Upcycling discarded denim with Anna Foster of ELV Denim

Hello and welcome to the late episode of Material Matters with Grant Gibson. For listeners who might be new to all this, the idea is that I speak to a designer, maker, artist or architect about a material or technique with which they're intrinsically linked and discover how it changed their lives and careers. Today I'm delighted to talk to Anna Foster. Anna is the founder and creative director of the Sustainable Fashion brand ELV Denim, a company that saved tens of thousands of pairs of genes from going into landfill, upcycling them into something genuinely desirable instead. She started her career in magazines and worked as a fashion editor for 20 years, at titles such as Exit and ID, before becoming fashion director Lula and fashion director at large at Australian title Rush. Since launching ELV, short for East London Vintage incidentally, in 2018, she's won a slew of awards, nominations and accolades, including responsible brand of the year from Country and Townhouse, and Warpoles Brands of Tomorrow 2025. Anna, thank you very much for doing this. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you. Got it. Sounds very impressive with all those lists. It's quite an impressive CV. Was that all recently accurate? Yeah, totally. Really. Yeah. Yeah. Very impressive. It's always slightly curious reading somebody's life out in front of them. It's never entirely comfortable, but good. I'm glad it was accurate. I mean, my life seems to be like nothing really happened till 2018. I've spent my forties being very impressive and clearly my time for my forties was less impressive. Well, impressive forties, I think, is good. We have a tradition on this podcast of asking people a little about their working environments, the idea of being that you can understand more about a person from the way that they work. I mean, we're talking across a screen right now, but where are you today? You're not in the studio. I'm guessing. No, I'm not in the studio because I've learnt from past experiences that no matter how hard you try, it is extremely noisy and the Wi-Fi is terrible. So makes the sound like we're in the country next to loads of, I don't know, cows and combine officers, but we're not wearing East London, but it's very echoey. And so I'm currently at my home in a very messy office, which I'm trying my best to fill the screens so you can't see. OK, well, let's cheat a little bit then. Imagine that I ask. Yes, exactly right. Talk about your studio or I guess do you call it an Atelier? Yes. Well, it's a studio/Atelier. We make quite a bit of our collections and our pieces there. I guess you'd say it's about a quarter atelier, a quarter studio, and then half we store all the vintage denim, the unwanted denim that we rescue. Yeah, yeah. So you're surrounded by denim in other words? Yes, yes. I mean, when I first started it was in my living room downstairs and you can imagine it was quite overbearing. I mean, that was in the beginning. You know, it's a very much a kitchen table business that it started. And now we're in a 2,000 square foot studio. You walk in. It's actually quite impressive when you walk in. There's just rows and rows of denim. Then to the right we have our desks and a little kind of showroom where we have the collection that we're currently selling. And then to the left we have three or four big cutting tables and sewing machines. We do a lot of QC and we do a lot of QC as somebody who's not from the fashion world. Quality control. Sorry. So a lot of quality control happens when we receive the material. We call it raw. I'm using inverted commas raw material. It's the vintage garments. And then there are lots of small techniques that we have to do to each garment once it's been made either with us or at a local atelier. When it comes back it has to be QC again and we have little tweaks. So we want our customers come to us because we have a desirable product and it makes them look good and feel good. So we make sure that only if you know it's upcycled do you know most people have no idea and that's really I think what sets us apart. So we have we have really kind of strategic little techniques and developments that we do all the time that we improve ourselves all the time. And so that happens to the left as you walk in. There's a lot of we how big is your team? Well I say we're five of us full time. Okay. And then we have a variety of students from universities that come to us for their placement years. Okay. And I'm a correct in saying they're all women? Yes we are all women. Yes. Very good. Was that deliberate? No. No it wasn't. And I think what we do is very innovative and I'm not suggesting that men aren't as innovative. But it can. It's fun. However, I do believe that women are born to innovate. We're born because I essentially believe that because our bodies change all the time from the moment we hit puberty all the way through to our 40s and intimate we're constantly evolving. And so therefore we have to evolve our personalities or our clothes or our bodies. So therefore I think when you're creating a a business which is basically not turning its back but really it's revolutionising the way we manufacture that you have to have people on board that really are happy to say the status quo doesn't work. It just doesn't work. So far I've found that the women that have come to us really get it. We don't have to explain it again. I'm fascinated by this. I'm now saying this and my husband's got a startup business and he's innovating and disrupting. So he would totally disagree. Is his body changing the whole time? I wonder. No, his body isn't changing the whole time. Is yours Grant? No, you may naturally, you know, not so much. I'm doing all right. Thanks very much for asking. Yes. What do you know I mean, it's just like my brother who says to me, oh, I've got a dad board. I'm like, what does that mean? Anyway, we digress. So actually, your brother's a professional cricketer? Yes, he is the professional cricketer. Yes. Very good. He would hate me that way. It's got a dad board now. Just checking. Yes, checking. So I'm sorry, we are digressing. No, we are digressing but I also think that it comes on nicely because actually the way I say we've disrupted the way we manufacture because we are reworking existing garments and to new it actually allowed me to re-evaluate how genes are constructed in the first place. So one of the USPs about our product and what we make is that the gene can evolve with you. So there are a seam allowance strategic places at four places. So your gene can change with you. So yes, I was going to ask about the seams because they're quite prominent, aren't they? Yes, our seams are prominent. When I started our genes, we were known for this contrast colourway. And then you can see the seams down the middle and the back. And then we have our match colours. So it's not so obvious. But now we're developing more and more ways to use garments that really everyone's kind of given up with. It's a bit like we take, you know, the genes that come to us are really, you know, when you're in lining up to be picked for a sports game and they really go, we are the, the genes that we pick are definitely the last to be picked. We're going to get into that. And I'm keen to unpick literally some of that. But you have five people in house. What skills do they possess? So they possess many skills. Again, we all have to wear lots of different hats. So, you know, we all take out the bins. We all have returns, cleaning the kitchen, things like that. But there's myself. I'm the creative director and designer. And then we have a head of operations to make sure that every and production to make things extra that everything runs smoothly and to a timeline, which is extremely important. Then have a head of creative and marketing. So bringing to life ideas for lookbooks. I think every young brand or every brand has to have a real visual