, it's amazingly current. And from the moment it arrives, it establishes itself as the best drama series on broadcast TV. But in terms of praise, that's way too limiting. I've seen all ten of this season's episodes, and Cooper Tino bursts out of the gate as one of the best shows on TV right now, anywhere. Mike Coulter plays Michael Jackson. Michael Price, a staff lawyer retained by, but suddenly unfairly dismissed from, S-Talk, a fictional business described as one of the leading tech companies in Silicon Valley. He thinks he's being squeezed out on false grounds to deny him his equity share in the business, and runs to his own lawyer, played by Steven Pasquale, with intentions to sue. His attorney, though, has other ideas. Can I give you some advice, Michael? Let it go. You are in demand right now. You've developed S-Talk into a Series A gold mine. You can get any job you want. Or I can sue. This is Silicon Valley. It's David and Goliath. And the Goliaths protect each other here. Apple, Google, Facebook, OpenAI, they've got a combined value of $23 trillion. If you sue, you'll never work around here. You'll have to go back to your dad's firm. Hey, don't go there. Okay. Here's the thing. My firm, this firm, won't sue. Okay. I guess I need another lawyer. No, no lawyer will take it, Michael. Call them. Lawyers don't make money here from suing people. They make money by getting a piece of a startup. You're in the gold rush. Don't sue the gold mine. At the same time, S-Talk is firing another employee, Olivia Seifer, played by Rachel Keller, for other equally unfair reasons. She rebuffed the sexual advances of one of the company's founders, and learned, after being dismissed, that the firm had used not only her recorded voice, but her background, history, and personality traits, to launch a new AI entity. When she sees a video with her former boss, played by Will Brill, introducing the new startup, she recognizes herself as the obvious prototype. Let me introduce Daisy, the smartest and friendliest gen AI model ever. Unlike other LLMs, she has, an actual personality, she's authentic, she's a revolutionary app. Hey, hey, what did I tell you? Don't oversell me. Okay, Daisy, how would you sell yourself? How? Let's see. I'm a normal person, a friend, a buddy, and. If you turn off my parental controls, I can be a lot more. I can be anything you want me to be, sir. You don't have to call me sir. Sorry, a habit from my parents. These two disgruntled ex-employees can't find anyone to fight for them, so they decide to join forces, launch a new law firm, and fight for themselves. Their very small startup team also includes one other fired S-Talk worker, Christy Palladino, played by Ella Stiller, who becomes the law firm's receptionist and lead investigator, and a wealthy investor who happens to be the ex-wife of the S-Talk chief executive. She's played by Busy Phillips and rounds out a powerfully entertaining ensemble. For Phillips, it's her best role and performance since her early contributions to Freaks and Geeks. For Ella Stiller. Daughter of Ben Stiller and Christine Taylor, it's her juiciest role yet. For Rachel Keller, who was so captivating in Legion, and Mike Coulter, who was so great in Evil, these are new career highs as well. And the supporting cast, as in all Robert and Michelle King shows, only adds to the riches. Renee Elise Goldsberry, who played Angelica Schuyler in Hamilton, plays one of the new firm's major in-court adversaries. Also in court? A rotating series of judges, each with his or her own amusing quirks and personalities. And they're played, over the course of the series, by the likes of Peter Riegert, Danny Burstein, Jackie Earl Haley, and Jackie Hoffman. And behind the scenes on Cupertino, the art direction is dazzling, David Buckley's music is playfully perfect, and the writing by the Kings and their staff, and the direction by Robert King and others, constantly amaze and surprise. And make you think. Here's Rob McClure as Bo, an inside-the-tech-company whistleblower, who contacts Michael and his new firm on Zoom, shielding his full identity because he doesn't know yet whether to trust them. You paid us $100,000. That's a lot of trust. Why don't you come in for a face-to-face? I'd rather not. Why not? You're being surveilled. How do you know that? I know these companies. In fact. I don't even think of them as companies. They're countries. If you had $3.8 trillion in valuation, how much would you spend on security and surveillance? One percent? A quarter of a percent? Even if you were to spend only one hundredth of one percent on security, that still would be $1 billion for surveillance. So you are being surveilled. Watch Cupertino, which runs Thursdays on CBS and is streaming on Paramount+. It seems ripped from the headlines, but not at all a rip-off of another TV series. Cupertino, in every respect, is a true original. David Bianculli is Fresh Air's TV critic. He reviewed the new series Cupertino. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with comedian Murray Hill about his role in Somebody Somewhere, building his community, and how anti-trans rhetoric and policy has affected him, or with Michael Douglas about two of. One of his best-known movies, Wall Street and Fatal Attraction, coming out in the same year, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of Fresh Air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is Fresh Air. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations on what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org slash freshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger. Our technical director, and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Matten, Monique Nazareth, Susan Ngakundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez-Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Moseley.