30: Vanessa Van Edwards | How to Captivate with Social Cues

A lot of the times I think interrupters interrupt out of fear. They're afraid of silences. They're afraid of being boring. And they're afraid of running out of things to say. So in their head, they're like constantly active, thinking the next thing. And so once they accomplish it, they want to ask it or share it right away. But if you say I have three things, or I have two things, or first, second, they will be like, oh, I have a break. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my producer Jason DeFilippo. On this episode, we're talking with my good friend Vanessa Van Edwards. Been a while since I've gotten a chance to speak with her. Flew up to Portland to hang out for a minute. And we did a show because that's how we roll. And it's also how we justify flying around all over the place to hang out with our friends. Not bad. It's a good time up there. If you're in Portland, you live in a great place. I'm just going to go ahead and throw that out there. If it didn't rain every day, I'd move there. Today, we're talking about how to make a graceful exit with social cues, how to show someone you're not attracted to them with social cues, how to show someone you don't believe them with social cues, and how to nicely interrupt someone with social cues. In case you haven't put it together, this episode largely revolves around social cues. There's a lot more that we discuss in this particular episode because Vanessa Van Edwards is a master of body language and nonverbal communication, which is one of the reasons we met in the first place. And you know, she practices what she preaches. She's a nice lady that Vanessa Van Edwards. I'm a big fan of her and her content. I'm happy to bring some of that here to you today. Don't forget we have a worksheet for today's episodes. You can make sure that you understand everything that Vanessa Van Edwards and I discussed. And you can actually apply it. Go figure. That's important too, right? Not just learning through us Moses, learning through doing and occasionally writing stuff in a PDF. Those those worksheets always in the show notes. The link is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com/podcast. Now here's Vanessa Van Edwards. Something that I think a lot of people want to know from you especially is how to get away from a conversation because we've talked a lot about how to start conversations and how to meet people and how to create good, nonverbal first impressions. And now we want and we'll do more of that on the Jordan Harbinger show because you and I have unfinished business literally. We're going to create like a dozen hours of stuff. Hopefully up here in Portland where there's perfect environment for getting a lot of work done. That's a rain. It makes you really productive. Exactly. Make sure you're really productive and also makes you just there's not I mean if there's nothing else going on. You have to work. You got to work. It's not attempting otherwise but people want to know how to get out of situation. We talked about getting into social situations. Let's talk about how to get out of it because especially for the ladies I think there's a lot of okay how do I make it stop? Yeah okay so what's so interesting is I accidentally figured out this was a skill because I was teaching first impressions as a skill. I'm like you know make a grand entrance, come in and wow them right all like that's a skill. And then I realized that you could have the most amazing first impression a really great conversation but if you don't know how to exit the conversation it ends so awkward there like okay well I'm going to the bathroom and then you're like I messed it up like I meant the other skill is leaving a lasting last impression. Yeah okay so I mean there's two skills and they're very different so here's my favorite process for I call it a graceful exit okay okay so first is you want to warm you want to have a cool down you know how like any workout you have a warmup you have the workout and then you have a cool down it's the same thing on a conversation the warmup is like that initial pitch at the first impression conversation and then when you feel that lol right like maybe a couple of silences maybe you have to move the bathroom whatever it is you want to start mentioning verbally okay giving them cues that were sort of wrapping up there's a couple ways to do that so don't just start packing away slowly like the cool down is like a slow back up the cool down is like is there a table behind me now I got 13 feet to go that could work yeah working just if you're very graceful right and we will talk about non-verbal cues too but I like the verbal first so like verbally future mentions so just people suddenly get this if you're like so what are you up to this weekend what are you up to later tonight like that the future mentioned it gets people out of the present and it can segue into well that sounds great I hope you have a great weekend doing xyz with alone without me there yes so the future mentioned can be a really nice segue for them to know that that's coming but also the you're about to then say wish you the best with that the other verbal thing you can do is begin to wrap up what you talked about in the sense of wow that project sounds super interesting well I'm gonna have to reach out to my LinkedIn I would love to hear more about that or did you have a card I would love to see that I'd love to hear more trading cards right that is also okay we're moving towards the end and then the other verbal segue is so I'm gonna follow up with you probably tomorrow or Fridays that sound good to you and so you're giving yourself a runway yeah for a really easy exit where they can also not be taken by surprise the worst thing when they're when they're like oh wait what I wasn't sure we were yeah done yet yeah I noticed that a lot of interactions sort of have this natural fade out but you don't know if the other person is on the same page right so yes if I'm talking with with you and then I'm like all right well we're at some conference and someone else comes up and kind of says oh hey Vanessa and then I'm just like standing here because they didn't do that or I have to be like hi I'm Jordan and then like forcing my way in there because otherwise I'm standing around or you start engaging with that person and then I'm like oh I guess we're done talking now so then I just sort of wander up or I go or stand silent see you guys later yeah stand silent you're like bye and they're like oh no don't go and you're like but I was standing here silently frozen I'm not participating in the interaction okay so this is a side tip but I actually think it's important I think it is your responsibility if you are interrupting someone so if you're the interruptor or if you're the person who knows both people so it's your responsibility to make a smooth transition so if you're the interruptor not only do you have to be like hey Jordan I haven't seen you forever oh I'm so sorry did I interrupt it didn't mean to that is actually your responsibility is the interruptor to be a smooth interruptor