Vet It Out Podcast Episode 10 with Dr. Leah & Jana Wu on Mental Health, Addiction Veterinary Crisis

Hey everyone, Dr. Leah here with another episode of Vet It Out. I know you all are waking up every day looking at social media and scrolling through your phones and realizing you've got a whole new fresh hell and we're all kind of struggling with mental health. So today, we have Janna Wu who is a licensed clinical social worker who is the director of clinical integration at Mountain Side Treatment Center. And she was kind enough to have me on her podcast, Sover Spill, where we talked about the mental health crisis and veterinary medicine and I think we just had too much else to talk about. So thank you for joining me today. Yeah, thank you for having me over. It's beautiful to be here on a Sunday. We had you on the Sover Spill and there was so much that I learned and I feel like since then too, it's been so nice to reconnect with you because since talking to you, it's like I feel like I'm seeing different elements of some of the things we talked about, different elements of where people are struggling, particularly with some of the online bullying that we talked about. We didn't get into that, but it's really nice not to be scrolling and to be sitting here in real life with you, like drinking cup of tea, here with Callie the Dog, and yeah, I'm person. It's so important. Yes. Well, welcome to our studio, which this is a rental property that I have because I lost my house in a divorce and I just trying to find a place to live with all my critters. And this unfinished basement, I was like, we're going to Wayne's world style this. We were going to do the best that we can. Good, though. It's so good. Yeah, and that's from our generation, Wayne's world. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I thought it'd be great to talk about a little bit, first of all, how we know each other. We are blessed to be from a really small town, close knit community called the Shfield Connecticut. And we grew up our siblings, so you're one of four. I'm the oldest of four and then we have foster siblings too. So I graduated in '96. So yeah, let's see how Connecticut. It's been like a population of 8,000 approximately for, yeah, like for like over 40, 50 years, you know. So it is a small community. When did you graduate? I graduated in 2000. Oh, okay. So I-- And I'm the youngest of four. Yeah. So all of our siblings, we all grew up together. So I know your older siblings. And I know your younger ones. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's a special community. And I feel like we're talking before with Litchfield. It feels like everyone is like one degree of separation max because it is so small and no matter where you move. I know you went to school at West, you went Colorado. I was out in Colorado for a few years, but it's like if you're from Litchfield, it's like, it's like you're an alum of like the town, you know, where you're always connected in some way. And why, I think this is super important that we are reconnecting because we are both healthcare professionals. And when you are putting yourself out there to the world, I mean, we're opening ourselves up to a lot of cyber bullying, attacks, and scrutiny. And I feel a sense of confidence subjecting myself to that because we did grow up in a community where people do know us and the type of people we are and where our hearts are, our level of commitment to our professions. And so we've got kind of like a fan club and some backing, you know, so if somebody does come at us and question our integrity and what we're trying to accomplish, then being from a small community, you do feel that support. Absolutely. And I think we still support each other in so many different ways. It's okay to mention like the truth and healing. Yes. Absolutely. We had an incredible event on November 1st in Lichfield called the, you know, for Truth and Healing. Yes. And regards to a coach that had sexually abused boys for decades. One of my coaches. One of your coaches. Yeah. Yeah. I ran, did you swim? I ran, I swam. Yeah. And it was pretty horrific. And what's just so strange still is that there was so much knowledge in the town. Like, so the blinders were on so high and like, just like this blind awareness is really weird. Like being aware but not wanting to see so desperately. And one of the positives I think right now is that people want to see. They want to see the ugly, not just the good. People want the truth. They want the truth. Exactly. And that's what we're trying to accomplish with both of our professions, with this podcast, with yours. Yeah. I don't understand like the facade, the mask that people wear. And I remember, I was in fourth grade when I started training with that coach and you know, we, he never, there's no history of him assaulting any young girls. It was, it was specifically boys. And I remember when everything went down and there was reports, these allegations that he might have been inappropriate with other boys, I looked to the adults in my community for the, for the, the answer and how they were responding and how they were treating it. And there were adults who were sweeping it under the rug and acting like it didn't happen. And he was still sitting in town at our, at his favorite bar. Yep. Celebrated. Yeah. And so I, I assumed because the adults and take the lead that he was innocent. And we subjected more children to his, to this predator. And I can't tell you enough like I am, I'm so dedicated to seeking the truth and, and being honest and exposing that because I think part of why we have this mental health crisis in this country is we're not being equipped for reality. Absolutely. And then it shocks you. It shocks you. And I think too, it takes a lot of vulnerability and so much bravery like I'm so proud of the men that spoke up, the, you know, the men that were abused and the men that were, you know, were witnessed it and came back to the trail. Some of them that hadn't been there in decades and came back, was around the town green and set it out loud and, so yeah, and seeing now the town like since that happened. So I did speak there to, I like talked a little bit to the parents, you know, in the community because I think there's, there was so much shame and blame, you know, of like, you know, in the whole situation, but we were really trained too. Like you said, not to question, not to see the truth, we look to, we look to the leaders in the adults because we are children. So those guys, they're, they're incredible. And I think again, going back to the positive, just seeing the community support, the people that I've rallied behind them and supported them and not without like, we started talking about later, not without some online backlash, you know, unfortunately, but like they didn't have to come back. They didn't have to tell you anything out loud. It's brave what they've done and transparency is so important, especially living in this world that we have access to information at our fingertips 24/7. Our brains are just constantly being flooded. And I don't think we as humans were designed to be this overstimulated and this overwhelmed constantly. Absolutely not, especially not when we first wake up and when we go to bed. Yeah. Yeah. And then what, what's true? Yeah. What's reality? What's being inflated? What's, you know, who's who's faken it while they're really struggling? And how that affects us when we're seeing these images of, oh, like our perfect little picturesque town