"Unleashed" (w/ Dr. Orna Guralnik feat. Nico)

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. This ad is sponsored by Veve Healthcare. Everybody who's considering injectable prep, listen up. Not all injectable prep options are the same. You got to talk to your doctor about it and you got to ask the right questions. Is there an option that fits your lifestyle? What about other meds and injection site reactions? These are some questions. Your doctor has the answers. Start the conversation. In the meantime, visit getprepwisdom.com. And now a break from our sponsor, Vital Proteins, the official collagen partner of the U.S. Open, who is upping the excitement at this year's U.S. Open. If a main draw singles match reaches a final set tiebreak beginning in the quarterfinals, fans could win. 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Yes, they've got over 2 million new and used cars nationwide. So whether you're going practical, sporty, or I just need something that fits the dog in the groceries, it's all there. And the search filters are actually elite. You can narrow it down by price, mileage, features, so you're not scrolling forever. It makes finding your exact car feel way less overwhelming. It's basically you're a co-pilot for your next phase. Start your search with cars.com. Where to next? Look, man. Where? Oh, I see. Wow. Oh, my. Bowen, look over there. Wow. Is that? Culture. Yes. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Las Culturistas. Ding dong. Las Culturistas calling. We're sort of doing that in dulcet tones because we have not just one visitor, but two. We're doubly starstruck. I don't even really remember my sort of exclamatory sound. Sound that I made when I saw Nico showing up. Nico's here. Guys, Nico's here. I can't believe this is real. And just like mom, even more striking in person. Of course. A style icon in her own right. A curiosity icon, much like her mother. Snipping around the room. Extremely comfortable with us. We were saying Nico is on the couch with me and Bowen. We do have a pink bed here that Nico could use at any time. However, it feels like she's chosen a spot, and I couldn't be happier. I'm very happy with this spot. She can opt out of it any time she chooses. I'm just letting her know in English in case she can understand. She understands. She gets it. So smart. I will say also, this is giving me comfort, and I don't know if it's giving you comfort extra, because it is incredibly hard not to sit across from our guest, sitting next to someone you're very close to, and not feel like you're in couples therapy, which rings true being that that is the name of the show. It's streaming now. It's our favorite show. Was I the one that showed it to you? You put me on it, and I thank God every day for you. Yeah. I was watching with our friend Matt Whitaker. I was watching the screeners for this season five, and he mutters under his breath. Professional TV writer. Watches everything. He goes, "This is my favorite show on TV." It is. I got Bowen into couples therapy. He took it to London, and then the whole wicked cast was like, "We got to talk about Dr. Warner and what she's capable of." It's huge. I mean, this is really big for us. She, I guess we had some material effect on her life, and we asked her to repeat this anecdote. Yeah. Because we're proud of this. She is our Style Icon Lost Cult Award winner from last year. And it's borne fruit in the real fashion world. Truly. And I'm excited to hear more. But anyway, couples therapy, new season, May 15th. Streaming now. Streaming now. Oh, yes, it's out. Yeah. And we're so thrilled. She asked for a pen and paper. We were like, "Why?" Uh-oh. But then now I'm like, "Well, if it happens, it happens." Sure. But we don't want to put her on the spot. Everyone welcome Dr. Orna Gronick. We are so happy you're here. Thank you for inviting me. And Nico. I'm thrilled. And Nico. Is she, you don't have any anxiety of having her off the leash in this space? We'll talk about that later. Oh. No. But no. Your own anxieties. No, no, no. I have no anxiety of having her off the leash. Other people have anxiety about having her off the leash. Interesting. Any people in production? Well, that was going to be my rant. Oh. Okay. Well, we'll save it. We'll save it. We'll save it. I'm glad you're asking. That was the only rant I could think of. No. That's a great rant. That's a really good rant. Okay. Now, what kinds of garments are you receiving? And can you explain to the class what your new life is? Okay. You guys have changed my life. Because you've declared me. You've declared me a fashion icon. And since then, I've been invited to fashion shows. Let's go. First time ever. Did you go? I went. It was incredible. Yeah. Okay. Went to like Calvin, Chanel. I mean, incredible. Wow. These are the ones that we don't get. No. No. Chanel, the one in the subway. Oh, the subway. Oh, I did go to that one. Oh, that was gorgeous. Yeah. That was a really fun one. My God. That was amazing. Yeah. That was amazing. And I get clothes from all these designers now. Honestly, well, the thanks, we could return right back. Because it is our favorite show. I find it's more compelling every season. And we were actually talking right before you came in and then resumed the conversation with you. Just this season is so compelling. And right off the bat, one of the things that you pulled out of the couple who disagrees politically. Their names are- Jason and- Marjorie. And Marjorie. You just flat out said, "You don't know what each other cares about." Right. And you were saying every time that's always a common threat. Yeah. We're not actually asking. Yeah. They say, I mean, Marjorie and Jason say that they argue all day long about politics. Right. I mean, long marriage. And then you ask each of them, "What does the other one care about? What are their actual opinions?" And they're like, they grow blank. They're like, "Um, not sure." So after that, is this the inflection point for you to say, "You guys need to work on listening?" Yeah. Because you're not listening to each other. Got it. Yeah. You needed that piece first. You needed to confirm that they were arguing all day, but not internalizing anything the other person was saying. Right. And I had it right in front of me. I was like, "Okay. Start the argument. Let's listen." And then I asked each of them, "What did the other one say? And what do you know about their opinions?" And they were like, they drew a blank. Wow. I mean, that's the thing about if you listen to a lot of political arguments, people are just sitting there and building their own argument while the other person is talking. Yes. And was there some hedging around the sort of producing of the show on whether or not to have an example of such a marriage or a relationship on the show? Because I feel like- No. We wanted that. Yeah. We wanted that. We still want that. I mean, obviously, that's a very important topic nowadays. Yes. Yes. And it was really important for us to have this kind of couple. We were actually seeking that kind of couple. Yeah. Because it's true that the couples have to sort of. Basically, I might be wrong on this, but the couples sort of do have to "clear" a certain kind of emotional intelligence or like a threshold quotient. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's hard to get anyone to really sit down and sort of go through that process. But I feel like there's an extra layer of refraction to have two people who disagree politically but are married and who both mutually want this kind of therapy. Yeah. There weren't that many. Yeah. That's true. This is the crazy thing that I observe in couples, especially over the past few years, where there is a political difference and I find that they're like, "Well, we just don't talk about it." Right. And it's just. And I've discovered that again and again. Maybe I'm seeing it through a certain lens because I'm a gay man who over-externalizes and a lot of my friends also are very emotional and externalize a lot. But people who are in relationships, I find it with a lot of straight couples. Who are like, "I just don't talk to my spouse about this." That is so wild to me and I wonder if the therapy is now giving them an occasion to actually talk about it and not just argue about it. Well, the thing is, I mean, people reach a point where they don't talk about it. They start talking about it and they get into like really intense disagreements and people just like generate their own world of facts each in their own bubble. And there's nowhere to go with it. But I don't really understand the business of like not talking about politics because like everything we do has politics like saturated all over our smallest choices. So even couples that don't talk about politics, they're constantly talking about politics. I mean, I always talk about a couple as like a mini political system. They're negotiating differences all the time. Right. And one of them. If one of them is more kind of, let's say, right wing, they're going to go for more domination and power solutions to difference. And someone who's more liberal is going to be more inclined to think about multiple perspectives and they're going to be negotiating those differences between them even if they never talk about, like, Trump. Sure. Right. So they're always talking politics. They are. Yeah. And it was just surprising how quickly they, I mean, I'm sure editing had to do with it, but it was surprising how quickly they both locked into listening because you prompted them to do that. And I think there was, like, almost some immediate progress there where they both realized, oh, I guess we don't know what the other person cares about. Yeah. Although, I mean, I love them. They're a great couple, and the work was incredible with them. I mean, they were just, like, so delightful to work with. I did have kind of a hope that we're going to, I knew in advance that they have, like, political differences. Yeah. And I wanted one of the results of my work with them, that was my own personal selfish wish, for them to align more on politics. Sure. Right. And that did not happen. I mean, a little bit of that happened, but that didn't happen. That did not happen. They got better at talking, but I thought there would be some conversion there. Because do you feel like that's, I mean, it's obviously better than how they came into the care, into the therapy, but it's at least, it's something, but, like, are the politics just going to encroach on whatever, like, progress they've made? I don't know. I guess that's because you just, there is, it's sort of, clinically the best thing and sort of, on a production level, the best thing for you to not really keep in touch with them after it's done, right? We, I mean, I see, just before, I'm going to see all of the couples, we're about to sit down with them just before it airs. Right. And just prepare them for what's coming. So I'm going to see them. Yes. Individual, like, just couple to couple? As a couple, yeah. Yeah. I do feel like there is this. And with some couples, I do keep in touch a little bit. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Certain couples, I feel like, like, are not received well. By the audience? By the audience. And. What are you thinking? I'm thinking, I can name examples, but maybe that's, I feel like, oh, first season, what's, what's this? Oh, everyone liked to attack Mao. Yeah. Yeah, Mao. And poor Mao, like. I know. It's just a learning experience for us. Sure. And, like, what we're, because I feel like the show is very preserved from the first. It's been so consistent, the choices and just stylistically and, and, and the way that the, the stories are told or it has been so consistent. But I feel like with someone like Mao as a first example of like, oh, the audience has strong feelings about these dynamics and these people, like what were the learnings? Well, one thing to say before even the learnings is that, um, I think one of the good things about the show that we've heard repeatedly every season is. Is that seasons begin and people love to create a certain kind of scapegoat. They love to like hate on someone and decide who's bad and who are they siding with. And by the end of the season, they're like, oh, actually I developed empathy for everyone. So that's like actually an incredible journey for the audience. That that's sort of what we're after. Um, I think it didn't go that well, the first season with Mao for a few different reasons. I think first of all, the editing sort of the way he was portrayed. I think we didn't get into certain, we didn't have them for long enough. They didn't stay for the whole, um, length of the treatment left at some point. So we didn't have enough. And I think what we focused on in terms of what was shown to the audience, didn't show enough of the subtleties of who he is. Um, and I think we learned from that. I remember thinking that I actually remember thinking, watching it and being like, he is, I understand him as being unappealing because of his stubbornness in this situation. But I was like, there's also something funny and attractive about him. He makes so much sense in his own world. Yeah. He just speaks deeply from his own world. Yeah. And you have to be willing to go into his world for Mao to make sense. Of course. And ultimately couples therapy is this dialectic thing. We're too. Opposing things build into something greater than the sum of like the two things. Right. Is, and this is why this is your specialty because one-on-one therapy is. No, I do plenty of one-on-one. I'm an analyst. You're an analyst, but, but that is the special thing about couples therapy that. Totally. And, and you, I mean, and do you find yourself having to tell a lot of people, I also do one-on-one or yes. Right. And so. But you, that's exactly the difference between couples working. And it is what I love about couples work that you have to like hold multiple perspectives at the same time. Well, it's a perfect show for me to put my phone down. You know how there's like Netflix has shows where it's like they, they understand that the audience is on their phones. Yeah. But I feel like couples therapy is the rare show where it's like you're, you have to pay attention. Like it's like, it's, it, it's like, it's as if there were subtitles that you had to read, but there aren't. You can turn them on, but you know, you have to pay attention. You have to lock into this the way that like. You are in the way that the couples are. Cause I feel like they are, they've opted in just as much. Yeah. What is, was your experience when someone approached you about bringing therapy to television? Because I always wonder what that thought process. Yeah. Like, like what the hell, not only just put for the people having therapy, like going through it, but also you facilitating it, like the checkpoints you must've had to go through that. Not only every person, but every, you know, professional in that is in your field is going to also have eyes on it. Um, well, when I talked with Josh and Elise, the, the creators of the show, when I talked with them originally, I wasn't thinking of participating as a therapist. I was just listening to their ideas and like, I thought I want to consult to them. I have a, like a background in film and I thought, I just want to make sure they don't make another sleazy show. About like a narcissistic therapist. Right. Um, and we started talking and they, I mean, they're amazing people there. I just love talking to them. And it was clear that they have like a real, like dignified idea of what they want the show to look like. They really want it to be about real therapy in depth, take the time. Um, and then they started convincing me, like, why don't you try? And first I was like, that's ridiculous. Like, I don't know. I don't know how to be in front of a camera. I'm like, uh, they were like, yeah, you do. No, I didn't really. Well, they saw it. I guess they did. But they're also very, they're, they're documentary filmmakers. They're like, that's not the point. Yeah. But what was your film background that you were saying? I studied film. So then, so then you, you, you just understand how the sausage gets. Yeah. And I'm interested in, in the medium of film. Yeah. I think it's a very powerful medium. I mean, especially in this culture, it's like, you can do a lot with good film. Um, yeah. Um, and with good docs. So, yeah, but then they put the cameras in the room and I was like, oh, actually we do what we do even when there's a camera there. And even if I'm nervous, I, I know how to do this and it doesn't really make a big difference. And then you put someone in front of me and we start talking about their issues and they're also getting absorbed in it. And I guess we can do it. It made me excited to be in therapy. Cool. It really did. I think it does. It does that for a lot of people. Originally, I wonder if this is one of the things that you were tipping to when you were saying like the narcissistic therapist, therapist, but the show in treatment, um, does that what you mean? Like the sort of sensationalized, it was sensationalized, but that wasn't the worst. I mean, there are plenty of shows that are like, that portray therapists as either like falling asleep on their patients or wanting to sleep with their patients, sleeping with their patients or just absorbed in their own shit. I mean, it's like people love to project like the. Worst nightmare on their therapist. And of course they're bad therapists, but most people are decent. They actually want to listen to their patients and they go into the profession, not because they're narcissists, plenty of other professions, but there's a bias towards the narcissist because it's the, because the medium is film or television or whatever. And it's, it's a spotlight. I think people, there's so much, you know, the word transference. There's so much projection onto therapists of everything, like all the ways in which your parents have failed you or what you want from the caretaker and, and all the fear of how they're going to fail you again. And that's what TV kind of grabs onto, or that's what film grabs onto those fears. That's interesting because I think the way you work around that is by talking to Virginia, Dr. Virginia Goldner, and you talk to the peer group, which by the way, my old writing, the essay teacher, Noir Alcideer. Oh, and she wrote an. Amazing book on laughter, on the difference between non-Duchenne laughter and Duchenne laughter. You want to know the difference? Animal joy. Animal joy. Yeah. Amazing book. It's actually like for comedy. I think comedy people should read this book. I'm like, I don't, I'm surprised that it's not like circulated more among comedians, but, um, uh, it's, that's the whole thing about, uh, non-Duchenne laughter, which is voluntary laughter. Like, haha, like you're, you're, you're laughing as a way to like move the conversation along. Just, just, it's, it's, it's, it's real. It's guy, it's like, it's the guide rails, um, guardrails for a conversation to just move along a little joke about the weather whatever Duchenne laughter is open mouth involuntary corpsing laughter something's gone terribly wrong ha ha ha like nervous laughter or it's like joyful like oh my god like a break on SNL like I was even I was like oh like a break on SNL