Understanding the Psychology Behind Why We Travel with Sahara Rose De Vore

Hey everyone, welcome back to Type 2 Travel. I'm your host Laura Erickson, and today I'm sitting down with Sahara Rose De Boer, a fellow Wisconsinite and founder of the Travel Coach Network. Sahara and I have crossed paths many times throughout the last four and a half years as I've been building my own travel business, but we've never actually sat down to talk about her story. Her journey from broke college student to 84 countries solo travelers exactly the kind of transformation that reminds me why I started leading group trips in the first place. Here's what captivated me about Sahara's story. She didn't come from money. She started out as a broke college student who basically threw darts at a map to decide where to go next and somehow turned that into visiting 84 countries while figuring out how to fund it all along the way. But this episode isn't just about collecting passport stamps. It's about what happens inside of you when you push yourself to travel solo to navigate the world on your own terms and to sit with both the uncomfortable and the beautiful parts of transformation. Sahara created the world's first ICF accredited certification program for travel coaches. She's been featured in Forbes, CNBC, CNN travel and Condon S. Traveler. She's a TEDx speaker, published author, and now she's navigating all of this while being a work from home mom to a two-year-old, which as she'll tell you has completely changed her relationship with travel in ways she's still processing. In this conversation, we're diving deep into the psychology of why we travel, what we're really searching for when we book that plane ticket and how travel specifically builds confidence in ways that nothing else can. We're talking about post-travel depression, using travel as escape versus enhancement and how to carry those transformative moments back into your everyday life. So without further ado, let's chat with Sahara. Hey adventurers, I'm Laura Erickson and this is Type 2 Travel where the journey might occasionally make you question your life choices, but the stories are always worth it. Just like Type 2 fun, we're diving into those travel experiences that transform us, challenge us, and connect us. So grab your passport and an extra dose of curiosity. Let's get lost together. Alright, Sahara, so wonderful to talk to you today. I'm excited to learn more about you and your journey through travel and more about the travel coach network. Yeah, thanks Laura for having me. So I always kick off my interviews with some travel questions just to warm you up. So hopefully, these should be right up your alley. Okay. First one is what's the country you visited that you knew nothing about before arriving that ended up loving God like all of them. And when I'm backfacts, I am a map that I would literally throw, not literally throw a dart out, but pretty much did just like figure out where I was going. By a place that I loved and went back to many times after falling in love with it was Thailand. So such a typical backpacker answer, but really did capture my heart. I feel like some things are just popular for a reason. Yeah, it's honestly like once you get there, obviously it's so affordable. There's it's a pretty big country. There's different things to go and see in different areas. The weather, the people are so nice, the culture. It's just easy to get around. Everything's so diverse there. There's quaint little towns. If you want the backpacker scene, if you want just the lonely beach nature scene, there's just everything there. And I don't know, I went back many times took my mom twice there. If I did live anywhere else, it would be Thailand. Yeah, it's still really high on my list. And do you just reminding me that I need to make that happen soon? You haven't been to Thailand yet? No, it's been like top five for me for years and years and years. And I just haven't, I mean, now it's so hard for me to travel outside of just group travel. Yeah, it's hard to find time to do anything for scouting and just for myself. And that's one that I would like to do for group trip at the future. I know it would be really, really popular. And I just personally want to go there. It looks amazing. And I love Thai food. So yeah, I don't think you would come back if you didn't. No, no, maybe you would be the last thing that you haven't gone yet. I'll just return regularly. What's the scariest mode of transportation you've ever taken while traveling? Scariest well, okay. I stayed one or two nights in, well, you've been to obviously Morocco many times in the Sahara desert. And we took a camel to wherever we were staying. And the sand dunes are incredibly high. And the camels are tethered together that there's feet like sliding down the side of the caravan. Yeah. And that was terrifying because all I kept thinking is if one camel falls, we're all falling. And we're all going down this giant sand dunes. So that was pretty terrifying. I mean, other than that, I haven't taken any water planes or anything like that. But I had a zip line from a city to a city one time in the Peruvian jungle. So, I guess that yeah, I can't think of anything in particular. I mean, I've taken a lot of weird transportation last year in India. We wrote on the back of motorcycles with random Indian men. My whole group. It was probably not the safest choice. I've definitely had a few tuk tuk incidents where I thought I was for sure going to die one recently in Mexico City. But one that I want to do that comes to mind is the Mauritania Iron Orch train. Have you heard about that? Mm-hmm. It's in Africa. And I don't know why they do this. And I don't know why it looks fun to me. But they ride in the back of an iron or train and they get obviously completely covered in coal. You have to wear goggles. It doesn't look super comfortable. But it's supposed to be a really cool experience. It's almost like your hitch hiking. Probably something that would have been better in my 20s. But for some reason, I still want to do it. Yeah, I mean, I've hopped on like literally had to get pushed onto a train and go agra going to Delhi. So I had that experience. But now that you're minding of dangerous driving, like any any Philippine Thailand, like all those countries were those small little shuttle vans go through the mountains, which is like everywhere. And there's no edge to the mountains. Yeah. I've been on the coach buses. That's the one. Like I was on a coach bus in Costa Rica the very first time I was on the mountains like that. And our bus almost got pushed off the mountain cliff because we got hooked onto a semi truck. And so that was the catalyst of my fear of heights because Alli saw was this hundred foot drop out my window and we couldn't go backwards because we would have fell off the mountain. Miracle happened and we got forward. But I met so many people got into those little shuttle van accidents. And then when I was going in Lau, and we always almost slipped off the mountain because of a muddy area on a turn on a mountain. And I have an on video somewhere in my thing where everyone got out of the van, except for the driver and a monk. And they tried to find it in order to get around this curve. And some guy had to come out of the middle of nowhere to come get our car there. There's a lot of near death experiences with transportation when you're traveling. So yeah, I feel like they kind of blend in and then you start thinking about and you're like, oh yeah, there was a lot of time. Yeah, you kind of block them out. What is your go-to airplane routine? Let's just say pre-baby. Well, I'm six feet tall. And so I try to get like your six feet tall. Yeah, I'm a tall one. And then I usually wear heels. So I'm usually like six, two, six, three. Oh my gosh. So I have long legs. So I try to get cutled in there nice with my leg room before someone else comes and takes it and the arm rest. But so I'm just taking a long flight that I just got on nice and cozy, sanitize everything down. But I'm not a sleeper on the plane. So I can't like get comfy to fall asleep. If it's a long flight, I used to take a melatonin gummy and still like, falls down a little bit. Do you have to upgrade to like, sit row or upgraded seats for like, room? No, I mean, when I was a backpacker, I didn't upgrade for anything, so I didn't want to be for it. But I just, my fingers at sometimes like, I would get the exit row. Or some flights were weird, like some seating was kind of strange. Oh, though, when I fly, I just fly first class because I have miles and I'm like, why not? Yeah. So if you had to pick just one country you returned to for an entire month, where would it be and why? Maybe you