54. Unlocking the Science of Video w/ Vanessa Van Edwards

And so if you want to be more clear, you want to be more memorable. If you want people to enjoy what you're actually saying, the easiest, quickest way to do that is just to snap on your video. That's it. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing, and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieve desired outcomes, and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Hey, today we're talking about how people work insights into how we can connect and communicate more effectively with our customers, our future customers, our team members, and everyone else who matters in our businesses and in our lives. I've got for you a best-selling author and the lead investigator at Science of People. She's developed a science-based framework for understanding different personalities to improve our EQ and help us communicate with all those people I just mentioned. She's the author of Captivate, the science of succeeding with people. It's a book that many of us have read here at Bombom and it's even one that we give away as gifts because so many of the lessons are transferable to video. She can sell its company's large and small. She produces great content on our website and on her YouTube channel and is earned massive traffic as a result, approaching 30 million views on that channel, by the way. My guest today is Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Good. Yeah, I'm so glad we could put this together. We did connect in person once, which is something I can't say about all of my guests and so it's good to see you again. So before we get into customer experience specifically and then the science of people, you recently moved from Portland, Oregon to Austin, Texas. Talk a little bit about that. I'm guessing that somewhere in that process of planning and executing this transition for your family that there may have been some really good customer experience stories or some horror stories like talk about that transition. Yeah, so it's funny. I read a really amazing book, which I can't recommend highly enough. It's by Richard Florida. It's called Who's Your City? And I read this book maybe a decade ago now, right when it first came out and it talked about the personality of a place. And it made me realize that even cities have a kind of customer experience. Every place has a personality. So I'm born and raised in Los Angeles, which has a kind of unique customer experience. Los Angeles is, likes to feel like it's really the best of the best. It's a little sexy. You know, Los Angeles is a pretty cool place. Everything has to be super cool and casual in California attitude, but also exclusive and hard to get into. And I was a little tired of all that effort. I was a little tired of all that effort. So my husband and I moved to Portland, Oregon. Totally different kind of customer experience. Portland, Oregon, you can disappear there and be a wonderful, introverted author and have no one mess with you and just ask what kind of tea would you like with that book, right? Like that's the only experience. But people really keep themselves. And there's this joke about kind of the friend freeze where people feel like they have enough friends. I think that's definitely the case in sort of West a little bit where people kind of keep themselves. The last move that we did was to Austin, Texas. And Austin has, it's so hospitable. I mean, Austin is like this. It's its own kind of company. And they're all about bringing new people. So so far, I've found that they're extremely that Southern hospitality is there, but also that hustle. So it's been kind of a fun experience to see the different personality in each city. Awesome. I hope you're settling in well. And it's interesting the personality of place. I'm going to have to check that book out for sure. So let's go to where I always start our proper conversation, which is your thoughts or your observations or your definition of customer experience. So I think customer experience is how someone thinks and feels about your brand before interacting with it, while interacting with it, and after interacting with it. So for us, for example, for science of people, I know that if someone opens up their calendar and they see science of people office hours, because we have office hours for our students, they are having a customer experience with me, even from that calendar invite. Before I even turn on my office hours, for I even take a question. And they of course also have a customer experience with me when they're on office hours with me. And they have experience afterwards, whatever I lead them with, the feeling that they have after we hit end on Zoom or hit end on our video calls. And so I think that that's what it is. It's not just your experience with your customer. It's actually how they think and feel about you before and after. That's so good that ties to a lot of really good definitions I've heard in asking that question to many people. You know, you covered the entire life cycle from before they connect with you to after. And it's the thoughts and the feelings. And ultimately of course those turn into the stories, you know, that those thoughts and feelings turn into the, you know, the horror stories on social media or the positive online reviews or the referrals and all those other things. So talk a little bit about science of people on the homepage. There's just a really great statement that speaks to me personally. And I think it's going to tee up a lot of our conversation here is the best version of you is a powerful, charismatic, authentic communicator. How does that relate to science of people and tell folks a little bit about what you're trying to do with that organization, the various ways that you serve people? Yeah, so I, I like to joke, I'm a recovering awkward person. People skills