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Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to Real Crime Profile. I'm one of your hosts, Lisa Zamvedi. I'm a casting director for CBS's Criminal Minds as well as other projects and also the board member of Higher Survivors Hollywood, and I'm also currently an adjunct professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, commonly known as UCLA. And with me today is… So do we call you Professor now, Lisa? Is that what you're saying? Prof Z, that's it, Prof Z. Prof Z from now on. I'm Laura Richards, Criminal Behavioral Analyst, former New Scotland Yard, founder of Paladin National Stalking Advocacy Service and host of the podcast Crime Analyst. And I'm Jim Clementi, retired FBI Profiler, former New York City Prosecutor and writer-producer of Criminal Minds. And we have an extremely special episode today, which is altogether now our 500th episode of Real Crime Profile. My god, that's like eight years of episodes? Yes, it's amazing. It's been nine years. I feel like we've said eight years for a few years now. It might even be nine. It's 52 weeks a year, and you know, it's… But we have had a few, you know, extra episodes in a couple of weeks, you know, sometimes. But yeah, it's basically almost 10 years of episodes at 52 weeks a year since we have never taken a week off since we started Real Crime Profile. We have dropped an episode, at least one episode, every week since episode one. Do you all remember that? I definitely do. Yeah, never taking a week off. That's pretty amazing when you think about it across all this time as OG podcasters, because people do take, you know, little breaks here and there and go on holiday. But you two, well, I did take a little bit of time to have Rafi have a baby, take a moment. But we've always produced an episode, and I'm very, very proud of that. It's been a lot of work, and we've worked hard together as a team, but we're here now. We've been a great team. Number 500, drumroll. We wouldn't be here without our listeners. You know, so many listeners are still OG listeners, too. They let us know all the time. Cheryl, looking out at you, Julie, so many people. Eleanor, there's an Eleanor out there who's been with us from the beginning. Without you, we couldn't do any of this. So thank you for staying with us and thank you for all the new people who have been discovering us, you know, as time goes by, crime doesn't stop. And, you know, people find us all the time. Yeah, and we appreciate you. And just looking at the Apple Podcast reviews, 8,858 people have left a review, mostly five stars, which we're very grateful for. We don't pay attention to the one star, you know, there's a couple of smattering in there, but there's a lot of amazing reviews. And particularly recently about Josiah Hildebrand, Liz Hildebrand's son. I know many of you were moved by that. We've been really moved by Liz's story talking about her son, Josiah. And Jim couldn't be with us when we recorded those episodes, but we are going to ask him a few questions because he has been deep diving the case as well to try and unravel some of the things that have gone on for Liz. Some of the horrific things that have gone on for her, yeah. So we know it's not always easy listening. The cases that we cover and we do have that sensibility about it. We want to be advocates. We want to help people. There are a lot of true crime comedy podcasts out there. And as everybody knows, we put the victim's voice right at the center and we told stories that matter. We've talked to you about stories that matter to us and should matter to everybody. And the one thing about Liz Jim and Lisa is it's really the first time her telling the full story. And I just really felt that when she was finding the words to describe what went on. And she did so so articulately and so eloquently. But it's really very difficult for someone to be able to say all the things that have happened in such a complicated story. And she really moved so many people. She's very excited on the weekend too that she went viral on TikTok because she's been learning new media forms to tell the story. And when she posted about Smokey, Josiah's dog, being at the graveside, as she calls it, the grave where Josiah was found, his remains, so many people were moved by that, seeing Smokey trying to process that his puppy had gone. And that's what she went viral on. And I think that that's so wonderful that people are paying attention to the story and to Josiah and saying his name because he was reduced initials in this awful process that Liz was subjected to. Well, the stunning thing that happened just real quick before you jump in, we want to hear from you for sure. But the stunning thing that happened, Laura, as I recorded on our Facebook Live, just hours after we posted our first part of our interview with her, she magically gets an email from, I don't know, the prosecutor's office, I forget now who it was from, saying, oh, from the DA's office, saying, oh, yes, this request you've made of me months ago and that I never responded to. Yeah, I think we're going to try to just write a letter connecting her son's case to the case of a multiple homicide. What other reason could there be except for people who listened to our show reached out and let them know what for, you know? Right, absolutely. And that's something that we've done before where we have had actual an effect in the real world on real cases. And it's happened in the US, it's happened in Australia, I don't know, it may have happened in the UK. But I spoke to Liz and I explained to her, I was actually in the hospital when we recorded those episodes and I'm doing better. I'm back in the saddle here. And I reached out to Liz, build a brand to talk about Josiah and the case and I, you know, I listened to the episodes that you three recorded and I was just shocked. And I'm happy that the FBI agent was and continues to be a sort of shining star in this debacle that was the murder of Liz's son Josiah. But I am very disappointed. And with the actions of the main prosecutor, Tom Hanlon, was that the main prosecutor, the federal prosecutor? Yes, Tom Hanlon. Yeah. And his actions are just nothing short of despicable. The fact is that his decision to offer a plea to one of the two defendants, in which he was promised not to, well, he offered it to both defendants actually, but they were promised not to be prosecuted for the murders of Josiah and the guy who gave him a ride, John Cleary. And yet, they did not get permission, they didn't even meet with the family members, and they made this this deal. This is murder. This is not something you just cast away. You just say, okay, well, you know, we'll take these and not that one. I mean, it's just outrageous. This reminds me of how outraged I was when I heard about what the US Attorney did in Florida, in the Epstein case, when you had solid cases, and then the US Attorney found a slap on the wrist case to end up charging him with. And obviously, that came back to haunt him, well, in the public eye anyway, but not in his political career. Anyway, the point is this was outrageous. And he shouldn't have been able to bargain away murder convictions. And had he done it, the way these deals are supposed to be done is when the offender