US Recruitment Playbook: Lessons & Strategies with Liam Newton

(upbeat music) Welcome back to another episode of the Recruitment Mentals Podcast. This week Liam Newton from Projectus joins me on the podcast. Liam for the last two years, well actually since January 2023, has been entirely dedicated to building the US presence for Projectus and more recently moved his family, his life there and is now growing the team there. So in this conversation, we really dig into the detail on the lessons he's taken from building his desk in the US. What's been working, what hasn't? What Liam does an absolute fantastic job of in this episode is really breaking down how he's been winning accounts, how he's been building relationships, the importance of having processes, we literally break down his lead chasing process, his long-term client acquisition process, his candidate management process and so, so much more. There's so many great things that all of you are gonna be able to learn in this conversation that you're gonna be able to instantly apply so you can get more out of what you're putting in. A lovely him as passion, a lovely him as approach, enjoy this week's episode. - Liam, welcome to the podcast. - Thank you, Tisham. - Appreciate the invitation. - Obviously when I reached out or dropped your note or knew I was coming to Austin, I looked to my network and tried to find people that are maybe, have interacted with in the past. Maybe met that is now in Austin. And when I saw your name, I was like, "Oh, I think that'll be an interesting conversation." And it sort of coincided with, I remember seeing a post of you and your family. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were three weeks in, I think. - Yeah, so I was like, "Oh, let me reach out to see if we can make happen." And here we are. You've been on a really great journey with Projectis, which is gonna continue. - Sure. - But more specifically, with us sitting down in Austin today, you've been on in the trenches, still are in the trenches in the last two years of helping build the US presence. - Sure. - Projectis, right? - I have. - So in this conversation, we're gonna focus on that. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of people that will listen to this podcast that are probably maybe in two camps. One, really like the idea of bringing their career to the States. Two, their ambitious entrepreneurs, the like the idea of what they could potentially do in the US after maybe doing Europe UK markets. So I think, yeah, like for us in this conversation, we're gonna delve into that, what's been hard, the lesson, what's working, what isn't. And then also talk about what you're excited about with Projectis, what you're doubling down on. I know literally this week you just doubled the team size, you've got Americans in the business now. So I know it's like an entire time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So. - It's a good time to chat for sure. - Why don't we start with timeframes for people? - Sure. - So fair to say, Projectis as a company had done business in the US, but over whatever period, there wasn't someone in the business just entirely focused on the US. So that only happened when you made that decision or you and Tim decided that was gonna be the plan. And you've been doing that since the last two years. - That's right, yeah. - So we dabbled and we'd organically one place business in the United States, but never really had a true focus. And I'll be frank with you, and this is why it's interesting for people listening to this and that might not even realize yet that US move for them could be a great career option. And maybe feel like it's too far from where they are at the moment. Up until about two and a half years ago, I'd never even considered it. Yeah, I was very much in my own world. I had lots of things going on with my wife personally and things. And I was focusing on all that as well as building a business that projectors. And then it literally came up in a car journey back from soft play with my at the time about 10 month-year-old. I knew Tim had aspirations to move to the US. And I think he just needed that, I guess, confidence that there was someone that can really, really launch it, drive it, and be the point person for that move. I just looked over to my wife and said, "Look, genuinely, how would you feel about relocating to the United States, Austin or Florida?" And we're quite instinctive people, which is one of our biggest faults as well as one of our biggest positives. And she was like, "Yeah, let's go for it." She asked a couple of questions, and then we were in. And then we kind of made that decision in a car journey on a Sunday afternoon. I went into work on the Monday, I said, "Tim, I realized what's gonna take. I realized the change is I need to make in terms of my responsibilities at work day to day. Shall we do it?" And he said, "100% I couldn't think of a better person." Which was great to hear that from your boss. They look, "Yeah, I've got their backing to go and launch his brand, launch his company." But he built from originally his kitchen. And here we are now, three months, four months into the journey. So it's been a whirlwind two and a half years. But yeah, so pleased we've made the move. - No, I appreciate your sharing that because depending on where you are in your life, the personal aspect is important, right? If you are going to output your life here. - It's huge. - Like you're not going to be happy if you just optimize for work, right? The other bits have got to work well around it. So if you actually be happy, settled here, not maybe be contemplating going back home six months in. You've been like full time on this in the trenches from January and 2020, for you. - Yeah, I moved away from a leadership function where I was the CEO's team's sort of right hand person, if you will, running business development, running recruitment process. A lot of long-time colleagues, people development, training, still winning business, to moving away from that responsibility, not having middle-managed underneath me and just getting back to being a consultant. Because I knew in my heart of heart that's what we needed to do to make this work. I might have got the go ahead to go and launch in the United States, but I wouldn't have felt comfortable asking for that level of investment from my company without showing actually this can work. This can work not only in the US when we get there, but if I can build business, if I can show you this is a serious business opportunity from the UK from London, imagine what we can achieve when we're actually on the ground. And I've always been quite ambitious and always liked extra responsibility, but I'm sure we'll get to it. But one of my biggest lessons was actually that I probably walked away from holding myself accountable for Billings too early. And maybe it was my leadership star or maybe I got sort of naturally gravitated towards leadership, and mentorship and management. However, if I could do it all again, and I have got that opportunity now in Austin, I'm going to make sure that I am utilising those skills that I've learnt in leadership, but making sure that I'm the person leading from the front. Yeah, my name's up in the leaderboard. I'm expected to do everything. I'm expecting the others. And that's the method that I'm taking in. And what I've done for the last couple of years in the UK, which was a grind. It's a grind. Well, let's just paint a picture on that because that is where a lot of people have to start if they're UK-based, right? So, because how long did you do it from the UK before you moved here? Year and a half. Year and a half. So, let's just paint a picture, and what the typical week, straight day look like, working in the US with the UK. Well, everyone's personal situations are totally different. So, as I mentioned already, I've got wife and a son. His young, my wife has a successful, she's self-employed, successful career as well. It's not all just, I can, you're at home, I'm working. We've got a good balance, I hope. She might not agree. But we've got a good balance, and her career is, it's as important as mine. OK? So, I did another luxury of lying in bed till 930 and then getting to work at half 10. I was up at 6am every day anyway, and then getting to work at 1030, 11am, and then working through till 7.8, leaving the office, getting home, carrying on working, 9.10, not every day, but you have to do that work. If you're going to commit to working in a market where they are 5, 6, 7 hours behind, you have to