Understanding The Nuances Of Animal Behavior | SOP Ep. 118 - Dr. Carlo Siracusa

Welcome to Speaking of Pets. I'm Dr. Alice Novotny-Jeroman, a board-certified veterinary dermatologist. And I'm not. I'm Janet Novotny-King, the doctor's sister, podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer, and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode created just for you and your pets. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Janet, did you know that there are specialists in animal behavior in veterinary medicine? Thank goodness, because I've seen some pretty bad behavior out there on my walks with Libby, who is perfect, by the way, very well-behaved. Well, I am so thankful that Dr. Carlos Siracusa, who is past president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, is joining us today. And rarely do I read anyone's bio, because it's just. seems to turn people off. But this is such an interesting bio that I am actually going to read it, and I promise I won't take very long. Dr. Siracusa obtained his veterinary degree from the University of Messina, Italy. Hope I'm saying that correctly. And his PhD from the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Spain, where his thesis was on perioperative stress in dogs and the effect of pheromone therapy, which we will talk about what pheromones are, Janet. Mm-hmm. He completed his residency in animal behavior at the School of Veterinary Medicine at Penn, where he has then stayed on to be an associate professor of clinical animal behavior and welfare, and the director of the animal behavior service at Penn, at University of Pennsylvania Vet School. He's board-certified with the American College of Veterinary Behaviors, of which I mentioned, and also the European College of Animal Welfare and Behavior. His interests lie in canine stress evaluation and control, dog and cat temperament evaluation. Um, prognostic factors and treatment outcomes of behavior problems, and behavior and cognitive changes in dogs with physical changes. I just, I just find that fascinating. So I'm going to shut up because we have so many questions that viewers have put in about animal behavior that I want to get right to Dr. Siracusa and hit him up with these questions. Right, Janet? That's right. Wait, I want to say buongiorno. Buongiorno. Oh, welcome, Dr. Siracusa. Thank you so much for taking time. To spend with us. Very nice to be here with you. Oh, thank you. Well, let's start with this because I represent like the voice of the pet owners, which I'm sure you all like to hear you, Dr. Siracusa. Well, Dr. Siracusa and I would be talking about all the people that we have as mutual friends, like Dr. Barb Simpson. Special shout out to her if she's listening, by the way. How is the work of a veterinary behaviorist different than a trainer? Yes, that's a good question. And I think many people, including people that approach us to ask for an appointment, they don't have an initial understanding of what the difference is, right? So our job is not mainly and not only doing training that is using behavior modification, to change the behavior of a dog. That is, we are not always the professionals that actually execute the plan that are side by side on an everyday basis with our clients, telling them, "Do this, do this, do this other," right? It's a little bit like the eye doctor and the optician that makes the glasses. So we work on a comprehensive evaluation of a dog or a cat or other species, if you work with other species. And first, we try to understand what is the undesired behavior. Is it a behavior problem in the sense that it's something that the owners do not like, but it's not necessarily an abnormal behavior, or is it an abnormal behavior, right? And once we have determined this, and we formulate our diagnosis, then we discuss the prognosis and the treatment. One of the components of the treatment is the behavior modification, the training. And we said, in what circumstances, for example, would it help to use this type of training, how to use it? And then we pair it with changes in the environment. So make these changes in your household, or make the environment more comfortable, create a safe haven for the animal. And the third component, which is actually the one that only veterinarians can do, is see if there is, one, a physical disease component. That is, if the dog is behaving in a certain way or the cat is behaving a certain way because it's actually not feeling well. And this is becoming more and more relevant. And that's the thing in human psychiatry. We understand now that a lot of behaviors that we as people show or that our pets show, they are really due to an unbalanced process in our body, right? Something that is causing some form of disease. And this disease shows up also with a behavior change. And the other aspect that only veterinarians can do is is drug prescription. Depending on what the underlying cause is, it can be a behavior drug prescription or another type of drug. For example, if we think that the behavior change is mostly due to pain, then in that case, I would better prescribe an analgesic rather than prescribing a behavior-modifying drug. Let's say there are many, many medications that are at the intersection of all this. They not only have a, for example, immune-mediating component, but they also have behavior effects. And this is becoming clear and prevalent also in other specialties, not just in