Vanessa Van Edwards: The Science of People

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My friends, my name is Lewis Hous, and having done the School of Gradness podcast since 2013, I've collected a wealth of knowledge that's no longer available on the podcast platforms because it only allows us to have a certain amount of episodes up at one time. And that's why I've created this show, because I feel like it was a disservice to you if they were kept locked in a vault and not available for you. Welcome to the School of Gradness Hall of Fame. Welcome back to one of the School of Gradness podcast. Excited about our guest today, Vanessa Van Edwards. Good to see you. Yes! Thanks for being here. Hand hugs. Can we do a hand hug? What's a hand hug like this? Oh, isn't that good? What's a finger hug? Oh, the oxytocin. That was so much oxytocin. The connection. I was excited about this. We had you on three years ago, right? Yeah. It was a while ago. And it was a massive hit. And we're having you back on now because we've got a book out called "Captivate." The science of succeeding with people. And this is the type of stuff that I love talking about the most. You're going to do your captivating face. Yeah, that's good. I don't know. It's like the. It's like a glistial. It's like, you either like a smizing or it's like a glistial. Exactly. This is the stuff that fascinates me the most. And so I always love connecting with you about this because I feel like you're someone who understands me very well. very well I think you understand me because you can probably reverse engineer how I've achieved certain things in my career and my life by everything you're talking about in this book and beyond that I don't even know about and you are. I'm in the book chapter five. You're chapter five. You're my anchor story. Don't get the book. She says the anchor story to everyone. No. You're the anchor. You're the most important chapter. That's, that's how you can character someone in the first five minutes. Tell them their new story. You acknowledge them. You talk about exactly. Works really well for connecting exactly. So you wrote this book. Captivate the science of 16 with people. I love the first couple pages where it shows a photo of you with like, I don't know if you have braces on or not. Oh yeah. You're like helmet hair. You're braces. Do you like my vest? That is that is the sound I was making when I took that picture. Just like that. Can I tell you about that picture though? Sure. So I'm an LA. My family is here. And I give my mom the galley. And she was like so excited. She's like, oh my god. Yay. And she hopes she was like, why did you choose this picture? I was like, mom, like that's real. Like real life. Like that's that was me. And she said something that was interesting. She was like, that was the most painful part of your life. Why would you share that? Which I think is really you have to connect with people and show them that you're not alone. And then you're just like everyone else. Yes. Also, like I have this problem. People like will put me in the expert position. Like I'm always kind of uncomfortable in that position a little bit because I'm not a naturally charismatic person. I'm not naturally extroverted. I'm a recovering awkward person. And so I was like, I could either position myself in the intro like everyone does as I. Yeah, all these awards. I'm extrovert. I'm I'm naturally charismatic. And I was like, but like that is not me. So I was like, I would rather switch it and say it is so hard for naturally charismatic people to teach people how they do what they do. It's much easier in a certain sense to not be that person and have to learn it the hard way. So I say that I learned it the hard way to teach to you the easy way. So that was a big that was a big decision. I mean, if I showed you a photo of myself, I sent a photo actually. I don't leave you though. No, hold on. No way. No, you were like an athlete. I was like a athlete. Come on. I was an athlete the way you are an extrovert. I was not an athlete because I was good because I was bad. And I said, I'm going to master this just like you were. Yeah. So that's kind of how I became. Are you going to show me a best picture because I want to see helmet hair? No, not a vest. Let me see. I'll show you a photo of me recovering awkward Lewis. I want to see this is pretty goofy. You know, oh, yeah, it's pretty like. Yeah, I mean, I was like tall and gangly and you know, all those things. But I was like, okay, how can I learn how to be a great athlete? So reverse engineer. I wasn't like gifted as a kid. And I was very awkward. I was in the special needs classes. I couldn't read and write. Yeah, I was awkward and connecting with people. I was the youngest kid always in the sports teams because in high school, I started to become good at sports because I put my energy in that. So I was like the freshman with all the seniors. So I was like always nervous and awkward and they were like cool. And I was like, you know, so I had to learn how to connect with people. And I think I told you this before when I was a senior in high school, I was like terrified because all the the jocks that I hung out with were gone now. So it was just me. I was like, oh, no, no, no, I want to become friends with everyone. So I hung out in the choir. I hang out with like the band people. I hung out with like the science nerds. And I hung up with everyone. I was like, I'm going to learn how to connect with each human being and just listen to them and hear their needs and try to be friends with everyone. And that was the greatest thing that happened to me is like having no jock for ends anymore. And being like, I'm going to connect with everyone. Yeah, just understand people. Can we reverse engineer that? So like, you told me that story a couple of weeks ago. And I was like, yes, so there was research. I've always been fascinated by the popular kids, right? Like these these magnetic sort of like what makes a kid cool or popular, whatever that is. And Vanslone to really interesting research experiment with teenagers. And he found well, can you guess what makes the most popular kids popular? Like what is it could be anything from attractiveness to clothing to the way they talk? You get to guess. Listeners guest to what makes a popular person popular. Yes. Hmm. Their confidence. I don't know. They're outgoing. I would have guessed outgoing. That's exactly what I would have guessed. Like extroverted talkative, which was like, I was like, oh, please don't want to be that. So first of all, it wasn't attractiveness, which I think is very important for people to keep in mind. It wasn't the most beautiful girls or the hottest guys. What it was is the most popular kids also liked the most people. That makes sense. And like now that I heard that, which is exactly what you just said, suppose just five people they like, you know, right? So everyone. Yes, exactly. It's like what he found was is that the most popular kids when they were asked, who do you like? They had the longest list. And that also meant that they were liked by the most people. And this was measured by typically they smiled more in the hallways. So they would do the you tell me if this is right. So men when they know season when they know they give the upward. Hey, nice to see like it's like a acknowledgement versus if you don't know someone, but you want to acknowledge them, you give them the downward nod. Is that right? Probably. Yes. If you're conditioned that way, I try to just smile at everyone. Okay. So that's that's the good kids. No, because you like you train yourself to this. I just started smiling everyone in the hallways too. Like, hey, how are you? Like to see you just like a compliment or something without realizing it. And that's what I kind of read about in your chapter was like without realizing it, you were actually activating a scientific principle that we like people who like us. Makes sense. the biggest. I like people that hate you. No, or ignore you or. And this is the real killer of relationships. People do not think of it. We talk a lot about toxic people, right? Difficult people, toxic people. But actually the killer is ambivalence. You're not sure. Yeah. You're not sure. Do they like me? Do I like them? Yeah. We're we friendly. That actually takes up more mental energy than the toxic people. And they did a study with police officers where they found that police officers who have more ambivalent relationships versus police officers who had a lot of toxic relationships. The ambivalent ones actually had less efficiency, they had less happiness and career satisfaction, and they skip more days of work. That's because if you if someone's toxic, you know, you don't want to sit with them a lunch. Yeah. You don't want to stop by their desk. It's clear. And believe it, you're like, should I should I invite them to lunch? Right. Or no, say for like I'm sure. Right. And I think that that's the key word of safety. And so ambivalence, when you like someone, you clearly are like smiling, nodding. Hey, what's up? Good to see you. The person's like, I'm liked. And like that is the rate is filling up safety in the world. And so if you go to a conference, you have a big conference coming up. You're really nervous. I don't want you to think about being extroverted, especially if you're an introvert or an ambivert. No, like don't pretend ambivert. Yeah. It's it's I'm an ambivert. An ambivert is if introvert or extrovert never felt right to you. It's when you can flip into extroversion. If you need to or in the right situation. So like for me right now, I'm not that nervous, right? I'm a little bit nervous. Maybe a little bit nervous, but like not terribly. Sure. Like learning one on one situations conferences. I'm okay. Nightclubs, bars, those kinds of things. No. So if you are in those situations going to a conference, don't think about how can I be more extroverted? How can we be more outgoing? It's actually how can I just like more people? Like when I'm at a conference and I do this, you were at WDS. So I go every year and all of my trainers, my science people trainers come with me and I say like, our one thing is we are inviting everyone to sit with us. We are inviting everyone to come to lunch with us. If you see someone standing alone, we say hello. We invite them to come over. Like that is our number one goal. And so that's a easier way I think to tackle like big groups or conferences. Just how can you like more people? That's cool. Yeah. Smiling is a good practice anyways. Whenever I see someone on the streets, I just try to smile. Sometimes we were a little awkward about it. You're gonna react to me. See, I can't do that as a woman. I don't think that's true. Because you're like leading people on something or flirting or whatever. Yeah, it's challenging. I try to smile as much as I can, guys and girls. Yeah, I think you should. Also, I think smile is never going to hurt you. It might get you in a conversation that you didn't expect. But I think it's always a good, a good basic thing to try. Yes. We're gonna go into it later. I'm gonna hook you guys right now. We're gonna go on later to talk about how to understand when someone's lying. What to do about it. And this Vanessa said that this is like a scary thing to talk about. It's like she doesn't know if she wants to talk about that much. But we're gonna go into a little bit. But first, you have different sections in your book. It's the first five seconds, the first five hours and the first five days. First five minutes, first five hours, first five days. Minutes, hours, days. Yeah, it's not seconds. But