UNLOCKED: The full Stuart Lancaster interview

Hey there, Kiran Kennedy here. Hope you are all doing well and enjoying this blast of sunshine we're getting. Something a bit different for you this Friday. I am on my own here because Murray Kinsley is shaking off the jet lag in Sydney. Murray is on the ground for the 42 covering Ireland's nation's championships tests this summer. This going to be loads coming from him over the next few weeks and we're going to check him on Monday morning for 42 subscribers on our rugby weekly extra pod. So today to give our non-subscribers a taste of what a 42 subscription offers. We are releasing a chat that Murray, Gavin Casey and James Tracy had with Connick Tedcoach Stewart Lancaster a couple of weeks back. We already gave non-subscribers a taste of that conversation but we've had so much positive feedback and interest and the sun has us in such a good mood that we've decided to release the tapes and give you the whole thing for free as a sample of what's waiting for you if you sign up. And there's loads of great stuff in it about Connick's season, the tactical changes in their game and hopefully for those of you heading on all this soon, some great book recommendations straight from Lancaster's library. If you're not a subscriber, we'd love to have you on board and knowing what Murray has coming up over the next while alongside David Snade's brilliant coverage of the football world cup. It's a great time to get involved. If you'd like to support what we do here, go to the 42.ie/subscribe for the best offer. At the moment, a year subscription works out at 135 a week less than the price at 99 you're looking forward to having this weekend. Enjoy the chat with Stewart Lancaster and hopefully we'll have a few more of you joining in in myself and Murray on Monday. Chat you soon. I don't think we've met before, but I'm the referee on this team. The lobster could have me five million a year, I want to go. Hey, Chubby Mow! Robbie, Robbie, we're clean. Little reverse pass! Come on! Come on! Come on! Welcome along to your Wednesday episode of Rugby Weekly Extra with the 42. It's Gavin Casey with the year and joining us to discuss all things rugby are Murray, Kinslet and James Tracy and joining us again is Stewart Lancaster, that coach of Connacht Delighted Chat to use Stewart Harry. Yeah, good. Yeah, well, good. Just been back in the UK for a week or so, went up to Murrayfield, watch Dan Daniels playing for Glasgow in the semi-final, so he's pretty good. But it's nice that I went up to the farm and took my 83-year-old mum, who's the Scottish member of our family. So I took her up to Murrayfield, which is great. And then, yeah, I was just sitting offline there. Just been around the northwest of England yesterday on the train to visit a guy called Mike Kirby, who is my, the first guy who I taught P.U. with, who's head of department, he's 71 now. Brian Ashton, obviously you'd know, I want to see him yesterday. He's 79 now and then Bill Bezik, the psychologist, he's 81 now. So very conscious when I'm back in the UK to try and catch up with those people who've obviously upped a lot and shaped a lot of my life. And then a quick holiday and then back to go away for preseason. Beautiful. I'd imagine your emotions watching Glasgow are a little bit different to that of James Tracey's. James Harry keeping. Very good. Kyle, how are you? Yeah, there's been a big raft in the Lancaster household. You said he's off the Christmas card less for dad after a victory. Yeah, no, it was, yeah, I mean, the game against Glasgow for us, the quarterfinal, like it was, you know, one of those ones where you look back with a bit of regret. I think we definitely felt we could win it. Some key moments in the second half. We didn't control that well, but also probably went against us a bit, which was off in the way when you're playing away. So, yeah, we were disappointed ultimately, but overall, you know, if you just said to us halfway through the season, we'd have, we'd have got there, you know, we'd have been handled for. Very good. It's a look great to see you. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm looking forward to this, because I, I'm just, I always enjoy listening to Stuart. So it's great to get the chance to be part of this chat. I enjoyed the chat you had previously. And that's a great framing of a cheer because that's how I'd see Connick's season, you know, the challenges early in his you betting in your ideas and that kind of coming to fruition really in the second half of season. So I'm really keen to dig into it. And let's just do that because we're all rugby nerds here. The defense is probably the big one. Like isn't it? I think that's what everyone really was impressed by in the second part of the season. Connick's voice had that kind of attacking identity, but the defensive side of it, the improvement was there for for all to see. I'm curious how you actually went to belt that and what it was. You think that made a difference to Connick's defense? It's never one thing, but it's a, it's a combination of lots of little things, I think. And I think probably the start point was preseason raising awareness of the previous season where, as you say, Connick had a great, you know, attacking in 10, but ultimately lost a lot of games by considering too many points. And it was obvious, you know, you can see that from the, from the stats really. So when I came into preseason, we did a lot of work on our course goal and multi-phase attack leading into our strikes and how we'd build and obviously you've got the unit bits and pieces going on as well, the red zone stuff. But on the bottom of my, I was always waiting for the right opportunity to build in the importance of defense and layering a defensive system that all the players understood. And we could all buy into and then we could, we could apply during the course of season. So that happened during the second half of the preseason, let's call it. And then I just hammered, hammered down on the detail and the importance of the backfield and the defensive width and the spacing and the rough decision making. So once we had the system understood, then it was a case of like doubling down on training sessions and repeating pressure to make it embedded, you know what I mean, to become unconscious really. And it probably took until halfway through the season to really sort of get to that point. But once we did and by, you know, reviewing performance, repeating it, putting the underpressuring training, putting underpressuring games, reviewing performance, eventually it sticks and it becomes unconscious. I think what you saw in the second half of the season was all that work that was done in the first half. And I think in the players' minds, you know, we raised the importance of defense. So it was 50/50 with the touch rather than like 70/30. Obviously set peace, you know, you could argue it's, it's all, it's a third of each really way in mind that needs to be. And I certainly, when the big games came, would double down on defense and leave, you know, Rodsey and Cully and John Maldon to do the other bits and pieces. But I was definitely more defensive mindset as the head coach, which I think helped. You could see how much the players were enjoying that side of the game as well. And that was a big difference. You know, Connict always previously, you could see they just wanted to get the ball back and do the thing. You talk about pressure a