Venter’s Vintage

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Fall flavors are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market. Cozy picks all through the store, like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time, and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer, while you still can spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret, of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else, and the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. If this is linked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your BBC podcast. Five lives will be union weekly. Bright lives Brendan Venter in the headlines last couple of weeks. He was their wine consultant. He's now changed roles about six times in a week. If you're a consultant or a rugby club, what would be your area of expertise? Actually, I'd be head of Mr. Menus. Good, good to me. Head of Mr. Menus. So in that, would you be like, this is what you can and can't do, because I've done most of them. Yeah, right. So like the Sarri's youngster got involved with the Ben Stokes thing. I'd been all over that. Yeah, this is what you do. This is how you handle it. This is what we're going to do next. Sort it. Nice. Oogs? Socials. Nice. Head of socials? Yeah. Stick that on LinkedIn. I think that'd be good. You were the best. Morph suits. We were ever in line for a club or a bar or something. You just send those to the front next thing, you know. Wist all in. Wist all through to the best table in the place. We just somehow get things down. Dave, what would be yours? I'd be Guinness expert, split the G. That'd be my thing. Talk to me about anything Guinness. Give me a party, Guinness. I'd split the G better. I wouldn't say that's really a job. What? I'd say it's a full time. No, we're not saying like a party trick. Like a party trick. All right, we'll just split it. Guinness expert. It's a party trick. Can we give you a job? Yeah, go on. What could it be your head off? I'd have a, I'd be an advisor to you on the mystery. Substitutes? Substitutes, yeah. Substitutes, yeah. Yeah? Like you and him in this. You were mega at that. Yeah. Extending my career. You could have everybody just come understanding what they need to do when they get on the pit. Yeah, when people start realizing that it's the best time to be on the pitch at the end when everyone's tired and you get to win or lose again. Exactly. You've got a central condition. Yeah, I'll do that. OK, loads to discuss. West Country Clubs are flying. Losery Summit back and form. Quins remain pointless. And of course, loads more on wine gates. I thought you just said, "Quins are pointless." Quins are currently pointless on the table. Sorry. But let's just put a cork in that for a second. This is "Rubb Union Weekly." "Rubb Union Weekly." "From BBC Sport and BBC Radio 5 Live." Did you not get the invite then to do the Brendan Venter? Interview. Yeah, he didn't fancy it. No, I thought Flats was the right choice for it. OK. A former Saris. I think he's a diffuser, isn't he? Yeah, he gets on well with people. He's got a relationship with the club. I thought he did a good job. But the interview was interesting. To use some of the Premier League terminology was a sham. [LAUGHTER] Why? Well, I just don't think it's been a great week for Saris and to full start. One, because-- but we're into round two of the Gallagher prayer. Round one was brilliant. It means so excited. And then just a load of unnecessary negative press, which they brought onto themselves. And I just thought, I don't think the intention of Saris, in any way, was to be disrespectful. But a lot of what they did came across disrespectful. So change of job title is absolutely fine. But technical direct to whatever. But to say like head of wine, that's-- you're taking the mic now. You're literally-- it looks like you're just taking the mic. And then that's obviously then got changed before the end of the week. Then you've got your first home match. You only sell 6,000 tickets. And you lose. What a bad week. Bad week. Do you know what I mean? If you're selling out and you're smashing teams by 50, I'm not saying that then gives you the right to do what you want. But when you can't even sell out your first home match, then-- oh, I don't know. You probably enjoyed it, they said. Oh, so Brendan's wearing a branded t-shirt just to advertise the vineyard of who he's working for. You're on Sarasyn's time. Look, why do you think Jurek and one of the places allows just to rock up in casuals to Saris' home match? Just where would you want? Joe Marla did it quite a bit. But he wore added-- What added us? He wore added us. OK, yeah, good one. He's really going to spend thousands, but he wore added us. So I'm like, it's just once again an unnecessary thing that's been put together just to prove a point. And I don't know really what the point is to point that we can do what we want. I don't know. It's just when everyone is trying to be collaborative, especially at the start of the season, why are we not trying to make the most effort to be collaborative rather than are we don't care, stick two fingers up at everyone, and delve into it. You were part of that team, which was like, no one likes us, we don't care. It feels a little bit like that. And it's-- I think the game's changed. No. Am I being fair? I don't know. Yeah, you're being absolutely fair, yeah. What are your thoughts on it, I mean? I think the game's changed the way you approach. And it is-- like I said, use the word collaborative. Even the way that Sarasyn's gone on with the Conor and rebranded him, they've really used socials and-- Brilliant rebrand, body. Yeah. But you can't. I don't think you can have it one way or not the other. That's why I just think it's just-- It's a bit of a shame, really. I think Sarasyn has done some amazing things in the last year or so, the North London Club, the original Club and all that sort of stuff, all the work they've done off the field, bringing new eyes to a new energy, new vibe. But then you've got a lot of people say, well, it's the same old Sarasyn thinking that they can do whatever they want. And we're talking from a TNT perspective. And a TNT paid load of money. 40 million. 40 million. And all-- For these clubs, which props up the league, and then it just feels like they're taking the Mickey out of everyone by-- oh, so he's not doing interviews today and taking fines without care, and he's changing his job title, all this sort of stuff. It just seems a little bit like, we're better than everyone. We don't care what you think. And you can only do that. And back in the day, you could do that because you were so much better at rugby than everyone, but at the moment, they're not better at rugby than most people. So they are-- And when you're only then sell 6,000 tickets. I mean, I was watching at home. I wasn't there, so I apologise. If this isn't the way it felt like at the game. But it looked flat. It looked quiet. It looked like a weird atmosphere. And then your team doesn't perform. And I don't blame the players, I blame the management for that, because I think they're putting the club under stress that they don't need when players put in players under more pressure with off-field antics. Well, that's the one part of any of that. They just want to play. And there was all this chat and, you know, Sarri's pushing for top four again and having this amazing team and culture again. And I just think some of the powers that be at the top of let the players down. So Mark McCall, on the game, I don't think he brings Thomas Williams off