‘UTTER Psychopaths!’ October 7, Three Years On + Is Zionism Racist?

-Dionism was always about Jewish power over other people. It was not about self-determination. It was not about equality. It was always a racially exclusive movement. -That's not actually what Zionism is to, the vast majority of the Jewish community. -The Israelis are in this sick, disgusting cult, where they believe they have to murder the Palestinians, and it's the Palestinians fall for getting murdered. And I would argue that the two people on this panel are also in that cult. -Hey, just on that point. -So you bet a run. You bet a run. This is our way, man. -Just don't let us see a lot of this. -Can I just say, can I just say, can I just say? -Oh, we're going to murder your kids! Three years ago this morning, Hamas fighters, terrorists, poured across the Israeli border to begin a gruesome attack, which has changed the world. It's a day of grief, contemplation, and anger for Israelis, for different reasons, supporters of Palestinian calls, now feel the same way. Most of the world stood in lockstep with Israel as grim details of the Hamas terror attacks became clear. The White House, the Brandenburg Gate, the Eiffel Tower, and the Empire State Building, among many other landmarks, were illuminated by the colors of the Israeli flag. Demons for the release of Israel's hostages came even for its political enemies. But that goodwill is now gone, lost in the rubble of Gaza, and while Hamas undoubtedly began this cycle of violence, Israel's callous and fanatical government is now viewed by many with equal contempt. The turnaround of public opinion should be alarming to all Israelis. More Americans now sympathize with Palestinians than them. The next candidate for president will not be judged by their devotion to Israel, but the level of their condemnation. A slew of Israel's allies have recognized the Palestinian state at the UN and the UK has hit Israel with sanctions for ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. Well, this week, Zach Polanski's left-wing green party in the UK went even further. It's members back to policy to declare Zionism as a form of racism. The timing, the wording, and the virtue signaling didn't land well with me. I thought it was wrong. But the subject is, frankly, more interesting and complicated than Zach Polanski. My first guest has written a new book which feels particularly at Benjamin Moser, author of Anti-Zionism and Jewish History. Jordan's been now in the studio. Welcome to Benjamin. You've flown in from Texas, and you've had a long journey to get here. So I breached in it. This is your book, which has described on the top by Nathan Thrall as a book of extraordinary moral clarity. Let me just view as benefit. The Anti-Defamation League defines Zionism as the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. It also states Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists support for a two-state solution as a realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike. Is that how you see it? You'll be shocked to see that I do not see it that way. That's a definition that has almost every word of it is wrong. Really? Yes. I mean, Zionism was always about Jewish power over other people. And you really, you've written about. You've said, talked about how October 7th was a horrible event, which it was, of course. But I think what you didn't say is that it was a split in the Jewish world that has been deeper and more profound than any since the Holocaust. And that's what my book is about, is about trying to explain why people said that this idea with this quite okay-sounding definition was absolutely distinct from the reality of what Zionism has always been. When did Zionism emerge as a concept, as a word? Zionism, it's interesting to say, it was actually a Christian concept. It's not a Jewish concept. And so when I write about anti-Sionist Jews, I'm writing about a tradition that goes back further among Jews than Zionism. It was about the end of the world and in the second coming of Christ and all this kind of fantasy that Christian evangelicals had in the 18th and 19th century. Modern Jewish Zionism really begins with Theodore Herzl in 1896 when he publishes this pamphlet called The Jewish State. And I had never read this book. My grandfather brought a copy of it out of Nazi Germany when he escaped in 1938. And I was very moved by it. It seemed like a sort of nice idea, sort of what you are citing in that definition. I thought Israel was sort of a nice thing. You had the Holocaust and you have Israel. And that seemed like a very neat sequence. But in fact, when I read this book, I was shocked by how bonkers Herzl was. For example, he has this fantasy only three years before he writes the Jewish State of bringing all the Jews and the Austro-Hungarian Empire into the cathedral of Vienna and having the Pope show up and convert them all to Christianity. Now, this isn't somebody who is spoken of in terms of Jewish pride. This is somebody who wants to get rid of the Jews. And everybody in my book, from the very beginning, they say this isn't about affirming Judaism. This is about destroying Judaism. And I think what we're seeing now, this break, is all these people warned about it. They've warned about it since the 19th century. 1948, obviously, is when modern-day Israel was effectively set up and created. Did Zionism change in that moment? No, I think this is really important to say. Because we think of 1948 as a beginning point. Of course, it's the beginning point of the Israeli State. But Zionism and Zionist settlement in Palestine, which was a country that was between 95 and 97 percent non-Jewish, starts at the end of the 19th century. It starts a bit before Herzl, but these are small communities. And then it really gets going in 1917 when the Balfour Declaration is issued by the British government. Which, by the way, doesn't even control Palestine. It was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. They promised this to a group in Britain that had the total income of the Zionist movement in the United Kingdom was 500 pounds. The Jews in Britain were a small minority. And the Zionists were a small minority within this minority. And Edwin Montague, who was the only Jew in the British cabinet at the time of the adoption of the Balfour Declaration, said this is going to be a catastrophe. This is anti-Semitic intent, which it was. Because all the other British government said this is a great way to clear out everybody from the East End. They didn't like the Jews. They wanted them gone. And it will have anti-Semitic effects. And now, with the rise in anti-Semitism, we see that, in fact, a hundred years later, Zionism has not solved anything for the Jews. It's, in fact, made a lot worse for all of us. The Guardian columnist Jonathan Friedland, who is Jewish, he wrote a very good column, I think soon after the war started, in which he said he could write a piece from the Palestinian perspective and the Israeli perspective. And he could do a very strong piece, arguing that one is the victim and one is the non-vegtim and vice versa. I come on, exactly how he phrased it. But it was interesting to me to see a leading Jewish commentator saying, "This is complex. This is very difficult." There's a lot going on here. And actually, depending who you talk to, you can construct a very