comes in and is offered a deal, they can give be given immunity for the day. But they're supposed to give all the information about all the crimes they committed, especially all the federal crimes they committed, especially all the murders they committed in a in a spree like this. That all should have been included. But instead, one guy took the deal and the other guy did not. And yet he still didn't prosecute that other defendant. And that's what's outrageous here. He could still to this day forever because it's a murder charge. He could still prosecute. And he's chosen not to. In fact, he's gone further than that and chosen to ignore Liz and completely cut her out. And that's outrageous. I mean, I know it undermined everything she was trying to do to find justice for her son. It undermined all the all the pain and suffering that she went through. And I'm sure John's family went through. This is just not how the justice system is supposed to work. This is broken. I mean, an individual broke it. And the timing was was very bizarre. James cloud decided not to accept the plea deal, but the guilty verdicts came back on him. And that same day, when the guilty verdicts were returned, Donovan accepted the plea deal. And Liz said he walked into court with a big grin on his face. And I said, Yeah, I bet he did because he couldn't believe his luck. The fact the jury came back so quickly, you know, they'd slated the trial for three weeks. And it happened within a week. And then literally overnight, they came back with guilty verdicts for four charges of homicide, which tells us doesn't it, Jim? There was a good solid good solid evidence there, physical evidence as well as circumstances. substantial evidence. And I just find it unfathomable, actually, of why they would make that decision given that Donovan got a cap 27 year sentence. And so here be out in 2042 in his 50s, he's committed all his life violent crime. So I just don't understand why anyone looking at their histories of violence, the brutality, the execution style to these murders, why would we want these individuals coming out, they'd already been in prison and were allowed out early. So they had, they should have been recalled, they should have been in prison. And the whole point for me is that actually this was preventable. Had they have been in prison, just I would still be here. That sliding door, none of that would have happened. And that also seems to be something that's forgotten that a lot of professionals failed because they let them both out early. I don't know why they were given chance after chance. It just seems very odd. And Liz told me that the female judge had said to Donovan and James Cloud that somehow she felt she knew them better and that they were just a bit misguided. And so I just don't understand that either this kind of personal misguided committing multiple murders is not misguided. Well, that was before the murders. That's when they were in prison for violent crime prior to that. But they put nothing good into society. And that's what I don't understand how they can just be given pass after pass. And yet you've got Liz describing her son Josiah who wanted to help people all his life go into the fire brigade wanted to help people. So I just, it's one of the cases that just baffles me in, you know, where's, where's the empathy? Where's the humanity? Why was Liz treated so badly by so many people? Yes, it's so unspeakable. I mean, that is so confusing. I think the answer in terms of the legal maneuvers that this prosecutor made was all about his own image was all about him, his insecurity about whether or not he could secure a conviction. But as you said in the episodes, Laura, there was solid evidence. There was forensic evidence. There was forensic evidence of the same weapon they used. There was forensic evidence of a palm print on the car, the direction of travel. There's so many ways that they could tie these two guys to this murder and to say that, well, we didn't, we don't know which one pulled the trigger. This has happened hundreds of thousands of times where you had multiple people involved. They are both equally guilty, no matter who pulled the trigger because they were both involved in that felony. It's a felony murder. Anybody who's dies in the furtherance of a felony, it's a felony murder. And what happens is, even if the person didn't die by the hands of the bad guys, even if they died because they ran away and got hit by a car, that's still felony murder. And they're still guilty of murdering that person. And the fact that they, that this prosecutor didn't have the guts, I'll say the balls to go forward on this case and, and allowed these guys, even the opportunity to get off so easy, it's just, it's an aberration of justice. And I am, I'm, especially after the conviction, I can't believe he didn't withdraw the plea deal after the conviction came back. So he could have done that, Jim, because I did one, was that an option that could be off the table? Absolutely. As soon as, in fact, that's usually it's the second the trial starts that plea deals are off the table. That's usually the case. But certainly when you have a conviction in one of the cases, of course, you could withdraw the plea deal. You can't, nobody can force the prosecutor to give a plea deal unless the prosecutor doesn't want to go to trial. I'm glad you clarified that because that makes it even more egregious, right, frankly. Yeah. Why do you think that one of them took it and the other did side not to you think he was just rolling the dice that the cops didn't have enough on him to convict him or, you know, Well, I mean, he, if the way, the way it played out, though, he went to trial, right? And, and James Cloud did. Yeah, he, he, he, yeah, he rolled the dice. He thought he would get away with it and he didn't. And then the other guy took the plea, right? Yeah. The same, the same day the guilty verdicts were returned, he came into court smiling his face off and very happy to take that plea deal. Right. Because he knew what they had done. I mean, it's, it's a mass murder and spree murders. These guys are serial killers. And yet they're like you said, he's walking, right? He's going to be out. He's going to be out back in the community and that's the dangerous. And who else is going to die because of it? It's blood on their hands. I mean, you know, this was a trial at the time where there was COVID. So I did wonder whether it was about expediency, but even that the public protection risk is just huge. And I, and I just think that Liz was told, you know, let's get closure for the families, the victims families, as if she's just one, she doesn't have nothing to do with it. I found that egregious as well. Who do they think they're talking to? They're talking to a mother bereaved. Right, right. I don't know. And, and look, Laura, there could be something behind the scenes or could be something that was screwed up because, you know, they didn't investigate properly or they didn't search this area or they searched this area and said there was nothing there, whatever. I don't know what the embarrassing thing might be that he didn't want to go to trial on it. But clearly, this is a series of events that happened that ended in the death of at least seven people. And they