the first five seconds were important to you. Actually, I debated calling it the first five seconds. It's true. Like that would work. But the reason why I didn't is because a couple of chapters are on like conversation charters and it's hard to get out of full conversation. Two seconds. Right, right. Yeah. But there are cues within the first five seconds. Yes. Right. Maybe maybe soon than that. I think that it happens the moment you first see someone within within a second within a second. And that has proven as well online. Like a lot of our first impressions are actually happening digitally. Right. Someone emails you for the first time. They Google you. They see you on LinkedIn. See a photo, whatever. That's it. That's your digital first impression. Everything matters and what you're putting out every angle, every smile or not. Smile. It can be like misread. I think if you think of it like an algorithm. Right. So like if you think of, okay, my LinkedIn profile is a piece of my information that I'm putting out there as well as like my email signature as well as my dating profile name. I should have you like breakdown everything that I do and just say no. Yes. What can I give you a really quick tip on dating profiles? Are you on dating profiles right now? I've got a girlfriend. Okay. So if anyone who's on anyone who's on dating profiles, not Louis. Yes. I'm not out anywhere. I never bid out. I was on Tinder for like three days because this is a year ago. It was. It was my friend. I'll take his, I want to say his name. He's pretty well known. I'll tell you how to wait. He was like, get on here. It's amazing. It's just an experiment. Just get on there. Right. So for three days, I do it. And I'm like, it's crazy. Right. It's like madness. It's addictive. It's white. I'm like, and then he was just like, okay, I had a bunch of matches or whatever. And I was like, this is just exhausting. Yeah. It's so exhausting. And I just deleted it after three days. I was like, you didn't even see anyone? No, I had a couple of text conversations with people that I'd never saw anyone. But here's the thing. I mean, I'm so like forward with like saying hi to someone if I like them. Yeah, but you don't single that I'm not like, I need to find someone to like match with me. It's not uncomfortable for me to like see anyone and stop them. Right. So hey, you know, you know, you don't have to optimize in that area. I don't have to because you don't need be intro. I don't need to. But I, you know, I had to learn how to do that because I could never do that. And I think I told you this when I was a 16, 17. I didn't have like, you know, the good looks that I don't have anything. And I was terrified of girls when I was high school. And so for a summer, I made it a mission. I said every single day, I think I was 15 going into junior year. Every single day, I was like, when every I see a girl that gives me butterflies, I have to go towards and talk to her. And then it was like, I have to go every day, every day I saw a girl for the whole summer was an experiment that I gave myself. I was kind of like a mini you. Yes. I was like, I need to overcome this fear. This is BS. Like I want to be able to talk to girls and not be afraid. And like, I always stumbled over my words. I just couldn't get anything out. Yeah. Yeah. Just terrified. Yeah. So I said every day, whenever I see a girl that I'm like, have butterflies, I'm going to go run to her. Not like literally. But I was like, I'm going to go up to her and just say hello. And then it was like ask her for her number. Then it was just like ask her out. It was like another challenge. And by the end of the summer, I was like fluent in the art of like asking girls to approach the. I was just like, the opener. And even if it didn't like work out or they were like, no, I was just like, at least we had like a fun interaction. And it was like, okay, you know, and I learned how to gain confidence through taking action and giving myself a challenge. Oh my gosh. So if anyone is listening and feels great, it's the greatest thing. That is like so. I one of the biggest challenges. I think we have to think about our life like a big experiment. Yes. And the problem is as adults, we did this a weird kids, right? Like you would play with something or you would, you would try something out. You would take a class just because you were curious. Now as adults were like, I can't, I can't try anything because what if it becomes forever or what if it's permanent or what if there's a risk? I think that every interaction is an experiment. And when you think about it that way, you become so much brief, right? You think, okay, I'm nervous about approaching that VIP or that girl or that guy or whoever. That butterflies, those butterflies are a chemical signal for me that there is something here. Right? Like there is an experiment that I can do it. And I should do it. So there's a couple of things when you're approaching. If you're, if this is something that you want to work on, whether it's a VIP or a stranger or a, it seems to be another. So there's a girl. A girl, right? There's the approach and the open. So the approach is actually very important because that's usually when someone's first impression is made. So when you're approaching someone, you want to signal a couple things. You want a first signal friend not foe. So friend, right? Like, I heard this last time. Yes, hands. That's perfect. First thing people look at is the hands. Yes, go, go, go, listen to that episode if you, if you didn't hear that. No, it's great. Yeah. The first thing. Keep your hands out of your pockets. Hands out of your pockets and hand first. If you want to do a handshake or a hug, eye contact. Great. Then there's the approach, the verbal, which we didn't get to talk about last time. So what people don't realize actually the verbal approach matters very little. And that is because in the first few seconds of interaction, there's a lot of chemical reading going on. There's a lot of decoding. The verbal becomes sort of secondary. Doesn't matter. That's why the, hey, how are you? Is one of the best openers you can do because it doesn't actually necessarily mean anything. Does it make brainpower? It doesn't make a lot of brainpower. The first question, however, is important. So I think how are you as a question, but after that, but is it really though? Like we never really, it's more like a good, right? So my, my approach is usually just, hey, my name is Vanessa. Yeah. Like, or hey, nice to meet you. So it's not even a question. Yeah. That first question though is when you want to have some kind of a spark. This is a way that you signaled to someone else. This interaction is going to be different, meaningful, interesting, unique. Fill in the blank. What your intention is for the social interaction. So you set up someone's response based on the kind of trigger that you ask. So for example, if you say, so what do you do? That'd be bored. You've signaled. Yeah, you've signaled autopilot. Yeah. I don't really want to think deeply about this. And I'm judging you on what you do, which might or might not be true. I would much prefer and I call these conversation sparkers. These are these very dopamine producing dopamine as like a pleasure chemical that gets people excited. And you can actually do this with the words you use. Have you ever talked about priming on the show? I don't know if I've ever heard you talk about it. Yeah. Like so priming was one of those things that I had never thought about this way, but the words you use signal things for other people. So for example, if you say exciting, the other person immediately looks for hits, not misses. So if you say to someone, what do you want to say excited about lately? Right. They're immediately in their brain going to search for anything in their life that hits that. If you say, hey, have you been busy Recently, they immediately then searched for hits for busy. So that's actually a very powerful thing to know because your words dictate everything including an emails right. If you're sending an email to someone saying hey we're meeting on Friday we're really crunched on time. I'm a little worried about getting everything done so hopefully we can make it all happen. It seems stressful. It's very you're actually queuing the person. To feel stress. To feel stress, worry and crunch it for time. Oh man, that sucks. It's like anxiety like I gotta do this now. And you are you were in control of it like you're creating it. Whereas if you look at your emails you're like what am I priming with this email? Like what am I asking them to search for in their brain? I'm so excited to meet with you on Friday. I can't wait to talk about all the topics we're gonna go through. I know that we're gonna be super efficient. That is excited. Yeah and like boom boom like you're gonna try to get through each thing on your list. So that same thing happens with that initial kind of big spark or so. Hey I'm Vanessa. Good to meet you. Hopefully not how are you because it's not a real question. And then working on anything exciting recently going on any big vacations. Hey do you love this wine? This wine is pretty good huh? Those are all ways that you're signaling queuing what kind of interaction you want to have. And that sets yourself up for success. Yeah. Interesting. So those are the few questions you would ask. Those are exciting. Exciting vacations. Vacation. And then what I call context cues. So whatever you're doing in the moment like this cool. You're like God is in this restaurant great. Wasn't that speaker awesome? Hey how's the wine? Did you get any drinks? Right? So you'll never run out of things to talk about if you're looking for context cues. Sure. Sure. Right like I could even I could even be like wow three cameras Lewis impressive. Yeah. Okay now we're talking about camera. It's actually four but you missed it. Where? Oh over there. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm impressed. You just activated my mind to feel like you like me and that you're impressed with me. Now I feel good and at ease. Okay cool. Yeah. So that's how it kind of works. Welcome back to. Sure. Get it delivered. Contestant. You're out of food and your meds but are too tired to get up to you. A. Pout. B. Bag your roommate or C. Same day. Who knew? I'm gonna go with C. Walmart. That is correct. Walmart after same day delivery for prescriptions. Chris reason more. Walmart. Who knew? Subject to availability restrictions. Medication exclusions and fees apply. Not every sale happens at the register before AT&T business wireless checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people say during an awkward silence. That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sale or two. Sometimes AT&T business wireless connecting changes everything. One of the questions I like as well is what are you most grateful for? Maybe it's not the first one but it's I like to keep it one of the first few. And maybe that's wrong. I don't know. No, I love it. I mean you're a you're triggering gratitude. You're triggering gratitude and you're setting an intention of like I don't want to talk about surface. Exactly. Right. And by the way it goes the other way too. Like if you're with someone who like you're not comfortable with or you're ambivalent about or you don't want to build a deep relationship you want to avoid those kind of personal topics because you're not safe yet. And that's also a really important internal trigger. There's some. Did I tell you about the skydiver study when we talked last time? Probably. Oh my gosh. This is like one of my favorite new studies. So what they did is the thing happened to be New York City. It was a New York City and I was walking by myself after a dinner party into the subway. New York City is like not like I love New York but like at night by yourself. It's like so I was like kind of already nervous and I walk into the subway walk on the car and like immediately I feel fear. Like you know that feeling you get like in the pit of your stomach where you're like and like I could feel the hairs in the back of my neck stand up and I was like what is it? What is it? What is it? I'm like looking around the car and everything looks fine. And right before the doors close a guy saying right next to me grabs the purse of the woman sitting a little woman sitting and runs out the doors. Now thank God people stopped him like within five minutes like within five seconds of him getting off of the car got the purse back. But I was like how did I know? How did I? So I was like I don't think I'm psychic. So there's what else going on here? So there was a study that was done where they had first time skydivers. Hmm. Before they went up in the air, run on the treadmill. They ran on the treadmill enough to get them real sweaty and they had them more sweat pads to absorb their sweat. They took those sweat pads out. They put them in a new sweat suit and then they had them jump out of a plane. Took those sweat pads obviously get a little sweaty when you're jumping out of a plane. Sure. Then they had participants smell these sweat pads. I know it's kind of great. See which one was fear or which one's excitement or what? They didn't even tell them what they were smelling. They put them in a brain scanner and they had them smell each one and these people had no idea what was being tested. They didn't even know they were smelling sweat. Right. Right. When the people smelled the sweat pad that was used when they jumped, the person's fear part of their brain activated. In other words, when we feel fear or anxiety, we actually produce a fear chemical. This study kind of blew my mind because it means two things. One is that three things actually. One we produce, there's a physical response to the emotion that we feel in a chemical or a pheromone second. Other people pick that up and third, not only do we pick it up, we actually mirror it. We catch it like a contagion. Which means that if you, if on that train, I clearly smelled his adrenaline or his fear and it made me very scared. Even though it only happened two seconds later, I could feel that something was about to happen. So when you show up to an event, feeling either really anxious or really nervous. You're going to create that on the people. Yes. People are going to catch it from you. Which is why I do not believe in the phrase fake it till you make it. I don't think that that works. I think that what's much better is figuring out where you naturally rise to the occasion where you already feel strong and confident because I would much rather infect excitement, then infect anxiety. So we are, we have a lot of power in our social interactions. The cues that people catch from us can literally physically not only change our conversation, but change the shape of their entire day. And so I think that that's where we're talking about here is not just like, oh, make fun conversation in smile war. It's like, no, you can actually change someone's entire being. You can change their physiology. Yeah. But you've got to have the energy to show up in a certain way. Yeah. And it also shows up in the body differently. There was a really interesting set of studies that looked at how we feel emotion. And they found that anger, for example, you have a lot of activity in the chest and the face and in the hands. Like they're like bright, they get bright red because usually we feel that heat in our chest. We're usually yelling if we're angry. And then we might get into a fist fight. Whereas depression or sadness, we lose activity over our entire body. It's why people who are very sad or depressed want to be in bed, want to be forced on. They have literally less activity in their limbs. So there's a lot going on that I think we still, it's very exciting. We have a lot left to learn about people. But I think that even what we know so far, there's a lot we can do with it. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Tell me about PQ. Yeah. What is PQ? interpersonal intelligence. And I love this because once you're going to tell us what that is in a second, but you have a test in the first chapter, which tells you how your personality, what is it? Your interpersonal, your level, your interpersonal interpersonal intelligence level. Yes. Got you. How socially like adaptive you are, essentially. Yes. So I love quizzes. I can't help that. I love quizzes. Sure. It's my I love checklists and all those to-do boxes things. So I was very focused on IQ, right? Like growing up, like book smarts, technical skills. I never heard about PQ. I never heard about social or emotional intelligence. So there's all these IQ tests and things like that. But I found that what a really good way to start is like where are where is your smarts? Right? Like socially, what are your social strengths? Like we even have like strengths finder 2.0. I'm working on something right now where I want to do like social strengths 2.0. Like like what are our social strengths, which are just as important as some of our capabilities. And so the quiz is sort of like, okay, where are you at right now? Right? Like how good are you decoding? So we're talking about social intelligence. There's really two things we're talking about decoding. So spotting cues, spotting hidden emotions, decoding lies, and encoding. Encoding are the signals that you send out to others. Yeah. So we're trying to kind of testing both sides about. Got it. Got it. And I read that people with a higher EQ or PQ also make more than people. 29,000 dollars more per year according to this research. Then someone with a high IQ or lower. What's lower lower EQ? Lower EQ. So higher EQ, you're going to make more. That's right. 90% of the time. That's right. And that's because we are interacting with people in ways that we don't even quantify or realize, right? Like every time you send an email, like that email has to be received, processed. There's a difference between having someone respond to it right away and having it sit in their inbox for five days. Yeah. Right? The go sheeting, interviewing, around the water cooler, people still have water coolers. They're off. Right? Like I and my team is all virtual and I still am using that PQ every day all day. I want to exercise that sometimes I think about you can do this if you're listening is in the course of a day. Make a note of every single interpersonal reaction that you have. It will shock you how many of those there are and how big of an impact they have. Right? Like well, even if it's just like a casual coffee, all the possibilities could come out of that interaction. And then so you make one column where you market all the interactions you have. The second column is if that interaction went as good as it could possibly go. what magic could happen for you. - So much. - So much. - But instead, a lot of our interactions are like, "Mmm." - Average, so you get average results. - Exactly. - And when you, you know, I'm thinking about it, I'm probably like, I have hundreds of these interactions. - Yes. - They potentially, especially the social media and emails and in person, if you're at events, like yesterday I was at Oprah's event, Super Soul Session, and there was like, you know, thousands of people, but I met a lot of people. - Yeah. - Even for like 10 seconds, I met people. - Yeah. - And I remember there are a number of people, even I just met and gave them a hug. Like they always left a comment like, "Man, you give really good hugs." - Yes. - As opposed to just like, "Oh, nice to meet you off." Like they always said something. - Yeah. - That was like a positive reinforcement. And for me, it's like, maybe the next time, and maybe months when I see them, but they were, "Member, I gave them a good hug." - Absolutely, so that was, you took something in the interaction, even in 10 seconds, and you made it above average. - Yes. - So my-- - I have awkward long hugs. I try not to make them awkward, but I try to break them like-- - You have a good long time. - Like super awkward, like get off me, but like just a little extra second. - I love that. - Like right when they start to pull away, I squeeze. - You're like, "I squeeze a little bit more." They're like, "Oh, okay." - Yes. - My awkward too. - Yes. - Sometimes it goes bad, but most of the time it's worse. - I mean, I have a theory that you should greet everyone like they're an old friend. - That's good. Yes. That's what I do. - Can't hug. - That's what I do. - Because if you have that mentality, same with an email, you give so much more, like excitement, whatever. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I haven't seen this for three years. How would you greet them?" That is the way that I think-- - Like, "Oh, I'm not screaming after that." - Right, like that's the girl screamer. - Right, two girls get together and like, I'm really-- - Yeah, it's really cool. - I told you, like the volume would go up on one side, got excited. - No, you get it. - Yeah, 'cause like we scream, we go up. And what I was gonna say also about that, which is really very smart, is it doesn't need to be a five minute interaction. It can be 10 seconds. A lot of the time we focus on productivity. You know, we focus on efficiency, we focus on maximizing our business revenue. All those things are great, but like if we focus on some of the social aspects of that, it makes it so much easier. Like let's not just optimize our IQ, our business acumen, let's also optimize our social acumen, because you make that list of every interaction you have and all the good things that could happen, if it went really well, it's magic and I'm re-earing it. - Magic, yeah. - And, oh gosh, I love this stuff. 