already told this. Definitely Thailand. I think of a better answer for that. I just like, like, a Mexico. I've always wanted to just go and live within Mexico City because ice weeks management grandma there was from Mexico. And I just love being in Mexico and being in the culture. It just brings back so many memories. And so if I didn't have the life and family that I have now, I would honestly have been thinking, what if I just went to Mexico City to live? There's like, it's such a diverse city. Yeah, you can find anything and the food's incredible. And it's not just Mexican food. I always tell people, it's like the Mexican equivalent of New York City. You can find anything you're looking for there. What's a country you think most people skip that you think absolutely deserves more attention and love? Well, a lot of them on I would say Macedonia is one of them Montenegro, those down in like what is it the Baltic area? I always mix up the Baltic and the Baltans. I think it's that area by Croatia. Obviously, a lot of people go to Greece. I mean, there's even parts of Croatia that people don't really go to outside of just the popular tourist spots, but a lot of those little small countries that people don't even know where they are, like, coast of home. They're so beautiful. I went to this place called like Orin, Macedonia years ago. And it literally looked like it's the emulsion coast of Italy. And it was absolutely stunning. I stayed with a family-owned apartment place. And I was going to stay for just a couple days because I'd never heard of the place. And I went to high school with, was in the Peace Corps as they were before. And so she was like, "Oh, you should go check that place out." I was there, like, "Sure, why not?" And fell in love with it. It was just this quiet cobblestone little town where there's no tourist. This was back then. I don't know what it's like now, but just the most beautiful pristine lake. There's castles you can hike up to see. So, there's these little towns that people don't really think about going to. I'm googling it, of course, as you're talking to me. And it looks amazing. And I I agree with you that there's, you know, these regions of the world. like you're saying that all these countries are very similar, at least in topography and beauty. And everyone wants to go to Croatia, of course, or Greece because it's beautiful, but there's all these countries nearby that are just as beautiful, lesser developed in a good way, and don't have the tourists, the prices aren't as high because there isn't all of the tourism. And so I always encourage people to check out something similar but different than the thing that they're looking for, because usually when you look at what people are actually looking for, the countries tend to check those boxes too. You know, it's often I think people are so hard up in the idea of like going to this one destination. And when you get to the reasons why they want to go, it obviously applies a lot of different places, which I think we're going to talk a little bit more about the reasons why people travel. So let's get into a little bit more about you and your journeys. Back to the beginning, you were a broke college student. How did you even start traveling internationally when money was so tight? What was your first trip? Yeah, so I didn't grow up traveling. So traveling was never something that I thought about doing. I remember in high school hearing about this concept of backpacking year up. And so at the time my best friend and I were like, after graduating high school before we go to college, like let's backpack Europe. And of course our parents were like, no, you're not doing that. And so we didn't. And so I was always in the back of my mind. But I also during university, I didn't ever knew what career path I wanted. So first two years, luckily, you can kind of change. There's prerequisites and stuff you have to do. And so when it was my third year university, I was changing from across the state from Arizona and I was moving Chicago. And I was like, what am I going to study? And I came across a hospitalian tourism management program. And I was like, travel, that's so cool. Who doesn't want to travel, right? So I joined that. And that's really where I got the idea of traveling because there were so many foreign exchange students in my class from Asia and Europe where they were telling me of how easy it was to travel to these different places. And they've been to so many countries. And I'm like, I want to do that. But yeah, I was this broke college student. I was so naive when I moved to Chicago, I grew up being able to let my mom, she paid for stuff on her credit card. And now I had no money and she cut that off. And I'm trying to pay this thousand dollar rent that I have. And I'm in school full time. And so my mindset was like everyone else is that travel is incredibly expensive. And so I was like, if I want to backpack Europe, after I graduate in two years, I need to save some money. So I just completely changed my money mindset. I eliminated any expenses that I had. So I think it was like cable. I shut off my cable. I stole my car because I didn't really need it in the city of Chicago. There's public transportation. And I started working a lot of flexible jobs while still in school full time. So I ended up working five jobs while finishing school. So anything from staffing agencies, nannying, babysitting, selling my art on Craigslist back then, anything that would bring money in I did. And then I got into the restaurant industry in Chicago. And if you're in the right places, it could be quite lucrative. And so I was able to not do the majority of those other things, even though they're all super fun, I work at trade shows and stuff like that. But I made a lot of money working in restaurants. And despite a lot of my other friends who would go out and party afterwards and spent all their money that they made, I saved it. So I just really worked a lot. And before I knew it in two years, when I graduated in 2010, I had a chunk of money saved up. And that was when I was like, okay, I'm going to go do this backpacking Europe thing. I bought back then they had a year rail pass for I think it was like $700. You can go take the train to like up to 30 different countries in a certain time frame. And so I did that. I didn't go to 30. But I thought I would come back home and quote unquote, figure out my life and find a job and climb the ladder and I fell in love with travel. And that was the catalyst of me and my backpacking journey. So how long were you gone then? So that first one was a month and a half, which is what my year rail pass. So the first country I flew into was Ireland. And then I came home. It was a holiday time. It was Christmas spent Christmas with my mom bought a one-way ticket to Costa Rica, packed the backpack for warmer weather then and traveled all throughout Central America. And that was for two and a half months. Then came back and repacked and then you know, worked a little bit and went on. So that was my life for 10 years. So it's kind of my next question. Obviously you had a little nest egg to start with. But did you work abroad while you were traveling or did you just kind of come back work a little bit, make a little more money, go back and forth? Yeah. So I never worked while traveling. Ever. I never made money traveling. I never worked for my like for myself, anything. I didn't have a laptop or anything. And working abroad wasn't really a thing like remote work. Digital nomadism kind of grew while I was traveling. No, I'd came home and I never ran out of money. That's a misconception that a lot of people have oftentimes for travelers is that you travel to your broken, go home, which I think is a case for some people, many people. For me, I never wanted to my bank account to get below a certain number also because I wanted to be able to help my mom out. If she ever needed money, I'm an only child and she's a single mom. So I came home and again, I worked flexible jobs. I was able to find more babysitting jobs. I worked in sales for a company that was pretty flexible and knew that I was kind of coming and going and working in restaurants again too. And so I just did what I needed to to get my bank account back to a certain number. So after a amount of time, just like you with traveling, you know how much a certain time frame and a location in the world is going to cost roughly on your style of traveling. So I knew roughly how much I needed for these trips. And so the longest trip I ever taken were two, six month trips. But that's really what I did. And yeah, I just focused on making money and traveling, but having that balance within that. Did you have the