is actually just Duchenne laughter but Noir Alcideer what a small world and I reached out to her I was like so all the all like the the grad students basically at NYU or like the adjuncts whatever had to and they hated this I'm sure but they had to teach all the NYU freshmen across all the schools had to take a one semester long class called writing the essay just writing an expository essay about your life and she core curriculum core curriculum stuff so like the Tisch kids in the acting school in the theater school had to take it the chemistry majors had to take it the business majors it was just the one core class that everyone had to take and she was my professor and I wrote a I don't even know what the fuck I wrote but she read it and she gave me a mediocre grade which I deserved ha ha ha okay but she's amazing but I reached out to her I was like oh my god it's so cool you're so she's I think she's she's awesome but that's a great group what do you what differences are you getting from each group or from the group and Dr. Goldner um Virginia is my original mentor I mean that's why I brought her on to the show that's amazing she really taught me the whole couples therapy thing and I guess we get kind of deeper into like clinical nuances and explaining what's going on in the treatment with a peer group they're all my friends I mean they're really my colleagues they're not like chosen for the show they're really the people that I talk to about patients and first of all they're really interesting they have very different perspectives on the work each of them and sitting with them I feel like they're they're like helping me carry the load of doing this work I mean it's an intense thing to do I mean it's an intense thing to be an analyst to be a therapist but to be doing it for TV mm-hmm is like it's a lot of responsibility like big time and they're kind of carrying the emotional responsibility with me they're like my buddies and they're thinking with me and it's it's very helpful yeah and are they watching the footage or the dailies yeah they watch not all of it but they watch kind of select sure yeah because this season you talked to an autism and neurodivergence expert and the way she was commenting on Clinton I was like oh she must be she must be privy to the footage yes to like understand yeah his kind yeah and so I was always curious about it but it didn't really click for me until this season like five seasons in where I was like oh I guess these other people are like in on the sessions too or at least they get to watch they get edits they get edits I see yeah we choose kind of what would be important to talk about what I'm struggling with or yeah I mean the thing about Clinton yeah he's neurodivergent and you know he does things like he's packaged in a slightly different way but the emotions that he puts out there make sense right very much so they're very direct and he explains himself well he's very verbal they're just very raw yeah but it's the same material that we're made of right he's just you know packaged a little differently I mean it was not hard I actually really loved working with them I like working with all the people that stay but it would be different in a relationship I think right yes as a therapist you know you have the the luxury of like coming in spending some hours working on and then you go home and you're like dealing with your own people yeah I think in a relationship it's different when someone is really different from you or why are different I mean generally difference is difficult but when people are kind of structurally different it's hard well I don't know if you've gotten to this part but there's a moment where Shay kind of tells you like you know I'm trying to like you know he's his diagnosis is relatively recent and he's letting all of this define everything about him right or something along those lines and then he says it of course it defines everything about me your transness defines everything about you yeah and it kind of immediately clarified things for I think both of them yeah and maybe for you where Shay kind of was she was just kind of like I think she took that in and she understood she took that in but as far as I remember I remember that session as far as I remember I don't know if it was in the edits but she then said to him actually no longer it used to but no longer I don't think that did I don't think I remember that yeah maybe it wasn't in there but she she did understand but she was like you know I've been trans long enough that that is not no longer kind of the defining sure feature for me and I think and I think and you notice that right away where you're like where you tell Virginia like oh the recency of the diagnosis is like kind of yeah that has that has a lot of texture here yeah I think like what you're saying is there's there's like a a misalignment or they're just I guess he's not being understood in the way that he wants to be or she is maybe ahead of him in terms of personal development in a way in all these areas where she's making money for the two of them and she's lived independently for a long time yeah and all these things and like I just think there are about a million different things in these people's lives across all your couples where you have to find your way into them even though you don't really have something first hand to splotch onto right and now a vital break from our sponsor Vital Proteins you know the blue tub you've probably seen everywhere that's Vital Proteins collagen peptides now why use them because they're the experts 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Administration this product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease I thought you said it was proven by science never said that I just said it was good look your space should feel like you and if it doesn't yet it's not a taste problem it's a budget problem before Wayfair my outdoor space was just not it then my Wayfair delivery arrived I got the Brantley 5 person patio conversation set with cushions and now my outdoor space is ready for hosting this summer plus Wayfair handled the delivery and assembly so I didn't have to lift a finger if you're putting off a refresh because of price or not knowing where to start stop waiting you can shop with Wayfair Verified their specialist hand vet items for quality and assembly time so you know you're getting the good stuff ready to upgrade your home for way less head to wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less that's w-a-y-f-a-i-r dot com Wayfair every style every home Wayfair every style every home this ad is sponsored by Veve Healthcare time for some prep wisdom but first some common sense people everyone is different every one yes even you yes even your situationship especially your situationship and just like people injectable prep options not all the same that's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask so here's some prep wisdom did you know there's more to consider about long acting injectable prep options and how often you get it also why you want to take it matters your lifestyle matters your routine your chaos level your I might forget my own birthday energy all of it counts basically talk to your doctor have the conversation ask the questions be a little nosy about your own health it's allowed encouraged even okay did you write all that down no don't worry just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor that's getprepwisdom.com this message is brought to you by apple card ah the summer road trip it's a tradition as old as time with some stops meals and even road trip songs passed down through the generations but even some traditions can use a little updating that's why there's apple card apple card users earn daily cash back on everyday purchases you can even earn 2% daily cash back when you use apple card with apple pay so every stop for fuel late night snack and even a set of ear plugs is now an opportunity to earn daily cash back making apple card a road trip must have apply for apple card now and use in minutes with apple pay subject to credit approval apple card is issued by goldman sachs bank usa salt lake city branch terms and more at applecard.com hey bowen is it just me or does it feel like nothing is actually what it says it is anymore yeah like Like when you order chicken fingers, you don't get fingers. You get mystery nuggets. Well, except Hotels.com. I was going to say Hotels.com because they do hotels. Refreshing. And when booked as a member, rewards are earned every stay. Not points that disappear. Rewards that work like cash and can actually be used. So the name checks out and the perks do too. Yep. Members can get up to 20% off tons of hotels with no blackout dates. Just works with real travel. Okay. That tracks. Hotels.com. It's all in the name. As I said earlier, when I said about the political system, couples are all about figuring out how to deal with someone who's other than you. So it's a little more extreme with Shea and Clinton, but it's just a little more extreme. Yeah. I think when you get into a relationship too, you never get into, or I've been surprised every time. I'm on my fourth boyfriend and they're all really different. If you line them all up and said, what do you have in common? And it was that they dated the same person, your mind would be blown. Can I ask you, and are you different in each relationship? That's a really interesting question. I think I provide, I try to, you know, I actually, this is something I haven't really admitted out loud, but sometimes I find myself giving the same, wanting to give them the same like nicknames. I gave another one and I go, don't do that. Don't