because it gives them the opportunity to be like oh no worries um yes follow up with me on that so they can finish up a thought that they might have just had or no worries at all we were bored out of our mind so glad you're here right it's like yes so if the interruptor has to do that asper permission to enter the conversation and then if you're the person who knows both Jordan and Danielle or Jordan and Jen I would have to say oh my gosh you have to meet each other on let's see in common I think you guys I think you guys actually have this in common because that otherwise you have that you make everyone awkward so that's interesting that's an entrance queue and it prevents awkward exiting what happens if you're interrupted by a not polite interruptor yes you've got to do something about that right so the the aforementioned oh hey Vanessa and I'm like oh all right my strategy is always to sort of like bull in a china shop introduce myself as soon as everyone takes a breath I'm like oh by the way I'm Jordan and I'm like you should feel bad about not introducing yourself I actually like that and that that's a I personally think that's really good because otherwise I hate it you know this you've been in a conversation where to group people and there's a silent person who hasn't been reduced and hasn't said anything and you're like the elephant becomes like louder and louder and louder and you know why it usually happens what I think usually happens someone doesn't know their name oh for sure yeah right this is um dang it like you don't want to bring it up right so what happens is like this is oh like this happens to me too so like what you're talking this like what's it that we just met I didn't know your name and then all of a sudden someone comes up and I'm like oh my god I don't remember this guy's name I'm not gonna introduce you because I'm afraid so then you end up standing there awkwardly so first I love the bull in the china shop of like I'm Jordan even if I remember it or not and if you don't remember someone's name there are ways you can subtly get around it this isn't your tweet or interrupting question but you can say um uh so you can introduce the other person first so I could say Danielle meet my new friend Danielle tell me about this and then usually Danielle will ask what was your name or you can say my name is so sometimes you can leave up to them I also have a rule with everyone who I'm close with that if I introduce them first I do not know the other person's name that's a cool hidden rule but you need to have it established beforehand usually but not not always like for example my husband is the best of us he knows this really well that if he walks up to me and I'm like this is my husband Scott he knows before to even give me a chance to say hi what's your name oh nice Jen we got to steal the you all of your wing men all of your wing ladies they must know that rule luckily even if they don't know the rule you can try it and it usually works because you introduce them first and you kind of give them the floor and then they go oh hi what's your name so it like kind of puts you on this on that so names really helps um even if you don't know um but right because no one's ever going to go oh so what's this person's name if they're standing right there they're never gonna do that they're gonna ask the person what's your name right or like or they're even more awkward than you forgetting their name so then you're off the hook yeah then you're like god weren't they weird how who does that who is rude and funny also I'm a big fan of like don't know their name I'm just gonna take a long yes drink of water uh yeah and then also when you're drinking water other people know they have to talk right right right so you're like hey this is Danielle and you take a big drink of water and they know that it's their turn to say something and they usually will just get to take a nice long sip of this so that happens in interview it means I don't know what to say it's your turn to talk yes that means um you were talking about interrupting yes if you're the smooth interruptor great you're supposed to do that oh excuse me hi my name is this to rope everyone in but what happens when someone just plows in hey even as I haven't seen you in so long because you step back as your polite or the person the other person steps back as their polite and then I'm just The sins I've. I'm just losing social status like every second that goes by. - Yeah, it's true, yeah. - And I don't, I'm not wanting to be obsessed with social status, but it is at some point you just feel like, okay, I feel like such a schmo, not a furniture now. It's been a minute and a half. - It's so weird. - No one's talking to me. Am I supposed to just leave now? - So here's, so there's a couple of different ways you can think about this. And I actually like to break down really specifically. So first, you're breaking into a group. Let's talk about a group of people. So my favorite strategy with a group is, if you enter into a group that's in a conversation, most likely you will be sidelined because the group flow does want to be like, oh, who's this new guy standing around? So what I like to do is in a group, actually sidel up to the one person who has very, very open body language. So usually there's one person in the group that has their shoulder kind of out. Like they don't have a closed circle. They might be kind of looking around, overhead gazing. They're your end. So I will usually make eye contact with them, sidel up to them and say, hey, you look like you're having a fun conversation. Can I join? That way I'm making this person my introducer. Yeah, they're now responsible. Because they're not going to go, no, it's obviously private. You're sort of networking events. Right. And also, they're kind of, and they usually they will take a step back, put their arm around and say, yeah, come on in. So the other group knows, oh, this person has been accepted. So I almost always will never cold approach a group because no one knows what to do with you and no one's taking responsibility for you. Yeah, I like this. I've definitely done my fair share of cold approaching groups in a past career as a guy who cold approaches groups of people. But the trick always at that point, and this is far less graceful than what you explain, is to find the two people, like you mentioned, if there's one or two that are sort of more open, and just sort of place two fingers one on each of their shoulders, and they will naturally turn to face you. And then you're, yeah, really just like this, and they'll open up and let you in. But then you can't just stand there and be like, continue, you have to. You have to at that point. Carry on. Right. No, don't mind me. You have to at that point be like, hey, I'm Jordan, by the way, sorry, I realize I haven't met you guys yet. And even if there's absolutely no reason why you should have met them already, if you're at an event or any kind of mixer, then people will go, oh, right on, because it's kind of what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. So you can just kind of confidently scroll