different argument about this. Do you accept that? Yes, and I think that I don't accept that it's complex. I think it's not complex at all. I think that this was a foreign European settler movement that came into somebody else's country and boycotted them, discriminated against them, ethnically cleansed them and has now committed a genocide against them. I think that's quite. And when Israel says, "Well, this is our ancestral homeland." This is. Yeah, I mean, I'm from Houston and it's my ancestral homeland, according to the same thing. My family are entirely 100% for at least 1,000 years from Central and Northern Europe. And I have a right. I can walk in to Tel Aviv Airport and sign up to be in Israeli. And I can have rights. I can have housing. I can have subsidies. I can have free Hebrew classes. I can have all these things that people who have actually lived there for thousands of years don't have. And that just seems to me absurd. I mean, it's a crazy argument that you wouldn't accept in any other country. I mean, if you walked into somebody's house and said, "Excuse me, Pierce," I actually lived here 3,000 years ago. But if they said the whole tenant of our religion goes back to this area, this land, what do you say to the argument? Well, I mean, this is something that Rabbi Tamaris, who's the first person in my book, talks about. All religious Jews have understood the importance of Palestine to our history and our religion. That's not the same thing as setting up a ethno-national state in that area. And in fact, the central tenant of our religion, the absolute foundation of Judaism as of many other religions, by the way, is thou shalt not kill. And so they said that once you come in here, you set yourselves up. You're a political people now. You're no longer a religious community. You're a political nation just like Bulgaria or like Czechoslovakia or Ireland or all these other comparisons they use at the time. What's that going to mean? It's going to mean you're going to need an army and you're going to kill people. And once you start killing people in the name of Judaism, you're overturning the very foundation of our tradition and our culture. Their argument would be, we've been in attacks ever since '48. Yeah. Repeatedly, there are a lot of people that want to destroy Israel, kill as many Israelis as possible, kill Jews. What do you say to that? Well, they don't tell you two things. First of all, they don't tell you why Jews aren't being killed and Britain Jews aren't being killed. France Jews aren't being killed in America. I mean, of course, we have intimate incidents, but not Israelis by far the least safe place in the world for Jews. Why is that? And the other thing they don't tell you is who began this terrorism? So in my book I talk about Jacob Israel to Han, who's a homosexual Jewish poet from the Netherlands, who becomes very enamored of Zionism, who becomes the first Dutchman to immigrate to Palestine under the British mandate in 1919. And he very quickly figures out, in fact, there's a lot of people here and they're not Jews. And he writes these very critical articles and to make a long story short, they kill him. Three shots to the chest as he's exiting a synagogue. Nobody tells you about who started terrorism in Palestine. It was the Zionists and it was even before that and it affected Jews as well. as well as Palestinian. - How does this end? How do we get to a place where there's peace in that region? - Well, this is very hard. I mean, as I describe in the beginning of the book, I was a liberal Zionist for my whole life. I was a two-state guy. I was a both-sides guy. I only became really an anti-Zionist, which is someone who says not only that Israel has problems, you know, Britain has problems, America has problems, everybody has problems. Israel is not only a country that has problems, Israel is a country that is a problem. That felt very radical to me. And when I went back into this history after October 7th, trying to sort of find out who were these people that I had never heard from. I never knew there were anti-Zionists my entire life. I realized that there's this history of people who've warned and warned and warned, and they've tried to find these other paths. And I think now that we have experienced this genocide, I think there may have been other paths possible. At some point, now I just have to throw out my hands. So do you ever envisage a two-state solution? No, no. I think it's impossible. I talk about Maximo down someone who's a great French scholar who spoke 50 languages, and his parents were killed in Auschwitz. And he said that what he had not understood earlier was that the settler colonial nature of this state, which is this foreign settlement coming in and driving out the indigenous people by its very nature. And in comparison with other settler colonial entities from Rhodesia, to South Africa, to Ireland, to the United States, it means that these places get themselves into a state of perpetual warfare. They can't just say, OK, here's your border. Here's our border, which is what normal states do. They're inherently expansionists. And this is what we've seen. Israel has conquered areas of Syria, of Lebanon, of Palestine, and they're saying that we want to go from the Nile to the Euphrates. I mean, this is a quite common thing to hear in Israeli media now. So I don't know. I can't see it ending in any way, but a catastrophe. But at the same time for me, it's been a real consolation to have the company of these people. Some of them are alive, a lot of them are dead. But just to know that there's an alternative tradition, there's a peaceful Jewish tradition of living together with unequal terms with everybody. You want to pull a surprise in 2020 for your biography of Susan Tontag, called Tontag, her life and work. So you're obviously extremely eminent writer. But the books had some push back. The New York Times review said, "It paints a fraught world in black and white, overstates Israeli and Palestinian roles as evil perpetrator and a virtuous victim, and waves away the historic presence of Jews in the Middle East." What's your reaction to that? Absolutely correct. I never really like to agree with the haters. But when you write about Zionism, you know, you're going to get the haters. But I do think it's black and white. I do think that it is a project that was racist and inception and talking about the Green Party and this thing. I don't necessarily think Zionism is racism, but I do think Zionism is racist and it has been from the very beginning. I think that there's a colonizer and there's a colonized. There is a victim and that doesn't mean that every single person in Israel is involved. Although, you know, it's a popular army, hundreds of thousands of people have served in this army and it's a quite small country. Benjamin Moser, author of Anti-Zanism and Jewish History. Thank you very much indeed. My pleasure. Well, the vote on declaring Zionism as racism has split the party with some members considering leaving altogether. Chair of the Jewish Greens, Vivian Lichensstein, said this after the motion was passed. I don't think it's helpful. And it doesn't make any difference whatsoever to Palestinians in Gaza who have suffered devastation orphans left behind. It doesn't make any difference to Palestinians who are currently suffering or were currently