on 50 minutes. I thought that was a real change in-- I think when the game's that close, and Thomas Williams playing, but clearly a decision has been made, which he's mentioned that he's picked a team and will rotate for the next nine games. There was a bit decision made to give Charlie Bracken 30 minutes no matter what was going on. I don't think Mark McCall would make that choice. I heard-- it might have been you that told us actually going into the week one that they've almost pre-ordained the time which they made their substitutions. I heard that going into the sars. Right. He said that in the-- he did say they've picked and they're going to rotate. Yeah, but then what they're pretty-- Yeah. Well, clear. Yeah, you'd want to be a bit more nimble. If at 50 minutes you're like, OK, the plan is going into the week that we're going to do X, Y and Z. But then-- Take your best player off. You don't do that. So OK, on Thursday, when we're in a meeting room, sterile environment, fine. But now you're chasing the game and your best player. Maybe we keep him on. That's their decision. It didn't work in a favor. Charlie Bracken came on, actually played pretty well. But in terms of control, you'd want to get your best players on the pitch, you'd think, especially in what found like a real arm wrestle. Thomas Williams doesn't keep the ball away for two minutes to go. when you changed the game. That was a bizarre decision. Yeah, but that's just where Charlie is in his development or whatever, which is fine. But I just don't think Thomas makes that decision, does he? I don't know. Oh, sorry, is it like the week before? I was like, wow, that's a proper team again. Like they were. Yeah. Does that show more or less throughout the minute? Well, maybe, yes. Maybe, yeah. But also, and sale were disappointing the week before as well, and they turned it around. They were really physical. But even when the, sorry, it's got that penalty towards the end in Fergus, but he only kicked it 10 meters. You're like, at least go for it. Try and put it near the halfway line to give you a chance of slinging an attack or maybe getting another penalty and going down the corner. So I don't know, there was, and that's why I felt like all this stuff, and I wasn't there. I'll say it again, the stuff off the field. I don't know, maybe if it somehow impacted the players into going within their shells a little bit, like they were a little bit nervy, a little bit on edge. I thought with a few of their decisions, whereas the week before they looked really slick. Like Faz not being on the pitch at the minute. I mean, I don't know what's going on there, but he looks like he's fit, but he's not playing. And like that for me, like YZ not in their driving, the standards, and I'd imagine if he was on the pitch, he wouldn't have let them be as loose as they were at times, but also in those key periods, as you said, with all that experience, why would you not want him on the field to say, "No, let's keep goal to the ball." Or if you got a kick in, it's contestable. We win it back, we make sure we do. You know what I mean? So yeah, there's a bit going on there. I'm there this weekend. I'm looking forward to the game either, because there's a couple of knee injuries as well. Elliot went off, and Theo down went off. Both knees. Theo didn't look great. No. But the pitch looks flat. Does he get to a point with those pitches where you need to relay him? I was at Newcastle, have you been that far enough yet? Not this season, but if you get lost, he's outstanding. Of course it is. It's like, per, per, all new. Sores is the worst 4G in the league. I was walking across it, I'm like, "Wow, this is tight, all right, it was all brand new." It's old, it's really, really old. So I think Sarah's had a poor week, like unwanted distractions, the loser at home, poor ticket sales, not a great start. Let's not take anything away from sale. Wow, that was good. And it was the type of performance you often align to sell physical adversity. And I think the question was asked to Joe Ford in game. Were there almost two revs up for the game because I had to give too much reaction and you saw there in some of the cards. I thought Lasoski's card was not a card, because I think his first contest is actually on shoulder. And then because of how big the collision is on Barbary, he went blushes, so it was his secondary contest. But despite that, and the 20-minute red card, to be up at half time and then find a way to win the game, I thought their pack was just a minute. Jeboulou, unbelievable, Tom Curry, flipping out. Like a fit Tom Curry. Wow, makes a huge difference. Fordy played well. I thought Tom O'Flaherty, not just his finishing, but his work in the air. And he looked class. Joe Carpenter still, just like quietly, a very, very, very good rugby player. Tom O'Flaherty looked like a warboy at points. You know what he's just like? He's chasing kicks everywhere. It just makes you realise, I think you can forget as a team and Quindle like the minute where you forget what it takes every week to be at that level and to play at that level was, say, I'll know I've gone, oh, that's what we need, that's how we need to play so hopefully they'll carry on like that, 'cause they have got the team. But they just definitely felt like they were a level above worthy or end of last season and start at this season. So hopefully that, no, it's worth their basis. I think the big thing with sailors, they need those big boys out there every week, which is going to be the tricky thing for them because of how physical the demands of, they're putting on a curry, on a laws that you need to get. You need to have two of them working in tandem really, that one without the other is, - Laws was good, right? - Laws was great. - Very good. - And obviously had a point to prove and with leaving Syrie isn't the way it happened. But if you lose one of them, I think that's the hardest thing I think in this league is to keep everyone fit and firing to be able to be as physical as sail, obviously you're going to use that as their, you know, that's the USP this year. And they got back twice in the night's hours actually. - Yeah, and they got back twice. But I think, and again, I think Syrie's a watch that game back and be like, how have we not scored more points in those, and that's 20 minutes, you know, down to 13 for a bit. And then you look back in the detail of, there was Seacway going a little bit too far on the mall and blocking off and then the Tomkins try gets ruled out, you know, on another day, if they're a bit more clinical there, but the sail should have nickned one at the end when, yeah. - They tripped over. - Yeah, and Thomas Williams went from, I think maybe one to many quick taps and then they dropped the ball. It's like little things like that when you're, when they could think as Syrie's could play that game again and have that game again and especially that 20 minutes, I think they'd have managed it very differently, but Syrie's looked a little bit flat, sail were pumped and into them from minute one. I say this in a joky way, 'cause it's the only way I know, but as a serious point near, imagine if the fans could sub a ref. - Yeah. - So we've got another ref on the sideline and everyone votes, no, we need a change of ref. Maybe not the fans, but maybe, - Did you not play a ref? - Play as I'm playing very well. - Did you not play a ref? - You can be so substituted. I'm not keen for a Sunday afternoon, two hour game. I'm not keen. It kicked off at three, finished at five. - Was it the ref's fault? Were him going into every