locations more or less playing? It was more like I'm just going to start in Costa Rica and then go from there and see where it blows me. I never knew where I was going to go. I always thought about Costa Rica because when I was studying Spanish in school, we had to choose a Spanish speaking country. And I just remember choosing Costa Rica because I loved the the rainforests, Steve, I've been the colorful birds and I'm like an animal person. So that always stuck out to me. But after that, I know clue. I would have my mom print out at her work office. I would just Google Central America or South America, or just the region. And on like a colorful map that you would Google, she would print that out on just a piece of paper with some of like the with the capital cities and some other little main cities. And that's what I would take with me. And I would look at that and be like, okay, where do I want to go next? And then I would just talk to other travelers and see where they went. Yeah, like it's me thinking, obviously, we all lived through this time period. But what was the internet like back then compared to now in terms of obviously travel is so accessible now compared to what it used to be. So how was it different? And that's what I just filmed a TikTok video. I'm talking about this this morning. And I think I did a LinkedIn post on it to the other day, but so different. I've traveled with a foot phone that didn't even turn on to tell me what time it was. And a paper map that you can get from your hospital counter that they like designed themselves. You can do a few hospitals if they had a computer, you had to pay per minute to use the internet. Was never a blogger, but I had a blog on blog spot to just share about where I was going upload some photos and let my mom know I was alive and where I was in the world. Because that was our only means of communication. I didn't have any other forms to be able to communicate with her. I had like our other people's phones who had some some minutes on them to just call her real quick to tell her I was okay. There was no booking.com or any of the booking sites. So if you look in the lonely planet books that the hostels had, they would have some names. And literally you would have to write down actual directions. Like you would go to this bus stop, you would turn right, you would look for this sign, you go down this road, like actual directions. I have all my notebooks from back in the day. And I would knock on doors and ask if they had a room, a bed for me to sleep in. And many times it was a no because it was filled. And then you'd have to find on find the next. And so I forced you to like communicate with people, figure things out, learn how to navigate all of your problems. Like so many things it taught you to do back then that you don't have to do any of that nowadays. That's that. Very sad. Yeah. It's it's like I didn't bad. It's getting me thinking back to I lived in Spam and in like 2005, 2005, 2005. And the second time I went, I was studying there after college to get a certification. And at that time, I booked it one way ticket. I had a place to stay, I think for like two nights when I got there to Madrid. And then after that, I was like looking for a more, you know, semi permanent place to live for many months. And I didn't have that figured out when I went there. And now that idea of how it doesn't seem that daunting to people, but like so hard as describing, I think I found it on Craigslist, the place I ended up staying. I'd actually call somebody like God forbid use the phone. And I was like, what, 22 and so looking up a phone in a foreign country and making a phone call and speaking to me and it's just somebody to see if they have a flat available and then having to go there and like interview roommates essentially. Now I'm thinking, oh my god, that sounds scary now. I can't even imagine doing that at my age with little resources like you know, everything is so easy now. Everything is so accessible, which I think is like good and bad to a point. I think I talked about this in one of my first podcasts with somebody about how travels become almost like a menu that we can order from, you know, and we can have anything at our disposal, including experiences that maybe sometimes that's not even a good thing, you know, that you can just order up these things and we expect locals to provide all of these experiences for us at a dime. It's just so wild to think like the days of map quests and printing off directly. and really having to defend for yourself. And part of me thinks it would have been so nice to have all these tools, but at the same time, it was nice to travel at a time where you weren't doing anything for social media. You know, nothing was for other people. Nothing was for photos or for the Graham. Everything was literally just for yourself. And you didn't have to feel pressure to share that experience with anybody. Yeah, I absolutely love that because, especially nowadays, and I know we'll start talking about the T-Sian and stuff. But what's happening in the travel industry right now is this incredible shift towards this more emotional field that travel was back then, and that we know as human beings that travel doesn't provide for us. So why we get addicted to travel and why we catch the travel bug, all these kind of buzzwords or whatever. There's a reason for that. There's scientific proof to it, but there's also experiences of our own, our own opinions and our own beliefs about travel. Everything, making things seamless and faster and to our disposal and at our fingertips, everything, frictionless, taking away all of the problems that we have to face through travel removes a lot of what travel can do for us. So back then, being forced to figure things out and communicate and talk to strangers and get out of your comfort zone and ask for directions or take a risk and go on an adventure in the spontaneity of things and just everything. Everything that travel does for us, we had to experience and we went through back then, but now with technology and AI and apps and everything is starting to kind of chip away a lot of that. So my question at Sun LinkedIn was, what does that mean for the future of travel? What does that mean for our connection to travel if the industry continues that way? But like I said, luckily we're hearing more about this like why for travel and transformation and stuff like that so kind of see where that all goes. But yeah, like the industry, it's especially from our different experiences and background in travel, it's just night and day. Yeah, I think too, I would say around group tours and they need to be kind of pre-planned and scripted to a point because we're bringing 10 to 14 people to these places and we need people to have a heads up and so we have to have plans and people need to know what to expect and they want that. But for someone that is not really super type A and not somebody that wants my travel scripted for me, I struggle with trying to find that balance between, yes, like here's our itinerary and we do have a plan. But sometimes it's okay to go away from the plan even as a group tour operator sometimes I'm like, you know what, this is what I had planned today. But this opportunity just came up and this sounds a hell of a lot more fun. And if you guys trust me, I think we should do this. I love those moments because for me, you want to just let us do something different. But also it's like when someone just breaks away and okay, I know you told me we're doing this today and I have my itinerary but I'm going to trust and we're just going to go do something different. I love those moments because those are the moments that you live for when you travel alone. That's kind of the beauty of traveling alone is that you get to do whatever you want. You don't have to have plans. It doesn't have to be quite so scripted. I feel like that's when the magic happens in travel is when you don't have a plan and your day ends up being something completely different than what you thought it would be. And so that is my biggest challenge that I try to infuse into group travel is still allowing time for that spontaneity and for changing your mind and doing something different. Yeah, it's so important because it really is in those moments of spot nady, the unknown, the challenges that we face. Those are the moments that we meet incredible people and hear incredible stories and we gain our own stories and we have these memories that we get to laugh about and think about and reminisce about and we share with others. Remember that time when we did this and this happened and everything doesn't have to be so scripted and so put together and so to the itinerary all the