being attacked and killed. Well, do you want to meet two debate all this in the studios? Owen Jones, author of the new book, The Fall of the West. And US is really journalist and broadcaster Emily Schrader plus check new, your founder and CEO of Young Turks. I'm praying to you, commentator Shavos Kastinbaum. Well, welcome to all of you. A stellar panel, whoever I had one. Emily, I'd love you to see you here in London. Let me just start with your reaction to what Benjamin Moser was saying there, about his conversion, really, I guess, from being a proud liberal Zionist to somebody who believed that the concept of Zionism is inherently racist. Obviously, I reject his opinion about that to me and to the majority of the Jewish community Zionism is the right to self-determination of the Jewish people in their homeland, the land of Israel. It is not mutually exclusive. It does not denote that no one else has a right to self-determination. It does not require destroying anyone else, despite how a lot of people use it today to mean disagreement or opposition to the Israeli government or the state of Israel. That's not actually what Zionism is to the vast majority of the Jewish community who does either identify a Zionist or identify with Zionism. Owen Jones. Well, I mean, the bits that are always missing from that definition is the self-determination of a people at the expense of another. Nobody should object to the self-determination of any people that should be a basic right. Because Israel have a right to exist. Has that been a question? I know this is always an easy, but under international law no state has the right to exist. People have the right to self-determination of the protections. If we said that, then we'd argue against Scottish independence because we say the UK has a right to exist and that's contradicted by Scotland's proceedings. But I don't accept that. What I'd say is, look, when the Zionist movement was promised a homeland in the area of Palestine, the nation of Palestine, 90% were Arab Christians and Muslims. That was inevitably going to be their expense. The first manifesto of Zionism in 1897 defined-- Why were 90% of Zionism-- Why were 90% Muslims and Christians there? Well, if you really were to go there, Emily, because a large number of Jewish people converted to Christianity in the time of many centuries earlier. No, it's because of multiple occupations and expulsions and yes, colonial movements that took over the land. A large number? What was it before? This was a land before Christianity. Oh, that's right. It was Jewish. This is why I think Zionism in these arguments wraps itself up in knots. Firstly, we can't start redrawing the borders of the world based on what happened 2,000 years ago. That's generally just an absurdity. The second point is, what actually happened? It's large numbers, as I've said, did convert to Islam in Christianity. Large numbers of Palestinians are now being murdered by Israel and the directs of the directs descendant of the Jewish people. All the Jewish people are from-- Ancestually, they are from that land. All is on. All is converted to Judaism and the Caucasus and the 8th and 9th century. The point is, I don't think, like my own view is, the persecution of the Jewish people in Europe, which is a hideous crime, which's culminated in the Holocaust, is not a crime that the Palestinian people should pay for. And as I've said early on, Edwin Montaguy was named earlier by your previous guest, the Jewish Secretary of State for India. He didn't just argue, it would increase anti-Semitism. He did argue that. He said he warned that it would privilege Jews of Muslims and Christians, and he feared it would cause. And this is what he said. It would mean driving out its present inhabitants. That's exactly what happened. The mass expulsion of the Palestinian people, the vast majority, in 1948. This was all-- Oh, and where's-- This was all for heritage. This was all for heritage. There's nearly 1 million Mizrahi Jews that were expelled from Arab countries. You're completely silent about this. And by the way, you say that no one has-- or sorry, excuse me, all people have a right to self-determination, right? If that's the case, then why is this resolution that we saw from the Green Party denying the right to self-determination of the Jewish people? Why does it require eliminating the other-- The first thing I said is that it does not require the denial of self-determination to any other people. The most telling thing about the Green Party resolution that we'll show you through is the leader who inspired it. Polanski didn't vote, he abstained, which I thought was an act of utter moral cowardice. Regardless of the debate, if you're the leader, and this is happening on your watch at your conference, you at least show up. He's campaigning for a crucial by-election, come on. I mean, he's-- The thing about the Greens has-- He deliberately dumped it. They are, I don't think that's true. And I actually, what I really resent at the moment is the onslaught against him and his Jewish identity, which has been repeatedly smeared and stripped away. Look, as it happens, I would prefer a one-state solution with the equal rights for all. But I don't think it's up to me to decide that. And that's one area where I would disagree with the motions, don't I? But in terms of the actual point, generally speaking, you mentioned the expulsion of Mizrahi Arabs. Well, I mean, that varies, actually. First of all, the Arabs are Jews. In some places, in some places, that did happen. For example, in Iraq, in other places, that didn't. In Morocco, you have the mass emigration of people, not violently-- That's one example. That's one example. That's a very large number of discrimination against Jews. But again, the Palestinian didn't do that. And again, this is where it always returns to. No, it doesn't. You can't have self-determination at the expense of another people. That's exactly what I said. The Palestinian didn't know what I said. The Palestinian didn't know what I was bringing in. They didn't expel Iraq's Arabs. That's exactly nothing to do with that. Let me bring in the other two panelists. Shabbos, welcome back to Uncensored. Look, this is a very emotive issue here. In very, very simplistic terms. In 1948, it seemed to me a lot of Palestinians got expelled. Then a lot of Jews got expelled, right? And there's been this battle over who's right? Anybody has to that land. And this has been the catalyst for the whole conflict ever since. I mean, that's the simple reading of it, right? OK, well, yeah. First of all, it's good to see you here. It's been a while. It is a simple definition, but I think that does it tremendous to serve as to the historical complexities. So let's be clear, there never was a country called Palestine. It never existed. The term came from the Emperor Hadrian after he expelled the Jews in 130 CE. And not only did he want to remove the Jews geographically from the land of Israel, but he wanted to disconnect their attachment. So he named it after their ancestral enemies, the Philistines. and improperly came up with this new term, a Palestinian. The only time the Muslim Arabs living in the region we now call Gaza or the West Bank, wherever offered their own state was under the Peal Commission. They said no, then they're offered their own state in 1948. And not only did