in there. And then what I've noticed at years of doing this is if you get into a long or extended conversation with one or two of those people, they'll go, so how do you know everyone else here? And you realize at that point, they have no idea that you just met everyone. Yes. And that's everyone's objection is, oh, well, it's going to be weird. No, every single person in that circle assumes you knew one or all of the other people in that circle. Yes. And the same thing when you make someone be your sponsor, they think that you knew the sponsor. Right. Right. Like whether you did or not, they just go, oh, yeah, it's a friend of a friend, which immediately gives you social proof and immediately gets you in. I also think if you're brave enough to say, oh, hey, by the way, I'm Vanessa. Cool. The other way that you can do it is the kind of the warm up. So one thing that everyone loves is when people laugh at their jokes. Everyone loves it. People love laughs when you laugh at jokes. They love losing eyes. So what I like to do is I might not like say, like, hey, I'm Vanessa, just here, but I'll make sure that I am demonstrative with my social approval. So I laugh, I make more eye contact at UNA. So by the first few seconds of a conversation, you actually are already in the group because people are like, oh, she's a laugher. She's a supporter. They feel like you're already in there. And then what you can, if you really want to is then add in like little interjections, like, oh, really? Interesting. Wow. You're already in the conversation then. Like, whether they know your name and then, and then after that, you can say, oh, by the way, I'm Vanessa. So nice to meet you. Yeah, that's nice and smooth. It's kind of like the slow warm up. So I do want to bring up a really interesting kind of interruption that happens a lot. And I have very civic use for this. I don't know if anyone watching has an interruptor in their life. So this is someone where you're in a conversation. I'm that person, but yeah, go ahead. Sorry to interrupt you. Continue. You're an interviewer all those. Yes. It's your show. You're allowed to interrupt me. I'm like, oh, she's getting too much attention. Let me fix that right now. Let me add in my-- Back to me. --back to me. --whitties smart and be doubted. OK, so if you have a Jordan in your life, all you have to do-- I'm just joking. You're not actually that long extended silk water. No. So I'm talking about-- it's like a really bad interruptor. This is someone who will literally ask you a question. And while you are about to launch into it, they just go into their next question or they go into their story. You know those people. They're love. Yeah. So I have a couple people in my life so I have a couple strategies I thought I would show you that are my favorites for these. Let's do it. OK, so if you're with someone and they do that to you, one thing you can do verbally to prevent them from interrupting you is what's called bookmarking. So do you know what-- I've used bookmarks before. OK, but this is not-- this is an emotional bookmark. OK. So an emotional bookmark is you basically tell someone how long you need before you start talking. So for example, if you say, actually, I've lived in three different places. Someone says, where are you from? Where are you from? Actually, I've lived in three different places. They know. They cannot talk until you've gone through all three places. So there's actually two different phases. First, they know there's a next that's coming. So you're like table of contents in your next sentence. Yes. Or next few sentences. Yes. And they know this. Today, mentally prepare, ah, I have a few seconds off. A lot of the times, I think, interruptors interrupt out of fear. So in their head, they're constantly active, I think, in the next thing. But this person's going to probably talk for the next 30 seconds. I'm good for 30 seconds. So that's one way to prevent interruptors, especially if you have a boss or a colleague interrupts in meetings, that works really well. What about the socially unaware interruptor that isn't going, oh, there's three things. They're just going, what am I going to say next to prove how interesting I am in this conversation? Because everybody knows those people. Oh, yeah. So the next level. So we're talking about levels of interruptions. The first one is bookmarking, hopefully, a sane, logical person will say, oh, I should wait my turn. OK, but let's say you have someone who has to be escalated. The other thing you can do, there's three nonverbal cues I'm going to teach you. The first one is call, I call it the fish. So-- OK. --with the fish. Oh, I just try to guess. The fish. It sounds like you're just wiggling in there. I don't know. Am I close? No, but that's a good guess. No, but that's what fish do. So-- Yeah, that's a good guess though. OK, so you'll get it once I do it. So when you're talking to someone, and they interrupt, and you open your mouth, we know this is a nonverbal sign of-- So it's like a fish face. Yeah, so it's like, you can't see me doing that, but it even makes that kind of popping noise. You know, oh, she was about to say something. Or like, she was literally mid breath or mid sentence. So someone's interrupting me. I will sometimes be like, and they know that I am holding my mouth open, that kind of, oh, form out like a fish, because I want to say something. And it makes them feel rude. Yeah, that's a common technique that I have to use on the show. Sometimes if I'm interviewing someone live, not you, of course, because you're experienced. I wouldn't say never, mostly ever. Yeah, mostly. That's honest. That's true, mostly never. I'll take it. But you can also do this with your hands, right? Is this-- was this-- You got it. You got it. You got it. So the second one is, we are trained as humans to know that this, our hand up, palm out, means stop. And so if you will be like-- or you put your hand out. So the subtle one is just the hand out. It's almost like a pause. But if you really want some of this up, especially in a larger group, you can actually almost-- It's almost like you're raising your hand or a stop. A gentle way to do this for me as a host is to have that hand out with my fingers open. Somehow, fingers closed is a little bit more forceful. Fingers open is kind of like, I'm reaching for something, but really I'm just reaching for you to stop talking for five seconds or even five milliseconds so that I can interject because we're trying to keep this conversation on track. It works perfectly in person. So I never heard of that. That's true, actually. I don't know why that worked. I don't know. It's just from testing it. This looks more forceful with my fingers closed than it does like so. I think it's like, this is like, stop. Right? Like if you're really, really-- But like a casual kind of putting your hand it is like just a little pause. So you can also, by the way, if this works for your brand, you can also do the people. So just one second. Just like one second. So it's like just one. That's a lot. That's top level, like, someone who's really bad at it. Because what do parents