Speaker 1I've I've always, I've always, um, got a lot of my information from podcasts, like a lot of self-help mental health, um, health and fitness stuff. Um, so I just, I've wanted to find a way to get back and I was in treatment again this, this past. So I'm almost at six months again, which is a miracle. Thank you. Um, I went to a place in Aurora for treatment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of, uh, I went to the States twice before that. And I've since learned that, um, it wasn't because of the quality that they sent me there. Yeah. It was because I couldn't escape and come back home easier, uh, which is, which is very valid because when I went to this last time, uh, I did leave because I was like fed up with the, all the, um, I don't know. I took my will back, I think. Right. It wasn't good enough for me, the treatment center. Right.
Speaker 2Well, especially if you've been to some good ones.
Speaker 1It's tough.
Speaker 2The family disease. Yeah. Good for you.
Speaker 1Yeah. Thank you. Um, thanks so much, Susan, for coming down. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I was. Uh, referred your name by a, um, fellow member of recovery and he mentioned that, you know, I had to have you on and then you show up here and I'm like, I know you, I've seen you before, which is like, it's an amazing thing about recovery, right? It is. You hang out long enough and you start to see some familiar faces. Right. Um.
Speaker 2And there's that sense of community and belonging. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1It's like, uh, I always say it's, you know, it says in our, in the, in literature that, uh, we're like the, the, the surviving members of a Titanic. Right. We all have that common peril where no matter where I go, uh, I see people that are in recovery and I'm just, there's that like. Yeah. So much.
Speaker 2It doesn't have to be explained. Yeah. It's like you just, oh, okay.
Speaker 1Yeah. I know what you've been through, even though I don't know anything about you. Right. I know that you've suffered to some degree and now you have a common, a solution. Right. And a way out. So, uh, I just want to kick off with this before I start letting you introduce yourself because the show's not about me, even though I like to think that it is. Um, you, we talking, you know, talking about the camaraderie and the, the, uh, community I was in Vancouver this past weekend for, uh, the, an international conference. There was a bunch of alcoholics together, 35,000 to be exact. And, uh, I'm a little bit emotionally hung over from it because it's a lot, right. There's a lot of, you know, there was people there. Um, they did this thing where they took a bunch of names of, of people that had 50 plus years of sobriety to go up and speak and they pulled them out of a hat, 12 people, uh, they had. Said that there was over 200 people there with 50 plus years of sobriety.
Speaker 2That's incredible.
Speaker 1Like it blew my mind. Right. And I feel like there's a point in my sobriety where I've been pissed at that. And I'm like, I can't relate to these people, but you know, I was taught in recovery to just listen for the similarities and not the differences. And I can tell you right now, every single person that started talking, I was like, huh? Yeah. Felt that way. Yep. Did that. Wow. That helped, you know, um, a lot of them talked. The, the, the thing that I got from the conference, if there was, you know, one theme overarching theme, it was service. That was the thing I kept hearing over and over again, that these guys and girls, these people never stopped working with newcomers and new alcoholics and people struggling. Right. And that was powerful for me because, uh, the thing that these conferences can do is they can make you reflect on yourself and like, am I doing this right? Where are the gaps in my program? Because I don't want to go back out there again. Like I really don't.
Speaker 2It's a mirror. It's a mirror to, and all the people it takes to put on a convention of that size. Right.
Speaker 1Yeah. They're all wearing pink shirts. There was like thousands of them. Yeah. They stood out. Right. So, uh, yeah, I just wanted to share that because it was, you know, if you're listening, there's a lot of people out there that are going through this all ages, all, um, ethnicities, all religions. Um, and it's a beautiful thing. You know, they, they've been through, somebody has been through what you've been through. If not worse, I've found, you know, there's somebody has gone through it. And, and battled through it. Right.
Speaker 2Yeah. Experts at all levels. Yeah.