strength and a point of view and a point of difference. And that's where Martina comes in helping me. I mean, luckily because of my career as a stylist and art director, I have a lot of that anyway. And I, it's really good to find someone that can really finish your sentences or really finish your mood boards for you. And so I have that with her. And then we have a production coordinator and a studio coordinator. That's five with me five. Yeah. And making locally. Yes. It's very important to you. And when you launched, you drew like a, you tell a story of drawing a five mile radius around your studio and you found all the skills you needed within it. Is that, is that still the case? Yes, I'd actually say it's three miles. I think I overestimated how far things are. I've never been good with spatial awareness, I think. But I guess I realized that. But I didn't set out to do that. It's just I didn't really want to go very far with all the materials. I wanted to make sure, I wanted to really control that's around and control what we did. And the idea, firstly, we couldn't do it because we would have to ship all our really heavy jeans, wherever, whether even if it's out up north, we'd still have to transport those garments. And then once they're been paired together because two jeans make one jean, they have to stick together and they have to stay together. It's vital. So if we were going to be sending it somewhere where we couldn't control that, the idea of all the hard work we've done, sourcing the denim, washing the denim, making sure that all all the notes and all that work we've done before for it to just to offshore it for someone else to manufacture and make a mistake would be terrible because we can't just, you can't just roll, order a roll of fabric and it can repeat itself, it's not that. The actual manufacturing stage is such a small part. There's so much work that's done before to kind of prep the material in a way to actually make it to the Atelier point and also I'm a river control freak and I want to be there and also I think we've got incredible skills within a three or five mile radius of my studio. Well, in East London, certainly, because in other parts of the city, possibly not so much. No, I mean, if North and East is pretty, I think it's quite concentrated there. I don't know many manufacturers in West London. We have some in Mana House, we have Poplar and I kind of walked and stole like E17 round that way. We got Black Hills Lane Atelier around there, right? Exactly. I used to work with them. I used to. And there's been on the podcast years ago. Han was. So I first started with him and I think that's one lesson I did learn beginning, you know, putting all your eggs in one basket. I'm quite a loyal person and then Han's business model changed and he didn't want to kind of make as much other people as he was. And I was like, oops, I've got a little bit of a problem here. And but actually by doing that, we found some incredible atelier is that we work with and want to work with us. Because I think they see that upcycling is also the future. Well, it's quite reassuring because obviously, you know, the kind of the clichés that we don't make anything anymore in this country, but we do, don't we? There aren't plenty of makers out there. Yeah, I don't know. Yes, we do. And we sample a lot here. I know that the atelier is we work with that, you know, sometimes they everyone samples with them. But then once they've perfected it, then they take it elsewhere. And I think that's a little bit mean really. I think it's, you know, I think there's a disproportionate emphasis put on the cost of goods. But then we forget about the attributed cost, like the traveling elsewhere and, you know, staying overnight. And by the time you've actually taken that, I think it's a false economy to really manufacture a broad. Um, but that's assuming, you know, I've got no idea that you're getting cheaper material and cheaper, like, like really cheap labor. I mean, to me, it's, it's really just like devaluing the quality skills that, that's so that people that so do, I mean, I don't know if you know many people that could whip up a t-shirt together. There aren't many. And there's not many that do it well. So I think we really have to celebrate those manufacturers and those crafts people. No, absolutely. Celebrating craft. That's something we do here. Um, so look, this is a podcast about materials. Shall we talk about denim? Because it's hugely popular. Yes, I'm triple deniming if you could see my trousers. Seriously, denim. I'm boss girl today in my tie. Yeah, I'm wearing a pair of high denim trousers that I've had repaired about three times now. So I take denim quite seriously. So pretty much everyone has at least one. I think the average is like seven pairs or something in their wardrobe. Yes. A bit of history. Levi's first riveted jeans were made in 1873. And nowadays it's estimated that we produce 1.5 to 6 billion pairs of jeans a year. Yeah, it's four billion from Newsweek. But it was set to produce 6 billion by 2030. But it's problematic. And so what are the issues around denim? I think the quality of the actual fabric that is now produced, stretch, that is put into jeans, which yeah, we'll talk about stretch, I think. Yeah. And also the time that we put into making these garments. And also the design is, you know, as you say, being making the general shape of denim was the same since 1892. I always say the 50s because it's, you know, that's really when it kind of burst into kind of the wearable scene and the fashion scene. But it has been produced since 1892. And it's still manufactured and constructed in the same way. And I think something that's been around for a hundred odd years probably needs a bit of overhaul. But there are problems with the process of making that. I mean, the amount of water, for example, yeah, into the actual material itself, the exhaustive water consumption. I mean, that's really wasn't questioned until very recently. So it's something like 3,800 liters of water, go to make a single pair of jeans. Same as you drank in 13 years. Yeah, it is, it is nuts. And I think from what we, I can only, I only have reference of what I experience and what I see and what I hold. And the jeans that have been made that have got rigid denim and they probably were used in the exhaustive waterway, the quality of that denim is very different from the quality of denim now. But I think you can grow, but I believe, because we don't really use any virgin, we don't really, we don't use virgin fibers. So I'm not, I don't read the research. I don't hear all of those statistics, you know, I'm not sold a yarn of, you know, reams and reams of fibers that have been made in this way or with no water and let's start, you know, I don't hear that. It's not really in our, because we just deal with the problem afterwards. But okay, so if we assume there is a problem with the amount of water, what it does to the soil, the indigo dyeing process, which produces toxic water. And the sand blasted. All those fun things. Yeah, all that. Well, if we assume all that is happening, that's the issue. So therefore what does your company for those that don't know it, due to combat that? So when we produce talk about, let's say, for this conversation, we're saying that Jean four billion pairs of jeans are produced a year. I would majority aren't worn excess production over production, poor production, lots get thrown away, jeans are used thrown away because the quality isn't very good. So that's fall apart. I mean, my son bought a pair of jeans. I mean, another shame on my plight on my, blot on my family is that all the only person that wear my jeans is my husband and my nine-year-old. My 19-year-old and my 16-year-old refuse to. Anyway, he provides me, it gives me a pair of, my daughter goes, oh, mom, I've got a rip in my jeans. I mean, don't talk to me. And my son said to me, coming back from uni, he was