unhiding The Man Behind The Work, ft. Navneet Ahuja, Founder of unhide

Beyond Marketing: Storytelling as a Deep Responsibility Some people build companies, some people build credibility, and some people build inner lives first and let the work follow. I want to start a little differently today. Before we talk about journeys, milestones, or even an height, I want to begin with how my guest sees the world through stories because I've always felt that the way someone understands stories tells you far more about them than their resume ever could. Navneet Ahuja is the founder of Unhide, a visual storytelling studio that has worked across sectors and skills, from global brands and institutions like PepsiCo, Havel, Sengobin, Alstorm, EHL, Duncan, Jubal and Subway to founder Cxos and Padma Sri awardees. But this conversation isn't about the work alone. It's about the individual behind it. Because behind the films, the designs and the aesthetics is someone who built himself quietly, often without applause and often through discomfort. Born into financial turbulence, raised by two very different parents. Shaped by early laws, inner conflict and long periods of self doubt. A founder who chose therapy before ego, truth before performance, meaning before money. Navneet doesn't believe in creativity is a decoration. He believes it is a responsibility. This episode is not just about how to build a business or a brand. It's about how to build oneself before 1 shows up. To think, create, lead, and unhide. This is unapologetic me. And today we unhide the individual behind the work. Navneet, I'm just so glad I finally got the time on your calendar and all of those permutation combinations have finally worked. So welcome. Speaker 2 Thanks, Ekta. It's it's really, really good to be here. First and foremost, congratulations for what you are doing with this podcast. I love the kind of guest you have got. Pretty inspirational I'm sure, for your audience and of course for me. So I'm excited to have a conversation with you, especially given your background of unhiding or unearthing stories from each and everyone you've met. So Yep, all set for the for an hour ahead. Speaker 1 Alrighty, let's go. Let me. Before we talk about your life or your work, I want to ask you this. What does storytelling truly mean to you? And why do stories matter beyond marketing, content or aesthetics? Speaker 2 OK, that's, that's a very good question to start with. All right. So I think I'll, I'll give it to my parents to be honest with you, or should I say more of my upbringing where I got exposed to the idea about storytelling. My dad himself was first generation entrepreneur, extremely out of his time, extremely intelligent, but in my analysis about him as a son, I think he could have been far more successful than what he ended up being. But the one thing which I picked from him, especially during my growing up years, was the way he used to look at life, including his work and his losses, his relationships and his dreams and used to articulate them. Outstanding is the word and therefore there are like there is. That's the moment where I started picking things unknowingly. You'll be surprised, you know, when I was in class 11 or 12, he actually gave me a project to create something on education, on humanity. This is when I am 171617, which is the 199596 period. And he had this very, very out, like, I don't know, very, very nice. So that's a path breaking idea. He said that he will like all schools across the world to have one lecture on religion being given at the same time across the time zone differences. This I'm talking about in 959697 and as a result I love the idea and I wrote a full 1015 page report which I submitted to him. Speaker 1 Oh wow. Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's the way I started understanding the concept about thinking. So storytelling to me is actually about how you think. How do you articulate and then how do you present articulation and presentation with all honesty is extremely easier to pick because you can listen is the thinking that matters. So, so that's where I think storytelling started getting inculcated in my persona. That was one part, second part, of course, his love for movies, fanatic, fanatic, like, absolutely like. And you'll be surprised. Each movie we used to discuss like analysis. So I remember going with him to watch Om Shanti Om. We finished the movie, we came out with me, my friend and him and he's asking me, how did you find the movie? And I said I loved it. He absolutely rejected it. And then the best part was he used to give very logical reason. Then I remember we were watching this movie called Yarana. This is the days early in in model Town where we grew up. The family home was there, which is North Delhi. And the movie like we had an electricity failure. So we all waited out. So the electricity came back around 3:00 in the morning. We ended up watching that movie just to finish. Speaker 1 And the. Speaker 2 Next day I went to school, it came back and in the evening we had an analysis, what he like, what we did like, and that analysis was not like a very scientific analysis, it was just a discussion around that do. Speaker 1 You think he also felt like as a parent he had the sense like a responsibility of also kind of nurturing the thought process in you guys. Speaker 2 No, no, I think this was an individual who found real happiness in talking about movies, talking about ideas, talking about business journeys. It's just that we were his sons. He would have done the same with anyone in his ecosystem, right? So that was his role. And so it's like a indirect role of being a father that he was playing, but not a direct role. And at the same time, it was my mom who used to talk, who used to bring out stories through her hospitality with relatives, what to serve, how to serve, why to serve, why to look after someone, right? So effectively, if you look at it, everything is nothing but connecting the dots. How do you think was getting inculcated? And as a result, I started valuing and I still value communication has a very strong trait in people around me, be it family, friends, colleague, clients, associates. A lot of time I have been told that I I cross the intensity and I actually want to communicate a little more than required. And that's something which I'm working on. But then I do believe ability to think, articulate, communicate is all part of stories. And lastly, if you look at it, I think given that my mom had a religious side, the way parents, at least during that time, I don't know how it is happening now, were raising their kids was all through stories, right? And born in a Sikh family. So stories around Sikhism, Guru Nanak taking her to the gurdwara, trying to make us understand Gurbani, not that I understand. Likewise Ramayan and all so I mean we were surrounded in a non distracted world focusing only on stories and once like one story at a time. So hence the entire love for stories came out then has been part of my ability and I picked up marketing in my MBA. So that expose my like that allowed me to expose myself a lot more to advertising, branding, communication, positioning, all those concepts. So hence stories is something which I really enjoy. And I do believe that I like to think before I speak. I mean, a lot of my friends may not agree. So. So when you're thinking before you speak, then logically you're making a story. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean logically so, yeah. I mean, that's that's how I look at stories and that's how I yeah, I mean, maybe I want to add one more thing. I like to journal. So even when I'm journaling, a lot of times I actually ended up connecting the dots about incident that have happened in past. Because of it, I've reached where I am now. That can only happen when I'm finding some common underlying theme in those incidents or time period, right. Again, something which I will say is actually story. It's like tart middle and end. Speaker 1 Yeah, OK, perfect. There's something so powerful about the way you frame the entire answer because I think I think it moves storytelling away from performance and more towards responsibility. Which brings me to this, that you worked across industries, institutions, and individuals. What do all powerful stories have in common, regardless of whether they belong to a brand, a founder, or a human being? What do you think Navneet? Speaker 2 Oh, that's Yep, that's a pretty thought provoking question. So my understanding is that all good stories or great stories, or for that matter, all, all the clients I work with, for that matter, all individuals I interact with, right? They have a very similar expectation that it should leave an impact, something that leaves a good after taste, something that leaves a good thought for you to carry out, something that you really, really kind of, you know, you end up dissecting. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Right. Something that makes you think completely afresh and different. So all underlying stories is about that which is creating impact, creating influence, inspiring and all. And as a result, consistently good storytellers get, should I say, excuse me, get known because of that, right. Like that. You look forward to listening to them, whether on on a interview, whether on a podcast, whether in movies, whether in books. Yeah. And that consistency, is that. OK, There's something which I will take away either the way that person has written and it has touched my heart or whether that person has spoken something that has really opened my mind. So Yep. The common underlying theme is that it should leave a mark. All, all good stories, great stories, right? And leaving a mark, there has to be one part which is like a litmus test is that that story is telling something which is relatable to the audience, right? Like as human beings, those who are actively seeing spirituality or those who want to pass on the spirituality religion gives that religious books or manuscripts or whatever carry that story because if actually they're talking about human values. So all of us do remember them. Yeah. Likewise, likewise songs with the right lyrics, like movies, books, Yeah. They open your imagination. And yeah, even podcast, I'm pretty sure. Right. Like you must have heard that couple of your podcast. I've also heard they're they're incredibly well done. Speaker 1 Thank you. Speaker 2 Because effectively it's all about leaving that impact, right? There is depth, there is, there is a, there is an expected, there's an expected term which may come unexpectedly. Like I know that this thing has to come to some end. If the conversation, there has to be something which is logical and then it ends. And if it ends well, then of course, someone will always carry forward. Yeah. And in, in in today's digital age, of course, another aspect where stories come out is personal branding, how well someone actually present themselves, which is himself or herself, right. In, in form of influencers, in form of a leader, in form of an individual innovator, in form of someone who's writing a paper, say, on AI. Now those are very personal branding mediums. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Correct. There also the one of the parameters of success is how well they have given it depth. As a result, how well this connects with the audience and as a result the audience comes back and absorbs the story or the content. Speaker 1 Yeah, all of this boils down to the same thing that you said, that people who've been consistently doing well in storytelling, people, the audience always waits to listen to them because do you think that they've learnt the art of picking the pulse, right? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, and all stories inherently are, are simple, right? Like all stories. It's like, given that I'm a, I'm a, I'm a fan of movies and in a way that I like to watch a lot of movies. If I give that analogy, almost all the movies will have a very underlying common human emotion because of which they hit you and they become a success. And in case that emotion is there, but it's not crafted well, it does not hit you. Yeah, Yeah, Right. So, so it's very, very important that for anyone to, I mean, my understanding is for stories to go through, someone has to carry depth. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 And that of course, comes with, I don't know, with experience, upbringing. Maybe you're lucky to be born in an environment where such conversations are happening. Or maybe you'll get into an ecosystem of education, educational institution, where this is proactively taught. But critical thinking, meaningful thinking, definitely helps create a story, then be a story, and then you consistently play. Speaker 1 Perfect. Yes. Alright, so through this, what I've understood and what I'm hearing is that substance will always outlive surface, especially in a world that is accelerating every single second. Can AI Replicate Human Emotion in Storytelling? So now my next question to you, Navneet, is that we're living in a time where AI is reshaping how content is created. You did touch upon AI and how the wise and the knowledgeable people can play around with it, making sure that the Pearls is still retained. So how do you see AI impacting storytelling and where do you believe it can never replace human intent, ethics, or emotional truth? Speaker 2 So 2, three things are there. AI is is very new and still very nascent. I will speak purely with an experience of being in the storytelling field, which is by the act of profession and say exposure to technology. But at the same time, I also want to be very clear, putting a disclaimer, I'm not yet a very heavy user of AI, am seeing how it unfolds. So therefore whatever I'm going to say is a hypothesis more than the experience. So my hypothesis is that AI definitely there to stay. AI is can be a fantastic tool to fast track a lot of steps in the storytelling. As Elena, where AI is yet to prove is its ability to feel as human, to be conscious, to be adaptable to the different target audience that a professional company talks to a professional storyteller wants to reach out. I don't know. Are we still there that if tomorrow I'm writing an ad for a watch brand and after three months I'm writing a corporate film for technology company, can AI replace me? I have my doubts, but one thing for sure, I believe that AI can and will contribute significantly to storytelling. Now when I'm doing from to storytelling one, it can be a fantastic colleague to have in a small team. Speaker 1 Like a supporting. Speaker 2 Support you can have a brainstorming session as a result. Again, if you look at rather, if you think through the person interacting with the AI tool currently has to be fantastic when it comes to prompting and which means that prompt engineering or prompting again needs a lot of strong foothold of critical thinking because if I don't craft my brief, if I don't craft my question correct the AI, I'm assuming this AI is is already sorted. So I'm not talking to a base model of AI. I'm talking about the I'm talking to the right model. So if my, if my prompt is correct, I will get, I may get very good response and a conversation will start. But in case my prompt is not good, which is because of lack of practice, lack of depth of thinking, whatever, then of course, AI is nothing. But should I say is, is like now a dependable colleague, like a fresher in the team who is waiting for instructions. So I'm as a result, I'm waiting and I'm also should I say I'm seeing how AI evolves, but can it replace human beings? My guess is right now no. But at the same time, whatever I'm reading everywhere, there was this very long article I read 5000 word which apparently exploded on Twitter. It got almost 100 million views where it's saying that in next 6 months to one year or maybe 2 years, AI is going to replace a lot of industries. So my guess is if that is happening at that speed, then chances are that it may, it may have an impact on soul telling. But I will want to put a bet against it saying that it it can't replace the ability to feel. Even if it replaces the ability to think, right? It can't right now. I'm saying I don't know. I want to see whether it can bring regional nuances somewhere. I still feel AI is very English thinking and not if I use our desi thinking. Speaker 1 Have you used it and you felt it? Speaker 2 Absolutely. Rather as part of my work, I keep experimenting, writing different prompts at times when we get a new brief from a client or even for my personal need. So one experiment I do is I try different AI models. So I will try perplexity, I will try Jack GPT, I will try plot. Surprisingly three of them through a very different analysis. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 So in a way, it's going to add further complications to my ability to move fast because I'm yet to build trust on it. So we are under the we are in the process of making a new website. So what I did was I actually uploaded some of our UI UX pages and just ask them to analyse it given our background. So we are in the space of visual content creativity, look and feel and all right and colours and whatever. So just prompt, you'll be surprised. Perplexity loved our UI UX. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 Then it's a great coming soon page standing out. It's minimalist. It is this, this, this. Claude gave a completely opposite reaction. Complete opposite. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 Then this is missing this, this, this is this this You can add this, this this. Now what do I take away? Speaker 1 Yeah, this was actually my follow up question. Which of these do you take and which one do? Speaker 2 You take what I did was I finally went with what Claude said, not because I trust Claude more than perplexity, not because I trust perplexity. I trust perplexity less than Claude, but it was more about what I also found sensible as a right advice because it gave both of them gave very detailed answers. And that's again, I'm saying the underlying trade that will become even far more needed in in maybe in the decades to come in the post AI world is 2 things is the ability to think critical leave and all. And 2nd is taste. Because either of them cannot be idly both, but either of them, I don't think AI can actually have both of them to the extent needed. So AI in the world of storytelling, absolutely here to stay. But as a tool, yes, it can happen that right now, if suppose there's a team of five people, we may need only two people and the three people work is being done by AI, but it is still remain a tool. And with time, I'm assuming it will become even stronger and far more sure as a competent to contribute. But yes, it's ability to feel is something which I'm also very keen, should I say, as as an observer of life, I'm very keen to see how it unfolds or how, how how it anhydrates themselves itself. Speaker 1 OK, I like the way you've given the answer detailing every single aspect of what a human will feel and where do we see AI moving. So now I want to gently step away from technology and bring you towards a more personal side. Now, before the studio, before the clients there was home. Your parents were very different forces emotionally, intellectually and financially. Inheriting Logic, Hospitality, and High Standards from Parents What did you inherit from each one of them that still shows up in How You Live as well as lead today? Speaker 2 So yes, both my parents, my mom and dad were different individuals, which usually I think is the case with almost all, all families, right? They bring their own unique strengths and then they get passed on to, to the, to the children and, and, and and next generation. I think I took away a very strong sense of logical and rational thinking from my dad, including questioning the concepts of God and religion. And I took hospitality, large heartedness, and this ferocious focus on education from my mom. I think I'll remain incredibly grateful to both of them even when I heard some significant differences. And on your platform, I want to be honest with my dad as a father son dynamic. I yeah, yeah, yeah. It's taken me good amount of introspection, some amount of therapy and some amount of solitude to come to peace with respect to my dad's presence in my life. But while that's a different topic, coming back to specifically to your question. So yes, my dad was extremely logical, rational, independent thinker, far ahead of his time, had very different ways to look at life, very different. Like he was very encouraging when I said I would like to go for a haircut given I'm born in a Sikh family. And he was encouraging when I used to open up with him about say, say the girls I liked during my growing up years, my crushes. He was very encouraging to the extent he said I'm willing to walk with you and talk to the family. And he used to give advises that you should not delay whosoever you are bringing, no question asked. Let's go and let's go and talk to the family. Of course, in in you can say all of us want to be slightly more independent, especially at that age. So I said no, no, dad, I'll take care of it and all. So he was kind of that, that interestingly encouraging. Yeah. He was fond of. He had very good high taste, very high taste that reflects in the way you can say that you know like he he if as he had two life as an entrepreneur. One was in the space of iron and steel industry. He used to run these factories which unfortunately didn't work for different reasons. So then he reached He started business of interior designing when he was 50. Speaker 1 OK. Oh wow. Speaker 2 Yeah, with my elder sibling and of course it is when he was 50. I may be 2025, whatever age, right? And that's where I noticed his paste when it comes to interior designing furniture look and feel. And he had a very good creative bent of mind when especially when it came to thinking and writing. So this is what I take away from my dad. And what I take away from my mom is of course, like all mothers, mothers are the best, the the sweetest creation of God universe. So my mother had the same, carried the same trait which you associate with the mother. Very loving, very resourceful. I will call her like Pura proper Sikni, very very powerful, very strong. She did PhD in Hindi literature in 60s, a huge thing, very focused on education and extremely loyal partner to my dad. Extremely religious to a large extent. But and one thing which I have very like value in both my parents is large heartedness. Both of them of course never indulge in gossip. Never, never ever. That was both us. Speaker 1 I actually have questions. Separately, we're going to talk about this too. Speaker 2 Yeah, so no small talks at home, nothing. Both of them had a very different definition of ambition, of course. One was coming from a space of education, one was coming from a space of risk taking. But he was not a risk taker to the extended. He never encouraged me to take risk, to be honest with you, because he knew that chances for things not working out is much higher and it is a it can get extremely difficult a journey. But at the same time, he had his own way of showing encouragement. So yeah, I think fortunate to experience very different kind of parenting, especially when it comes to my dad. Maybe I would have liked him to be a far more responsible husband, father and a family man. But then the lineage that I'm living with from him, from his side, I don't think I will like to ever replace it with anything else. So yeah, I'm extremely grateful. Speaker 1 Alright, perfect. Now I felt. Don't you feel like it's very interesting how we carry our parents, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously, into boardrooms and creative rooms as well? And sometimes what we inherit isn't just a personality, it's also a circumstance. Which brings me to the next question. How Financial Turbulence Shapes Ambition and Self-Worth You grew up around financial instability for more than two decades. How does that kind of uncertainty wire an individual, especially around safety, self worth, and the idea of enough? Your thoughts? Speaker 2 So yes, as a family and we are we were a family of six people which is 3 brothers and I'm the middle brother parents and my grandma my dad's mom. So we grew up like we stayed used to stay together till say 2012. Reason I'm saying is because they were like we lost each one of them in subsequent some intervals and all. So growing up, my memory is that there was always some financial concern and turbulence either way one way or the other, loss in business loss loss suffered because of some really, really stupid immature decisions. But with all due respect, because there's a learning in that. So it does hit you. I'm also in in a culture where you come from, which is wherein I mean, people now don't like it, but we're showing off and bragging is your key to should I say, to key to even getting respect unless you don't show yourself to be moderately successful, forget to go. A lot of people, including your own relatives, may like to find ways to stay away from you, right? So this is one part which of course you only realize when you reach a certain age. And I'm, I'm by the way, not a big fan of that. I mean, but at the same time, I also want to not come across as someone that who doesn't understand that, you know, that was a need of that art. I'm talking about 90s. I'm talking about early 2000. The idea about corporate world working salary had not stepped in. It was still growing. I'm talking about my, where I came from, my ecosystem. I'm not commenting on anything else. Dad had a side of, you know, being a business guy and, and so therefore he always wanted to carry a certain image in the world. And as a result, when things are not working out, he still wanted to keep it intact. And that was his. His. Speaker 1 Operating style. Speaker 2 Yeah, his operating style, maybe his operating system, you know, all of us have any operating system. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Right that the annulment was different, the avenues to reinvent was different and also I realized which is my learning now is that at what stage and age you suffer a loss also defines the flexibility which which you can restart. So if you're facing a loss in. Speaker 1 20s It depends. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you face a loss in 20s, if you face a loss in 30, if you face a loss in 50s, very different. By the time you reach 50 or above, your ecosystem is set most of the time. Mostly I'm saying so you have to operate according to the ecosystem as an afterthought. One can always say that your ecosystem was not right, wrong. You could have changed, blah, blah, blah. But then I'm just saying the broad principle is that that, you know, the life stage in which you are having one, what loss and what kind of loss, how much, right? So all those things play a big role, right? So you can't take away that. So because of this entire idea about having financial laws in a society where how you your standing gives you that confidence and respect because of which you can continue building did have its own impact on each one of us very differently. It you know, as as growing up kids, you will always say that I want ABCD or I want to take a trip or I want to, you know, buy something and all so your parents will very respectfully, even they are not trained by the way, being very honest. They'll also find ways of saying that that possible, right. It's only afterwards you decide. So then it starts hitting you OK, that is there something wrong with us as a family that we can't do what our people are doing around us? Is there something wrong that we're asking or we're demanding right. That was 1. And secondly, which is a big learning, I want to share that just like you have a lineage which gets passed on, there is also generational ideas and definition of worth, money, respect. That also gets passed on at times as trauma and as at times that lineage. So I think I drew the definition of what is worth from my parents, especially from my dad. So before I could have reached a stage of finding an independent voice of what my worth is. I believe that applies to all, at least North Indian kids. If I can say. I mean because my exposure is to North India lifestyle only, right? That our definition of work is actually said by our parents more than our school. I'm talking about them. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So how your parents react to losses, failure, disappointments, gets passed on to you versus how your parents talk openly with yours, with you and your other siblings that OK, we're going through a rough path, we'll come out of it. How they become that change model that they are willing to make some significant changes so that family remains stable and all right, that can have an impact. So as a result, before you find your voice, your, your work is getting created by someone else. So yes, therefore, in that financial turbulent time, like for example, I remember I did not know my, my younger brother told me this, that so he carries this pointed my, my mom used to love me more than him. So that's an inside joke. But so I said, why do you say he said no? She always wanted to, you know, keep an eye on you once because because of our financial situation, we could not afford to buy new clothes. And she knew that I like to buy new clothes and all, so she used to take special care and ironing my clothes so that they look as new and as fresh to the extent possible. Speaker 1 Thank. Speaker 2 God, right? So I'm just saying, of course, I will say God being kind. I think the biggest gift now when I look back at life is pure and pure education, focus that I got for my mom and life lessons that I got for my dad, which are extremely valuable. One thing I want to add which can go, which is in a way answering your previous question, one value that I saw in both my parents and I still carry, which actually was told to me by my younger brother, Three of us, we have three brothers. I said we have high, high, very high work ethics that actually came from our parents because as I said, it was never a culture of gossiping. It was never a culture of small talk. It was always about hard work and education, hard work and education, hard work and education, right? Not cutting corners, not going outside the the correct route. To the extent you know, if you're making a commitment and deliver, if you have to put in double the hours, even if you're not getting the value, go out like so that was there. So yes, so the financial turbulence impacted a lot in terms of confidence. How do you present yourself? How do you talk to people around you? More so when you are going to a pretty reputed and if I say affluent school, I saw I went to Delhi public school. How do you handle the ecosystem there? Yeah, because you're surrounded by people who come from different lifestyles, different family, but almost everyone is coming from certain level of effluency. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So. Speaker 2 How do you balance, right? How do you balance? And then of course, it start building into your psyche. But but yeah, I will say like it's a beautiful lesson to have lived. And yes, I do believe that worth of course, is not an issue anymore now, at least with me, that self worth and all. And yeah, again, absolutely no complaints at all with respect to the environment I grew up in, and of course to the parents I grew up with. Speaker 1 Alright, perfect. So couple couple words that stuck with me. Money, loss, pressure, sometimes tension. They don't shape how we learn, speak, and we pick from the environment around right? Which makes this next piece even more fascinating. Why Deep Conversations Outweigh Small Talk and Gossip Now, you've shared that your family didn't engage in small talk or gossip as we've been talking, only substance. How did growing up in that environment shape the way you value conversations now? We heard about your work ethic, but how? How did that simmer up the conversations that you pay attention to? Speaker 2 See, pick up the first negative impact of growing up in an environment like that. You end up being a mistake in 99% of the ecosystem. I'm saying this with absolute consciousness and all my experience that you look forward to deeper meaningful conversations, connections, but then you don't get that often absolutely right. Exactly so. So as a result, what you do and what you go through is you you find your own rhythm one, and you don't find your rhythm at the same age at with people around you may be finding which is defined by the world, right? You may not find, as my favorite is you don't. You may not find music to your lyrics when the world had already started playing full songs. You may find it little late. If I say I'm not talking from a comparison, but I'm talking from a very basic social construct, right? Like, but then you do find if you stay, stay convinced and have conviction that OK, right, like that small talk, gossipy conversations, trivial conversations to let's say haggling versus negotiation, right? All the thing you start finding very shallow. So the way is that you stay put, you experience different ecosystem and you start curating and therefore start finding people with whom you relate. And in case you find those far lesser still absolutely stay calm. Because like this logically, if you don't bring your best game whenever you meet someone. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Or even before that, if you don't bring your best game to yourself, you are actually disrespecting the life you've been gifted, the time you have. So if I have half an hour, why would I not want to spend at half an hour doing something meaningful which could be nothing but sitting by myself, going for a walk, maybe watching some movie, listening to some music, or finding friends or finding an activity which keeps me happy and occupied and fulfilled? Then actually picking up the phone and talking to some, you know, some people who believe in this concept and that's an inside joke, which is, you know, how do you find people who have who are shallow? They always say horde, thus like Orbital isn't. Speaker 1 That a regular policy. Speaker 2 Sorry. Speaker 1 It is a regular in every conversation, right? Like most. Speaker 2 No, but then that's not a sign of a very clear minded person who has death, right? Because like logically, if I'm calling, for that matter, I'm speaking with you on phone. If we have nothing to speak, then that's better to hang up, right? Say after 30 seconds, for example, if I'm on my way, I'll see you in 10 minutes. Or it has been long. We haven't spoken in six months. I thought I'll just give you a call. So what's happening now when I say what's happening, there are two ways. 1 is that you will also give me some really thoughtful answer and as a result we both will be emerged and we'll have the Commission going on all the other ways that. So I'm saying I'm connecting you after six months. So I thought I'll check with you what's happening. And then you saying that nothing, same old nothing, but just busy with work life so. Speaker 1 Which is like, you just, yeah, like move away. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then effectively you are showing that the other person I'm speaking the phone and calling. Yeah, right. And you are not responding, say cheerfully, happily. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, you're not. Speaker 2 Right. Effectively so. Therefore, the DESI way of saying this is that orbital. Speaker 1 Orbital. Speaker 2 Orbital is like bus or somebody or good. So I have a couple of close friends. I'll be honest with you when I say close means they've been closed from a space that they're my long, long tenured friends, like long lasting friendship. And whenever I ask them, they always says what's happening, nothing much. So then I'll ask them, OK, what's happening on work? So then they will say that nothing Worked hard, lost a contract, gained a contract. Last quarter was good, bad quarter this. But when they ask me what's happening, I like to give a detailed answer because that's how you make the other person feel that OK, I value you. Yeah. You not open up with everyone, right? Speaker 1 True that, but I also listen. I agree with what you're saying, but I also sometimes feel that I have a slightly different thought process also here because a lot of times when talk to my friends and I keep saying acha orbata acha, what else? So that's also my way of saying, OK, I don't want to end the conversation. We've had meaningful chat still, but what else? What else? Let's feel more or less, let's go. Speaker 2 More. Yeah, absolutely. But then effectively the fact that in your case you're saying you had meaningful conversations one and after that you want the Commission to continue. Speaker 1 So. Speaker 2 Yeah, or extending and therefore you're finding ways. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, you're. Speaker 2 Finding ways, yeah. You're finding ways to have a deeper conversation on different topics, right? Like, so in a way, you're corroborating what I'm saying. And hence, when you grow up in an environment where there are conversations around religion and God, like my dad used to do their conversation around say success education, you know, should I say coming, coming among the toppers of school like what my mom used to do. There are never people low talk. There's never about this concept around hard work and all, then all logically, you will grow up with a bone of deeper thinking and you will always either look for that. And in case not, it's very naturally come out in your work. By the way, it will first comes out in your work, then it comes out in relationships and all right, the way you approach even a small presentation or because I have, I have operate in the creative communication industry. So even the way you create a proposal or or make a static, it will come out there, right. Attention, retail, thinking deeply, thinking differently, It becomes part of your second nature. So whether in personal relationship and work, it comes out. And that's actually both the poor and bane growing up in a in a in a ecosystem or in a family where everything was discussed except low, small or cheap talks. Good thing everyday. Oh absolutely. I would not want anyway it it to be in any other way. Speaker 1 Yeah. All right. OK, well, slightly tilting now. How Being an Underdog Fuels Ambition and Survival At some point every child becomes aware of how the world sees them. And I'm sure this happened with you to nominees now. And I'm what I also felt while we were doing some research and we also had some chat, that you've often described yourself as an underdog. Now, when did that feeling first crystallize, and how did it shape your ambition and inner narrative overtime? Speaker 2 So honestly, I don't, I, I get your question if you allow me to say I don't think, I don't how to put, I would not like to describe myself as an underdog. What I'm trying to say is that anyone in my place will be an underdog. It's like this. So case in point, as I said, financial turbulence. We like dad had to shut down his work. We had a home in in Delhi. We sold at home. Then we shifted to Gurgaon. In that financial turbulent journey, mortgaged a lot of our other assets. Then, of course, you know, struggling with respect to self worth, figuring out your own standing not only as an individual but as a representative of the family. Just giving you another context. I remember when I got my first job, one of my relative told me later on that my parents are very happy because I got a job with some American MNC in the marketing research space. And it became like a, you know, yeah, it became like a bragging for my father saying that OK, because my businesses were not doing well or they were being set up, but it was still business. And suddenly one of his sons, and it's something to do with me. I'm saying anyone in our place would have been my place. Any of the children joining an American MNC, that was the term they used to suddenly made them feel proud. And you know that license to enter any room with confidence, like a chin up moment. While I know for almost all my friends, this was business as usual. It's like you've got a job, you did MBA, you got placed and you're starting working first back in almost all the people I know. I mean, that's what I took away during my, especially during my MBA, that they came from far more financial stable families. I mean, that's what they projected. So for them also this was like an extension. So while we're doing well as a family, glad we found a job, even if we don't want a job. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Right. Because like. Speaker 1 Step wise progression. Speaker 2 Right, Yeah, In my case, this was a leap. I like the way you said it was a progression for them. It was a leap. So this underdog thing is deeply instilled. I think it also was instilled in my dad, given that he grew up in extremely difficult situation. He lost his father when he was nine years of age, and it was him and his his mom struggled throughout, right. And whatever dynamics were there during his time, so as a result for him to become successful, pastor was always there and he tried, failed, tried, failed in different things and that has got passed on to us. So as a result, the idea that we have to build something from scratch got inbuilt. And anyone who's trying to build something from scratch, in my eyes, is underdog. You don't expect, but they are competing. They're fighting, they're fighting. It'll be, I'll be honest with you, underdog kite trait. Or that even when they're doing well, they're effectively still fighting for survival. Speaker 1 It's a psyche. Speaker 2 It's a psyche, absolutely. It's a psyche because even after losing parents, things had there, I mean in my life, they were still very topsy turvy. I, I left my job, of course parents were not there. I started what I'm doing, which is unhide, it's completely from scratch, bootstrap, all those things. Also it's in our industry, which is not from, I'm not from this industry. I'm from a research and consulting background and I'm getting into the creative zone of photography, videography, branding and all right, So that also was an add on. Now, why did I do this? I don't know, maybe it's part of my psyche. I always wanted to do something on my own that was there. And then there were multiple other personal aspects that happened which were, of course, definitely not encouraging. Some of them are disappointing. Some of them had rejection or should I say were rejection. So all this was just adding on to think that OK, no matter where I am in my life, it's a survival for which I'm going to fight. And I'm going to fight till the last day, till the last breath, whatever you want to say. And I'm not saying this from a speech of being traumatic. I'm saying this from a space that this is my second nature. This is something which either I have seen or heard, like I'm deeply inspired by underdog stories that actually riches from a failure to success in my capacity. I've also been massively bullied in school. I've been very comfortably left out, you know, or isolated by my own group of friends. And even within my broader ecosystem of family, I've been called out. I've been, I mean, some of some very mean things have been said and all right. Speaker 1 This, this is my next question, by the way. But you, you feel that. But wait, Navneet, I'm going to hold you right here. When we're still on the underdog part. I want to know. So I've heard about the inner dialogue and the psyche that's been in you and how you see things. How does that impact ambition, so to say? Speaker 2 As I said, I think it comes directly that it's like basically the fight for survival, except that survival is is de facto. It's like your it's like your default state. Do you want to do well and then you do well and then you want to do well, do well. It's definitely not coming from a space of greed. I'll tell you that's one of myself talks self mantra. I don't want to be greedy but I want to be hungry. But 8 underdog is hungry, always. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Always. Speaker 1 There's a positive side to it, right? Speaker 2 Always hungry till the last day, right? But and therefore that differentiates another dog from someone who is not underdog. And that is what I'm coming to that there is always a hunger to do well. That was that came very clearly that came in my dad also who till his last day was trying to make a mark or create his reputation or earn his respect something or the other was always there again, I'm saying not the best route that was taken, but that's an afterthought. That's a learning where he deserves credit is the fact that he had no one to bounce his ideas off, which is what I've told you right. So as a result, if you're isolated, if you don't have close knit family, then who do you go to? You start taking decisions on your own and some false. I'm not. I'm lucky that OK, I had my dad who I saw growing up. I had my mom who I saw growing up. I had my elder brother and younger brother. So as a result, I have sudden sense of things which I should not, should not do. So when you look at all these things, underdog is the ability to keep fighting. Now I'm not fighting, by the way, to earn my worth or prove myself. Now I'm fighting. If I use that word, I don't. I mean, now I'm fighting actually just to ensure my potential is used to the last drop. You know, when you're on a journey from growing your work, the next step is that you realize, OK, there is potential. There are certain gifts, there is some intelligence. You have some skills, Better use it. Yeah, Yeah. Better use it to make a life for yourself. Maybe make your lineage proud, your ancestors proud. If you have a family, make your family proud. If you have shareholders, make your shareholders proud. But better use your and your team's potential to the T So I'm in that phase now, and therefore I'm saying I'm hungry. And of course, I'm extremely happy being ambitious. Speaker 1 Alright, good. Thank you and thank you for going into so many details. And also just want to say that so many layers that were peeling into your personal life, it's heavy. So I sincerely appreciate you being honest and sharing every little detail. It's a lot. So that's why I want to say that I really appreciate you going into the depth and telling us all the stories. Speaker 2 Thanks. I think, I think I'll have to give it to you. You're making it comfortable and safe for me to, you know, contribute. And also it is the way one should be right when, especially when you're coming on a podcast, being authentic as much as possible. Speaker 1 Yeah, OK, Bringing you back to those days when you were bullied. The Impact of Bullying on Identity and Self-Perception My question is, you were bullied early for identity, appearance and eventually a label that stuck, right. What does it do to an individual when a name becomes a personality imposed on them? How would those? Speaker 2 You start you, you start believing that, OK, you are that. And that's a sad, sad reality. I'm talking about 90s and 80s when school bullying was normalized, right? Being like being called out names or labels, right? It was normalized. It was part of being the cool gang, being part of the cool gang or excuse me, or the cool culture. And then add to that, you come back home and you know that there are family, family. So that's a lack of family awareness about how to handle this. So then you start, you start believing, not the labels or the word, but you start believing lack of strength. And how do you fight it? How do you, if I use a word, give it back and then add to it that even people around you start people around you with whom you say share a good relationship. You had a good, should I say friendship. If they all just start believing in those things, then you start acting that just to, you know, avoid abandonment. So you start sticking out because in the end you have to navigate, right? You have to navigate and you have to find your footing. Sometime it is easy to find footing, sometime it takes time. I think in my case, I will say that it's taken it's own sweet time and realizations at my end. Yeah, which is about breaking away from the patterns. Well, but it does hit your confidence. I will not deny I'm I'm if I use a word, I'm extremely uncomfortable and against the idea of about bullying, giving names and labels say I'm extremely uncomfortable with body shaming. I'm very uncomfortable and people make fun of someone's inability to pronounce or speak proper English. You know, because all those things are coming from a space of entitlement or false sense of superiority, right? So I'm, I'm very uncomfortable with that, not only because I have been on the receiving end, but I also feel it's not a sign of a civil society. If I can say you, you can, you can still have fun, but you don't have to mock someone to get fun because then then it's not right. Then you especially what you're saying is that I'm going to have fun at the expense of someone else's identity. Logically doesn't make sense. Speaker 1 If I may ask you right now, from the days when you were buried in the school and when you knew that the support system was also trying to understand and process and react, respond in the best of their abilities to now I probably know it's not going to happen, but in case it does, would you want to call out the system? How would your reaction differ from the days back then? Speaker 2 No. So couple of things are there. How someone treats you, Yeah, is not a Is is as much prevalent in growing up years as it is prevalent right now in adulthood, by the way. Speaker 1 Really. Speaker 2 Of course, anyone I mean the new age concept that we keep hearing about gaslighting and narcissistic abuse is nothing but it's bullying only, right? It's just that it's bullying as adults, what was being bullied, how you are being bullied by a friend or by a group of people in school. The parallel to is that how you are treated when you grow up, which now in today's day and age under the growing phenomena, mental health is being called abuse are identical. So give it that context and answering your question directly. I call out, I distance myself, I detach myself and I'm at the same time, I'm also sure that I've also must have been unfair to quite a few people in my life. So it's not that I've only been on the receiving end, right? I've also in my realization, I have gone ahead and apologized to quite a few people, even when they were not expecting and even when I'm not in touch with them because that's my realization that it's not right. And it's like the pattern has to end. The cycle has to be broken. So it's only when I sought forgiveness and I gave, I like, I, I, I offered my apologies. It's when I got my confidence back that therefore I will also not allow that to happen to me. Yes. So I call out. I call out, I watch, I walk away, I distance myself, I detach, or I become a different person, right? And the way is that you cut or you reduce your access, which you can't do with all honesty, whatever the world said, which is very difficult, extremely difficult growing up, which is cutting access. Because no matter what, you are in a captive environment, right? You have to go to the same school, sit with the same classmates in the same section. Speaker 1 But I also feel like I think a lot of it has also to do with the fact that that that realization, that awareness, that clarity also comes with age if your support system. Yeah, right. Yeah. Speaker 2 But having said that, I also believe it does not come with age. I, I will differ with you on that. It does not. I have, I have known so many people who are continuing to exhibit the same patterns that they exhibited growing up. So they will act entitled. I know so many people, they will act for, no, for lack of word, they will try to act superior, right? But then I don't think it comes with it. No, I think it comes with a deep sense of reflection. It comes with, if you're lucky that, you know, you entered a zone of solitude because when you face yourself, that's when you understand all these things. Or when you face losses, you know, it's only around during that time that, OK, you have a chance to reflect on how you were and how things were. Yeah. I don't know if that answers if this answers the question you were looking for. Speaker 1 It is OK, alrighty, OK. I feel like you and I can probably sit for like 3-4 hours. We'll have these conversations going on and on. Speaker 2 Absolutely, yeah. But I would like if I if there's an interval so that I can go ahead and have some Chai or make some Chai. Confronting Pain and Rebuilding Self Through Therapy Alright, moving on to another topic, which is we're going to talk about therapy and inner work. Now there's a moment in adulthood where we either repeat patterns like you just mentioned. Some people do not get the awareness that they've been repeating patterns or you confront them. In your case, you chose confrontation. You chose therapy, not briefly, but deeply, and that too for five years. What changed when you stopped intellectualizing pain and started sitting with it? This is probably one of the deepest questions I felt. Speaker 2 So Eka, I've realized that I'm a very curious person and I also feel my curiosity is not around intellectual academic topics. My curiosity stems again as a lineage value. I relate everything in my life to my parents. So my curiosity comes from my dad because he also had a way of asking questions because he wanted answers. So as a result, I've always been curious. Something's happened in my personal life around 2018, which kind of, you know, were not as pleasant as I would have liked. And because it was happening within the close knit ecosystem, I had no place to go to seek answers. Usually when when something happens outside of your ecosystem or in the extended ecosystem, you will always go back to your parents, your life partner, your immediate family. You will find ways or answers or tools to face it and manage it. In my case, it happened in a extremely close and ecosystem and that left me completely isolated, abandoned and lonely. In a. Right now I'm absolutely talking in a very non emotional manner. So I want I don't want this to be seen from a melodrama or dramatic. So then I came with this again, logical conclusion that I who is the person who I can reach if I answers to what I'm feeling, what I'm going through. And hence I went to a therapist and I would like you to find a good therapist. And I continued for five years. I think around 2018 is when I started and then continued in that. I think therapy was both a life changer and a game changer for me, given that I found answers not only to what I was going through, but how I feel a lot of the, I found a lot of tools to manage my inner strength or to discover my inner strength and, and I went kind of, you know, I started rebuilding myself. I started taking a lot of difficult decisions, perceivably difficult decisions. I started trusting myself. I, I started taking one day at a time and I kind of built rebuild, built rebuild broker, built rebuild broker like that. So where I sit today, of course, I'm in a far better, more balanced, more confident space than ever. Sure about a lot of things, including, you know, God forbid if I have to face again a difficult situation, which of course is a part of human life. So I can't stay away. The only thing I can hope and I'm sure everyone can hope is that to have the tools and one of them is the inner strength more than the external tools, which is usually the tangible thing that we talk about. So if yours, if you can build your inner strength mentally, physically, emotionally, then chances are that ability to, you know, the resilience comes up, which is ability to bounce back. At least that confidence that you can bounce back happens whether you're able to bounce back or not. No one can. No one can predict, right? But being confident, no, I can bounce back. I've gone through this. I will come out of it that self talk changes by the myself talk change completely, completely. Earlier it was lost week. It lacked it came from a space of inadequacy. Now it comes from a space of extreme confidence That is 1 the ability that I can break generational patterns, the ability I love. One thing that my therapist say, and I want to share it with your audience, that let's not borrow thoughts. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 All of us have, we don't realize, but a lot of us think not as individually, but as as a deeply impacted member of the family or the tribe. So a lot of our thoughts are not independent even when we feel that independent. That's one. I also realized something happened because of which I took a decision of disengaging with my family for almost 4-5 years. So when I disengaged the first month, I realized that I had a lot of other voices in my mind of people from my close knit environment, then my own. And that was creating far more fear than any sense of little surety that, OK, there's an adventure which lies ahead, let's take it that was not there. It was all about fear that if I take this step, I will fall. If I fear this, if I take this step, there's something wrong in case I fail and the voice is there. See, I told you you'll fail. See, you were always like this. Now, every other voice was there in me except my own voice, which is when I disengaged and I started my journey again. I call it as a second life. And I continued with my therapy and all. And now of course, as I said that a lot of things have have fallen in place, a lot of things are falling in place, and I'm sure a lot of things will fall in place. I will recommend every single person therapy and proper therapy, not just touch and go, not to Instagram or WhatsApp therapy, but proper therapy. If you're lucky, please find a therapist before you find a gym trainer. A lot of us don't want to go and do the inner work, but we want to do the outer work, which is how we look, how we feel. But yes, I do believe that both are equally important, which is the physical training and the mental training. Speaker 1 Perfect. All right. How about I bring you now to the entrepreneurial chapter, but with everything that I've kind of understood about you, OK, Because I want to understand more about Unhide now. From Photography to Visual Storytelling: The Unhide Journey So what is the story behind starting Unhide and why that name? What were you trying to reveal, reclaim or protect? Tell us everything. Speaker 2 So yeah, thanks. Anad is basically, as you already said, is a visual content brand or a studio where we work directly with clients to create content mostly for the digital world. So we do a lot of video content, advertising content, film content, we do a lot of branding content, we do a lot of designing content and we do a lot of photography content. OK. It started as a very deep desire of doing something on my own. I tried couple of times in the past during my cooling days and even during my graduation, post graduation, nothing was happening. And I think that also again came because I will grew up in a family where we were always talking about something or the other with respect to business. So that idea about doing something on my own was always there. So is that that, I think maybe almost 910 years ago, I reached out to a couple of my friend who were doing amateur photography and I told him that why are people buying painting and why are they not buying photography? Because that's always, always the case, right? I don't know, 2011, 2012 And then we guys caught up, we met and that's when the name got decided called Unhidden, which later on changed to Unhide. Because unhidden or unhide effectively means that through photography you can see anything without going. So today I can see any large scale historical structure in a country where I may not be able to go because photography revealed it or as we say, photography unhides it. So that's how the start the journey started and I started as a as a partnership between me and a friend from my graduation. Then later on he had a personal situation because of which he decided to discontinue. And he was a photographer, the amateur photographer who wanted to do the photography and he was very good in his art, very good. While I was a guy who was trying to market, do branding, have conversations. I'm also part of an exhibiting artist. So I've exhibited almost 1012 times as part of a night when it was the two member team. So then he decided to discontinue as because of a personal situation. So then again I was facing a situation wherein it's been 1 1/2 years of me. It happened after 1 1/2 years of me quitting. So and this friend decides to quit in a very rightful and a respectful manner and I was again facing a situation. Should I go back to my work and job because I was happily employed and I was enjoying my work in the corporate world, or should I continue? So that's when I thought and I wrote somewhere I like to journal, I like to write. I wrote that if I go back, then what will happen is cliches will win. One cliche will be that I told you he'll fail. Second, what was the need to quit when it he could have easily carried out as a weekend hobby? Third, now with his partner gone and of course the fact that his family also had unsuccessful business attempt, right? What was the need to even get into business? How will he get married and all those things? But then I came to a conclusion that I don't want the cliches to win one. I don't want my career to be dependent on someone else's career choice because there's no guarantee, right? Like if tomorrow I start something with someone else, now that person is unable to discontinue, then what is it saying? It's simply saying that I'm not independent and hence I decided to continue and I started reconnecting, building, rebuilding, whatever you want to say, finding my rhythm back. Of course, there was a long period of zero to negligible revenue and therefore hardly any profits. And all those things like I think roughly there was a period of six months where I only did a business of ₹3,00,000. This is ₹50,000 a month, so maybe I was getting, I was saving only 20 K because I was paying off fees to the photographer, videographer and all. So. So from that perspective, if I look at it, it's been a very fruitful journey. I wanted to keep it bootstrapped. I wanted to work directly with clients because then that allows us to understand, learn, grow, deliver. I didn't want to go through mediator, bigger company which is getting us project. So that was always there deeply inspired by Apple Story. Then of course, at the same time, I also wanted to ensure that I keep my approach if as a frugal so I don't expand my team. And I'd was after my partner or my friend left the partnership and I'd stayed like a one man army if I can say or a sole proprietorship completely sole sole founder for almost 4 years. Speaker 1 Wow. So this is very OK. I do have a question. I've got touch. Yeah, please. Speaker 2 Please please. Speaker 1 But well, firstly, thank you for sharing all the details about Unhide and the entire story behind it. I want to know that it started as photography and like you're mentioning, it evolved into a full spectrum visual storytelling studio. Yeah. Adaptability and Perseverance: The Core of Unhide's Growth Question is what state constant while everything else was changing? Speaker 2 OK, that's I think that's a very good question. Seriously, what state constant was is that underdog spirit that I have to overcome my past perception and failure that von nihalpaya von nihalpaya uska Sani talpaya iska sanihalpaya nai yeh moka Femi melega. So that was always like the self talk or the fact that as I said that I carried a lot of self, a lot of inadequate self worth or low self worth. So if I would have gone back, it would have only got stamped right. It would have hit confidence and all. Also, to be honest with you, I don't think I today I can say I don't think I even had a luxury to accept failure. There was no nothing because with like the dynamics between me and my siblings, especially with yeah, I mean was not as smooth as I would have liked, especially when I was setting up on height. So therefore, if I would have failed, I did not want to, not them also. But there was a perception that unfortunately my dad had created about me. And there's a reason I was saying that as a son, I had significant differences with my dad, right? There was a perception he created while I was growing up that again, was part of the label that got attached. So there was a label getting attached at home and in school, and then there was a label that got attached at home. So now when I look back, I was actually trying to fight just a reason to exist type, you know, like because growing up, you're always, whether we agree or not, you are dependent on your caretakers, on your elders, specially if they say that if if an elder say that you can't do it, it will become the voice till your last day. Yeah. Or if your elder says in a very condescending, sarcastic manner, while it may be normalized as a fun comment, saying in a very desy way, I'll say that, yeah, something like that, right? It may come from whatever space, but it gets instilled as part of yours. So now I'm starting a business. My partner leaves. If I would have gone back again, I said, the cliches would have won. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 I did not want to definitely. I just said that name. I'm going to make whatever happens. Whatever happens, I have to make it work. And yeah. And as a result, I will say like that happened, then a lot of divine intervention kept happening. I mean, I, I can't take away the fact that there's a huge role of divine in my journey that happened. So that kept that was just constant. What can changing. Yet every second month kept changing. New people, new experiences, new disappointment, new rejection, new delay, some success, some. When something happened, I remember in April of 2015, it was, it had been six months when my partner had left and I did just a business of 3,00,000. I had almost projects worth 7,00,000 rupees ₹8,00,000 proposals, proposals, every single thing got dejected. They'll put off something like that. So I was sitting with my family, which is my, yeah, my own ecosystem, my siblings. And then they had said that it's OK, it's not part of the destiny. Why don't you go back, join, join your workplace and give it a shot. After one or two years, three years, yeah, you may find, you may get married and all those things, whatever you want to say. Exactly. At that moment I realized that I was not getting that inner calling, that it's time. I still wanted to give it a shot. I absolutely wanted to give it a shot like and I remember I was in touch with a client. It was like for 18 months I was trapped chasing them thing work. They do work big. They opened up the they gave me a brief in May of 2015 and they asked me to submit almost 11 proposal, 11 iterations of that proposal. I was like, although I threw my specs once, I just banged my this by when, which is May, then June, July, August. And on a very lighter note in August. I remember I had my birthday the first week I called up my client. I see, just like that. Maybe that was another creative call I picked growing up saying that, hey, listen, just want to tell you it's my birthday today. He said OK and he said happy birthday. I said, do you mind if I ask for a birthday gift? So he said yeah, what is it you have? And this is a client I'm talking to, by the way. He said what? I said I just need APO of that project I've been pitching. He said what are you saying? You haven't received it? I've already given a go ahead. I said OK, but I'm yet to receive any intimation, any PO any formal, go ahead. He said, Jalodiya, something like that. And this is how then? Things started looking up because this was a massive big project that I had got right, Massive big project. So this is effectively something which kept changing my ability to have different experience and then adapt myself. This is a very important thing which I believe is is critical but is not talked a lot. People talk a lot about resilience, but resilience is nothing but disguise adaptability. Speaker 1 I'm going to say this time again, resilience is not but disguised ability. Speaker 2 No, no, Resilience is nothing but disguised, disguised adaptability. Speaker 1 Disguised adaptability. Speaker 2 Because things will never remain the same outside. Yeah, and there will be far more. By the way, there are far more lows than highs. Speaker 1 Yeah, so. Speaker 2 In 100, in 100, if I say 100 is a unit, there will be 9596 lows and just maybe 2 highs and one stagnant. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So unless you don't adapt yourself or the other word which is in the corporate lingo, the agility, right being agile, I don't think you can respond to the changing circumstance in the most optimum manner. Speaker 1 Sure, but you think agility, adaptability, all of these adjectives that you're saying, you're talking about how you were fine tuning the situations you were in. But I want to highlight or probably wanna tell you, I don't know how much you've given yourself credit for sticking around with that inner belief. And the voice said you're not done when you could have picked up the easier route that didn't get highlighted as much. And I thought I should bring the emphasis there. Speaker 2 I don't know whether I would like to right now if created to myself one of course. Thank you so much for saying what you just said. I will genuinely still want to believe that it was. See, it's a mix of many things to happen for you to survive. Forget success, success of different ways, right? As I said, definitely divide intervention, definitely. I attribute almost everything in my life to my mom's values, blessings, upbringing, being born to an incredible intelligent man like my dad, definitely having an extremely supportive ecosystem to the extent possible with both my siblings, elder and younger, right? And then yes, you're right, my love for the idea about work. I just love working, by the way. I don't see this as different thing. It's just calm. It's like, you know, well, I'm going to. Speaker 1 Interject and actually say this. I've seen when we were sitting for dinner and you got a call and the way you were responding and talking at the wee hours didn't really show that you were talking to a colleague. It was more like having a good chatty conversation over a weekend. Speaker 2 With yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So therefore, I'm just saying that a lot of things have to fall in place for you to enjoy the right, contribute to the right. So that's that's what I'm coming to. Whether I'm born with this, not whether it was possible as a lineage, whether I've acquired this skill, I don't know. I really don't know. Speaker 1 But what I actually wanted to say, and I'm still going to say it again, a lot of people when they are on that threshold that things aren't working, you have an easy route. Not many even get the awareness. Not people. Some people are not even able to hear that inner voice. Where are they tilted? So I wanted to highlight the fact that you heard it at the right time, chose to stick around with it, and then came adaptability, agility and everything. Speaker 2 Sure. I mean, I simply say thank you, I appreciate you saying this, but I do believe I don't like to give up at time. This can go against the norms because you don't know like you know, there are a lot of articles that you read online, which is there is always a point where you should give up and not continue. And that's my struggle, which is I still don't know the point where I have to give up. I just don't want to give up. I would love to be known for being the hardest working man in a room than being the smartest, the richest or the coolest or the most popular. So yes, the underlying thing is that there is absolute immense love for work. I do believe work is the biggest blessing any human can have, regardless of geography and effluency level. So there is an underlying appreciation of the concept of work. And on to that. Of course, you continue building. So yeah, that's where it is. And hence, yeah, don't give up. Absolutely. I will tell you. I mean, in case you want to, you can take a pause, but come back. If you have a dream, come back. And I genuinely believe and tell, please don't let age, please don't let age dictate the direction of your life. No matter what happens, please, please. Because a lot of people, especially I'm, I'm, I'm 45 right now, a lot of my friends and people around me, they're reaching that stage where they're contemplating what next, what to do because they've achieved and some of them have done really well for themselves, very inspiring people. I'm now surrounded with, grateful for that. Some of them are contemplating and all, and I keep telling them, remove the concept of age. So what would you do if the age was not an idea? Perfect, right? I mean, there's another mantra I follow which is Bhakt ke Agee Umar Ki ke aukat Amit. Speaker 1 I'm going to get so many phrases out of this episode. Speaker 2 I mean, maybe that was that's my intent also, right? People only listen to the phrases. Forget who the. Speaker 1 The punch lines. Speaker 2 Yeah, but but generally I think right and I mean, I believe in it. And as a result, there's no reason not to continue walking. Keep walking. Don't give up. If you have a dream or an aim or a goal or a mission, if you have a hobby, please, please pursue it. Please give it a shot and give it a shot for a little longer than than just initial instances. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. Towards the end, we spoke about building, right. I want to bring your focus on kind of a realization that growth didn't come overnight, it came gradually as we were listening to your story. Why Continuous Effort and Discipline Outweigh Breaks Now there was also a point where you mentioned that Unhide grew slowly years as A1 member firm and then you first hire then a team. What did that page teach you about timing, patience, and sustainability? Speaker 2 The two qualities that I admire, the two trait that I admire in anyone around me, including myself, or the trait I aspire are patience and perseverance. 1 So you can't be perseverant if you are not patient for sure, 100% and you and patience without perceiving is nothing but laziness. Is, is laziness, right? Like just being patient but not doing anything is laziness. Yeah, doing something and expecting something to happen right away is also foolishness, if I can say. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 So what has it taught me is that one simple thing? Keep going. There's no reason for you to stop. You can take a pause. You can take a pause. Not like long pause. Don't take those breaks. That is very cool these days. Like taking break, right? I don't believe in that. I don't believe in sabbaticals being very honest. And no, I'm not trying to start a debate here, especially given that your audiences will be from varied life choices. I believe that taking a three hour break on a Sunday afternoon, going for a movie or taking a 5 hour break to recuperate or a three day, three day travel or is absolutely fine. But if you have picked up something, if you have started something, there's no reason for you not to continue. There's also a concept of self respect, like what do you tell yourself when you stand in front of a mirror that why did you start what you started and why are you stopping? Both these questions have to be answered and if your voice gives you the right answer, which you are satisfied, then absolutely take a detour, stop, change industry, change lines and all. But if you have started something and when you talk to yourself and whether in front of a mirror, whether when you go for a walk, whether you are journaling or whether you are meeting a therapist, coach, mentor, you have to have very solid reason to discontinue something. Very solid. Uncertainty cannot be a reason ideally, because everything will be uncertain. Anything is uncertain, right? Marketing market dynamics have changed. I understand. Puns have kind of, you know, slowed. I understand. But because it is uncertain, because there is a personal situation, because you're feeling overwhelmed, I don't think that should be the reason. Because if there is a very strong dream and dream can be vague, also does not mean that you are very clear that you want to do ABC. You could be that you want to do something. If you have a dream, then you have to find ways or skills, acquired skills, grow skills, find motivation, grow motivation, reduce your spending, become frugal, whatever you want to say, but go behind it. It has to be much bigger than your individual presence, unless there are some proven logical reasons, as I was saying. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So what it taught me during that time is any movement is growth. Not everything has to be Big Bang. For as long as there's movement, there is growth. Momentum matters more, right? The first person you are answerable is to yourself, yes. So even if you have no goals, but you can still figure out that is there a need to take a break, right? But if you have a goal, then there's no reason to take a break. Finding discipline helps. Taking faster decisions help. Failing fast and not dwelling on it is not dwelling on your failure helps. But those are the skills that you can learn when you stay on a journey, which is what I'm doing. I'm done and I'm doing newer skills but having a very basic accountability to sell that. OK, I want you to do something. I'm getting an opportunity and why am I not going behind it? Why not? If anyone else can do it, why can't I do it? Speaker 1 Well, Sir, I'm going to bring you to a different segment now, which is on trust scale and ethics. The Moral Compass: Authenticity and Integrity in Storytelling Now, Navneet, when someone trusts you with their narrative, they're trusting you with reputation, right? And sometimes legacy. You worked with marketing teams, founders, Cxos, and institutions of trust. What is trust demand from a storyteller? Speaker 2 Trust demand from ACI mean just trust demand from a storyteller, being authentic to the craft. There's a fine balance because if you are in the space of creating a story for a client, then you have to keep the client objective in mind while crafting the story. So that is you have to being you have to be truthful to both your craft and your profession and your service, which is story, creating a story and yet and also to be truthful to the client who is, who is actually showing faith and trust in you. And in case you are creating content, stories, anything for the vital audience, then you have to be truthful again to yourself and to the audience. Now that's a very tricky zone because that can go into that. What if I want to create something which is unpopular and and controversial, so right but my audience won't like it. But I'm being truthful to myself. But that's a That's a topic worth debating. Speaker 1 Yeah, hardcore. Speaker 2 Hardcore debating, I think the classic example for such is that movie called Shamkira, which was basically a beautiful story of, again, an underdog trying to find put and survive by singing songs and the audience wanted to listen to them. And he was being paid, he was earning. And then suddenly someone else came and said, sorry, those songs are controversial to stop singing. So where does it leave an artist? So being truthful to your art versus being truthful to the audience, being truthful to your art versus being and being truthful to your clients or customers. It's it's a fine line. And therefore I think trust also has has a very close connection with the value. So wherever you are doubtful, right, you will go to your values and values can be a bigger. So I said values can be disguised as trust or trusted in itself is a value even I don't know. But trust is actually being truthful to yourself and to the promise you have made to the customer or to the world, right That you will give your best, you will not cut corners. You will try to live up to the again, the values that you have made a commitment for, be it being innovative, be it being like what is being promised is being delivered, be it being timelines, whatever you want to say. Speaker 1 Somebody beautifully answered and I think I don't know how many times when I say the detailing is so on point. Thank you like as I was expecting so I not that I'm surprised, but one wants to listen to you it's like. Speaker 2 I appreciate your figures. Speaker 1 OK, so we appreciate we spoke about trust. Now, now comes scale, the word everyone glorifies. And you've said something very interesting. You've said small is solid. Now, what is scale cost that you're not willing to pay? Speaker 2 When I said, and I still believe small is solid means that I believe that you don't need a big army to bring a chain. A small army of few passionate, committed, intelligent people can make a dent, can bring a massive change to start with. Right. So I meant from that perspective, for as long as you are doing good work, great work, you are definitely approaching your work from a space of work ethics and integrity. Hail gets naturally built again. You may want to argue that, OK, but then it can take longer than someone else who's trying to achieve some kind of scale, right? But I also believe the business of storytelling and the kind of person I am that you can't delegate depth and meaning and just expand the team and bring a scale. Yeah, right. Also it's an entrepreneurial journey that I am on. It's a very intimate journey of for me then versus others, right where I wanted to from day one focus on being cash positive. I wanted to stay focus on understanding this industry as I'm not from this industry. I have never held a camera. I had never held a camera. I had never held writing scripts. I was just marketing consultant, doing well for myself and a movie fan and yes, being born to a creative set of parents, but beyond that there was nothing. So I wanted to also spend some time finding my footing and most importantly in my case, I'm sure by now you have picked and your audience would have picked. I was also trying to break a lot of patterns which were not mine. Yeah. Overcoming my lack of self, lack of confidence, overcoming self doubt, trying to ensure that managing. Sorry your. Speaker 1 I was just going to say, especially the inner dialogue. Speaker 2 The inner dialogue overcoming, of course, finding stability with respect to finance. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Right, becoming financially independent also then each entrepreneurial journey, every single entrepreneurial journey funded, non funded. There's an aspect which is not bought out is the role of personal life, which only that that person knows, right? What is talked and at times glorified is the success which comes with overcoming obstacles. And of course, there are some really, really bona fide deserving stories and very inspiring. Even I'm inspired by such stories. But what happens is also there's an aspect added, which is the time it happened very fast, very quick, right. But then each one of us carry a very different personal story, which has to also be addressed while you're building something. Yeah, right. So as a result, small is solid. Kale definitely get built up, but in a bootstrap business, which is what I am in and that to a creative business, service business stability comes before scale comes. And of course, there are some learning that you also develop. So I'm not saying that everything has been correctly done by me because of which where I am today that I'm being called by you on your podcast. I'm saying there's still some learning that are part of work in progress. So I may have scaled where I am today. I may have been there say three years ago. If I would have not taken some decision and where I am today, then I break, right. So I don't see this as again from any sense of remorse or loss or, or or negative thinking. I'm seeing this as a sense as long as there's momentum, there is growth. As long as yeah, as long as I'm doing well. If my last project was done well, this will be done well. I also want to ensure that I keep in mind that there is a team, I'm responsible. So their, their professional needs, their emotional needs also are my, are my responsibility, right? Opportunity that they need to be provided, growth that they need to be shown, ability to get exposure. They need to be. So now I'm in that zone where I'm also, I'm grooming them, I'm teaching them, I'm giving them all the exposure and opportunity. So this is, yeah, I mean, I've enjoyed my journey and I'm enjoying my journey. But then there are ways I can bring some changes to my journey, which I will I'm sure. Speaker 1 All right, perfect. Nicely answered. Now we're going to talk about something a little broader now. Do Brands and Creators Carry a Moral Responsibility Today? Much of your work focuses not only on brands and corporates, but also on mental health, ethics, leadership, CSR, and identity. Do you believe brands and creators carry a moral responsibility today? What do you think? Speaker 2 Brands and businesses carry the same kind of responsibility as or the same kind of moral responsibility as they're partners and service providers. So I will not want to bucket the brand or the business, I will want to bucket myself. Also in that right first point, every single entity in the in the business world, which is businesses big, small, from a small shop to a 10,000 crore company to maybe a 1,00,000 crore business group to a service provider, creative company, tech company, whatever you want to say. They will always respond to the ecosystem to start with, right? And as a result, if the moral compass is changing or or changes, they will naturally respond and they're not responding out of any compulsion. But that is the right way. That is absolutely the right way to respond. Very simple for a simplified example would be that if business is not doing well, they will end up giving massive discount so that they can at least clear their stock, get the customers back, compete in the marketplace, whatever, right? More simplistic. Likewise, when it comes to moral responsibility, yes, taking care of your stakeholders, your employees, your community at large should be part of the ethos and that is now part of the ethos. Having said that, you should also be alert to the changing model standard and morality and moral compass in the ecosystem or in the world that you are operating and respond and react because in the and all businesses, any business, again, I'm saying small, big does not matter, exist to serve or deliver, right. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So there's no point of them not being able to, even if they're not trying to respect the standard in which respect the standard of the ecosystem also right in which they're operating. So yes, they have a responsibility. They just have a responsibility. It doesn't matter moral or non moral or immoral, They have a responsibility right to show that they care and absolutely I'll significant amount of businesses show that they care. Aligning Values: When to Say Yes or Walk Away from Work Alright, OK. So now that we've spoken about responsibility, tell us when a project comes your way, what makes you say yes versus what makes you walk away? Speaker 2 It takes a lot for me to walk away from a business, but what I think when there is a misalignment or a disconnect on the values, say for example if I know that a particular client does not come with the set of values, that will make the entire collaboration very joyful. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 I may be open to the idea of walking away again. I may be open. Speaker 1 Maybe. Speaker 2 Yeah, till now I don't think we have walked away on on issues around integrity or responsibility if at all. There has always been, which is the standard is, is around the value pricing, you know, scope of work and so on and so forth, right? So, so that's where it is. What makes me stay for any business, of course is work. So there's no reason for me to say no. It's like, it's like bring it on. I also know because I have, I have, I have done ticket sizes as low as ₹30,000 to as high as possible in my journey. But I also know that when a client is coming, if that client is a respected reputed corporate, there's no reason why a project which is perceivably of a small ticket size can't open doors to something as big as a dream for a big company. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Right, Yeah. So as I said, I'm, I'm trying to build an ID with a builder mindset, right? Like yeah, with a with a builder mindset that keep building, keep delivering, keep building logically and naturally you, your value will come out, you will ask for value, you will be paid your value by the way. And then that starts happening. A lot of client will not reach out to you. They will get filtered out or they will be very risk. They will take it well if you say no. Speaker 1 OK, Navneet, we've had really interesting discussion by far. Navigating Grief, Finding Self, and Cultivating Earned Optimism I'm going to touch upon a topic which is slightly more heavier. I'm going to use more because we've had deeper conversations. This is the topic where we're probably going to touch upon loss, solitude as well as optimism. Here goes the first question in this segment, which is losing your mother at 60 and your father at 66. Not long after, How did grief change your sense of time and urgency? Speaker 2 So my mother's loss did hit me really bad. My dad's loss, to be honest and in a very respectful manner, didn't, didn't hit me or affect me as such. OK, grief as a concept is something which is very close to me because I've experienced different stages of grief. And all having said that, I have realized about my myself that I actually inherently, I end up responding to the environment to the situation. So when I lost my mom, say maybe first few days I may have definitely, you know, wept and express my emotions and cried and all, but then get up, get going. That also, by the way, is part of my upbringing that there's no reason to spend some time. Yeah, exactly. You'll be surprised at, you know, my brother was my younger brother was getting married. And on the day when it was his wedding, I actually went for a business meeting after after the ceremony. Speaker 1 Oh wow. Speaker 2 Yeah. And because again, this came that if there's a commitment, if there's work, if there is opportunity around work, don't let go of it. Likewise, if there is a loss, don't spend much time on it. Likewise, right. So as a result losing mom and dad of course at younger age, I will say that I will I will say I have missed them now where I would like to share my life journey, show them whatever I have covered, whatever I want to cover and all. Speaker 1 And indulge them. Speaker 2 Indulge them, of course, indulge them. I mean, the fact that when I'll show them means naturally it'll get in that zone, celebrated them with them and all versus them. Because as I said, there was there was chaos. Simply put, there was chaos in, in, in daily life. There was not definitely there was no stability, but there were illnesses at home like diseases, illnesses. So that was taking away a lot of attention. After mom passing away, dad needs a lot of attention, health, medical, There were some emotional family issues. So as a result, the point was that keep doing what you're doing. Simply don't, don't try to change much. Even I wanted to then also don't try to change. But that's my learning by the way. Keep doing and then one day things will happen when you can put your foot down and and demand what you want. But at that time I didn't grief. I experienced grief is around a time when I disengage with my family by the way, which is when I was completely. Speaker 1 Which actually brings me to the next question. So let me also just say it because I feel like we're in the way where you're just sharing. You stepped away from family for nearly five years, which we figured during our research there wasn't a small decision. Tell us, what did solitude teach you at that point in time? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I will. I will give my 220. When I started my second life and I disengaged and I started staying by myself completely and another day I started staying by myself means I was not in touch with anyone I grew up with. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 OK, at all. At all. So of course my parent had passed away and I had completely disengaged. So I will give that as the time when I started understanding who I am. Finding my voice. Experiencing grief, experiencing pain, loneliness, living with your thoughts, struggling to enjoy your company, getting rid of other voices in your mind, taking decisions as simple as like because I live by myself. So running your home. So understanding where do you get your grocery from? Two bigger decisions about the project getting, you know, executed on time to meeting or facing genuinely correct but difficult question from clients to celebrating to celebrating, you know, client wins to finding out what friendship is what family is that by the way, it's interesting. It's a question I keep asking my some of members in my family, extended family and all key what is family and what is friends and they laugh. I said because I'm not understood. It's only now I'm understanding and so on and so forth. I even asked one-on-one. I asked my therapist thing what is forgiveness? I don't know how to forgive and I mean, it's not that I don't want to, but how to how to forgive. Bolnagar forgiven you and therefore right. Like that's the base I was starting with. So solitude really, really taught me that you better become comfortable with who you are and you mend the relationship with yourself right before you go out and look for relationship with someone else at in any capacity. In a way, unless you're not comfortable at peace or you're aware about your own inadequacies or incompleteness or you're unhappy or you're with your happiness and all, you will always look for those things outside and it will always be a disappointment. But if you are broadly more or less at peace, it's a work in progress. Being very honest here, it's absolutely work in progress, right? If you're comfortable with your voice and you're comfortable with the decision you're taking, chances are that you will end up building better relationships because you will only attract such people. You will only allow such people. You will be able to develop a skill of discernment knowing this person is not a good energy person. This energy person is a good energy person and that reflects at work also. You'll be far more calmer, far more patient. You will find your voice. You will also know how much to take disrespectful behaviour versus how much to forgive, how much to allow versus how much to completely disengage, when to put down, put your foot down, when to voice your displeasure. What important day come experience solitude. Because in a way, I was saying it was my rebirth and it took a lot of disease, right? Wrong. I don't know. But today, when I look back, I'm proud of myself. I'll be honest with you. Yeah. Today, as we speak on this podcast, I will say I'm absolutely incredibly proud of myself with all the decisions I've taken. Some of them have paid off in very tangible way, some of them have not paid off in tangible way, but still favourably, and some of them have really, really, really shaken me. But I'm extremely proud, absolutely no regret, and I'm as excited for the work I do as I was when I started this or when I started my career in 2004. Speaker 1 Alright, perfect. I am gonna take the liberty of getting you to the next question in this very moment because we're talking about something which is you just mentioned that you're immensely proud. Well, you call yourself a die hard optimist, not naive, but earned like you just mentioned. What keeps hope alive after repeated disappointments. Also, give us the tea. Speaker 2 When I think, when I look back, I think that's how I'm built. So significant part again will go to upbringing and the lessons I got from my parents, especially when they were going through a lot of negativity. I, I, I'll tell you one episode, that episode is very deep, clearly entrenched. So we were facing massive financial struggle and losses. Massive. So someone told my mother that there is a gurdwara in West Delhi. So if you go there every Tuesday, 55 continuous week, right, things will change, right? And I'm sure you will understand that this is a very typical suggestion that comes out of out of out of out of good intent. But it's, it's a route that is suggested very often. So my mother decided to go and I decided to accompany her. So even during that time when I used to accompany her and we used to go in the evening once in a while in bus once in a while in auto right. And this is we were in Model Town N Delhi and we used to go to place called Tilak Nagar which is West Delhi. Speaker 1 Yes. Speaker 2 OK, even when we used to go there, she used to go there with the same enthusiasm, like the way she will go to any social gathering or any family gathering when things are fine. You know, like when things are fine, you enter a place very differently when things are not fine. You in her case, I never saw a side which to the world ever, never, ever, ever, ever. Like till the last day of her life, never. I can't even associate a moment that she ever I saw her of course she had you know, she she was diagnosed with breast cancer last date. So she from the diagnosis to her death was probably just 1 1/2 months got diagnosed in May and we lost her in July. Simply put, I mean that of course is a different impact, but as a as a human being, as a person, I never saw her losing hope. Now whether that came from her confidence in her ability to like, you know, a warrior seeks or her love for education which gave her confidence, intelligence or her own faith, I don't know. Rather you'll be surprised. My dad used to always say towards his last fag end of his life saying that I think I could have been a better husband. I did not see your mom being such a strong defender. So therefore I will associate a hope to my mom, then my dad incredible hope and optimist. If, if yeah, it's it's inbuilt. And therefore then of course, after that, stories at home loving, loving all the underdog movies from Jojita Vaisikandar growing up, right. So for that matter, to even DDLJ, the fact that the guy went and got the got similar, right? Like you, you can always find the