and teachers do with the little kids we're talking? Oh, yeah. So we know that this is a sign of, like, wait one minute. Or it's not your turn yet. I'm trying to think if this looks-- Oh, it looks like I'm thinking, but it also looks like you might let me in. Correct. Because I'm thinking. And I obviously have something. So I just did it also that I was like, I actually didn't have anything to say. But like-- Thanks for that. Yeah, yeah. interrupting-- No, I don't have anything to contribute. I'm just trying to control the conversation. I wanted to show you a worked in person. But somehow, if you're like, oh, aha, Eureka, it actually looks like you're having the idea, but actually what you're doing is please just wait one second. So those are the kind of like nonverbal things you can do pretty easily. And of course, the last, absolute last level, touching them. So-- Oh, right. Right. If I put a hand in your shoulder, like, you know-- That's fine. --their media. Yeah, that's something that works really well if you know the person. If you don't know them and they're a guy, you can get away with it 99% of the time. I would say be careful doing this to women if you're a man, not universally, but it can be a little aggressive if you don't know the person at all. And you just suddenly reach out. Because they might-- Not that they would get the wrong idea, but it might just be like, whoa, I don't know you. And some people are highly uncomfortable with this. I've learned that the hard way in the past. 100% agree. I think that touch is the last level, especially if you're touching the opposite gender. When women to men and men to women, the absolute last level, if you touch someone and they recoil or like stiffen, I actually apologize for that. Yes, definitely. Like, oh, sorry about that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to say exactly because then you're at least saying, I'm sorry, I acknowledge that. And then you try to like defuse the awkwardness with like a little bit of humor. Yeah. Right. So totally agree. Last level, I'll even take that tip away because if you can't get someone to stop talking with the fish, the finger and the palm, it sounds funny. Yes. Like the fish, the finger and the palm. They're not someone you want to talk to. Yeah. Anyway, I think it typically happens in professional situations where you can't get away from them. I mean, if you're in a social situation and you can never talk, this is a person who maybe needs a little bit of a lecture after the conversation, hey, you know, you never let and you can never, it's better to lecture somebody about somebody else, right? If you have to do that. So instead of you never let me talk, it's a, you never let Jen speak. I noticed that. You know, you never really let Jen speak that way. You're sticking up for them. You're not just forcing your agenda on them. I like that one. Like standing up for someone else. Right. Even though you're like, I know she's too polite to say it is, but you never really let Scott talk. Oh, wow. It's such a good tip because then actually, like then you could kind of end on it together. You're not criticism about you. Yeah. You're just like, I know she, and also you can be like, I know that like Scott's a little shy. Yeah. I bet you that she doesn't even notice you're doing this, but I feel like, oh, you know, we should let her come out of her shell a little bit more. I love it. Yeah. It tends to be something that you can get away with as long as the other person's not there. Otherwise, you're throwing them under the bus. Yeah. That sucks. I never let Jen talk. No, I'm fine. Shut up. Or then you get someone who's like, I just want to apologize to Jen for my route. And they're like, what? Yeah, what are you talking about? Exactly. That's like even worse. Yeah. Yeah. No. Jordan said that you were upset that I was always interrupting and I'm like, check please. Gotta go. You're writing your wife's battles. Yeah. Yeah. Not that it's not that she needs that at all. So how to make a graceful exit with social kids? We talked a little about the future mentions. Yes. Oh, that sounds really great. Yeah. Have fun with that. Or that sounds really exciting. I hope you enjoyed that. And then follow ups. All right. I'm going to get back to you on LinkedIn or give me your card. I'll make sure I follow up tomorrow. I want to get a couple more clear verbal exit strategies. So we already have have a great time. If you're weekend plans, here's my business card. I'm going to follow up with you on LinkedIn. I'll be sure to follow up on this. Good luck with your projects. What other ways can we sort of gracefully slide out of something? Maybe we're not in a business situation. So we don't want to follow up or we they don't have some project that we're going to follow up with. We just want to get the hell out of there. Yeah. So one of my favorites is like a very soft compliment. So like, for example, oh my gosh, you are that story was amazing. I like made my night. It was so great talking to you. Thanks for making my night. That's also like a very like nice way of saying like, you're great. That was a great story. You made my night great talking to you. It kind of leaves everyone being like, oh, don't help me. See you later. You literally say that. Do you know what I mean? It wouldn't be like a very funny thing to say. So kind of that compliment of like you were the highlight of my night. It was so good talking to you. Everyone then everyone kind of walks away going, ha ha ha, like a jolly. I'm still I'm so entertaining. Yeah. Why she gone though. I'm that great. Where did she go? We'll be like that until later. Right. We don't realize that yet. Yeah. That's one of my favorites. Nice. Okay. Good. One that I stole from you is I'm going to go say hi to the host. I'll catch you guys in a bit and you don't have to catch them in a bit unless it happens organically. Exactly. And no one's going to be like, how rude she went to go say hello to the person whose house we're in. Exactly. Exactly. So that's like one of my favorites. Host, fill in host with the boss with. Right. And you can also do this with, oh my gosh. I see what I'm called friends. I have to go talk to them before they leave or like it looks like my friends about to about to leave. I want to say a bite of her before she leaves. All of those are very legitimate reasons to go meet someone else and it gives someone like, oh, okay. Like they have they have another purpose. Same with I'm going to refill my glass. If your glass is on the empty, people actually do usually notice it and they're ready for you to say, I'm going to refill. Do you want to join or like switch out later? So you can also use that as an example. So refilling your glass, going to the bathroom, getting somebody to eat. I almost always am a grazer at these kinds of things where I can easily refill my plate as opposed to sitting down and having one giant meal. You're a good strategy because it kind of gives you an out. Yeah. A little go. These pizza rolls are really good and they're going fast. No joke. Like exactly. Yeah. I got to go. I got to go to refill before they