and horrific things happen to innocent children there. You know, yeah, again, I'm grateful that we have this small town connection and support from our community, but it is, well, that's what again, like that support, the people that did come out, the people that chose to reach out, the people that continue to talk about it. And I mean, I think it extends more to like, I've been so grateful you've been so supportive to me through my brother's cancer. And it's like, that's the type of stuff that I don't know if it would happen in bigger communities, but it's like, we don't even have to almost stay so close to someone to really care about them. Yes. And that's how I feel too with, you know, other people in the town, just like this closeness of knowing we grew up together. And so anyways, I think our town is very special. It is very picturesque. You know, like for those of you that don't know Lichfield, it has, this is arguable. But I believe it is the first law school in America tapping for you. Yes. And it's really beautiful. And you can do free tours there. We have Lichfield Historical Society. We have the Lichfield Memorial. Yes. Yes. We're going to be filming with white memorial because they're trying to raise some money for their bird aviary. I hope they can raise some money. I'm nice to take my kids. We're going to be hitting y'all up for money, by the way. Support the birds. But it's a really special, special place. And so many new people are there now too, despite the population not really growing. And I think it's cool. At least when I go back, I feel like an integration. Yeah. Like I've made friends with people that have moved there since I've left in the past like whatever, 30, 30 years, you know, and it still has like that small town feel. And with that small town feel, we both decided to go into healthcare, which is really cool. A little different tracks of me being a veterinarian, but what means you want to do social work and therapy? Yeah. I'm slim. I didn't expect that I would. You know, when I look back, I think of like doing your high. I think of like, I don't know if you're Mr. Conklin. Yes. I remember. And he was also our tennis coach. He was a safe guy. But I, I mean, I felt like safe. Like he didn't feel like, you know, I know it was any weird way. But I remember telling him like, I'm being young and wanting to be like Oprah. That's what I wanted to be. It's Ali Jesse Raphael. Like that's, that's what I wanted. So social work came later on life. I went to college, I went to Emerson for communications, actually, and then transferred to UMass, moved to the city. And I started working at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. And I worked on the 18th floor and then neurosurgery floor. And it was for primary brain tumors. And it was so, so heavy because like incredibly heavy work. But I actually remember so many of the patients that came because I was sort of like a patient liaison where you help their family schedule things to do during their treatments. And I loved the connection with the families. That's right. I remember just like sitting, I can literally, this is like to, this is pre-9/11. I can remember like sitting with people and remember their faces. And like trying to find a movie or probably play, well, like their husband's dying. And it was like this very intense time to just sit with someone though. And you became friendly. I mean, a lot of people flew there and they'd be there for months. developed like this relationship. So I knew I liked it, but the work was really heavy for me. I burned out. Yeah, yeah. And so then I got this great job. I remember I was at a party in Brooklyn. This one was like being a personal assistant. And I went and I interviewed and I got this great job being an Upper East Side personal assistant. And I did that for almost a decade. And I loved my clients. It's a really interesting situation when you're in that kind of job. Like it taught me a lot about like class. I think, you know, we grew up in a pretty affluent community. I think undoubtedly Litchfield. Yeah, we were pretty sheltered from the realities of other people's financial or socioeconomic status. Yeah, it's a particular place in Connecticut in general. You know, so like a lot of the world isn't even like just like Connecticut in general, though there are parts of, you know, extreme poverty in Connecticut too. But anyways, I was with like a different level of wealth. And I was told, but never felt like it was a degraded position at all. I felt very supported and like cared for for lack of better work for these families. And I loved the families like you. I grew up in a really big family. And I love the kids of the people I worked for. I worked for one of them. I worked for the grandfather. One of the families I worked for. They had four kids and kids are kids. Regardless of how much money you have, if you're right about part of a new like being with a bunch of teenagers and like helping their mom. And I had this unique role of helping sort of the head of the household, the woman of the household. And again, what I came back to that I loved it was a very intimate relationship. I mean, really intimate part not to be when you are that in twine with somebody's lives, especially when you're going through really heavy emotional or traumatic experiences together. Yeah, and just life. I mean, I learned a lot about marriage, a lot about parenting about like the reality of having this beautiful, perfect exterior and that like life is life, you know, and things are going to come up. Yeah, you know, so anyways, I during that time decided I wanted to do something different. And I didn't know what to do. And I had loved UMass and loved Northampton. And one of my girlfriends was like, apply to Smith School for social work. And I was like, okay. And I just did it. And actually in between that too, I forgot while I was applying, I moved back to the chill. And I worked at a residential for a dueticated youth touchdone, which was so interesting in the woods. And it was mostly inner city girls that had had some legal consequences and kind of like a group of Connecticut junior republics right down the road. Yeah. And so I loved these girls. And we did a lot of writing. We did creative writing with Stillman Sharon Shard. And went to Hotchkiss and did this writings change with the girls and did poetry readings with them. And that was amazing. Like, well, I was getting into school. And then I got into school. And like, I never get bored of people. I'll never be bored of like talking to people. I think people are the most interesting thing for me. Like, people's stories. So that's where we might differ. I know. I'm like, oh, I'm like, oh, I'm like, people, I'm like getting anxiety thinking about them. And the reason being is I'm raging and empath. And so being around people, I tend to absorb their energy, whether I like it or not. And like, I can walk into a room. And if everybody's laughing and having a good time, like, okay. But if I go to a room and like, somebody's crying or somebody gets ahold of me and starts telling me about their dog, I'm just like, I just need to go home. But the people I do connect with are people who are animal lovers. Um, I, you know, it kind of blows my mind that there's folks in this world who don't like animals. Uh, which very important is different than somebody who doesn't have pets. Cause I know some people who love animals so much that they choose not to have a pet because they're responsible. And they