commit to those levels, cools and those levels of hours. So, yeah, it was just shifting the hours slightly, starting 2 to 3 hours later than you traditionally would in the UK market, and then working 2, 3 hours beyond. And even then, you're still not even working 50% of what a typical United States working week would look like across all four time zones. Is the biggest sacrifice to the personal side? That's what people have to be prepared to. Yeah, I mean, you either have to sacrifice your evenings if you've got other people under dependence, you maybe need to sacrifice time with them as well, or sleep. I believe you can build and do business from the UK in the United States. That's proven. I don't feel like you can build a business. So, you can do business, you can't build a business. In my view, and I'm sure there's plenty of people that will and have proof of me wrong, what makes you say that? Let me rephrase, I couldn't build a business from the UK in the US market. I could do business, but we had to get on the ground for us to achieve what we want to achieve. That's my viewpoint. And I feel like it's a big, big sacrifice mentally, physically, and some people can deal with that. Year and a half was my limit. Towards the end of that, you were like, you'd tell me, didn't you? Like, personally, you were like, I don't know how long I've been doing. I was just really tired. How much longer than that? Yeah, and I got to a point where I wasn't business developing West Coast because I am a professional that wants to give the best expert world-class service to my clients. And I couldn't hand on heart, look at the minnii, at a conference or over a video call, and say that I was given them as much as I was the positions on the East Coast. Because most of our positions, maybe 75, 80% are field-based positions. So, you could have a position one day up in Pacific Northwest in Seattle, the next minute we're working on a position in Florida on the other side of the country. So, field-based being for people like out there selling products? Yeah, field-based or remote. Yeah, we work with medical devices, medical technologies, anything to do within the product pipeline from pre-clinical stage, clinical trial, all the way through to commercialising it, sales marketing and leadership. So, these people could be based anywhere? Yeah, and you do find we work positions across the whole country. And that's part of why we chose Austin, centrally-based, well-connected. So, yeah, if that answer the question, for me, it was just a year and a half in, I was like, wow, I can't wait to get over in the US. I can imagine. What were the goals that you set yourself that made you feel like we got a proof of concept or we built a good enough traction for you to go look to and I think, looking over here, this is what we've been able to do. I think this gives us some really good signals that if we go there, I think we could build even more. 2023, number one, myself, and I haven't mentioned Jay, my colleague, who was there with me every day, by the way. Right, you did it together. Yeah, he did it together. He was the one that was there. I wasn't responsible for, but we were colleagues, yeah. We were both doing the work. We were both coming into the work, doing the same things every day, sharing sprints, sharing standards, and making sure for me that we were top of the leaderboard and we were building the most from the UK and the US market, which we achieved last year. I just wanted to prove that actually, we're two of the most experienced, or at least two of the highest performing up to now in Europe, so why can't we replicate that in the US market? We did that, so that was important to me. Again, even though I think we would have got the move anyway, from my own standards, I wanted to make sure that we showed everyone in the business as well as Tim. This is a serious business opportunity, which are you already new? How long did it take to do your first placement? Oh, not long, 'cause like I mentioned, there were things going on in the US, yeah, but we were building from January, February of that first year. 2023, I'm glad it was a lesser market. 'Cause I think if you start in recruitment, if you start a new market in a vibrant time where there's lots of jobs coming in, it's very candidate driven, and you have lots of success. I don't feel that grounds you for a career in recruitment. I'm of the opinion that in that first six months year, you should experience some level of challenge and hardship, and I feel like that makes for a better recruiter in my experience. So I was pleased it wasn't the easiest time. It was a good eye-opener for what we were getting as I was into, but I had so much confidence just in terms of job flow, conversion rates, the amount of jobs that came on off the amount of business development calls we were making, the processes that I've always lived by, they were ringing true, even though we were six, seven, eight hours behind, ahead, sorry. - Okay, so let's just break this down a bit then, 'cause I know people will be interested. Let me just first ask you this, so thinking of that first year, what were maybe the things that were more challenging than you expected, or were more surprising challenges out of interest? - Getting through to people, because we had that limited time to do so. So as soon as you got to the US, we were calling people at different points of the day that we just simply didn't have the opportunities to do in the UK, unless you're making calls at 11 midnight, and we're getting through to people that we've been chasing for literally months, and having really productive phone calls, booking video meetings, booking face-to-face at congresses, some people just take calls at certain times of day and don't others. So I think we just had massive missed opportunity in terms of actually physically having conversations that perhaps we could have had if we were on the ground. - So you're saying that you weren't able to maybe get as hold as many people as you thought, just simply because there's a limited window that you could call people. - Yeah, so I'm a big advocate with in business development, if you're struggling to get through to a prospect and they're on your target list, and you know you can add value, you know you're directly in their space, you know you have talent available that can help their business grow, hit their milestones, you just need an opportunity to get on the phone with them. I'm a big advocate of if you always do your lead chasing at the same time, mix it up. You're doing the same thing over and over and over, you come in first thing in the morning, you hit lead, good, that's the right thing to do. But that one person just might not simply take calls at that time, they might drop off their kids at that time, they might have a corporate business meeting every single day at that time. So you switch it up and you call them at 5pm, 6pm, you change the method, we didn't have as much of that opportunity. So we really had to make the most of the work we had, we really had to like capitalize and maximize from the calls and the meetings that we did have, and we experienced them, we got high standards, so we did that. Again, it just kept telling me, look, imagine what we could achieve, imagine what's possible if we have bigger opportunity to make an impression. - Sometimes people that I speak to can have a sort of preconception that what are people going to be like to know that they're speaking someone from the UK. How did that play out, is that even a thing, or did you just hit that, I don't know, did it come up? - You could answer the question in so many different ways. Ultimately, it's about value. If you know how to demonstrate value very quickly, if you're super niche or niche, as they call it over here, which is frustrating. Prefer niche. But if you're super niche, you know your specialism, you hold value, then there's a strong argument that I don't think it matters where you call from. - Yeah, for. - At the same time, it certainly helped that we had a story to tell. It certainly helped that we had a time line as to when we were going to be in Austin. It's a point of discussion. In my view companies, we'll prefer doing business with someone on the ground in their country. So it's a challenge if you make it a challenge. I think you should focus on your value first, and it shouldn't be a reason why you don't call it in that state. - It would give you a hard time, right, if not that. - No hard time. I think if you're wondering whether to take on a job in the US, just go