all go out. Yeah. They have crab brain going here. So screw you. He's big. He's been in a blanket art to dive. I've used that before. Like not joking at all. So yeah. So I think that those ones compliment and reasons to go. I love it. Okay. Great. And so we have those sort of professional and not as more personal party excuses to go casual. Like so casual, right? So you know, you were great. This is so you're so funny. We always like to hear their funny. Of course. And slash other friends came in. People get also. There's a big influx of people. The mood can sometimes change and people are very open to. Oh, like clearly there's new people here. You want to go chat with them. Great. Yeah. I dig that a lot. And this sort of dovetails. Nice. It was something we talked about earlier on the Jordan Harpenter show, which was bringing people to networking events. And then it's like, oh, I met a clinger. How do I get rid of them? You have like the wing man strategy. And we can go over this stuff in another episode because I feel like you probably have a ton of those strategies as well. Yeah. Klingers or what do I do with this shy person that I feel bad for because I'm always compelled to sort of it's like, fix it. But for the grace of God, go. I right. So used to be me. How do we show somebody that we are not attracted to them with social cues? I think we can talk about attraction and dating stuff, maybe and even in another show because that's a whole unit. Let's save it. But a lot of especially females who are networking or in professional situations have a problem because they're going and they're talking with people, especially if you're a female engineer and everyone around you is a guy you want to maybe draw a hard line or even if you're just in a mixed crowd, you really don't want to have even the thought in your head that somebody might mistake your intentions is got to be really uncomfortable. Yes. Okay. So first of all, it's worse for both sides. One, you don't want people to think that you're hitting on them. And two, you want to make sure that you're observing someone like, oh, I want to make sure they're not attracted to me either. So this works with both sides. So there's one first non-verbal cue that is the most, it's not flirtatious, but it is one of the warmest cues that we have. Okay. And it is nodding. So especially in Western cultures in India, it's a little bit different, but in Western cultures. Yeah, you have to do this weird side. I can't even do it. I always make the exception. I always say that out. I always say that out loud because on YouTube otherwise all of my followers from India, they're like, but not in India. So I know not in India, it's well different, but in Western cultures, the up and down nod, the vertical nod is yes, I agree. I'm listening. I'm with you. I'm here. Right? The no nod is side to side. So what the more that we are nodding, the more someone feels like they are literally into us, they're into what we're saying. So this is great for professional work. Sure. But when you pair nodding with a couple others kind of flirtatious cues, lots of smiling, extra loud laughing, any kind of physical touch. So haptics is the fancy word for touch. And so anytime that we have physical touch, this could be arm touches, this could be shoulder touches, this could be hugs, could be cheek kisses, those add as sort of accelerators for the nod. Like they when they get that kind of oxytosis, when we get oxytosis from our touch, it's like adding fuel to a question mark of is this person attracted to me? Is this person into me? Right. Okay. So what I would say is if you're really worried about someone, if you want to make sure that they know, they know that you're not attracted to them, is actually nodding less. So having a very, very still head, it's hard to do actually. Yeah, I feel like a naturally and always nodding. Right. And I also as well, so two, two or three years ago, one of my nearest resolutions was to nod less. How do you even build that practice? Here's how. Here's how I think you do it. Is if you think you are a bobble hunter. So like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, it's not only very submissive. It's also can border on, you know, I'm into you, depending on what it's paired with. Um, is I, so it's really hard to just stay still. Right. That's really hard. Yeah. But if you have, I'm holding my face still right now. So I, it's working. Yeah, it is working. It's working. It might look a little awkward because I'm keeping my chin. This is called the Hillary Clinton. Hmm. I'm deep in thoughts or that say you're deep in that. So actually, if you can hold your chin that actually works. Um, what I do is I'll do the head tilt. So it's actually, we usually don't nod or head tilting. Right. It's a little awkward. So the moment you head tilt, it still looks like you're engaged. So let's hear listening. That's like exposing your ear, which is listening, but you're not, it doesn't feel like you have to do the nodding. So if I feel myself, even in this interview nodding too much, I'll just slightly tilt my head towards you. And that makes me hold it in that position as opposed to nodding. I like that a lot. I found myself nodding when you are nodding because we're doing mirroring stuff. Yeah. Because we're good friends and we're on camera in this sort of artificial situation. There's also, have you seen this thing where like if someone goes like this with their hand, the other person like cannot help but nod. I really resisted it right there. Yeah. You're holding your voice forcibly not doing it because we're talking about it. Yeah. So the reason I mentioned that is because if you're a very handsy person, like I talk a lot with my hands and I'm doing this without even realizing doing it, I'll see the entire group will be like, mm, and like it was a little cold dish. So also be careful if you want to discourage flirtation or attraction to also a little calmer with the hands, not doing this kind of a gesture because it automatically makes people be like, yes. And when we say this kind of a gesture, the video is worth watching. It'll be embedded in the show notes, but we're looking at the sort of hurry up winding the clock finger or hand movement where you're doing, how would you do that? It's like stirring stirring soup horizontally. That made it more confusing for sure. No, we didn't. How would you stir soup? I mean, you would stir it like this. Okay, and now do it horizontally. I mean, that's it. If you're holding this, I mean, okay, I'll give it that one. I'll give it that one. Wind, urban, that's it. Soup that defies stirring soup in space because it's not spilling out. If you're stirring soup in space and there's no gravity, that's what that does. Yes. Very useful reference point for most of my listeners. You're welcome. Most of my listeners are spent at least six months to a year in space. You're welcome. Yeah. Very good. Alright. We show people we're not attracted to them by nodding less. Nodding less. Smiling less. Smiling less. So I want to, like, we dive into smiling for a second. Yeah, because I don't want people to be unfriendly. I