time because you're removing the opportunity for people to really, really feel, I don't know what I'm talking about, you, I just mean in general, the industry like feel and experience what traveled really can do for us. Yeah, and I think when we take away the friction and the challenge and the discomfort in travel, you're kind of left with this washed up experience that's been a little maybe over curated and doesn't feel as genuine and I feel like those moments of friction and challenge are what you remember. Whenever I talk to people on the podcast or just in general about like an amazing moment or an amazing story, nine times out of 10, it wasn't something that they planned and that is part of the story. It's like, oh my gosh, you did this and then it ended up this way and then it's like that you know, you can see the climax of the story. It always kind of has that same arc. And to me, that's why I created this podcast and why I called it type two travel because it's those moments that you thought they're going to go one way and they went another or you thought you weren't going to make it off that mountain or you know, you thought you'd never survive a week of taking cold showers or whenever it is and you ended up learning something from it. Yeah. I think that is the beauty of travel. And this is just my personal opinion. I know there's a time in a place for every kind of travel and this is coming from someone who's going to resort and close to Rico this weekend because I just need to get away and think about nothing. There is a time in place for that. But I think we all need that type of travel where it is a little bit uncomfortable. So you traveled to all 84 countries solo, correct? You didn't go with anyone. So why was solo travel so important to you? And what made you choose that type of travel over traveling with friends or partners? Yeah. No. Well, I didn't really have any other option. I'm an only child like I mentioned. And I was not, I was used to being alone and I like being alone. And I've never really wanted to wait or had to wait for someone else to agree to anything in life. So I didn't want to type what I wanted to do on others. I really honestly never crossed my mind to not travel alone. And yeah, you meet so many people. So there's times I met people in my hostels or during transportation and traveled with them a little bit or met up with them in another country or visited them in another country. My mom would fly out to visit me sometimes. She would bring some of her friends. So I got to show them around town. They got to live the backpacking ways. So again, talking about what memories you create through travel. Those are some of the stories they continue to tell or when they stayed in hostels with me and took tuk tuk and everything. I loved it. I loved the freedom of being able to do what I want, when I wanted to and not have to answer to anyone else because I've had a taste of that. I know what it's like traveling with other people. I know what it's like traveling with friends. And everyone travels differently. And everyone has different things that they want to do when they want to do it. And I just kind of wanted to do my own thing. And you have the flexibility to say, "Okay, now it's time for me to go back off on my own." I love that. So as the founder of the travel coach network, which how long have you had the travel coach network now? Over six and a half years ago, I started it. Amazing. So you focus heavily on the emotional and psychological reasons that people choose to travel. Why do you think people travel? What are we really searching for when you book that lane ticket? Yeah. In my belief, there's always an underlying reason why people travel. Even if it's a curated experience that we have someone else planned for us or an all-inclusive resort that we go to, there's a motivation for why we're looking to get away. And just like any experience that we're looking to have or anything that we put money towards, we want some sort of outcome of feelings. We want to change in feelings. We want to feel better, be happier, de-stress. It away from what's going on in our life. There's so many different reasons and why for travel. And so that is something I realized wasn't talked about in the travel industry while I was backpacking and that's what sparked my idea for the TCN and just travel coaching in general was because there's so many reasons why we are scrolling on Instagram and following travel influencers and reading travel blogs and envy backpackers and more people who have that freedom-based lifestyle or there's a rise of the digital nomad, mad as in that happened, or people quitting the nine to five to travel the world. I was like, well, why is it travel people are turning to when they could do anything else after quitting their corporate job? Like, why is quit the nine to five to travel a tagline? Why is it travel? There's this emotional connection. And so throughout running the TCN for as long as I have and really being able to understand the coaches that come in and why they traveled in the first place and why they are now inspired to help other people have incredible travel experiences or use travel in their own life for a tool for transformation, healing, self discovery or whatever. I've heard so many different reasons and some common ones, I mean, again, everyone is so unique and personalized but common ones are likely for loss. And I think that's why too, a lot of women travel so low, or women travel a lot, is that we carry a lot, to we carry a lot of emotions, we carry a lot of hats that we wear, roles that we play in our lives. And so we tend to lack our own self-care, we tend to put others before ourselves and we get to a point where I need something different, I need to go away, I need to not be in this environment, I need to have a break, I need to put myself first, I need to get clear on some things. There's a lot of these underlying reasons why we travel and it's just super interesting here in people's different stories and I'm sure you hear a lot of them from all your guests. Yeah, and it's a lot of what you just said. I think even I would agree with the grief or loss or just somebody going through a big change and you probably agree with this. Sometimes I think people don't know why they're doing it and they obviously want something, but they don't know why those deeper reasons, people will just say, "Oh, I just need a break, I need a vacation," or "I just want to go here," but they're maybe not sitting down and thinking about the why behind why they're traveling. I think that's why they're traveling. that is becoming more of a known thing in the travel industry. And I think travelers are becoming more conscientious and responsible and clear on their reasons for traveling. But grief or loss is a big one. I would say divorce is a big one. Breakups, people who are unhappy in their jobs. Lots of moms that just need a break from being a mom or a partner and just need to focus on themselves. I think that's a big one. It's just people needing to focus on themselves. That they're in caretaker roles one way or another or super bogged down in their career and they just need space. But for me, I think a big one is travel giving you space to think, clarity, a break from whatever it is you have going on because it is so hard when you're in the daily grind and you're working or you're parenting or you have a spouse and you just rinse or peat every day and you don't have time to sit and think about what you would change about your life. I think travel just gives you that kind of space and freedom to think clearly and reflect that you just don't get when you sit at home. Yeah. Well, we're faced with different things. It's the people that we meet. It's the stories we hear. It's experiences that we have. It's the things that we face. There's so much research that shows how travel can spark or creativity and if we're in a mental block, especially as business owners, it's nice changing environments. We get inspiration when we shift off of what we're trying to focus on every day to something else. Those are the moments that you get the aha. That's where you get the clarity. But in October of last year, Hilton hotels came out with a report that said they predict 20, 20, six to be the year, what they call the Y-cation and they just read an article in fours where they're talking about why people are putting emotions first before the what and the where when it comes to travel. So it's exactly what we're talking about here of this Y- Last year I did something wild and created Camp La La Whiskey and so many of you showed up to celebrate. We sold out in our first year, made lifelong friends and proved that adults deserve