should have been charged with all those deaths. I mean, they did miss the bodies, right, Jim? So you are right on that. They missed them in the searches when it was handed over. But if that were the case, that would have come out in the first trial anyway, right? Because they weren't tried together. They were tried separately. So because that's what I scratch my head over, what is it that they don't want being exposed? I think it might, I think I know what it is. I think he was afraid that in the second trial, the defense is going to be, Oh, this guy was convicted. I didn't do it. He did it. But still, all he had to do is prove that they were together acting together. And he wouldn't have to prove who pulled triggers or anything like that. So it's just, it's unless he improperly charged the crimes. I don't know what one of them would have been able to testify against the other. So yeah, I mean, and hey, maybe, you know, the one who was convicted might have got on the stand and said, No, I did it. But still, that's it's okay. You can certainly argue that, look, what's going on? It's clear what's going on. This one's just trying to protect that one. But they were both together. They both were involved in the murders of all these people. And they should go down for all those murders. There's just no way that he should have gotten a buy on two murders because he took a plea that covered five. It's just, I'm sorry, you're diminishing the lives of those men. They were sons and brothers and friends and loved ones. And they did not get justice. Period. Now, well, he got immunity off all the murders because it was for brandishing a firearm, holding a gun to a teenager's head. He was actually sentenced on much lesser offenses, not the homicides. That's the point that the seven went away. And it was for much lesser offenses that he was sentenced to those 27 years. This prosecutor just, I don't get it. I just don't understand how that could happen on the heels of a conviction. Yeah, just got a conviction in the other case. Well, that's what's so confounding to me. The timing, why not just take the plea deal off the table and go to trial? You've already got those convictions that puts you in good stead. You know where the weaknesses are with the case, the other side do too. But there's just so much at stake for Liz and for John's family. And you know what? If you go to trial, if you start the trial, that other defendant, I mean, very likely their lawyer is going to say, look, you know, I mean, you don't really have a shot here. Maybe we can get, you know, a better sentencing if you plead, you know, but usually, and I'm telling you, Laura, in these cases, usually you take a plea to one count of the top charge so that they're being held responsible for what they actually did. What you're telling me now, I didn't realize that his plea was to lesser charges. Yes. Just outrageous. So he's not a convicted murderer. No, not on those murders. It was because he was the one that wanted to get the vehicle from the family that after he left White Swan, he found a family, they were, I think they were in their house, he wanted their car, he put a gun to their heads, but more so he put a gun to their teenage son, marched him into the car and drove off. And then the family, the parents yelled at him to just jump out the moving vehicle, which the teenager did. So that was a murder prevented in my view. But that's what he was charged for, brandishing the firearm, putting the gun to his head and then other more minor crimes. Wow. Crazy. It is. Well, Liz's, I know Liz is very grateful and happy that her story got out on our show. She's been getting tremendous amount of support. As you said, Laura, some of her, her TikToks have gone viral. And she's like, I can't believe this is happening after all this time of trying to get somebody to just, just get a journalist to report her story has been a huge battle. So we hope that somebody takes this up. I'm, I told her, I'll make a documentary about this any day. I'll make a scripted story about this any day. You know, I hope that that can happen some day so that more people know about Josiah Hildebrand. Yes, I agree. And I think, I mean, just to clarify, yes, Donovan pleaded guilty to the carjacking and brandishing the firearm. The other charges were dismissed, including killing Josiah and John. My question was why. So, you know, for Liz, one of the things that she told me, because I spoke to her afterwards again, was that it's the bearing witness that we did to her and Josiah of people listening to her and bearing witness to what happened that she found so validating and empowering. And I just want to make that point. Yeah, that's why we started real car profile to hear and to present the victims stories. Yeah, I gotta tell you over, over these past nine years, you know, I've, for better or worse, I've manned the Facebook messages that come to us. And Jim and Laura, so many people write to us, yes, to, you know, complain about an episode or praise us about an episode or suggest an episode. But so many of them just say, I heard your episode and this happened to me. And they just want to be heard. It's like they don't even necessarily want to take action on what happened to them or their loved one or their, you know, or whatever, but they just want their story to be acknowledged and to be acknowledged as a victim or a survivor or have their loved one acknowledged. And so, you know, I'm just so happy to sit there and listen and respond and do what I can to make sure they feel like somebody gives a fuck, you know? Yeah, she said she just felt like she'd been sort of shouting into the wind. And I think because there'd be no real national press pick up as well, you know, it's the feeling of being so powerless and hopeless and helpless in the system. And sometimes we overlook that. Don't we? We overlook that. Actually, it's the smaller things just listening to someone's story, holding space for them. And yes, it was it was certainly one of my tougher cases out of our 500 plus, it was definitely one of many actually, because there have been others, but it stopped me in my tracks. And it just made me think about how I train people what I say differently. And sometimes you miss the most basic things, which is validating somebody and just listening. And as a professional, just being able to empower them that they were right to think and to ask that question, they were right because they've been told for so long that they're wrong. And it's like a gaslighting, isn't it? It's a very horrible thing. You're in trauma. And then professionals are turning things on its head. And it's very confusing to understand what what's real and what's not when you've got professionals all holding the line. And, you know, they've got a plan and they're sticking to it. But it's not too much to ask for Liz to have a letter, which confirms that there was a plea deal, and that these cases were linked. It's like throwing her a scrap from the table. It's not even a major thing. That was even more egregious to me. They're not even giving her anything major. It's just acknowledging what they did in that process that ties to that. If that's what they did, they should be happy to acknowledge it. If they actually included the murders of her son and