just never came naturally to me. And I realized when I was on this journey to try to balance out my PQ, you know, growing up I was all the IQ, SAT scores, GPA, every number, you know, transcripts. And then I realized very quickly when I got into college that that was not the only, that was not the most important part of the equation that PQ was as important as IQ. But what I found was that a lot of the resources out there were written by extroverts, even like the quintessential how to when a friend's influence people by Dale Carnegie or looking at all the soft skills courses that were out there, all the authors, all the teachers were extroverts. And so typically their advice when you boiled it down was just fake being an extrovert to be able to make it. And I thought there has to be a better way. There has to be something different for people who are introverts or ambivotes, I'm an ambivote, I'm in between extrovert and extrovert. For us to be able to be charismatic and memorable and authentic or I should say charismatic and memorable while still being authentic. But I don't have to fake being outgoing or bubbly or the life of the party if that's not me. And that's I think how you belong to relationships. And so I decided A, there had to be a better way, but also B, was there any science? I remember reading how to when friends and influence people and thinking, is there any research behind this? A lot of it makes total sense from an instinctive perspective. But has there been any studies done on this? And so I started to do a big deep dive in the academic research. We have a database over 2,500 studies that are favorite body language studies, communication studies, relationship studies that we pull from that begin to create a people skills framework that's for everyone. That's not just for extroverts, but we have 3 different people that we try to speak to it, it's actually people. We really think about this as our customers. We have 3 customers. The first customer is our adventurous introvert. It's someone who is introverted and they love it, they own it, but they want to be able to grow their career, meet new people, find their soulmates, get a raise, ask for a bonus and not feel horrible about themselves. We have ambitious ambivots, so those are very, very high achieving professionals who can dial it up sometime, that they love being on stage, but they hate pitches. Or they love investor talks, but they hate dating. There's like usually 2 or 3 things they love and 2 or 3 things they hate. And the last customer bucket that we have, we've had to build a really nice experience for, is our goal oriented extroverts. These are extroverts who are incredibly talented people skills, but they have to channel it. They're usually they go somewhere and they're kind of all over the place and so our goal for them is to figure out what are your goals, how can we tie your exceptional people skills to them. So everything you see at a sense people is gearing towards helping those 3 different types of customers. So good. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people listening are immediately wondering which type of person am I, am I one of those 3 types of people. I'm also going to go out on a limb and assume because reading captivate was such an interactive experience, you made it so fun and useful by having things that you can participate with throughout the book. Do you have an assessment or something that's going to help someone I self identify? Yes, for sure. So we actually this is one of our most popular quizzes. We have a lot of quizzes on our website. Our most popular quiz is the Ambervert quiz. So it's a science of people dot com slash Ambervert. Cool. So when someone reaches out to you, I mean, I guess this happens to you. All the time it happens to me from time to time and the work that I do and it really lights me up and brings me back to life and reminds me why you know, work laid and try hard and you know, go an extra step now and then. So when someone reaches out to you and says, I saw you speak or I watched your videos or I went through your course and this one thing that I learned changed everything for me. You know, what are a couple of those things when people reach out to you and say, gosh, the work that you're doing is so useful and meaningful to me. Like what are a couple like top tips for someone that just is driving by this? What are a couple of things that have really connected with people that you can teach here briefly? Yeah. So actually that question is a really one. wonderful, anything, you're so good at asking questions because that was the question I asked myself while writing my TED Talk. So you have 18 minutes, and if you're offered a TED stage, I was offered a TEDx London stage, and you've 18 minutes to share something, and I thought to myself, what are the things that I've been, people have reached out to me about and said, that changed my life or that type I've used over and over again. So the one that I based a lot of my TEDx talk on was this idea that the brain looks for hits and not misses. And this fundamentally changed the way I think about people, and when I started teaching it, I realized it was a sticky concept. So here's kind of how I think about it. Have you ever been to a psychic or a fortune teller? And they say, there's someone important to you whose name starts with S, S, S, S, and you think to yourself, in your mind, you literally go through a little role at X, and you literally go S, S, S, S, S, you go through everyone in your life until you have the S person, right? And you go, yes, I have S, his name is Scott. The brain does that in every interaction all the time, and they do it with words and questions. So if you get together with someone, you ask, been busy lately? Their brain is literally going to go through their life, can go busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. Oh yes, I was busy. I am busy. And because of that, we are actually priming people or setting them up to think a certain way by the words we use and the questions we ask. And so if you open up a conversation with either there's something negative, like, "Oh, the traffic was terrible, wasn't it?" You're literally asking that person to think through their brain, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible, yes, lose terror. And most people don't like to be confrontational, so that even if it wasn't terrible, they won't say, "Oh no, not for me." And so if you're starting on the negative, you're actually asking their brain to be more negative, or if you're starting on autopilot, you're asking the brain to go to sleep. So if we're an interaction, and I say, "So, what do you do?" Where you're from? Great, great talking to you. That's like every networking conversation. That question means well. It means well, you're trying to get to know them, but you're actually telling the brain, "I don't want to talk about anything real. I want to keep it really safe and really comfortable." So let's just stay asleep. And so I think that the thing that if I could do one thing in this world, it would be to help people wake up. That can we walk into interaction? Get on a video call. Get on a phone call. Open an email, and just do something different. Don't ask, "How are you?" Don't ask, "What do you do?" Don't start with something negative that's a throwaway comment, terrible, traffic, terrible weather. So busy, so stressed, crazy season, right? Which is usually how we start those calls. But instead, can we take a moment, wake our brain up and say, "What's one good thing I could say?" What's one good thing? So first think about yourself, which is an amazing gift for your own brain. And maybe it's, "My gosh, the sun is out and it's glorious." Sorry, can I just show you my view right now? It's a glorious, glorious, glorious view, right? That really is. That's super nice. It's a glorious, glorious view. So it's such a beautiful day. So that's one good thing for me. And then I can ask you one good thing. So what's one thing I can ask you, Ethan, or anyone listening, that's awake, that's different, that's positive. I think you're giving the gift of being optimistic. It's great. I love that advice. And so just to translate that, I mean, I hope people connected with that right away. It obviously makes sense. I'm just coming off of a very big trade show event like last week. So there's a lot of this, like a lot of captivate stuff was alive for me. And I was looking to ask like more interesting questions to have more interesting conversations. It's absolutely. It does. In fact, I'm going to, before I let you go in a bit, I'm going to ask you a question that came up between one of my team members and me that came out of captivate that we were, that he's been really working to do and I've been trying to get better at myself. But when you're opening a sales call, when you're opening a customer success call, you're answering the phone or responding to a ticket. There's so many things we can do. And you can actually, I'm going to guess that you can turn around someone's day by heading them in a different direction because if they're on autopilot or if they're a negative earth, if they feel hurried or busy or whatever, you can send them off in this other direction that it can really turn a day around and turn a moment around. You will see it on their face. I cannot tell you how many times I've been at trade shows or conferences or holiday parties, whatever. And you're with someone and they're like that they have their brain and they're like, so how do you know the homes? And you ask to have any amazing holiday traditions and they go, oh, like you can literally see their brain wake up, you can see the dopamine flowing through their face, they're flowing through their body. And by the way, that's not just a nice thing, right? So yes, it's great to have positive conversations. It's nice to wake people up, but this also benefits you. So every time Dr. John Medina found that when you produce dopamine for someone else, it actually creates the equivalent of a mental sticking out in their brain. In other words, we like being around people who give us pleasure. And so if I ask a question that something's sparking, that person not only has pleasure, but they also create a post-it note in their mind that when they see my face, when they hear my name, when they see me at a party, their brain goes, that was good. I'm going to talk to her again. So this also makes you more memorable. I think it's the most authentic way to be more memorable. So good. It actually sets up a transition for me. I want to ask you a little bit about video. It's something that we both are very passionate about. And you've been using YouTube very successfully for what a dozen years or so. I'm going to guess that being able to put that stuff together by presenting in video as opposed to over the phone or through a typed out email or something else probably conveys some benefits. Talk a little bit about any the science around video and why you committed to it so long ago and what it's done for you. Yeah. So I joined YouTube in 2007. Like that's people, let me just tell you, imagine. So I just graduated from college. I went to Emory University and I tell my parents, I'm going to start a YouTube channel. My parents were like, are you wet? Are you who? Are you tub? I mean, like literally that was the approach to YouTube at first. Right. And I knew it was something special. I knew it was going to catch on. Everyone thought it was a fat. Everyone thought it was going to go away. And now YouTube is a surchangeant. I mean, it is the equivalent of Google. And so it's completely changed my business. And then I was very encouraged to read