know that their lifestyle isn't compatible with proper pet care. They're traveling, they're too busy, gone for long hours. I respect those people. Um, but this is interesting because there is a lot of overlap and some intersections, um, with what's happening with us professionally. So being a veterinarian, we are absolutely struggling with a mental health crisis. We have one of the highest suicide rates, um, higher for women than it is for men. I think it's 3.5 or 3.7%. Yeah, it was like two to 3.5 times more likely to die by completed to an average population of female veterinarians. I mean, that's extent. And then in general to it, so I think it's 3.4% of veterans veterinarians, excuse me, die by suicide. And that, that's a huge, it's a staggering statistic. And you think about how few of us there are, um, and then kind of going more into your wheelhouse, we also have one of the higher substance abuse, um, yeah, absolutely. Um, and then divorces. Um, you know, I mean, it's, when you are dealing with this constant career pressure, um, you know, especially if, you know, I don't know if this happens to you. Um, if you are out in public and people are stopping you or people are asking you questions, people are kind of, you know, working, we're looking to kind of pick your brain for free. Oh my gosh. I think it happens with any career though. I'm like, that, you know, I will say that happens because you know, I want to make up school. And it always correct me that people, a lot of the girls in my school were saying that two, I shouldn't say girls, young women in my school were saying that two, that all the sudden when they went to school, everyone was asking me to do their makeup for free. And it's, it's very laborious to make up. Yes. Yes. I like this isn't something two hours of your time for free. I'm like, ladies, you need to charge. You are worth your time as a worth it. You just need your school. But so I think that does happen, um, where people, you know, I don't mind, you know, people do reach out a lot like my husband's drinking too much or, hey, I think I may need detox. I actually love those calls because I think there still is so much stigma with substance use disorder. If someone is willing, like, and they want to open up and they know that I'm a safe place and I'm not going to tell anyone, I am so grateful. Um, that they, they do. And they ask for help. And they're looking for you to, to assist them with that. And like that's, that's the one thing. I was like, if people are just like looking for free advice rather than asking for help and are willing to say, all right, there is a big difference. There is a big difference. A huge difference in asking for like labor because they're not asking me to be their therapist either. It's like, I don't know what to do. Exactly. That is so different than like, yeah, providing free services like at a party or the grocery store. Exactly. Yeah. It's, they're just being lazy and looking for a cheap alternative, um, you know, our option. So I mean, that, that can, that can be a little bit overwhelming. But um, the issue with substance abuse and veterinary medicine and just kind of like what you're dealing with. So we have a mental health crisis. And I think a big cause of the mental health crisis in veterinary medicine is that everybody else is having a mental health crisis. Um, and we have seen this increased emotional dependency on our pets. Um, as the world is really upsetting and scary. Um, I know for me, I, I'm very single and I'm lucky. I've got some good friends and I'm, um, my family gets along, but um, my animals are my sanctuary. They are my solace. They are my escape from all the chaos in the world. They're always happy to see me. They always know how to read the room when to be silly, when to be cuddly, when to be quiet, when to be loud. Um, and so losing an animal, even though you know what you're getting into when you take them into your heart and home, they have a much shorter lifespan than we do. But I'm finding that people aren't handling it well now. When they're pet is sick. Yeah. It's very expensive. And then they die. And we have this innate problem with humans where we feel the need to place blame when something goes wrong. And so it's all interconnected. Oh, I know. It's being you feel like I was thinking too, just like back to my brother, like one of my fears when he was in treatment was I was like, God, please don't let us anything happen to his cat. You know, he has a cat. Oh my God. He has like this beautiful mouth. She's not peppy. She's like a stereotypical siamese. Oh, she's like very siamese. Like, like, I think she looks amazing. Not amazing. She's just thin. She's thin. She's lying. She's lying. My cat is hotter. You know, yeah. Yeah. And but I was like that feeling too. I just kept on praying. Like, please just like not now because she's ancient. Yeah. Don't, you know, like, you got to, you got to be here. Hang on. We can't do with this right now. And so again, like somebody who is does counseling for a living and you are identifying in your own family, like the human animal bond and how important it is. That's what really keeps people out of treatment often. Yeah. They don't want to go to detox or residential because they don't have someone that can take care of their pet. Yes. Especially dogs, you know, it's, it's really is an issue. And there are a few national organizations that do provide like fostering not enough, but not enough because there's so many more people need detox or residential stay than there are, like, available resources for people. And, you know, one day I used to love, like, at Mountside, I don't know. I'm the owner's to have a dog buzz that we all love. Buzz was everywhere. Buzz was just buzzing around. They're like the whole name. Yeah. He was, he was, I so I think about that a lot. Like, how much, like, people would just love when they saw him, you know, just like the emotions that have been elicit from them, you know, no matter what's going on in your day, it's kind of hard to be upset when a dog is wiggling and wagging its tail and heading over to give you some attention. Like, it just, it's one of those things that reminds you like to just stop and appreciate these little moments and like animals are just so innocent and so happy and usually. And wanting your attention. Exactly. That's all they want from you. It's your company. Yeah, just to connect. I mean, obviously not every animal. But the ones that I wanted are real social. Yeah. Yeah. But man, it makes you feel special when you have an animal that it's a little bit more standoffish. And they're like, yeah, okay, I'll allow you to pet me. I will come hang out with you for a little while. That's how our child look at was so funny that everyone would always be like, we didn't even know you had a cat. And then like, feel like grow up with me. You're like, of course, Marci Woo. She was like, oh my god, she was over 19. I was actually. She was like, she was, she was just from Circle Drive if you're from Lichfield, Vanta, she's from Circle Drive. - She's in Street Cred. - Yeah, she was, it was a really sad story. Like she was being abused by these little kids and, oh yeah, that correlation between animal abuse and then what happens with, as a human ages, if they're abusing animals, there's an increased likelihood that they're gonna abuse a human. - Yeah, but my amazing are Nanny Alice, who we love, she lived on Circle Drive and she adopted Marshmallow and then we have Marshmallow forever. - Oh