single line-out to make sure Lads are on the mark, his is fault, yeah. - But you know what, and you're right, and he would say to Theo Dan, there's your mark, guys, keep the space. - Happened every game, isn't it? - But after he told him once and twice, Theo's going to the mark and both hookers were doing it, Shabuila was doing it as well. He'd then walk off the mark, Susana liked, well, if he is the mark, I take my one meter off him. So I'm now, I'm getting done for closing the gap. I'm not closing the gap. I'm just taking my one meter mark of whether hooker is. It was annoying, there was way too much whistle. It was a pretty average game because there was no flow in it. There's Timo intervention, off Timo intervention, not blaming it on the refs because if Lads are committing acts of foul play, then it needs to be looked up, but it was so stop. Starting, but I would say, I think there's something in this is how Saracens play and this is the type of game you're going to get. It was no different to what we saw at Welford Road last week. It was an arm rest of the type of game. We've seen loads of tries. We've seen loads of attack being rewarded, but the two games Saracens have been in have felt more test match than anything else that we've seen. I think they drag you into that type of game, but yes, that I really started for sure. Yeah, I do think that's two teams, though, that almost negated themselves 'cause they try and play the game very similarly, which then played into, and they were right on the edge, both teams, weren't they? And that's why the ref was in so much. I think we've got to be challenging these refs to make more decisions themselves on field and see things, on, I know they can't see everything and it's a really hard job, but I was there, pitside, watching Loot Pierce referee, the Baff X to game Friday night. His level of communication is unbelievable. The way he keeps tempo in the game, and he's not afraid to make a quick decision to get the game going. And if he gets one wrong, he gets one wrong, but he's always constantly communicating. Nine, get rid of the ball, get the ball, get the ball, and then he's constantly communicate with the players, which some people might not like, but I just thought the flow of the game is helped so much with the referee that communicates more and backs himself to make his own decisions, rather than lying on TMOs coming in all of the sudden. We come back to that, you know the box kicking? We are allowing players to join. He said use it, and two lads are joining on, and then they're kicking it. I don't get why we're allowing that to happen. And I also don't like the fact that nine's a dummy, and you never used to be able to dummy. If you dummy, it's the balls out. It's just against the, but nine's a dummy, and then you can't get any kick pressure, and I know as a player, I'd have been like, nah, I want to dummy. But watching it now, the second row is a pointless. So we're not even giving them a chance to charge it down, because nine's a allowable job. They're like, they're joining, so he said use it, and then they're joining, it's like, come on. But referees communicate, get the game moving. Well, total contrast to the field, the rhythm, and the flow of everything of the stone ace, I was actually in game until today. That was a game, and talk about opening up the doors and being collaborative. I was also in the mix zone at the end. Bristol do a lot of things really well, and I'm going to start actually before the start of the game. Chris Boye, a co-owner of Bristol Bears, he unfortunately lost his wife a couple of weeks ago, and everyone should have known Bristol could win the game from how well they dedicated the match and showed their level of appreciation to Chris Boye's wife. That was really emotional to see him stood lined up with the players when they did a minute of applause, watching him tears in his eyes. I think it was Nick Mullins in commentary who told us that their first date was at Ashton Gate. And so it just felt like real full circle moment. So they did that really well. They played really well. They beat the champions at home. Then the mix-own after where you had access to every coach, every single player, I thought, was there a message in there? A message in there. I patted on doing the interview and then doing the mix-own. Was there a hidden message? It was quite timely with everything that we'd had in contrast to what Sarasant had done to then for Bristol Bears, what two days later, be like, "No, no, no, no, welcome, do what you want." Like, they've got nothing to hide. They've got everything to share. And they know that the more eyeballs and more column inches that we can occupy, the better that's going to be for the game. No one's taking the mix. No one's going in the mix-own, saying, "Tell us all your trade secrets." It was just what a brilliant day to do it, whereby they just allowed us and told us to be able to celebrate them better. Yeah. And everyone did that. Although it was class the whole day, it was brilliant, as you said, the buzz before the game. And then Bristol pioneering their brave, you know, with what happened last year against Northampton, shipping 90 points, it's brave to then say, "Right, well, next time we play them, we're going to open everything up, come and have a look, come and speak to us, speak to the players after." You got to win. You've got to win. And, but then we, for minute one, we were there, oops. I mean, before the game, you asked me the question, who's going to win? I was left, I don't know. From what, with experience of Bristol back in the last season, seeing how good they were at the start of the season and seeing how they finished, this year for me, I don't think any of us put them in our top four when we were predicting. And I know it certainly does, but to see the way that they have blended being absolutely brutal and violent with defence, but also the link to their unbelievable magic in attack. At the moment, they've got the perfect concoction for me to be right up there. Like, I know our hard work, John Crate's worked with this defence and trying to get them fired up. I've not seen a Bristol Pat look as fired up as that, but also have the player profile. You know, Rubeola in the second row was brilliant, gone donor, amazing. The fit's hard in that second. They were exceptional on Saturday, but they had the link of being that way, but also they've put a pragmatism to the game. They're kicking the ball a lot more, they're being a lot smarter with their decisions. When they're going, they're going, but when the time isn't right, they're making way better decisions from 9 and 10 and 15 to put the ball in behind teams to wait for their chances, but when they get 'em with gaps and lyrishry salmon out there, they thought they got the blend perfect on Saturday to beat Saints. It's a big change, isn't it? For years, we were going, "What are they doing?" And they'd score tries from everywhere. And they're probably a lot of the reason why the Prem has got scorelines, because they were playing from everywhere and they were scoring these tries and people were like, "I want a bit of that." But no, they have drastically changed. That's probably why we weren't at the top four, because we just thought they were going to continue with the style of playing from everywhere and we'll score more of the new attitude, which has come politely switched the playing. I don't want to say proper of people. It's got the playing in the right areas and kicking it away. It's just great to watch. Yeah, that's got some big plays to come back. In