behaviors. There are, for example, many immune modulators that now are used also for the treatment of some immune problems, including in human medicine. And now, actually, there is a lot of media attention for these new drugs that people take mostly for weight control, but they also have all other series of effects. And in fact, for example, behavior-modifying components of these drugs, like, for example, for treatment of addiction, they are now under investigation. So it's really a complex system. And I think the difference, to go back to the original question, the difference between the veterinarian and the trainer is that the veterinarian can appreciate all these intersections, all this complex environment, while the trainer is more focused on the execution of their behavior modification. Let's say there are some veterinary behaviorists that are also great trainers, but that's a separate thing. So, okay, in cats and dogs, because, quite frankly, cats kind of do their own thing, what are the most common behavioral issues with cats and with dogs? I'm going to say for cats, I'm going to vote for peeing outside the litter box. Yes, and actually, you're right. It's a pisser. It really depends what data you look into and who you ask this question. So, for example, for us, as a referral service, we see a lot of complicated cases, and not just complicated from a medical standpoint, but also with another complication, which is liability. So, this means a lot of aggression cases. So, cases that come with a risk for the owner and the doctor, they are usually referred to a specialist, because many times, actually, we are involved in court cases, and we have to testify as expert witnesses if the dog, for example, bites someone. So, in our service, we see a lot of the aggression and complicated cases. of other problems such as separation anxiety aggression between dogs for cats it is inappropriate elimination in general the most frequent problem but actually we don't see a lot of cases of inappropriate elimination because primary care veterinarians are actually now very good at treating this type of problems also because there are some drugs that are really helpful and specifically inappropriate elimination in cats is one of the problems that respond best to drug treatment so we don't see a lot of this usually people are able to treat this before reaching out to us so for cats i would say one thing that we are seeing more and more are um abnormal repetitive behaviors self-mutilation so yeah excessive chewing control for example of the skin or what what commonly is called psychogenic alopecia but it's really there's there's way more there than just just a behavioral component we see also cases of aggression for cats so i'll say these are our most common problems but if you look at the general population i would say an appropriate elimination for cats and separation anxiety for dogs are probably the big two together with all rainbow of different types of aggression some of them are mild and are treated by the general practitioners or a trainer some others are more complex and require our intervention you know i remember having a six month old west island white terrier and it was brought in for skin disease of some sort and we had it on the exam table and i was in my i was on one side my technician was the other it was a young father that owned the dog and they had children and i opened its mouth to look you know i was doing a physical and i got to tell you dr syracuse it went for me i had a very quick technician that clamped down on the dog and and the owner was horrified because you know he has little kids and i thought to myself gosh at six months of age if this dog is doing this and so in a case like that can can that be can that be remedied i mean i worried about that dog after that with those children wow uh well definitely the um time of first onset of symptoms of aggression it makes a difference so we typically see uh the first signs of aggression one year of age between one and two years of age this is when dogs uh start to become to approach social maturity and so they go from a puppy-like behavior to a more adult-like behavior um an earlier onset typically not always but but in many cases it's also associated with a worse prognosis so this is the fact that happened that early yeah uh might already be um an element for concern of course i will not say that uh that dog is uh there's nothing we can do for for for that dog but definitely the fact that this happened early it's already something that i will keep in mind and consider that then the signs tend to be worse with time and then the signs tend to be worse with time around two years of age three years of age if a six months the dog is already attempting to bite is this going to get worse right around three years of age now um whether this transfer to other contexts for example if there are kids in the family it depends there's no no immediate transfer between aggression for example towards unfamiliar people and members of the family or even less aggression towards dogs other dogs and people that said what is important to find is what is the underlying temperament of that puppy is it because to begin with is a very nervous and anxious individual and then if we see that an animal is very anxious and nervous and there's problems uh coming down settling i then i will be more worried that the aggression is going to show up in different contexts