yeah, I love that. But yes, you were right. So I worked with an amazing woman who had been through treatment and I was there because I'm a hospice veterinarian to euthanize her cat. And just like when you were working with the people who had brain tumors, like it's impossible to not form an emotional connection with somebody when you're going through this really heavy, really dark, traumatic experience. And so I usually take my time. I don't like to be rushed when I go and help a family with end of life. And I was sitting on the floor with this woman over where she has her cat was Jerry Atric as well, was about 17. And she was like, "I'm just feeling so guilty." And I was like, "Why do you feel guilty?" And she said, "Well, I was an addict and a heavy drinker for years." And she was like, "My life was gonna be over and my mom ended up taking my cat so I can go to rehab." And she was like, "And it took me a few attempts." And she was like, "I didn't have my cat for a couple of years." And she was like, "But I did get out." And I had her. And I got to be with her at the end of her life. And she was like, "But I'm feel guilty for missing everything." And I was like, "I commend you for doing what you had to do to get well because your cat might not have ever seen you again if you didn't stop and get treatment." And I was so grateful that her mother provided that home. So she wasn't gonna have to take. Because she did say she was like, "I had this cat." And you know, a series of abusive boyfriends, and you really know what to do. And I don't want to leave the cat. And so because she had that opportunity for her mother to keep her, she got well. - And I think I just literally heard this on a addiction recovery podcast yesterday, but that people in a recovery are better parents and animal providers like what you get sober than what you're actively using. Like you're just a better owner, a better parent when you get sober. - Yeah, being a doctor, you know, it's so important to be solution oriented, trying to get to the root of the problem and so we can actually fix it. And so people have asked me why I think we have a mental health crisis in veterinary medicine. What the most important cause that I think we actually can do something about especially is bullying. So a lot of people don't understand the level of dedication and how brutal it is going to veterinary school. I mean, it is, it is, it's difficult to get in. You're competing with the cream of the crop, brilliant people, work really hard. It's very labor intensive, a lot of upper division science classes, people are going through this, getting out to practice and then face in the reality that your entire profession can get blown up in your face. I think you've worked for over one bad review, one board complaint and these potential witch hunts that happen as a result. Oh, I know too, the board complaints can induce a lot of shame. I mean, it's there for, of course, like the checks and balances to have protections. But I know what was we talked about people being so such deep empaths and making a mistake and a lot of people being perfectionist, like having that type of something on their history or their record can be so debilitated for some people that I think it can, that in and of itself and then bullying, it's like two to three can cause like two to three times more rates of like PTSD, depression, anxiety and suicidality definitely goes up with profound bullying. So it definitely has the weight and the consequences. Absolutely. And I mean, kind of like this perfectionist, you don't, we take a vow to do no harm. And so when I was going through veterinary school, I made the mistake of tracking large animal, which meant that I didn't get as much exposure to small animal surgery. And my friend who's the state fish vet in Colorado actually did more space and neuters in veterinary school than I did. So when I went out to start practicing, I had a really profound fear of making a mistake because I was inexperienced. I was under trained. I hadn't put scalpel to tissue enough. And so whenever I did do any sort of surgeries, especially that were more invasive, I was going into an abdominal cavity versus like cutting a tumor off a side. I spent my entire evening just wide awake and bed stressing out, did I tie everything off OK? Like, is this animal potentially bleeding out? And I felt like I was playing God by doing surgery, which I just kind of ironic, because I'm a hospice veterinarian. And a lot of people think ending a life is more along the lines of playing God. But I'm not doing anything that could negatively impact the outcome that I'm trying to achieve when I'm doing euthanasia usually, you know, as long as my drug protocols go smoothly. But if my inexperienced hurt a patient, I wouldn't have survived it. And that's why we're dealing with this. So then to go through that. And then when you're trying your best to do the right thing, and then the family is like, goes online and just eviscerates you. And then you get the call from your medical malpractice board saying that somebody filed a former complaint. And the tailspin that that can cause somebody who's so devoted to making a positive difference in the lives of animals is devastating. - Well, and it's also part of, you know, I think our generation and our generations now of veterinarians, older generations, maybe they have an angry patient and angry client that come knock on the door, scream at them, yell at them. But now a bad review can be posted on other sites. It can actually have global implications. You could have people from very far away, not anywhere near your computer. - No clue about what happened. - No one you've ever treated, never treated any other animals blasting you because they read something online and they don't have the full picture. And some of it, I assume, too, would be under privacy. Like you can't probably describe what was going on in the home or what, you know, other factors that may be led to certain situations. I also think it's important what you said about putting scalpel to skin and how, as a surgeon, you don't really get, like, it's a different kind of clinical practice and training to go in and be live. It takes experience to build experience. - Correct. - You were feeling so much pressure, always that it inhibited you from actually having those experiences. How could you ever progress in it because you cared so deeply? - Yeah, I was so worried about making a mistake. And that worry was coming from a place of me wanting to always do right by the patient. And if that meant giving it to a colleague who had a lot more surgical experience, my pride would never interfere with that whatsoever. That was where my fear was coming from. And then that was compounded by the fact that my senior year at veterinary school, we kind of like a legal consultation class. And this lawyer came in and said, well, kids, it's not a matter of if you're gonna get reported to your boards, it's when. And at that time, the largest punitive damage against a veterinarian had been won and it was in excess of like $30,000 for a cat. So it wasn't just what you would normally, you know, if there was an egregious act of negligence, like true male practice, then because pets are usually considered possessions, they're becoming, there are areas that are labeling us as their guardians and therefore, they're sentient beings, which is going to cause a huge up people, which I'm curious to see how it's not gonna pan out. But, you know, like, you're