Value Realization by Utilizing Process Mining with Jean-Marc Erieau, MANN+HUMMEL

mining your business podcast. We are back from outer space. I just walked in to find you here with that sick look upon your face. Yaku, are you feeling okay? No, I have a cold Patrick. I'm sure you will survive. Now we have a guest that isn't petrified about their process mining initiative. Sean Mark Oliyo, Director of Process Mining at Manin Homo, joins us on the podcast today to give his insight about how new process mining initiatives are assessed and implemented. Let's get to it. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a third try at the recording of a new episode of mining our business with today's guest. Our podcast has been pretty much filtered out through our guests VPN. I hope you got the fun because Manin Homo is in the business of making filter devices. After three solo episodes where we are talking about accounts, payable process and change management, we thought it's about time to actually bring another guest on the show. We will be speaking today with Sean Mark Oliyo, Director of Process Mining and Execution Management at Manin Homo. Sean Mark, welcome to mining your business podcast. We are really excited to have you on the show. Thanks a lot for having me. I'm pretty much excited and happy to be here again. Again, exactly for the third time I guess. No, second time actually. It is what it is. Technical difficulty sometimes happen. This is, you know, we live in digital age, we need to put up with it, but I'm still happy that we can do that. And actually an interesting thing happened in between those two recordings because after the first attempt on our recording, we met you together with Patrick on October fest in Munich. So I would just like to say here again that it was very nice to meet you there. And how did you enjoy this famous Munich festival of beer? It was nice. I mean, there was not the big chance to have this in the last two and a half years. And that's why, of course, I joined it to also get to know you on that site. That was nice. So, Sean Mark, let's jump right into our topic today. You know, we usually start asking our guests about their humble career beginnings. And with you, I have decided that we could do it actually the other way around. You have been a director of process mining since April 22. And I was wondering how did you end up in this position in the first place? That's a really good question. Sometimes I wound on myself. No, you know, the story about my digitalization approach was starting more or less in 2020. I had the chance to relocate with my family to China in 2017. So I spent three years in China. But beginning of January, it was actually end of January 2020, we stranded somewhere outside of Southeast Asia with my family because China was closing the borders. And after, of course, spending a couple of weeks in that region, we decided to come back. And this was more or less the starting point. So I was coming back to Manon Humil in Germany. And then I had the chance to take over supply chain digitalization as I'm a supply chain or logistics guy since the beginning. That was, of course, a big opportunity to learn all this stuff. And yeah, that was actually the starting point of my approach. I was part of one analytics initiative where we created a very interesting platform. And there was a second topic what we started then. It was we called it an innovation and ideation gem. The topic was there that we asked all our 22,000 employees what kind of ideas do you have for digitalization? What kind of projects are you running out there? And this was done in a very nice approach 72 hours round the clock moderated from different teams in Asia and Europe and Americas. And it was very nice because he collected a lot of nice ideas. I think 1,400 different projects and ideas and stuff you would like to implement. And yeah, my big learning was because I was responsible for the hard link to a supply chain and logistics. My learning was that you need to have a kind of a standardized process environment to get all these ideas somehow implemented in a business case. And then I had to learn that we have more than 50 or 80 different goods in processes. And that was my learning why we then went into a POC together with process mining. So that was the starting point getting an understanding about the standardization level of our company. And then to start a POC with in that case alone. So we moved into the POC, learned a lot about us and Manon Hummel. And sometimes it was quite shocking. But yeah, but this is as I learned with many, many companies the same. Yeah, so everywhere you you, you maybe have a lack of standardization. And then yeah, I had the chance to basically convince our management to move into a bigger approach to run a global program now together with process mining and bring this technology. And then you tools like the execution management to our group. So that was more less in a condensed way. How I was ending up now in process. My mining and this is again a starting point, of course, to move forward for my personal career. A lot of questions here already. I see Patrick is here to ask. I'm itching. I'm itching. So the role of global supply chain digitalization, right, is what am I supposed to imagine here? Is it just a matter of adding a bi tool or a process mining tool on top of what's already there? Or is it more also attaching or digitalizing some process in the supply chain that isn't attached anywhere or isn't connected to some system at all? Like what what are all the the responsibilities that this that this role entails? It was even more a holistic approach because by doing this analytics projects, we took the chance to also set up a global organization being able to run and implement these analytics. So when we started, it was back in 2019 even when this project started, we had no organization for doing analytics or at least not in a structured way. And this is something which was then growing with these use cases, we implemented. We had a nice team sitting in Singapore still sitting there. Today we have even four locations doing digitalization stuff around the globe. And while doing this analytics platform, everyone was also of course learning how to manage these