'Cause I feel like this has really been kind of the key to my results in my business life, because I would probably have, if I took an IQ test, I probably wouldn't even, I don't know, I even know what this rankings are. I don't even know what the lowest is. I'd probably get the bottom. And so for me, it's like, I just feel like I stack and stack and stack. So much good PQ, is that right? - Yeah, yeah. - EQ, PQ. - Exactly right. - SQ, whatever you're calling it, social. Yeah, and I feel like people care more about how you make them feel, as opposed to how smart you are or whatever. - And that quote, that famous quote, I think it's by my angel, you know what I mean. - People don't care how much you know, and so they know what you care as one quote. - Yes, and then people remember. - Remember what you say, but they remember the way you made them feel. - Oh God quote. - Quote. - Those are my two favorite quotes. - Yes, so I saw that quote, that second quote, what I just explained with the skydivers, that is the scientific reason behind that quote. So in the book, I talk about these quotes, we share share all the time. Like the Dale Carnegie, how to, you know, be interested to be interesting. Like what is the science behind that? - Yeah, not just like, oh, that's a cool philosophy. - Because now that my angel, Luke, you actually could think to yourself, what emotion do I want to infect today? Right, like is it gratitude? Is it excitement? Is it fulfillment? And like by the way, this doesn't mean that you cannot be vulnerable. This doesn't mean you can't have a bad day. This doesn't mean that you can't go into a meeting and be like, I'm so sorry, like I am feeling really down. In fact, I have those days we all do. I regularly do not cancel meetings on those days. I feel that I would rather go in and say, listen, like, I am just overwhelmed. - I'm just overwhelmed. - Yeah, like I'm overwhelmed. I'm sorry for that. Because I also want to catch theirs. Right, it's not just a one way street. We don't just infect. I also like to be infected by others. And so I feel like, and not every time this has worked, but a lot of the time it works, when I come to someone and I'm like, I am so stressed about this book launch. Right, like I am terrified. Like recently, fully honest, I am in so much fear. - Really? Why? - Oh my God. I am so-- - The book? - Yes. - Why? - What are you afraid of? - Everything. - I'm afraid that-- - What, what's worse? - People aren't gonna like it. I'm afraid that people are gonna be like, you're not a real expert. You're an awkward person. How could you write a book? I'm like afraid that it's gonna get out there and be misused or misrepresented. I'm afraid that I put all this energy into launching, you know, launching is such a big thing. And it's gonna fail. - What's failing? - For me, it would be no one reading it. - Okay, well, let's talk about it. I've already read it, so-- - I mean, you, you succeed it. - You have to read it. You succeed it. - You suppose myself under your podcast, you have to read it. - My production manager read it. - You have to do people. - Because the people are gonna read it because it's powerful, and it's what people need. If they wanna give results in their life, if you wanna make more money, if you wanna have better relationships, if you wanna not be in pain and suffering, then you need to get a book. - I wrote it for me, I wrote it for them. So I think that going in with these fears is not necessarily a bad thing because then I can say, please, infection with calm. Right, like you are so calm and so confident that that made me feel better, right? You're like, what do you, what do you mean? It's gonna be great. I know what this book is. I'm like, right, like if Lewis knows it, okay, Lewis knows it, right? - You should also have proof. Your blog does well, your courses do well, and this is like an enhancement of those. - I mean, you know, we can talk about business models if you want. It was an interesting platform change for me because my platform is B2B and B2C. I've never had a book piece in a platform. - Yep. - So it was an interesting addition to add in a book piece, which you know, not just online courses. - Yeah, it's a new platform play, and I'm excited about it, but it's different. I've never done it before. - It's gonna bring you a lot more opportunities. - I hope so. - Yeah, it will. - I hope so. People always ask, should I write a book, and I've self-published it, I'm traditionally published, and that's like a totally different, they're totally different bags. Those two buckets. - Yeah, what was this publisher again? - Ping-Lin Random House portfolio. - That's great. - And they're fantastic. - Yeah, you're gonna be fine. (laughs) - You're gonna be fine. - I'm like, you're cold. - I'm like, I'm like, you're cold. - Wait, can I tell you something though? - Sure. - Okay. So, neuroticism. I'm a high neurotic, and I, people are always like neurotic. It's such a bad word, but neurotic is a way, it's a way of talking about emotional stability. You are, I think, low neurotic, yes? You're not very neurotic. You're very emotionally stable. - I can have triggered moments that make me frustrated. - Yes. - Yeah, but I think I'm pretty emotionally stable. - Okay. - But I like things the way I like them. - Oh. - And so, and it's not the way I like it, I, you know. - Okay. - I get frustrated, but. - So that's about the ritual, the habit, the setting, things up. So, as a low neurotic, you told me it will be fine. - Yes. - Now, for my high neurotic listening, you might know who you are. When people tell you it will be fine, it actually makes you more nervous. - Really? - Yes. - You know what, it's not gonna be fine. You need to work harder. You're screwed. - No. - You're gonna fail. - Okay, so, that's what I should say. - So like, when, I know this sounds crazy, but so neuroticism is one of the five personality traits. And it is actually, it's genetic. And what I mean by that is, so how we look at neuroticism is by the serotonin transporgine. I promise this won't get too scientific, but this made me feel a lot of relief when I read this. So serotonin is a very, very lovely little chemical that makes us feel calm. It calms us down. Yes, if we almost get hurt and we're like, "Oh, then serotonin is what floods are about "and to say you're okay, everything will be fine." Serotonin, its mantra is everything will be fine. - Right. - High neurotics carry a special form of the serotonin transporgine, which means they do not produce as much serotonin and it goes more slow. - It's just more than a lot of it. - Exactly. - Because when I have something bad that happens to me, it takes me longer to calm down than you. - So, it depends on the thing. - Totally depends on the thing. - On the trigger. - Exactly. - If I feel like I'm just gonna tack or something or if I'm like, something has been questioned about me or something or someone did something to me wrong, I feel like wronged, then sometimes it could be weeks that I hold onto it. - Oh, interesting. - It depends on the thing, but other things, somebody like, "Oh, whatever, "if someone's like flipping me off in the street "or something or in the driving, "but I'm like, all right, onto the next." So that, my friend is a resource language thing. So that means that you have a resource language of status, which means that if someone has challenged you that there's a respect issue, there was a wronging, there was a disloyalty there, your value was taken from you in terms of resources. So there's six resources, status information, money, goods, services, and love. We all have need all these resources, but we typically want the resource, we did not get in our childhood. - Exactly. - Absolutely. - I mean, I was sexually abused, so for me, when I feel like anyone's taking advantage of me, or, yeah, exactly. - Absolutely, right. - So I understand it. - Yes, and it threatens you. So when you talk about neuroticism, someone who cannot self-call as much, they are more anxious because they know it will affect them for longer, right? - Become more anxious, yeah. - Right, so that is-- - That's just affecting me, huh? - So I hire people who will worry for me, like I literally don't have official worries on my team, but my lovely team, like I will say, Danielle, can you just worry about-- - Don't worry about this, yeah. - It's a smart thing. - Because I know that if she's worrying about it, I don't have to. - Yeah. - So you'll notice that in relationships, partnerships with colleagues, you have to be able to ask for your resource theory. You have to be able to ask for things that will keep you calm. - Can you take care of this for me? Can you handle this for me? - Exactly, and what your trigger points are. So for a hynerotic, it might be emotional stability, like worry or anxiety and having someone else share that worry with you makes you feel better. So in a typical male-female relationship, typical, and this is not everyone. - Generalized. - Generalized, the woman is the warrior, the man is not the warrior, not always, but sometimes. So for example, in my relationship, my husband is the rock, right? So I'm really worried about something and he'll be like, it'll all be fine, babe. - That makes you even more worried. - Yes. Because I want to know that I'm not the only one worrying. - So what if you say this, you know what, don't worry about it, I'll handle it. - Okay, now we're getting better. - Okay. - Then you can say, he's gonna take care of it. - Ooh, I like that, especially if he's actually-- - And you can let go of it? - Yeah, I get on the way up quicker. Right, here would be the ultimate. - I got this, here I'll show you, go do something else. - Oh, see that, that would be magic. Right, if he was like-- - He's not gonna do that. - Now he does do that. - Yeah, 'cause he really can't do what you need. - Right, so he'll say, like I'll be worried about, I don't know, I don't know, like planning something for an in-law trip or something like that, right? And he'll be like, babe, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna book the flights, I'm gonna let my mom know about our timing, we're gonna make sure that we have early reservations, and we're gonna make sure that all these things are taken care of. - You're packed in week in advance, yeah. - Yes, yes, yes, I'm the packer, actually. - All right, I got it. - I pack as he does the job. - Sure, sure. - Right, so like that, like I think that when we talk about how we're wired, it helps us not want to change the person we're with. So the biggest mistake, especially when we're talking about personality or research language, is we hope that we can make someone better. The problem is that we are wired in a certain way. 35 to 55% of our personality is genetic. The rest is shaped in early childhood. So yes, while we do have some ability to change our personality that's called free-treat theory, you can optimize parts of your personality to achieve your goals. - Yeah, and you can be aware of it and so you can move out of a chapter. - 100%. - It is much better to figure out how can I work with my partner, colleague, friends, resource language, need or personality in a better way. So for example, one of the personality traits is openness. So openness is like adventure, adventure, adventurous creativity, new ideas. People who are high open always want to try new restaurants. They want to go to new places. They're always trying new ways of doing things in their business. They're the boss that's like, let's try this. Let's try that, let's do this. Low open people love habit and tradition and routine. They love having things set up the same way every time. They like to honor that routine. It makes them feel whole and one. So if you have people in our relationship where someone's high open-- - The opposite, you're like, yeah. Constantly stressed. - You don't have to be. You're constantly stressed. It would be better to be like, for the high open person to be like, hey, it's really important to me to be adventurous with food. Trying new restaurants is a thing. Is that okay with you? I'm totally okay with having the morning routine be the same, having our grocery shopping be the same. - Smart. - But on this area, that makes me feel a lot-- - You're gonna say we need to go on some more different. - Exactly. Or do I need to have a friend who's my adventurous eater? - Right. - That's like a, I think something that we don't always negotiate in that way. And as soon as you have the language, it makes it a non-hot button issue. So instead of, I wanna try a new place. You always wanna try a new place. That's a hot button issue, right? Versus, hey, like Thursdays are our night out night. Are you open to trying somewhere new or should I? Call my friend, George. Right, like that's a very different kind of conversation. And my goal is not to get rid of your fights, is to make them discussions. - Yeah, not fights. - Right. - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) - So you said you wanted to talk about something in the beginning about personalities. - I did. - What is this specifically? - Yes, so. (laughs) You're like, I don't know about this stuff. - We'll see it. - So when we talk about science and personality, there's a lot