and do it. It's my view on it. There are less barriers than you realize and you can and we'll do business from the UK and the US. - Okay, so let's go into just some more particular bits. So I've got here, you can tell me exactly, but you've worked in a lot of markets, like geography wise. - Yeah. - Right, UK, like different parts of Europe. - Yeah, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria. - Yeah, so there's a lot of things you've experienced that you've seen. I'd love to just get your take on some of the main differences or nuances to this US market. The first one that I want to start with is not on this list that we planned, but it's just the word that I just keep hearing. This week, right? And I just want to get your take on it. It's, you probably know what the word is going to be. It's going to be relationships. And all I keep hearing is, oh, so much more relationship driven. It's so much more relationship driven, relationship relationship. So what does that mean to you? Like if you were to go to a bar and there's other recruiters and then they've been on similar journey, like I found the US market, but I'm like, yeah, so much more relationship driven, isn't it? Like, what does that mean? - We'll get back to the episode in just one minute, but today I'm excited to talk to you about one of our partners, Sourcewell. The industry leading business development and the head hunting platform. At the end of last year, Sourcewell released an exciting new feature, the platform's very own live feed. Being honest with you, this feature has been one of my favorites to date because it tells you exactly who's engaging with your outreach in real time. This means you can easily tell which leaders are hot and which is not, so you can connect with the right people at the right time to skyrocket your engagement. You can actually hear from one of our mentors and 2023 panelists Amber Penrose on how she's achieved instant results with Sourcewell's new feature, Live Feed. - The Sourcewell Live List feature has enabled me to become a secret little stalker and to contact my ideal customer profile whilst they're at their desks. And especially for someone like me who works in biotech, where computer time, understandably for a lot of scientists, just isn't prevalent, this has been a huge help. And for example, a biotech vice president of HR who I have been politely pestering for what feels like my entire life, finally picked up the phone to me because I called called her after she clicked on my email four times in a row, which Sourcewell kindly had let me know. To the point where she actually giggled during my called call opener and responded with, are you in the office watching me? And despite that awkward encounter, we're now working on a retained project with them in Boston and that wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Sourcewell. - As you can see, Sourcewell is a great tool for driving better engagement, more meetings and higher revenue. If you're looking for a competitive edge in 2024, then Sourcewell could be for you. You can book a demo with Sourcewell and mention the Recreement Mentors podcast to enjoy an extra 50 phone and 50 email credits per user. And this exclusive offer for this community is gonna save you circa 500 pounds or more. So click the link in the show notes or you can go directly to sourcewell.com/dano. - I know what they mean for sure. I mean, shaking hands, looking someone in the eye. It's valued in business all over the world. It certainly feels like there's more focus and emphasis on it here. There seems to be more of a focus and emphasis on networking here than London. And I don't know if it's a Texas thing that everyone seems more willing to help you here. Everyone seems to pay it forward here a lot more. Being on the ground does enable you to go out to companies, offices, HQs, understand their culture. And I feel like they appreciate that a lot more. And perhaps that's because the UK is so over subscribed from a recruitment consultancy agency perspective that it's become the norm that it's just quite or can be sometimes transactional. And of course there's thousands of consultants that aren't and offer great value. But maybe that's part of the reason why. And maybe the industry's just got used to that level of process. So yeah, I do tend to agree. It's just difficult to establish after four months why that is. It maybe just instilled in the business culture the United States has and the size of the economy. Everything's about business. Everything seems to be about making more money. Costs to escalate. The American dream. Build a business. Grow it. Fulfill your dreams. Everything seems more business economy-focused here, I'd say. And that's probably why maybe relationships are more important. Like what I just took from now, I think there's some really good points. But actually, something that just sort of put to my head then when you were speaking was that paying forward peace. That might even be expected by the people that you're speaking to. They're so used to paying it forward or being willing to tell others that they all must maybe expect that to be part of the exchange or part of the relationship they have with a recruiter. Whereas maybe like you said, there's so many great recruits out there that have that approach anyway in the UK, quite a competitive market. But maybe isn't as expected. It is expected to be more of a transaction. And just like, can you get me that job? Can you get me that company? So yeah, I don't know. That just popped into my head because I think what I'm interested in, and I know you're still very much figuring this out. You're in the trenches of it. But like I'm interested to just try and actually define what that looks like in a recruiters' day. You go some really good points there, but it's like, what does that look like? Is it like when you call that kind of for the first time you're speaking about like, I might be able to tell you at some point in your career or there. So I don't know. I mean, what does that actually look like? Yeah, I appreciate it. Wasn't very specific. No, no, but all those bits are helpful, but I know other people-- one specifics. I was always taught like, don't do anything for free. Don't do anything for free. Oh, you've got a charge for that. Pitch them an invoice for that. But there are things that we can do that we have knowledge about that we can offer. We can help people. And I think, yeah, maybe you need to show value. And that's a way that you can show value sometimes. What's the 15 minute phone call? It's always a hot topic, isn't it? When people charge for like resume CV review. You talked about candidates. Can we do that? Two or three, four or five of those a week? Will that can be eventually remember that? Yeah, probably can you add value quite easily with your knowledge or your experience in the game Mm-hmm. Certainly can will they remember that help you push you in the direction of a referral someone that could be right for the job You're hiring for will that person end up as a leader and manager of director in the future? And there are things that I think we can do as recruiters and maybe we're traditionally taught not to That can offer value and showcase your knowledge So yeah, I think I know that that will be helpful Tell me what you think of this as well because this is also something that I picked up on that might be a good example of this is that a lot of recruiters that I've interviewed that have gone on to the US market have often said that sometimes It might take longer to get in with a client to get into an organization But when they do there's a real big opportunity in the sense that they do want to really help you out and do business with you But it might just take a bit more longer to get that door open. Have you found that on that? Yeah Yeah, yeah, that's maybe a good example You got to think of that like are you still going to be showing up trying to add value in three months time more on the eighth touchpoint Or are you just going to give up after the second and this isn't a new thing is it? No, no, we've been hearing this in sales forever, right? Like before we got into it and that's where I think a lot of people fall down And what I try and steal in my people and our team and our business You know, we're bringing work on and we will work on with a new company two weeks ago It speaks in a literally 18 months I must have had 12 15 video calls Australian company you got to keep grinding you got to keep going back you if you're looking for instant gratification Then