but let's say if if that one was a was an incident in which the puppy felt well here i'm in trouble i don't know if i'm going to survive and and act defensively in that context but then outside of that context things are fine i don't see the dog being uh worried uh then my prognosis will be better but if if that puppy is very anxious in general then i will be a little bit more concerned so it really depends it's on a case-by-case analysis what can we do uh again it depends on the case a lot of aggression most aggression which is associated with negative emotions like fear anxiety stress a lot of aggression can be managed but cannot be cured and we try to work with the family on creating a safe environment and minimizing the possibility that a bite may occur again uh however there are cases in which we can actually completely remove the aggression if we identify a specific trigger or maybe um for example let's let's go back to the to the example that that you shared with us but instead of being a six months old puppy it's an older dog where we have the possibility to have some uh tooth decay for example sure if this is related to pain right and we can treat that pain is removed aggression is not bad right so the prognosis is variable but i will say that when it is associated with uh temperamental anxiety fear stress then usually we manage the aggression we don't cure the aggression what about neutering i mean you've heard you know old school was oh if you get him a male dog oh if you get him neutered he won't be as aggressive is is that is there any truth to that uh no no or there is a very small part of truth that is okay most most aggression uh like the one that we just discussed uh which is related to anxiety fear is not influenced by neutering at all uh very specific type of aggression for example if they are related to a sexual arousal right so for example uh being aggressive with other uh male dogs this might be this might be affected but in general um this is not the case does it stop him from marking everything does neutering help with that yeah neutering is good for marking it's good for roaming if you have a dog that tends to escape so for example if uh uh if your dog is a problem because uh he escapes and uh and while he's uh out not under your control he shows some aggression to other people or animals then neutering it would help not because he's not under your control but it shows some aggression to other people or animals then neutering it would help it eliminates the aggression but because it decreases the roaming so the probability that your dog will escape uh is lower so in some cases it can help but the majority of the time it does not help however if a dog has uh uh what we call affective aggression this is aggression that is associated with negative emotions because negative emotions they also have a heritable component we do recommend neutering and spaying anyway right especially for male dogs that can reproduce many many many times and generate a lot of puppies many times you have these gorgeous looking dogs that people don't want to neuter because they are very good morphologically they meet a superb standard for the breed and they will make tons of puppies and they will generate puppies with a propensity to be prone to strain and that's why they're so important for neutering and spaying because they are very good morphologically they meet a superb standard for the breed and they will make tons of puppies and they will generate puppies with a propensity to be prone to strain prone to stress or fear or anxiety and this is a problem so we we usually do recommend neutering in any case hope you're enjoying today's speaking of pets podcast every week we feature a board-certified specialist, dermatology, oncology, internal medicine, orthopedic surgery, ophthalmology, dentistry, you name it. 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Thanks to Speaking of Pets podcast for all they do. Now, let's get back to the show. So how, as a pet owner, if a dog's aggression or misbehavior, if you will, how do I know if it's caused by pain? Oh, that's a complicated question because I would say traditionally, as veterinarians, we have been trained to think to pain as something that is very evident, right? That we, I don't know, we do, we pull the leg, we do a little bit of a hip extension and we hear some yelping or screaming or turning around and trying to bite. But first of all, not all dogs, even when they are experiencing acute pain, not all dogs, they react this way, because they actually, they may, they might think, I, I, if I show my pain, I'm even more vulnerable, right? So I might just freeze and not, and not show anything, in a certain sense, like playing dead. And, and see if I can survive this, this challenge. Here's something we love about Dr. Tim's pet food. Every formula starts with a question. Does this actually help the animal not just look good on a shelf? Dr. Tim has spent decades as a working vet, and that experience shows up across the entire product line. Whether your dog is a little overweight and needs a healthy balanced food to help shed a few pounds, or could be a picky eater who won't touch their breakfast without Dr. Tim's vagabond freeze-dryer. Dr. Or just a regular couch companion who deserves real nutrition in every bowl. Speaking of pets is committed to bringing you science-based information and partners that align with that mission. And