couple of times there, creating pressure in order to improve your defense. How do you actually do that on the training pitch? Yeah, I mean, my job really is to take them to a place where they don't think they can go to the players that is. So I'm always pushing them beyond what they think they're limited. So there's certain, like we do three teams or there's certain defensive sessions we do. It would always be a tap of as a defense. So it's never just like defense day. But there would always be elements of repeat sets. Defend the square, for example. So we defend one side of the square. Then we have to transition folder on the pole. We end up defending the side. Then we have to go to the opposite side. So it's like a kick chase. And you've got two teams who are trying to break into the square. And you know, defend the square drill, if you like, is one of probably 100. I've got my head. And I would just vary, vary what I do in training sessions. So there are our movement patterns and our loosening and our holding folder, decision making and our spacing and our kick chase and our connections as we're running in the pressure situations gets challenged. And what also I'm trying to do is take them to the point where physically they're beginning to fail. As in like this is now hard and I'm now falling behind and now there's a triangle in our defensive system. And I'm on their backs to say, come on, like you've got to catch up and, you know, etc. So, so you create the pressure in training. And often it's not like we have three levels. Level one would be sort of touch level two, shoulder one, level three, full on. And I would vary between sort of level one, level two, occasionally going to level three. So it's not the physical component really, the bone on bone stuff. But we do do it sometimes. And but also alongside that you've got John Muldoon who's doing a great job on tackle technique. So that does that happens pre and post. So in my 40 minutes Tuesday, let's call it the core competencies and not, I'm not wasting time. The core comes in. So I'm assuming they're going to do pre and post. And by the way, as part of being a professional rugby player, you need to work on your craft, beat your tackle, your pass, your catch, your kick, you know, before the session. Because when we start the session, we're not stopping. That's how you take them beyond their limits. So you create failure in order to achieve success. And you're preparing them for, you're trying to prepare them for planning into the very best teams with the very best athletes. And that's the difference at the highest level is you plan against players who are bigger, quicker, stronger, faster. And you're preparing for those. And Glasgow's a great example. Glasgow would play. from the get go and try and make you make 300 tackles in a game and you're going to be prepared to make 300 tackles and still come out on top. One of the big challenges sometimes for us was what I would call in Rubeleague terms repeat sets. So we'd have a great defensive set and we'd get the ball back, be a line out and then we'd have the throw the line out and then have the ball back. And we'd have a repeat set, do you know what I mean? So how do you get the ball back as well as part of the defensive challenge? Was there a point to where you could feel as though what you were trying to indoctrinate in your players was actually landing? Was there a point in the season where it felt as though it was turning for you? I think it was all landed from the get go. Well actually getting it to landing and getting it to become unconscious and to be ingrained in pressure moments and big games against very good teams is a different thing, you know what I mean? And you know if we broaden the conversation out beyond defense it's everything from leadership decision making under pressure, staying emotionally in control, having a plan A and a plan B, do we play comic rugby, do we play the pressure game? All those little things, you know, you're always layering into your meetings, your training sessions, your want or ones. And so I think JT mentioned the compounding effect of all those little things gradually begin to improve the competency and confidence of the group. So that under pressure, you know, where in the first half of the season, you know, we didn't lose every game. It wasn't like we lost every game, we won every game. You know, we were still pretty competitive and if we did lose other than the lens to game at the eve of the dragons game, maybe one or the other, but we didn't really get smashed by anyone, but we were just a little bit short, you know, we missed some key line out, some Mr. Kutler go kick so whatever. So we were still in a fight and getting bonus points, but I kept talking to players about the glass ceiling and breaking through the glass ceiling, which means that we would then have the realization would come that we actually can do this. I mean, because part of the challenge come to Con I found, which was different to lens, there was probably some psychological scars from previous seasons of defeat and not deep down expecting to win. Do you know what I mean? And you have to break that down and get them to believe they could do it, but the belief would already have come from their confidence, which has come from their competence. And probably this zebra game away from home was the turning point, then we had a Glasgow win at the Dexcom. We had the all still win away from home with the storm was win away from home. You know, you could really and Montpellier actually even though we lost it in the challenge cup was a huge step forward because of so many young players playing the Dexcom opened. You know, there's a lot of little factors all added up the leadership of the group grew. The senior players bought in the young players got confidence and took the opportunities. So yeah, it wasn't just one thing. It was like a thousand little things. I said, I said a video to JT. It was been some company talking about his time, Burnley and the the hundred training sessions, the hundred meetings in a 220 training sessions to actually get it to land. It's probably about right. It's class. So just on that too, because I think it's fascinating. I think a lot of listeners would enjoy nerding out on this side a little bit more. The compounding effect side. Is there any specific meetings you can recall or lessons hard lessons learned early on in the season that were winning moments or, you know, change straight as the season went on. You know, it was very specific, I suppose, repeatable mistakes that were happening that we learned as the group that turned into a positive moment as the season went on. Or even even any trends that you saw that changed from specific moments or you calling out, you know, you used to love quoting leader is whether be in business, but especially in different sports, different elite level sports, knowledge, etc. Anything on that, do you want to go over deep around? I mean, every meeting is a learning opportunity and every transitions to learn opportunities to grow and develop. So when I set out in preseason, I have a sort of framework of ideas that I'd like to embed, but they come from so many different areas. You know, there's no one way I could say right you do this, but it's the so you've got the development of leadership and development of mental toughness and resilience within the group. And you can draw on lots of examples from sport and business and books