of things out there, disc and anyagram and my ears, brigs and all these things. The only one that is scientifically based is the Big Five. And it's five personality traits. - It's the five lovely, I'm just. - We talk about the five level languages, actually. That's a good one too. So there's like special five, five level languages in the five, Big Five. - Yes, I know that's not scientific, the level languages. - Actually, that means. - Although it seems. - There is some science. - Very practical. - There is some science behind it. Yeah, there is. And the Big Five has a lot. - Okay. - And so everyone has these Big Five personality traits and they're either high or low in them. - It's one or the other. - It's high low. It's now middle. - There is middle. It is a spectrum. - And so this is the biggest difference between like Myers-Briggs that like labels you like an extrovert or introvert. Like a lot of people like really struggle with that. - Well, I'm kind of both, or I'm in the middle. - Exactly. So it's all every trait is a spectrum. And like we have like a nice spectrum and you kind of place yourself on it. A lot of these personality traits are not our choice. So that is why I brought up the serotonin thing for neuroticism. The greatest understanding that we can have about ourselves is to know that our reactions, our emotional reactions, are part of how we are wired. So a lot of the times like you feel guilty or jealous or all these dirty emotions, right? The negative emotions that we don't like to feel. And then we judge ourselves for them. - Yes. - Like, oh, I'm so not gracious right now. I'm so not feeling my gratitude for saying it. But actually your optimism or your negativity is wired within you. So you're better off trying to figure out what are my triggers, how my natural ed and how can I optimize that. So we talked about openness, right? Figuring out how you can balance routine versus something new. Talked a little bit about neuroticism. The other one that I wanted to bring up was conscientiousness. So conscientiousness in a relationship, studies have found that this is the biggest one that if you have a difference in your partner's conscientiousness, you have the most relationship problems. - So if you are? - So if you are different than your partner's conscientiousness, scientifically speaking, you're more likely to have more relationship problems. - Okay. - So conscientiousness. - Yeah, conscientiousness is how you approach detail. So high conscientious people, this would be me. We love to do this. - Details, everything. - Details, alphabetizing, steps, routine. Like we love like lots of things. - And your partner is like, I could care less about it. And it's like, Lucy Goosey, but hey, you know, we'll get it to it someday. - Low conscientiousness is exactly what you just said. Big ideas, strategy. Doesn't want to get bogged down in the details. This is you, right? - That's not me. I like the detail, but I just see where you're going to go. - That's what I'm saying. - Right, and so what happens is, is you have people who are like, "Hey, let's plan a vacation. I have a color coded spreadsheet with all the different possible locations and put out approximate weather in those locations." And then you have the low conscientious person who's like, let's just fly to a place and figure out when we get there. - Yeah. - Like a lot. - I like that too. - So I think you're the thing. - I think I'm in the middle, here's the thing, 'cause I love big ideas and I love strategizing about them. But I know as an athlete, you've got to execute on a daily basis if you want to make them happen. Ooh, that's a different thing what you just said there. Okay, so listen. - So here's what I do now. It didn't tell me what you're going to say. - Okay. - So I come up with the ideas and then, I hire the people who are very detailed and say, "Run with it." So I can come up with more big ideas and then bring them back to you and say, "Now we're going to do this. Now run with that." So I hire people with those strengths to work with me on that. - The way that, I don't know if you guys heard what Louis just said, which is, that is so free trade theory. So what you said is, basically, I optimize. I know that details are important as an athlete. I know that details are important in my business. So either I work those details out in a workout routine or I hire those people. So that is a great example of how you can take what you naturally are and then free trade that are optimized it so that you leverage it up. So I would say that you're probably medium low. But you know how to turn it up in the area is that it's needed, which is probably one of the risk for your social success. - It depends to you as an athlete. I couldn't hire anyone to do the work for me. It was like I had to train all day. I had to do the research. I was constantly studying game film, I was practicing, I was doing everything myself. So I had to-- - Yeah, I can't export it. - Yeah, you got to do yourself as an athlete. So I understood it, but now that I have more resources and different part of my life, I can optimize the thing that I like doing the most. - And I think that that is the key to happiness. Right? I did a whole two year study on happiness. And we can get into if you'd like to-- - You've read a book about it? - I didn't yet. (laughing) I don't like Gorsh on it, but I didn't read it about that yet. And I wrote it from the place of like, I am also not a naturally like a happy person. Like I am a worried-- - No worries, yeah. - And so like I really have to work at it. - Yeah. - And what I learned was is that it's actually not the big things that make you happy. It's the little things, including-- - If they cut a coffee, you're gonna get later as a treat. - Yeah, like the smell of the coffee, like the amazing juice that creation, whatever, right? Like all the smoothness of it, by the way, everyone I went to creation with Lewis. - Yes. - And you downed your juice faster than I could drink. - That was true. - It was impressive. I was like, where did it go? It was magic. - Yeah. - So yeah, so saving those things, and also those moments where you have optimized your natural personality instead of changing it. That is where happiness comes from. When you can say, I'm a big idea person. I love creativity. I love strategizing. I love big ideas and big pictures. Getting to bog down the details is necessary, but I don't like it. So therefore, I'm going to find a way to either outsource it or minimize it so I can focus on those things. That feeling of capability, that feeling of control, is incredibly happiness- - It's amazing. - Making. - Control is a very happy making emotion. It's, you know, we think about happiness as like pleasure and joy and ecstasy, but actually, you know, the words for happiness are control capability. - Like feeling like you're in control, right? If not like controlling people or something, but feeling like you're in control of your results or your life. - Yes, and one example of this that I like thinking about is there's this thing called the Tetris Effect. I don't know if you've ever heard of this. So these researchers had students. Touchers of it. They said the touchers, I was like, touchers of it. Touchers of it. Touchers of it. Touchers of it. But I like that one too. That's very happy making me. Touching your effect is good too. That's good too. Yes, we can hand hug later. Hand hug. Yeah. Yeah, so this is not as fun as the Tetris effect. Yes. So what researchers did, this was not a study on happiness. They brought research, they brought students in, they had them play Tetris for like four hours. Sounds fun. I played Tetris in probably 20 years, but I used to love four games all the time. It is a different, yeah. So they were testing something about the brain. And an unexpected result of this study, is that students left the lab and were literally seeing their entire life like a Tetris board. They wanted to rearrange their furniture like Tetris. They wanted to like stand in line like Tetris. They wanted to reorganize their shelving like Tetris. And they realized it in a weird way, they had primed the brain to think in a Tetris like Prattern. So what happens is, is typically humans have a negativity bias. We are trained to see the negative things in the world, the bad things. This is a survival mechanism, right? As cavemen, we had to go, "Hmm, it might rain, I better get ahead." I should really forge for the winter. Right. We are trained to see all the problems and potential things that could go wrong so we could prepare ourselves. So our bias, our training is negative, negative, negative. We open our email and go, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? We walk into a room and we're like, who don't I know, why don't I belong? Not saying everyone has this, but there's certain extremes. I think that we can retrain our brain just like the Tetris effect to see in happiness patterns. So instead of walking into a room and being like, "Oh, I don't belong, I don't know anyone." Thinking about, why do I belong? Who can I know? That's a very different kind of framework to see the world. And so I think that that's about control, right? That's bringing control into a negative mindset and flipping it. Sure. So that it's not necessarily positive, you just know where your frame is coming from. Yeah, yeah, okay. Control. What was the other thing? Control, capability and optimization. That's the key to happiness. Those three things are, I think, are the key to happiness, yes. Well, okay, cool. And I think that they're under, underappreciated. I got it, got it. Especially with capability. Okay. So where else did I get a soft track? I think I got a soft track. I got like down the happiness. You were going to say, we were talking about personality, something, right? Yes. So the last thing I was going to say was with conscientiousness is thinking about if your partner is a big idea person, or a detail person, same with your partner. Well, yeah, you said the most conflict of the series. It's the most conflicts where you have, why didn't you clean up? I did clean up. This isn't clean. The way I want to. Yeah. So you got a year in your partner, your husband, you guys complete opposites and that's based on that, or you-- He is much lower conscientious than I am. So how does that work? So we figured it out. So for example, we figured out what needs to be changed and what doesn't. Like, for example, I like an organized software. My husband doesn't care if he's wearing whatever on his feet, right? So we have-- for many months of being like, did you get your socks? Did you fold your socks or socks are everywhere? I was like, you know what? That is his drawer. We do not share a drawer any longer. He has his side of the closet. That's what he wants. He buys it. So instead of trying to change him and teach him how to have a better software, I was like, no, that's a waste of both of our-- it's not real to who we are. I'd rather have us optimize and say, that's his, this is mine. That's a really small example, a very concrete example, but there's bigger ones as well. For example, if you are talking about a friendship or how you want to raise children, someone who is high conscientious is going to want to break down all the details and plan for every eventuality, or someone who's a big picture person is going to be like, let's meet the kid and let's see what we think. And those can be major value differences. So instead of getting angry, then we're trying to convince them to be more like you, big idea, or detailed. The better conversation is, why don't you want to pre-plan? Or why do you