they say no, but then they said we're going to wage a war. So I agree the history is complex, but ultimately this is the culmination of decades and decades of terrible Palestinian leadership refusing to put the interest of their own people above their hatred of hating Jews. In 2020, President Donald Trump offered them their own state yet again under the Peace Plan and they said no, they don't want to offer their own state, they said no, they didn't offer their own state, they said no, the river wire courts, they said no. So I agree it's a terrible situation if you're growing up in Gaza or the West Bank as an eastern civilian, but you are problematically putting the blame on the wrong people. It's not the people who want to offer them their own state. It's their leadership, continuously state, like explicitly. We don't want coexistence, we don't want a multi-racial multi-ethnic democracy, we want the eradication of the Jew from the river to the sea. It's a literal paragraph. But are we seeing, I mean, all due respect, are we not seeing a similar mentality in people like Ben Gavir and Smodridge, who have made it pretty crystal clear, they want to get rid of all the Palestinians from Gaza, all the Palestinians from the West Bank, they want much more than the river to the sea in terms of a land grab, they are actively encouraging appalling acts of terrorism by settlers on the West Bank. What's the difference? Well, I'll tell you what the difference says. The people of Israel in three weeks from now will do something that the Palestinians have been denied for the last 25 years, which is vote in an election and have a democracy. Mahmoud Abbas is 25 years into what's meant to be a four-year term. So if we want emancipation and self-determination for the Palestinian people, perhaps you can have the spokesman of Fatah, who I just debated yesterday, have him on your show and ask him, why don't you ask your boss to hold elections? I don't like Ben Gavir, I don't like Smodridge, but you know what's great about living in a democracy, is you can vote them out of office, and I'm pretty confident, if I'm wrong, have me back on your show and I will apologize, but I'm confident that the boogie man that you think the far-right BB-sepper government is will cease to exist come October 27th. And that's because, again, Israel has a democracy, people can vote in. Well, I want to bring in a check. I mean, I hope that happens. I think it's imperative, actually, for Israel as a country and for its global reputation, that that happens, because I don't think they care. Netanyahu, Smodridge, Ben Gavir, I don't think they care about the crashing fall in Israel's popularity around the world, reflected in polls, which I never thought I'd see in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see a significant majority of Americans have a negative view of Israel, but they do. They're subverting to the people of Israel in a way that the Palestinian leadership, like Mahmoud Abbas, simply aren't. That's why I find it remarkable that one Hamas, after the ceasefire. Okay, let me bring in checked. Let me bring in checked, and checked, you've been unusually patient. Congratulations. What's your view? Look, there must be a body of Zionists who have a completely non-violent, non-reactionary thought process about what it means to be Zionists, who just believe in that anti-deformation ligus, the movement of self-determination, and stay here for the Jewish people, and their ancestral homeland. Right? So, this debate about Zionism does it not depend on what kind of Zionist you're identifying as in how you articulate it. Yeah, 100%. As you and I have talked about on the show before, Pierce, there's basically four different groups. There's the people who are peace activists, who are Jewish. They've been with us from day one, they're the most wonderful human beings, constantly fighting for equality and peace. Then there's the non-Zionists who generally don't care. Then when you move into the Zionist category, there are two different kinds of Zionists. One is just someone who's casual and doesn't know the history of it, has no idea how Zionism originated, and just views it as Israel has the right to exist. If somebody says they're not Zionists, that means they want to wipe out Israel and all the Jews. Now, they got brainwashed into believing that, but they genuinely believe it and they don't mean harm by it. Then there's the radical Zionists, which are almost everyone you see on television, everyone in media, almost everyone involved in the government. Those folks believe in greater Israel. They know what the Zionist project is. It is the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians. All the way from the river to the sea is nothing, which by the way, Nanyahu is literally said and then done. But now they're talking about, oh my God, from the river to the river, from Nile to the Euphrates, so taking everywhere from Egypt all the way up to Turkey. These folks are in a cult. I would argue that the two people on this panel are also in that cult. And look, I don't want harm coming to hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. So I don't want any harm coming to anyone. But we're trying to help our Jewish brothers and sisters get out of this cult. And peers every day, somebody comes up to me, not to be fair, not every day. That's too much. But from time to time, people come up to me and say, oh, Jank, I left Zionism and now I see what it is. And I think it's done great harm to the Jewish community. So you don't have to be a fascist and a racist to be Jewish, that's nuts. And in fact, 40% of Jewish Americans think that what Israel did is a genocide, 61% of Jewish Americans believe that there were war crimes that Israel has committed. So the majority of Jews in America believe Israel has committed war crimes, 63% of them are against the current Israeli government. And they never get any coverage on television. Television is a giant Zionist propaganda operation run by radical Zionists. That's why they don't let other Jews on. They don't let the majority of Jewish Americans state their opinions, which is that they think Israel has gone far too far. And the more that people find out about it, they see the history. It turns out the Zionists helped the Nazis. That's literal. They broke an anti-Nazi boycott in 1933, which was devastating to the Jewish community. And they were hated by the rest of the Jews in the world. They helped the Nazis attack the British in the Palestine mandate, later the Lehigh terrorist group. And all of the original Zionists, sorry, it's heartbreaking to a lot of Zionists that don't know this and that are innocent and don't mean it. But the reality is they were all terrorists in the beginning. They did the worst act of terrorism in the Middle East, which was bombing of the King David Hotel. Almost all of Israel's original Prime Ministers were terrorists who believed in killing civilians. And unfortunately, ethnic cleansing and terrorism has worked for Israel. They ethnically cleanse 750,000 Palestinians in 1948. And what they learned from that was our terrorism against Britain worked, our terrorism against the Palestinians worked, and it is enabled by the West. And they have captured the West by capturing our governments. And they are helping, they're forcing Americans to finance their terrorism. And