the sketch, they had no revivo, who I think is just one of the best players to watch in the league. And they had no bill matter. But you stick those words at it. They're different to makers. I know it is early, but I did watch them. And by the way, Saints are susceptible to that type of game that we saw where they just got battered at the breakdown, stopped all their flow. It happens to them towards the end of last season. That's another thing, yeah. It was where it rode. But with Saints, I think it's. Their game is so intricate, it's so detailed and it's so highly skilled. But it is all based upon winning the Physicality Battle up front. I think it's extremely, extremely difficult to get a pack and set a forward to deliver that every single week, that level of high quality skill, but also be physically like red hot for it. Because everyone knows if you want to be Saints, you have to make a mess in the balls. Imagine going into every game, just be like, this is going to be another fight. They're just going to just try and mess up our ball to get yourself up for 18 matches all this weekend. So that's why they are susceptible. So I look at that game in isolation knowing that Saints have those type of matches in them three, four times of season. They'll be better this week, the back of the garden, they've got bath coming to town, and they'll have to fix it. And they will. So it looks quiet, isn't it? I thought it was good at the weekend. He's not having the-- we've got used to these impacts in games. More or less, every time comes on the pitch. He isn't having that impact. Fitch's hiding was better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he needs a bit more around in, though, in terms of people to share the load. I mean, he did a couple of bits on the weekend where you're like, not many back rows in the world. Oh, yeah, yeah. You can do, like, the link to the try. The Lads talks about it in cons that only, probably, Ardysavera, Benl, those type of players can do. Because he looks like a back plane in the fall. That's it. He's the extra bit, isn't it? Yeah. I was mean to San Walton for the game, and he said, for me, he loves Pollock, loves what he's all about. And I mean, I trust Sam's opinion. But he's like, for him to be a world class back rower, it's the bits that Ardysavera does defensively. Every single break down, making an absolute menace of it, being a nuisance. With all the attack stuff is brilliant. But once he starts slowing rook speeds down to five seconds, six seconds of rock, and he's doing that every single time, and he's only young, he's still going to learn, and he's getting up there. But I think Bristol just dominated that area so much that you took away Pollock's main strength, and Fitz Harding was brilliant at the breakdown. Oh, great. They've got players coming in from anywhere. Van Rensberg, brilliant, until, unfortunately, he came off. But Saints, it's easy to look at it in hindsight. I do think they've got the selection a little bit wrong. I just wish teams would keep Tommy Freeman in the best position for him, which is on the wing. But this is where the fur bank thing comes in. I know, it's not probably ready. Well, they're trying to look after Peter, which I absolutely get. But there was a-- and I like Holly Slough, I think he's a great player. But there was a chance that he dropped, which Tommy Freeman doesn't drop. He's the best finisher in the league to give Saints another try, and they messed that opportunity up. Pay to come on a bit later on, look great. Did a couple of great little touches. And I know they've got to look after him, and he can't play a week in week out. But for me, Tommy Freeman and him and Manifield were both the best two wingers in the firm. Play him on the wing, because you'll get the best out of him. But Saint-Samson-- I don't want there for five. Yeah, Saint-Samson looks at the-- Yeah, it's the denishes to try. For me, there's only a different player on the wing. But yeah, that's five in a row now, Ashton Gate Saints have lost. It's pretty strong. And then this weekend's huge bristle going to Starris. Yeah, over 20,000 Ashton Gate, ladies and gentlemen. What's it all, Ashton Gate? It's so big in here. I think it's the second biggest aided. Mattioli would still like largest capacity. Is that right? Yeah, I think like Ashton-- I think Mattioli would like 27, 28. Ashton Gate will be about 25. It's a big old bowl. But in terms of teams that are ticking all the boxes this week, we just discussed one that perhaps didn't tick a lot. Bristol ticked every box. They were very good, but they've got to back it up. This is the relentless nature of our league. It is, there's just no easy games. There's no easy games. Ashy, end of the game. Resammer, who was brilliant, by the way, is looking really strong, looking rapid. He chips and chases for a hat trick and Toby Freeman wipes him out. I felt his pain. I felt his pain. He's so good at a chip of chase, and he was going to score. Of course he was. Well, they give a penalty try, didn't they? I couldn't care less for the penalty track. No, I'm the same. I was like, that's purely selfish, isn't it? Yeah, totally. I was like, D.C., I was like, I want the penalty. He kicked to the corner. He'd get me the ball. I'd need my hat trick. You've got to take him out. I quite liked it for free. You can't look. You can't look. You can't let. No, no. You also can't let it back, badly obvious. You can't let it back, badly obvious. I'll excuse you. You used to do it all the time. And he used to really annoy me. You know, annoy me is when he's talking anyway. He would get away with it somehow, with the refs. But no, I quite liked it from Freeman. He could have done it better, but. I loved it from Freeman, but. But also, there's little things, you know. Resammer and Freeman would be right up there to try to score this year. He's like, I'm not giving him another one. Oh, yeah. I don't mind it, I'm here for it, yeah. I felt his pain. Yeah, it was calling him a little rat, wasn't he? He was calling him a little rat. Both of them did it to me, well. A little rat? Yeah, I needed one more to get the league record. And I was on the inside for the inside pass and before, as it passed the ball, he took me out before I caught it. The rage is still like hard inside, you know. So I was at Northampton. I needed this try to get the record. and he just cleaned me out of the ball. It wasn't even a penalty. - He was great time for that. - I was on to the rage. Still bothers me, obviously, deeply now. - He just took me out of the ball. - I didn't get it. - What? - Yeah, penalty try, whatever. - Oh, mate, when was that? It was 20, 2000 and 90s and 10s, no chance. That was play-on. (laughing) - That was play-on. - Good tackle. - The record was the last band get out of the way. - It's great play all round fair. - Right, let's stay in the West Country boys 'cause they are one, two, and three in the pream. Gloucester. Backing up their way in extra. - We'll go on to quins in a minute, but let's start, I think, with the respect you got to give to Gloucester. Two from two, 10 points in the bank. And they look like a property, Mashi. The blend again that we talked about with Bristol. - With you, Brenda, Vendlin. - You've used Jesus. - He's taught you in. (laughing) - He has any. (laughing) - But yeah, I get them. It's good to see you. - I see you. - A lively shared in it. - Yeah, vintage cluster under. - Yeah, I'd just great to see. - There was a guy in there. - There we go. (laughing) - That's great, man. - Come on. Come on. - I'd got that on the re-list and I got