do that. Because I'm realizing that's me. Right. And the way I want to, I don't want to express myself, but then I'm just like on an Island by myself there for no reason. Right. And so, but, but that was just like a really interesting thing. And I think like the thing about all four of them is all their complexes were so different and you never would have expected I'm going to be in a relationship with someone that is, that is dealing with this kind of thing. You just don't think when you're getting into something with someone or you're falling in love with someone. Yeah. You're going to meet that thing, but that's, that's what's going to show up like tie into it. Yeah. I think one of the things I said about myself forever was like, I'm never going to be on like a distance relationship and now I am. And I was like, and it's like just funny the things that you like the, the places you find yourself and the challenges that you have. And a lot of the things that I still, I find myself dealing with is like, how exactly did I get here? Then you can deal with what it is. Yeah. You know, I'm tempted to ask you, you can ask me questions. You can ask me questions. Did you like with, let's say with these four people. Yeah. Did you somehow unconsciously kind of know something about them, which is why you picked what you then found out later on? So this is something funny. Every time I saw a picture of each one of them, I said, that's my boyfriend. I said, that's my boyfriend. Oh. And I've been, I was right every single time. I don't know if that means that I was like manifesting it or that I actually, I didn't know that you saw something that you needed and that something will show up. You spend enough time with a person. Then you realize what you saw in that picture. Yeah. You saw something. Yeah. I showed up a lot later. Yeah. There's something weird. It's like, it's like, I'll see the photo. It's happened to me four times in my life. I see the photo of the person and I'm like, that's my boyfriend. I'm not sure how, but it is. And every single time it's, it's proven to be true. And you can, you can probably look back if you really looked at what happened in the relationship. You can look back and say, that's what I saw in this picture. I saw that quality. That's really interesting, but they're different strains or different qualities. Yeah. Cause you're changing and you're needing different things. Yeah. It's just, it's just interesting. It's just like, it's one of those things. And I do think a common thing about each one of them is in each picture. They were each one of them was a performing a little bit. You know what I mean? And maybe I recognize that about it. Yeah. Like one of our best friends, Jared was, we, we dated a long time ago and he does this thing in pictures where he just looks a little tough, but he's like such a soft, cuddly, gooey guy who just wants to talk about like Olivia Rodrigo and, but, but in his pictures it's, but you picked up on that kind of, yeah, I think I saw humor in it, you know, was that what, was that what made you say that's my boyfriend though? Like, what was the thing about, for sure? I think I thought he was super hot. And I thought like super hot is everyone how things appear to us, but we don't understand why. Like somebody will show me someone who's super hot to them and I'm like, what? But to them because it's, it's tickling something that matters to them. Yeah. It's really interesting. Do you find that? I, I've heard of this. I, I've, I've known about this thread, uh, where, where, where he's, he's looked at a picture and he's gone. That's my boyfriend. And I have other friends who, who also kind of have that same knee jerk thing where they're like, well, that's my husband. And then they will end up getting married. Yeah. And what's your theory about that? I don't really have one except. Isn't that interesting? But I don't, I don't know the theory that's the theory is that it's interesting that they're picking up on something and you see a lot, I mean, you know, as comedians that you can express so much in like the tiniest gesture of the face and the way the body moves. And like, you've expressed like a whole world in that the people are not conscious of, but it goes, it conveys information. What about me? When I completely misread the signals? Almost always say more. I mean, Oh my God, it's so cool to hear you say that to me. Um, now where are you? Now, where are you listening to him? No, I, I just, whatever. I just, I feel like I cast a wide net and then I get a couple of crabs, so to speak. Um, meaning you're not looking. Oh no, no, no. I feel like, gosh, meaning you're not actually looking. Oh, I think that's more dead on. You're not paying attention. Sure. Sure. So Matt's thing with me is always, well, maybe it's that guys are afraid to approach you or something. And I'm like, and then I, what I've internalized with like parental voices and just the voices in my head that are just all the way back from childhood. I'm so sorry to make you do this. Go ahead. Okay. It's just that it's like, it's like, Oh, well like the, the, the worthy and the worthiness, my own sense of worth is not like aligning with the possibility that this could be. Yeah. That this is possible at all. Right. So, so may I translate, please. So you're saying that whatever noise you're getting from the inside is putting a filter and you don't actually see who's in front of you. Or that I immediately, uh, write it off. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I saw a lot of noise coming from the inside. From the inside and it's like getting in the way of you seeing what's going on. Absolutely. Just so many super constructed frequencies kind of amplifying each other. Um, I see you in my head as a turtle who doesn't know your shell has some spikes. Sometimes I think that he doesn't realize when he's pushing, when, when he's being, um, I think what's drawing, I think you're with you withdraw when you get, maybe, maybe a little nervous and I think that what you're picking up on is like people are intimidated by me as I actually think, actually think they're not, but you're just you're, you react a little bit more strongly than I think you realize. Okay. That, that's my read on it as his best friend of 15 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Has he ever said that to you before? Yeah. Uh, he, I don't think he's, I don't think he's made the turtle of comparison, but it makes, it's a great turtle thing came to me just now. Yeah, very good. I was picturing one of those Mario turtles, like where they have, you know, the ones you don't want to be around that fly down the and they have the spikes on their shells like a Bowser type really or not. Yeah. You know, a Bowser type, a Bowser type, Bowen is a Bowser time about, but not really. I'm not like that. He ain't roaring. What do you got jokes though? What do you think is the most, what do you think is the healthiest relationship in pop culture? Mario and peach. No, but peaches always know what's the healthiest relationship in pop culture. Oh, but you know, you, you, you even told us, no, no, you're no, I'm so sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, we're moving. We're moving past because Dr. Ordon even told us, I know nothing about pop culture. Why am I putting you on the spot and making you, I'm so sorry. When you are the culture, you don't need to know it style. I kind of say that from now on, I am the culture. I don't know anything. That's a good line. When you're strolling down park slope, you're like, listen, I am the culture park slopes. Okay. Nobody challenges me. They're all doing their own thing. Everyone's in pajamas. We do want to ask you though, um, the central question, the central question of our show. And yes, you know, we usually do have people in the entertainment world and not, obviously you are, but you know, this is an interesting thing to ask you, Dr. Orno, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you defining culture, whether it be atmospheric or pop cultural that you think moved you in a U direction. Okay. I did think about it, but I'm a little worried that it's going to be out of touch with what's normally happening here or like sound. so what i thought were two things one was um david lynch's twin peaks well yeah sure that was like when that show came out i was like okay i belong to this world wow what about it the way it was unsettling unsettling going for the weird not afraid to go for like the unconscious material and go really far into it and manifest it visually it was just like oh i relate to this can you believe that was on abc can you believe that was on network just like a network television show that would it would never stand a chance in hell now right right but that was an amazing moment yeah just real emotional texture and terrain and stuff that's not easy to and a lot about like madness about the madness of like the psyche like all the edges of the psyche was this before you wanted to go into therapy yes because i've already been in therapy by then i've already explored the edges yeah wow yeah that's why it appealed to you that's why it appealed to you was there another answer the other one was um pina bausch has this piece called cafe muller i don't know if you've ever seen it i don't think so it's it's an incredible dance piece where and you know it's dance theater and it's a dance piece where you and it's couples it's all couples but it's just i mean highly recommended it's one of the most moving and intense and beautiful pieces that captures something incredible about humanity and about relationships and both the appeal and the impossibility of