building a 360 recruitment test probably isn't for you. It's harder to get work Yeah, it requires a level of credibility. You have to showcase your value It's just the beauty of follow up and the consistency of follow up will Eventually reward you the other common bet that you highlighted when we're prepared for this was finding the know Yes, and like so I've heard this in a few different ways. Yeah, I'll put here find the know bullshit But in my other way that I've not not my words. No, but the other way that I've heard it be told is it's same thing My mate James is experiences where you'll have a call with someone and they'll be like they'll even come across enthusiastic and like Yeah, yeah, like that all sounds great They're more ever and then you won't fucking hear from them ever again Yeah, or you lose the work and maybe they've told you're gonna get the work and that yeah stuff like that So just talk to me about that because this is a US nuance like what does find the the know me? Is it that's not taking a face value? Yeah, sure And maybe it's because there's just more opportunities here you experience it more again ask me in a year or two And I'll tell you whether it's a US thing right. We're talking about clients here, aren't we yeah typically? Yeah, and we've clients and I guess it could be applied to camera as well There is that feeling. I'm not sure why it is I just see it as a great opportunity to look at ourselves And if that's happened you've missed something. Yeah, and that's where the finding the know comes in Rather than complaining being frustrated like getting yourself down complaining to your colleagues How about you just look at it from a growth perspective and think well? What didn't I ask? Or what didn't I ask well enough in that call in those meetings because I've certainly missed something In my view and again, what we instill in the team here and what we'll be instilling in the new start as this week It's always on you yeah, like Extreme ownership and then also me it's on me for not training you well enough That's how perspective that's the culture that Tim's built in this company and what I joined That's always been instilled in the company You should never be surprised by it if you're surprised by something going wrong Then maybe we need to look at ourselves and consider what could I have done differently? That's a huge part of our culture. No, I love that Yeah, I think yeah, maybe we can find out if in two years time But I think regardless if it is maybe a bit more of a Something you might run into on the cultural pieces like look at yourself in the mirror That's the best place to go regardless. Ask better questions Yeah practice better questions ask better questions try different things Even if you're not the most experienced is there certain points in calls or meetings where your guts tend to do something I didn't sound quite right. Let me dig into that a bit more Yeah, let me mirror that label that let me let me explore that area And if you ask the right questions, they will explore it with you whereas if you leave it alone and just hope it doesn't Rear its head in my experience That's when the deal goes down or that's when they do something different. So perhaps what they promise So no, I do understand it because look in my short time I've been to New York before been here for like five days now and I think from a UK perspective If you couple with what we're talking about with like the infusionism the accent like I do get it Like I do quite like that here in terms of every to person I speak to so far in Austin particularly in interaction and in shops and coffee shops or whatever It's like quite an enthusiastic one and then quite like positive one. I was so friendly here Yeah, so like I walked into my friends office and the Don't know if he's called a security guard or but the person that's like in the the lift down and stuff like that It's saying good morning and fist pump in everyone right that's such an American thing wait So I absolutely love so you ready for the day that yeah So I do get like what we're talking about in terms when some people will run into like oh well Liam said this But then this happened because if you couple that with like Liam also said that in his Infusionistic positive us accent and like that energy Do you know I mean I get why it could throw some people but right you're completely right the best on the same other way But then you sort of take a step back and think wait a minute like this is opportunity to get better Let's get into some particular bits on Liam's perspective on some things I know you said are like surely this is all gonna be things that everyone knows and all that but a quote that I've actually said a lot recently Is basically we all need to be reminded more than we need to be taught and this is the reality of like podcasts like this That isn't from me. I got that from listen to another podcast So it's just like that really rings true in my world when we're talking about skill development training because oftentimes If you think about all the hours that you spent with your team Training oftentimes it isn't because they need to be taught new things It's probably because there needs to be reminders to do those well. I think I didn't do well enough at holding them accountable exactly Yeah, so the way that you thought about getting back into the tools back properly in the trenches building this US business Yeah, was you was very much like I didn't want to reinvent the will was like time-know-a-dying things that you said me right It's what I live by my crewman. Yeah, classically trained. I'd love to hear your take because we hear this a lot as well So I think it would be good to try and define this or like bring this to life Which is I've really committed to world-class basics and standards How do you think about that world-class basics and recruitment world-class standards? What does that mean? Obviously it starts with from my perspective what you've already said personal responsibility extreme ownership It has to start there you have to responsible for the service that you're doing all of that that's the attitude attitude How else do we define as do you think? Processes for the different elements of the job and as we know and most people listen to this Understanding 360 recruitment you got so many things to juggle Just simplifying each process. I think you get muddled and you have so much to do when you miss things Because then you're just firefighting all the time So I'm just hugely passionate about having a clear lead chasing process There you're hot business your hot jobs you're chasing right now that you think you can convert him in next week or two That's the business you can convert now having a clear client list target base That's your relationship building longer term work And sometimes those two things overlap So a lot of your target companies of course may well be hiring but you need to separate those two BD strategies I find people often do one of the two or sometimes neither Tell us a bit more of what other processes would you think you then need to have like world-class standards based around? So you've got a lead chasing process? Yeah, break that and then we'll break that down The lead chasing client target list relationship longer term business development stuff When you win the work or about to win the work investing more time at the front end of a process And setting the standards exceptionally high at the front end and being absolutely clear that you're the authority in that process Because this is what we do for experts at and then on the flip side when you go to market Again spending more time than maybe you already are on the candidate qualification screening process Yeah, so I think the weather you put which I really like to is front load a lot of the that standards work Really not cutting in corners. Tell that really seriously. Yeah Then that you're going to increase your chances of like less bad stuff Yeah, so I think I've used the example of like if you set your standards up here And you drop slightly in the process. It's very easy to bring it back up. If you set your standards up here It's almost impossible to climb those stairs and get back up Because you've already set the precedent with the candidate with the client And that's when they start to ghost that's when they start to disrespect you That's when they start to go direct to the candidate or direct to the client and then you start to lose control And then suddenly that pipeline you had is lessened by about 50% And I'm a big advocate