that on. (laughing) - Yeah, it's good to see the shared happy, but I don't know what the stats are, but it can't be, it must have been a long, long time since then one, two in the prems start and the season. - It's the best start to the prems for. - And Mashi's got to be a long time. - Three, four years, I think. - Oh no. - I think, I get, it's only 50 points and it's great, but the best thing of what we talk about in this league is got to be the zero. It has to be. - Nillin, a team like that at home, in this league is very, very, very hard to come by. And they've done it at first attempt at home. They're in a good spot and they, none of us would have called that. - I've back lost it to Wynn, but not a 48 Nill. - Absolutely not, 'cause I was expecting a response from a Harley Quinn to a touch on them in a sec. But we've just gone from talking about a team that are doing a lot right with Bristol, I think, lost the 100%. Bench in it last week, but from top to bottom, they've just got it spot on. You've got George Giverton, who's pivoted from being director, rugby, he is boots on ground and he's coaching. And I'll tell you what, he will be avant dreams about their driving more at the moment. - Like, he is oven life, right? Jimmy, when you've gone from, like, I'm Ford's coach, I'm in charge of this area and they're just pummeling guys, brilliant. Chris Boyd, his fingerprints are right across this team. James Lightfoot Brown, the attack coach, just come from London Irish. He's been doing crackin' things the last couple of years, but. - Some of the tries, man. - Of course. And then you've got Rob Burgess, head of recruitment, Darry Lake, John Klein, Jack Morgan. They've now given the backline a pack that can compete. And so, guess what? Englefield looks better. Charlie Atkinson looks better. So, backkinson looks better. Well, Joseph, like, everyone just looks better because you have quality front football. And so, their variation of having a wicked more throughout. And I think it was three years ago that had one of the best malls in the league, so that's fallen off to, now they're right back at it. So, the ability to be able to beat people up up front. And if that doesn't work, you can then go to the backs. They're doing it really, really well. Everyone just looks better. And their variation of tries, their hunger in defence, Brett Deakin, Joel Tomkins, like, it's all working. I know it's only two weeks, but from the evidence we've seen, it's, yeah, it looks very good. - The Lightfoot Brown attack, like, say, backkinson's try. - When they switch back short side. - Oh, good. - Someone at the back, someone inside. That's a properly good, like, training, growing try. That's, they don't come off that much. But when that stuff starts coming off, you're like, hang on a minute, lads properly are buying in and know what they're doing here. They're on to something. So, it just was good to see that not only did they back up last week, but they're also Lightfoot Brown is getting his ability to be able to get his attack on the pitch. - I think the most impressive thing for me is the work that they've done off the field. Like, as you said, in terms of recruitment, coach wise, but also, it's not rocket science this league sometimes. Name me a team that's won this league without having a brilliant pack, nearly international quality pack. You can't. There's no way, I know. I always go back to, with Harlequin's people say, "Oh, you lads were brilliant through the ball around from everywhere." I was like, "Yeah, we did because we could." Because we had a pack that delivered us front foot ball and would get us going, and you had a mall, and you had a scrum that you could scrum for penalties, and you could scrum for field position. So, that's when I look at recruitment, I look at some size that have recruited this year, and I'm like, "That's not the one. It isn't the one." You have to have a pack that can consistently deliver you front foot ball, and that are physical, and aggressive, and confrontational, and you've gone and got a well-cut winner, and they've gone and got Wales' two best players. Instantly changed everything, and as you said, it was the catalyst that that's had around the team of firstly breeding some confidence, but then also breeding some quality ball. So then, well, Joseph, who I'm a massive fan of, and I've always had been the delight when Quinn signed him, and Quinn's did not look after him, and get the best out of him, which is another thing we'll come onto. But I know, I mean, we'll go, I got to present him with his first ever England cat, which is a massive, I feel very honour to be able to give him that, and he's only ever had one, and I'd love to get his team to see him back in the team, and I do think he's good enough to play for England, loads more times, multiple threats. But they've got some brilliant rugby players, that lo and behold, when you get him on the front foot, they can go and show what they can do, and yeah, they absolutely destroyed Quinn's, which is tough to watch as a form player, but you've got to win my gloss, so you can't take anything away from them. Rufus, well, I've got a question for you, too. Has Harlequins, or is this the worst place Harlequins have been since a blood gate? Gosh. Well, on the pitch, I guess they've done the big game stuff, and they've brought that to the league, and they do a good match day experience, all means naff all, does it? If your team is coming away with results like that. Yeah, I mean, I've been kind of dreading this part because you've got to talk about some of the genuinely hurts you to watch. Look, I've been in Quinn's sides where we've been bad, like we have been, we've been really bad. I was playing a couple of years back where we lost 62-0 at Lenster, but that's Lenster. That is a full international team. You probably turned it around the week after? Yeah. The, my worry with what I saw at the weekend, and who, if you saw the stats, didn't you afterwards? That's the most alarming thing for me. Normally, if, normally, listen, this league, you can get a battering, you can. If you don't turn up, you can get a battering. And no disrespect to Gloucester, but they finished what one place higher than Quinn's last year in the league? Yeah, the 8th and the 9th. I could almost forgive going to Franklin's Gardens and saying to put in 50 on you, and you're not scoring a point. I could almost forgive that. But when it's the team that were just above you, that you don't spend any warning the same moment. Yeah, and then you look at it and you're like, I mean, I didn't see that coming. Now, I was at Quinn's the week before against Bath and generally looked, maybe promising that they were throwing the ball around a bit more. They looked a bit more structured, and their forwards are up for it, and they were banging people in defense, and they lost the game against Bath. But you almost saw some green shoots of this, this could be an improving side. And then to go and watch that on the weekend, I mean, was it one entry to the opposition 22? I mean, I don't know even how you can defend that. I can't understand how that can physically happen. 