Dr. Tim's is a great example of nutrition done right for every pet, not just the athletic ones. Head to Dr. Tim's pet food to find the formula that fits your pet's life. So a lot of dogs, they would just freeze and become stiff and not show as if they are in a toothpaste. But even worse, a lot of aggression is actually associated with chronic pain, not with acute pain. I always think to myself as an aging human, you start to have a lot of crankiness here and there. So the back some days doesn't really help. Another day, the knees are not helping. However, I'm not in such an amount of pain. That I cannot do my job. I will still come to the office, do my work. And actually, if I put pressure, if I apply pressure on my lower back, I don't scream. I actually feel better, right? Pressure will help me with the pain. So this type of pain is more difficult to detect. And in fact, there are all type of scales now that rather than relying on what we can do during the vet, appointment, they rely on what the owner sees at home. So we do ask a lot of questions to the owner and we ask how the mobility is affected. So is the dog able to change position effortlessly, right, at night, for example? Or does he go up and down the stairs quickly? Does he jump on and off the bed? And this type of behavior is actually the most common. There have been some studies that have been found to be more important than our traditional idea of high-pitched vocalization or aggression in detecting pain in both dogs and cats. So this is why I'm very, very convinced of the importance of behavior, not just as a specialty in veterinary medicine, but as an approach in general, because a lot of science, they will show us mild to moderate behavior changes, not something spectacular. And we have to actively question the owner because many people think, oh, it's normal, it's just getting old, right? So we really have to ask. And sometimes, we even found something very interesting in a couple of studies that we published. They were not specific. They were specific about pain. They were more generic on chronic inflammatory disease, like skin disease and GI disease. And we found that some of the behaviors to monitor are not negative behavior. They're actually positive behaviors that animals might even be more affectionate, right? They might tend to spend more time by the -- by the owner. Why? Because we are their secure base. In a certain sense, they are asking for support and for help. So if we just ask, how is your dog or cat doing? Oh, it's great. It's like, it's always glued to me. But this might not necessarily be a good science for the physical health. So we have all these type of skills, and we are working -- on improving and talking about Dr. Sherman. NC State is doing a lot, lot of progress now under the leadership of Dr. Gruen. Like, they're doing a lot of progress on this front and creating these questionnaires for pet owners that can help detect pain. Are there things that pet owners shouldn't do? That affect the behavior of their pets? Ooh, that's a loaded question. In general or more specifically? Well, I'm saying, like, what could I be doing wrong with my dog that might cause -- Like, with separation anxiety, when you come home and they've ripped the trim from around the door, of course the human's going to, like, freak out. But that probably doesn't do the pet any good. Yeah, absolutely. I would say the most important recommendation, which is sort of an umbrella recommendation for everything, is let's not assume we know what our pets are thinking or the way in which they work. We come from a different evolutionary process. We belong to different species. So to understand animals, we need to understand the animals. We need to study their behavior. That is -- and I'm not saying that pet owners should do science on -- Now there is also citizen science. They are involved in a lot of studies. But that said, it's more about trying to read reputable sources, right? Yeah, yes. And there is some science and there is some good science. So do not rely on what you find. Not non-documented online source, or even watch a TV show, like try to go for reputable sources. And the same way in which now we do for babies and very young children, we try to understand how they work. We do not assume that we know, or they are just very simple creature. We have to understand that we know, or they are just very simple creatures. And in the 80s, it was very interesting because I was -- when I was working on my Ph.D., I was actually shocked to find that until the late 70s, early 80s, a lot of surgeries in infants were done without analgesia because it was thought that their pain pathways were not mature. And in the 80s, it was very interesting because I was -- when I was working on my Ph.D., I was actually shocked to find that until the late 70s, early 80s, I was actually shocked to find that they were not complaining. the birth of a child we go to school to learn uh how our child works what is safe what is not safe the same has to be done for our pets absolutely there is now a lot of information out there that can be helpful uh if you don't know where to find this information reach out to your vet and ask. The vet then, if he doesn't have a source, might contact a specialist and ask for a book recommendation. So that's an umbrella recommendation. And once we've covered this, a lot of problems will be easier to prevent or at least detect the