I've read or whatever. So I would have talked a lot about, you know, a pair of panthers were a focal point for me because they would obviously in in our, we had a guest speaker Scott sold him came in and talked about sauce moments. And situations of the self deal with the situation, sort up the others and then deal with yourself, you know, there's there's an example and we talked about. Dougal, I'm off. It's perfect practice. How do you get better? You do perp her practice. So I'll talk about that. We had one when we lost and we talked about intensity and effort is amazing, but our accuracy was off and people were getting on each of those back and it was the billbelly check. Do your job. You know, there's a great great quote from him. And there's the Tom Brady stuff. There's I mean, I've written it down here. The playoff game mentality. So the difference between challenge cup or champions cup and you are see games, you know, so what lessons can we learn about being in playoff games as opposed to knockup games as opposed to actually lead games. There's managing the men to in games and how do you arrest momentum when it's falling against you. And I would sometimes I would talk about experiences I've had with Lens, still with England or whatever. I'm sure sometimes the players are thinking like some sort of therapy for security. But I'm not I'm not it's it's more it's more me trying to pass on what I've learned to accelerate their learning. And so yeah, it's it's everything really all all the things I've learned or something I find like I was one on decision making under pressure from the medical world. There was a direct customer off it turns of learning from states as a chess player, you know. So there's all that goes on in the meetings. Then you've got your training sessions where you're learning and being put into pressure and you're reviewing it back. And then there's the game right what do we learn from the game and never never avoiding the difficult the difficult meeting when we've lost a game and asking for a part of you from the group and forcing the group to talk publicly about what happened and why it happened. Yeah, and you have to create that you have to create that environment where people can feel they can speak without feeling you know they're going to be taken piss up them and whatever and I think we've a corner one of things we did really well was that we did that we have a connection meeting every Tuesday and one place times up until their story. And that's another example of you know how you're trying to build a team you know that that connection between people. So yeah, it's it's it's it's so many different things all we've together and every week is different and every time I'll try and build a. Message incorporate message into the week that will relate to the performance of the team in the short medium long term. One was I used to book the leadership challenge and I talked about the great what great leaders do and therefore we think it and planning and I found this great clip of Anton Leonard Brown sitting down the sports psychologist on a Sunday and mapping out this week what is what is when his rest was when he's training was when he's mental recovery was when his mental rehearsal was you know in the lead up to to a big test match. So yeah that's thousands thousands of examples that you do on a daily weekly basis and that's the compounding effective learning it's so stimulating for group and actually think you can see that in context players when they're actually playing roby they they look mentally alert and. Stimulated I would say just on the leadership which you've touched on a few point a few points there and indeed over the course of your career I'm really keen to hear more about how that side of the squad is developing again the evidence on match day certainly a keen vendor guest who's paying brilliant roby as an aside but also his leadership seems to be very confident and comfortable how have you seen him develops you are and others in the group because it sounds like everyone is learning in that regard yeah no no it's been tremendous tremendous growth you know where now it's. Generally player player owned. You know obviously I in the coaches we would look sort of lead the direction at the start that we would generally buy first date you know the players are really owning it and you know when I came to lense it was it was very similar once you got to open up the door and the mindset to we can really grow here as a group and if I improve as a leader I can become a better player and I can help I've never come up with a player. Then that leadership group of you know e-sensee were on Johnny etc you know they sort of took the lead and drove it on and. In Conor, it's the same type of mentality. I was very lucky that Jack Carty obviously just finished, but Jack was there to lean on for his experience, Dave Heffernon, Kill and Blade, etc. So this group of senior players, Mark would contribute even though he wasn't necessary playing. You know, Bundy really grew as a leader throughout the course of the year and really invested in it and really began to think more about it. And then you had your key impregniguses in your poor boils of this world who were absolutely brilliant and their sponges for this kind of stuff. But not all of the sponges, they are intelligent, they're emotionally intelligent, they learn, they reflect quickly, and they get it, they get it, and then they pass it on to the other lad. So they really lead well. So there was a, we didn't get it right all the time. There was the interpro's a good example. We lost our control of our attention in the lense to game, the lense to game at home, the stand-up and the high pressure of that game, because of the opening of the decks, coming down to everything else. So we definitely made mistakes along the way, but overall there was a real growing and maturity of the group. And Kean epitomises that really, again. And then I think what happened with Kean as well is that he, it's that confidence into confidence. So as his competence grew both physically, technically exactly, and as a leader, his confidence grew. And then when he went into Ireland camp, I think they could see the change in him. And I was definitely obviously in the background. And constantly working the, the one-to-ones, you know, be walking around the gym or catching up with players on a one-to-one and pumping their ties and getting them to believe they can do it themselves. And I can use my experience of coaching other players of similar levels and say, listen, you are as good as this player. I've coached this player and I know for a fact you're as good as this player. So believe in yourself and go into that camp and don't feel like, you know, you should have been there, of course you should be starting, you know, and have that mindset that you're going to start. And I think Kean really responded amazingly to that. But it's the same also, I feel like Billy Bowen or Harry West or Sean Norton or so it's not just, you're not just trying to give belief to the lads who are going to play for Ireland. You're trying to give belief to the lads who are at Cougarney Place, you're going to play for Connor, who will become the unplays. And so I would invest, you know, a fair chunk of time in them. And again, you're dealing with a group of players that are hungry to learn, smart, pick things up quickly, very coachable, and really committed to the team and wanting to get