49 missed tackles. So there's obviously systemers. You can blame systemers all you want, but for me, it's a desire to want to defend for your mates and defend for the club. And hurts me to say probably a little bit that I didn't see much of that from players out there on the weekend. It's one of the worst performance I've ever seen in the program, by any team. And it doesn't matter which way you look at it. And this is a brutal conversation, like Quinn's the only club I've ever played for. They're in my heart. And-- 26 years, I think. Yeah, it's the worst result for 26 years. It's so much easier if you could talk about them positively, but that's been quite difficult to do over the last season and definitely going into the weekend. I've just, do you know when you analyze something? I'd love to know when they go into their meeting today and they try and draw a line under it, like where they try and begin to rebuild. We'll talk about rebuilding round two into a new season. He said that last year. But I honestly don't think it's the coach's fault. I don't-- I think they've been put in place. I think Jason's been moved from being here. for defense coaching has been given this job. He's been told he's now got to be DOR. I don't think it's there. - What's the where is it? - I think it's higher up. I saw, we sat here and said, as good as for bankers, that he's not somebody that they should be signing. - Staggered. - And I'm sure he's gonna be class player for them and he'll get there eventually once they've thought. He is not what they need. They haven't got any pack. So we can't be sat here and go in. That's what they need. But they aren't seeing it. And then they go to the Robbie Deans route and they've stuck with Jason Gilmore and this and that. The coaches, I'm sure, are looking and trying as hard as they can to get things right. Maybe it's just not them that are the problem. - Yeah, no, I'd agree with that. And I think there's a great comparison between Gloucester and Quinn's one because of what you mentioned, Danny. They finished eighth and ninth. But also comparison into then how they reacted and responded to the changes that are needed. So Gloucester go right. We'll have a welcome winner in the second row. We'll have a well-class hooker and we'll have a world-class number seven. Okay, that's money well spent. Quinn's go. We'll have a world-class 15. Yeah, that's great, but I think first go and invest into your pack because George Fairbank's brilliant on the front foot. That's what you see in Northampton. They just don't have it. Quinn's substituted the whole front row at half time. I look at the match and I think you got smashed in the scrum, got smashed in the line out. Your backfield coverage was poor, got smashed at the game line. And you didn't score a single point in a league where they're literally handing out points like, for free, like everyone's scoring points. They haven't got a single bonus point in two matches. You can see that over 80 points, you've only scored 17. In a league where everyone's mocking the attack. Like, that seems to be the easiest thing to do. This isn't new, that's the thing. No, it's not new, but you get to a point where I watched them. I went to the street twice and covered them for the Prem Rugby Cup and I watched them and I thought, this is it, this is looking better. So there's a sense of optimism. And because there's been a sense of optimism, it feels like the disappointment is even greater because you believe that they would be better than two rounds into what you're thinking. This is going to be such a long season all over again. And I don't know, yes, I think it's absolutely relevant to say, Marcus Smith makes a difference. Alex Domba, when he comes back from his ACL, makes a difference. Finn Baxter makes a difference. Of course, they make a difference. But can I give you a quick example of a properly good. Dior, who's in that role, he's confident, he's got the backing of the club, but he understands his position. Let's take Pat Lamb last year. They've got injuries in big positions and they went around to get players in to solve that, absolutely. Let's solve that problem right there and then. Finn Baxter's been out for, how long has he been out for? There is injury dispensation in the cap where you can go and get a player, bring them in and let him play, what I don't, work, work, it's all the Queen's money. Where is it all? Well, I just don't get what they're doing with it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if Queen's are up to the cap. I think they're I think yeah, well that table last year it was. So you've got to have a look at where your money's been spent and like I like you said, the recruitment retention piece has been a problem at Queen's for quite a while now. It's not been since Andre and me. Yeah, and then they've never replaced Andre. On Marla, myself, we could go on. But you all haven't been replaced. But then that's why in a way our senior lads can I saw this coming? Can I ask you a question on this? Yeah. Other clubs, they retain players or they might go to them and say, do you have any aspirations to be in a club, be a coach? I got a goal there back here with Mike Brown. But the disappointment, what happened to Brownie? Whether this is another thing, the coach and stuff. Coach has come the gold all the time, the players don't. When you got a player like Mike Brown at a club, you probably do the right thing and say, we probably need to keep this guy who's so invested in this club at this club. They didn't, so there was right on the wall in Brownie when, with you, was it ever a conversation where they would say, do you fancy staying on or being a coach at this club longer term if we put some investment in no? No. Never. Never won the conversation. Yeah, but mate, this goes back. I'll spin up my club back. This goes back way over a decade. It's crazy. I look at the golden period of Harlequin's, right, from like 20 2009, or until like 2013, where winning Premier League pickups so that the academy's working to win in the Premier, to win in Europe and Silverware. Not single one of those players across that period, the most successful period in the club's career. Not single one of those players won, and he's just got, he's just got told to go. Yeah. Nick Evans. Nick Evans, a Jordan Tana Hall. Jordan's coach. So he got two players from Harlequin's golden era that are just not attached to the club, not advised, not spoken to, not kept on. For me, that's staggering. And does that fix the problems of Saturday, no? But I think it says a lot. Well, of course a lot more developing. I think it does help. I think it helps. And by the way, this is not me speaking, but like, I call me, ring me. This is not, this is not a come get me play. That time's been and gone. But I think it's, I think it's astonishing to have that. And I'm talking Olly Cohn, Nick Easter, Joe Marla, Mark Lumber, like George Lowell, all of those players make the amount of intel intellect that could help, whether it's players coming in, transitioning or understanding the DNA. And I don't know what the club's DNA is anymore. It's always been about entertainment. It can't be about attack. It cannot be about attack. Because Northampton attack better than you, Bristol attack better than you, Gloucester attack better than you, extra attack better than you. I've just named four teams. How can that be your USP when you might be the fifth or sixth best in the league at it? If it is, you don't have a defence coach, you do. And none of it makes sense. I don't think I'm qualified to have his conversation, but if it's on paper and I'm looking at it, I'm like, well, that doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense. None of it goes together. I can't believe we're having this conversation the last first week of October. Well, anyway, on a positive note on this quiz thing, they are halfway through the next decade to winning a trophy. The five years in. Quinn's. Oh, yes. So they did 10, the one at 10 years, won it the no five years into