trying to do right by this animal and failing them and something happens. Like, I have veterinarians who are very, very good colleagues. They're incredible surgeons and when they make a mistake, like just seeing the aftermath of what it does and how we need this community support. And now, people can experience something negative with their veterinarian or anybody, really. And then there's no calm period to think about it, to gather your thoughts, like what really did happen before you would go and confront something? Like I said, like back in the day, veterinarians, like someone had to get on your car and drive the clinic, pound on the door, find the vet. - If they're open, you couldn't yell at them, you know? And now it's like, online's open, all that there's no boundaries. - The actions are immortalized on the internet. - Yeah, and there's not a conversation. - And you can't take them back. - Yeah, and it's very difficult. And I would actually argue against getting into like an internet debate with anyone, you know? It's never, you're never gonna win. - Heard mentality, I mean. So in addition to the medical malpractice board complaints, which I've had colleagues who, even though they were very confident, their record keeping was good, they were doing the right thing. A client was unhappy and was able to start the process of a board complaint, which is usually drawn out over long periods of time. So you're just an absolute bucket of disaster, like trying to deal with this, like what's gonna happen to my license, what's gonna happen to my whole career? And I had a colleague who, I've actually never met her, but I ended up taking her job at a clinic in town. And everybody's like, oh, you remind me a lot of her. She was amazing, we miss her. And I found out what happened. There was a dog that had a mask that she removed because it was a possibility that it was cancer. And then it came back non-cancerous, but it was like an infected bug bite. But then the owner didn't follow the protocol of wearing the cone of shame. And the dog got to the incision. It was a lot of like damage and repeat surgeries. And she ended up suing the doctor because she said the surgery shouldn't have been done in the first place, because it wasn't cancer. But in order to find out if it was or was not cancer, had to be cut off and submitted. And that process of getting reported at the boards, which she did win the complaint the veterinarian She is never practiced again and she was young She was young and brilliant and likable and had excellent client communication skills And because that owner couldn't accept her responsibility for her part and how everything played out and understand that The testing that was done was inconclusive as to whether or not her dog had cancer and they had a very educated discussion about why we need to do the surgery It didn't matter. She wanted that vet to die Like how unreasonable is that like the rage these unreasonable Responses and it's because of how much we love animals and this emotional Weight that we place on them to help us feel good about ourselves and deal with our traumas. I mean, it's it's wild Yeah, they're it I see you're saying like a lot of dependency like if I have they're not okay. I'm not gonna be okay I'm not gonna be okay This was this incredible therapist. I work with for a long time mountains I bruised Decker and you would always say how empty of me to be so full of you and we were talking often about like someone that Loves someone that's struggling with addiction that couldn't stop obsessing over their addiction But I see that a lot with social media. We know social media influencers their self-esteem Like the statistics are really I think actually lower so these like 65% of them feel that like their self-esteem is tied to their worth And they they notice it go down when their views go down. I would say it's probably more. Yeah But it's also that like over I think it's like 62% like significant burnout regularly They are burnt out because it's also not natural to be on so much Yeah, to be on to be public-facing to have that many people looking at you I do think they're almost like taking you but there's like an energy to it and you know previous generations Not that many people saw you. Yes, and now there's again like a global sphere No boundaries and how much you can be absorbed how much people get reflect on you And I think that that energy does exist, you know, so I think There's a lot there. I think we've taught you know We're seeing a lot the influencers like their name have so much sway on public opinion and I think that things can change I actually am always pleased when we see someone that acknowledges like I've changed my mind I've done more research. I appreciate that. This causes harm or like I want to take I want to go back to something I said before and acknowledge I've changed and I hope that we can as a society have grace for when people do get more Information and make informed decision. I appreciate that and I think they're a really great point about that is we are Facing this information and we don't know how to suss out what which ones are valid This is a reputable source. It says somebody I should be listening to they are a professional. They've trained their they have credentials versus somebody who is just Like's attention really and they're trying to make a career out of being online and You know, especially in the health the health natural health world and how that is negatively impacting veterinary care and human health care because people are like what I saw online Insert and it's like who said it? Well, you've spent so much time unpacking it too Yeah, it's like the time that could be better spent probably like on the animal in front of you or say else It's like unpacking. Oh, it's a distraction. Yeah, I had animals that You know, I would say okay, they're they have arthritis. They should be on a good joint supplement Here's a veterinary recommended one and then I would get a 20 page email of like I found all these other supplements that this my My raky practitioner recommended and she thinks that the one you recommended is bad for dogs And I just really want to be a little bit more natural about what do you think about all these brands? So they're she's asking me to go and Research for her yeah what she looked up as complete garbage. What might be dangerous? What might have like other compounds in the substance that are herbicides pesticides? Yeah, if it there's no government regulation of neutral And it's like it's like the amount of time I just wasted because you saw a pretty girl make a stupid video about why This joint supplements bad like Meanwhile, there's hard scientific research and data behind the product that I recommend it not because I'm getting a kickback Well, that is so important because I often get like oh you work for big pharma I absolutely don't work for big pharma. I mean you don't sell anything. Yeah, exactly. I don't have an I don't have a medical degree I don't work for a pharmaceutical company. I do work in treatment. I am a therapist. Yes, and it's so interesting like that I think people want to argue immediately to that like oh you work for some big pharma someone owns you Like like I'm a politician that's being sponsored and so that was actually what gave me this position where I felt I could do this Podcast because I am just a hospice veterinarian. I do not do any general practice anymore I've never owned a practice where I personally sold product. I've been an