better and can believe in what we're doing. You know what I mean, there's a belief and the belief was compounded. You know, I was accelerated by the fact we actually got those wins, which particularly way wins. Which then believes that, okay, yeah, we've got some momentum now. You mentioned a few interproves that went the other directions to it, but like there were a couple where, I mean, like the ulster, a way win was one where I think most people sort of stood up and took notice of Colossal. Like you put together an unbelievable calendar year, but I think that was March if I'm not mistaken. It was like, okay, there's something here. Like, as in they're moving in the right direction. You mentioned earlier as well, for example, like that your mindset around a playoff game versus a regular league game might be slightly different, but like when you're going to be fast, for example, before you guys produce that performance, like what's that week like, or how are you building those guys up for a game of that significance? Yeah, I mean, the first thing is to respect how good ulster are and we're playing at the time and throughout the course of the season. So, you know, a deep dive into why are they so good? You know, is probably the start point. So why are they so good? Because they've got Numblywool skill set, a tacking team. They've got very physical, quick and big backline and a very tough forepuck as well. So if we don't defend well, we ain't going to win this game. You know what I mean? So a big focus for me was obviously understanding how their attacks constructed and then try to put a defensive plan in place that would mitigate against that, but also then have our own attacking plan which we believe would break down their defensive system. So, and then alongside that, you have to have your forepuck that's going to be able to dominate in the physical exchanges and get into the red zone and and competing etc etc. So the aerial game etc. You know, so there's so many different pieces to it, but if you're that specific game, it was more about really my mindset was all about how we defended because I trusted our attack because I know that the work we've done in our multi-phase attack and our strikes and our set piece, we've done a huge chunk of work of that and start the season and that confidence and that unconscious competence that we had which do you fare, you know, Mark Session who we coached against, you know, he put a lot of that in place anyway. So, so we had we had that inside us and then yeah, ultimately, you know, you've still got to deliver on the day and it requires a huge amount of work as in like high speed work to cover if they've got guys working on the back to become the extra players, we were to make sure defensively we'd match them and I think the metrics from the game when you looked at the GPS were off the charts. I think it was the highest game in terms of high speed running meters, distance covered, whatever. So that's why it was so yeah rewarding at the time, but by this point in the season like we were in to virtually like for us knock out rugby, like which every games and must win in the way the season played out. The teams around us kept winning as well. So it wasn't like, you know, we could take our foot off the gas, we had to go, still go and we had to be ospre as we had to be scarlet, we had to go to South couldn't get something and we did, we got stormers, we had to go to Edinburgh on the last game, we had to beat Glasgow at home, we had to go to Edinburgh last game and win and we got the bonus part and even then we only just made it, you know, so yeah, one of the interesting things that we discussed during the season as well was that concept of knock out rugby. And one of the questions I asked is I want you to write down how many knock out games you've been involved in, but it can't include anything, you know, from like school level or club level, you know, you're going to be, you know, as a senior player and what the difference between knock out rugby and, you know, league rugby, for example. And obviously I'd come from some knock out games in England, a lot of knock out games with lense to where you've finished the season, you've got a URC quarter final semi-final, Champions Cook quarter final semi-final, last 16 sometimes, obviously. So, you know, over the course of seven years, probably 30 odd knock out games, obviously russings are the same, there's knock out games, qualified in top six in the first year into the barrage, bit like this weekend now. But actually when you asked the question at Conor, how many players had played in more than five, there was two hands went up. So it's actually getting experience into the group when they don't necessarily have that knock out rugby experience. And the difference between, you know, having plan A, which is right, we're going to play Conor rugby, we're going to run it through everywhere, we're going to have a good attack in mind, so it will defend really well. And then adapting to the plan and depression when the plan A doesn't work. You know, one of the key things is in the great teams is they have this ability to adapt and to change the plan during the course of the game based on the circumstances. So it might be yourself and you know, you play multi-fays rugby, but then actually we're going to take three points here, or we need to put our foot in the ball, we need to play the pressure game a bit more, because you don't get a second chance. So we learnt that in the Montpellier knock out game in the challenge cup. And that definitely helped us towards the end of the season. It didn't get us over the line against Glasgow, but it got us close. And hopefully it'll stay in a little stunned to us because the group we have next year is essentially the same group with a lot more learning inside them. We've lost a couple of senior players obviously, but we've got some experienced players like Will and Keirin, for example, you know, I think I reckon it'll take one training session for them and I to get back on the same page together. One beating I'd say. And then obviously François Van Wick and one of the others coming in with all those experiences as well. I don't even think one training session should I say it'll be Wastel memory. It's fast saying, listen to that, like the thing that I especially throughout the Interpros was really impressed by was not necessarily the eye passing the eye test for Connick was more what I could hear. And then the the comms from the players of recognising pictures early and then that gave them good defensive moments. But also with Wickein, his growth of how honored he was with the ref, you know, specifically the monster game sticks out of when they make the hooker substitution and straight away. It's has to be permanent and he wasn't the only one who said that. And I think your average person watching the game might take that for granted that every good team does that, but they don't. And I could pick out a moment from each one of the other provinces in each year where they've missed It's a huge opportunity and it goes again. them because they're stuck within their own head and they're not thinking about everything to do at the game and it's something I think playing under you open my mind to was outside of your own role. Okay, how does this team defend? One of their friends and principals. Okay, so that means that there's a way of playing and then if that's not working, what's the other way of