the next decade. So they've got five more years and then they'll win it again. Get your bets on. We can hope. We can hope. Speaking of hope. Friday night, bath, exeter, a game that looked like all hope had gone for a cheese by half time. Basically, exactly the same as the semi-final, apart from the outcome. I was watching a half times thinking you're 16 points up. Then 15 minutes into the second half. Cheese with three points. I was like, what? Surely not again. There's a good game, though, wasn't it? Pretty game. It was mad that the half-time score was literally exactly the same. And then, yeah, bath to stop playing. And exeter, like, surely that would be the only thing you'd say is a bath player. Keep going. But it is hard sometimes when the men, someone, whenever is shifted, bath were great. They were great in that first half. They were ruthless. They were clinical few in few players down as well. But you don't hear them complaining about it all. The new players come in step up because of the environment that they've got. Exeter for that period, that 10, 15 minute period. You're like, wow, that's the extra from last season. That's the team that got them to the final. The team that we didn't see last week against Gloucester. But then, I think, bass bench, again, just came on and told Ted Hill. Yeah. I could see her first game in 20 months or something. Just power, physicality. And we're talking again about the pack that they've got. It's no wonder Finn can sit in the pocket and do his magic and Maxi Jomo coming on on Lawrence, Cam Redpath. Foxy went off with a what should have been probably a red card to Varnie. But. He knows what he's doing there, I think. We've all been there, mate. I think, and thrown a bit of a cheap shot when. I had to look it again yesterday. You're not thinking about it? No. You're not. I think. Do you remember Freddister when he got red carded away in Ireland, where he braces for contact? In those motions, the more you see it, the more you're forced into making a decision. That I don't think fairly is accurate enough of the situation. We've got like two strands. You've got the law, which is so black and white. And it's black and white because it should make it easy to follow. Because you go, "Is he upright?" "Yeah, is there head contact?" "Yeah, well, x plus y equals z." But then you put context into it. It all happens so quick. And I think Varnie goes upright and puts his arms across his chest. That's the kind of motion you often do in your brace and for contact when you've been spooked. So. If I actually said this to a referee yesterday, if you walk round the corner and I jump down and scare you, the first thing you do is go, you get yourself upright and the arms come across you. - I'll be ready, mate. - It's a swing one. And I thought we saw that in that incidence. I thought Luke Pearce dealt it really well. If that goes up on the big screen, you see it six times, then maybe you see a different kind of card. But anyway, that doesn't take anything away from the quality of the game. - No, I don't think he meant it. In the ball, change position. - Yeah. - Okay. - This is where I think the way you are is a player. Helps. - Right. - Say if that's fast. - Yeah. - He's gone. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Just as people are clean record. - Well, yeah, he's just not seen as that to have. - No, no, no. - Can't play, he's not that kind of. - You be gone. - He's a scumbag, I'd be gone. Fast and be gone. - You'd probably be all right. - Yeah, he would, yeah. - You be gone, I'd be gone. - I'd be gone. - I'd just walk you right in the tunnel anyway. - I'd just walk off. - I'm talking to being gone. The wine must have been decent at Bath on Friday night. We had three people on the pitch. The security team at Bath is like the Quinn's defense. (laughing) - They had three people on the pitch. - Oh yeah, yeah. - Well, they weren't even streak. If you're going to do it, do it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - What Quinn's in charge of the game? - What of them? - What of them? - You see, what of them? The ref, no one even saw him. - He's just running. - He wasn't, didn't get a reaction from the crowd. He literally just ran. - He's getting booed at one point. - He's in the packs and then just walked in. And then we were like, "Well, at least." - Like three of them, come on, that's three. - Right. - If you're going to go on there, show us something. You don't need to. - The chem forest, the chem, it's a chem forest there. - Must've been three at Bath on Friday night. (laughing) - But yeah, the security, wow. Yeah, they might want to have a look at that. - I need you. - Give that one. - I need you. - We've seen those pictures of those memes when they're just like, "Yeah, that one was awesome." - Like that, and then down. (laughing) - Newcastle Ashie, how was it? - That was a trip first. - But the less said on that, the better. - No, no, no, no, I want to hear all about it. - No, you don't, mate. - No, I do. - Why? - 'Cause I like to hear that. (laughing) - I thought I'm not staying town sat the night in Newcastle. That is a bad decision. - Yes. - That place is rammed all the time. So I was there at the airport. Five years from my decision. Until the fire alarm went off at 1.30, honestly, no matter what, I didn't know what it was. (laughing) - But it didn't go off. So I'm like, "Oh, better get it all." - Just kept going. But then I get up and it goes off. So then I get back down. And then someone about half two ish just decided to start slamming doors everywhere. It must be like a group of lads. Everyone's in the corridor. Don't know what's going on. It's all ladies like. It got me up at three o'clock. So yeah, it was fabulous. And I wouldn't be so bad if the game was great, but the game just wasn't great. It was a lot of drop balls, a lot of stop start. Lester on to the fourth choice hooker. They were trying to throw every line over the top. - Oh man, poor guys. - Because they can't get a ball in. - Yeah. - Yeah, they're on the ropes, Lester. They've got, they're struggling in certain positions they just haven't got anyone. I don't know how you get down to your fourth choice hooker. Where's Will? - Will Kray? - Get on the blade. - Will Kray? - Wait, he's on to somewhere, you're anywhere. - He is, yeah. - Well, it is an interesting point, 'cause I was with Conno Shaker a few weeks ago. Someone asked him in the Q&A, would you rather do a draft system for kids coming out of school? And he said, and I hope I'm not miss more than any confidence here. Now, he said that he would be something that he thinks would be amazing. He made the example that at Northampton Saints at the minute, they've got Alex Mitchell, Archie McParland. Johnny Weiman is the England and the 20 Scamath and they've also got the England and the 18 Scamath coming through, which is obviously amazing for Northampton, but probably not great for development for these young lads. So, you know, and I've, you know, we said, we talked about, could you be a system where those guys will enter then a draft and, you know, say if less than either hooker they could have, they could have first dibs on the most promising hooker or if Sarri's needed a Scamath and Scamath could go there. And I mean, so it just, because he said he got, it was frustrating last year, amazing for Will Kray and great story that he got to come and play rugby, but she would have been under 20. Kids in the under 18 system and under 20s are system with England that can't get game time at the minute because there's stuck in his club. They're stuck. So