and John in that plea deal, then why would they be unhappy to include that? What is the what is the negative and and to just use their initials was very bizarre. Like, you're talking about two human beings who were murdered, whose lives were stolen from them and from their families and their friends and their loved ones. I mean, give me a break. It's so outrageous. And then to acknowledge the other family members who lost their loved ones, but not Liz was just it was disgusting to me. And and there's something there's something going on there behind the scenes. There's some reason because this is just it's such blatant outrageous behavior. It was the spring of 1988, Northwestern Alabama, a preacher commits a sin, a deeply personal transgression. And from there, everything spirals out of control. The amount of damage this man did is incalculable. It's still damaging all of us. It still hurts us to think about from revisionist history. This is the Alabama murders. Listen to revisionist history, the Alabama murders. Any way you get podcasts on Halloween night, 1957, Peter Fabiano answered a knock at his front door. He expected to find one last trick or treater. Instead, he was greeted by a costumed killer who gunned him down right there on the welcome mat. As the investigation got underway, people weren't just asking who committed this crime. They wanted to know why they chose Halloween. Hi, I'm Jeremy Schwartz, host of the true crime history podcast American criminal. We take you inside the minds of some of our most notorious felons and outlaws exploring the dark side to the American dream. In our latest season, a trick or treater who terrified Los Angeles, the Candyman killer who changed Halloween forever and the house so infested with demons that it caused the murder of an entire family. Or so the legend goes. Listen to American criminal Halloween horrors wherever you get your podcasts. Or to get early at free access to the entire season first, subscribe and Apple podcasts, Spotify, or at AmericanCriminal.com. We pivot to yet another totally crazy thing that's going on. Laura, are you ready? Yes. Over the past week or so, I've been made aware of these random acts of sucker punches against women walking, mining their own business on the streets of New York City. It's been a rash of some kind of spontaneous violence by multiple offenders who don't appear to be connected to each other, multiple victims who don't appear to be connected to each other, nor to the men who are punching women in the head, in the face. I don't quite know what to make about it. Jim and I lived in Manhattan and you walk with a sense of danger at all times. I know that every once in a while there would be a random somebody throwing a brick at somebody's head or something happening, but not like this. Maybe it was just never reported and I don't know if because they're posting their stories on TikTok, is it encouraging copycats or I'm just wondering, Laura, what you make of all this in particular? Well, I was absolutely gobsmacked at seeing this and that's probably the wrong turn of phrase actually. I noticed that on TikTok, there were a number of women sharing stories that all had a common theme that randomly as they're walking along, mining their own business, they were then punched in the face. Some of them reported it and some of them didn't. Some of them felt shame that it was something that they had done, but when I then started to research it and I did do a post, I started to see the various outlets were starting to pick up on it and their headlines were things like women being punched in the face from nowhere and I thought about that from nowhere. There was no connection to its men punching women in the face and so I jumped on a couple of CNN and various Instagram posts where they've got these ridiculous headlines and I said, "It's men punching women in the face. We have to be clear about who's doing what to whom." Then I got piled on by quite a few men saying, "Well, you don't know that. You don't know that it's men. It's people punching people." I said, "No, actually." No, it's women being punched in the face by men. That's what they're disclosing. Yes, there are some women who don't know who it was that punched them. I think it's a stretch to think that women would just be going up to another woman and just punch her in the face when you've got all these other scenarios where women and it seems to be in Manhattan, Manhattan South and Midtown. Of course, the first question is, is it the same guy who's doing this randomly? I start to look at the TikToks and I see that all the women, it's a subjective thing but they're all quite attractive. One of them is actually a social media influencer, Hallie Kate, very attractive. In fact, there has now been an arrest in her case. Now, when she put her video out, it got viewed 41 million times. I suspect that then TikTok, the algorithm kicks in and so these other women where women hadn't spoken out before or some who had, they then started to become more prominent in the algorithm. What was also interesting about that, and I'll come back to the guy who has been arrested for punching her in the face, was that she then put out another post praising New York City saying, "I love New York. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before. I've looked at the videos of the other women. I don't think it's the same person." She said this, "I think it must just be a somewhat common thing that happens in big cities." "13 girls," she's saying, "that were punched in the face in New York." That's a somewhat common thing. I just want to categorically say this is not a common thing that happens, that women are walking around the street, minding their own business, and then being punched in the face. It certainly doesn't happen in big cities. It's not something having worked at New Scotland Yard on the Homicide Prevention Unit. We did not have cases where women were just being punched in the face. This horrifies me that this young woman thinks that this is just normal. It does because I just think this should never just be, "Oh, well, maybe it's just a common thing." It's not really for her to say whether these cases are linked. In her case, New York Police Department, the MIPD, were investigating and they did arrest somebody called Skiboki Stora, a guy who punched her in the face. He has appeared in court. At court, he said that he's running for mayor, probably tells you something about his mental health, and he has run politically multiple times and has been suspended multiple times. He was ranting in court. He interrupted the judge multiple times. He told the judge that his rights had been violated and the judge said, "I can't control how you feel, but your rights aren't being violated," and had to keep making these very clear declarations. Well, there are three open cases on him of going up to women who are minding their own business on the phone and just punching them in the face. Some of them have had very serious things happen. One was punched in the face so hard, it broke her jaw. She had to have her jaw wide. We're talking about very serious injury and Jim knows this, the one punch rule. You can punch someone in the face and they can go down and you can kill them. You could and you'd be responsible