summer camp just as much as kids do. So we're doing it again. Join us at Camp La La Whiskey in Hayward, Wisconsin on August 27th through 30th. It's straight up summer camp nostalgia with a healthy dose of adult freedom. Think Pond Tune cruises, Bloody Mary Bars, Food Trucks, the Camp La La Whiskey World Games and an 80s and 90s summer camp theme dance party. No pass per required just a long weekend of making new friends and memories in the natural beauty of the Midwest. Spots are limited, so head to my website to claim your spot before we sell out again. Camp La La Whiskey, a very Midwest summer camp for grownups is back. Do we traveling and then you can go and make better decisions on where can I to have that sort of experience or those outcomes. But yeah, I always struggled to share my real why for travel. I tend to give the pretty story like I did here of graduated school. I always wanted a backpack had the time now that I was finished with university and whatnot. But like at the same time, I've had an anxiety disorder my entire life and so I just had this anxiousness and my last couple years of university. I think it was also because I was working so much, but I started experiencing a lot of depression and I never really had that as bad. And I was just in this terrible mental head space at the time where I was like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life and I don't know who I am and what I want. And if life is even really worth living, what am I going to do? And I like many of us we have a fight or flight and I physically had to go somewhere else and I remember thinking like, okay, I'm going to go on this one backpacking trip to Europe and I'm going to come back and I don't know where what am I going to do and I fell in love with travel. Thankfully, I really saved my life and really changed the trajectory of my life. But people struggle to figure out their real why and that's one of the things I love like forcing our travel coaches to do when I get out with them is like, no, really, it's not about adventure and it's not about, you know, trying new foods and seeing the sites. It's like, really why do you love travel so much? I have a very similar story in 2020. I would do a horrible breakup and I was looking for meaning to live. Let's put it that way. And I think a lot of people relate to 2020 and just how horrible it was. It put a spotlight. I think on so many things in everyone's lives, that's why there were so many people leaving their jobs. That's why there's so many people leaving their relationships. You know, everyone kind of had a moment to stop and pause and think and reflect and be like, wait a minute, am I even happy in whatever situation I'm in? And I was isolated, you know, I lived alone, I was working remotely and I would say this is like the, this was the time when people were like wiping down their groceries and I remember had to like absentee vote for a window. I mean, when you look back, it was kind of bad shit crazy, the shit we were doing. But it was very, very isolating and I was so sad and the only thing I could think that I wanted to do that would have cheered me up or made me feel better. It was travel. It was that escapism of travel. And I wanted it so bad and I couldn't all my trips have been canceled, all my plans have been canceled. I mean, how I couldn't even go have a drink with a friend at a bar. There was just no way to get out and do anything and get out of my bubble. And that's for me when I realized how important travel was for me that it wasn't just like, oh, I just need to travel. I just want to go take a vacation. And I realized I didn't want it. I needed it. And that was a huge turning point for me in my life and in my career because once we got through the pandemic and things started to open up, I started to travel in a different way. I'm in a more intentional way because I appreciated it in a different way. And that's when it had such a big impact on me, which then of course was my motivation for starting a business, which I think most people who are working in travel, like you said, or travel coaching, they've had some sort of big breakthrough impactful experience because of travel. And now they want to share that with other people or help other people. So I always they travel save my life in a very similar way back to your whycation comment, though, I think I'm glad that this is trending. And I've been trying to tell people this for years because people are so set on that they want to take a trip. Fine, but where they want to go. It's like, nope, I'm only going here. But then they're also like, but I want my flight to be cheap. And I always get messages from people that are like, so I'm taking my family for to Florida this one week in March. And I can't find any cheap flights. Can you help me? And I'm like, no, because you want to go to one of the most popular destinations in the world, probably, or definitely in the United States for spring break with a family of four. And you're you're picking the most popular time of year to travel. And I get people have times that they can travel and times they can't. And especially when you have kids, I know that's constricted with school and all these things. But being locked down to a destination and dates is really going to limit your ability to find an inexpensive trip. Now we still people, if you would just think about like, what is that you're looking for and be a little bit more open-minded and open up Google flights or Google Explorer and then go find something that kind of fits what you're looking for. So you're looking for a beach vacation because you want to relax or you're looking for something with history or culture or what. Whatever it is, like there's lots of places in the world that will tick that box. And if you're looking to save money, Google Explorer is the best tool to do that because you can find places that one, you would never think of going. And usually I would argue that those places end up being less popular, less busy, less expensive. And I think there's just something so rewarding about like you said when I asked you the question of where did you go that you, you know, didn't know a lot about but ended up loving. How many people go to places and they're like, oh, that was just awful. I hated that trip. I hated that country. Yeah. I think more often than not, it's such a pleasant surprise when you go somewhere that you didn't know a lot about and you learned so much and it ends up being a place that the whole world doesn't already know about, you know, like Paris. Yeah. I was like, I have to go to Paris and it's like, well, what is it that you're looking for in Paris? Is that you want to sit at a cafe and eat a croissant and drink a coffee and read a book? You can do that in a lot of places in France or other places in Europe. So I just think focusing on the why can lead you in so many unexpected places. And I think often ends up being a better trip than focusing on the destination itself. Oh gosh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, every time that we travel we're a different person or what I mean by that is we're going through something differently. There's a different reason for why we want to travel and one time it might be to connect more with our partner that we haven't spent time with because we're both working too much. The next time it's because we want to see the excitement in our child's eyes when they are on the plane for the first time. The next time is because we are nearing burnout ourselves and we need just time alone because we haven't had that in two months. Whatever it might be, we're a different person every time we travel. And therefore all these different places look at the map as these prescriptions of this one that works for you for this time. This one works for you for another time. But you can't understand that and you can't be prescribed those different destinations if you aren't really sure of what your symptoms are in the first place. So how do you suggest people figure out their why? Figure out their symptoms, their reasons, their motivations? Because I think some people might struggle with that idea if we said, so what is it that you're looking for? I just need a break, I just need a vacation, I want to get away, I want to see the Eiffel Tower. I think there's a lot of those surface level reasons for travel and those are fine but there's also deeper reasons. How do you help people get to the deeper reasons? Yeah, I think people really need to be honest with themselves. But it's also a cultural shift that needs to happen in the travel industry as a whole because people are so used to when we talk about travel and we're talking about where to go of answering