some science much later on. They want to know if oxytocin could be produced through video. And oxytocin is the wonderful chemical bonding of connection. I talk a lot about it and captivate. And they know that oxytocin happens when we touch shake hands, hug high five this month. And also when we make eye contact. But they weren't sure if that happened over video. And they found it yes. Even through a little tiny dot that I'm looking at right now through video we can produce oxytocin. And that was like, it was like adding gasoline to the fire for me. I was like, okay, we're already cooking. We're already like like the fire is there. I just want to ignite it. And so hearing that maybe you realize that video was the single best way for me to connect with my customers. It requires a level of vulnerability to get going. Now this is so long ago that you probably don't remember it for your time. I remember. Okay. So then go back there and maybe color something around this with other folks. I'm sure you're working with people who are aspiring to get a TEDx stage and aspiring to be more comfortable really in their own skin in front of other people. Video of course is a little bit of a different dynamic than a networking event than a TEDx stage. All these environments have their own unique qualities and characteristics and challenges. But speak a little bit to someone who's listening is like, gosh, that does sound really good. The oxytocin thing is interesting. But I just can't do that. Or I tried once and it sucked really bad. Give those people some hope and maybe tell them the story of an awkward YouTuber in 2007. Oh yeah. So a couple things here. One is I started in 2007. But if you look at my channel, you'll see that my videos don't go back as far as 2007. And that's because I've hidden almost every video from 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. So that's the first thing is videos actually they can go away in a certain sense. Right? Like when I send a video to someone, it doesn't have to be perfect and you can always do them over and you can always redo that. So it took me four years to get good at video. Four years we'll start seeing videos on my channel. So it takes a while. If you're not born with it, no one's born with it. And the metaphor that I give you is this. I have a 16-month-old daughter and she's learning how to eat the first time. Like she's learning how to use a spoon. She's learning how to eat cereal with her hands. And I was watching her eat the other day with such gusto and there was just food everywhere and she was just loving it. And I thought to myself, you know, every single person I know, every adult I know is an expert at eating. Expert. I mean, expert level. Every single person I know is great at cutting their steak and 14 food in their mouth. They weren't in the beginning. And so what I say is anything good takes a little bit to learn. So just like eating, I think that sometimes socializing in a different way or filming video or being charismatic or trying to find your voice, it takes a minute. Give it a minute. - Yeah, and you don't, and to go back to your authentic communicator from your homepage, you know, you don't have to be this big dynamic personality to be successful with. You just have to be yourself comfortable and confident in your own skin. - Yeah, like if I, if I tried to be Gary V, Gary V and I tried on my YouTube channel, it wouldn't work. In fact, I can bet you that there are thousands of people who are trying to be like Gary V on their YouTube channel and no one's watching them. I got on my YouTube channel and I was just Vanessa. Not even Vanessa Van Edwards, just Vanessa. And that works. The videos where I'm not myself, they don't do as well. And you can go look at my YouTube channel and I'll give you some insight into it. So one thing I'm really struggling with right now on my YouTube channel, very transparently is scripts. So I have a lot of content on YouTube. I want to get it right. I want to get it perfect. I want to deliver the best possible message with statistics and charts and graphs and examples, which means I write these really long, amazing scripts. The problem is, is a script, it's very, very hard to be charismatic. And so right now, I'm trying to weave myself off of scripts. And the reason for this is because I looked at my YouTube channel. And you search my YouTube channel, go to the most popular videos on my YouTube channel. You'll notice my most popular videos are the ones of me just talking to people. They're the ones of my news clips. They're not my talking head videos. So I think my top 10 videos, and this is what we discovered about it two years ago, my top 10 videos are from six years ago. And they're just me talking. Whereas my most produced videos with graphics and after effects and a script that took me five days to perfect it and music, they're not doing as well. And so I'm trying really hard. My authentic communicator, self is me actually just talking, which is still hard, even after 12 years on YouTube. - Yep, it's a journey. We're all on it. So for those people who are, let's speak specifically to someone who is doing customer, potential customer calls, right? Whether it's a support person or a sales person or somewhere else in the organization, but could even be HR looking to potentially recruit or pull someone in or whatever. They're doing, we're doing a Zoom call. You mentioned Zoom before. I use Zoom all the time. I a couple of my key team members are in other cities. And so we just hang out. And it's just a very natural, comfortable thing for us. But there are people listening to this right now that don't turn on the call or they're not using a video service for one of these synchronous calls. I'm gonna go to a very specific thing. One of the things we lose, of course, is the rich nonverbal, this eye contact, it's