projects. So we learned how to run agile projects. We learned how to read SQL coding, how to even I was even doing some Python training just to get an understanding on if you talk to a development guy or back and guy. I mean, you need to understand a little bit the wording, the technology behind to follow because otherwise you are lost. And that's why I say this two years while going through these projects was very interesting because that was also basically the base to then move into process mining because that's of course very closely together. Of course the process mining technology is different, but basically you're still setting up a data pipeline. You need to combine information tables and joins and then of course you're getting all these insights. I wish more managers, whereas eager as you in learning those things that are in the behind because it would ease the discussions very often quite significantly. However, the question I have is about that big workshop that lasted for a couple of days and that essentially all of the employees attended as well and they were basically asked to provide some feedback on the digitization project. How often was even this topic of business processes and business process management brought up and how did you even end up with selecting this one specifically? There was not the topic that end-to-end process management was popping up. It was more that we had nice interesting tools to put on top of the running processes, but the problem was that by having not a standardized base within these processes, of course, then you have problems to connect to. What I want to say is if you realize that you are making a goods receipt maybe by 20 different transactions and SAP, then of course you have a problem. That's exactly the case. Here I also know that many companies have the same problem. I can tell that we have thousands of transactions developed by Manon Hummel and this is the same with other companies in our size. We are running as you know, 4.2 billion sales. There's a lot of power behind and IT organization, but there are also a lot of specific developments in each and every country and this is of course something we need to understand. Now a question actually regarding now you being in this position of a director of process mining at Manon Hummel, you have basically a background in logistics and the general project management and supply chain and so on and so forth. In my journey, I've been usually dealing with people that had the back in finance or procurement just because of the project that I usually worked on. What I'm trying to ask here is, do you think that having this logistics background and supply chain background where everything is driven by processes like significantly because you know if you're paying light for invoices, you might not notice as clearly as when you're delivering your goods light or when you have some problems in your supply chain. Do you think that just this general understanding is maybe giving you personally some edge compared to let's say other people by already having this process focused mindset? I would say because I was of course, I mean a couple of years ago I was doing SAP implementation that was of course something that was very beneficial to understand processes and then doing supply chain in the different areas or being close to production operations. This is helping you to get an understanding about end to end. Of course it's not helping you to understand AR or AP processes in the details but at least you understand that there's inventory or working capital in between and that if you of course can manage somehow lead times or you can reduce the lead times in your operations then of course it's having intact. So I think yes coming from logistics and having this supply chain overall holistic approach is helping. Now do you think that you were in logistics and now you are the director of process mining in execution management now you get to experience or you know see the other processes like order to cash and p2p and all these things in action is this a bit of a hurdle for you or how do you adjusting to this new role of general process mining are at man and homo. I mean later on I think we will touch a little bit how we are managing this project but basically I'm sitting together with the teams with a different stream so we have a team taking care of to see team for p2p and then of course we are sitting together to understand the insights we are getting out of the dashboards or whatever use case we are talking about and then of course we need to understand then the impact on the processes by the dashboard. This is somehow linked of course to later on realizing some savings or doing some changes in the process. Can I ask now that you're in this position, this is a two-part question, what do you like the most about it and what stresses you out the most about it? I like the most that I can learn a lot yeah so as I said with the digitalization part, getting a better understanding of the field around digitalization and process excellence but also to understand how processes are really running in the background that's something which is very interesting. I mean it's also tough to go through but it helps you a lot to understand and to end the impact on what you are doing. What is stressing me a lot? It's not really stress I would say it's a it's the positive thing that you need to adjust somehow your expectations to the different areas because if you think about let's say in AP process this is I'm not saying simple yeah but this is compared to an order management process with I don't know 25 different changes you can put on the order there's a huge complexity behind and you need to understand of course what are the changes what is the reason what is the root cause so there's a lot behind and compared to that there are sometimes simple use cases where you can easily of course get some value done yeah so it's a positive one so adjusting to the different areas and understanding really what is the content of a process and what is maybe also delivered already by Salonis for example when it comes to standard apps that actually brings me to a very interesting question you mentioned the expectations expectations it's something that I think has to be handled