for murder, not just whatever you intended. You take your plaintiffs as they are. You don't know what kind of injuries they already have or what kind of vulnerabilities they have. It's a very risky thing. I remember there was a young lady who shoved an older woman down, remember, a few years back. Just to finish up on him, NYPD said that he has a history of similar assaults. He's been arrested multiple times over the past six months. He keeps being bailed. They don't hold anybody anymore. They don't hold anybody anymore. There's sources behind the scenes who say that he remains the suspect in other cases. It seems to me, I know there's this kind of viral thing going on that people think that this could be multiple men and it's a viral thing going on, but I think he is probably responsible for a large number of them. The majority of them, right, exactly. He's a public protection risk. The problem for me is, why isn't he being remanded? I know this is a problem specific to New York because of... Well, NLA is a problem here too. Not being remanded. He's going to go on to kill somebody with the way that he's acting. Imagine just blatantly, in the middle of the day, just walking up to someone and just punching them in the face and just doing it in full view of everybody and then nothing happens. What's the message? Keep doing it. That's obviously what he's been doing. It's outrageous. When I first heard about this, the two things that I thought, and maybe it's going to sound crazy, but the two things that I thought were copycats and shark week. When I say that, I mean, when people who are mentally disturbed or who have an axe to grind see that somebody is getting headlines for doing something or this is a way to get them headlines, then you will probably see copycats. You will probably see it's like school shooters. It's trying to get a bigger bang for their buck. That's one possibility here. The other, when I say shark week, whenever the media decides it's shark week, they start covering shark attacks. It seems like, "Oh, there's just multiple shark attacks during that week, but that's just them covering it. It happens all the time." I know that one influencer who said, "This just happens in big cities." Well, like you said, Laura, it doesn't just happen in big cities, but it is something that when people know that they can get away with it, it is something that disturbed people, misogynistic, violent people might do to get attention, to be a part of something. It is unfortunate how, and this is why we here at RCP rarely ever mention the names of offenders because we're not trying to give them the light of day. We're not trying to give them the spotlight, but I think, yes, you're right. This guy probably is responsible for a majority of them. Now, if you look at I only have the map of where the first six are, but they're all in Midtown and down in Chelsea within a 15 block radius. It's a very small piece of New York City. To me, the proximity tells me that either they advertised where it was, where they happened, and so that's where you got copycats, or you're talking about probably one person being responsible for most of them and then somebody else trying to tag on to get some frustration out or act out these violent fantasies that they have, that they've been harboring, or act out on delusions that they have because they have mental illness. All of those reasons, whenever you have a celebrity, whenever you have something that is making the news, these kinds of people will be attracted to it. I think that because nothing was being done, why didn't the NYPD just say, "Okay, we're going to flood Midtown and Chelsea with cops on the street, and if anybody is seen doing that, call to the public. If you're a man and you see somebody attacking a woman, if you call us immediately, take pictures, whatever, there was no call to action as far as I know that could have been done to show that this was serious and that we want to stop this." I think in that void, this is what happens when you get somebody who is arrested repeatedly for violent acts, who obviously is disturbed and he gets put it back out on the street over and over and over again. The last time I was in New York City, I was walking with a friend of mine and there was a very deranged, homeless person who decided to latch on to us and to follow us and literally picking up pipes, picking up things, throwing them at us. Obviously, this guy was disturbed and calling 911 didn't help because it was happening right then and we were trying to walk away from the situation because I knew this guy, there's nothing that's going to change this guy's mental outlook, and literally until we were able to get into a building and prevent him from getting into the building, he was on us the whole entire time. People weren't as situationally aware or haven't been in this kind of a situation or haven't been trained in self-defense, don't have the skills and abilities to avoid that thing. Especially if somebody is just blindsiding you while you're walking to get your lunch or going to work or coming home from a meeting. Usually people in New York are very determined and they're going where they're going because they have to fight all sorts of traffic and pedestrian traffic jams and all that. They're focused on that and it's very easy to get blindsided by somebody like this. It's just why wasn't there an immediate response? Why has it gone from six now to 13? Why is this guy being arrested and let out? Why? Because the system's broken there, it's just broken. A very cynical side of me thought that this could have been some kind of online in-cell internet challenge, something that we'll find out was commanded or demanded. It reminded me of a gang initiation a little bit because that is something I have swept through different places that I've lived, but it wasn't mainly aimed at females. It was just like a random act of violence against an innocent person as part of the hazing or part of your initial life. It reminds me back in the '80s, all the wilding incidents that although they weren't organized, they were sort of viral. Again, you have to put a swift end to those things. You have to actually hold people responsible or people say, "Hey, we got away with it. Let's keep going." Exactly. But the people coming in on the comments saying, "Well, not all men," which is what I always get, which is just such a redundant comment. We know it's not all men doing it, but as I always say, it takes all men to fix it. There was this tiktoker. He's called Midnight123. He looks like, well, I'll show you a little picture here. He looks, he's built like a brick shithouse, quite frankly, but he was basically saying, "Men going around punching women, I'm going to be patrolling the streets to see who these men are and let's sort out the boys from the men." I just love that because it's him showing leadership that he's going to go out and make the streets safe. Well, that's what you want the police to do. Right. Why isn't it NYPD? Why isn't the mayor doing that? Yeah. And calling on other men to do the same because it does take all men to hold these Peter guys to account. It is absolutely unacceptable for women to have, and I know through my fiancé's sisters, they were terrified of going on the subway or walking