blanketed questions. Like, where have you gone in the past? Where what's on your bucket list? What kind of activities you like to do? Are you a beach person? Are you on mountains person? Those are such broad things that tell us absolutely nothing about that person right now. And so people need to take it upon themselves to do that. inner work that's self refluxion and that's why the coaching world is so important and what we do in travel coaching is being able to tap within look within reflect on why am I feeling the way I'm feeling what do I actually want to feel like what do I want feel like when I get back home all of these Uschlands and answers are so important to help you make better Finding a booking decisions on your for your travel So for you what is intentional and meaningful travel look like when you're in a destination? How do you travel differently because of your philosophy? I think it's a lot of what we were talking about that spot. Navy. It's the destinations that I choose to go and it's how I spend my time there Because I'm thinking when I when you ask me that I'm picturing myself as I'm wandering around the streets of Thailand in particular camera crosses Town Pukai that I thought I was staying in the popular part of Pukai and ended up there on the wrong bus But it was for the good talk about spontaneity and fell in love with this little town and Walking around and saying hi to the same locals every day hitting my favorite ice coffee from the same vendor and Then hopping out of Tuck Tuck paying 50 cents and then you can hop off at any of the beaches that they stop at and then spend the time there Reading walking around Tannin because that makes me feel good and then hopping back on the Tuck Tuck back into town and Getting my favorite fruit salad like it's these simple things that make you happy But you have to figure out what makes you happy and so being able to be in environments where those Opportunities exist are so important and so that's why I never stuck to a strict itinerary Why didn't want to have to travel with other people like I wanted to be able to craft my own happiness Journeys and I knew that's what I needed was to be alone and to have my own freedom of flexibility And all that so how do you suggest we help people understand the emotional journey that can happen during travel I see that's a lot where people get very emotional travel stir stuff up and people good and bad sometimes It's completely unrelated to the trip itself So what should travelers expect or prepare for psychologically for a trip? Yeah, it's a really good question I think they should prepare for being hit with the truth of their own why and it's where intentional travel really comes in play It's the work that travel coaches do is so important in the sense we're having people really understand their wife or travel and do that Deep dive reflection on what is causing you to want to get away? What are you looking to actually do and feel and what are these motivations and then therefore what needs to happen during that trip? So if you spend time giving back when maybe it's helping with a local orphanage or animals that need care Recognizing what could happen what kind of emotions could that spark up? You know having time to sit near body of water by yourself with your journal and reflect or listen to your favorite song What kind of emotions you think that's going to bring up and how is that going to make you feel and is it maybe just a cathartic release that you do need That you've been holding back from so being more intentional with Why you're going and what you're actually doing on your trip and help you with this overall outcome of coming back feeling and saying Hate that trip was the transformative journey that I really was looking for. I think it's okay for people to Not be happy the entire time they're traveling, but I think people get in their minds like this is my trip This is my perfect vacation and so I can't let it go anyway But this one way that I had in my mind and in reality, I don't know I can't think of a trip where I don't cry in some kind of way whether it's something I see that moves me or somebody I talk to or something experience or something that comes out within me. I even it just leading group trips It's been such a it's psychological warfare sometimes for me and I think part of it is just entrepreneurship But it's made me realize so many things about myself and when I first started doing this I would almost blame myself and be like get it together now I've just realized okay, these things keep coming up. So what do I need to listen to and pay attention to because obviously keeps coming up for a reason What about that do I need to change or at least be more mindful of and I think that happens all the time with travel that stuff comes up I had somebody who came to Cuba with me last year who seemingly really did not like the trip and I think to an extent Cuba isn't for everyone definitely a place that challenges people physically emotionally mentally I mean it's such a polarizing experience in my opinion if we're doing Cuba right which is experiencing the real Cuba and not doing well the technically illegal way would be to go to resort and have the typical Cuban classic car Beach vacation, but if you are really experiencing Cuba I don't know how that cannot hit you in the chest and hurt your soul a little bit But also it's very touching It's very moving. It's one of those countries that most people come back and they say it changed their life being in Cuba It's changed their perspectives I had this one moment as she was just really struggling and seemingly hated it and some I struggle sometimes with that because it's like oh my gosh did I do something But I'm also not in control of somebody else's experience when they travel And that's been a hard thing for me to say especially if I have like 10 12 people and they're all experiencing something in a different way and some people are loving it and some people are showing no emotion and some people Are seemingly not liking it. I've had to learn more often than not. That is their own shit. They're dealing with That's their own stuff and sometimes they are having a great time Yeah, they just may not be outwardly seeing it or they're still processing it And so I've learned that long after the trip sometimes is where someone comes back and says you know That was really hard for me, but now I've had a lot of time to reflect on it And I've learned this this and this or it brought up some stuff from my childhood with poverty or it brought up This this and this from from my past and I was processing that while I was on this trip And so I think people also need to get themselves graced Yeah And allow whatever comes up to come up and also give yourself time after the trip To process and think about things and reflect on things because I don't think that that transformation That is so Popular and buzz wordy right now that doesn't happen instantly It's not like you go on a trip and you come home and you're like I'm transformed I'm a new person Everything's different now I mean there is some of that instant stuff that does happen on a trip But it also is this process that happens long after the trip especially if you are intentional about it Yeah, and that's why the work again what we do in travel coaching itself is so important Because you're helping guiding people on this journey and that post trip is so important Because that's really where the opportunity for the transformation the clarity the reflection to happen And to really allow these experiences to Help us become who we want to become and live the life that we want to live and feel how we want to feel It's like that's just how powerful travel is Getting out of this cycle of meeting a vacation from a vacation or anticipating your next vacation And going right back to the same routine that mindset that we've been in before the trip Is doing such a disservice to how incredible travel can do and what it can do for us in our lives Yeah, and I think we don't take enough time to stop and think when we get back from a trip About what we've learned and how we're going to infuse that into our day-to-day lives Instead of just focusing on the next trip Essentially, it's the next big hit. It's the next big high, you know, you want that dopamine If I have something planned and I'm going somewhere else Which is great, but I've really tried to be intentional About food when I travel I love to cook and so Infusing all of these things that I've learned with cooking and different ingredients and just different ways of living that I learn abroad I really try to bring that home with me physically I bring it home with me But also trying to implement those