Speaker 1So, um, I'm really excited to talk about this today. Uh, you're in recover yourself and you've written a book, which I love the cover of. I haven't gotten a chance to dive into it yet because I just got it the other day, but I'm excited to read this. Um, my wife even said to me, she goes, cause she, she always wants to, she's like, you need to have more people on that. Talk about the family. Right. Because she still needs help. She's been, she's been through a lot. Right. She's, uh, watched me go through a lot of. She's seen me at my high, you know, in the seven years that I had of, of, uh, sobriety and recovery. And then she's been through the lows and stuck by me. Right. Wow. And she, she gets a lot out of this. So, um, I'm excited to talk about this, but your book is called what's wrong with my teen. And, um, it's about finding and answers to teenage addiction and family crisis. I think this is so important. I'm so happy that we're going to talk about the same. I'm happy that you wrote this.
Speaker 2It's really excited to be here and talk about it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And talk with you.
Speaker 1Yeah. So I'm going to shut up now because, uh, I really want to hear from you. Why don't you start off with, um, a little bit about your story and what brought you into recovery to, in the first place?
Speaker 2Sure. Well, my name is Susan Raphael and today I'm a mental health and addiction clinician in a small private practice in Toronto. And I've been working in this profession for over 20 years. Uh, and it came on the back of studying psychology when I was younger. And I always had those questions trying to really trying to understand myself and how I didn't feel like I fit in the world. And academia was an easy place to kind of hide with all my ideas and all my creativity and curiosity. Um, and at the same time I had the double life where I was going out. Yeah. And I was using chemicals from a pretty young age, like 16 and drinking, and it was all in the facilitation of going out and having fun and dancing and, uh, back up a bit. I had an eating disorder to start with. So that was ever since I can remember, I was using my body to change the way that I felt and then using substance to change the way that I felt. So I came into recovery in 99. I had been. Uh, on skid row in the downtown lower east side of Vancouver, homeless in shelters for the better part of a year, a year and a half. And I'm so grateful for that system and the policemen that offered help and the policemen that were consequential and handcuffed me and threw me in the back of a paddy wagon and brought me to a shelter one night because they determined I was the problem. And, uh, I'm grateful for the services. That I had to get me eventually back on my feet. It was family who interceded, intervened and brought me back to Toronto and I still drink for a couple more years. Drugs were a part of my story in and out, really in the facilitation of drinking more. And when I couldn't do drugs anymore, I realized how much of alcohol dependent I was. I started having seizures in and out of hospital, emergency rooms problems. I mean, unemployable, right? Um, and took a lot of hostages and was taken hostage and et cetera, et cetera. So all of the things that we hear about, and I had the opportunity to go to detox and heard about a treatment center. And that time I stayed in detox. I don't know what made that time different, but I stayed and I, uh, I learned that I wasn't a bad person. I was a sick person. And with all the psychology. And self-knowledge I had that wasn't, um, that was really comforting because I realized I felt like a bad person and I had a lot of shame and guilt and remorse. Like how did a nice girl like me end up on Skid Row? There was a huge gap from where I, I started to where I ended up, um, and I've been thankful to be sober ever since I've struggled with other things in 26 and a half years. But, um, I had to get the eating disorder in check and learn to have relationships and, but I've been grateful to have a program of recovery and be in long-term recovery, uh,
Speaker 1since then. That's amazing.
Speaker 2Wow. It really is such a simple solution for such complicated individuals who think we're so
Speaker 1unique. Yeah. Nobody's like me.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1Nobody understands me. If you, you know, you didn't go to Skid Row, so you're not like me. Right. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me.