know. So I really struggle with smiling specifically because on the one hand, you're told from a very young age, especially women, are told smile all the time. Be friendly, be likable. And so when you first meet someone, you're told to smile, right? Every first impression an article ever says smile. And then on the other hand, research is pretty clear that smiling is more of a submissive nonverbal. Correct. Yeah. So you can be friendly and submissive or unfriendly and dominant. Dominant. Right. Now, I don't like that choice. I don't think it's that black and white. Sure. But I do think it's something to keep in mind. So for example, typically if you're in a room, whenever I'm in a room, I always try to cold read the room to speak the best non-verbal practice. See if you can figure out who the boss is. See if you can figure out who has a crush on who. See if you can feel if you can see alliances. It's a really helpful nonverbal strategy. You'll often notice that more people are smiling towards and at the boss and the boss is smiling at no one. Typically, not always. And that's because subordinates just do. Like when I'm with a VIP, I'm like, I'm a grinning fool. And that's because it's seen as like a non-threatening open gesture. So I like smiling upon first impression. I think it's great to have that immediate warmth. But I really caution being careful for smiling in a conversation unless you genuinely feel it. The worst is when you have someone who has that maniac smile on their face. Yeah, that's true. That's right. Monaco. Yeah. They're like, aha, yeah, tell me more, please. And you're like, you think they're crazy because they might be crazy. Yes. And I say to be careful of smiling for attraction, but I also say, don't hold a smile because you think it makes you more likeable. Because actually that comes across as more inauthentic and more disingenuous when you feel like you should smile. So you're holding this fake smile. We would much rather reserve a smile when you actually think something is funny, when you're sharing a story about something you actually care about. That is a much better way to interact. And it kind of hugs that line. You're not being dominant. Right. You're not not smiling at all. But you're not being totally submissive and passive. So in attraction cues, it's even more important. It's more important to only hold that smile for when you really mean it. And for women, especially don't give the guilty laugh. The guilty laugh. Yeah. So the guilty laugh is when a man or woman tells a joke or says something that they think should deserve a laugh, but you don't really think it's funny. So you laugh guiltily. Okay. Do you see this? I'm sure I've done it before too. Yeah. Yeah. And I can now feel myself doing it. It takes a little bit of practice getting out of. But try to notice yourself doing it. So often I find that it often happens when people make the same joke I've heard a million times before. Like for example, I'm from Portland, Oregon. And so without a doubt, if I'm at a conference and I'm like, oh, from Portland, someone maybe wanted every 20 times will go, oh, the land of the hippies. And I have a choice in that moment. I can just look at them like I'm annoyed or not a good way to make friends. Not a good way. Or I can be like. Yeah, they're both terrible. Both are terrible. And so that's an example of, and if you have a name that does this, some people have names that always have the same joke. Like Sharona. Is that anyone's name though? Probably not. It's a good name to have a bad joke. Start on the Sharona. Okay. Here we go. Like Sharona, but I don't think that's probably not anyone's name. Have you ever met a friend? No. No, never mind. It was a terrible example. I think there's a Sharona out there. I am sure. But she has to guilty laugh all the time. But there's other names that this happens with. Like movie character, TV character names, or someone's like, oh, like Katniss from Hunger Games. Try no Katniss. Your name is Kirk. Yeah. Yeah. My husband's name is Scott. And if someone says Scottie, people always like, be me up Scottie. Oh, gosh. Wow. Exactly. That never gets old. Exactly. So what I would say is, if you really want to make sure that people are not mistaking you for attraction, and on bad dates, people are laughing fake or not. That's just why they build like ability. Or break awkward tension, right? Because the laughter sort of processes any kind of tension. Exactly. It's like a massage for a social interaction. Right. Lubricant. Yeah. It makes everything go smoother. So in a situation where you're worried, I'm setting off the wrong cues or I don't have anything I'm attractive, I would actually just maybe lightly smile or verbally acknowledge the joke. So instead of, so they say, oh, the land of the hippies, like marijuana, whatever they say. Instead of me being like, which is allowing some kind of attraction, I can say, you know, actually, I, whatever my answer is and verbally answer the question as opposed to acknowledging it as a joke. Oh, wow. So you can just take all of the wind out of that one. You can take all the wind out of it. Or you can. So sometimes what I'll say is, I'm actually recovering California. So I counter it with another kind of soft joke. So I don't fake laugh. And they go, oh, really, California. And I'm like, yeah, so technically in Oregon, I'm, I'm the stuck up one. Right. And then we're in a conversation that actually is more interesting. I didn't have to fake laugh. So that's usually what I say is, oh, actually I'm a recovering California. Yeah. It moves things forward instead of just throwing the ball back to them and it keeps it professional. Right. I don't see things I'm funny. Let me keep doing it. And that's what happens. If you fake laugh, they'll keep throwing out those really silly corny jokes. And then all of a sudden you're like, are we flirting? Yeah. Like I am an unwilling participant in this flirting act. I do not want this. And then all of a sudden, when you want to leave, they're like shocked. Right. Like she's into me. Yeah. So do not guilty laugh. Good. Matt's brother, you take it verbally. And a lot of guys do this with people that are of higher social status or perceived status. It doesn't result normally in an attraction kind of thing, but it really makes you, it's some men's you as the submissive one in the mission. Yes. I will say like I'm, I've been around what my, I consider VIPs. VIPs are usually like scientists that I love. Like sure. I joke in my book that I'm obsessed with Dan Arieli. Yeah. Dan knows the story by the way. I met him for the first time and was a total giggling teenager. Just because like he's like my favorite scientist, so here at writer. And so I couldn't even help that. But being more aware of that, that's our instinct to do it. And it's totally a submissive gesture. At least helps you be like, okay, I don't want to go that way. I'd much rather have good verbal responses. And VIPs don't actually like that. Or they don't want you to make those kinds of, right. It makes the whole situation more awkward and sort of reminds them like, hey, we're not