things into my day-to-day life Because it reminds me of these countries that I've traveled to the people that I've met and it I mean on a very surface level. It just makes the food taste better Just thinking about these things. I feel like we're so often when we're traveling We're like when I get home. I'm going to do this right when I get home. I'm going to cook this way I'm going to make this cocktail. I'm going to start doing this thing I'm going to learn Spanish is when I hear all the time from people Because you know like while you're traveling you realize wow that is a pretty necessary skill And I would be able to communicate with these people so much better if I knew a little bit more their language So when I get home I'm going to start doing do a lingo and then we get home and we go back into work And we go back into all of our roles and we have all these responsibilities And we're right back to where we were before and then we just repeat that cycle over and over and over I feel like Spanish is just a good example because I feel like that's something a lot of people say They're going to learn a language and then they just don't take the time to do it Oh stop pause figure out what do you want to do differently as a result of what you've learned And then figure out how are you actually going to do that? Baby steps little things that you're going to change these little micro changes that you make in your life Yeah, that's really what it is. It's just a series of small changes And small things that happen in your life that leads to an overall bigger transformation anyways So on that note a lot of people come back from a big trip And then they have the post-travel blows. I have a blog I write about this and I actually send an email to my travelers When they get back being like I get it. I know where you're at right now. It's hard It's hard to one you've had this amazing experience You're potentially processing everything that just happened and then you're hit with the Sunday scaries And you have to go back to work and now you have a mountain of work waiting for you And you potentially have kids and laundry and unpacking and all of these things And you potentially don't have another trip plans. So how do you help people navigate that feeling maybe of feeling a little lost when they get home? Or sometimes what I hear often especially with Cuba is I haven't processed yet what I just experienced and I don't feel the same. And now I don't really know where to go from here. They often get that with even going into a grocery store. I think after you've been in Cuba, it's kind of a little better in Cuba as far as doors, but a few years ago you couldn't even walk into a store or you'd walk into a pharmacy and see empty shelves. The options that you have there are just so limited if you have them at all. And then you go grocery shopping here and you walk into, you know, this giant supermarket with just so much stuff and so many choices and so many options that are fingertips. And people are just like, my gosh, why was I complaining for a week about having an uncomfortable bed or didn't get the hottest shower or I'm tired of eating Malanga for another day? So how do you suggest people deal with that ease back into life and that post-traveled depression and all of those feelings that people get when they come home? Yeah, I think it's really important for people to reflect on that. Get those feelings out of your head and out of your heart and onto the paper. So journaling is super helpful and understanding why do you feel the way you feel or help yourself get to understand what it is you're exactly feeling where you think these feelings are coming from and then placing that with some sort of herpice, whether it's gratitude. I know traveling like I am so grateful for toilet paper for having abundance access to paper napkins. Like there's countries you go to where I became a hoarder on plastic bags and toilet paper because they're not at your disposal all the time. And so taking what you've learned through your trips and understanding why are you feeling the way you're feeling and helping yourself get to that realization, whether it's through conversation through journaling, self-reflection, music, whatever works for people are maybe and then finding purpose to that because again, we can take all these different things that travel makes us feel and help shape us into who we want to be because we're only responsible for ourselves, right? We just have ourselves, our beings, our body, our own lives, our own decisions, you know, the choices that we make. And so how can we take what it is that we've learned to help our own lives and then those around us, whether it's our communities, our families, everything? My in-laws laugh at me all the time because I tell them the stories of the recycling that I saw in India and how there's crunched over a man on the floor sorting different color plastics and outside of his little hut was the label from the US and Canada and Australia, then they ship all of the recycling over there and this is the old man who's hunched over permanently because this is his job and what he does in this tiny dark room. That image and things stuck with man, the simplest thing you could do is put a piece of plastic in the right bin. And so it's all these little micro experiences that we have that we take and figure out how can we take that and make ourselves and make our own lives and the lives around us better, but getting that out of our system is so important. Yeah, I think that's really important to not forget those things that you've seen. And I think sometimes that painful heart-breaking, ugly side of travel is just as important as all the beautiful, amazing, wonderful experiences. And I'll never forget my first business coach. I told her that I wanted to go to Cuba because I had planned a trip in 2020 and we know how that went. It didn't happen and I was telling her that I wanted one of my first group trips to be to Cuba and she was like, "Why would you want to go to Cuba?" Gave her all my reasons and she was like, "It's just so sad. Why would you want to spend your vacation sad and seeing sad things?" Basically just like, "Oh, gross." Obviously, I'm not working with that business coach anymore and that was five years ago. Pivotal day that stood out to me that I was like, "Okay, we are not on the same wavelength here and we want very different things in our travels." I think it's important to see the good and the bad when you travel. I think it's important to see the beautiful and the heart-breaking and to see the reality. Not shield yourself from some of those ugly heart-breaking things. I think that happens a lot when, not that I'm judging, resort vacations because I think there's a time and a place for it. But I encourage people, even if you do go on a resort vacation or an all-inclusive vacation, to get outside the walls and see the reality of where you are and have some appreciation for maybe the stark contrast between what you're experiencing and what locals are experiencing. I don't think it's a bad thing to have to see those things. I think you're missing the point sometimes if you don't at least acknowledge and experience it. No, absolutely. This world filled with so many incredible places and people and a lot of really sad things. It's all those things. It just matters what are we going to do with that? We can't change the world. We can't fix everything. We can't make someone their lifestyle different or beliefs or anything like that. It's just what do we do with that? That's just how powerful travel is to be able to help us kind of craft and mold this life. One life that we have to live to live it the best and be the best that we can. And to try to remember those experiences when you get home, I know somebody was just talking about, keep bringing up Cuba. That was my last trip and it was to express my mind, but how we see all these things in Cuba and then we get home and then it's like, why is my door dash taking an extra five minutes? They said they would be here five minutes ago. What is this guy doing? You know, and we all relate to that, right? We get home and then we're right back into Amazon that it was going to be here yesterday. And now it's today and I'm still waiting and it's like, okay, let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay. Remember. Yeah, it's hard to exist in our current world and then also have all of these travel experiences and to keep reminding ourselves and have that perspective. So you're now a mom to a two year old. How has that changed your relationship with travel? Do you still get that wanderlust itch? And also obviously if somebody who has traveled a lot, do you have a little