potentially breaking this team down? So then at least when we're in the shift and conversations need to be hard, you can have an opinion. It's not just one person who's saying something because they might see it. But that's an area of growth that I've definitely seen and maybe if there's anything on that or specific examples of where you've seen the growth happen in training or lessons learned from that. But I decked the ear test as definitely something that I've noticed specifically from the interpro's onwards. Yeah, I think the interpro's are different. The beauty of the URC is that you've got you've got so many different challenges. You've got to go to Italy and play, you've got to go to Wales and play, you've got to the Scottish teams to play, you've got to go to South Africa and then you've got the interpro's. And obviously when you're an Irish team, when you're doing interpro's as, it's not the same obviously, but Glasgow's would be that have two games against Edinburgh, two games against the talent teams or whatever. For Irish team or for team like Connott, we didn't win one interpro the previous year. So zero from six. If you're going zero from six, you want to get 18 games in a season, then you've got to win a lot of the next games to qualify. So you have to come away, we're winning some of the interpro's for sure and we set off quite poorly. And even in the lense again at the Dexcom, we lost our emotions and we went off script a bit and that whole red to blue, getting back in the blue and being calm and being able to think under pressure. It definitely comes from knowledge and understanding of the game. And I think often people would, like people would probably come into my meetings from the outside and think, well, why is this relevant for a tight-dead prop that you know, sounds like backfield or, you know, or how we do this because actually it's nothing to do with what the tight-dead prop has to do in the role. But I think that's the global intelligence of the group is a huge part to play in the success of the group. And that is, the game can be taught. The game is, you know, people say, oh, the game's the teacher. No, it's not the teacher. You know, you've got to teach the game and teach how you manage games to the players. And when you've got a group like I have who are hungry and open-minded and want to learn, get another intelligence to apply under pressure, then you can give yourself a better chance of winning. And I think, you know, that also games it was a great example. And, you know, we'd always talk about the what-if scenarios as well. Okay, so what if this, what if that? And, you know, this, but then anyone, in that, like, we would always review other games, wouldn't we? You know, we'd always sit there in the six nations and we'd go through, okay, what would we do if we were England in this game here? Like what's gone wrong? Why's it gone wrong? And this year was no different. You know, there was examples, particularly when England were going through that tricky period in the six nations, obviously, well, they didn't beat France, but they were definitely the island game. And I was reviewing those games with our players saying, look at the body language here. Look at the captain. He's only dealing with the referee. No one's speaking behind the post. There's no eye contact. You know, I mean, heads are down. How do we get ourselves back in the moment? How do we get our emotional energy rate? How do we, how do we move on to the next thing? Like, how do we move on and then get the next action, a positive action so we can get ourselves back in the game and we're going to game momentum. How do you, how do you regain momentum when you've lost momentum? You know, simple plays, play to space, get to the edges, get into our multi-phase attack, get moving patterns, a defensive system. So all those things have discussed all the time. And then as a consequence, your IQ of your team begins to grow and then, and then you still got the chances of every game. It doesn't go into you in a win, but yeah. But yeah, so I think the interproves were big for us from positive and a negative part of you. But I think the players capacity to have thought through problems, a lot of it which we didn't prior to that anyway, scenario planning, yellow card, red card. And someone like Ian has the capacity to remain calm and composed and think clearly under pressure and communicate that really well. And he's not the only one to be fair. Like, but he's a great example of it. He's a brilliant leader. Would somebody like you're on for all the stewards? You know, you, I was under the impression actually that when you're at Lensor, you didn't see him as an old half. You can correct me if I'm wrong there. But it was convenient against Johnny at the time, but which is a challenge. I think he probably, he was a bit like Jimmy in that he could play, Jimmy Bryan, that can play everywhere. And his versatility becomes his biggest strength. But ultimately, you get to a point where it does that become the biggest weakness as well. And I think one of the things that struck out to me when I spoke to him was that he needed probably just that ability, just to narrow it down to one to one spot. And I was lucky in that he was open-minded about a different challenge. And Jack Carty was leaving. And Jack and Jack, you know, thought Keirin would be a great person for him. And I think Keirin would be a great person for him. So we could open up the opportunity for him to do that. You know, Lensor, he'd always be competing against, you know, Harry or Sam or whatever. And it's their top players as well, aren't they? It's not like they're not good players. They're brilliant players. And he's still got to compete when he comes to it. Connits, not like Joshua and he's going to wave the white flag of Sean Nocton, you're going to say, there you go, Keirin. But yeah, I think that was the, that was, you know, I think he'll benefit from that. He's still young, isn't he? I know people think maybe he isn't. But in rugby terms, I understand he coaching Johnny when he was 31. And Keirin's maybe 27-28 maybe. And so I think he's got a long way to go. And I think if he goes on the tour, we'll hopefully, we'll, I mean, the reality is we don't get those players back in preseason until after our preseason games are done. So it's going to be mid mid mid mid August when they come back from the tour once I've had a break and everything else. And they're not allowed to play until you are see round three and Europe's round four. So Josh and Sean, etc. They're going to be running the whole of preseason. Keirin's going to be on catch up, but he'll catch up because of the relationship we have really. Do you see him as a potential Ireland 10? I said, like, would you be expecting that he will be further in the frame as being a good dendure for that position with the national team? Yeah, I mean, he has to play well, but I see everyone with the current players as a potential Alan player. You know, that's my job is to try and, is to try and get them to be at such a level and place. So what is the team that Billy Bowen's, you know, has to be in the quave and Sean Jansson has to be in the conversation. Kyle Ford has to be in the conversation as a potential 12, etc, etc, etc. And Keirin's in exactly the same position. Will Connors, if he plays well, should be in the conversation as a Alan player. So yeah, yeah, I do, obviously, but we have to play well as a team and