treating you like a normal person. Exactly. And you're not someone that I can even be friends with. Right. You forget dating. You've written yourself out of the available pool of peers. Exactly. Yeah. Which you don't want to do. Because normally you want to, in theory, you want to be at the same level as that person. I would try to get near it. We should have a whole episode on VIPs because I have a very, I think in business now, like if you want to really meet people and make good connection with them, it's not just like, oh, I met her once or I met him once. So we could talk a lot about VIPs and how to approach VIPs. Yeah, you're right. There is a delicate science to this because I'll, and I'm not throwing myself in the VIP pool. But to some people or fans, they might be, yes, there's people who try to, in this, you're right. This is a whole show. There's people who try to be like, I'm going to treat Jordan like an equal and they, they say things that are like borderline offensive. They're next. Yeah. And they're trying to be like, we're buddies. So I'm going to make fun of Jordan in front of all these people. And I'm like, dude, I don't know you. Yes. So that happens to me all the time. I have had, so negging. I don't know if you're familiar with that. I remember it from the, like, pick up days where you're like, oh, that lipstick looks really good on you. I think my grandma has that color. Yes, exactly. Or like, a neck that I get often, often is, oh, you're, you're nicer looking than your picture. Wow. That's super rude. I'm like, thanks. Yeah. Or someone once told me, um, oh, you're nicer than that. Like you're nicer looking than your picture. Your picture is way better than that. Nice to make sure that or that. You someone once told me I'm nicer than I look or I'm not as bitchy as I look. Oh, you don't. Yeah. That's really for that. And I do have RBS. I have resting bitch face. So anyway, I've never seen that on you for the record. Maybe it's because you're always happy to see me. Thank you. It's true. And so like, that is a neg that I get a lot. And I think that that's exact. I get it from those kind of people who want to be like friends, but we're not friends. My friends would never say that to me. No. Yeah. That's a good point. It's an attempt to be like, we're going to be broy with Jordan. Like my friends don't say mean shit to me. They just don't. We just don't do that to each other unless we deserve it. But you wouldn't know that because we're not friends. I also, I wonder if men's and as I see, like they like are very physical with each other. Yeah. Like I'll see like men who don't even know each other that were like, shake their shoulders or like punch each other in the shoulder. I'm like, why would you do that? Does that happen? It does, especially with immature guys or like people who relate on. Let me think about this. It's an immaturity thing because I used to do it a lot when I was more shy and awkward because if I didn't know what to say, I'd be like, bam. And some people would be like, why did you just hit me really hard? And I was like, I don't know. Guys do this on TV and I don't know what to do with myself. Right? That's how he's supposed to be. But I also noticed there is this physical dominance thing that happens with guys and they'll be like, oh man. And they'll like, and I don't even want to do this to you because it's so awkward. They'll put the your neck in the crook of the arm and drag you in almost like a headlock. Yeah, nobody should do this to a female By the way, it is way too aggressive, but guys will do that to each other and I'm like I don't know you You are literally attacking me and I'm freaking out right now That's what I've seen and I have not seen it done with actual guy friends I usually see it done with some kind of a different time like ooh, that's Yeah, that's we don't do that don't do that no headlocks No like and if you grab someone on the shoulder you really have to know them well enough like if I if I do this This is fine with friends, but if I'm like gripping you and shaking you back and forth again I would never do that with a female. I would only do that to a guy. I've known for a long time And I'm really happy to see them So I'm actually a good point. So what you should never do don't verbally. I think is um also paths So like padding is like a very um submissive. It's like I'm dominant to you So I don't know if you've ever seen this happen before but like even like the kind of like kind of pat on like the shoulder like Yeah, you're you're fine little one. Yeah, that's incredibly awkward It's very very demonstration. I've seen actually bosses do it to employees And I think they do it well meaning I think like I'm acknowledging you non verbally good job But actually it's very much like a owner and a dog. Yeah, never do the pat ever ever ever So what is acceptable then we've basically ruled out almost every single kind of physical touch Basically just don't even look at people mirror mirror touch my favorite is mirror touch So mirroring is its own very delicate science because I hate when body language experts are like oh like if they're sitting like this Yeah, so I'm like oh okay Like this now and like it's having a conversation It's it's so awkward and like it's so rarely done right But I do like the idea of bids so dr. John Gottman is a researcher or major family counselor And he has the idea of bids that couples especially but everyone okay You offer a request for a bid so I might say To my husband how do I look that's a bid for affection for Reciprocation for acknowledgement he can say you look great honey, right? That's a received bit And you say not as bitchy as you do on the cover of your book. Yeah, I The ding ding chan. Yeah, that's not how that yeah, but I'm bunch. Yes. I did it. Yeah. What did ding ding chan That is the Chinese equivalent I just speak a little Mandarin. So that's what I came from earlier today. Okay. Yeah, so He knows that's a bit or a quest this happens in friendships and relationships all the time You or even networking right with someone can say you know a question or they make eye contact or they make a nonverbal bit Every time we do an interview something funny happy and I can't stop laughing sitting Zingtong Still going on still going on that one. Tom needs tea It does a special kind of tea in Chinese. Yes, nice. I appreciate you Trying to get my brain back into a logical mode so I can stop laughing continue the conversation You can always laugh all right, so bids so so bids so I think bids happen all the time we should be better at recognizing them and this is something that I preach and teach a lot Which is any small bid that's offered should be taken with gratitude and held and received so for example If someone does this to you whether talking that's actually a bid so reaching out and touching my Yeah, reaching out teaching an arm or um, you know Putting a arm on the back or even like you know putting an arm on a hand if like you're talking women will do this Can you do this with me just so yeah, so if you hold up both both of your hands like this like like let's say that you're holding