like, oh, God, all these, I've got loads of holes everywhere. It could you fix them? And I said, do you want me to take your cheap jeans up to my studio and have my team repair them for you? We've got, you know, yes, we can, but actually, it's a matter of principle that they've got to figure out how to repair them themselves. And I think that is a real case in point that both my kids have pairs of jeans that have probably lost about five wears. So you throw them away and well, you probably give them to the charity shop because you think that's what happens to them, but they don't. And I don't know if you've had this, sorry, if I'm repeating a previous. No, no, no, I am intrigued at this because I think people maybe don't know that when you take your jeans to the charity shop, you put them in the container, whatever, what happens? What happens to those jeans, then? So we obviously think that charity shops can absorb all this rubbish that effectively are giving them. They can't, they work with textile associations. Obviously, they take the bits that they know they can sell because they need to make money for their charity, which is token understandable, but they can sell the rest of it by weight. And that includes, you know, probably tights with holes in it, you know, really terrible things that people put on the doorsteps of the charity shops. And the textile association will come and give them a cost, a price per kilo. And they take it away. And, you know, back in the days where everything was on shore, we would sort it into different categories and find a solution for it. But now, we, it's labor is too expensive. We offshore it to various partners, different textile association will have different partners across Europe, across South America, Middle East, Asia. And we Frank just sent it there. And then when they receive it, they divide into categories, doing the work that we should do in the UK. And then we buy it back. Okay. So is this where you source your denim? No, sometimes we go to some place textile associations, but now with the fast pace, everything just gets offshoreed so quickly. And then obviously, you've got the secondary markets that is all goes to, you know, like Ghana. And we go to, but then when they go to the textile facilities abroad, then gets divided back and divided and brought back. We go, that's where when it's brought back, it's brought back, generally by hot textile wholesalers. So you'll visit them, they're generally in the north of the country and some in Wales. You go there, you hand pick, sometimes used to buy bails. And that's what we received to our studio. But then at the end of that month, the textile association is respecting another delivery, sorry, the wholesaler, excuse me, expecting another delivery. So the textile association will come in, clean it all up, send it back over to India. Then they divide it back up again, and then we buy it back. So it's just this, and the things that aren't being taken or rescued are all the grade BCD denim. Grade A is probably probably siphoned off, taken by your small vintage store in your local town, and then that has a life, and I don't want to touch that. That's already got a purpose and a supply chain that doesn't need to be interfered with. What I want to take is all those things that aren't rescued, that aren't valued, because I can see a really nice pocket detail, or I can see a real nice hem detail, or I can see a really great material that is just floundering in a style that isn't loved and isn't appreciated, and isn't really of any value. So that's when we rescue those. Those are our hidden jewels, what the diamond in there are, whatever that are phrased, I'm not going to start. Time in the rough. Yeah. And so we rescue those, and then using our methods, we were able to upcycle those into our collections. Well, I was going to ask about your process. So the denim that you've sourced, I mean, obviously not your fault, but it has, by the sound of it, done a journey back and forth from India or wherever, back here. Yeah, it probably could have done about 20 journeys at one point. Yeah. It comes into your studio, and then what do you do with it? What's your process? Well, actually, it goes straight to our Laundrette. It goes straight to a chapel corosh in Clapton, and we do have other partners, you know, as we, you know, we've had to kind of, you know, grow our washing facilities because we have to make things clean and hit certain standards, meet certain standards. So then it's washed, and it's brought back to our studio. And then we grade every gene. So every gene is graded on its waist, its rise, its back rise, its inside leg, its outside leg, it's the opening of its leg. You know, it has about six or seven different measurements. And those different measurements will help us categorize what that gene can become. One gene could become eight things, and then another gene could just become one thing. Depends on all the marks that we identify on it, the stains, the rips, what can't be hidden, you know, what we do is try and celebrate the really positive things in that garment and make those imperfect things disappear. Okay. Do you create any waste in your process? I tell you for a while because I met a young designer at new designers, actually, I think last year or this year, from Nottingham University, he was using your scraps to turn it into furniture. Yes. Which I thought was really interesting. Yes. So when I first started, I was making two genes into two genes. But then that was me taking kind of off-miss shaped grade A genes that, and it was actually meaning that I was ignoring all the problems, problem denim that was there that I really wanted to stop being a problem. And I thought if I can give that those genes a purpose, then we're kind of onto a bit of a winning streak that we can actually reduce this huge, we can put a deficit into these huge mountain piles of denim that it's just growing and growing and growing. And we're still producing and producing. So I have to come up with something. So I was choosing two grade B pairs, putting them together. And of course, I have the excess bits of each half that I'm not using. So, you know, I guess one person could say, well, I've done quite well doing that. But I want to try and find a resource, a solution for those pieces that we're not using that aren't going into the genes. So we started cutting out pieces, making strips, kind of making these patchwork pieces. We called them maps. I don't know why. I came up that name, but they call maps. And then we put our pattern pieces on the top. So, and then with even thinner strips, we crochet with that. And then, oh, do I have any here? Then with our final bits, we turn, final scraps, we turn it into paper. Yeah. So, yeah. And then we use all our swing tags that made from our paper, which is made from denim. And the only thing that we haven't found a solution for yet is all the rivets and buttons that we remove from the original brand. But we have someone working on that now. Okay. And we alluded to this earlier. You're not into stretch genes. Although, I think you are working with them now. What's the issue with stretch genes and why the change of heart? I was a real avid wearer of stretch denim myself in the, I guess, in the noughties and the late nineties. And, but it just really annoyed me that they stretch out of shape and have to wash them, tumble dry them, wear them, wash them, tumble dry them to get them back into shape. And it, but it didn't even, I didn't question that. I didn't question that it was okay. That's something I'd paid good money for was not serving its purpose. And, and it really annoyed me that I was okay with that. It really annoyed me that genes weren't fitting most of my friends. So, stretch when you put it into a last, a last stain is on one in the weft, warp or the weft. It's a polyurethane based fiber, isn't it? Yes. And it kind of it woven in one side and the cotton is the other