problem early. Before it becomes compound, too severe, right? So, for example, in the case of separation anxiety, we should think that for the ancestor of dogs, right? The wolf, living in community, it was normal. That is, if I live in a group, I'm always living with my group. So my dead wolf, it doesn't have to go to the office from nine to five, right? I'm always living with them. So then what we did with selection, we twisted this social behavior and oriented it towards people. But this being separated and reunited continuously, within a social group, it might be difficult to handle for many dogs. I never thought of that. Yeah, we really have to set up the environment to make it easier for them. We need to provide them with a safe spot and minimize all the scary things that might happen to them. So the loud noises, because a dog might be fine at the beginning, then one day there is a storm, there's no one there to help the dog, and the dog is like, oh, when I'm alone, I'm lost, right? If something happens, I don't know what to do. So if we know this in advance, we can prevent part of the problems, at least. And for cats, I have to say, it's even more important, because cats are seen as small dogs, and they are not. They are a completely different creature. And in a certain sense, more complicated, because they are not as big as dogs in communicating what they feel. Why? For the same reason, their ancestor is actually a solitary individual. So if I don't live with anyone, why should I waste time and energy complaining about stuff, right? So it's like I just suck it up, jump on the, I don't know, the drawer chest, and don't say anything. I'm really pissed off. And they just look annoyed all the time. Yeah, yeah, because it's like. They look annoyed, pissed off, just like. But you know, Janet, think of this. When you take a cat to the vet, like when someone brings a cat to you, Dr. Syracuse, it's so different than a dog with behavior problems, because a dog, you can see it's not confident, the tail is tucked. Cats don't want to be taken out of that house. So I can't imagine you having, examining a cat for behavior issues in the. in your office, because they're not going to act normal anyway. Yeah, yeah. We do. Contrarily to what people may think, we rely less on what we see during the appointment and more on what the owner reports. This is why the appointments tend to be very long. Yeah. Because we have all this questioning and asking about this detail, that detail. Then maybe if we don't have the details, we recommend to keep a diary and share it. That's what we do with our. Or video. Or video. Or video. Now everyone goes around with their phone, right? So it became a lot easier. Yes, you're right. The cat might say, okay, you know what? I stay in my little carrier. Maybe when I'm home, I don't want to get into the carrier, because there I have better places to be. But here, my carrier is the safest place where I can stay. And there's no way I'm going to come out of here. Let me tell you, when I have to put, our cats into the carrier, I literally have to put like long rubber gloves on. The fireplace gloves. And I find if I put the hatch up, most listeners are going to think of this, and I put butt first in, they don't know where they're going. So it's a process. Now, not to pick on any breed of dog, but I just want to give my opinion was, after practicing for 30 years, to me, the German Shepherd breed, has gotten to be more anxious, inability to keep weight on. Show me one of those good older German Shepherds that comes in and, you know, they're just kind of like a good family dog. But I have to say, I'm not seeing that anymore. I'd love your opinion on that, Dr. Syracuse. Well, it's very interesting that you mentioned this, because there is actually a study, they've been published into separate papers, that they looked at the breed with the most, behavioral problems, behavioral pathologies and physical pathologies. And the German Shepherd is on top of both. And, however, this doesn't, this is not replicated in other studies. For example, there are studies that show that small dogs, like what people who call the hippy yappy little dogs, so your Chihuahua, your Jack Russell, or a terrier, like they are really high in this ranking of behavior problems. So, but German Shepherds, definitely, they are a breed that comes with a lot of problems. And why? Well, just think how a wolf was and think how a German Shepherd is, right? Mm-hmm. Especially a show animal, a very fancy show animal. Look at the back, look at the heaps. Staying always in that posture. I would not be surprised if there is some of what we discussed at the beginning. Yes. Some chronic discomfort, right? Excessive strain put onto muscles, joints, which also comes with chronic inflammation. Mm-hmm. Which now we know it is a cause also of behavior changes. So, I think the extreme selection that we did to some breeds definitely is not helping. Right. That said, we see a lot of mixed breeds in our service for behavior problems too. So, but mixed breed is not, is still not a wolf, right? Even a mixed breed. Mm-hmm. But in the end, it comes from dogs that have gone through an artificial selection process. So they might have similar type of problems. So I personally, I would find reasonable to not necessarily follow these extreme standards for beauty. Mm-hmm. But follow standards that lead us to healthy animals. Yeah. From, from both