from the very beginning with our customers and with anyone who's applying process mining because it ranges from I don't even know what this technology does all the way to you know process mining will solve all my problems what were your personal expectations going into the first POC back in 2020 and what were maybe expectations also for more colleagues or your employees or your managers I was starting with a POC journey basically with the the former approach of doing of course process mining so meaning later modeling visualization the process and then of course understanding how the processes are running so that was my starting point that was also my expectation and what I learned is of course there's a huge complexity behind yeah so you have problems with the data quality you have problems with timestamps across your systems and that was something I was really not expecting so the part where you put a lot into validation this is something we just don't need to underestimate was a learning for me it's not that you take it from the shelf I would say you know you're not installing that app and then everything is fine you still have to spend time on validate the data and that was maybe I was not expecting that we would put so much effort into validation but this is exactly what I said it's depending on a process where you are starting off now if you start with a p2p maybe it's easier because this is maybe I introduced hundreds or thousands of times but a good-received process this is a little bit more tricky yeah even if you think what can be tricky with a good receipt but I've done one or two of those myself and I have my hats off to you for starting with the good-received one yeah that was a big learning I would never do it again okay that was gonna be my question I mean looking back out of to for like how many processes and which type of processes have you implemented since and if you were to go back and pick one to start with which one do you think would be the most beneficial and has the biggest learning effect and that can prove the POC I mean we started beginning of this year with a project and since then so since six months now I think yeah we introduced order management and AR we have purchasing with AP we have warehouse management we are now starting with production planning so we have already a lot of data models and a lot of reports yeah yeah exactly so I would not maybe not change a way of how we have done it so far but I would maybe spend a little bit more time on the user story creation and then to match it to the values where I'm saying this because maybe I need to explain a little bit our MVP approach so means minimal viable product we start really to say okay let's go for all to see let's spend five weeks of implementation resources and let's really big at the beginning have a clear picture on the scoping and on the user story so what is what do you really want to achieve with having a data model and the dashboard and what are then the actions you are driving in your organization because without the action there's no value you are creating yeah so that's why we we said at the beginning we will not start into an implementation without having not a clear picture on the value you're maybe then later on creating and this is sometimes quite difficult because then you have to think about and to end process what is the impact on the organization but it's a change what is maybe also the assumption so when you think about rework what is a rework rate today yeah what is maybe the change rate what is whatever yeah and but this helps at least to focus on value creation and not to create just 20 dashboards and then you don't really know how to use these dashboards in the organization we will definitely come back to that because it's also a big topic of our today's discussion I have one more question actually before we get there though and that was where you already coming with this mindset of we have to create a value of our first pilot and was it basically maybe a condition to keep going on the initiative because I see it also with other organizations that there is maybe a little pushback at the time when the first POC is ending or maybe the first implementation of the process and you know suddenly there is a lot of acceptance and a lot of realization that well this process might in general probably take a little more time and a little more effort and what I'm trying to ask now is how was it in a man and humus whether you guys were also so dedicated that regardless of how the first project will go we will also jump on other processes or whether you maybe had some major success with the first one that everybody got more appetite for more processes yeah I mean that's why I said at the beginning I would spend more time on really value creation maybe understanding more the DS is situation because we do have some nice user stories where you are just changing a little bit the process and then you are really creating already from day one some savings yeah so this is in the area of dispute management for example where we easily created some value on the other side if you move into a process like order intake automation rate yeah having for example now 60 different locations managing globally order intake and a big GPS means a shared service center and then of course it's creating a huge complexity when you want to drive change in the organization because then you I said it at the beginning we are doing 4.2 billion if the 4.2 billion are running through a shared service center then it's easier to leverage changes but if the 4.2 million are running through 60 locations then of course it's quite difficult because then you have to talk to 60 different organizations yeah so and that's something you need to keep in mind then when you you are thinking about the actions you need to read it then bring this change to the organization and then you need to discuss a lot why we cannot optimize why is that why is that yeah and that's why with some use cases it's easier than with others I would say and now actually coming back to this MVP this minimal viable product where you're trying to really create a value from the day one I really love this concept I have to say because in many implementations have been part this is usually the