side. So, once they're together, you really can't separate them. You can chemically separate them, but you get left with two lumps, two rock hard lumps, which are unusable, unusable. And a last stain stretch, poly, obviously in the more technical word you're using for it, has a great place in underwear, sportswear, totally understands swimwear, where it doesn't have a place in denim. And I stretch it only there to convince people that they need to wear it because it's going to fit their body using the same constructions that genes were made. And they're not, they're designed not to last, so you then you buy another pair and another pair and another pair and you throw your stretch away. Some, you know, really expensive stretch does last, but it's very rare that you get the extrinsive last stain put into a often expensive product. So, you have a problem where you have all these stretch genes being thrown away, and I'm not going to incorporate those into my genes because then I'm just perpetuating the problem. And we are designing and constructing a garment that's designed to last forever. So, if you put stretch in it, it would basically, that would be a hypocrite. However, you've got to, I can't just shut my eyes again with the same scraps that I'm trying to find a purposeful. I'm trying to find a solution and a value in those stretch genes. And one value they have, one property they have is that they're lighter. And so, if they're lighter, you can incorporate those into your ready-to-wear pieces. Because at the same time, we were making these jumpsuit and dresses and they're quite heavy and rigid denim. And I was like, "Oh!" And it's the two things came together, and you realised actually we can create designs that are using the one single property of positivity that stretch denim has, which is its lightness. And I actually believe in any garment, in any garment, there is one positive that you can use to transform that into something that's what you could, with upcycling. Because upcycling is taking something that had very little value and giving it new value. You can't, there's no need to upcycle a really good pair of genes. There's no need. You only need to upcycle genes that are of a poor quality or have some kind of dysfunction in them, which render them impossible to use as they are. That's really what upcycling should be. Quite interested in your use of the word upcycle, which you use a lot, both in your literature and in various interviews. Because obviously you come from the fashion world, my background is more design and craft architecture. And the word upcycle, well, people stop using it because it had negative connotations. I mean, I don't want to disparage Etsy particularly. But you don't mind using it in your word. If I could find a different word that would describe what we do, because so many people use our words in terminology and I still need to create, I need to create, you know how Google created word Google, I need to do that with what we do. I'm just going to be like Flurgan or something. You know, I don't know. We're going to create a single word. So if anyone listening wants to, well, they're very, yeah, they're very verbal bunch, my listening. I'm sure they're good. Yeah, if they want to kind of submit some work because upcycling is literally taking something that has very little value and then you give it value. Sometimes when you do workshops, people say, how could you do a workshop? And then they bring in something that they love. That's not upcycling. That's just, you know, that's allowing an extra flourish or an extra touch to it to repair it, to give it. And when people start cutting up really good clothes unnecessarily, that makes me feel quite sad because that item can have a home somewhere without any intervention. We need to do the minimal intervention as possible to a garment, to give it its new life. And sometimes that can be as simple as giving it to someone. I hope you're enjoying the show. There are numerous ways to stay in touch with material matters. We have our fair in London, of course, and our conference in November. There's also our online bookshop which is full of inspiring titles about materials. You can find that on our website, materialmatters.com. Our next major event is in Denmark and is part of three days of design. Material matters Copenhagen runs from the 10th to the 12th of June at Ukraine House, Gamal Dog in Christian Harbourn. Returning companies include Eiffungi, the innovative Dutch furniture and lighting brand that works with Mycelium, and Swedish class artist. Anderson. Meanwhile, there are a number of first-time exhibitors, including Cypriot Design Studio Pitch Table, Bundle Studio, Recrafted Design Studio, British Basement Brand Cast, Swedish Rug Company Katia, and Drop Paper. Meanwhile, the likes of small materials and the only natural awards from the UK will be familiar to material matters London visitors. It's going to be great and we'd love to see you there. Check out our website for more details. You've said in the past that you aren't an environmental activist. You're an environmental enthusiast. Yes. What's the difference? Because I don't have any scientific background to what I believe and what I talk about. But I really am enthusiastic about the planet we live on. The way that profit can be disguised by people with greenwashing, I hate that, and the expense of the environment. I find that really apparent that people can be hoodwinked by what we're saying and we're not let out because the world is moves at such a fast pace that we kind of just take little sound bites and we're happy to believe what everyone because also we often want to make that decision that's probably not environmentally correct. But then we should own that and go I know I'm really really want that high street brand sequin top. Go and buy it. It's going to bring you joy and give you those endorphins and you're going to accept that you're going to buy that. Take responsibility for it but then just look after that piece. Don't buy 10 sequin tops. And I think if sustainability is all about common sense. It's common sense innovation. You know if it's the wrong thing. You know dropping your litter on the floor is wrong. You actually know that it is. If you look at a label of a clothes of clothes and it says it says it's oh this is a recycled garment and you look at the label and it says 1% recycled the rest. You know that it's not. So there's common sense and everyone has to live by a moral compass I believe. And your moral compass is there to guide you. And nobody's perfect. And we all just need to be 1% better. So if it means once a day, once a week, deciding which path to go down, do I go and buy a hand picket apple from a or buy it that's all pre-packaged or something in plastic. You know but the buying the apple from the market is going to be longer and take more time to do that. You know what decisions you're making. And you know sometimes you have to go to supermarket and you need a plastic bag because you've forgotten to bring one. Do you know and you so and you know that does my I hate that. I'm like oh god but I need to get something. But we all live in this part. You have to give yourself some slack. But we can be guided by our moral compass and accept those things. And if you're you think I could do better then just do better next time. I'll do my very best. I'm worried about my moral compass now. Everyone has a good moral compass. No do they? Okay. I'll bet. Yeah. Yeah we do. It's just I've speed and the quickness of our lives. Stop us from always seeing what's actually in front of us. It's something that's economic though, isn't it? I mean with clothes, I have this argument with people all the time because I buy very little but when I do it's generally relatively expensive on the basis that I hope it will last but lots of people they don't have that privilege of spending that much money in that time right. People buy fast fashion