think that going by the seat of your pants is better? Like, where is the value there? How can we pick this based on actual strength and not how we're wired? So then it's a very different kind of conversation to have. So the three things, the ones I would focus on is how organized someone is, how big of an open, adventurous someone is, and how much of a warrior someone is. And it's OK if they're opposite on both those. Totally OK. On all those things with you, but you just have to figure out how to optimize them. And by the way, if you're single, I think that one of the things to think about is what is your ideal personality match? And this is a crazy way to think about dating. Most people are like, they don't think about this. But I think that if you're dating-- It's a lot of stress comes from. A lot. A lot of pain and suffering and a relationship comes from you. Yes. And I think that a really fun-- maybe this is me, this is my idea of fun-- I think a really fun conversation you can have in the beginning of a relationship. The first few dates is like-- so I read this book or I listen to this podcast on personality. Are you a big idea of personality, tell person? Are you a morning person or your night person? Those kind of conversations early are so much better than when they normally come out, which is on the first fight. As opposed to just having this chemical attraction and being like, oh, we love each other. And it's like-- We'll figure it all out. We'll get constantly-- Right. And remember that people will free trade that they'll optimize during the lust phase. So you don't actually know much. Yeah. This happened to me recently. I hired a developer. And in his interview process, he came across his very high conscientious. He sent phases, sent the proposal. It was like, great. This is wonderful, because I work well other high conscientious people. But he optimized for me during the interview process, because I did not-- Of course. But it's best for-- Of course. So I didn't ask the right questions, which should have been. So over the course of this eight-month project, how do you like to work? Are you a weekly check-in kind of a person? Are you-- I kind of like a check-in once in a while. And then I would have immediately found out. Oh, it's not good fit. And then I would have been like, shoot. He's a kind of do it as you do it kind of guy. But I didn't know to ask those questions. So I think in the beginning of all relationships, the best thing we can do is don't let the lust overcome us. Right? So tough and personal relationships and business relationships all day. And I've seen in dating profiles. People will put their MBTI in dating profiles sometimes. MBTI? The Myers-Briggs, like Ian F.J. or Ian F.J. In dating profiles? I've seen it. I have seen it in dating profiles. That's for that stuff. I've seen it. I always-- someone always tells me what I am when I forget it. I can't remember. Ian F.J. I think so, maybe. Yeah, maybe. But Myers-Briggs, remember, is not scientifically based. Because it-- because also we do change over time slightly. And it's hard if you have one label. Like if you're just E, it gives you very little wiggle. Yeah, yeah. I don't like that. There's another personality test with four quadrants. Have you seen this? Disc. Is that what it is? It's promoter, supporter, analyzer, controller. Yes. Have you seen that? I think that that's this. But I've seen that one, yes. Promoter, supporter, analyzer, controller. And you kind of like-- you rank-- you go through a quiz of figuring out which quadrant you're the highest at. So you'd be-- you know, I'm a promoter, controller. First of a promoter, I'm like a big idea. I'm passionate. I'm like excited. Let's go. Let's do this. I like to be in control. I like to have all those things. And then it's support, analyze. It's kind of like the top four. But really, I'm like very close to almost all of them. Like all of them are pretty high. So I'm almost like very spread out. And like the true leaders, I hear as what they say, is like you want to be able to tap into each quadrant to connect to an analyzer. If they're an analyzer, you want to be able to be analytical with them. If they're a promoter, you want to be promoting with them. If they're supportive, you want to be in support with them. Yeah. So you're always meeting someone where they're at, not trying to have them meet you or you're at. So it's a flexible leadership style. Flexible leadership. And it's the same thing with emotional intelligence. This is emotional intelligence. Yeah. And it's the exact same thing with that. And also like expressiveness. Yes. For example, like from a nonverbal perspective, if someone shows up and they're like super bubbly and super excited and the other person's like kind of calm. No. It's a mismatch. You got to meet them where they're at. Yeah. You get a little bit ahead and you know, try to get them to that space. But I think that matching and mirroring is an interesting way to think about interactions, especially like phone calls. We're doing a bunch of research right now on vocal power. And which you think about vocal power probably all the time because a lot of people are listening. So what we found was, well, there's an interesting anchor study here where they looked at doctors. And they found that doctors who record 10-second voice tone clips. So hello, my name is Dr. Edwards. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. And I specialize in oncology, something like that. They took those clips and they warbled the words. So you couldn't understand the words that were being said. So it was, they asked people to rate those clips on intelligence warmth competence. And imagine this for a second. You hear a clip of gobbledygook. Like, how can you rate it? Yeah, yeah. How could you, but people do. They found that the doctors who got rated the lowest in intelligence and warmth also had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits. Yeah. Just based on confidence and voice. Somehow, we don't sue people. We don't sue doctors based on their actual skills. We sue doctors based on our perception of their skills. So in your voice, how they show up, how they sound, it does not have to be the verbal. Remember how at the very beginning I was like, whatever you say in those first few seconds is actually not as important as what you're showing up as. We even catch that on the phone. So your vocal power, how you say hello. And like what's interesting is the biggest mistake people may-- Hello. Hello, my gosh. Hello. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tone, cadence, and pitch. Also, another one is people will hold their breath. Well, they answer. So they go, hello. That's the highest end of my vocal range. I'm working very hard right now to keep my vocal range in the lowest possible range. Because I'm much more calm and relaxed. And I'm going to stress out that. Better resonance. Yeah. Better resonance point. So if you hear yourself, And you hear yourself going a little bit higher in your range. It's not good. The best thing you can do is actually speak on the out breath. So if you hear the difference, so I'm going to make myself go tense. So if I get really excited and I tense my vocal cord, I sound a little bit nervous, a little bit more like a child. Now if I speak on the out breath, it forces the words out. It relaxes my vocal cords and it makes me sound more resonant. So the best thing you can do is actually answer on the out breath. So not hello versus hello. A very, very different. All these careers I can do. It's funny. My brother told me that he read some science project or something where research on when he's on the phone, he smiles when he's like saying goodbye. He's like smiling in the last like 30 seconds and he says people can feel that on the other side. Yes. Okay. So he has that as absolute right. There are 16 different kinds of smiles that can be detected from voice tone alone. Wow. 16 different kinds of smiles. What's interesting is we're on our vocal study that we're doing right now. We haven't published this research yet, but it's super interesting. We found it preliminary results. We had the same people record hello with different body language expressions. Hello. Exactly. We can do it right now. Let's try and see if you can guess what we're doing. We're like, let's do like this one. Hello. Hello. Right versus. Hello. Hello. Right. So like that's low power versus high power. Right. It's like it's supposed to change our voice. Now we make them do it for a little bit longer because it's very quick. And we also have the new micro expressions. So happiness micro expression anger micro expression was when you pull your eyebrows together. Harden your lips versus sadness micro expressions. That's when you pinch your inner corners together. Yep. And we had them record. Hello. Wow. And then we had people in our lab or participants and you can go play if you want. Listen to these clips and rate them on warmth, competence and charisma. The same person will get totally different ratings based on how they are holding their face and their body. So how you hold yourself on the phone matters. This is the same thing we're talking about earlier, which is like what do you want to infect? Right. If you answer the phone, sad and anxious and distracted. Not only do people perceive you as sad and anxious, they catch those emotions too. So what's the best thing people should do before they answer the phone? Out breath. So not holding your breath in. So like if you can take one or two deep breaths before you answer, it will relax your vocal chord. Right. So you're like picking it up. Who is it? Yeah. A couple of deep breaths and then hello. So that's the first thing you could do it. Relaxes your vocal chords. Should you say hello or if it's a friend, you're like, hey, what's up? Either one. Good looking. Either one. I like that. Really? Yeah. So like, hey, the sluice, hello. Hey, buddy, what's up? Yeah. Right. So one or two deep breaths. What does it matter what you say? Exactly. It's the energy and how you're saying it. Yeah. Just like when you're meeting a person. Exactly. So breath. Yes. Breath. Oh, I didn't get an explosion. Yes. Breath. I'm not cool. You are cool. I cannot do a fist bump like that. You're cool. Can we just like wave at each other? It's like way more comfortable for me. Hey guys. Hey guys. I think that is actually the most important one. If you can do it, the second one would be to try to actually just be as expressive as they are. So if you hear this, so you say, hello, right? And they're like, hey, what's up? Oh, hey, what's up? Yeah, hey, what's up? Right. Like that match is like an instant. I'm with you. I'm on the same page. Sure. Especially for business. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Okay. I want to get to the final part of talking about lying. Yes. And how you can tell someone's lying. Yes. So I don't have much of this in the book. I don't have very much of this in the book. Why don't you have this in the book? The reason is because I think this is one of those evil superpowers. Yeah. It's like, it's like, ma-ha. It's like that because it is very powerful. The science behind line detection is very concrete. It's not a guessing game. We do know a lot about what happens when they lie. The problem is, is amateur lie detectors do worse than people who don't know anything about lying? Oh, got it. So my always my worry is like, oh my gosh, if I give someone a little bit of information, I actually make them worse. So for example, in the biggest study on lie detection that was done, we can spot lies with 54% accuracy. So flip a coin. Exactly. Yeah. It's terrible. Like we're terrible. By the way, like police officers don't, oh, so can you guess there's one group that did better on this? It's not police officers. It's not doctors. It's not teachers. Kids. No, I wish it was kids. They actually didn't test kids because that's a whole different IRB process. Who is more efficient and see if there's a lie? Someone's lying. Is that what you're saying? The group. Prison inmates. Wow. It makes sense. Right. As soon as I read that, I was like, oh, yeah. And they joke like the title of section is like it takes one to no one. Oh, yeah, of course. Right. And so that was like very interesting to me. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So. Get to deal from a thief. It is. All those things. Yes, exactly. The same thing happens with lying. And the thing is that the moment you give an amateur, like a liar, like someone, amateur tips, their ability goes below 55%. It gets even worse. That I know. Yeah. Because it's like, you need the whole system. But I think there's a couple of things that if you are interested in this thing or in this idea, this topic, there's a couple of things that you want to start with. And the things that can immediately help you spot lies in your life. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. The first thing that you want to look for are incongruencies. So in interactions, it's very easy to control our words. Anyone can say anything. What you're looking for is incongruencies with body or voice tone. So for example, if I were to show up and be like, I'm so happy to be here today. Right. Right. Like you can hear it. Our body language has 12.5 times more weight than our words. So with liars, what you're looking for is leaks. Leaks are incongruencies. A very common one is in Western cultures, an up and down nod. A vertical nod means yes, and a horizontal one means no. So an incongruency would be-- So like yes. Right. Exactly. Or like, and for people who are listening, I'm shaking my head opposite. So it would be-- So did you take the cookies from the cookie jar? No. Right, right. Shake that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like a leak. That's something that we often see where we're seeing some kind of incongruency. The other big kind of incongruency is micro expressions. This is something that I do talk about in the book. It's sort of the first step to lie detection is learning how to read faces. And the most important facial expression to recognize, this is the most powerful one, is the expression of contempt. So contempt is a one-sided mouth raise. Smirk. Dr. John Gottman, he analyzed thousands of couples in his love lab looking for patterns and marriages. He found that couples who showed contempt towards the other with 93% accuracy would get divorced within 30 years. I mean, you don't hear stats like that very often. So contempt is a really interesting one. You see it a lot on liars because if someone is truly happy about something or very excited to see you or happy to be there, there's no reason they're going to show contempt to the smirk. It often will come out either because they're actually not happy with what they're saying or they hate having to lie. Lier's hate lying. So oftentimes, we did a big lie detection experiment. We had people play two truths in a lie with us and we analyzed their videos. Oh, yes, it was. It's a one-of-play list. So we actually analyze their cues. Lier's hate to lie. We don't like the feeling in our body when we lie. It feels really unauthentic. So sometimes you'll see a liar who will make contempt because they're like, "Oh, I really don't want to have to do this." And they hold their mouth in that side. Contempts expression because they really don't like it. So the two things that I want you to look out for and if you're starting to see it, that means you actually have an eye for it is contempt when there shouldn't be contempt and any kind of incongruencies like that negative head nod or when someone says something that doesn't actually mean it. You start with those two steps and you're already going to increase your ability. Your lie detection capabilities. Yes. I like it. I like it. But you use your gut. You use your intuition. You have to just feel it. You know? You're seeing everything. Just kind of like you've read in the guy sweating and smelling it and you're like, "Everything combined." Exactly. So actually that is more important. That's the most important thing to do. The eye contact as well. You know, someone's not looking at you and they're, you know. So liars, if you're lying face to face, not a video. So liars typically look you in the eye more because they want to see if you believe them. I want to see if you believe them. No way. Yes. Why don't you want to try to do that so you could try to just act like you're telling the truth? So either one. So really good liars actually make more eye contact. You're going to see if they're like, I don't believe you. Right. So like, for example, like a really good liar is like, I'm going to deliver this to you and hope you do it. And they're trying to see, does this believe me? Are they making any word facial expressions? Can I convince them? So actually looking away, shifty eyes is just a sign of nervousness. Oh, yeah. A truth teller can be nervous too. So there's all these weird myths also. Yeah. You want to guess the mode of communication that has the highest amount of lies. So your choices are face to face, emails. I am or chat like text, but do you think has the most amount of lies? Text. Is that the least amount? Nope. It is. Phone has the most amount of lies. And the reason for this is because. Oh, I think I know why. Tell me. Yeah. Maybe. I bet you. I bet you. I bet you. Right? Well, because well, I don't know. I was going to say anything that's not recorded. Oh, yes. That's it. That's it. That's it. There's no paper trail. Yes. And you don't have to lie to someone's face. It's real easy to turn your back and be like, "No." So whereas email, text, and face-to-face, email, text, and paper trail and face-to-face, so all these really interesting things about lying that we have misconceptions or we don't think about them. So by the way, if you're doing a lot of business on the phone, if you're doing a lot of coaching on the phone, you really have to be careful. I have a lot of students who are life coaches. They work with a lot of students. And they do a lot of phone consulting. The problem with that is if it has the most amount of lies or we're talking about hidden emotions. If you're working as a coach, like you really have to spot those hidden emotions, you have to think about what are ways that we can either bring the video to this, like do video chat or do in-person, or at least say, "Hey, I'm taking notes on this call. "I'm going to send you a summary after we hang up." That actually brings the amount of lies down to email level because you're telling them, "I'm going to commit this to black and white. "I'm going to commit this to paper." - Yes, they're still like it's trustworthy. - Exactly. So whenever I do negotiations, I do a lot of phone negotiations, when I'm doing corporate events. I always say, "My assistant's on the line." So third person, right, to here. - I was taking notes. - I say, "My assistant's on the line. "She's going to be taking some notes for us "and don't worry." Just on the full summary out afterwards, please confirm that we got all the details right when you get it. - Amazing. - I have caught so many little lies. People don't mean, I don't think-- - You take the notes, yeah. - Yeah, because my assistant will take notes. Very good notes. We send it back and we say, "Please review these notes "and please send us receipt that they all look good to "that we got everything right." - And what do people say? - Well, the lies that we've caught is they've overestimated amount of people, overestimated a budget. They're not the actual decision maker. And so when we reply back with that email, they have to say, "You know, I'm so sorry, "I mentioned 5,000, but I actually think it's going to be "a little bit closer to 3,000." - Right. - Right, because they know that we'll have it in writing if anything has changed. So protect yourself in the business world by adding that in there. I think that's a really important strategy for just getting more on its interactions. - What about negotiations? - Yes, so for negotiations, the biggest thing here is actually vocal power. So going back to, yes, because we sue doctors based on our perception of their skills, the same thing happens to negotiations. We value people on our perceptions of their skills. - So perception of their skills. - And that comes through vocality. - Yes, because when you go to a negotiation, you're not thinking about vocal, you're thinking about, "What are my assets? "What are my value points? "What are the things I'm going to do?" And those are all the important, but the very first impression, especially how you ask your number, is the most important thing. So for example, if you are quoting a price, and this is the hardest part of negotiation, someone says, "How much do you charge? "What do you cost?" And you say, "Question inflection. "I charge $10,000." - Yeah, it's not good. You are begging them to negotiate with you. You're basically telling them, "I'm not sure of this number, and you shouldn't be either." So first, is making sure that you are saying, not asking. So make sure that you're going the downward inflection. So the question inflections, when you go up at the end of your sentences, that's very, very-- - Sorry, I'm not asking you. - Yes, versus going down at the end of your sentences. So when you have a number, you have a skill that you're gonna share. Think about the verbal ahead of time, but with vocal, you wanna deliver that in a authoritative voice tone. So for example, like President Obama was very-- - How would you say $10,000? - So here's the bad way, first. I always like to do negative practice first. So bad way is, it'll be, I'd love to work with you. I think it would be a great partnership, and it will be $5,000. That's the bad way. The good way is, I'd love to work with you. I think it would be a great partner, and the cost would be $5,000. Right, so it's just adding at the end. It's a finality, right? It's like saying, this is my cost, and I know how much I'm worth. Now, if you don't know how much you're worth, we could have a different discussion about that. - Sure, sure. - Like I want you to own your worth. Your time is valuable, your skills are valuable. You spent years learning to do what you do, so you have to be able to price that. - Your worth is only worth what someone's willing to pay, as well. - 100%. - So if you can't convince or enroll someone, or then back it up with the results, then you may get it, but I can't even, I keep it, so you've gotta like do lemurs. - Right, and they don't have a perception of your value that way. So the first thing is the downward inflection, the second thing is volume. So when we're really nervous, we will lose volume. Remember how we were excited? - Scytheir. - I go up. Yeah, so sales people, I do a lot of sales trainings. They'll do this thing on the point that they're most nervous about, like their weak point or something they're lying about, or a bad number. Oh yeah, we'd love to work with you. I think it'll be really great, and cost will be $5,000. - Right, right. - Yeah. - Again, that's a social signal of, ah, this person doesn't really want to charge that. I'm gonna ask for less. - I think it's when you're like, calm and comfortable when you speak about it, that's gonna come across