they have to play well as an individual within the team. And if we can compete more consistently, then you give your players a better chance of playing for Alan, which is ultimately you know, one of the objectives for me is to do that, but obviously it's to get Connors to win as well. I actually, those kind of one of the last things I wanted to ask you about Stuart was around that kind of grassroots to green shirts. That's always been a big game for Connors and a big, I guess, thing for them to improve. As you mentioned, their recruitment has been really excellent. It looks great. So good players coming in and that's important. I think Connors fans, the one they're disappointed about is maybe Maddie divine that homegrown guy who came through. They want to see more of those players in the team. How is that work developing? I know you've your hands full, obviously, with senior team, but I can only imagine that that is a big part of the overall picture guys like Sean Walsh who got a taste of it this year that Connors homegrown player getting through to the top level. Yeah, no, I think to be fair to, I mean Eric runs the Academy, Eric Howard and he is a great source of information and inspiration for me because he's passionate for the area, his knowledge of the area. So he is a very good Academy coaching team now, André Brown's doing the 20s. Cully's obviously just leaving. He's going to do the 20s. So that's strong relationship with Cully. Morgan's very good doing Ireland. He's doing Ireland 18s. And then to be fair to Ireland, like there's been support given to each of the four provinces for the pathway. And support can be that financial support using different ways. We've used it on the coaching front to improve the depth and the quality of coaching that we have beneath the under 18 so we can put more investment and time into the players in Connors who play, will be having potential to play at the highest level so they get more time. So Janet Butler who you would know was the following. the back rower, he's for example, he's going to come into the program. Now that's an unbelievable appointment I think, you know, for the kind of time someone of his standing within Connott now in our pathway coaching. So there's a huge amount of investment going in there and time and effort and that time and effort will come through I'm sure. You know, we don't have in Connott the huge numbers of players that other provinces would have. But there is a definite desire to want to create a homegrown talent. It's a numbers game obviously but there's definitely from what I've seen like Fakena Barrett is a good example and he's someone I've got really, you know, high hopes for Sean Walls, he'd mentioned already. Sean's got a younger brother Darra who's going to be very good at second row, back row. So, you know, there are a lot of lads in our pathway who were super excited about and my job is to, with Eric, give them the right opportunity at the right time and give them the belief that they can play. I think one of the probably observations I have coming into Connott is maybe there was slightly reticent to do that to start with as in like, oh, they're not ready, they're not ready and they're not ready. And I'm like, well, don't worry if they're not ready. I'll look after them. I'll put them under pressure. I'm not going to kill them but they're not going to get ready unless they go in. And I think one of the things that worked so well at Lensdor was because we had a lot of games during the Six Nations or preseason games in the International Sourway, these young 18, 19, 20 rules come and then so we're always operating. Let's say we've got 20 players away on Alan Cooper, whatever, or Alan Tour. And we need 35 to train. Those 35 have come from our super academy and our academy, same Connott, you know, comes from our super academy and our academy. And then suddenly these 18 Nationals have been exposed to training with the pros and their growth just goes like through the roof. And then when the Six Nations comes around on November and Ashles and there are those games, then they play in these games and then a Jamie Osborne is on the bench in the URC, then he starts in the URC and then he benches in Europe and then he starts in Europe and then he plays for Alan, you know. And that's the same in Connott. So, so yeah, so that's the that's the art of it really. Building belief, building confidence, creating the window, back in them. And yeah, the role they don't. What was the story of Matti Divine? Stuart, we're big fans of his on the podcast. It was obviously a point of frustration for Connott fans. And you guys obviously consider him an important player. So, why is it that you think? It's a competitive position that Connott, it wasn't like we didn't want him to stay. We obviously wanted him to stay. But he felt there's an opportunity to get more game time up in Ulster. And that was the bottom line. Like at the time, we've got Kellen, we've got Ben, we've got Comrade, we've got a young nine coming through with a lab at Linda, I think something very good. And we've got Matti as well. And at the time, you know, you have to remember a lot of these decisions get made around about November, December, January time. And obviously, as the season goes on and things change and we get more, you know, we get more wins and more opportunities come their way. And maybe I'm not saying he has changes in mind or people would change their minds, but that's when the decisions are made. And we had, we lost Jack Angel to Munster. As a title, you know, which you don't lose any title. Joe Joyce had a decision to make does he stay? Does he go to Gloucester? You know, he's chosen to go to Gloucester and it's tough because obviously when you're seeing good by the end of the season, there's always a regret on both sides. I'm sure. And these are the decisions that you make in your life. Like I made the decision to to go to Rassick, you know, and I think a lot about that decision. That said, there's always windows to come back. You know, you never, I would never say to anyone, you know, if you know a suspect face, like always live on good terms and make, because it's a, it's a small industry, rugby, and it's a small world, really, actually. So you've got to be respectful when you leave and, like look at me as an example, at the time, I think I'll come back to Ireland, probably not within two years, but I have done it. It's been amazing. One thing I'm just, I'm just jumping back to more of the rugby stuff now before we actually go. Sure. One thing I'm curious around is the, you mentioned Red Zone earlier on. Like that was such a big part of the second half of season, just how clinical contact was a team. And I was actually looking at thing and is this sustainable, but it actually did sustain over a period of months. I know you're going to say there's no secret sauce there, but what is the secret sauce? I'd say, I think I mean two coaches dedicated to supporting the forwards and that Red Zone mentality is been huge for us. And the quality of the two coaches, John Muldoon and Kuli Tukke, it's been excellent. So, you know, as we can all, you know, we all have jobs to do within the coaching team. And those two in particular, you know, their job is a combination of more attack, more defence, pick and go, attack penalties, etc. So, you know, I worked at rassing with Jobyter Sileseski, you know, who's the the the four-scourced, the Scrum line and everything else. And