a behavioral and physical standpoint. Other countries, I have to say, they are doing a better job at this. So England is very proactive. Mm-hmm. Or Belgium, but here we're, it's more of a customer based. Yeah. If there is demand, there is supply, then there might be less attention to this. But things are changing. I think awareness of people, it is improving. Like a lot of people now are very knowledgeable about what makes their dog healthy or sick. A little bit like for humans, right? Everyone is becoming more self-aware, especially about aging. What makes me live longer? And the same is happening for our pets. So hopefully there will be more and more. Mm-hmm. And more attention to this matter. What about the future of, of animal behaviorists? Like what excites you? What studies are out there that you have an interest in? So it is actually a very good time to be an animal behaviorist. The same way it is a very good time to be a human neuroscientist. Yeah. It's, there is a lot of interest now for the mechanisms behind our behavior. And the same way it is a very good time to be a human neuroscientist. Yeah. Yeah. in our wellness in general. So it's the same for for pets, there is a lot of attention now, and that's my personal interest now, the interaction between physical and behavioral health that is not just linked to the typical separation anxiety problem or inappropriate elimination, but having a more comprehensive approach. What can I do to give my cat or dog a good life, right? And maybe a longer life. When it comes to feeding our pets, we believe in results you can see over hype. And that's exactly why we're proud to partner with Dr. Tim's Pet Food. Dr. Tim Hunt is a practicing veterinarian who spent decades formulating nutrition for every kind of pet, from the laid-back lap dog to his own Iditarod sled team. Check out. Dr. Tim's Pet Food and see what science-backed nutrition looks like for your pet. They'll have a shiny coat, more energy, healthy weight, and more. Because every great adventure, even a nap on the couch, starts with a healthy pet. So I think it's a good time, and a lot of research, also pharmacological and psychopharmacological research. It is embracing this concept that drugs don't have, or don't always have, or most of the time don't have a very compartmentalized effect. They have an effect on the body, and there are many things that happens when we take a drug. And so we should look for every drug, what the effect is. And artificial intelligence is helping, because it's very good at finding these patterns right now. Yeah. It was a problem before analyzing multiple data. We were collecting data, but we were limited in our analysis. But now, AI is going to help with this. And another fascinating frontier is being able to read the body language more accurately thanks to AI. So what is the best way to do that? What is the best way to understand what a dog, or a cat, or a horse, or a cow are thinking or experiencing? Ask them. But how do we ask them? We have to watch these countless hours of videos and see how they respond to certain conditions. And before, it was very difficult. I did this for my thesis, PhD thesis, and it was a nightmare, because I had two hours of videos for about 60 dogs to analyze. Oh my god. Oh my god. On a TV and a piece of paper. On a piece of paper. So we're very primitive by today's standards. And a VHS. So what is the most interesting animal you've worked with? I have to say, very recently, actually, I worked with gorillas. Oh, wow. And it was so cool, because -- Was it gorilla aggression? Or what was the -- It was -- they were family issues. Oh, wow. And I was very interested in gorillas. a lot of them had GI issues absolutely and I always wondered are they like not feeling well and that's why they're acting the way they are because a lot of them Dr. Siracusa the owners couldn't keep weight on them they were very anxious very stressed if you will yeah and we know now that actually everything is connected yeah the all the bacteria that are in in in the guts of a dog but also a person are contributing to behavior they are creating metabolites that then will some of them would pass into the brain and actually influence behavior or or determine the concentration of acidity specific neurotransmitter that will influence a specific behavior so who we are is not actually determined only by us I always tell the students we like to think that we can decide everything about our life but it's not always true all these little bugs that live on us or inside us they have a say too they are producing a lot of little bricks that I don't know about you Dr. Siracusa that will influence the way in which our body respond the response to the to the environment so so yeah that we go back to what we're saying before it's so important to keep physical health and mental health all in the same bucket and make sure that we have a comprehensive approach so that German Shepherd will have is it gastrointestinal health supported so it can be less anxious and they have a better skin for example right do you ever see that probiotics help because I know in one of the companies that did a study I think Mike Lappin did it and they any found that it could help these anxious dogs I just wonder wanted your opinion on that so there are there are studies that show that there are differences in the macro biome this this bacteria in our gut between anxious and non-anxious animal