it's something maybe for the future, whether it'll ever happen, I don't know whether clubs would want that, but, you know, they want to have their net and cast wide and deep so they don't miss anybody, but for young players development, it might be a good thing that, you know, the player could be sent from wherever, even if you could go on loan now from, there's not enough room for performance. So you could go on loan from sarries, the hookers, they've got five deep, could you send one into less than hour, say, right, go and get some great game time. You'd great for you as a person. It's just whether the clubs would get on board with that, I'm not sure. Nice to could do with that, and in that department right now. But really good. Newcastle competitive, though. Were they any better? Yeah, the defence was pretty solid, but we spoke, when we mentioned about Bristol before and them changing their game plan, just to be more consistent in the league and win games better. Newcastle playing, trying to play from their own 22 and stuff, I just don't think they're at that level or have that sort of understanding to understand how to, to get Bristol ages to, and that's pack control in every single player where he wants him, how he's going to work, how he's going to get up the pitch. Newcastle would have just slinging it, so I'd not really go in anywhere. But I think that I thought that's good of well to get the win. Newcastle, good of one. You think that tackle from Hammerweb, that ball needs to go inside from Oberty Nimbo to Wadey. They then go back to backscores and are now lester in a proper armour. It was an armourist with a home match and watched it at home. But. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah, no. No, genuine, I did. I've got back stuff at Hallix and he's libous, aren't we? Yeah. Nice, man. I was in the fire alarms. LAUGHTER I was impressed with like Newcastle's dogginess. They've got some quality forwards that can play and confide in me. I thought Tommy Reffel was unbelievable at the breakdown by the way for lester. But for Newcastle, I'm pleased that they're in a position. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And pleased they're in a position now. Well, I think they're going to be competitive every single week. That's good. They've picked up two losing bonus points in the last couple of weeks. That's great. That needs to be minimum standard now. So, yeah, we'll see where they get to this weekend. They do like pre-match and stuff was good to you. You can see there's investment there and. The try-in. But that stand still needs to go. You know, that one. The changer is a stand. Yeah, that bit. That bit's gone. Is that in the plans? Re-development? I don't know. Is it, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, that one's gone to go. Maybe next week? LAUGHTER Yeah, back up then, it's just turn up in the digger. Honestly, they've spent a lot of money at the club just trying to get the minimum standards of the stadium. They've looked better. Yeah, it's better. Right, AOB and shout-out. There was two rugby league grand finals. Yeah, you know. The reason we are mentioning it, I know the rugby union pod, but one, Marky Mark, I can't even say his second name, which is embarrassing right now. Does it know I can little assay? Yes. It's got two in the grand final, but the whole thing's a big story in Australia, because he's coming back to the rugby union, and they're like, "What? This is left." He's, like, not the best player in the league, 'cause that went to Yumaan Clareo as it should do every year. Buddy has been right up there with that best player. It's got two in the final. He's the main man, and he's leaving. Some of his moments this year have been. Yeah, I've seen some rugby league pods and stuff, and they're like, "He's gonna come to the rugby union again "and see it in slow motion," or all this stuff. I'm like, "There isn't a 10 meter gap in the rugby union." Everyone's up here, and there's two more players on the pitch, he probably won't go that way. Buddy has been out standing in the rugby league, and he managed to win a. And the rooster's coach, assistant coach is checker. Yeah, yeah. So he's gone there, and he won, which is outstanding. It's hard enough. And then in the super league in this country, Wakefield from absolutely no work, I've just turned it round and won the grand final with Censiv, Cef, Sinfield's boy. Sir Cef Sinfield's boy playing Scrumath Standoff, come on, which one is? But he's half back in there, and he's won it, which no one would have predicted. Imagine your dad's, like, who is loved by everyone? Like, we often talk about trying to find like sporting personalities that can like cross the Rubicon and like become a bit more mainstream. And you don't have to have the best band, the biggest jokes or social media following. Cef's not on social media, but he's crossed over and loved by everyone just because he's a great human bit. And all he ever says, and he distills it into the most simplest terms is he just wants to be a good mate. To do seven ultra-marathons, seven days. And by the way, still look as fresh as you like. I hate it, isn't it? I don't get. I don't think he's human, mate. But he's not like that. And then rock up, old traffic, to watch your kid play, round of applause, stand in ovation by everyone, regardless of who you support, whatever, what your allegiance is, to then take a seat, having done all that, having raised over a million quid for Rob Barrow's and MND, to then watch your son. We're in the grandfather, what a week, what a day. I read it the stars, isn't it? I text him on the day, so I hope it's a brilliant day for you, sinfuls today. And that kev does, which I imagine he does to everybody, takes you straight back. I think it's a lot of me, I hope you're well, the family are good, and you like it, don't you? It's got probably millions of people, but he is just one of the best humans. He's got at least three minutes in between the same case. One of the best humans in the world. You made him take a while. No, the world is three minute gap. I didn't expect to text back, but because it's kev, he does, and he's just the way he is, and he's just not very careful. He can't really speak anything, and you've made it, he's very good at it, as if he could buy it. But yeah, amazing, human, he just keeps doing it, and we're very lucky to have him here, as one of our own, what a man. When he was coached at Leicester, you know, sometimes you can get a bit awkward anyway, get a bit of sherry tea or whatever in training, it's almost not going right. He literally just come over and whisper to you, "You don't need to be like that." He's like the angel and everyone's shoulder, Kevin. He's just whispering, "You don't need to be like that." No, no, you are downright, don't argue with that. Just if anyone could take anything, just be more like Kevin. Yeah, how humble did you feel? Yeah, yeah, right on the spot, you know, like you're losing your luck. Revin' with it, too much testosterone. No, no kev, you're completely right. Be more kev. We could all be more like kev. I don't drink more wine. Oh, less wine, one of the other. Oh, dear. Cheers, that's a good point, that for bodied wine flies when you're in fun. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info. Head to the BBC Sound app. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret. Of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. Yes, this is believed to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets Catching My Teacher. 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