bit of a bend there done that when it comes to seeing the world and you're kind of like, okay, now I'm good. Or do you still have that desire to go out and see new places? It's a really good question. But by everything, because I'm running the TCI and my travel has shifted for business purposes now, but then now that I'm a mom, it's, yeah, it's a lot of figuring out logistics as well. Obviously, there's going to be a point where like I want him to be able to experience and know what it's like now being an airport and being around other cultures and just seeing different parts of the world. Obviously, it's important. But this has been an entire shift for myself. I went from this independent solo backpacker traveling the world and figure out my life. To the pandemic happening, I got married, I had a kid, I have a house, I have a growing business. And now I feel like a lot of chains on top of me locking me down to things like I can't just pick up and go. And it's mostly because I have a child now. I can't just pick up and go and work from anywhere right now. Um, yes, right now I'm in Minnesota, but it takes a whole team of people, literally a whole team of people to take care of my child when I'm gone. And like, where is he staying in? Who's watching him next and who's, what shift is someone else covering? And so it's figuring a lot of that out, but it's been a real mine for me of how do I deal with this change in it? Because I do feel like a part of myself has been lost. Like a part of myself is that backpacker free spirit, go where I want to be on adventures all the time. And so what I've been trying to do recently has been just, I used to wear a lot of rings when I traveled and I would buy rings at different places or I'd have my earrings or something like that. So I've been trying to integrate some of these small things. My son found my bracelets and traveling, I would wear all like the braided bracelets that you would buy and stuff and he found them. And so I put one on the other day and gave me this feeling of life. So that's how it felt to be let's off back then. So it's like these little micro moments that I'm trying to like bring back these little habits that remind me of like this, this backpacker adventurous girl is still inside of me, despite, you know, everything else that I have gone on. So it's been a really, it's been a hard struggle. Yeah. It's a good and a bad thing to change in girl. Yeah. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for everything, but it's hard. It's such a change. It is hard. I mean, this could be a longer conversation. I know we're running out of time, but this grass is always greener mentality about living that travel life for people. You know, everyone thinks like, oh, wow, that must be so amazing. And it is, of course, I look at it must be so amazing to just be home and to sleep in the same bed every night and to not live out of a suitcase and to be able to just like focus and relax. I just watched TV this past weekend in I don't know three, four months. I sat on the couch and just did what I called normal people shit. And it was so nice. And for me, I'm like, that must, that must be so nice to be able to just do that whenever you want. So it's a reminder to people that it's okay to want both and it's okay to have one and want the other and miss one and still love the other. And it's all about finding that balance. Yeah, I always say like life is a journey just like traveling and like we just have to, you know, go with the flow and figure it out. And all we know, all we can do is what we can do. Yeah, we were just trying to do our best in this life. That's all. Yeah. Okay, so we're going to do our quick closing game, Sahara. So we're going to do a quick fire round on your 84 countries. So first question is what's the best food you've ever eaten and where? Well, honestly, it's like the fruit, the fruit in like the Philippines and Thailand and Asia, just how fresh and exotic the fruit is. I'm a big fruit person. So to have access to stuff that we don't really get to have access to here isn't incredible. They make smoothies. animal, just everything. This is probably going to be a lot of countries, but what country made you cry? Whether it was happy crying or sad crying a lot of time. I would say a big one was India. It's a huge culture shock. It's a huge sensory overload, everything. The poverty, this animal's always get me. So the sick animals, the sick dogs, the hurt dogs, anything with animals gets me and that was a big one. So all around India and Sri Lanka area, that was really hard for me. I relate to that one for sure. Friendliest people, this is a hard one. Everywhere. Good Lord. I call on my travel. People have helped me in ways they didn't know. I call my travel angels. So yeah, literally I recall a woman in a small town in France giving me a ride to an airport in the middle of nowhere and all I had to do was wait for her to finish her tiny cappuccino and that was the only time it was so happy like the drinks in France were so tiny because I was running out of time. Honestly, I think it's a good answer though. I think the moral of the story is especially because people have so many preconceived notions about what people are liking different countries and you can find evil everywhere, but you can find the most generous, kindest, friendliest, most beautiful people everywhere in every country. I don't think there is a one size fits all or that people are only friendly in certain places. I think they exist everywhere. You just have to find them. Most beautiful natural landscape. I would honestly say Iceland. I mean, there's I've seen some really beautiful places around this whole world, but Iceland is really stunning. I've been there several times and like it gets me every time every type of topography. You can think of this incredible there. The best city for solo female travelers anywhere that's not to our state. Oh no, that's a hard one. I'll just go back to my old to my Thailand ones just because like there's just so many women women who go there and you can find like your vibe of people and what part of Thailand you want to go to and what's the most overrated destination, which a lot of places. I think a lot of big cities. So like like Australia, solely because they're just a lot of big cities there. I'm not a big city person. So Sydney, I didn't really enjoy. I just and Athens too. I think people there's such a hype around it because of the the ruins, you know, outside of that, there's not very much else. And it's now is like the safest. Oh yeah. And then of course, I guess I think is highly overrated. Yeah. I didn't find people not that family there. Yeah. I think to your point, people just know these big cities because they're famous and popular for a reason to a point. But there's going to be really similar things in other cities that are just as good if not far better because they are not the water down version of that country. They're the more authentic version. And and you can get so many better experiences in that country in different places. If you're just open to going somewhere that's now on that typical, you know, tourist trail. Yeah. Most underrated destination places like Slovenia. Like I said, in the region, I took a bus for good things, pulling to the mountains of Slovenia or Slovakia. I'm sorry, but even Slovenia is beautiful too. Talk about bodies of water and stuff. Those are definitely underrated. People should go to them. Okay. You can only revisit three of your 84 countries for the rest of your life, which three would they be. I would do a obviously Thailand, the Philippines. I love the Philippines and Japan because I can't live without sushi. Yeah. Those are good ones. Okay. Where can people find more about you if they want to follow along on your journey, learn more about the travel coach network. You can find the travel coach network across all the platforms at the travel coach network or the travel coach network.com or you can find me. I'm Sahara Rose, the travel coach on all the platforms. Amazing. Sahara was so wonderful talking to you. I'm glad I got to learn about just stuff about you that I didn't know before you there. So it was really cool to connect to and hopefully we'll talk soon. Yeah. Thank you so much, Laura Fab and me. That's all for this episode of Type 2 Travel. If you're loving these conversations, hit subscribe or follow. Give us a five star rating and share with your adventure seeking friends. Remember the best stories rarely come from staying in your comfort zone. Until next time, this is Laura Eric center reminding you that your passport is collecting dust. Your PTO is hiling up and the world is out there waiting for you to explore it.