when I look back now, I think it's too much warm person personally. And I think that when I've come to Conor and I've seen the quality of John and Kuli, and obviously Kuli's done a big loss because he's obviously going to the other 20s. They deserve the credit. You know, obviously I can, you know, in Rodsey, we could all sort of set the framework and the mindset, but actually it's the close quarter work that you do in training that creates the habits that stick under pressure. So that's Secret Source. That's a Secret Source, I think. And I think, you know, we've now Kuli's leaving. We've got Trevor Woodman coming in and part of my job, and we've got Rodsey leaving and we've got Gerrard Mulland coming in. So, you know, in a high performance, if you're making that high performance model, you wouldn't necessarily change, make progress and make change after year one. They might change some of your players, but it's circumstantial for me, you know, I can't, I think Kuli's, it was almost done before I arrived virtually. And I was certainly, the decision wasn't made, but he clearly knew the role was coming up and it was a great opportunity for him. So, you know, he goes with that best wishes. And then Rod, obviously he's really should, with Jeff Parlin going to Leicester Tigers. I sort of understood that, but obviously one of the challenges for me, I'm looking forward to, is Trevor Woodman coming in to work with John Maldon and Gerrard Mulland coming in to build on what Rod has done. And I've got a big job in three seasons to get us all aligned again so that we have a forming team by this time, preseason comes around. So, yeah, I think that's where that came from and creates them really. I think the other thing JT mentioned just to finish with maybe his trends in the game and sort of, you mentioned the Bordeaux performance in the Champions Cup Final, obviously I made the top 14 playoffs, but, you know, I do think the KBA mindset, the ability to keep the ball alive, to play to space, to reduce the number of rooks in the game is definitely very hard to defend. And I think what Null has done brilliantly, and I'd speak to Null reasonably often, but you obviously know each other well from Leicester and I keep tracks with him and try to entice him back to Conor, it's from Claire, but I didn't work for enough because he's, but he, I think what he's done is brought a little bit of Irish shape and structure and framework to the, to keep the ball alive mindset of the French. And that's what I was trying to do at Rassing, actually. So I've experienced it and, you know, we got there to a point, probably the biggest problem at Rassing wasn't that in my mind. It was probably more the person I had to do it with and the personnel he has to do it with is. Yeah. That is true. On that occasion, I want to just get a little bit deeper on trends of the game. So, so I've seen different teams going about how, like trying to deal with, obviously, you've no, you've no way of blocking someone who's going up to contest your own ball. So, Lancer and a few other teams. So you see the person on the island kind of like a half, and they're almost like tracking in front of the, the opposition player and I was catching it over their shoulder. Where do you see the kick side of the strategy around the kick side, but also the fielding side go from here because it's kind of changed even from when we last talk. Yeah, the contestable kicking game, the challenge in the air, the one-to-one challenge. High position, you players around that drop zone. I think is going to be, is really important. I think people aware that it's not like it's not been thought of this season, everyone's, you see examples where the ball gets tapped down into someone times and ones off either way. So, probably the profile of wingers changes. I'm looking at change engines now, downrines in the 20s. These are 6263 guys, some go in the backfield, 6263. So I do think it's changing the profile of the players that you have. the winning of the breaking ball and the straps and how you position yourself around there. The one where you're winning goes back as opposed to your full back coming forward. I'm personally not sold on that as a strategy, but I think beyond that, how you disrupt modern defenses, most teams want a 13-2 zone defense. How do you beat that? One of the questions. We've got some ideas, we're answering some ideas that work pretty well in the season, which I think we can build on. I think we can build on some different multi-phase, I'm not going to give all the game away by the way. It's all good, it's a subscriber podcast. There's some differences in multi-phase, but also there's something about the quality of your strikes. Scrum strikes in particular, like Glasgow did this twice. We didn't get a huge amount wrong, but they scored on both of them. Or they made line breaks from the first one and took us 70 metres back and the second one they scored. We didn't do a huge amount wrong defensively, it's just unbelievably hard to defend. Why don't we just have a mindset to score from first phase? There's definitely something there. I've lost some ideas that I'll practice in pre-season and see if they work. I think I was going to enjoy that too. Before you go, you've always been great for book recommendations or video clip recommendations. This is just as much for me and the lads as it is for the listeners. But if you have any of the top of your head, maybe please share. Gilbert Anokas book. Very good. Become unstoppable. I definitely put that on the list. I do think Ivan Cleary's book. I can't remember the name of it. It's not available in the UK, so you'd have to get it from Australia. But that's a really good book on his development as a coach to become the parent of Panther said coach. And what he achieved. I really took a lot from his book. There's a new Jim Collins book out called What to Make of a Life. And Jim Collins wrote the book Good to Great. And without spoiling the book for you, basically he talks about your life as being easy rock climber. And he talks about your life as a series of cliff moments. And sometimes you fall off the cliff and that's just life. Like you can't. If you go through life thinking you're going to fall off a cliff, then you sell a mistake. And you know, cliff moments such as losing your job could be losing a loved one. Something traumatic that happens. And then you end up in the fog. And basically the book is about cliff moments, being in the fog and getting out the fog and getting on me life. So it's really profound. Obviously, you know, when I'm talking about it now. But it's actually very true. When I think about losing my job with England, my dad died when we were at Lentster, you know, 2018. And you personally and all of it everyone listening would have their cliff moments and the fog. And how do you get out of it? And you know, if you don't care for you can be stuck in the fog and your whole life can pass you by. And that's when you will avoid you know mean. So that's a good book. I mean, it's. There's a took. That took that from it. Obviously. And you know, I didn't I wouldn't have have hundreds of notes from the book, but actually it's probably something I'd add in there. So yeah, there's there's there's three. Three three good ones. I think I think I've included is not everything can't support everything matters, right? I think that's the name of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If people want to check