because it's economically viable for people. Yeah but that's a phrase given by the fast fashion industry to make people feel better about their fast fashion choices. It is. People that say that to you it's not facing the issue that the fact is that fast fashion are producing too much. They're literally suffocating our planet with the crap that gets produced and yes you're right it costs more money to buy a pair of my jeans and the jeans that you're wearing than it does to buy a pair of jeans from Primark. However, clothes have gone down in relative value compared to every other single commodity. Clothes cost the same as they do today as they did a hundred years ago and I'm sure everyone wishes property as they the same price as they did a hundred years ago but you know everything's increased, milk's increased but is increased you know papers and books everything has increased but the price of fashion has diminished and I think that's a real it's because we have so much more of it we don't have what we need we have more than we need. This is undoubtedly true I mean just going back to you for a moment you're not only doing denim now there's a linen range for example from a material that you source it from a hotel. How did that come about? Again I had a duvet and the easiest thing is to take that duvet to the textile bin and then suddenly I thought well actually I can take it up to the studio and we can use it for twiling and so we did that and then I thought actually that's really good material it's so soft why don't we start collecting it from local hotels and create something with it and now I say to any student that I come across I said look this is an amazing resource don't go and buy virgin go and buy rolls of fabric to make twals go to the hotels awesome if you can have that material. So you went to the hotel or the hotel came to you and said we've got this No I went to the hotel because I just thought if I've got a problem with one duvet what am I going to do with it what's the hotel industry do and unfortunately they get old textile association is is there is their salvation as well because it all has a weight and has therefore has a value and but again you can't just a white cotton shirt that is made from cotton that's designed to be a shirt is different from bed linen so it's much more crisp softer it creases a lot more so therefore when you're designing around that you have to create waves and pleats which means that when the item is worn and it does crease it feels natural it doesn't look like you've just got a shirt that's really crazy and looks terrible you have to develop techniques within that to make the garment be desirable. So your designs are predicated on the materials that you source in other words yes we all we always design from waste which is interesting because you know that's not how most people in fashion industry work I imagine. No and we tried to do it the traditional way once and it was a very expensive design. Yeah it just didn't work they didn't work I had a shape that I wanted to that I really thought I could and it just did not work and so now we have to have the material and then the inspiration comes to me and I know what you know sometimes it takes a bit while it takes a while but often these you know it's often it is able to come quite quickly and I guess that's my in my late 40s that was being my gift. Collaboration is also important I mean it was talking about collaborating with a hotel but collaboration is important to what you do you've worked with Hyundai a project you did with the outlet sounded kind of fascinating you used years of its unused dog to create new things. Yes and I think it I think businesses are realising they're holding on to excess inventory you've got and you've got car manufacturers realising they've got excess in their car manufacturing you know we did it with leather so you're cutting out all those seats you're getting the tiny bits and so we cut all those leather pieces out and create strips a bit like the same concept of the excess from our denim manufacturing we have those pieces that we're not using we have we apply the same concepts the different and you apply a same concept but then you always have to tweak it and you always have to develop it in order for it to be repeated and you know we we try with certain materials then we have to pull back it it's not working and then we have to wait and give it another go I'm really think about it because sometimes it can be the smallest change in their technique or that material science I like to call it a science because well we're innovating and it's in it we're creating a technology around this material that has never been done before and sometimes you apply the same techniques as you do from one material to another and it doesn't work and then you'd have to think okay why is it not working and some things you kind of give up on for a bit and then so you're like oh my gosh I know exactly what I'm going to do with that and then you're solving the problem and then you ride with that for a bit and then you find a new material it takes time to develop that into the collection but I don't think there is one category that we can't do I mean we're just started we've launched a collaboration with Sanders and design group the textile manufacturer that we create a collection that is will be launched to the public in August September but we're currently just putting it in market now and that's taking all their strike offs or roles is when when you're weaving a fabric you all commission it to be done in different colorways and then Sanders and say right say I might let's go with these two they've got eight that they're not using so this it's sometimes it's a strip of about two meters by 15 and then all these puppets that they don't use And rather than be taken away, we want to rework them because the material is amazing. I mean, and everyone has an access, whether it is a material, you know, material manufacture, whether it's a retailer like the outlet that have access to infantry from different brands. And that's a challenge because you have to disguise all the brands and make them unrecognizable. And, but that isn't a problem for us. It's never, never been. And then you've got Hyundai, where we took all the excess and then you had Gabriella Hearst, where we used our denim designs and our concept to create a jean for her. So there's different ways that you can collaborate with people. Yeah, you are positioned as a luxury brand. And I'm kind of interested in what the word luxury means to you. Means to me. Yeah. Oh, luxury, you have a high price point and someone said, oh, that's luxury. That's, that's what people, but for me, a luxury is a garment is can be designed and last forever. Our jeans are actually can be worn by people going through pregnancy. So they buy the have the jeans get pregnant. They take out all the seam allowance. You can put elastic in in kind of like V shapes. They wear their jeans all the way through their pregnancy. And then as they get smaller, the gene gets smaller with them. And if I can create a product that can last someone through that process, and then they can wear off the rest of their lives, then that to me is a luxury item. And also because they're, because they're all upcycled or flurgan whatever word we're going to use to describe in the processes. Flurganed. Then each one is unique and everybody has a unique garment. And that used to be only at, well, either of those kind of people that were really good at rummaging around in samples, or secondhand stores, or jump. But everybody should have the feeling that they're walking around in something unique that no one else has. And our gum, every single one is unique. But that would make some people say, oh, well, you can't scale that or that's not repeatable. We don't, we can get to a point where we want to be able to repeat that process again and again and again and again. Because that's how we