they're pretending that all Jews agree with their terrorism and their fascism when that is definitely not true. Okay. Emma, you were putting a lot of faces. I will come to you on in a second. Emma, what's your response to this? This is a very fantastical definition of Zionism that I have never heard being absolutely not. But I think Trump just kind of makes things up in his head as he goes along. A lot of, a lot of what you just heard. You can verify everyone. Check. You don't define Zionism. You can look at us. And that has nothing to do with the fact that there's a lot of opposition to the war going on now because that's not what Zionism is. Zionism is a belief. It's a belief in the Jewish right to self-determination in the land of Israel as we just defined. So why you just went on a long rant about a number of different things that don't actually have to do with what Zionism is, which is part of the problem what we're discussing now, that you think criticism of the state of Israel or criticism of the IDF and those actions is being anti-Zionist. No, being anti-Zionist is being against the self-determination of the Jewish people and only the Jewish people. It does not make a determination about the self-determination of other people, including Palestinians by the way. And by the way, in 1948 when it was declared there was no Arab Palestinian people as we see today that is not even how they defined themselves. So almost everything that just came out of your mouth is a complete fabrication made up in your own mind in order to confirm your own ideology. Just in terms of Zionism as a movement and the issue here. Because I know, as you just said, hopefully the opposition will win and so on and so forth. But this really gets the crux of the problem because there's no real meaningful difference in their approach to the Palestinians. They all support the illegal occupation of the West Bank and its settlement, legal settlement program, for example. None of them have committed to, for example, and ending the occupation of guards who are allowing its reconstruction. And actually, if you look at the history of the history of Zionism, who did the NACPA, the mass violent expulsion of the Palestinian people? Who put the Palestinians who remain there under military occupation and confiscated their land? And I'm talking about the remaining Palestinians in what is now Israel. Who did the occupation 1967 and began the illegal settlement program? It wasn't the right-wing Zionist. It was the Labour Zionist. It was those who described themselves as left-wing and some cases as social Zionists. And this is the problem. This gets the problem to what Emily said there. Nobody objects to the idea of national self-determination in its own right. If there was a land in which there was no people, no. If there was a land in which there was no people and there was a whole debate the time in early Zionism, they didn't all say it would have to be Palestine. They actually went around various different countries, including what is now Kenya. If there was a land with no people and there was a Zionist movement to say we're going to build our land here, they would not be an objection except by people, yes, who are actually anti-Semitic. In this case, the issue is there was a people there and they have rights and they have equal rights and they are just as human as you, as me, as everybody else on this panel. And that humanity has been shredded away because to build the Zionist project was based on their mass-expulsion, murderously so, displacement stealing their land, stealing their homes, and stealing their resources. And this is culminated in the genocide. That's our objection. It has nothing to do with any inherent objection to natural self-determination between Jewish people. Shabbos. Yeah, I'm going to jump in as a alleged cult member here. And actually, it's kind of ironic, because Chenk, I think we actually are kind of friendly. But I grew up on the left watching you and Anna Kasper and on the young Turk. So if I was part of the cult, it's probably when I was watching you guys. But what I will say is I'm more than happy, and I mean this journey. You're part of the young Turk's cult. Oh my God, it's even worse than we feared. I was a leftist. I'm repenting publicly on your show. But Chenk, I mean this seriously, and the offer is open to you, Owen and you peers. I mean this seriously. I will gladly take you to the Gaza envelope. And you can come to Kibbutzim, like Kibbutz Bairi, where I met when you think I want to get murdered. Great. Well, listen. I would instantly get murdered by this. That's the last time I was. So I don't think I'm getting back in here. You could tell me I'm wrong. We got to let me make the point first, and then tell me why the point is wrong. But I haven't made the point yet. I would love to shoot you. And have you meet someone named Eri to start an organization called Road to Recovery, where they took Gaza civilians into Israeli hospitals for medical care for free. I would love to meet an individual named Vivian Silver, who you can't. Because even though she was part of that organization. No, no, no. We're relatives of debt to this. I wouldn't do this. Three years ago, I would encourage you to not interrupt and show me what that is. Well, her son told people not to use her name the way you're dealing. So you should stop name on the morning of October 7th, Hamas stormed into those settlements and they took Vivian Silver and they murdered her. So when you say that the peace activists who aren't showing up, the reason they're not showing up is because most of them are dead because Hamas killed them on October 7th. All of those settlements are the most anti-BB, anti-benquevere, anti-smotritch, far left socialist. You can possibly dream of in Israeli society. And Hamas literally doesn't care because so long as you live in any area that is called the state of Israel, not the controversial settlements, not the West Bank, the entirety of the land. It is not conducive to any part where they want to plan-- All right, the Shabbos, you know, today Shabbos, I replied to some guy who had a lot of followers on X. And he was commenting on a video of utter devastation in Gaza, which we know has been 75% to 80% raised to the ground. And his only comment was, don't fuck with Israel, right? Big macho, Rambo kind of thing. And I made the point that this is exactly the kind of attitude that is making Israel an increasingly a global pariah, which makes me very sad as somebody who has always been a big supporter of Israel, who knows a lot of Israelis and likes him very much, right? It sees the crashing opinion polls about Israel and is genuinely concerned about what is happening here and the complete lack of any care about what's happening from the likes of Ben Giviris modulo. You are, in my estimation, utter psychopaths. I think that Netanyahu has gone along with them because he has to, because that's how he got power back. I know, I'm making off the whole business cycle. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. He was the problem. No, no, no. He did the dirty deal with these guys to get back into power. I said that. He's consistent with his record. But Shabbos, my question is, when you see the way the polls are going, when you see how many Americans have turned on Israel who would previously have supported them, does he not concern you? So it's a good question. And obviously you're right that public opinion has shifted dramatically against the state of Israel. But honestly, I would rather the people of Israel, I would rather the people of Israel lose the PR war and win the actual war. So like, congratulations to the Palestinian people. You have Maclamor, you have socialist on Harvard's campus, but you're unfortunately nowhere any close to achieving self-determination and freedom of movement in your own state. Why? Because you have continuously put your trust in the-- - Because of the Israeli oppressors. - And the disgusting fascists who rule over them like disgusting racist fascists. I've been incredibly respectful. I just want to finish and then you can tell me that I'm a fascist, but let me finish. There is currently a longstanding PA policy of providing financial support to convicted terrorists and their families. It's called the authority martyrs fund. And currently there's a man, Bashar Masala, who killed a US Army veteran named Taylor Forrest. He was a Vanderbilt University graduate as well. And currently, Mashallah's family is being given money by the Palestinian Authority to provide for their financial needs. I would encourage all of us if we're so concerned about the settler terrorism. If we're so concerned about the far-right BB government. And of course, the Palestinians are never responsible for any of their own actions. We would encourage the Palestinian Authority to perhaps not pay the families of terrorists who got filled American citizens. - Okay. - No one brought-- - What do you have things in it? This always comes up. - No, I've been able to say. - Can I just-- - Can I just correct, can I just explain? I would mud-- - No, let me finish. It's obvious that you're losing to finish at some point. - Let you finish, you've got done the whole fricking show. - I'm speaking of check. You really want to compare who's speaking wrong, right? I don't think that's a problem. - You talk 40% of the show, peers. Can I say something? - Yes, okay. - This is why I shout on your show. Because I never, like, all is nonstop interruptions. All right, listen. So there are a lot of nonsense has been said here. First of all, Shabos is doing a classic Zionist trick. It's what Golda Mayer said. We'll never forgive the Palestinians for making us kill their children. The Israelis are in this sick, disgusting cult where they believe they have to murder the Palestinians. And it's the Palestinians fault for getting murdered. Oh, they made us murder all their kids. 23,000 kids. Shabos had the temerity to talk about kids who need rescuing. I've talked to American doctors, including Jewish American doctors, who talk about the Israelis doing sniper shots on five-year-olds. They have murdered 23,000 children, American doctor after American doctor talking about sniper shots to the chest and to the head. That same Jewish American doctor has said, the Israelis pulled the plugs from the incubators and killed eight babies instantly when they were leaving a hospital. They destroyed all the dialysis machines in a dialysis center in Gaza. They have destroyed all of the hospitals. They will not let these poor little kids out that have actually simple things to cure that can be cured outside of Gaza, but they won't let them out. One little girl lost three limbs. They murdered Henry Job a five-year-old on purpose and the people who came to rescue her. They have been slaughtering Palestinian children from day one, and there's a reason for that, because what they want to get through to the Palestinians is, you're never going to be free and you're never going to be safe. We're going to kill your kids. - Just don't know. - So you better run, you better run. This is our line. - You better run, you better run. - Can I just say, can I just say, can I just say? - I'm not going to murder your kids. No, you can't, no, nobody can say anything, okay? I've waited the whole show to tell you this. So now all you have is these guys go, oh, it's my self-determination. Well, look at this absurdity. So I'm Turkish. Do I have a right for self-determination in the Turks, too? In general, yes. But do they have a right to self-determination in our quote-unquote ancestral homeland? Well, do you know where our ancestral homeland is? It's in Central Asia. That's where the Turks came from. If we went to the middle of Mongolia now and said, give me half of Mongolia. And I'm going to murder all the Mongols. It's my ancestral homeland. And all the Mongols made me murder their children. It's mine, mine. And the reality is when the Zionist started, as your previous guest told you, only 3% of the land was owned by Jewish people. Then when in 1947 that number was still only 6%. So in order to take all of Israel, they had to murder and ethnically cleanse. And that is why they are so vicious because they want to get it through the Palestinians' heads. You must run for your lives. That's why in 1948 they dragged bodies across the villages, dead bodies. They made them dig their own graves. They even put-- and you could verify every single fact I see here. And I want everyone to look up what we're saying. And you will find out that the Zionists on this panel are gigantic liars. And we are telling you the exact truth. And yes, in 1948, the Zionists put a dad and his son into a baker's oven. They are fascists that came from Europe. They brought their fascism along with them. They did not live there. Just only a European fascist colonizers who have done nothing. Okay. Let me deal the Palestinians. Let me call the kid. And they keep stealing all of their farms. And they're land to jangling, destroying more of our farms. And they store more olive farms. Okay. Don't all talk of once. I want to break this out. I want to make his point. That I come to. Because this is where racism, you probably see leads to. There was a poll last year which found that 70% around, of Jewish Israelis believed there were no innocence in Gaza. No innocence. That includes children. It includes babies. It includes women. It includes elderly people. But this is why you end up in a situation where the UN Independent Commission found that Israel had deliberately targeted children, which includes, for example, sending those drones in one case to shoot a 10-month-old baby in the head while she was breastfeeding. This is why you ended up with Hinrajab and her 6th son of 4 cousins, or being murdered by a tank, which was a few metres away. And then the paramedics slaughtered after coordinating their movements with their IDF. It is why the Nick was his name, Guthrie, the brilliant surgeon from Oxford. He served in Gaza 3 times. Testify that every day Palestinian teenagers, young men, 12-year-old 13-year-old boys, and young men, each day a different part of their head or their chest was attacked on one day. Or on one day it was their stomach and then on another day it was their testicles. He said the game was being played by Israeli soldiers. Or are the New York Times published a report which found dozens of US-based medics who served in Gaza, testified about Palestinian children being shot in the head of the chest. But they no longer see them as human beings. But they see them as all of them as potential terrorists to be killed. - Okay, okay, but just to be, hang on, hang on. - Please hang on, please. - Hang