other way around you go into the scoping workshops and you ask people where do you think or what part of the process you think you have the biggest pain points what do you want to focus on you you get a huge list of everything that's probably a problem in an organization and then you just go fully in on implementation and only once you create these use cases and doesn't measure what kind of process it is you start asking questions okay so let's actually take a look let's x-ray it let's see what is behind that and is it truly a problem and then it can happen oh wow it's either way worse than we thought it is or it's actually not such a big problem let's take a look at something else my question is how do you go into this this mode into the value framing even before you start implementing it or you know agree on the implementation and yeah let's start with this question how do you even start with such an initiative yeah so when we are going into an MVP we are discussing in the in the first week of course what could be the user story and what could be then the impact we are having in the organization for example are going into order management and change rate or rework rate then we are estimating a starting point and then we are also estimating okay how many minutes are we maybe spending on each and every change and then you can easily create a formula to get an understanding if this is now a reasonable value or not what is also a learning here I would say is that if you ask sometimes the business then you get an answer which is often linked to a transactional problem so we are just looking into one piece of a process and this is then sometimes driving you quite deep into the details and then there's not really the business case anymore behind because you are just talking about a transactional step the question sometimes I have a feeling that we need to go two stems back and ask okay what is the basic idea of managing orders yeah what is the business impact and the working capital you have now in the process and then to re-ask the question again saying okay how can we then have an impact on the process and maybe then the working capital of the cost because otherwise you might go into transactional problems as I said and then you think maybe in automation whatever but then you have maybe a value of 20k over here and this is not really worth to start with because we are looking for bigger numbers of course now I had a big question so if you look at these estimates that you do with your team you write your user stories you kind of like you said guesstimate the value behind this this strategic problem where there ever instances where you looked at specific problems and your estimation was right on the money and also on the on the contrary did you ever have a problem that was completely outside of what you thought would be true either higher or lower yeah and I'm assuming that that's that's the case can you share a little bit yeah we're of course both situations we we saw that maybe here we have a huge number of rework or changes and then we had to understand okay these changes they occur but you don't have really an impact so means that the the assumption we did at the beginning was valid in terms of changes but not valid when it comes to do I have as an organization impact on these changes think about now material shortages around the globe and this is something you you will not change you might mean you can try to save the situation somehow but it's not really that you have here a big impact yeah so in some cases the use case is just dropping away and in other cases we had to learn okay there's a lot more behind so it's in both directions and this is valid that's why we we start with an MVP we start maybe with two free user stories maybe with a fourth one but then we just focus really on these free user stories and try to implement them within five to seven weeks so why five to seven for a standardized one like an O2C we said we spend five weeks for maybe not so standardized one like warehouse management process we said okay let's put an additional second sprint of two weeks making seven weeks until yeah so if you were to look at some activity that is fairly close to close to the case that you're trying to analyze if you're looking at PTP you're looking at the PO item and you can essentially look okay if is made automatically then you know it's like 40% automatically created 60% manual if I want to get that to 80 I say so many manual costs so much employee cost per year done that's an easy formula do you also take into consideration far reaching ripple effects of you know maybe making a process more efficient like if you make the purchasing process more efficient that will have some sort of you know ripple effect further down the line maybe to your order management or your production or things like that right they can have knock on effects do you accurately quantify those problems as well or is that something that is a little bit too far no I mean we linked our approach of course to our upcoming S4 HANA transformation so this is why we our strategy we defined last year was on one side to implement process mining to get some optimization done now yeah to to find opportunities in a process but on the other side of course also I'm supporting now the S4 transformation so we are doing since two years some analysis and workshops on these topics and we are now kicking it off globally and Salonis or the platform will help us to create visibility in all these different processes I mean ha we started 20 years ago with our own developments and this will be a journey to get this somehow consolidated to a future stand more standardized process environment and that will be a ripple effect I'm quite sure that by doing this we will help our process organization to move into a more standardized environment I still want to get back to this MVP concept I still a couple of more questions the next one would be who are the people who are deciding or even creating these use cases is it you and your team or do the business users actually approach you and tell you I want to implement this because I have this and that problem and now you quantify it for me how does this process look like at the beginning it was of course me starting that