develop the brand and that's how we grow. I also think it's a very lazy question to ask if you can scale because nobody knows the insides working of my business. And I'm not going to produce 100,000 pairs of jeans without a demand for it. That was my next question. Was it? I got you there. It's about how an if you grow and whether this local production stymies, certainly the traditional way you would grow. It doesn't. Is there a different way of growing? I'm kind of interested in. We have this perception of what is, if there's the demand and somebody wants us, somebody wants to, we get enough orders and we're creating 100,000 pairs of jeans a year, we can do that. We've got enough Atteliers that want to work with us that we can increase how much we give them. And then I have this larger grand idea of creating this global economy. So I have a local supply chain. However, as we've spoken, most of the jeans that we're getting from our local supplies haven't come from there. They've come from India and Pakistan and Vietnam and Dominican Republic and German, they come from all these other places. So we establish where these large places are and we take our methods and we create these ELV satellite studios where we're sourcing next door. And then generally next door, you have manufacturing as well. If you go to India, huge textile sorting facilities and huge manufacturing. So let's partner those two together. And so I'd be the catalyst in between the two. And then you're celebrating, you know, you're upskilling people, you're making it, you're, and then you distribute from that. And it's about sharing, you know, I don't want to keep all this proprietary information for myself. I want everyone to see the value of what these processes can do to your own business. I mean, you launched in 2018. Did you ever sense of where the company would go? Because I'm guessing it's a distinct risk what you were doing. I was doing it by myself for such a long time for like three or four years. That was only really in 22 when it started getting to point when I was employing more people. So really, for the last four years, we've been at it in earnest. And I still have that. I think when you're an entrepreneur and you are basically doing the path, a path of the revolution is the one of most resistance. And that's what we're doing. And that is you're always on this tightrope between amazing success. But you can also go the other way. And that's what being in innovators all about. And I've never thought of it when I started. I just knew that I had a better purpose than being part of an industry and not recognizing those moral dilemmas in front of me. But also, I didn't wake up to those. You know, I was doing the same thing contributing to this system. And suddenly going, oh, wow. Why am I requesting a dress to come over from a PR office in Hong Kong? Why can't I find something similar here? You know, when I was a stylist. Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask about your background, Anna, because obviously you had this career in magazines that we talked about in the intro, fashion editor, stylist, likes of ID. I mean, was there a moment I always use the word Amazon conversion as a drinking game amongst my listeners that has developed over this. Every time I say the word Amazon moment, there's a bloke in Australia who has to drink a beer. Anyway, was there a true story you got in contact with? That's awesome. I hope you're a Saturday night listener. That would be really concerning. Was there a demo zone moment where you said, right, I've got to change my path. What was that? I was working for a high street brand. And, you know, those were the contracts you really wanted because they were lucrative and you work with them for a year. And, you know, and it was just like, oh, this is the pinnacle of my career. And well, actually, it wasn't the pinnacle of my career. That sounds terrible. But it was this moment where I'd worked for this high street brand. I'd worked for lots of lovely other brands as well. But these are the ones and you go on these amazing trips around the world. And I was on an island, a tiny little island just off the Florida coast. And the creative director was lament, like we had to get this dress hadn't made it to the shoot. And it went on an emergency flight from China to New York. It then got a plane from New York down to Florida. It then got its own taxi down to the coast where we were. Then it's got its own boat over to us. And that dress was valued at $13.99. And then they retouched it. And they were also quibbling about my rate and how much I was costing them, which believe me was not a fraction of the cost that cost of this shitty dress, excuse my French, excuse my language, anyway, shouldn't really penalize. And I just thought enough's enough. I'm not doing this anymore. I didn't want to work for them anymore. And I wanted, and also I was the amount of times as a stylist. You're like, oh, I can't find a pair of jeans to fit. And then I realized we've been, you know, men have been designing jeans for men. And we've had to conform our bodies into that. Why? Why do women have to conform to what has been, we're basically essentially a male garment. And why aren't we doing enough about it to change that? So that's what I set myself out to do. And then I loved the feel of, and all the, you know, the feel of vintage, like, reworn denim is amazing. So it just seemed natural to me to combine my desire to find the perfect fitting pair of jeans for everybody, every, I mean, body, not everybody, every physical body. And then that's what I wanted to do. And so I set myself a goal. And I set myself restrict no virgin fibers, have to produce everything locally. And, and have to produce, have to celebrate that we can all walk around in something that's unique to us. Because fashion had become so homogenized, everything was the same. And it's quite easy to buy something new and give yourself a new lease of life. But actually, we should be celebrating really classic items in our wardrobe and creating our own uniforms around that. And I just felt that styling had, had for me what I was asked to do wasn't innovative anymore. My days of, you know, doing creative things for idea, becoming few and far between. become interested in fashion initially. I can pinpoint this occasion to when being about 14 and going up to my local hockey club or cricket club, whatever it was, and wearing. it was during the brass era actually. What was the bottle tops? Yes, I hear the bottle tops on your DMs, but I was wearing these little skirts and matching bomber jackets. But I think everybody had. I do think I'm probably looking at a rose tinted glasses, but I do think there was so much individuality. Yes, you had movements and like the romantics and everybody dressed differently. Well, there were tribes, weren't there, as well. Yeah, you definitely have tribes, but within those tribes, everybody, you didn't copy or you didn't ask for affirmation from anyone else. You just did your own thing, and then actually when I was a school with your sister, I remember going. We should explain to the listeners. Anna went to school with my sister. There you go, listeners. No, you know, I've been hiding that fact. Yes. But when we went to school, we'd have all these parties, and I would wear the crazy. I found some photos actually, and everyone else was like in jeans and a t-shirt, and I was in these like crazy concoctions, but I had a very traditional upbringing educationally, and I had no idea that you could have a career in fashion. Well, it seems to me kind of reading the notes that your mother was a pivotal figure in your life and career. I mean, she'd been a model, I think I'm right in saying, but she was also a maker. She made clothes for you and school stickers. God, you have done your research, yes. A little bit of research. Yeah, so she was the ultimate upcycler. She would turn nothing into something, and have such