on, please. - Hang on, please. - Hang on, please. - I'm going to come to him. - Are the biggest places in the world. - The biggest places in the world. - Please, on the 3rd anniversary of October the 7th, it is also important to remember the utter atrocities perpetrated by her mass that day against predominantly Israeli and Jewish people, right? It was sickening beyond, right at the level of the things you guys are talking about. I'm not diminishing anything you guys have said. I'm simply saying that today of all days, important to remember the absolute disgusting atrocities perpetrated by Palestinian and mass terrorists. Because if you don't, then we lose track of actually a large component of all this. I happen to think the Israeli response has been massively disproportionate, but you have to factor in that as we commemorate this day today, there was one of the worst terror attacks perpetrated on a people of modern times, Emily. I just want to ask you, Pierce, what is proportional? - What do you think about that? - Well, I think the Geneva Convention, well, I thought about this carefully, and the point is that after World War II, you know, I think you could say the Geneva Convention was specifically brought in, so that we would never have a situation again where atomic bombs would be dropped as they were in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where you wouldn't have places like Dresden being carpet bombed, that there was an acknowledgement by the international community that these kind of things should never be repeated. And I think the concern that I have about what's been happening, and this is why I want journalists to be allowed to operate freely in Gaza. - Me too. - To get to the bottom of what's actually happened. And I know you said this before, and many Israeli supporters have said the same thing. So I'm not, you know, on a lonely ticket here, but one of the reasons is to get real clarity about what's happened, because when you see the pictures from Gaza, they are utterly horrendous. It reminds me of Dresden, and the point of the Geneva Convention was it was brought in to prevent things like Dresden happening again. I think you can argue that what we've seen in Gaza is Dresden with bells on, right? It's killed a lot more people, and the devastation is a lot wider. So to my point is, when you assess proportionality for all the numbers and figures and ratios and so on, I look at the pictures from Dresden and now Gaza. - It's a really bad comparison, by the way. - Why? Because Dresden was a crime, no question about it. - Why is it a bad comparison? - Because Nancy Jermany was a military superpower, which had taken over the whole of Europe and had a very good shot at world domination, has slaughtered tens of millions of people. - Sure, but that's not the point. - No, because it was the point. - Let me explain why I think it was the point. - I'll explain. - But let me explain, okay, but just for purposes of clarity, the reason why I think there's a comparison is that when you see the scenes, they are utterly devastating, and the argument used by the Allies at the time was we have to do is, even if a lot of civilians get killed, and the point of the Geneva Convention was to try and prevent that volume of civilians being killed, as you go off to the bank. - Why are you really not asking that? - As people go off to the bank. - But that actually wasn't an existential war. - They should not have fought. - Yes, probably on drugs, then. - But they were fighting for superpowers. - But if you use that language, then you have to accept that on the Israeli side, they believe they are waging an existential war against people who, by their own admission, Hamas said, after October 7th, through their official spokesman, on camera, we want to keep doing this again, and again, and again. - Hamas wasn't going to take the blame. - So the Israelis, no one thinks about that. - But the Israelis feel they are under an existential threat. - And this might have to be known. - That's a big knowledge of facts. - You may not agree. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - But that's what they said. - No, these like, look, look, look. - They did take over Europe. - Okay. - They did have a chart, a world domination. - We're talking about a rank tank, you know what I mean? You know, this size of East London, and they're not. - No, no, no, no, no. - They're not. - The Emily have her say, Emily. - We are talking about an existential threat to the threat of Israel, and it's not just because of Hamas. It's also because of Hezbollah, the Houthis, and the IRGC and the Islamic Republic itself. And we also know that the Islamic Republic has been funding all of these proxy terror groups and waging a war against the state of Israel. There is an existential threat. Of course, Israelis did feel this on October 7th and after the fact. And I think when we talk about proportionality, I agree with you, Pierce, that the images are horrific. All images from war are horrific. That's why we didn't start it. But the reality of the situation is when we talk about what proportionality is or isn't, we have to examine it through an irrational laws and conflict lens. As soon as I finish, you can ask me a question. When we're talking about the international laws of armed conflict and the way that people wage war, you have to examine each individual strike. That is a whole, that is a total casualty count number. That's not what determines whether it's proportional or not. - That's why, that's why. - That's why it's about distinction. That is why I want the media to be allowed to operate freely in Gaza. So we can actually work out what has happened. - Emily, can I ask you a question please? - You cannot judge the morality of a war on the basis of photos that come out of the law. - You can, but you can base it on the international media. - No, I'm not a pro-opiniac. - Emily, you're asking me to report them. - We are on the same page. - To me, the longer that ban goes on, the more I think that they must perpetrate your war crimes, they want to hide. Otherwise, why not let the ban? - I don't think that that would hide. - I don't think denying journalists. - We're supposedly in a six bar. - No, we're not, we're not. - They're supposedly a six bar in Gaza. - Emily, Emily, can I ask you? - What was the percentage, what Bosnia, you agree that was a horrific war, as for you? - What was the horrific war? - What percentage of those killed in Bosnia were children? - I don't know. - It was five percent. What percentage have been killed in Gaza were children? - What percentage of all the children in Gaza are children? - No, no, no. What percentage of the people killed in Gaza are children? I'm asking you. - We don't have final and 30 percent. - 30 percent. - 30 percent. - 30 percent. - What was it in Syria? - The horrific war, I think we'd all agree. I really agree with it. - Yeah, 12 percent. - 12 percent is significantly lower than the proportion of children in Gaza. - What was it in Iraq? - 80 percent. - 80 percent. - 50 percent of the casualties in Gaza are adult aged, military males. - No, no, no. - 30 percent. - Which is much lower than the reported, which would end the case. - 30 percent of those killed are children. - Which would indicate that is targeting terrorists. - No. - Not civilians. - 30 percent of the children. - Okay, hang