Speaker 2You're not like me. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. Yeah. You're not like me. direct me into into better choices, healthier choices. And that was a great place to be in early recovery. And that that kind of ignited my interest in being a counselor. I always wanted to be a counselor since I was a little kid. I was the listener. I was the quiet one who was listening and asking questions. And then I was the bartender and I was listening and asking questions over the bar. So it's a it was a dream come true to start helping people and getting certified and getting all the necessary things in order in order to counsel and help others. So what made you choose
Speaker 1the family path dealing with loved ones of addicts instead of sticking with, you know, just the
Speaker 2addicts? Yeah, it's a great question. Because when I was deciding what I wanted to do in terms of counseling, people would say to me that I had to choose I had to either be working with the family or working with the, you know, substance use disordered individual. And I liked both. And when I started working with young people, I really liked working with young people. I related to that I related to being that teenager in crisis because I was a teen in crisis silently. And I'd meet I started working in an aftercare role and working with these teenagers who had come back from treatment programs. And sometimes young adults too. I use teenager quite loosely since the brain still developing till we're 25 or so. And so so that ignited my my passion for working with teens. And working with parents was more challenging for me. Although I was a loved one myself, most of the people I was in relationship with prior to getting into recovery had addiction issues. So I was, I was, I understood what it was like. And I dated some in, in my early days in recovery and people that relapsed. And so I did family programming for myself, I went to Al-Anon support and saw, you know, that family perspective of we can't control it. We can't cure it. And we didn't cause it, right? It's not our fault, because there's so much guilt. So eventually, I sort of transitioned into wanting to work with the family piece and that family system is so important. As you said in the promo yesterday for this podcast, it's a family disease. It's a family disorder. And it's a family recovery too, for those that choose it. And really the title of the book, What's Wrong With My Teen, it's a hook to because perhaps there's something wrong with everyone. It's not just the pain. And if we're willing to courageously look at our part in things, and how we might be part of the system, not necessarily the problem, but a system. And family is a system and it functions with certain rules. And sometimes they're silent rules. People don't speak about feelings, or people don't talk about what's really going on. So I love a challenge and working with the parents was more of a challenge for me. And I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before, but I don't know if you've heard this before. And I developed a tremendous amount of compassion and capacity for parents and loved ones, anxiety, and guilt, and kind of, if you will, misplaced energy, when if they put some of that energy into their own self care, it would actually be better for them, and probably better for their loved one. That's a difficult shift to help people make. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Speaker 1Absolutely. And well said. And, uh, I mean, yeah, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just grateful that, uh, you know, I'm grateful that I'm able to talk about, I think that this is so helpful for people because, um, I feel like there's a lot of answers out there for people in addiction and alcoholism. Um, if you choose to go and find them, right, there's a lot of solutions. It's, it's pretty apparent, you know, on the social media, like there's a lot of that, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1There's a huge gap between. Yeah. My kid won't, like, he's fucking up my family, right? Like, what do I do? You know, and you mentioned, uh, working at a, I recently got a job at a treatment center, and that's something that I recently realized that I wanted to do too. Um, I need to stay close to new people. I need to stay close to recovery. Another reason why I started this podcast, because I don't want to go back out, like I said, right? Um, it's not fun out there. And, um, so, I mean, like, working with, with, uh, Uh, so, okay. Now, so I, I was in Vancouver. I got a message. Uh, I get in contact with people to get them in the treatment center. That's my role, right? Is to facilitate that. Um, and I've been getting a lot of parents talking to a lot of parents. Yes. Right. And so this is very timely for me, right? Yeah. Um, I got a, a super long, you know, text conversation with this, with this mother and, uh, I was going to read it, but it's really long.
Speaker 2I know those. I'm familiar with those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much.