of and I wish there was a better word for it But controlling the process that's what the for me the best recruiters I've ever worked with do they control process expertly They're never surprised by anything because they're constantly finding the note And I strongly believe it it all starts at the very beginning Candidate and client side Day to day we're very fast paid to making lots of calls We have minimums of the calls we're making. It's very fast paid in South Z When you get the work you sit back you slow down And that's why recruitment's hard because you tend to find out that really really good at the fast paid stuff And then struggle with the consultative stuff All vice versa. So yeah fast paid numbers Minimum standards of calls talk time all those great things But then slowing down when the business begins that's kind of how I run my desk And how you think about it and how I'd look to train others and J and these other people Other persons that come into the business and just drive from their standards Why it's going to be easier for me to actually hold them accountable now is because I'm doing it every day as well Which is the past I was doing business development, passing work on Although I was respected it was harder to hold them accountable It wasn't doing it myself So I think that'd be really helpful for people what you just said Let's just go into the bits that everyone always is always messing about The most common skill got that we find in recruitment commas that we work with it is that new business piece Let's just talk about because I'm sure you've seen this play out time and time again You've said some people may do one of them well maybe never of them well What's Liam's lead chasing process let's just start there. What does that look like? We'll get back to the episode in just one moment But before we do I wanted to tell you about one of our partners source well Let's be honest how much of your day is spent on tasks that don't move the needle Send encounter emails cleaning up messy data or tweaking messages to get them just right It takes up too much time. 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How do you define a lead a job within your specialism? Okay, so within your niche Within the job function that you traditionally or have targeted to hire for in your geography So a lot of job that you're aware of whether that's from a lead from a candidate Ideally or a lead from a client or a foe from a client or even a your current client mentioned it Still goes in the lead list. It's a hot lead than a cold one, but it still goes in the lead list They're the jobs in your niche that you're looking at every if your boss comes over and says okay So we really need some jobs really some new clients like where you're gonna get business from the next two weeks You open your lead list and you talk them through it And you have a minimum amount you add for those per week, which is what to depend that I do think that will depend on the niche They're in the market What do you like the other if there was like one? I would ten quality lead ten nice like quality leads though Like ones that are on the money in your space in your specialism However, someone new to the game, but we can work towards ten if you always work towards getting ten in your space And some people will listen to that. That's not enough But it depends how quality your work is it depends how specialist your desk is And it will depend on your level of experience Maybe people knew to the game will probably might need quite a few more to maybe convert as many jobs as a more experienced consultant So if I say to you then you come up you're my manager you come over and go He should really like how's the job partner looking? Yeah, look at my leads list. Yeah, yeah Talk them through it, but I say to you Liam. I've worked that lead. What does that mean to you? So the way we separate it and we've recently changed CIRM when we like bespoke made it like based on what I feel is important So you have like a minimum amount of calls and then the idea is that you then move it on to a spec out Right and they're kind of in tandem at the same time And then the idea is that you then move it on to Spoken with higher manager and then the idea beyond that is booked video meeting or face-to-face meeting And then we can separate each lead so if my boss comes over and says like a some where your jobs coming from I open the video meetings booked first right I've got four in there and then I open the Spoken with a higher manager because they're hot or aren't they they're further down the pipeline Mm-hmm. So it's like a pipeline for your leads and going into that sort of granular detail Mm-hmm. And then the idea is you said the video meeting terms agreed and that can then convert to a job Does that make sense? Yeah, so that's like where you want the lead to end up? But are you saying if I said you I've like worked that lead but I wasn't able to get to speak to hiring like what? Yes, so we're looking at the matter times you've called them right the different numbers you've called off We're looking at to spec out emails you've sent Connections on LinkedIn messages emails on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. Have you texted them? We switched the device recently which is great because it enables us to send text off that voice mail like AI based text and you can edit the text if you want if you haven't tried every one of those things and called and I'd say a lead I'm not sure what you think but how long do you think a lead hot for well? That's not that's gonna be my next question obviously it differs from perm to contract right? Yeah, it does I take it really hot for two weeks for me like really hot for a week and then hot for two weeks And then you still carry on targeting it week three and four but the reality is it's probably further down the line Then you might miss your opportunity But I'm a big advocate of continuing to track week three and four and five through Mm-hmm a lot of people don't do it So what cash agree with that lead then go into like a company that I know like it's hired? Yeah, I just changed the in the note section or create another section for leads that are beyond that period because by then you've got two three weeks Worth of hot leads coming through. Yeah, so you just spend more time on them But maybe you just send a slightly different much more direct email and week three or week four if you really have called them Upteen times or speak to someone else in the business Basically a colleague account apart in different department. You want to get some feedback as to if that's filled and just tracking it through The amount of business I've won over the years because I track through leads all the way Yeah, I love that Incredible because yeah using other recruiter although using term talent They think they've got it covered they've got two final interviews one doesn't turn up one flop presentation stage Mm-hmm. They are in deep pain then Mm-hmm. And if you're the person that calls and follows up properly at that point You've got an exclusive or retained client People give up after a couple of weeks in my experience and how does this differ to long-term clientless strategy? What was that now? I'd say that's more on the value piece Okay, so you're not just calling up every time in asking for jobs Mm-hmm. But you're maybe sending them a few candidates that you've spoken we haven't seen whether there could be a business opportunity for their business to bring someone in at that level You're looking to ask them what conferences or congresses there are or exhibitions there attending in the next three four months getting a meeting book there Maybe you try and flip it and do a reverse headhunt if you're struggling to gain business traction with them I think that sort of be these stacking you know You're calling with different points of the year every month six weeks and just having a different conversation with them Understanding what their growth plans are off the back of those conversations and the idea for me is that you're getting that lead again But you're getting it two months free month for your competitors about them So they don't even give other companies a chance that's the idea of it and I'm sure what lots of other recruits do You're trying to build a position where you can then add that as a lead But you're two months ahead of budget being given and you've already got it tied up That's the ideal situation. I guess the goal of the long-term relationship piece Just curious then because I feel like