overcoming obstacle. Yeah, the overcoming obstacle arc in even the love stories in India, by the way, right. Like, yeah, it's like this is Nebi Kushnaguch kiya tsumdika sector. Like, you know, you don't articulate like that when you're growing up. You now articulate when you look back. Speaker 1 It seats somewhere. It seats like that. Speaker 2 Absolutely, I think that's the right word. So I yeah, that seeding about not giving up. I'll also be honest with you is a is a underlying trade in the three of us, the three brothers. Yeah, yeah, I'm very confident about it. Like it's like of course different individuals, but yes. And I'm really proud of that also as a part of my lineage. Speaker 1 OK, shifting the tangent again. Determined to Break Cycles of Failure and Low Self-Worth Now we're moving to legacy and future. You often speak about cycles. You've said that you're hell bent on breaking the cycle, not for status, but foreclosure. What cycle are you determined to break? Speaker 2 Cycle of continuous failures that I think as a family we saw, I saw growing a cycle of low self worth behaviour because of which certain things were certain things happened which left me disappointed. So all the cycle of negativity, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think yes, that is what I would want to cycle of my own patterns. I'm sure I also could have been a better person, better individual, better sibling, better son, better friend, maybe a better partner for sure, 100%. So I want to that therefore break that cycle also like that I don't want to live in past. I want to forgive myself or give others. Yeah. I mean, I think that comes and of course cycle of the fact that just because things didn't happen earlier in in business, business success, whether in family or even in my earlier time does not mean that it will not happen. It will happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely it will happen. Speaker 1 Alrighty, let's talk beyond business. What Future Creators Must Unlearn to Thrive and Innovate Your long term dream is to build a school of creativity. What do you want future creators to unlearn first? Speaker 2 Future creators to unlearn, first one, they need to unlearn that they can unlearn. So they have to get rid of the mental block that comes saying that OK, it is discomforting, but it is not impossible. So they have to break that mental block that OK, I have spent 20 years, 2530 years, 40 years, I can't undo. So that's a mental block. I can't beat any profession. But in case of creative profession, keeping yourself open to all experiences, good, bad, ugly, right, wrong, disappointment, betrayals, success, failures, right? Trying to see them objectively more than subjectively. Because when you see these things objectively, you can always learn something new and then try to articulate them to yourself and bring it out in your work, right? Third, I will say that upskilling yourself is critical. And upskilling is also important not only because of AI, but otherwise also to staying relevant. 4th There is no shortcut, no matter whatever. As I said, Instagram, WhatsApp, universities tell us there are no shortcuts. 5th A creative profession is deeply about observing life, deeply like so as soon as one realizes that there is magic in being silent, being an observer, living in solitude, it's absolutely, absolutely fine because it's very important to understand life, right? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 One of the other point can be possible do take therapy it help you find yourself become self aware. Another point could be remember that agility is is a more important trait than the success that we will get. So as a result don't fly high. There is magic in remaining humble because just because someone is creative or someone is proven creative does not mean that it they will remain. You know that that that gift will remain. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 So, so yes, unlearn those things, then learn these things. Maybe this is something which I keep telling myself also, right? And yes, please, please, please, please study work of people who have done well or who are doing better, regardless of the environment. Right, very. And detailing, one thing which I keep telling my team, which I will also inculcate in my school is about detailing. And that comes from being a critical and a deep thinker that you want to detail everything, every sentence, every full stop, every dialogue placing, everything. Unless that happens, sorry, your work will reflect poorly. But if that can happen, then absolutely. And yeah, and and and keep having little fun. Surround yourself with good people, go out, have some fun, enjoy, Eat well, drink well. If you guys do, in case you're not, then also it's OK. And yeah, be sincere, but not serious. Yeah, for sure. Don't take life so seriously. Speaker 1 Do you think we can say that stories or lessons we want to tell the world are the stories we first want to say to ourselves? Speaker 2 Yes and no. It starts from there, but it is not the only way. The you can still be uncomfortable or uneasy in your personal life, but still deliver well. So I will not write like you can still deliver well because that's a skill. So you're using your skill to tell story. But yes, the story you tell yourself, which is when you are in a good space, then of course it reflects better in in the way you conduct yourself in the outside world and therefore work, but not necessary that you know you need to be you need to tell a good story to yourself to tell good story to the world. That's ideal. But you can still tell a good story to outside just because of one big reason, which is another thing is that if you're inherently, as I said, an observant for life, right? If you are, if you're empathetic, then chances that you will understand life and tell stories perfect. You may be going through not a best phase in life, but if you are moderately empathetic and observant, you can come up with something. Speaker 1 Alright, I'm going to bring you to something more personal. Working Till the Last Day: The Ultimate Measure of Success If success arrive tomorrow in its fullest form, what would still matter? Speaker 2 Definitely fulfillment and satisfaction in the work, ability to take the team along with me and see them comfortable, joyful, happy, at peace and be proud of the work we have done, proud of the success we have achieved. Work ethic will matter. Yeah. And also the fact that I hope whatever happens, I'm working till the last day. For me, that will be success. By the way, for me, that will be success. That if I'll, if I, if I meet my end while I'm working, I'll be. Yeah, regardless of wherever I am, whatever I'm doing, in what part of the world, in what state I am, I'll be the happiest person. Happiest is like understatement. There will be no word to express my joy knowing that it's like this. OK, I was working till the last day, last minute and and, and and and and. Constructive work. I'm not talking about hobbies, by the way, so I'm not saying that, you know, I'm doing something. No, constructive work. I'm I'm adding value to my own life. I'm adding value to someone who is don't trust. I'm adding value to anhide, I'm adding value to the team. But I am doing and of course anhide will survive me. So that's another conviction I am aware about and I'm working toward and I know. So yeah, that's the reason I said I'll be the happiest and proudest. Speaker 1 Alrighty, OK, finally, what does accountability mean to you now as an individual, not just a founder? Proactive Apology and Conscious Behavior: True Accountability Being able to apologize for things that you could have done better or differently proactively. So accountability for me comes from a deep, deep, deep desire that become proactive in apologizing or become proactive when you are being called out. So you just say sorry, right? You don't run away just because you've not been called out, right? So that is where accountability also comes, that it's like this, like judge me if you judge me on the same standard as you want to be judged. Like, you know, there's a concept of golden rule in philosophy that treat others the way you want to be treated. So I think that's accountability, correct. And yeah. And also accountability come from within. Accountability does not come from the toughest level. A lot of people, I believe, say sorry but give very surface level reasoning. Yeah. And and then they also believe that the other person may may have not picked it and all, but everyone picks it. So I said. Speaker 1 You can feel if a person genuinely means. Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I agree. I agree with you. You can feel, but accountability also come by the way that there is change behavior. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Right. Accountability is not just owning up your mistake and agreeing to the miss or whatever. Accountability is also that you are very conscious. It doesn't get repeated. In case it gets repeated again, you become proactive, but you are very conscious on working on yourself to ensure that that pattern that brings discomfort to the other person or or to to your environment that reduces. Speaker 1 Alrighty, Abneet discomfort, what's the last question? Speaker 2 Last question, I think I'll have I'll I'll. I think I'll I'll I'm looking forward to dinner on a Sunday. I've never looked like I'm looking forward. I'm so looking forward to my dinner on Sunday after a beautiful, awesome conversation. Yeah, I think it was nothing short. Love for 21 kilometer marathon? Speaker 1 Well, of course I'm going to take all the credit in prepping, but obviously. Speaker 2 Absolutely with. Speaker 1 A lot of research. Living Life, Making Choices, and Being Unapologetically Me Alright, that brings us to the last question, which is at this stage of your life, what are you most unapologetic about? Speaker 2 I think I'm most unapologetic about the life I've lived, the choices I've made, the decisions I've taken, and the consequences I've faced. I'm also unapologetic about my behaviour. Of course, it could have been much better than I would have. Wherever, if I am, you know, let someone down. But the reason I'm saying And I'm unapologetic because I've already generally apologized wherever. I'm also unapologetic about my passion, my commitment, my love for detailing. I have massive OCD that comes out in my work and yeah, and, and who I am absolutely. I think yeah, it's it's it's incredibly gratifying and yeah, deeply grateful for every single thing that has happened in my life till date. And I'm very confident it'll only be onward and upwards from now. Speaker 1 Let's go. Alrighty. Super grateful that again, such a long conversation, deep conversation, reflective conversation. I mean, I've had chills multiple times when I was listening to you. And like I said, those phrases, those were icing on the cake. And I'm sure the listeners, viewers will also find this episode equally enriching. I want to know your thoughts on what do you feel about the conversation, the content, What do you feel about this episode? Speaker 2 I enjoyed it. I think the kind of questions you asked, even I was not expecting that we'll have such a long conversation. But the best part was that it was engaging continuously. So first, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for giving me the space to be me because the kind of questions you have asked are more about the inside and the depth. The they're definitely on the heavier side then then usually what people associate a podcast with. Yeah, Yeah, right. So I really appreciate you putting an effort, trying to understand who I am, asking me questions, allowing me to be myself. So thank you so much for having me. I do believe that the way you ask questions and that gets reflected in the way you listen, you're asking question not just for the heck, because it's a podcast, but you are actually I'm boarding the entire the curious personality. You are Podcast is a medium for you to achieve that. So yes, I hope your audience enjoyed as much as I enjoyed, you know, having this conversation with you, especially, especially on a weekend. That's OK. And in case they find it boring or dull, my apologies, but I was just trying to be. I was just, I was just trying to be unapologetically me. Speaker 1 Yes, OK. Oh my God, that is such a nice closing. But for everything that you've given me credit, which I'm going to take sincerely with all my heart, but also want to say that again, I'm going to say it. It takes a lot of guts to open up and peel up layers of your personal life so much honestly, and share your journey with all the heart. So kudos to you and Justice Super grateful that you felt that this was a space where you could open up and share and make it meaningful so that people can also benefit from this. Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I'll be happy if, if someone can benefit from whatever I have shared, if any part of my responses and my journey resonates well with someone. Yeah, I mean, I'll be really, really happy in the in the in the practical world, of course, nothing beats action, timing and commitment towards the work. So while of course this conversation happened more in the non practical world, non practical way, maybe that was the theme of this podcast. But yes, there is absolutely no reason for someone not to not to continue giving and continue going. Keep walking and keep on hiding. Speaker 1 Yes, yes. On that note, I'm going to close the episode for everyone listening. Some conversations leave you with ideas, some leave you with inspiration, and some leave you with the permission to be human and ambitious at the same time. This was not a conversation about creativity. It was a conversation about courage, the kind that doesn't announce itself, about choosing truth over Polish, depth over speed, healing over hiding. If storytelling shapes culture, then this conversation was an act of cultural responsibility. This is unapologetic. Me and this conversation with Napneet Ahuja now belongs to you. I'm your host, Ekta. I'll see you in the next episode. Till then, stay unapologetic.