that out. There's a good you it's on YouTube as well. The pen for punters. And story of there when they won the trouble the what drew bloody. And again, some good YouTube clips there. I take I took and show the players. And I've just some good stuff on the Brisbane lines. I've used it this season. And the NFL team as I said, the Scott Salwood stuff he gave us calling wood. There's something like I was such a chat and to. I was on a leadership group the other day and there's something about decision making under pressure from the aviation world and the medical world. And how. How you make decisions, pressure on how you come and how you should. And what do they call it? Could be the silent. They talked about this one like in on when you're landing an aircraft. It's a common. It's like the silent moment or the silent window. And everyone has to be silent. So everyone can fully concentrate on the task and hand. So it's a bit like, you know, as a coach in your coaching box. And there's two yellow cards. There's a substitution. You're physically turning the title to pull this calf. It's 17 or with three minutes to go. Do we go for the corner or whatever? So it's that. You know, as a coaching team, it was definitely something from that. And there's a YouTube clip about tragedy. Really a guy who whose wife was. She went in for routine operation and she died during the operation. And he was from the aviation world. And he talked about the chaos of he unpicked through the investigation. The chaos within the theater at the time. And how in the medical world they had no checks and balances over what they should do. And the aviation world obviously have those own Jim Gavin would talk very strongly about that. You know, the. I'm just not that while I'm on my high horse. I'd work with Gory Hurler's. I've spent a bit of time with them, which has been brilliant this. This. This season. So they're obviously now in the semi final. So. I'm. I'm following their progress. So that's something teams that leadership group on is very good. And that. David Ancelotti's on there. So Carlo Ancelotti's. Alright. And anyway, we were chatting away in his Kendrick Lynn from Argentina, Ruby and some football managers, the Brackenhoferman managers on it. And anyway, David Ancelotti said, would you mind if I zoom called my dad? I was like, yeah, no problem. So he's not brilliant but quite leadership. And he talks about his career. He's got sat at different places and it's quite reassuring when you've been sat there. You can see I'm going to be successful. And anyway, so I'd zoom call with him about Brazil's lead into the World Cup. From my experience of England in 2015 and what did I learn from him in 2015? So. Anyway, so that was an amazing like random thing that happened. And the bonus was, I managed to get four tickets for Brazil Scotland in Miami, which my son. He was great. He was a great, he accepted. So he's off his mates to Miami. Surely you need to receive those tickets too after the. For problems, probably is me and I are in a stupor. So I could be actually just like pull run, could say sorry done. I'm good with the lunch. What have you been doing with the call we heard loose? I went watch them train and then. We had a session post training about the sort of lessons I'd learned to and what I was trying to do at Connard. A lot of the things we've talked about here actually. And unbelievably receptive group, you know, a lot of. Similar ads from from from go away, obviously West of Ireland. And similar age profile to let some coaching. So the similarities are so. So start to me like when you watch when I watch a hurling game, the chaos and the non stop nature of the game is the control of attention. The sauce moments, the situation of the self. You know, that was a big thing. And we talked. With me, I would talk with me out not so long ago. We were only talking about. Different components of the game like the start and middle of the end or whatever. And we talked about how to start a game fast. Like one of the problems, not problems, but one of the when you look at the metrics. Our poorest quarter, Connard was the third quarter post half time. So we're our strongest quarter was the last quarter. So we'd finished strong, but of the course of the season, I think our points differential might be. We want to say like minus 26 in the third quarter. So obviously one of the big things to me is like half time. What do we do post at the end of half time? How do we come out and you know, substitutions when you make substitutions. So yeah, we talk with me all about things like that and his coaching team. And you know, there's is it. It's a faster flowing game. It's less time for thinking isn't in there. There's no stoppages, not like you're not like you have a scrum and claps is in you. And then we're stands around for a minute and a half. Two minutes like in Hurlin. It's literally nonstop. So. So yeah, so that's been that's been great and talking to him about things like that. One of the things also that came up in our season as well was the penalty differential. So the discipline within a season and how you manage referees. Because one of the problems. still in rugby as a coach is that you can get everything right, you can do all your, you know, one percenters and you've still got a guy in the middle who's making the decisions and you have to hope that they make the right decisions at the right time and sometimes they don't and sometimes they don't and you know it's a lot of grey in rugby, there's a lot of grey in terms of decision making and so yeah we talk we talk about that but the the the penalty differential for us during the course of the season we ended up about path as in like let's say we were awarded 150 pounds and we also conceded 150 pounds so we're about zero at the end of the season which puts us so puts us mid table in the UIC table so some of the teams towards the bottom you know there might be an awarded 150 but conceded 200 so they're minus 50 and that's a lot isn't it that's a lot if you look at the table from a disciplinary part of you stormers at the last time I looked their differential was plus 60 wow okay so like they've been awarded 210 and conceded 150 like that is a lot that is a big big influence on the outcome of games and so that that I do think that like obviously a lot of their work so they need to start thinking when their opponents come from while a lot come from strong you know strong pounties for them so set-piece dominance as a sheet hard to play so their ball and play would be obviously lense to beat them you know so the playing balls in the final but the their ball and play would be one the lowest as in 30 minutes as it be 38 but their penalty eventually is plus 60 and Glasgow's will be very not even remotely close to that there's a plus 25 or something but theirs would come a lot from the multi-phase attack leading you get caught in the back of the tackle leading to an offside leading to a mall or whatever so I'm not sure it's the same in Hurlin but we talk I talked we're good chat about that as well but their things also that are on my mind about you know next season and yeah how to get better and because there's such a big like might as well have 60 more penalties in the game yeah crazy well so yeah I know we've talked all day I'm sure we good we good for now we better let you go to Lancaster thanks a million for for your time and thanks for the chat really enjoyed it yeah okay thanks guys