aggressive and non-aggressive animals so there is an influence of this bacteria it is a little bit more complicated to find exactly the formula right what is the good macro biome right also because it's very difficult when it comes to behavior especially it's very difficult to have a phenotype of a behavior that is to really map the behavior of an individual however I do think that probiotics can influence the behavior of an animal today's episode is sponsored by dr. Tim's pet food until next time keep asking questions keep learning and keep loving your pets learn more at dr. Tim's calm there are studies the one that you mentioned which is actually about us a specific bacteria that is called but before the bacterium longum and that bacteria the bacterium different strains in different species they've been found to you improve stress-related behavior not just in dogs but also in other species so there is some truth into this in fact I do use probiotics for my own cats they are not this very selective probiotics because this one is only this strain I use this large spectrum probiotics also because my cat is one of those it's like the German Shepherd's that you were saying before oh she needs she tend to have colitis so okay and and and the probiotics are helping yeah of course it's an N of one right it's my cat I can write a study on my cat but I find it uh I personally found it useful she used to bite me now she's not oh that's enough so you know Janet I know what question you're going to ask Dr siracusa what what pets he has I know what pets do you have so we have the cat with the GI issue and the biting as of now is she's the only one okay oh yeah her name is Elsa uh he's actually she was actually a co-worker because she's one of our following cat here in a pen and then I brought it home yeah uh and um yeah I I I I had plenty of cats in my life I was actually a cat breeder oh really yeah of what breed um when I was I was still living in India this was a long time ago um I was breeding Persians um British folds and British short hair oh my gosh now with with what I know now I will be a better advocate as a breeder for example to be very careful when we breed cats like Scottish ones which are super cute and they are so nice and well behaved but they have tons of health problems yeah uh because they are nice and super cute yeah they are nice and super cute but they have uh let's remember that this mutation this change in the body is related to a change in their uh anatomical structure right and many times it's not only what we see in the ears there might be other problems but but my my Scottish phones they were the cutest thing I I love British Shorter because they are a right balance is uh is a protected breed already that is it's uh it's nice and Chunky and uh cheeky and but but at the same time it's still quite healthy because we didn't really uh smash their face or right right you're such a cat dad well this Alice we got to wrap it up this could keep going this is fascinating and I'd love to get to the bottom of my cat Atticus's problem but we'll go that's that's that's in the next session right that's like he just doesn't like me but I gotta ask you our guest question Dr Syracuse oh okay what is your pet or human peeve like what annoys you about pets or what annoys you about humans one thing uh but people don't put their blinker on so pads I'll say that uh I am more as you correctly say I'm more of a cat person yeah uh uh something that annoys me personally but it's not that I that I don't uh like in general uh are dogs that um Splash all that saliva here and there oh the wet ones yeah I know what you're talking about even if my one of my favorite breeds is actually uh Newfoundland new face but they do a lot of this yeah they're messy yeah so it it annoys me especially at the beginning when I was coming oh well dressed at work and to see patients during my residency uh my mentor said like you should come with dress and then you had this dog that was flashing all this stuff so that's that's something the cats um I I'm much more tolerant not a lot of spitting with cats you know they're pretty no no no no no not a lot of spitting um and there's a maybe the the the vomiting that they do like when they oh that's true you have a Persian or a cat that in just a lot of bears uh that you hear there's nothing you can do because maybe you're on a zoom call but you're here yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well thank you so much this has been incredible we appreciate the amazing work you do it's really fast thank you it's I know I you know what I my conclusion of after talking with Dr Syracuse is we need to step back and look at the animal of let them be an animal their Heritage and what like he said dogs lived in packs and now we get one and put them in the house and then we go somewhere yeah I mean we that we have to not not try to fit them into our life we have to understand their life and that as even as a veterinarian I never that is fascinating yeah yeah yeah and thank you this is probably also think in advance before you want another dog right and right see what this might mean yes everyone involved including the pet right thank you so much thanks for listening today don't forget to share like and love us because we love to hear from you you can send your questions in our website. We love those. So send them in. And Dr. Siracusa, it has been a pleasure. Thank you.