not really eye contact. I'm looking at you on my screen instead of looking directly into my webcam. But one of the really cool stats in there is that our brain gives 12 and a half times more weight to hand gestures. And so you don't have to be a big hand talker. Just speak a little bit to what's missing. If I'm gonna do this four minute phone call with somebody versus a four minute video call, what are some of the differences in the gaps there? Hand gestures or any other ones? Like argue to someone that they should probably turn their camera on. And by the way, I've been on that too. That's, I always find that super weird. Someone's on a Zoom call with me, but they don't turn their camera on. Like what's that about? Come on, let's talk to them. - Totally. So first let's dive into that stat. 12 and a half times more powerful. So actually when we're talking about that figure, we're talking about nonverbal. So our nonverbal is just 12 and a half times more important than our verbal. And the reason for this is because if I were to get on this call and say, yeah, I'm so happy to be here. You would absolutely know, even for my tone of voice, and especially for my facial expression, I'm not so happy to be here. Whereas I get on and say, I'm so happy to be here. And I smile and I have a big voice. Your brain believes my tone and my face more than the words, way more than the words. And so that's what they mean is that we tend to know that our facial expressions are voice tone, our body, our hand gestures, it's much harder to lie with those. So like for example, a game that I often play on stage, as I'll ask people to make the opposite hand gesture of what they're saying. It's really hard. You can try this on me right now. So say, I wanna tell you three things, but hold up two fingers. I wanna tell you three things. It's really hard to hold up the opposite number of what you're saying. That's 'cause it's physically harder to lie with our nonverbal and our body. And so this is one of the reasons why a video is so important is because the other person's brain is having a harder time comprehending you, remembering what you say and believing what you say when they only have voice tone alone. When I'm able to say I have three things I wanna tell you, you literally believe those three things more. And you were more like the remember, there was three things she had because you see it, right? Three, just seeing it. Or if I say to you, I have a really, really big idea. It's huge. And I'm using my hands to take up the whole screen. You're gonna believe that more than if I say, I have a really, really big idea. It's huge holding my fingers super small. And so we're constantly using hand gestures to comprehend. If you want people to enjoy what you're actually saying, the easiest quickest way to do that is just to snap on your video. That's it. - Great. It's exactly what I was hoping you would offer that was really useful. And I learned a couple things here too. So this is the fun nugget from Captivate that I've been trying to implement. I had a great opportunity to do it last week. Ending a conversation on your terms, like wrapping it up and putting a button on it. Talk about the importance of that and maybe a couple of techniques there. - Yes, okay. So actually one of our most viewed YouTube videos is on the art of the graceful exit. So if you really struggle with this, I have a couple of very specific tips on how to gracefully exit a conversation. So there's a couple of things you can do to exit. My favorite is call the future mention. So I don't know, have you tried this yet, Ethan? - No. - Okay, so this is my favorite way to gracefully exit. I have a whole bunch if that's it. This is not your favorite. So if future mention, what happens in an interaction is you're here, right? We're talking. We're talking, we're talking about this podcast, these listeners, these customers. Like we're right here, right? And so when you want to leave, you're thinking about the future. And so it's very hard to be like, "Hey, bye, see you later." And so a graceful transition is to mention something in the future. So we're talking, we're talking. And I say, "Sweethan, what do you have anything fun planned this weekend?" Also a good, priming thing, right? Something fun, because I'm even in his head goes, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, right? He's like literally searching for fun. And he says, "Yeah, we have this." Or you know what, I don't have anything fun, but I hope your sun has something fun. So even if someone doesn't have something fun, it's still a good question. And then I can say, "Yeah, yeah, I'm still looking forward to it, me too. I'm gonna go to the Rose Festival this weekend with my daughter, and I can't wait." Well, listen, because now we're already talking with the future, I can use that future mentioned as a jumping board for getting out of the conversation. So yeah, I'm going to the Rose Festival with my daughter, I can't wait. Well, listen, I hope you have such a lovely time with your family, Ethan. And it was so wonderful sleeping to you. And I'll be sure, future mentioned, to follow up with you on LinkedIn, email you that thing, send you that link, and it was so good talking to you, right? So I always manage, ask the future question, which you're genuinely interested in. And then use it as a springboard, talk about next steps, and then it's like a very easy out. It's also, it warms them up, that the conversation's gonna end. In case they have one more thing they want to tell you. - Love it, so good. And again, I think about a lot of this in a networking situation, but we find ourselves in conversations that need to end in a variety of scenarios. And so give me one more-- - Yeah, one more two. - Yeah, totally it does. Just give me one more quick one. One more quick ending, where you're still