discussion so I have somehow the role of course to also move through the organization and talk to all our leadership colleagues to create additional MVP and tell the story behind now it starts to move and move into a pool effect means our AP for example it's now our AR is now starting to to create user stories we have now more than 20 I think 25 user stories and AR environment and this is exactly what I like that this gets somehow in dynamic pulled by the business and it's also important maybe to understand how we set it up the project so of course I'm I'm managing the overall program of process mining within the group but the different streams are managed and let by business colleagues so we have very strong product or project managers on the business side at the end deciding how we want to move through and what are the priorities that's not on me of course I'm looking for the overall topping that we keep in mind that we want to create value and stuff like that but basically what what we are doing in the processes this is done by the business lead there I'm happy that we have very strong people in our organization no because this is very helpful you need people who know the process we have a well-standing in the organization having a good network not only in our headquarters but also to the different regions to Asia to Americas because this is of course yeah if you are connected well you get these topics moved much much faster through the organization understood yeah for sure I mean we just had a podcast up about episode about resistance to change and so I was wondering how is this adoption going at man and homo of these new processes and these dashboards that you're building and all these things it was adoption a bit slow or what did somebody or did people just grab on to and say this is amazing this is the best things in sliced bread like how did that adoption go I would say of course when you first have you see the what is process mining what is the technology behind what can I see everyone is really very much impressed yeah so on the other side you need to take actions to get the savings done so it's not just the inside and then you create value you know it's really that you need to change in the organization and as I guess in many organizations we have of course limited resources we have priorities we have to manage and that's why I'm totally happy how we are adapting at the moment but of course you have to balance in somehow on the development side on on the business side means it doesn't make sense that we introduce more and more processes but the organization cannot digest all these data models and dashboards and stuff that's why I say this is something yeah where I try of course to balance and to see how we are moving forward for the organization and yeah I mean we we had a very nice recording internally we are doing an internal man on whom about and we had the chance to be nominated now and yeah and everyone was participating by explaining a little bit the story behind why it's all helpful why I like salon is why I like process mind well and this yeah this is that's why I'm saying I'm happy with adoption how we are moving through this is great to hear and we are doing of course also a lot for training and communication we have a kind of an internal Facebook where we are posting the progresses the results and the next steps and stuff like that yeah so with every post you get more and more likes and more and more fairs and the next morning is going like a like a snowball yeah yeah no that's that's a approach and yeah that's why I'm pretty much happy maybe a question regarding those balancing out between the business requirement and the technical availability because this is obviously also a big topic it takes time to to build up your team of developers or also take some resources to to outsource is eventually to implementation partners and so on so forth the bottom line is that it's simply not as far sometimes development simply takes time do you have some recommendation on how to especially at the face where you are getting destruction and you're getting a lot of ideas in on how you decide what gets in and what gets out and eventually also whether you go for something within like a process mining tool or maybe you say this is the use case for a BI and you don't really need to process mining tool for that I think these are two questions for the BI tool yes of course there we have different platforms we have power BI we have we have our standard business warehouse SAC system from SAP and now we have Solonis and we have a kind of a decision matrix to understand okay what what problem is solved in which tool in the best way this is something I think we are quite fine of course there are sometimes areas where we are not 100% sure where to solve it but basically I'm saying whatever is linked to a process or process model where you're looking into and into a process that's then clearly linked to Solonis if you want to have very accurate data for your month for your reporting for finance and controlling that then I would go for SAC with business warehouse when what was the first question again please the question was how do you then prioritize different use cases what gets developed first if let's say that you have two use cases both of them are process-focused process centric how do you go back to a one that you say okay let's go with this one I guess it's also some kind of a matrix of complexity probably also the value we created a table with different type of criteria to understand okay what is the value we think we might get from the implementation what is the standard app and the maturity on the Solonis site what is also our maturity within the organization how do we think the process is standardized on a high level or low level and that was of course something which helped us to understand how we should sort these processes down okay and that actually brings me to let's say a crossroad because you pick your use cases you pick your MVPs you implant them and then you have I think two separate roles that you need to take first one being you know acting on a finding and second one is tracking tracking what has been done let's start with the first one which is this you know you see what is happening in the process