associate at one So I cannot get accused of being in bed with big kibble or big pharma and therefore I'm hoping and I've got this base I've been out there pound of the pavement working really hard in this community and I have my Mutation and my reputation is honesty and integrity and that it's always do no harm first and so because of that I'm hoping that when people are Hearing all these like oh well this might be bad or this might be good that this is going to be a resource for Information stuff from somebody that you trust and that you know is not trying to sell you something else So that's the biggest thing about social media influencers if somebody is telling you don't do this don't use this product Don't believe big pharma or your vet or your doctor who's trying to get you to use this but buy this supplement I this company does this amazing all natural organic product that was you know found in the Amazon and like and That should be a red flag for everybody when you are hearing something online And that person is telling you don't like or follow or buy any of this stuff by mine Yeah, that is the ultimate red flag of a snake real salesman that is but also like knowing what source you're going to for what? Yes, what in this situation because we can't be all things to all people yes So the greatest example in veterinary medicine of this happening are breeders So dog purebred dog breeders or people who are breeding crossbreeds that they want to claim our designer and purebred It's a mutt people you just paid 10 grand for a mutt so Breeders now especially ones that are in the show world and trying to make a living off of it have these ridiculous contracts that they're making people sign Like like basically they're covering their butt if the pet has some genetic abnormality or you know They come with worms because they're dirty nasty kennel or you name it and then they're also making recommendations now about what diet to feed the animal About what vaccines they should be getting and what the vaccine schedule should look like Timing for spay and neuter. I had a client who had a beautiful golden retriever and I met them because I had to very dramatically euthanize their last golden retriever and Their breeder she would come in and then I would say I recommend x, y, and z and then she would stand there and be like No, because my breeder said x, y, and z and I was like are you gonna take the opinion of somebody who just spent a decade going to school? So if we can take care of your dog or somebody who literally makes a living off of dog sex and production of puppies Like who is the expert here? Who do you want to trust? But the breeder was just in her pocket. She had this ridiculous contract And guess what like the the main thing was a flea and tick products and that dog had One of the highest lime titers I've ever seen Because the breeder dissuaded them from using a reputable product And so this is it's very very frustrating and But you know when it comes to trying to make sure that we're finding the best in the bloodlines like sure Like I'll go to a breeder and be like yeah, this is if a client really wants a good quality purebred animal I'll go find the breeders that are doing their hip clearances checking their eyes like a kc Doesn't mean anything to me the American kennel club does not care about how an animal is made Under what environmental circumstances all they care is that the dam and the sire that like they all have a kc bloodlines and so People love to tell me like well, this is a good dog because it came from an a kc sort of like breeder and I'm like No, I've euthanized a kc animals at very young ages due to things that were in the bloodline You know, it's it's one of those things where Stay in your lane is perfect. I appreciate that. Oh So let's talk about how politics is interfering with healthcare in general human and animal Um, I again talk about staying your lane. Mm-hmm. We there's a lot of discussion about things like vaccines um Right now one of the most frustrating ones that we're dealing with is Lyme disease. Mm-hmm And they're a vaccine for Lyme disease. So there's one that's like Pfizer is trying to produce and there's been a lot of online discussion and a lot of conspiracy theories Um coming off of that um people thinking that Lyme which I actually did a little talk about how we found it in Ossee the iceman when the permafrost started to recede He had burrelia bacteria which the spire keep bacteria that's Lyme in his system Um, but then you know, we're having a very crazy tic season Um, there was a study done that found over 50% of adult tics were carrying Lyme and again We're talking about Lyme. There's a lot of disgusting really awful diseases that tics carry Um, but people were more focused on like oh of course There's a lot of tics and that everybody has Lyme because Pfizer is producing a vaccine meaning that people truly do believe that Pfizer is Breeding tics. Oh God that are infected with Lyme and dispersing them out into the environment rather than Accepting that the far more likely truth, which is, we have a climate change problem. Absolutely, and deforestation, and less, yeah, there's so many reasons we're integrating with animals. Exactly. Exactly. You know, those are very, I've been pulling ticks off of me and my animals my entire life. Have we seen an increase in the volume? I know. Yes. I know. Have we seen things like Lyme disease spread across the country? Have we seen that things work? I mean, I have sprayed my clothes with hermethan for years. We do our own like tick tubes, and it makes a significant difference because I still want to be able to go outside. I want to be able to go camping. I want to enjoy things. But I have to use some precautionary things such as permethrum, which people have mixed feelings about. Correct. But that has prevented, at least my family, from knock on wood getting ticker illness. Yeah. When we live in a very infested area where we have seen the rates go up and up and up as per the state, you know, a rate of Lyme disease. Yeah. You bring up a great example. Any time that we make a medical decision for ourselves or our animals, it's a weighing of risks and benefits. Yeah. You know, I don't love permethrum, but I also don't love babesia, or anaplasmosis or oliciosis or Lyme insert all the disgusting things ticks transmit. I also don't like euthanizing dogs that are 4, 5, 6 years old to end stage kidney failure because they have Lyme disease because somebody told them that the flea and tick products that veterinarians are recommending that we're pushing poison. And it's like what we're doing is we're trying to keep an animal safe from a disease that's been around a lot longer than pharmaceutical companies were making bank off of human or veterinary medicine. And we're trying to protect them. And nothing breaks my heart more when somebody who we can't get through to them. And then we see that animal suffering the consequences for not following the vice that we had given. And like that is again, because I said, you let you appreciate when somebody can recognize that they might have been wrong, they've been educated, they've learned. And hindsight is 2020 and nothing is more upsetting to look back and say, you know, my choices hurt my animal or my kid or me. This potentially could have been prevented, but there's no perfect solution. Yes, it might not be a solution I like, but what is the best solution in this situation? Yeah, what are the risks? What are the risks? Yeah. I can choose not to go outside or not let my kids outside, but that's not worth it to me. I could choose never to go camping and Connecticut, but that's not quality of life balance. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a big thing. It's really painful that there's a lack of trust in the medical community and the scientific community right now, more than ever. The only really advanced nation without, without a universal health care and it makes a big difference and people don't have the time or luxury often to go to therapy and get the support. And I always say everyone deserves their one interrupted hour. When you think about the having a whole week, if you could get one hour a week of uninterrupted in therapy or you're just being supportive where someone is holding that mirror up to you or you're getting a private space to say what's going on and unbiased stays again with someone that has experience. That can be profound. It can be profound for marriages. It can be profound for parents and children. If you can't afford therapy, I think there are other options depending on what, like let's say, for example, substances. We know there are mutually groups like NA, OAA, all the different supports that are out there. There are other groups too. There's dermal recovery, which is a more Buddhist-based, there's smart recovery, there's celebrate life. And these are all online. You can find these meetings online and you can find in-person versions typically, except for, you know, very, you know, small, smaller places, but I think there's such an importance now to having a space to be vulnerable and be witnessed by other humans. I think it's often best in real life if we can have that, but the reality is maybe mobility issues or various reasons, money, people can't get out. There are ways to connect online to get that virtual support, which is so important of having this space to get vulnerable, again, and bear witness, not to a chatbot, not to look at AI therapists, but you're a real human to listen to you. So this is another really important point, is the stigma about seeking mental health care. There's still this old, tough guy mentality, and I'm going to admit, one of the most important relationships of my life, I think, was negatively impacted over this person feeling like they were less of a man to go to a counselor, and that was kind of instilled with them and then by their, by their dad, like, guys don't talk about their feelings like this. But we're in a male mental health crisis, like a significant, I think at least women, like, we know we've had mental health care disorders, you know, women come out about my suicide ideation that I struggled with and like all the depression, the anxiety, the sleep is night. I'm very vocal about it because I want people to not feel isolated and alone. People look at me and they're like, you're a doctor, yeah, and you don't have any kids and you're fun and, you know, like, I could be uglier, you know, like, I've got a lot going for me and people want to look at me and assume that my life is like, hashtag blessed and I'm like, I have some struggle bust pretty much every day and I've been loud about it and people have reached out to me. I was responding and said and thanked me for being vulnerable and letting them know that I wasn't okay because there are absolutely people who look at my life and think like, oh, wow, it must be so nice. And I'm like, but I think that's exactly what we can do, like, in the system we currently have, which has a lot of inequity. We know that a lot of stigma and shame around mental health. The more we talk about things like those are the small steps we can do, you know, I think that's something I've been doing for years too is talking about substance use because that's the waters I swim in every day. I'm not scared of it. I love people that struggle. I love what I do so much and that has allowed people to reach out because they know you're safe space. And that these are my people, you know, I want to be with you. I want to sit there and I want to be with you. It's not a field you stay in if you don't love it and I'm sure you're so much of you can't stay in this field if you don't love it. So I think the other important thing is like, if you do have health insurance, freaking use it. You know, hard work hard for health insurance. So if you can use it, you can use it for therapy. You can use your out of network benefits. There are actually a lot of not as right around fore Collins is very saturated with veterinarians. It's, you know, there's a lot of them. But then we have places that have veterinary deserts. There is nobody to help for hours of drives and even I used to go to the vineyard on Martha's vineyard ever since I was a little kid. And that is actually a veterinary desert, literally the presidential playgrounds, so much big money, so much wealth as far as like the properties out there, so the people who live there year round and a vet can't afford to live there full time because they can't afford to buy a house and practice enough. So this is this is something that's very serious. So now people are complaining that private equity like why don't get to see the same vet and now it's all about greed and we have all these like massive bills and some of these companies because of their corporate models, how they're setting their pricing. I have a great example since we grew up in Lichfield. So there is a hospital that I know of that is not in Lichfield, it's in one of the towns around it that have a lot of people on state aid and government assistance. They set the pricing for that hospital based on Lichfield proper. And so a rabies vaccine is like 85 bucks, where in that region it should not be that high because what they just did is now all bunch of people are going to be going to the vaccine clinic and then the pet is not getting a full physical examination, stuff slipping through the cracks, they're just getting a quick, a quick and dirty, poking vaccine and then you head out the door and so now we're missing things and then people are presenting to a veterinary hospital or one of these big expensive emergency clinics in a crisis that's going to be more expensive to handle. So, I mean, grateful that we do have insurance and programs like Husky and Human Medicine, but as you said, a lot of counseling, there's caps on it. And so like, then we have people who are looking for low cost or adjusted fees. >> And it's so much work to be in network, I do understand that and going in network. We are in network and there are a lot, there's really rigorous requirements as far as documentation as you know, to be in network to get reimbursement, reimbursement can take a long time so I understand why private practitioners, it can feel like too much, you can feel like too much of their time that is skewed towards the admin and not enough time with their patients. So a lot of people just, you know, definitely a lot of good, really good therapist go, the private practice room and then don't take any insurance. >> Yeah, yeah. And so that's, it is so tough. So solution oriented, how do we fix this? How do we make this better? And so my opinion as far as what we do with the cost of care and the mental health crisis in vet med is I think, first of all, we just need to keep educating people about what's really going on, where the anger is being directed and how it's either hindering our progress and our ability to help animals or creating more opportunity for these big corporations that now people are