ending? - Yeah, yeah. - So graceful ending, any kind of follow up. So like your chat and your chat and your chat and your talking, but you mentioned something earlier in the conversation about this hilarious YouTube video that I've sent them. So you're talking, oh my gosh. Listen, I have to remember, wait, let me just get out my phone. I'm gonna send you that really funny video. Okay, me and note for myself, this was so great. This was so great talking. I'm so glad you're able to chat. I'm gonna send that video to you, and I'll see you next time, right? So you can actually circle back some in, you brought up as a reminder to yourself. Like I'm a big fan of like literally I'll bring my phone out and write a reminder to myself. Literally I always have a pad of paper and a pen because I'm like, oh, oh, let me-- That's so good, that's so good, that's so good. That just took us out of the moment, which is actually what you want, right? I want, the whole point is you're using a prop to take you out of the moment. So then you can say, this is so great. I'll see you next time. - Really good. So this has been awesome. We could obviously go. By the way, in Captivate, you leaned on a lot of the same research that Steve and I ended up leaning on and rehumanized your business. And so when I read Captivate, I was just immediately like, we need to connect. So glad we could, got together in person, got together for this conversation. I really appreciate your time and really appreciate your work very much. Before I let you go, I love to give you a few opportunities. And the first one is based in our number one core value of relationships. And so this is your chance to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career. And to give a shout out to a company that is really delivering a great experience for you as a customer. - Sure. So I'll start off with the company that I think is just, it's just nails that on a customer experience. 10 years ago, I got my genetics done by 23 and me. And ever since then, I'm in a relationship them. I've never paid them since that one genetic test 10 years ago, but we have a relationship because they have my genetics and they're continuous doing tests. And they do this incredible job of, I'm constantly taking their surveys, looking at their email, I log in the portal all the time. And one of my favorite things they do is they will offer a dopamine hit in an email. So they'll say, learn if you're predisposed to public speaking. I'm going to take a mini-mail all day, right? And then I take a little survey, right? Which is like, do you like public speaking? Do you not? I've been seeing this since I've been one of the early people for 23 of me. I do a lot of surveys. So they got my dopamine. I took a little quiz, which I love, and then I found out about myself. Amazing customer loop. But then what they do is like a month later, they say, you contributed to big research. Thank you. Which also makes me feel like, wow, I took three minutes to that survey three months ago, and I actually meant something. And so then they thank me with gratitude for taking that survey. It's an amazing loop. So 23 of me, they just kill it, like they just nail it. I have like a great relationship with them, and I haven't even paid them since. And I would, by the way, if they offered another service, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Doesn't even matter what it was I'd buy it. So good. And a person, I would actually mention my good friend Zach Souton, Zach runs brand new, which is an incredible social agency in Los Angeles. Zach was the first person I ever knew at Emory. He was a year older than me. Our parents knew each other, and he kind of introduced me to everyone who was really welcoming, really sweet. And we've stayed in touch ever since, like he's just such a great friend and great person to know. And then who knew that a year ago, we actually hired his agency to help us all of our social media. And so I just feel like sometimes you don't know a relationship is gonna go, but you just like someone, and those are the best kind of people to have in your life. So if you have someone where like you think we're never gonna work together, like we're gonna, I just like this person, that's the best kind of relationship to have. So good. Such a great answer. Both of them, and that tease up my closer here, which is people enjoy this conversation. They want to check out some of those YouTube videos, or they want to connect with you on social, or they want to follow up on science of people, maybe check out some of the coursework available, or check out Captivate. Where would you send to any of those people? Sure. So I have, um, Captivate is wherever books are sold. Amazon, I read my own audible. So I had a really good time doing the audiobook if you like audiobooks. And then the big one is signing up to our monthly insights. So every week I sent out a weekly win, which is either a new piece of research or a new video to our audience. And our newsletters are pretty amazing. And I know I'm a little biased when I say that, but a lot of people tell us it's something they look forward to most every Wednesday when they get it. So that signs people.com anywhere you sign up, you'll get it. Awesome. Vanessa, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for the insights. And thanks for helping people succeed in building relationship with each other more effectively. Thanks so much. Ethan, thanks everyone for listening. Clear communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance so pick up the official book, rehumanize your business, how personal videos accelerate sales, and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at bomb bomb dot com slash book. That's B-O-M-B-B-O-M-B dot com slash book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bomb bomb dot com slash podcast. [BLANK_AUDIO]