around. Women shouldn't feel that way. And they're both street savvy, smart women. They've lived in New York all their lives. But when something is just so unpredictable, why are you going to put yourself at risk? So it makes your world smaller. And I get so pissed off with men making women's world smaller, but this is just a blatant and brazen attack on women and women's safety. These women now, many of them, their whole sense of security and peace and tranquility has been disturbed. And there's no accountability for that so far. And this guy, clearly, there's some mental health issues there. He thinks he's going to be mayor, but then you've got Donald Trump who did get there. So it's like, I can understand why people think that anybody can become president now. Anyone can become a mayor. Anyone can do these things. And that is also disturbing because when I was in the UK, seeing Donald Trump rise to presidency and say the things that he did, I just couldn't believe that that was happening. But what it's done is green lit. Anybody to think anything's possible. And that is so bothersome to me. Right. And do you guys have your own version of him out there? Well, we did. But yes, we did. There were many versions. There were two of them. And we'll see many more, I'm sure. But there are, like this guy, Midnight123, who's been patrolling the streets at night, trying to find, you know, I certainly wouldn't want this guy coming after me, that's for sure. But it sends a very powerful message. And he was going viral, but he was one of few men actually saying, this is disgusting. This is outrageous. This is not okay. But Jim and Lisa, it's so rare to have that. Like I said, when I piled in, you know, on the news headlines, it was just incredible, the amount of men who took issue with me for spotlighting the problem. And that is always what you're up against. That's just shows you it's all part and parcel of the problem of misogyny. And, you know, I feel terrible for this young, you know, Hallie Kate thinking that it's just a common thing that for women to be punched in the face in big cities and, oh, well, that's just something that happens. I mean, we never want to get to that situation. You know, meanwhile, you've got a Netflix show going out called Homicide New York, which is Dick Wolf's program, where MIPD are seen as tough on crime and, you know, doing these incredible things. They might do that at the homicide event. But how about we try and prevent those homicides? How about we do the homicide prevention work and the public protection work and keep women, you know, and men, but keep people safe when we see these red flag behaviors going on? I mean, how many times does this guy have to go to court before he's going to be there's going to be a serious sentence? They've destroyed the system there. They've destroyed it here in LA too, and probably a lot of other cities across the US. Well, hopefully we have a new DA coming in, and hopefully that'll start to change here. I don't know what's going to happen in New York. Well, Laura, you know, when you mentioned, you know, how those TikTok videos that the women had posted had gone viral, I don't think that they went viral because they were sympathy-watched. I mean, I think they went viral because some people find it funny and find it entertaining and think she got what she deserved. You know, I'm sorry, I might just, have I turned completely cynical and like, what happened to me? I mean, I just have no faith in... Well, you know, it's in light of that bald asshole and his brother, who I won't mention their names, but, you know, who think that in order to be a man, you have to be toxic. You have to be misogynistic. If you're a man and you're secure in your manhood, the last thing you have to do is treat women badly. Everything in your life should be geared towards treating all people nicely, humanely, equally. There's no reason for you to have to step on others to feel strong yourself if you actually have a good self-image. So anybody who has to attack others to feel better about themselves is just leaking out the information that they are insecure. And those two clowns just leech that out of their systems. And who are their fans? Eight-year-old boys, you know, who want to be men, who think that that's what it means to be a man. Hopefully, they'll grow up and to understand that that's just bullshit. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that, you know, everybody watched it in that way, Lisa, but I do agree that some did, for sure, of, you know, particularly seeing, you know, young, attractive influences and sort of the gore watching of it all. But for me, I just felt tremendous empathy and like, who the hell is out there doing that? And what about the bystanders? What about the people that see it and do nothing? And that's why this guy Midnight123, you know, there are people out there who want to put good into the world and we've just got to join together. And, yeah, TikTok is the wild west. I think the algorithm pushed forward a lot of those, you know, cases and not everybody reported to the police. So NYPD were behind the curve. But the point is, you know, when I was in the Met Police, you wanted to get community intelligence. You wanted to be on top of those things. And social media is a good tool for that, in a way, of knowing what's going on. But you've got to be prepared to act. But it's really worrying. I just, you know, feel in my gut, you know, Hallie Kate turning around saying, oh, I think it's just somewhat common. It's something that happens, you know, for women just to expect that they should be treated like that and shrug it off. To me, it's just unacceptable. It's just a sign of how far society has fallen for people to think that that is okay. Any random act of violence or or domestic violence. Or but this is somehow, you know, given that they were just going about their everyday business. And you can just imagine the shock of something like that happening to you. And some women felt utter shame, like it was something that they had done to not say anything. So I really want NYPD to get on top of this and start to grip the violence that is just so blatant and brazen. You have to do we have to do better. So if social media does nothing else other than push forward people's stories and voices, well, that's what we're all about. But yes, I was pretty horrified to see that story unfold. Dick Wolf's Homicide New York, have either of you watched it? I have not. I saw like a couple of minutes of the intro and I wasn't interested. Well, what didn't gel for you? Well, I think the source of it, actually, Dick Wolf. I'm not a fan. I'll say that not at all. I've dealt with him professionally. And I know that just one more thing that you know, I just I just I'm not interested in watching his stuff. I mean, if you, you know, there was a time when I was helping him and his show runners get more authentic, accurate information out into shows and and he just sort of blew that all off. And that's that's the reality. And so I'm not interested in watching his shows. Yeah, well, in this town, lots of crazy things happen with ideas being taken from people. But one thing I will say is that Barbara Butcher, who's on there is as a death investigator is is pretty awesome. You