starting to realize, weren't so great, aren't so great, although I do have a lot of veterinary colleagues who do work corporate and they're well cared for, it serves their place. There's great companies out there just like there's not so great ones and I will be all for any private equity company who is in vet med, who focuses on patient care and care of their staff. >> Yep. >> And that is like the most important, you know, trickle down for patient care is a well care for staff. And we do something I love where we get a wellness reimbursement so you can get a certain amount of money every month to spend a wellness. So that can be therapy, that can be a massage, that can be gym membership, that can be hair, which I love. And like that is therapy. So it's like, I think it's just important to recognize. Recognizing that like every month take a pause talk about it talk about it with either your staff definitely Yeah, yeah, so I think are we heading towards the direction in veterinary medicine where we're gonna need insurance Yeah, I think we're kind of there and already because of the cost of care and everybody's freaking out about their financial status Insurance premiums for pet for veterinary insurance are already jumping. Oh, yeah, I'm sure because now they've caught on They're like, oh people are gonna need us. And so it's just another opportunity for predatory pricing and more people in between a patient and a doctor making a ton of money and then that burden is put on the pet parent or The mental burden is put on the veterinarian because as I said financial euthanasia There's people who are faced with the either you go and take out another credit card or remorgage your house or You skip a payment on your mortgage to save your animal or you have to humanely Euthanize them because you can't do anything or relinquish them and again when you relinquish an animal I I just went through this I because of that behavioral euthanasia situation I was I spent the last two weeks of my life trying to find a home for a dog that I've never met before Yeah, and it was not easy and I Should be somebody with a lot of sway and a lot of favors that should be coming my way and thankfully they did come through But I was like I just want to go drive off a cliff right now because I'm so stressed out and I don't know what to do And I don't know what the right solution is and I was put in this ethical dilemma where you know If this dog I if I'm like no, I refuse to do a behavioral euthanasia, then what was gonna happen to him? I mean this is every single day My colleagues are faced with something like this and I can't stress enough a lot of people are one bad work experience or complaint or case away from At being a tipping point and they go home and they euthanasia themselves Or they grab a bottle of alcohol or they choose to open up their substance their controlled substance box and use it to escape the pain They're in and it's just it's really scary And this is when we're talking about what to do this is for the veterinary community for the general public everybody should be Encouncing yeah, 100% and then to like you mentioned like hormones are so important 40-year-old woman. Oh my gosh, but like it's so beautiful that there is this like cultural reckoning that like especially for women They've been under researched and underdiagnosed under treated and so we're working on I think we're coming to this place now We're working on recognizing how much that affects our mental health fluctuations and there's a lot you can do of course like on your own We talked about weightlifting in different ways that we can change I mean if like the way I feel I think of like oxytocin and one of the best ways we can raise our oxytocin It's not just through sex and breastfeeding. It's like petting it all Yeah, I like our petting a cat that raises our feel good that raises our sense of security So I sometimes think about that and talk to people Then working with about like manipulating your own system like men like trying to find ways that raise your dopamine without killing you and hurting you Trying to raise ways again to connect with the oxytocin to feel good to feel a sense of security Yeah, honestly sit down and think about what makes you feel good What what helps you get out of bed in the morning and focus on that? Think about it increase your contact time with your friends or your family or nature or your animal may Identify your problem. What can help you feel better and do something be solution-oriented? And again, this is where if you have friends and family colleagues who are struggling and suffering Talk to them about it ask them if they're okay and don't accept like we you know, we all kind of you know one of that I'm fine. I'm fine You don't have to be fine. Nobody's fine. Like we're not fine. Like it's okay Yeah, take the mask off drop the facade and be vulnerable because we're humans and and be a good friend and family member and Help help people that you love identify their problems and work towards a solution. That's why we're doing this bad gas We're educating people. We're getting the word out like we need to we need to make sure that everybody feels supported and that you're not alone And then last but not least just be kind be patient Everybody is struggling right now literally everybody and you have a chance to make somebody's day Easier or harder based on how you behave and how you interact and Most important thing us about anareans we are built for just handling disaster after disaster Stressor like yeah, we're buried in dead with long hours no work life balance, but when somebody appreciates us sees acknowledges the value and what we're doing It makes it all worthwhile. That's that is literally it just be nice. We'll keep Burn in the midnight oil and trying to help animals, but Don't come at us and recognize that the consequences of your actions you're killing the veterinarians You're reducing our numbers. You've creating more opportunity for big companies to come in and buy out private practices Your actions are directly Contributing to the problems that are facing our ability to care for animals So be kind take a minute don't go online talk to management And I would say yeah along with that to some of the important things to her remembering like we're not all going to agree Like how can we come together and like have a respectful conversation or just not engage if you really disagree with someone So not utilizing that emotional energy to attack someone else it causes zero sense to stain your lane my dream business Keep it to yourself. Yeah, but you know lashing out could could end somebody else's life literally Yeah, and that's what we're experiencing in bed med so thank you for doing what you're doing Thank you for doing what you're doing. I'm so glad this worked out I feel like I was an important redo. I was a little I was a little nervous in my suit and at Mountside We're doing your podcast over spilt. Yeah, exactly You got to listen to Dr. Leon so we're spilt. You were very good. Thank you And you were amazing today. Welcome to Wayne's world basement I hope this was an interesting experience for you and yeah, I mean I'm sure we're gonna stay in touch and keep learning and and supporting each other and Trying to change the world one educational podcast at a time. Hey folks, Dr. Leah here Thanks for watching my podcast vet it out for more content about everything animal Make sure you like and subscribe and hit that notification bell to have the latest updates