on, that's not my point. - 50 percent is my point. - My point would be this. We know that half of the population of Gaza is under 18. Okay, it has a uniquely young population. And the IDF and the Israeli government know this. So when they say we haven't deliberately targeted children, maybe they haven't deliberately targeted you, or maybe they haven't put that argument. - But the news for the hang on. - Hang on, hang on, hang on. - They wait for hammers. - Hang on, hang on. - Let's start this to go on. - Let me make a separate point. I'm not going into that debate, because I don't know the answer, right? - We do know the testimony. - I know the testimony. - I've seen lots of testimony that suggest they have been. They've also seen vehement denials. And again, send the media in. Let's get to the bottom of all this, right? But the truth is that by targeting her mass in the way that they have in urban civilian areas, the IDF have killed a staggeringly shocking number of children. And so to simply say, we never target children. Or maybe not, but when even Donald Trump, when even their biggest, well, hang on, when even their biggest supporter, Donald Trump, says you don't have to blow up apartment blocks to kill an mass terrorist, right? - But that's what they do by designing, they wait. - They wait for them. - But that's by their way. - And then they bomb the-- - Children have-- - Children have become the great collateral damage of this war in guns. - It's by intent, right? - Because they wait for their children to go home on their path. - I mean, this is something that shouldn't be happening. But the reality of the situation is, if you look at the behavior of even the idea, the hundreds of thousands, actually, millions of the evacuation notices of the leaflets that have been passed out, of the efforts that have been called off. A lot of footage has been released of strikes being called off because of the presence of civilians. Every individual strike has to be evaluated through the lens of proportionally and distinction. - So if Hamas waited for the idea soldiers to go to the family homes and then blew up their family homes. - Didn't they differentiate in accordance with the laws of armed conflict between what the permissible, under-international law? And by the way, this isn't Israel's rule. - What would you say? - These are international laws. - What would you say if Hamas waited for the idea soldiers to go back to their family homes as a matter of systematic policy? - They're not targeting ideas. - No, I've asked you. I've asked you. I've asked you. They're breaking into their own vongi-jewish holidays. - What is happening and rape the enemy? - What if he ran? What if he ran? What if he ran? - No. - What if he ran and announced a policy of waiting for ideas soldiers to go back to their family? - Iran doesn't have a policy of targeting civilians. They murdered at least four years ago. - Israel has a policy. It's called West Dadi. What they do is they wait for the alleged Hamas target to go to their family homes. It's official policy. They go to their family homes. They're not. - Then they blow it up. There's an acceptable amount for a low-level target. - There is an acceptable amount of collage. - Civilians, including children. - It's an international law. That's how we deal with it. - If you have a problem with that, oh, and then you should take it. - That's against international law. You can sit here and be indignant and outraged. - I would lie. It should be in line with international law. - The one thing we should all agree on is the sooner the world's media are allowed to operate freely in cars to get to the bottom of all this, the sooner we might get real clarity. I'm sorry. I'm just not prepared to just take the IDS word for it and then being the most moral army in the world. So, if the longer they ban the media, the less I'm prepared to accept that. On the issue of who may be the next prime minister, Polly Mark has been asking who will be the next prime minister of Israel after the next election. There's 44 million dollars. It's a big market. Eisenkart is currently on 47 percent. Netanyahu 36 percent. I've hardly been at 9 percent. So, a clear suggestion there that Netanyahu's reign of what many viewers terror may be coming to an end there. And what I would say talking of terror on this day is just to repeat that on the third anniversary of what happened October the 7th, it is important to remember the scale of what happened that day, the utter horror perpetrated on Israeli and Jewish people. And if you don't condemn that unreservedly and loudly, particularly on an anniversary like today, then I don't take anything else you say seriously because you have to be prepared to condemn the obvious. -Yeah, of course. Those were grave crimes. As I said at the time, and I've said repeatedly ever since, the point is, we are not arming those crimes. We're not facilitating them, and they're not ongoing every single day without our active support. -Okay. -Every day Palestinians are being killed by Israel. That's the point, and it's within the dynamic of an occupying the occupier. -Okay. We're going to leave it there. It's been a spur to debate. I appreciate you all coming in. -Can I address it? -Well, very quickly, then. -We run out of time, very quickly. -Yeah. Okay, so look, guys, I think the second one was horrific, and it should have never happened. It's easy to condemn. Can we also condemn October 6th or 55 years of disgusting, fascist occupation of the Palestinians? -What is disgusting is using a full seven-deem. -You hold on any finish. -And October 8th, let me finish Zionist. October 8th, they did since then, 75, October 7th, 75. Can I ask the American media to stop being so incredibly racist? -That they don't care about Palestinian lives. -That's not how it works anymore. -They don't care about Palestinian children. -American media is disgusting. -American media is guilty. Is guilty of enabling terrorism and supporting and-- -And you are guilty of shooting everywhere. -Everybody in a bedding is really terrorism. They have murdered 23,000 children. When are we going to stop giving our money to them to murder more Palestinians' children? -75, October 7th. -And our media goes, no big deal. They're only lowly Palestinians, not the chosen Israelis. -We're just to be clear. -We're going to end it in people. We've got to end it there, but just to be clear, this media, this journalist does not hide away from those numbers. -And that is the reality. This is why I think my show has been an important news host in this genocide in April. -I'm going to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. -Every cable news host is a monster who supports genocide. Now, one of them have condemned it. -Why do they all work for Israel? -We've got to end it here. -October 7th. -I'm going to have to. -I don't want to meet you today. -I'm going to his name. -I don't want to meet you guys. -I can't keep ending the show. -We are ending your kills without seeing kids. -I thank you all for the spirited debate. I appreciate it. Thank you. Peace Morgan on Sensor is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. You enjoy our show. We ask for only one simple thing. It's subscribe on YouTube and follow Peace Morgan on Sensor on Spotify and Apple Podcast. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.