relationships right it's a really incredible piece and which directly links to what i do yeah yeah and yeah i love when the when the answer is clearly a threat okay you know like it's and i i actually enjoy it more when it's something that i have not seen okay because i'm learning something what is it about the relationships on display they're just like they're they're very emotional they're very emotional all her work is very emotional but it's also funny it's always witty um and there's a lot of meta in it uh in all of her dance pieces like it's it's very emotional it's very emotional both like really sensual and and very now but also intellectual um but she plays a lot with gender in those pieces um men women men men women women and and power structures and dependency and independence like people kind of jump on each other hold on to each other push each other away there's a lot of longing and mourning and aggression and it's like all the things that make us humans it's and beautiful yeah do you get any sort of synesthetic isn't the right word but as you are in treatment with people i feel like you are maybe you are like seeing something or sensing something that like is kind of channeling in through something that is not purely intellectual although of course it is like is there any description you have on that um i think it would be i wonder if you guys as as actors and comedians if you talk about this but you know people convey like a huge amount of information beyond the words they use sometimes it's aligned with the words they use but often it's like of a different nature sometimes it's even opposite of what they're saying but you know like i'm moving my hands like my eyes like like the body you feel it when you're sitting with people all of this information is transpiring between us and a lot of it is very unconscious that's why i said like years later you can look at the picture and then you realize oh this information was there yeah yeah but it takes us a long time to understand it in words and in our in our conscious mind but as an analyst you're you're trained to be like like an antenna that listens to all of it so like when i'm sitting with patients it's like i'm like an antenna that receives a lot of information and i've learned over the years to translate that into material that i can think of um i don't know was that an answer yes absolutely because even your body language in this in those sessions is active yes i move i move my face i move my hands i move in my chair a lot i'm i'm in my favorite part of the show is the micro express that that it picks up yeah i mean that's my i think when the camera finds the partner who's receiving the information and you can see them either working it out or disagreeing or whatever it is and then obviously it without fail picks up with you where are you you know what i mean and i think that's my favorite thing about the show and it is you know it is a skill to be sitting and receiving what someone is saying while also tracking stuff yeah what what the other person is going through which is really one of the most important things about what is being said yeah and just the cameras being hidden the way they are or placed the way they are is yeah i can tell you that sometimes there are sessions where the dp or someone who's been looking through one of the cameras tells me something about someone's facial expression that i didn't see ah wow wow yeah would you call it verite like because documentary isn't totally accurate and i but i think the appeal of the show for so many people the reason why it's it's a broad inviting appealing show is because it scratches the sort of voyeuristic reality show itch that everyone kind of has like their base not everyone but like i certainly do and yet it feels like it's it's verite it's it is the truth it's verite because no one is influencing anything other than me trying to help people get better but no one's telling us do this do that or make it more this or have the treatment end well it's it's the cameras are just there and the editors are just waiting for the footage to just tell the story as it is sure and are the lights on the sound stage mimicking what the daylight situation is outside okay yes because i'm like oh it looks so looks yes it's yeah i'm in such a world right now after what you said i have to tell you i'm really thinking about it like i was thinking about because it happened a fifth time with and it's someone with a picture yes so so this is years and years and years ago i just got to nyu and we have a very close friend who remains are one of our best friends to this very day his name is dave and i saw him in a picture and he was from rhode island i'm from long island and we hadn't met and it was his parents who sort of look like my parents and his sister who was exactly three years younger than him and him and we dressed similarly and i could tell we were from a from a similar like culture of upbringing and i thought in my mind when i saw that picture i was like i have to date that boy wow i i have to i have to and i think what i really needed at the time was someone who was like me yeah you needed some twinning i needed someone who was like you're like me and you're gonna be okay yeah you know what i mean yeah and i think my first boyfriend henry i was 25 he's so sweet and he was coming across in the picture as very cuddly and sweet and that's i knew i was due for a first relationship and he was the one for that yeah i had a an ex that messed me up and i think what i saw in the picture was like that guy's gonna shit out of me you know what i mean you did and you know what i mean and i think it's it's i'm just working it out now it's like that thing it has to be something beyond i'm clairvoyant and i see a picture and i know this i know this thing it's your body telling you like there that's the thread we need to follow like and it's a visual i'm really happy i can finally find that yeah because now i know it's like you know you have a reaction to something it's like telling you something else it's it's to fulfill a psychological need at the time right yeah and you pick up on the cue without knowing our mind our conscious mind is so behind everything else that's happening yeah all your conscious mind knows to do is to obsess yeah or to say hot yeah hot or like you know like you know 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yourself slow down and enjoy some pure leaf so you can reset and keep performing at your best pure leaf is available in a variety of flavors including classic sweetened and unsweetened as well as new zero sugar sweet tea and the fan favorite raspberry bring yourself back with purely a real brood naturally caffeinated iced tea to help you take on what's next time for a tea break time for a purely I really wonder what you think have you always worked with same-sex couples yeah so I wonder what you think about just you know as gay men who are you know in different stages of dating and this obviously is a big topic on this podcast I wonder what you've seen change or not change about. same-sex relationships since you started practicing or working with couples to now as the world has changed so much about the way that we're accepted I can offer up the prevalence of open relationship yeah I'm on yeah yeah being more being being not only among gay men of course open relationships in general in general I mean that's one of the gifts that keeps giving no the gay men offer society oh sure sure I thought you were gonna say it's a gift that you're giving to keep on giving for you no the idea of it yes yeah the idea of it has been I think excellent I mean opening up all these like barriers but but going back going back to that interesting question there are some I mean I've been working for a long time I'm old and there are some obvious things which is on in my career gay men would come and there would be so much so much palpable internalized homophobia it was like it was like thick and it's so much lighter now it's not gone no not gone but so much lighter now and there's so much more language around it and and and just people have the capacity to think about it yeah rather than for homophobia to kind of clutch them without them understanding what's destroying them yeah that you can do it to yourself yes yes of course yeah I may be back a couple of decades ago even like there was just something death drive related to the fact that like you know like that like your your sort of bill of health was so commodified or was a thing that like preferred to a conferred status on people that was completely constructed you know what I mean just in terms of in like a pre-prep society when like yeah you're talking about the AIDS yes yes I know and and that period of time that was like insane like how much like homophobia got like wrapped into all these other death drive it was that was horrible not to mention that there were all these deaths that people were dealing with I mean that that was like yeah yeah it's a very very complicated time period anyway so that's on the grand scale of things of how things have changed you know nowadays there are other big things that are happening that are affecting not only gay couples but you know the sense of like foreshortened future that there's there's less of where is this world going climate you know AI and which has an impact on relationships so I mean I'm going to make a generalization that I don't know if it's true it's just what I see in my practice it's not like a real study but it almost had like an inverse effect on gay relationships versus straight relationships like straight people are less in a hurry to get into relationships they kind