you potentially see problems you can actually put some numbers on them what is the new role of you and your team and like where do you hand over to the business users you said that you have a very good support in the process owners what do they do if they find out a problem in the process and how does this change management then is executed within man and humours what we we set up with the starting with the MVPs of course that the business is always in the managing position of this stream and this means that the project manager is also aligned the targets with the business of course we are supporting we are doing a lot of communication and networking to get an understanding on the overall project but basically we are then handing over a so-called value tracking board so means for each and every use case we are creating a separate tracking board where we measure the KPI and the impact on the organization for example order management and order intake rate automatic intake rate there we are measuring compared to a baseline what is now the change we have in the organization by of course acting on the different customer connections and then you can measure the value and you can also measure if you are moving forward into the implementation or not so means if you are successful to change of course your organization or if you are not then you can really measure the value I mean there it's also it's a little bit more complex that it may be sounds because you have different types of values so you might have cost saving on material cost you might have productivity increased because you are taking out workload in the organization you might have a revenue increase because you reduce maybe the on cash discount collected by the taking by the customers so depending on the use case then of course you implement different value types and different dashboards to measure at the end your impact and this is what links back to the MVP and the value and the calculation because you need to have a clear picture on what you want to do afterwards without the actions because then you and you have your tracking dashboard to really see if these actions are taking place or not now are these actions taken place by the business user is there like a bigger change management involved in that and and also do you have some sort of targets that you sent by management saying okay our order creation right now is 40% by the end of the year we need to get to 60% is that are there some sort of hard targets that you're aiming for some hard goals yeah and do you see that on your tracking dashboard like is you know our things going in the right direction maybe not yes hopefully in the right direction no but with what we are doing is after having the MVP developed we are moving into the framing phase where we are then understanding how the impact you want to achieve at the moment we are doing this on a quarterly impact so we are saying I don't know if you you have a gap of 10% you might then split it 2.5 per quarter and that would be then the target we are bringing into the organization in alignment of course with the business so it's not that to our project or leap seer lean enterprise and advanced processes with Salonis by the way if it's not that we are just setting the target it's really in alignment with the business and to also question ourselves what is really possible yeah are we confident enough to get this savings done and I know of course there's a lot of discussion now in both directions of course yeah because everyone is having a different gut feel and as I said it's all about the actions you are then taking into in the organization and this is how we are then moving into these approaches that we are saying okay we want to achieve this and that in the next four four quarters and we are then comparing it to the KPI we see in the value tracking board when we get specific talking about the actions are you you know just going and wants to back maybe one of the biggest revelation for me while doing this podcast was realization that there is more to process mining them and business process management and process mining itself and we were already discussing technologies and tools such as other BPM tools RPAs but also this human factor as a whole and how much it impacts the whole process management so speaking about the actions do you have some general approach on how you start taking them to actually say okay so we put a value on something we confirm that the value can be reached because we have problems with this and that vendor but you know we need the action and you said it yourself that without action is just a number and so do you have some formalized generalized say approach that you take as an organization to close this gap in the process yes we do we have a governance organization per wave means for example O2C and then we have weekly alignments on the O2C level but also in each and every user story at the moment so means with the teams sitting for example in in in a plant organization or sitting in our shared service center and they are running through at least once a week line by line to understand really what is now the impact how many customers have we approached for automated audit how many we can change and this is really done on the weekly base to be then consolidated of course also in a weekly one to see how we are approaching yeah so this is I would say at the beginning later on we will bring this into a steer core on a process steer core where we then see of course the overall approach and savings we are creating but that's what I said it's really depending on the use case because in some with the order management intake huh you have to approach hundreds of customers yeah and this is this is a huge workload yeah instead of maybe having smart thresholds for disputes and then it's easily done yeah so that's what I mean that's that's something we need to understand where you really have the impact in the organization and to how many locations you have to talk to yeah so we are now starting with warehouse management and yeah I mean we have 60 locations out there this is a much higher complexity to talk all to these locations to make the trainings done to have the onboarding for all these users into Salonis to to explain the navigation to