value, and she wore it, and you would never know that it hadn't been bought from a chic store. You would never know. And that really has been my grounding in, you know, standing out, not because you want to be a show off, because you want to have style, and she taught me that from a very young age. But I just thought I had to that myself. It was only when I was at university, and I produced fashion shows, and I was there. I suddenly thought, oh, my goodness. I didn't even occur to me. I could have read magazines, but I didn't even think about how they'd put together. So after I left university, I had a traditional normal job, and then started writing to different magazines, and wrote them delivered them by hand. And funny story, actually, my first work experience was the ID, and I was working there. And my fashion editor was an amazing woman called Fiona Dallanegra, who was just, I was like, in awe of her. But that was with her for two weeks. Then Jane Howe, who is still an incredible stylist, came in looking for a new assistant, and Fiona said, you have to meet Anna. She's on it. She's on time. She's doing, because I always believe that you do something 150%, you do it more than everyone else, because you just have to learn, and absorb everything around you. Even if it's doing the most media thing, you can still learn, and get experience from that. And I say that to any intern that comes to work with us, or when I was a stylist, people working the fashion cupboard, because you have all that information at hand, it might seem menial, but you know the workings, and where everything's coming from. So you can be a solution to someone saying, I need this, and you can go, I know where it is. So, and I work for Jane, but then, my log kind of lost touch with Fiona, and she moved to Paris, and then last summer, I went to a talk, and she was in the audience. And I said, Fiona's Alenegra, do you remember me? And she's now a bit of a mentor to me, and that's like 25 years later. And I, she's kind of been at the beginning, and now, at this part of my life, but it was, you know, I don't think you can now go into a magazine and hand in your CV, and go give me some work experience. It's a different one. Well, I don't really exist anymore. I mean, that's the other thing about magazines. I'm fortunate because I started magazines. Oh, did you? Design magazines. Where were you? I started on a magazine called FX. Okay. And I, as I went on to edit a magazine called Blueprint for four years. But initially, when I was there, it was my job to open the post, and a little bit like you in the fashion store. If you open the post on a magazine, in those days, because, you know, no email, you used to know everything. That was it. You know, you sift the poster, and you knew, you knew everything, you knew the names of all the PRs, you knew everything. But that's what I mean. You had all that information at your fingertips, then probably very rarely got filtered up to the high echelons. No, I kept it all. Yeah, but then you keep them for making use of it. Absolutely. In your back of your mind, and that shows initiative. Didn't you want to be a dancer at one point in your career? Yes, I did. I did. I was. I left, when I left school, having been at school. I went to dance college. And I would think that would probably have been the only time where I gave up. Why did you give up? I think because I just wasn't as good as I thought I was. You know, you go from being a big fish in a very small pond, and you go to a very big pond, and you're a very small fish. Because you're at love, right? Right. I did contemporary dance, and before I was very much, I would did ballet and stage, like, just hands. And I think with contemporary, they have to really, they have to mold you into contemporary dance, a very different technique, and it's a very different discipline. And I was 18. I wanted to go out, see my friend, or my other friends were like at uni and wanted to go and visit them. I guess my heart wasn't in it. And on reflection, all the other girls that were there, and boys that were there, were maybe a bit older, had done their, had their, whoo-hoo years, and then were actually be really focused. And I, at that time, there wasn't really that kind of pastoral care or conversation tutor led that you could have, because some of those students that were in the bottom group that I was put in, which I was horrified, it was because I had so much technique they wanted to change and make, give me different technique. But no one explained that to me. No one said that in a couple of terms, you can move here and, you know, I wanted clear goals set out for me, which is a sign of immaturity. And now, when I'm faced with barriers in front of me, you have to take a step back and think about how can you overcome that? How can you join forces to do that together? I just think, you know, barriers aren't, they aren't something that are insurmountable anymore to me. You can work through them, and I have the determination, and I think the maturity to be able to do that. And also, the maturity to sometimes say, okay, this might not work, but I do think that I gave up with the dance. And I was quite, was I, yeah, it took me a long time to go back and see dancers before them, because I was just a bit jealous. That's not a nice, that's not a nice attribute to have. You have to celebrate the fact that you've got these amazing people that can have that skill. And, you know, I'm pretty good on the dance floor now, so it's fine. It was handy. You didn't immediately want to go into fashion directly. I mean, you did, like, American studies at Exeter. Yeah. So you were looking for a more conventional career at that point. Yeah, I just, I, I studied American film, the author theory, I loved visualization. I suppose, actually, I would have, if I hadn't gone into being styling, I probably would have gone into art directing, because I loved the way you can tell a story just with lighting. You can change the position of a film. You can change the motive of a, of a hero, or a villain, or the femme fatale, or the girl next door. You can, you can just by lighting and colour, and the positioning of objects between you. You can tell a visual story without actually having to say any words. And I loved that. Absolutely loved it. And then, and then I got to live in LA for a year. So that was kind of also, did the course. And I still have my friends from there. And I mean, I was very lucky. And I was also lucky that, not lucky. But I think most of my peers in fashion were a lot younger than me, because they started at 18 and I was already like 25. It's age, a factor in the fashion world. You've started this company, I mean, late, but you're, you know, mature. I mean, there's a benefits to that. I think people don't think I'm as old as I am, which is really handy, because I think you can be a young brand. If you're, you know, but then I was over 40 when I started it, and I tried to apply it for the LVMH prize, and I was too old. And I was incensed with anger. I'm too old. This cannot be right. This is discrimination. And I used to find it frustrating that I wasn't further in my career, whereas some of my, but then I realized that you just got to let that go. I mean, I'm really good friends with Alistair McKim. He was assisting Edward when I was assisting Jane. And now he is probably one of these probably the biggest stylists in the world. And it's just your life takes one different trajectories and different parts. And I said to Jane years ago, God, years and years ago, when I stopped loving what I was doing, I was assisting her, and I stopped loving that. And it made me not be the best I could be for her. And I tried to explain that to her, but she, I think she didn't think she understood and she probably didn't understand for a long time because, you know, she's had a different assistance and she's moved on like that. But when you stop giving a hundred and whatever