of don't see a future hmm and gay this is vast generalization gay people are more okay with settling into relationships and less kind of sure anxiously bopping around I don't know how to exactly theorize about that we said to a friend on the podcast recently this is the first time maybe in like human history where we are more mourning the future in advance yes well put and so like is that maybe part of it where gay couples feel why not fulfill the psychological need for them culturally or whatever individually where it's like well this thing that like I was told was never available to me let me try to make that happen as whatever quickly or whatever more and as fulfilling of a way as possible yeah and straight people are kind of like well what's what's the point I'm supposed to be doing this but the promise is gone they're seeing examples of their friends with children and haven't and seeing how difficult it is to raise them and and how do you imagine a future for them uh-huh yeah I think it's I think maybe that's something I don't know yeah but I that that that I don't find that to be a generalization that actually feels you resonate with that definitely I think so I've definitely thought more often lately just the general malaise let yeah yeah like even tonight our friends are like we're gonna go to jockstrap night at the Eagle and I was like you of course love the Eagle I'm sure as I'm sure you got yeah come with us yeah please there'd be a too huge of a hit but I can't think of anything I'd want to do less honestly and I do wonder if that's just me getting older I feel like I already did it but I feel like in a world where it's this idea of mourning the future yeah I've already done a lot of the frivolous careless stuff you know there's this song it's called if the world was ending and it talks about like the lyric is if the world was ending you'd come over right just asking one person like I just want to check in with you like that if the world was gonna end and we all knew it and we had an hour to get to someone you would do that right you know what I mean like it's this idea that yeah and I think the world is ending can we finally just be together right yeah if it was you know and of course the song is written because this idea is out there in the ether and I just feel like I've done all this I know what that feels like I don't really know what it feels like to be like secure you know right this idea like I've always fought with this idea of monogamy because I feel like I'm talking as a version of my past self you know what I mean that wouldn't be able or wouldn't want to not it's this thing I have in my head about it not meaning I had freedom or something or why should it be cheating if you know if this happens it's like yeah but nowadays it's like I don't know if it's my general energy for all of that because it does take a lot of work or it's something else but the I can wrap my head around the concept of it now yeah and I could have been just railing against monogamy as a concept because that was the heterosexual concept and therefore I didn't like it but but it's but that's changed I think it's interesting you say that because I see that in myself yeah and maybe it's that idea of mourning the future okay if we're mourning the future maybe I should look at things a different way mm-hmm if we're mourning you know yeah if it was a thing that was not available to us growing up in the, in the sense that like we were watching our straight friends couple up and do the things like in middle school and high school and like just developmentally sort of like grow with the time and the age that they were or something like that. We gave that up a long time ago. We never had it. I don't know if gave it up, never had it, never allowed to have it. Exactly. Um, so I, I went through conversion therapy. Yeah. And I, I feel like I'm finally on the other side of it. It'll always come back. Are you okay to say something? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, it was total quackery. Eight weeks. This guy trying like sort of, um, uh, like drip feeding it to me where the first four sessions were like talk therapy, traditional, like just nothing, no sort of dogmatic agenda to it at all. Grooming you. Huh? Grooming you. Grooming me. Oh, how ironic. So, uh, and then the back half was, um, okay, let's walk through, talk me through a moment where you felt attracted to a man. And where were you? How were you feeling? It was like, how are you feeling in your body? What was your posture? You were hunched over. Well, that must mean that you were feeling, were you in pain? You must've been in pain. And then, and so, and so, yeah. So let's just start associating your, your, your same sex attraction with moments where you were in distress. Oh my God. And that was what was kind of, um, it's so early on internalized for me. Wow. And it's like, yeah. Using CBT. Yes. It was full CBT, but like in a, it's like mind manipulation. Wow. And it's violence. So this, yeah. Total violence. Yeah. And I should tell you the second to last session, uh, did you know that something bad is being done to you? Um, no, I think that was, that was the goal. The first four sessions, the grooming, the grooming. So the ultimatum was, uh, for my parents, they find a long story short, they find out I'm gay. I, my college acceptances are coming in my sister, whatever. So the ultimatum is either you stay in state in Colorado and go to school here and live with us, or you can go to New York and live with your sister. Um, if you go through this conversion therapy, the irony was that my sister went to NYU, the gayest undergrad in the world. Awesome. They created one of them. One of the most publicly gay people in America. Awesome. And I'm so happy they did. Oh my God. So I acquiesced and I was coming home to my parents, like sobbing at the dinner table every single night. And I was like, I have to make, as a child of immigrants, I'm like, I have to make this right. I've like, this is, this is the biggest, this is a wound upon the family that I, that is, it's on me to heal. So I go along with this and, uh, the second to last session, you know, we're fine. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going through, I'm, I'm like giving it a go. I'm like, okay, my identity is malleable. Sure. I'm growing like neuroplasticity, whatever. Um, my dad goes, can you give us referrals for people in New York who do this? And he's like, sure. I will come up with the list for the last session. I go home next week is the last session I go in. He wants to reflect, sort of put a cap on the whole thing. He's like, how, so let's just reflect on what this isn't it. And then we talk about it and then he goes, I want to share with you an anecdote about one of my former patients, his former patient, mine was driving along the highway in California and his car starts to break down and he has to get off in San Bernardino, not somewhere you want to be. He gets off at San Bernardino and he stops by at Denny's. It's late at night. He goes to Denny's, he sits down, the waiter comes over to him. He has a glint in his eye, pours him coffee. There was a connection and I go, am I going to, am I going to really have sex with this waiter? He switches into the first person and then he catches himself. - Oh my God. - And he goes, I mean, my patient was saying, and I caught him in the lie. The blood leaves his face. Everything about the last eight weeks was completely destroyed. - Clear to you. It was completely clear to you that this is a charade. - Yes. - Wow. - He rushes to finish the session. I leave kind of shell shocked, like, okay, yeah, like this is a lie and the diplomas on his wall are all fake or they're all just, they're just shams. - They don't matter. Even if he earned them, they don't matter in this moment. - And so then he brings me out to the waiting room where my dad sits and he's like, that was a great last session. And these are the names. I could only find one name of someone who does this in New York. And he's not even in New York. He is in New Jersey. And then my dad goes, well, you can take the train out to Jersey every week, right? And I was like, yeah, I definitely I'll take the New Jersey transit to see this therapist once a week while I'm in college. I knew in that moment, I think even my dad knew this is not going to continue, never happening. - Yeah. - And that was like just the sort of unceremonious, hilarious in a way and to that whole saga. - Wow. - Yeah. But I'm still kind of like convalescing from this. - Of course. - Yeah. - Did you see Matthew and Gianni? - Yeah. Yes. And it's just, it's, it's, it's so, it's so intense. - Yeah. - And I keep writing it off and people keep wanting to talk about it. And sometimes I'm cagey about it and sometimes I'm, but I'm just like, and I think people have this sense that I'm a reserved person who like shuts down, dissociates and disconnected from things. And I'm like, well, yeah, I guess. - This happened to me. And I have to be protective. - There is like a, when it gets, I hear you saying like, sometimes it's, it depends who wants to talk about it because there is this sensationalizing that happens in the media about conversion therapy. Like, oh, can you believe it? What a survivor. And it's like, yes, this is true. But like when it's in print or something, and when it's for someone else, like it's hard because that is your real experience. And it's very hard to walk through that. - And I think an image gets conjured up in other people's brains about like me with like electrodes or whatever. - Right. I actually did have that image. - Did you? - Yeah. I did think about like, - Right. And that's