this is also like a word that we hear a lot in recruitment Definitely on the LinkedIn news feed is like value you gave some examples But like how do you think about that? I'm just curious so like when you say yeah You're not just calling them and saying like notice you're hiring how are you getting on with that? You're trying to deliver value or so you said a few different examples But like how do we define that how I know there's loads of different ways? But I don't know how do you think about that it does get chuts out there a lot pretty different like specialist to specialist But sometimes you like again like simplifying it. We assume a lot of knowledge I feel so if you've got a new company to market We assume they know what to pay someone in a particular specialism in a particular state of the country in the US for example Because there's so many different states with different laws regulations taxes to what I hear there is market inside Yeah market insights I think's one way and that's if you're in a niche if you're in a niche and just getting their opinion on it and Just offering help on those areas Don't assume that just because they told you a month ago they got no space in the team that you can't go back with account I get again not reinventing the will provide value with candidates like candidates are our product Yeah, and if you're in a super specialized niche then you you're speaking to people that can add value to their company Particularly your what it's filled out like so we do we do a lot of sales we do a lot of stuff preclinical as well marketing We specialized niche down within therapy areas like medical device areas, right? So like Jay just as radiology right and then that enables him to help radiology start up and scale up companies across their whole product portfolio But yeah, he knows what different departments different levels within those departments get paid in different states And maybe the person that's just joined to launch the business doesn't know that yet So it's simple things like that and then just candidates and just not forgetting that's how we can add value It's our knowledge and our access to talent that they're advert through internal talent or HR just don't allow them to attract Classic head hunting Yeah, I think this is just another thing because well which I just keep seeing online and I just keep it at time and time again And we're talking about which is sendouts I think people do shit on them and be like I hear like CV spec and doesn't work and all this and like I'm like that's just not true Like I'm just going from all the conversations that I have Hmm again, I think it's about extreme ownership and how good are your sendouts and like the way that you describe it there You're not saying like I'm gonna speak to a field sales rep and then Mail shut them out to a thousand different companies, right? I'm not a big fan of that doesn't work for me So like how do we feel about this? Oh because you're again, you're talking about that sounds like that's open up doors for you I've heard this time and time again. I'm meant in terms like a thousand companies, but yeah I know in terms of what you're talking about getting work send out spec out for me has always worked for us Yeah, you see a lot of stuff online now because everyone's trying to sell something different And everyone has got value We feel like do the traditional Classically trained methods of winning business and recruitment and apply a modern spin invest in newer technology Use the new technologies that are available, but don't stop everything that work before and then Expect all this stuff to work as well. And I'm someone that needs to like improve Speak about earlier didn't we about social media? It doesn't come naturally to me to like build my own personal online brand It works, but I feel like it works in addition to the classic Trains sales skills and recruitment skills that we're talking whenever we join industry And I feel like people that say that it doesn't work either probably aren't doing enough of them consistently enough or maybe they're just not Nation-erf specialist enough and they're not on the money They've got to really be on the money for that person's need Yeah, you have to work in the industry and especially them for a decent amount of time to truly know what that looks like Mm-hmm the bit that I would just add that I picked up on I don't know what you think about this just to run this bit out would be I think great recruiters will Like we said the candidate pieces is like for a lack of a better term the product right in terms of the In the recruitment game. Yeah, there are people that we can represent their people that can open up doors But we can generally change their career We can generally get them an amazing opportunity work for their dream employer whatever a great recruiter will use that and then like you said Firstly be very specific and targeted because they have that market expertise and know that these would be the Tots of organizations that they could add a lot of value to that could impact could release their expertise and also Should match up with like what this person is looking for so that that's one But then if I call Liam and I tell you about this person and you say, "Look, he's shunned, we're not hiring." A great recruit isn't gonna go, okay, right, like when are you hiring or these things? What they will do is use that as the reason they're calling them and speaking to them, but they'll do everything they can to try and walk away with some information or at least learn about that business. Because then what these great recruiters will do is they'll then start building a list of companies that they understand what skills that maybe they often find difficult to hire or if budget wasn't an issue and everything was in a really good position right now, they'd love X type of person in the business. Whatever it may be, they then start building a list of companies that would look at X skillset, X people. And then guess what happens in whatever timeline you speak to Liam, he'll just take those boxes, you're gonna call them and you're gonna make them feel like you listen that you understood and go, you know last time you told me about if budget wasn't an issue, you'd hire something like this. I actually just spoke to someone. - Yeah, you repeat back what they asked me. - Yeah, just go what I mean. - Showing something. - And this is all the same activity, right? But that's what great recruiters do and it's combining that market expertise with that listening, gathering information and then using that to their advantage. - On the phone as well. - Yeah, all on the phone. - I did use that to advantage. - Yeah, 'cause I think emails are emails. - Yeah. - We can't influence on email. We can peak interest, we can't influence and that's what their magic happens, yeah? - So it's just like are you doing that? Like when we're talking about dispecking out the sendouts, it's like, are you actually doing that or are you just sending out what you know, maybe something would be interesting and hoping to see what happens? - A real quick one from me and we'll get straight back into the conversation. Some of you may or may not be aware that I am also the founder of a business called Hector. Hector is an all in one training platform for recruitment founders to maximize team performance. The reason why I'm sharing this with you is because if you are someone that is enjoying this podcast week after week, you might even share this podcast with your colleagues. Then I'd love to connect with you. Our training platform is powered by top performers delivering practical training for today's market. We believe training a lot of the time in the recruitment industry is dated, is stale, is delivered by people that did it five, 10, 15 years ago and we are completely going against that. So a lot of the people that you're able to learn on this podcast, you're able to learn even more from at Hector. So if you'd love to find out more about how we could potentially help you get more out of your people ramp up their performance more quickly, then please connect with me on LinkedIn or click the link in the show. And it's where you'll be able to book a call thus. Let's get straight back into the episode. - Bones first, we have to email as well though, 'cause it's one of the methods can work for some people. And it's another opportunity to put your name in their mind and show them the value you can have with candidates. But yeah, Bones first, build those relationships, listen, and that's why using