sound like Simon Coward don't I next factor? That was, you know, that 100, 200 percent doesn't exist. But you have to give 100 percent with everything. And if you're not, I think that is someone saying to you perhaps you need to think about doing something different. Is there a sense of what you're doing now? Is it in some sense attribute to your mum? I wonder. Yeah. I mean, I lost my mum 20 years ago and she was such an amazing part of it. And I think she would be so proud at my creativity, my determination, my damn right, never saying, never giving up. She would love that. And, you know, she's definitely my biggest champion because she's definitely in the back of my mind. And when I sometimes feel like going, oh my god, that's I can imagine going, Annie, come on, do it. I found all the letters she wrote me when I was living in an LA recently and just reading them and hearing her voice. And I know, and I, you know, when I look at the relationship I have with my daughter and so far whatever I, if I say, do this, she'll do that. Now if I do do that, she'll do this. But I hope at one point, she will understand the length, no, the length, she'll understand what I've achieved. And I know she's super proud of it. And I'm not, and I would love to pass it on to her, but I don't know. And I don't think I want to be in a position I want to force any of my children to do anything. They don't want to. Yeah, you've used the word determination twice. What has struck me watching a number of the interviews that you've done and podcasts YouTube, et cetera over the last couple of days is one of the things that kind of pours out of the speaker is the sense of will drive and purpose. What do you put that down to? Because everybody told me I couldn't do this. It's not possible, Anna. You can't take thousands and thousands of genes and turn them into new genes. You can't scale your production. You can't be a success. No, this is not, it goes against the status quo. And again, instead of the labyrinth girl me going, oh, all these barriers against me, the new me powered by my mother me, I guess, said, I think you're saying no because you don't know the answer. And I also think you're saying no because you don't want me to succeed. And I don't mean to say that, but I, you know, doing what I do goes against a lot of what people, how people legitimize their production. And I'm saying that there is a way forward that we don't have to chemically recycle materials. We don't have to take the easy way out. There is another way, but it takes time and effort. But that is what clothes, how clothes were made for so many centuries with time and effort and design to last. And we've forgotten that clothes are our armor, we've forgotten that clothes are have a really important part of defining who we are and our confidence. And I'm really determined, I'm so emotionally driven to make fashion and clothes, the important part that they were in people's lives. But not, they are important, but people don't understand the cost of what it takes to actually make that garment and make it really special. So, yeah, I think I'm driven because everyone told me I couldn't do it. But also, I just, I love design and I love beautiful things that make people smile. And if you can put something on and it's like, this is unique to me, I love it, people are going to look at, they're going to look at this piece and it's going to impress people. But also, I can put this on, it just gives me the security. Depends what you want from a garment. And when someone comes up to me and says, I couldn't find a pair of jeans to fit until I had yours on, then that to me is the ultimate, the ultimate kind of accolade. And that never gets old. Yeah. Ever. Very good, very good. Well, your youngest bear is home. So, I ought to let you go. He is. It's not fair keeping you talking to me when I'm sure you've got other things to do. No, when it's been such a pleasure, Grant, it really has, you know, an all your research, your terrifying research into like, very far back in my universe. I don't even know where that's written. Well, you know, if you search hard enough, Anna, but just before you go, for your last question, I feel like I haven't asked you any questions. I know that. You know, that's not your job. I can. I mean, you can, but you know, I don't think anybody's going to be particularly interested. But anyway, it's a standard last question of these, these kind of circumstances. Oh, gosh, I feel like I should be prepared now. What can we expect from you in the future? What are your plans? What are my plans? My plans are that I, I want to change the way people see sustainability, which is now, unfortunately, compliance and tick boxes. We've got to focus on all businesses being self-sustaining. And circularity now, again, is become this buzz word, which doesn't mean anything because we have to focus on circular design. We have so many students that come to work with us. And everything that they learn in their MA and their BA and their MA courses is all about circular design. And then they come out of university with all these amazing ideas and concepts of how they're going to change the industry. And there are no jobs with literally educating the next generation. Not to fail, but we're giving them instruments, giving them tools that they can't use in real life. They can either come work for me or they can set up their own business. And I want to develop upcycling divisions with every single business. We're going to have to do that. Change is coming. Change is are coming as they say in all those black and white movies. And you've got, again, this is why I'm not an environmentalist because they're regulations coming, EPR, so EPR, sorry, digital product passports, brands are going to have to take responsibility for their waste. And they can't just chemically recycle it or burn it. They're going to have to think of ways. And so if we can't just think about sustainability because that is not what we need to, every business has to be self-sustaining. So I want to, I want to, for the next few years, I want to be going into businesses. We've shown them, we can develop the methods, we can understand their waste dreams. So they can create a division within their business. So you've got, you know, outerwear dresses, upcycling or flurghans, knitwear, shirting, shoes, accessories. Because then you can revenue, you can, and also when you explain to them that this is generating revenue, then people sit up and listen, it's not just a marketing exercise. This actually generates revenue. And so that way, all businesses can be self-sustaining. We can all focus on circular design. And then finally, fashion has a future that is not decimating the environment. So it's a bit of a lofty task, I admit. But I've done other things that people said weren't possible. So let's see. Exactly. Let's see. Anna, that was fantastic. Thank you very much for your time. And I hope in five years we can have this conversation again. Absolutely. Yeah. Lovely to see you. Oh, thank you, Grant. I've really enjoyed it. Good. Thank you very much. You too. To find out more about Anna and ELV Denning, go to ELVdenning.com. You can also go to our website here, other podcasts that I've done to sign up to our newsletter and to find out all about the various events will be running in 2026, including material matters, Copenhagen. One more thing, it would make me incredibly happy if you went to my Patreon page and made a pledge at patreon.com/materialmatters. For as little as £3.50 a month, you can receive invites to various material matters events, as well as getting access to each episode before it's published to the wider world. Material matters is a completely independent concern and any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated. Ultimately, you'll be helping to take the message, the importance of materials, skill, craft and design to a whole new audience. Thanks very much for listening.