your glass Or networking women will sometimes do this where you just shared something really personal with me and I'll hold both your hand go Oh, I'm so sorry or oh, I know this it's almost a way of having a hand hug I like that and if you're wondering what we're doing watch the video embedded in the show notes. It's really good It's a hand hug. It's a yeah, you can't get that anywhere else Here's another hand hug you want to see it? Yes, that's a hand-tuck. That's a hand-tuck Totally sure what to do there, but I'm going to be grand straight and then put your family back That's a tiny little hand-tuck. Yeah, yeah, okay, so so that is anytime someone reaches out and touches It is a bid for connection for affection and I like mirroring that bid with a reciprocal touch So either you can touch the hand that they touched you with so if they put their hand in your shoulder you then Like tap my hand. Oh, yes, right? That's a way of I receive it You receive it or you can then later or immediately then also reach out and given that touch back So I try to only do touch or have dicks as reciprocal bids as a way of saying I feel you I hear you we're on the same page So how do we know who starts then if we're only reciprocating touch? This is a personal rule of mine I try not to be the first to break the touch out of respect for people who don't like touch I have been burned one and every 30 times I used to touch you know first and you'll get someone who really doesn't like it and it's really awkward really I feel like I've just been mostly oblivious of that and or I probably you know what known that's not entirely true I have done that a lot and when someone recoils, I usually start Marginalizing them in the conversation So if I'm talking with three or four people and I touch the person next to me and they're uncomfortable with it I will Immediately start talking with other people in the interaction. Oh, you punished them. Yeah, I basically punished him for it You take the video throw on the floor and you step on it. I'm like look you you're rejecting my touch. You are you're shunned That's option one. Yeah, that's not nice. That's option one So I'll tell you the moment I decided I've never done this again. There was a moment I don't think I'm sure this is for so I was pitching a television show at a major network when this is when I was living in Los Angeles And it was a major major meeting and a bid network that you've heard of before and the booking executive We had this great meeting at the end of the meeting It was a long meeting was like an hour and I was talking about very personal things and so were they and what they wanted And really well and he reaches to say goodbye and it was one of those moments where I didn't know if he was going for a handshaker hug And I felt the meeting went really well. So I said oh, I'm a hugger and he goes well, I'm not oh Out Not that he just like it was like your big what he and he then he stood there limply while I It was oh my goodness and I didn't get the show and I have no idea that I didn't do it But I swear it did I swear I left the worst last impression and I I was like sweating afterwards I felt so bad and I and I from that moment on I was like I am never first touching I'm always making sure that I respect it because like maybe he had like some you know people have trauma I mean it was it was rough and so I thought to myself you know what for anyone who's out of Neu trauma I'm always going to respect them and let them touch first. I'm surprised but he said I'm not and then you just hugged him anyway. I was already here. I was already I was like okay, so put your hand. I was like wait this and I was like oh I'm a hugger. I'm not a hugger. That's where it was. We were like already. You're assaulting me. Yeah, that's what it was and I was literally hugging him while he like limply So it in my arms. I feel the creepy crawly. It was it was horrible And so that's what I say my advice is to try to wait if you can But if you're very very a touchy person and that's how you interact with someone It could be actually going back to your option one. Yeah, maybe that's a way that you can test people out Yeah, sure. Although and I will say in professional settings touch far far less than in personal settings Yes, please because in personal settings I can always go whoa I made that person really uncomfortable There are virtually no consequences as a result. But if you're closing a real estate deal and you hug someone And they're like wow that was incredibly awkward Now well congratulations on you meeting your new boss and totally Exactly or me not getting into a television show right because I had someone wrong Yeah, well I guess you're gonna have to go crush it on YouTube Yeah, which screw you or whoever that was It was an NPC. Okay, God I'm looking at me. I'll tell you what it was. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm like I definitely get to three to three letter. Oh that narrows it down Yeah, I got it now Vanessa, thank you so much. We have hours of this stuff. We're gonna do a lot more Yes, because every single thing we I feel like we create together is Magic called magic is gonna say magical, but then I thought it's the day ding-shaw Is it ding-ding-shaw? I'll get a special tease. Firstail at Jordan Harbourger.com and finds people.com. Thank you. Thank you All right, I'm always a big fan of you. It's get to hang out with a friend and to get to create some great stuff For the Jordan Harbourger show listener family great big thank you to Vanessa Her book by the way is called captive eight. You've heard me talk about it before I highly recommend going and grabbing that one She just she really just knows this stuff upside down. We're gonna have a lot more from her of course How could we not if you enjoyed this one? Don't forget to thank Vanessa on Twitter That'll be linked up in the show notes for the episode at Jordan Harbourger.com/podcast Tweeting me your number one takeaway here from Vanessa van Edwards I'm at Jordan Harbourger on both Twitter and Instagram man. I wish I'd started doing Instagram earlier I just started it and man. I just everyone is on there And it's fun It is fun. I never thought I would be taking pictures of stuff But now that they allow videos I can goof around on there So before warned there's a lot of content on there that I put out But there's also a lot of stuff that you know if you don't if you're in it for the content and you don't like my personality I don't know why you listen to the show, but you're gonna get a heavy dose of that on my Instagram So if you if you're just in it for the worksheets stick to that The speaking of which those worksheets are always in the show notes Jordan Harbourger.com/podcast This episode is produced and edited by Jason de Philipo Show notes are by Robert Fogarty booking back office last minute miracles and flight accommodations to Portland by Jen Harbourger I'm your host Jordan Harbourger All right, review us in iTunes. So it's a nice written review if you would we're getting some We're getting some flack in there. 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