the system so important and notes are so important. (laughing) That's why again, I'm like going back to basics, just record what's, you know, AI helps us in phone recordings help us in terms of the text that comes off the phone calls in AI and going to our systems. But you have to record the information that you're getting from these clients. And take, 'cause otherwise that's something you call them, it's exactly the same call. You haven't used, you mentioned well, the information you gain from that call, you haven't used it to your advantage next time. So again, just back to basics. If you can't get business, get information, use that information to make the call a lot warmer next time and go back with some talent that can potentially help them grow their business. What we're saying on to closes out on process and there's other bits, but clear process, call of fine jobs, what we're saying there, 'cause again, that's like the front loading stuff, isn't that? This is the best bit for me. This is where you really, really like turn and can start converting your fuel rates. If they're used to a 25, 30 minute phone call, you tell them so that we can't get anywhere near what we need to get through in 25, 30 minutes. If you insist on that, then I'm not the right partner for you. And we've all been there, right? When you first get into recruitment, I've got a new client, got a vacancy. For us now, we don't work multi- agency. So we were a retained and exclusive permanent recruitment business within medical technologies. The only time we might is if we really, really, really want to work with a company, we want to get some terms of business in place and we know we've got someone or two people available in the space that fit what they need. Generally speaking, we walk away from that business, I'd rather spend time winning new, better clients and keeping in touch with those companies when they're ready to go, it's retained, than work multi- agency. So I think commitment levels when you're taking on work are vitally important. And as we know again, we've heard it all before, the biggest waste of recruitment there is for me is working for free and working on a role. Before you even begin, you've got less than 30% chance of filling it if they're using two, three, four others. So quality work is what we're building this business in Austin based on. Taking a step back and being authoritative in that take on call, asking amazing questions. You mentioned it before, listening, repeating back what their needs are. Really, really, really digging under the surface of that validation. And then at the end of that call, telling them how you operate, not asking, telling them how you operate, telling them what's going to happen next and telling them what that's going to mean to the process, i.e. how quickly we're going to deliver a talent for you, how quickly you can have someone on board. Because over here in the US, it's about speed. We're talking about notes periods of a week or two. And everyone wants someone yesterday, as the classic saying goes, when can you start someone? Yesterday. Everyone wants someone yesterday. So what does that actually mean? Digging into the budget. How long they've been looking? If it takes an hour and a half, it takes an hour and a half. But it's an hour and a half, a valuable hour and a half. Because you leave that call with commitment, probably initiation fee or retainer, or at least an exclusive client, that you can confidently go and spend hours of your time on. Because you know it's going to convert to business. What's in it for them? Speed. Yeah, again, not reinventing the wheel. They get high quality talent at speed. And you're saying you're able to do that, because your really comfortable committing the time. Yeah, best case scenario without business, projectors, they leave the call feeling so confident that we know. We're an extension of them. We know so much about what they need. In a person, in an experience, culturally, to fit their business, which is obviously so important for early stage and growing organizations. They should feel so confident that we know what they want. They don't need to speak to anyone else. Also, if you're not booking an update call 24 hours after and then a week after the search, then again, you're losing control. And that's where you validate the search 24 hours after and then a week after again. I never leave an update call without another update called booked. What would you update them on 24 hours after? What I've seen from the market so far. That's probably for new clients. We wouldn't do that for a client we've worked before. Yeah, yeah, sure. I think you need to test the brief, Hishim. I think you've got a test is what they're looking for achievable. And we can give them insight on the first call, but I don't like to jump two feet in. I like to give myself 24 hours to assess, okay, is what you're looking for. Does it exist? What's the total estimated market population for what you're looking for? Have some conversations, speak to my network. Is the salary on point are they paying enough for the experience, particularly for new clients, revalidating after a day's work of speaking to the market as to whether it's achievable? 'Cause otherwise you could spend a whole week before your first update call working on the search, speak to 15 people and realise that. No, I do like that. If you realise they're 30, 40,000 dollars per year under budget and you start again in week two. So you know you said it's really, let's just say, like people listening have done a really good job of really understanding the bits that you mentioned, culture, the must-haves versus the nice-to-haves, all that. You have to then make sure that you outline the process, how you work. So it seems like you're talking about their work. Let's say it's a new client. What would that typically look like? So you're saying 24 hours we're gonna book. Could be literally 15 minutes, yeah. Could be a phone call, could be video. But like you're saying, what I'm gonna do is, you're gonna offer some initial insights, be consulted around. We offer insights, we also offer alternatives, so you sell back a new idea. For me, the hardest brief is the ones that are the most open or the most closed. You do it in a take on call, the kickoff call. If you're the first time you've worked with them, you can influence them in that call, but sometimes you need to give yourself 24 hours to go back. And then, either close it down or open it up, depending on maybe-- - And then give us some evidence and like that. - Give us some evidence, open some profiles on LinkedIn, even if you haven't spoken to the candidate, it doesn't matter. You just pitch your new ideas, and again, you're showing value because sometimes clients, we just assume they know what they're looking for. Quite often, they don't. They think they do, but they don't actually know what the market's telling us. And they don't know, there's a different type of responsibility that also has skills that are relevant for that role. So we go back and we sell new concepts, and we try and open the brief up in that call as well. - You do not 24 hours, maybe sometimes 48 hours, and then you're saying, after that, there's a weak check-in point. - Yeah, I just don't leave it. For me, I started it about five years ago, and you should never go weak without speaking to clients. - That weakly sink call. - I'm a big advocate of putting yourself in the shoes of them. They've spent an hour and a half their time with you. They've invested, it's their livelihood, it's their business, it's their team. How often do recruiters just go, "Oh, I'm not gonna update them, because I've got nothing to give them." I've got nothing to tell them. If you've got no news, that's an opportunity to go and tell them, there's no news in the reasons why. Show them data, open the brief up, get more budget, sell a different camera, they're in with a different background, get an interview, and I don't leave an update call until we've got the next one booked. And they feel in control then, because they've got an opportunity to hold me accounts as well. - So every week that you're having that call with them, if you're working with them? - Could last 40 minutes, could last 10. - Okay. - There might be some interviews in between. Maybe you have another chance to connect. What an opportunity to take interview feedback on video, more personal, video calls last longer, typically than phone calls. And then on your process, you typically say, "On average, this is my market specialist, Nish, we're