well, right? - And practicing, saying your hardest points. So go through that, practice sheet, the notes you take before a meeting, and practice saying to another human being, not your mirror. - Here's my rate, yeah. - Here is my rate, or there's other things you can be nervous about to a negotiation, right? Like a timeline, or a skill level, or maybe other competitors, you think might be able to beat you, make sure that you are practicing those comments with authoritative voice tone and solid volume. - So people feel comfortable and confident in your work. - And they catch it. And do you infect that feeling? - I love like, for me, I get a lot of email, inbound email requests for speaking. - Yeah. - And I never want to jump on the phone with anyone, 'cause I'm just like, it's exhausting. - I know. - You know, like having these conversations. So people say we love to book you, and I literally reply with like one sentence, like I'm $35,000, just let me know that it dates, and I'll see if I'm free. That's about all I say. - Yes. - Sometimes I'll ask like tell me more about like what it is, but you know, usually just like here it is. If I'm free, let me all let you know, but tell me the days. - And typically, someone who is emailing you should already know that you're gonna have a high value. - Right. - And if you're, that's also part of your brand, right? Like you're very direct. If people want to know about what you, you have a podcast they can listen to. - Yes, exactly. - You have a book that they can read. And so it's also about how do you position your numbers? So yes, you can give a lot of information, right? And there's different kinds of proof. There's three different kinds of proof. There's social proof. So that would be, you know, we've had 15 events in the last six months, or whatever. There's qualitative testimonial proof. So this is like a CR person or a sales person says, "Lewis was the best speaker I ever had." And there's credibility proof. So media mentions, published book, bestselling author. So you have to think about, now, Louis, you have those. You have all three of them because you have a book. That's on your website. You have social proof, you have podcasts. So you don't need to necessarily go and prove that. However, if you don't have a website or if you don't have those obvious buckets filled, you need to make sure that you are hitting all three of those proof buckets in your response. So if you don't have a book or a podcast or anything like that, your email back should be so great to hear from you. First mention of social proof. I've done events for groups like yours in the past. They've done really well. I think we did three different groups last year. Social proof number one. Second, attached to this email, I have a deck with an overview of topics as well as some testimonials from some of our previous groups that have really enjoyed us. And then here are my rates. Please let me know dates. And then at the bottom, any professional credibility mentions. So are you certified? Are you a doctor? Have you been on an media? Those can go be at the very bottom. That way you're very subtly hitting those three proof buckets. And they're very important in negotiation. I love it. I love it. Is there anything that you want to share that we haven't shared? Oh my gosh. Before we wrap it up. I would say that the last thing-- and this is something that I tried to make a big point in the book. I don't want to hit people over the head with it, but I don't think I got it as well as I wanted, which is, I don't think you should ever pretend to be something you're not. Again, I don't believe in fake it till you make it. I think that you're better off spending your time instead of trying to be the bubbly extrovert, is trying to find out what is your unique brand of charisma. Like what is your flavor? I think that the more time you can spend on that, before trying to emulate someone else or trying to dial up something that isn't natural to you, is a much better place to be. That's where happiness comes from. And that's where people mean when they say authentic. And so anything I've said today in this interview or anything that you've read, try to figure out what's your unique take on that. Go make me prove my worth. If I set something that's not interesting to you, go make an experiment. Like go up to 50 different people in X50 days. - Yes. - And see if you can try out a conversation or if that works for you. If you can find your unique flavor, if you can treat it like an experiment, you can never fail. Because experiments never fail. - Yeah, that's good. I didn't experiment when I moved to New York City as well. 'Cause I was like, I wanna meet some new people. I don't know anyone here. And I call it the Red Rose Project. Can you guess what it was? - Did you give Red Rose's to people? - Yes. - Every day I bought roses that I would give them out. - Yes. - This is what I was signal like even about the girls. - Yes. - Sometimes. - Were you only trying to meet girls? - Yes. - You were about to say no. - I'm not a lie. - I feel like you were about to say no. - I'm not a lie. - Don't lie, you can't. - Not what you're trying to meet guys too, but this specific project was for like, dating girls out of date. And I, it only lasted like four days because I met a few different people. - It worked. - Yeah it worked, but a couple of times it didn't work. I thought it was like so smooth. - I was like thrilled to like, I thought it was like, you know, I'm a nice guy. Like, I'm disarming. You know, I wasn't like this weird like, do she do whatever? I thought I was like a nice guy. - I thought it was pretty good, yeah. - Yeah, but I remember I went up to like one girl and she like ran for me and I was like, oh my god. - Oh, yeah. - I was like, okay, this did not work, but she was also kind of like little moody and like, yeah, I don't know anyways. But most people over there were like, oh, they were kind of taking back. They thought it was gonna out. And then they just, - That's funny thing, you just gave it some. - You just gave it to him, yes. - And let it go. - And I would see what would happen. - And what happened? - I was just like smile, just say I wanted to give you a rose today and I would like walk away. - And did you do me? People, did you make a rose? - I did, I met a few people. Yeah, but it only lasted for like a few days and then I was like, oh. - So here's a challenge to everyone listening. I like love that. Is there a project you can do for five days? Okay, so for my introverts listening, for my lovely introverts, maybe for you with something small, maybe it's a small as texting a good friend, a conversation started that you heard today, right? Like just with your good friends, deepening a relationship you already have. Maybe if you're a little more ambiverted, it's asking a new colleague to lunch. We're asking a friend to lunch you haven't been to lunch with. And for my extroverts, maybe it's the Lewis challenge, which is go buy roses or go buy lavender action to this in the streets of New York with my-- - Lavender? - We did little bouquets of lavender for everyone and just told them to have a great day. Maybe it's something like that, like buying lavender, buying a rose, and just see what happens. See what it's like when you get butterflies in your shell, I can get you to approach someone. Take a five day challenge from today because I think that we can hear all this stuff as knowledge, we can keep it in the back of our head and it makes it look good. But turning into action is how we actually have behavior change. - Yes, yes. Make sure you guys go get the book, "Captivate the Science of Seceding with People." I'm telling you it's a game changer. Highly recommended. - You'll like Lewis's chapter, chapter five. - Yes, someone chapter five. - Reverse, engineering, Lewis's success. - That's good, that's good. Final couple of questions. - Yes. - If this microphone was connected to eight billion people right now, and they had headphones on, and you had 30 seconds to share a message that they would hear from you, every human in the world would hear this message in their language. And this was your message for the world, what would you say? - Okay, hold on, doesn't start yet, it didn't start yet. - It didn't start yet. - I would say there is one person in your life you've been meaning to reach out to. There's probably one person in your life who you've been holding something back or worried about, or you've been trying to fix something with them, and it's scary to fix things. Reach out to that person, and actually work on fixing it. Ask them the question you've been waiting to ask them, bring up the thing that you've been too afraid to bring up, and try to mend that relationship, because those broken things really weigh us down, and there's a lot of potential in fixing whatever is broken in that relationship. So go talk to that person. - That's great, I like it. A lot of healing there. - Yeah, healing, yeah. - This is called the Three Truths. So if you could only share three truths, and your book would be gone, and all your videos you've ever created, no one would have access to anything else, except for these three truths. That's all they would have of you for all the time. What would be your three truths or three lessons that you would share with the world? - Vulnerability is sexy. That's just three, right? - Yes. Own your weirdness, and your confidence is contagious. Hopefully we've touched on some of those today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good, okay, good. Those are my thesis statements. - It's good. - I wanna acknowledge you for a moment, for continually using your awkwardness to help other people, to help yourself to, you know, not feel so awkward and feel all so alone, 'cause I know you've felt that way for many years. - Very well-own, yes. - And I'm sure sometimes you still feel that way. So I wanna acknowledge you for constantly pushing your discomfort to stretch yourself, to help yourself, and to help so many people that listen to your work, that read the book, that watch the video, so I wanna acknowledge you for all of that. - Thank you. For my awkward people listening, you are not alone. - Exactly. I don't know if I asked you this last time, so final question is what is your definition of greatness? - I think we did, but I actually like revisiting this question because I think that definition can change. - Absolutely. - On the brink of a book launch, I would say greatness is not the success of that book launch or hitting a list, all of those things would be great. Actually, I think the real greatness was being able to put my truths into something and have it be so kindly accepted by others, that feels like the best feeling in the world. I think that's what greatness is. - Love it. Scienceofpeople.com, get the book, captivate. Vanessa, thank you so much. - Thank you. - Appreciate it. - Thank you, everyone. (upbeat music) - Welcome back to Sugar Back, get it delivered. - Contestant, you're out of food and you're meds, but are too tired to get up to you, a, pout, b, beg your roommate, or c, get Walmart to deliver it all same day. - Same day, who knew? - Uh, gonna go with three, Walmart. - That is correct. Walmart offers same day delivery for prescriptions, gross reason more. - I loved that leaving my couch. - Walmart, who knew? - Subject to availability, restrictions, medication, exclusions, and fees apply. Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect tire. Skills First Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars, skilled through alternative routes. 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