know, for me, she kind of holds the nothing against the people in the show, the real people in the show. That's not a it's a documentary series, right? The new one that's on it, which I think it's five different cases. But yeah, she's she's pretty good on it. And also on Netflix, now that our listeners will probably be interested in his scoop, which was Sam McAllister's book. And now it's a movie, which, you know, I did dive into Sam's been doing a lot of promotion. She's been in New York. We keep talking about New York in a Times Square. She had all the the movie was up there and she was stood there. Billy Piper, Jillian Anderson, they pay Jillian Anderson is Emily Maitlis. And Billy Piper is Sam. And they've done a pretty good job. I have to say, I mean, we know the story. But for me, it's still held my attention. Jillian Anderson, I love, you know, she's just inhabits every character that she plays and Billy Piper is the fall is still the best profiling show I've ever seen 100%. Yeah. It was so it's what I wished we could do on criminal minds, take one case and really dive into it. They did it such, you know, with such perfection, I thought it was amazing. Yeah, no, so it's definitely worth a watch. And some of the things that we talked about in our Epstein series, of course, you know, we did our deep dive, which went on, well, it seemed to go on forever. But I remember that BBC News Night interview being asked, would I comment on it? I only I didn't see the show, but I was asked to listen to some of the transcripts, the radio transcripts of it. And I spoke out on on the BBC before it had dropped at not knowing that it would have such an important place in history. I mean, it's changed history. And certain things in the in the movie, they played out like the teddy bears. Do you remember Andrew's teddy bears and him having lots of different teddy bears, and he would have them on his bed and get very angry if they were out of order and would tell staff off where they played that out. There were a lot of nods to teddy bears, which for me, it was quite an insidious thing. There's something deeply disturbing about a grown man being so OCD about these teddy bears. But the acting is superb in it. They didn't go hard on Andrew with his traveling clothes, but they did with him. And he's wanting to go and speak to his mummy. And the things that he didn't say, I at no point in the interview did, even though Emily gave him multiple chances to say sorry, or, you know, this, it was a terrible thing. He never at any point said, I'm sorry, he just said it was unbecoming behavior. And so those lines really, Rufus Sewell, yeah, he's brilliant as Andrew. I really think he embodies him and just the, sometimes the vacant stairs, you know, and the, there's just some really brilliant moments, the pizza express in Woking. Do you remember that him saying that he couldn't have gone to tramps because he'd gone to pizza express in Woking. And then we had the, well, it couldn't be me because of the sweating, sweating, yeah. I don't sweat because I've been in a traumatic incident in the war. They did do a great job. And there's clearly a lot of tension between or was between Sam and Emily Maitlis that she was sort of the top dog on the show. All their jobs were in jeopardy. And I think Sam said that you both interviewed her, I interviewed her on crime analysts that their jobs were in jeopardy. But Sam really did engineer a mastermind the whole thing. And I think there's been some criticism just looking at the press, the Emily Maitlis and Esme, the controller of BBC News Night were trying to take the credit for it and not attributing it to Sam. So it's a shame to see those things when they happen because it does, I mean, Sam did write the book and it's very clearly that she put a lot of time and effort into making that interview happen. And it was all her energy, her time, and it was a major get, of course it was, but the, the consequences of it has changed history forever. Although I do fear that Andrew may be making a comeback. There's, you know, in public life, which I really hope doesn't happen. He did settle, you might recall that there was a civil suit where he ended up paying Virginia Jouffre, a woman who he claimed he never met, never knew, but he paid her £12 million. So that's a lot of money to pay someone you never met and never knew, isn't that? Okay, Michael Jackson, I mean, there we go. Yeah, a lot of money, but yeah, definitely worth a watch. Well, I haven't seen that, but I do have three racks of my own if we, if you want me to share those now. Sure. So I just watched this Irish cop show called Blue Lights. It's so great. I highly recommend it. It's about these rookie Irish cops who are trying to, you know, navigate kind of a dirty system and it's just great. I didn't know any of the, I didn't know many of the actors in it, but it's great. I highly recommend it. I think I watch it on Britbox. Will I need subtitles? Yes, you will. But I highly recommend it. I made a whole list of actors that I hope to cast someday. There's so many brilliant young actors in it. And then there's a new show out called Time. It's season two of something called Time that stars Bella Ramsey who was in Game of Thrones and the last of us, Jody Whitaker who was Dr. Who and a wonderful actress named Tamara Lawrence. And they play three women who are incarcerated for different reasons and they're serving their time. So it's called Time and it's really, really good. And the last thing I want to recommend is a show on Netflix called One Day. Oh my God. It is so freaking good. It stars Amkeena Maud and Leo Woodall. If you watched White Lotus then you know Leo. It's a love story between these two people through years and years of their lives and it's just so touching and beautiful and wonderful. I highly give it my highest recommendation. It's great. And witty. It's funny. It's like an emotional roller coaster. I actually wrecked it on social media some time ago because I was so taken by it. And once you're in, it's very hard. They're quite short episodes but it's very hard not to binge because it's so good. Yeah, the acting superb but it's an emotional roller coaster to get the tissues out. Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of binging, you know, I was recovering from surgery and so I went back and tried to find something that had a lot of episodes and I literally don't know why I never watched it before but I watched the entire seven seasons, six or seven seasons of This Is Us and it was also an emotional roller coaster. It reminded me, this is for older people, but of 30-something, you know, back in the day when I was 30-something and it, you know, I liked the device that they used going, you know, basically telling stories in different decades, you know, sort of, but you see the themes intertwined between all of those, the times that they, they depict and I thought it was really well done and I really, you know, I fell in love with the characters and I thought they were, you know, wonderful, interesting, complicated people and, you know, the choices that were made that had lifelong consequences and the characters, I just thought it was very well written and very well acted and I just, that would be a big recommendation of mine but the two more recent shows that I really liked, one, this is one I thought you might have liked Laura for a criminal record. That was going to be one of mine. Really? Criminal record, I thought, yeah, on Apple, I thought was really well done and it was intricate and very complicated and it was a, it was a good, solid crime show and I thought the characters were great and then the other one, which is something I just watched, you know, this last week was quite on the set and quite on the set is about children in Hollywood and, you know, between Disney and Nickelodeon and how exploitive that world actually was and how difficult it was for many of these kids and, and how certain people who sort of rose to the top were not good people and was that the reason why they let in so many pedophiles into, into their midst? I don't know but the point is that it was a, I think it's, it's a story that need to be told and it's something that certainly parents need to be aware of when they, when they put their kids into harm's way and I hope that we can cover that in the future on Real Grand Profile. I'm so glad that those child stars are speaking out. There's even more of them out there. I follow quite a few of them. They all, they, some of them have their own podcast telling the stories of what happened to them on those sets and I have to say Jim and Laura, I have cast hundreds of children in my career. Many of them in extremely graphic and violent pieces of material, you know, dramatic piece of material like on criminal minds where, you know, a child is being sex trafficked, you know, is being shoved in a, in a footlocker or whatever and our staff and our producers made absolute sure that their heads, hearts and bodies were kept safe. I mean, when I would be auditioning a child about something very graphic like they were the victim of child sex abuse, I would not tell that child that's what this scene is about. They don't have to know that the context of why they're sitting on a couch and looking nervously at a door or something. They can, I make up any things. I wrote some of those episodes. I know, I know. And the whole point of writing those episodes was to try to educate the world, literally the world, about how these things happen, who does them and what these offenders are really like rather than saying they're all monster predators that you'll be able to see when they walk down the street. A lot of them are people that smile on your face and hide the truth. Well, when you're on a show that's a kid friendly show, a Disney show or a Nickelodeon show, you know, and it gets very chummy and buddy, buddy, it's even, you know, in some ways I think it's, it's just a groomer's paradise, you know, because it's such a benign material. You don't think that a child is going to be in danger. Except that some of that material, based on the work of one particular person, some of that material was, was very suggestive and, and really, really nasty. In any case, yes, it would be great to cover that and maybe get some people on who have firsthand knowledge of that kind of situation. But anyway, Absolutely. And just to go back to criminal records, I, I watched the first episode and I have to say I was just absolutely 100% in the female lead in it, Kush Jimbo is just incredible. She's kind of, you know, has got this presence about her. And she is just brilliant as is Peter Capaldi who plays sort of the nemesis character. But I have to say it was so on point with New Scotland Yard and just the politics and the, yeah, it was really well done. I wonder who did their tech advice because it was, you know, pretty on point all the politics playing out with a big P and a small P and post Stephen Lawrence, the racism and yeah, it really well done. And I recommend everybody to, to go and watch it because once you're in, you're in and that's on, on Apple. So that was one of mine, Jim, so my slow horses, which And I think, yeah, I was going to say, we should also give special mention to slow horses, which Laura and I are just waiting with bated breath for the next season to come out of that. Gary Oldman. So disgustingly good. And that's the only way to describe him in this role. Disgustingly good. He used to hang out at a bar. We used to hang out when I lived in New York. We used to see him all the time. And you know, just, I never saw him like he is in this series. Oh my God. Yeah. He's just phenomenal. Go on, Lisa. What are you going to say? I was just going to say, we weren't able to go live via Zoom, but we are going to go live this way. Hi, everybody. Happy 500th episode. Hi, everyone. Here's Laura. Hey. Happy big 500. We tried, we tried to go live for you, but Facebook and Zoom are, are, are in a break up. They weren't cooperating. They weren't cooperating. So this is the best we could do. We're just finishing up our 500th episode, which we... Thank you for being with us for 500 episodes, 500 episodes. It's amazing. We never envisioned it being this amazing. And again, like Lisa said earlier, it's all because of our listeners and viewers. I mean, it is all because of you that we're here and we're able to hopefully help people out there, not only in our little neighborhood, but literally around the world. And we talk about the stories that matter, the cases that matter. Some of them are well-known, but a lot of them aren't. And we just want to thank you for your response to Liz Hildebrand, Josiah's mum, who you've reached out to and you've read her blog and you've just held her with such compassion. So I just want to say a big thank you. And yes, almost nine years we've been doing this. We are the OG and it feels like the OG. We've never missed an episode because we've always wanted to connect with all of you. So a huge thank you to all of you for being on this incredible journey with us. So we're going to sign off for now and this hopefully we'll be posting sometime. We also need to thank our editor, Nick, who has been by our side for many, many. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Nick. And also thanking Julia, our special media manager. Thank you, Julia. You tried to get us live today, but it didn't work. But you'll be hearing our episode at some point tomorrow. So for now, this is Real Crime Profile, signing off. Episode 500. If you like listening to our show and appreciate the work that Jim and Laura do and their expertise, you can do us a big favor. Please head over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to our pod and leave us a five star rating and write your thoughts about why you enjoy our show. That really, really is important and helps other people find us. Also, did you know that you can share our episode? It is so easy. On the Apple Podcast app, click the three dots drop down menu and you'll see an option to share to your socials or to a particular person. And then they can hear for themselves why you love listening to Real Crime Profile. Thank you so much for your support. Real Crime Profile was created by Jim Clemente, Laura Richards, and Lisa Zambedi. Produced by Laura Richards, Lisa Zambedi, Jim Clemente, and XG Productions, and distributed by Wondery. Editing by Nick Czerwarski at Podcast Monster. Logo art by Jim Clemente. Music composed and performed by Simba Tsumba. Copyright © 2018 Mooji Media Ltd. All Rights Reserved.