okay because that's. - ECT for women, you know? - Yes. - That are like, that were too histrionic. - Exactly. - Hysterical women. - Yeah. - It is. And you would, and I don't fault you for that, but I think it's just the portrayal of it in media or some such is makes it so that like people have this, like people project onto me, like their condolences or whatever. And I'm like, I think like it was fine and it was actually quite boring. - Yeah. - But what it did was very pernicious and very slow. And it's been very hard to sort of like wade through that. But thank you for listening to me tell you that story. - Well, thank you for being open. - Anyway. - When people tell on themselves, it's so like years and years and years ago, this is, and don't do this and no one would now. I was a freshman at NYU and me and my friend went into, as a joke, went into the Scientology building and we were like, let, we were like, let, we were like, let's see how crazy it is. And this guy gave us a tour. They split us up, by the way. - Of course. - Yeah. They gave us a tour and it was, I was like, I gotta get the hell out of here. So at the end, he's like, okay, just sign this thing and we'll go. And I just go, the last thing I said was, what made you want to get into this? And he goes, well, for a really long time, I used to be really angry. - And I'm still really angry. - And he was so mad. And then, and then me and my friend were like, oh my God, looking at each other like, what? And he goes, and I just feel like ever since I came here, I'm not angry anymore. And we were like, okay. Like, it's time to leave Scientology Times Square at this juncture. 18 year old me and Lizzie. - Lizzie. - We got the heck out of there. But it's, I feel bad. - The veneer always cracks though. I don't know. It's like, even with this guy who like, professionally was paying it forward in terms of getting people to go back in the closet, it didn't work on him. - Right. - You know what I mean? But my last question before we get into I Don't Think So Honey is, now that you're doing press for this, and in the years that you've done press for this, press for the show, do you feel like there's a kind of scaled up avoidance of transference or that you feel like you have to like, be very guarded about your own personal life or not share too many details about yourself so that the audience does not - Focus on you. - Counter transfer on you in a way because they are parasocially seeing you as a therapist. - Yeah. I mean, that's been from the beginning of us doing the show. I mean, the filmmakers who are now seriously, they could be analysts. They've gone through analytic training with me. - Wow. - But early on they were like, well, you're going to be an important person in the show. We want you involved. We want to know a lot about you. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not going to work. - Yeah. - If you know too much about me, because the whole idea is for the therapist to kind of move to the background to some degree and to let the action unfold, not to focus on me. And I think that's a very important part of the show, that it's not about me and my personality and my background and all of that, but it's about the work. - I feel like you, you probably have to be boundaried about that in the promotion of the show. I'm sure people want to ask you things about yourself. - Yes, but people, I think people are well trained by now. - Good. - Yeah, yeah. - That's great. Cause I'm even like- - You guys have been very nice. - Good. - You haven't asked me a very personal question. Thank you. - I was like, - Come to the Eagle. - I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, like I wonder at the Eagle if we can get into her third. - Not on camera. - Exactly. - Yeah. - No problems. Okay. - Look, your space should feel like you. 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Especially your situationship. And just like people, injectable prep options, not all the same. That's why you need to talk to your doctor and know what to ask. So here's some prep wisdom. Did you know there's more to consider about long-acting injectable prep options than how often you get it? Also, why you want to take it matters. Your lifestyle matters. Your routine. Your chaos level. Your I-might-forget-my-own-birthday energy. All of it counts. Basically, talk to your doctor. Have the conversation. Ask the questions. Be a little nosy about your own health. It's allowed. Encouraged, even. Okay. Did you write all that down? No? Don't worry. Just head to getprepwisdom.com to learn what to ask your doctor. That's getprepwisdom.com. Hey, Bowen, is it just me or does it feel like nothing is actually what it says it is anymore? Yeah, like when you order chicken fingers, you don't get fingers. Exactly. Refreshing. And when booked as a member, rewards are earned every single day. So the name checks out and the perks do, too. Yep. Okay. That tracks. Hotels.com. When the afternoon slump hits, everything feels like an uphill battle. Pure Leaf shows up for you in those moments when breaks are needed most but rarely taken. Sometimes you just need to take a moment to yourself, slow down, and enjoy some Pure Leaf so you can rest. Set. And keep performing at your best. Pure Leaf is available in a variety of flavors including classic sweetened and unsweetened as well as new zero sugar sweet tea and the fan favorite, raspberry. Bring yourself back with Pure Leaf, a real brewed, naturally caffeinated iced tea to help you take on what's next. Time for a tea break. Time for a Pure Leaf. This is I Don't Think So, Honey. Yeah. We have a preview of what yours is going to be, but we'll go first. Yeah. To sort of set the syntax or whatever. I have a therapy-based one. Or emotional-based one. Okay. Because I realized this today, actually, because it happened. All right. Okay. Here we go. This is Matt Rodgers' I Don't Think So, Honey. His time starts now. I Don't Think So, Honey passive aggression because I think I realized what I hate about it. It makes me feel like you think I'm an idiot. Like, I don't see it. And that's what bothers me. Was I being that? No, it's. You can be, but you were not being it because I think you know that I'm smart, but some people I think that. They're not giving me the credit that I don't pick up on every little thing that you say passive-aggressively. I would rather you insult me. 30 seconds. I would rather you be aggressive than be passive-aggressive because of the thing that's running alongside it, which is they're too dumb or they're too self-involved to pick up on what I'm also saying, or what the underlying meaning of this is. I promise you I pick up on it. And the fact that I then have to sit with it is also a noxious thing you're doing. You're not saying what it is. Five seconds. It's something you want me to ruminate on. And because I do think so, honey, I don't think so, honey. It's working, and that's why I don't like it. And that's one minute. But the passive-aggressive behavior I've realized is the thing that gets me the most. But that is the theme of our hour together. Like, the idea. Really, we have a theme here. Really? Yeah, because you're talking about the fact that. Words might not be really what the person is conveying. Right. They're conveying so much more, and you're supposed to ignore all the stuff, but you're picking up on all of it. Yeah. That they're being hostile and mean, and you're supposed to, like, go along with it while you've picked up on it. Somebody said. Like, just say it directly. Just have the words and the behavior match. Yes. This is what set me off. Somebody said, well, so-and-so is the only person that listens to me. And I was just like. Right. I was like, I don't listen. I don't listen. I don't listen to you. Like, and I was just like, it's a couple things. It's like, you don't think I'll pick up on that and be upset about it, or that it would hurt my feelings, and that you would say it in a way that you knew would hurt my feelings when. But not own it. But not own it. It's like cowardly. Yeah. It's like, I do feel like passive aggression, like, especially in well-established relationships or relationships where you know there's a lot of care. I find that if I ever am, like, reacting in a way, people are like, oh, you snapped. It's like. Like, I don't even notice I'm doing it. I think I'm just super sensitive to not being given the credit to handle direct information. Yeah. And are you hoping for them to give you that sort of directness and kind? I'm hoping that people just tell me what's up. Yeah. Like, you have something? Yeah. Say it. Yeah. And maybe it's because they feel like I'm going to have an answer for everything, so they'd rather not directly, like, give me the information because they know that I react very quickly and I'm a verbal processor, but I still don't like it. Yeah. You know, like. I'm with you. Yeah. I bet. Yeah. I'm with you. And it was just. But it's. You know, I was. Again, like, that's why I love the show so much is because it helps you realize things about yourself. Yeah. Because suddenly I'm like, well, they're right. And then this other thing comes in where I'm like, oh, my God. Like, you know. But again, had we just said the thing. Yeah. But not everyone is just ready to say the thing. Right. Yeah. Because there's a whole ocean of nonverbal communication that's happening under this earth. And because we push, we repress, we dissociate, we don't know everything. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Our conscious mind is a latecomer. Yeah. I'm reading The Lathe of Heaven by Ursula K. Le Guin. Have you read it? No. Okay. What is it? Sci-fi novel written in the 70s about, like, a man who has the power to change the world in his dreams, and so he goes to a doctor, and she wrote, like, The Left Hand of Darkness. She's, like, a very. She's, like, very queer, very, like, ahead of her time, still ahead of her time, even though she passed away 10 years ago. Sci-fi writer. But it's basically his clinician understanding his power, like, inducing sleep in him, but, like, influencing his dreams so that he gets what he wants. Oh, wow. It's. Anyway, so there's just. I don't know why I bring this up. Just in terms of, like, that. In terms of the subconscious mind. Yeah. Yeah. Like, having this kind of. But also the bad doctor. No. And it ends up being this. It ends up being this. Is he? He is. He's the villain of the. Yeah. It's the patient understanding what's being done to him, and he has to stop the doctor. It's incredible. I have a more frivolous one. Yeah. But it's still therapy-related. This is Bowen Yang's I Don't Think So, Honey. His time starts now. I Don't Think So, Honey, the white noise machines outside the therapist's office. Come on. I mean, I understand it's important for that arrangement. Sometimes I want brown noise. Sometimes I want pink noise. I want different frequencies. It's such a different. It's such a different frequency of noise. Got it. But it actually has the potential to lull you to sleep. But then your subconscious mind kind of comes to play. I just think. I remember feeling so stupid when I asked my prior. My previous therapist when I would walk into her office. I was like, what are those little dish things at the bottom of each door? 30 seconds. She was like, those are the white noise machines so that people don't listen in on each other's sessions. And I was like, right, right, right. I don't know. Show us a little. We'll keep it a secret. Obviously, it's confidential. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But sometimes, isn't it fun? 15 seconds. It would be fun if therapy were. It would incentivize you to go to therapy so you can just lightly snoop. You can never linger. You can just kind of walk past to go to the bathroom. But then, you know, it gives you. Then it kind of. If it helps divert whatever unnecessary telehealth is happening, I'm all for it. That's one minute. Some telehealth is necessary. Some of it, show up. You must be a little relieved, though, to have the show. So at some element of you, you can be like, can you fucking believe this guy? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you must leave some sessions like, I kind of wish I could share what just happened with someone, but obviously, I can't. Now, you have the show. I know. I know. And I can talk to people about my patients. Exactly. It's like an amazing gift. Kind of a hack. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they let you. By the way, I don't use white noise machines. Interesting. I use music. Oh, great. What kind of music? Yeah, whatever I feel like. Okay. Yeah. Great. I don't like white noise machines. I'm sure you have wonderful taste. I was going to say, what's your. I don't know if you use. Spotify or Apple Music or what. Yeah. Okay. What's on there? What's on there? Oh, my phone's in the other room. Is it instrumental stuff? Is it. At the moment, there's a lot of ambient, ambient electronica. Hell yeah. Yeah. I bet you'd like 10 Tricks Point Never or something. Oh, I just listened to them yesterday. Oh, my God. To him. Oh, my God. That's insane. He just played in Brooklyn. I know. I know. My daughter actually went to that show. I was supposed to go to that show. That's insane. That was the last thing I listened to. Wow. Okay. I'm with you. - I'm with you. Oh, you're so cool, Orna. God, okay. of course you listen to noise all right let's go this is are you ready yes okay this is orna girl dr orna girl next i don't think so honey her time starts now okay i don't think so honey first of all to ask a psychoanalyst to rant is already a problem of course we're so sorry because we're supposed to like analyze all of our grievances and grudges out of ourselves so no road rage but i do have pet peeves go on um i don't think so honey i don't like people that come up to me and ask me can't you leash your dog look at this dog yeah i mean she's like an angel a love bomb an angel and what happens on the street when i'm walking with her and she's just like schmoozing around being loving and sweet and and you know the prettiest face people come and unleash all of their yeah old grudges all of their entitlement and they're just like can't you leash your dog and i'm like can't you leash your anger oh yes and then i start self-analyzing oh no okay okay okay he's another person except otherness maybe he's having a hard day um what's up with you why are other people bothering you uh-huh so that's how it is but i do want to tell you for example that there are people like i had this one guy that was standing with a stroller as a dad with a screaming baby like a lot of environmental noise pollution and he's standing there and he's watching nico my gorgeous love bomb snooping around and she ran behind a building like into the bushes into the shrubbery he just stood there and watched and watched and watched and finally she came back and he's like well are you going to clean up after her so i do not like that i do not like people telling me to leash my dog i think there's a little bit too much um righteousness in people who want me to leash my dog i think they should leash their anger and that's two minutes and that is a lack of control on their part okay and we let you be unleashed okay we unleashed and thank you for that title of this episode is unleashed awesome unleashed with dr orna or or what was it except otherness yes i like that as well maybe it's a maybe it's a slasher it's a slasher film it's part one except otherness part two unleashed um also i just wanted you to know that we did not come in with the intent of you're gonna sit here and listen to us unpack but i'm happy we got the opportunity to do it yeah that's what we do i know thank you for having me indulging us just a little bit as two people have who have considered a couple's therapy i am more reserved yeah and and i and i cop to that i feel he is more reserved and we and we have and yes i think matt was also was about to say that like we are two people who have given a lot of thought to doing like in the professional sense like the couple's therapy which apparently is very common among podcast co-hosts what do you mean there's a lot of there are just a lot of like duos front-facing like public-facing duos yeah um end up finding some sort of like um analytical space for them to like work out oh i'm super interested well but also best friends i mean we were saying like it's like when you when we when we were just best friends in our 20s and we just started to start this podcast together for fun when you're like hey do you want to do this fun thing with me you're not thinking hey do you want to be in 12 years time counting my business partner the person that i'm relying on also my best friend the person i'm next to on stage the person who has to you know answer that email you know what i mean it's just a really work husband transformative yes yes transformative all-encompassing important relationship you know i would love to hear about that yeah all right yeah interesting yeah i'll invite you when i have my podcast yeah well it's funny because we like it's then that my therapist says i don't think that you guys need it because we do communicate like well but mediator was used we use the word mediator if we just can't agree one day court mandated just kidding um this has been sublime for me me too me as well it's been such a pleasure to meet you and it really is it is an endlessly fascinating show and i mean it that's just one way to describe it i mean it's just it it really nourishes me to watch it and again it makes me excited to watch it and i'm really excited to watch it and i'm really excited to watch it and i'm really excited to be in my own therapy i don't know if that means i'm a performative nightmare but um but uh it really does awesome thank you we end every episode with a song what are we gonna sing i i have an idea but it's it's just the instrumental it just can't be loud because of nico of course hold on also our tones of voice have been it's usually much more of a gay scream but this has to be a gay coup because of nico because i know this is how you speak to them okay here we i i and hopefully we all get it okay here we go is this the couple's therapy it's a couple's therapy by the way he positioned his mouth i know this was familiar to me and i was like wait what is it i failed i failed for more of this stream couples therapy may 15th it's out bye awesome lost culture east this is the production by will ferrell's big money players and i heart radio podcasts created and hosted by matt rogers and bowen yang executive produced by anna hosnier and produced by becker ramos edited and mixed by doug bain and our music is by henry kaberski this ad is sponsored by veve healthcare everybody who's considering injectable prep listen up not all injectable prep options are the same you got to talk to your doctor about it and you got to ask the right questions is there an option that fits your lifestyle what about other meds and injection site reactions these are some questions your doctor has the answers start the conversation in the meantime visit get prep wisdom.com and now a break from our sponsor vital proteins the official collagen partner of the u.s open who is upping the excitement at this year's u.s open if a 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