looking at a typical time-tie of this." - Yeah, if they allow us to actually redesign their interview process, and yeah, we're looking at anywhere between three to four weeks from start to finish, yeah. Unless they've got some ridiculous process that's unchangeable of like six, seven interviews. But generally speaking, if it's between two to four interviews, yeah, in this market it moves so quickly, we need to get to a point where you're hiring within three to four weeks. - Which is why those that, like weekly sync call, we're having that just always. - It's so important. How quick does the working week go? - Mm. - And it also puts a level of urgency on yourself to make sure that you're maximizing the time. Wait, I mean, I've got to speak to my client in five working days and give them an update on who I've got. I better get my act on, whereas if you just leave it open ended, I still don't feel like you're offering a world-class service. - I love that. So you just had two people join the business. - We have. - Your first US nationals to join the business, which is obviously really exciting, right? - Jason Taylor, yeah. - That's why you're building a US business, right? - Yeah, 100%. We're very open-minded, and we've obviously got the E2 business. visa approval that myself and Jair on so we can bring amazing, high billing industry, relevant recruiters from the UK but ultimately the majority of our employees are probably going to be US national if we're here on the ground. So what are you doubling down on? What are you really excited for? What's going on? Just in general with the team like what's top of mind for you? What are you really going to just focus on? I started with recruitment. We've got quite a clear strategy here in the US. Definitely for the first two, probably for the next two as well. We decided to hire experienced people so we've hired salespeople from our industry. They're no sales, they're high performing salespersons, they've been selling the products and the niche that they're going to be working within for us. So we teach them recruitment process. We teach them all those great things we're talking about today, control, standards, lead chasing, business development, all those great things. They understand how to sell their relationship builders, their great people and their high performing salespeople and they know their markets. It's hard to get them but we worked really, really hard to get them. We just teach them process. So we've deliberately gone down that route as opposed to going with the more traditional entry level or junior recruiter here. We realised that credibility is so important in medical technologies. Just to the sort of I guess the education and the level of the people we're dealing with, see level and otherwise. A lot of academics and people coming from medical industry, they're highly intelligent individuals. They kind of expect credible people, experienced people that know their space when you pick up the phone to them. So that's something we're doubling down on making sure that we hire the right people. And if that means we hire less, that's fine. It's about quality. And then when they're in the business, we're doubling down all the things we spoke about today. They don't know recruitment so that they know no different. So we're training as if retained work is standard. That's just how we operate. Doubling down on that. I'd rather each of them have four committed, explosive retained clients and that would 15 multi agency. So I'm doubling down that. I mean if they can have eight to ten, 14 retained clients even better. But if I'm given the option, it's about the quality of our work, high fill rates, world-class service and you know, we're doubling down on specialisms as well, making sure they really play in their area because they're all big enough markets across the United States. So yeah, I think I'm just using all of the mistakes and failures maybe that I've made naturally like we will have over the years and seeing this as a great opportunity to build on a great projectors business but build a projectors USA business from the ground up and quality first always. Love it. Look, I think this is why I do generally just love industry so much. One, the amount of skills that you learn. There's so many skills that you collect and build other times in the industry. And then also when you're in the right environment, when you're in the right business, you can generally be given like life changing opportunities. You've moved you and your family to the US. You've now got this really unique opportunity to build something to leave your mark like whatever you want to call it, right? And recruitment is never used to do that. So really excited to see how it all unravels from afar but like no doubt, like I just love your passion around this quality piece and this is what it's all about in the day. Like they'll just hopefully be more and more people in the industry with that commitment and what does that mean just more and more people are going to respect our industry because they have a quality service when they work with people like you in these days. Big thing in US, by the way, it's just seen as a genuine like career and we know it is an amazing career, right? Because we're in it. We've seen it, we've lived it, we've breathed it. I don't know what your perspective is but it's not necessarily for the average person that hasn't worked in recruitment. Doesn't necessarily see it that way. No, not in the UK. In the UK, in the US it's definitely the headhunting thing definitely fills that way. And just the final point, those persons in our business have a huge opportunity. Absolutely right. Jay, Taylor, Jason, huge opportunity. These are leaders, directors of the future, Jay's already a director, but they can all build their specimens. They can all split it four or five different ways. So we want to get to 20 people in the next five years, it's five million revenue, which is so achievable without a amount of people. It's like $300,000 average per head. So a lot of this is going to be doing a lot more than that as we already are. But then you can have some newer people and some more junior people coming through the business of that time as well. So people that join our business now, the ones here and the next two, three, huge opportunity to build their own businesses within our business. So yeah, huge opportunity. So it happens. Can't wait. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode. I hope there were plenty of golden nuggets for you to take away. As you know, I'm your host here of the recruitment mentors podcast, but I'm also the founder of recruitment mentors. We're a online subscription based learning and education platform. We're on a mission to help thousands of recruiters achieve their professional goals and successfully progress their careers through modern and engaging online learning. So if you already a recruitment business owner listening to this, there's a good chance that you value self-development, personal development. You're trying to develop a culture of continuous improvement. But we've partly with a number of grown recruitment companies who were struggling to understand how they can invest more in their people, how they can upskill them more quickly without spending more time, without having to spend thousands of pounds of external trainers, and we've ended up being a really great fit, modern fit for recruitment teams. We can ultimately help you get more out of your teams by giving your people access to modern and engaging online learning, which they can access on demand. The thing that's really cool about what we're doing with recruitment mentors is that all of the people that your teams are able to learn from and the people that are delivering the learning content are people that are in roll right now. They're billing, they're actively facing the challenges that your teams are and a lot of the time they're amongst the top performers within their companies, which means your teams are going to be way more confident to learn and spend on their learning when they know they're learning from people that are doing it right now, have been there and done it. There's nothing worse than feeling like training is not relevant and not current. The best place to find out more about recruitment mentors and if we can help you accelerate your team's performance is a semi-emissive on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn directly, and I'd love to connect with you and find out if we can help you get more outwalled to your people.