explain the US case is why we are doing is how we can increase automation rate and that's why it's really depending on the use case actually now I was gonna ask is there's a lot of widespread support among among like upper management about the adoption because I'm assuming all this arduous and really long task of just interviewing everybody and you know getting all the facts in and constantly doing the change and developing everything you know it's it comes at a price right so is there some sort of pressure to kind of get that money back in some sort of time frame and get those savings in to actually pay for all this the development and optimization and efficiently yeah yeah I mean of course there's a business case behind where we have to deliver some numbers in a certain time frame but what you said at the beginning is also important that you have of course this support from the top management and that's exactly what's happening and I think it's just not possible without so we are getting strong support here from our CEO and CEO to get this implementation done and that's why we are we can move so with that speed forward into that implementation so we as I said we did a couple of processes already in a very short term at a time and this would not be possible without not having this strong support and the good thing is when man and woman is deciding to do something then we are doing it and that's yeah kind of our how do you say mindset I would say yes and was it was it easy to get buy-in from the sea level or was this a bit of a task I mean I started with a POC and that was of course more less a kind of a submarine approach because there we need to find out what is really possible and how this is looking like and of course you need to spend some money but if you want to scale it up to the group then you have to have a kind of a strategy aligned across the leadership board and that's was something which was of course evolving in a couple of months to come really to that point to to say okay this is how we want to move forward because today I guess we cannot even think about a different approach yeah when you think about managing processes in the future and to end how you want to manage and to end processes without having a digital approach to manage them and that's why in today I cannot really imagine to do it in a different way we need to have these digitalized tools to manage the processes and to manage the performance of these processes that's why I if you would ask me now I don't know what I was thinking two years ago yeah I always have the same kind of realization like how do you even steer your organization without having this project in a place exactly a bunch of actual files I'm sure yeah that's it sound that that this is a way how do you manage it you have some KPIs in your processes and that's how you think you can yeah measure it the same like when you are going into the plant and you you are doing some you try to understand the processes you're just getting a slice of a process of processes you have not the full picture not to mention that probably only one person in the world knows how the exo file is actually calculating the numbers that you're seeing but hey at least we can steer the organization with that exactly and when the guy goes on vacation no no yeah mark it's it's really sounds at you with a man Hummel are on a amazing trajectory and hearing these these concepts that you use to drive the initiative is really really incredible and what I want to do now is actually for you to look a little back and then also into the future while looking back what are you most proud of with what you've so far achieved and it can be a very could use case but it can also be this overall organizational system because it sounds that you guys are doing pretty well yeah I think I would be I would say proud about how we started with a project and how people have been supporting and also growing with that project I would say because a lot of people are starting now to to think about end-to-end process management and this is something where I would say this is of a huge value for the group yeah and what would Jean-Marc in five years be proud of yeah I think in five years we will we will be somehow when it comes to process management a totally different company because we will then manage our processes really end-to-end in a digitized way and I would not even say it's five years I would I would challenge our organization to do this maybe within the next two because our target is already to have next quarter quarter one or two next year already the major processes in that platform and then of course it's somehow supporting the transition into S4 and across all the different units and that's why I think this will be a huge positive change to get really an understanding about end-to-end processes and there's such a complexity behind but there's simply way how to approach it with process mining I think this is I would even say it's kind of intuitive how your approach and run through and that's why I think everyone has can easily step into it sounds very ambitious yeah we are always ambitious good stay hungry well if I ever need an advocate for process mining I'm sure I know who to reach out to well Jean-Marc first of all thank you for making the time for us for the second time within a week really really appreciate it I hope we get to meet probably on CeloSphere or some other event in the future let's see about that for the rest of you dear listeners thank you very much for listening if you have any questions you can always reach out to us we are very active on LinkedIn we also have an email address at mining your business podcast at gmail.com so feel free to ask us any question that you might have as usual thank you for listening if you like us please leave us a review on Apple podcasts on Spotify or anywhere where you usually consume your podcast or even tell tell about us to your colleague your friends maybe even to your family if they are interested in process mining which well hopefully they might get some might get into a little later thank you guys very much for today's episode and Jean-Marc best of luck on your future process mining process mining career thanks a lot and hope to see you soon guys bye bye [BLANK_AUDIO]