Speaker 1coming out. Like you don't even know where to start. Right. And you know, I don't, I'm not trying to solve anything when I'm doing this. I'm realizing that. Um, but she, she mentioned a lot of what I was going through with her, with her daughter and, uh, the psychosis. And I was getting goosebumps as I was reading it because she was telling me all these things that her daughter was experiencing and seeing and the paranoia and with, with crack and cocaine. Right. And, uh, I was just like, Oh my God, like you just feel for them, right. You feel for them, but you do your best to try and facilitate and get them in. Right. Um, that's definitely the hardest thing is to, to get that shift for, for loved ones to kind of work on themselves. Right. Yeah. How do you kind of, how do you approach that? I know that's a really, you know, big question, but, uh, today, how do you approach that? I guess. Well, um, if, if you tallied all the calls
Speaker 2that helplines and treatment centers got primarily they're from loved ones. Um, so, um, we're trying to help those that we love and, and, you know, facilitate getting them help. So that says a lot. It says a lot about how important the role of the family member is because often they do, people do go to treatment because of family love, support, leverage that, you know, I would say forced, but yeah. Yeah. And so I was forced. I'll say that. There you go. There you go. And it's, um, you know, leverage can also be leverage where it's a loving act to, to support someone, but there, there are ways to support. So I meet people where they're at. And usually, so the book came from my best practices, what's tried, tested and true for most people when they come for most parents and caregivers, when they come to me, they, um, they, they struggle with what is actually help and support and what is enabling. And they've had terms thrown at them, like they're codependent and they're enablers. And these are not, you know, we're all codependent. So to pathologize something that we all experience and we all enable different things. I enable my clients sometimes too, right? Like we are, um, we're, we're softies and we care about people. So. Um, how re really meeting them where they're at and giving them some tangible tools, some things that wherever they're at, they can work on. Um, enabling is usually a piece of it, understanding consequences, understanding natural consequences and letting those happen. And often parents will think that that's very punitive to let a natural consequence happen. For example, little Billy goes to school and he's forgotten. His homework and mom or dad or caregiver runs to school and brings his homework is Billy learning the lesson about his responsibility for his own homework, right? Like, so it's, um, it's, it's helping them understand what their role is and how they can create conditions for change and not try to control. They're so used to controlling. There's not, a lot of guides out there for teenagers with mental health and addictions. There's a lot of baby raising books. There's a lot of toddler raising books, but mental health and addiction for teens and young adults is an area that, Hey, it's, it's something people don't really want to talk about the struggles they're having with their teens. Parents tend to talk about all the great things their kids are doing. We all do. We talk about the great things that are happening. So it's, uh, stay with them in their journey, not lecture them, not reprimand them. They're already feeling so much, um, stress and pressure. There's pressure on parents today, like never before. And there's pressure on young people like never before. So understanding that they're, um, they're where they're at and trying to move them, whatever forward looks like for them in their situation.
Speaker 1Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I think that that's, I mean, that was well said the, the analogy about, um, you know, forgetting your homework, like, are you really giving your child, uh, life lessons and, and preparing right right and i understand too that that's a very you know small example in this context as well uh but as you were talking there just thinking about the the fentanyl thing right this fentanyl crisis um i want to ask you how that's impacted your work now with teens and parents worrying about you know their kids overdosing and dying and then like i don't i don't know that there's an answer to this but i was so i was kicked out of my house and that was the only way i went into treatment right if that happened that was 10 years ago you know if that happened today i don't know if my parents it was hard for them in the first place to do that right because they don't know what's going to happen to me right but i mean like when it comes to to you know kind of letting go how do you how do you navigate the the my son
Speaker 2might die tomorrow thing absolutely and um i want to clarify were you kicked out of your house or was your behavior such that it didn't allow you to live in the house that's a good way to frame it yeah so i need perspective shifts like that i i never um i never tell parents to get their kid out of the house um however if again if little anthony was living according to little anthony's rules i don't know how old you were two years ago but um and not according to the house rules was that fair was that um you know in line with the values of the family system or were you somewhat being being cushioned from the natural consequences of of your illness maybe they knew you know so it's it's all every situation is unique and where people are at is unique but there's a lot of steps between kicking someone out and asking of them kind of contributions to a system um that are not you know so they're there's parents will go there like i'm never going to kick my kid out and it might be years before the consequences help them determine that actually their their child is choosing to live under their roof and they can die under i've i've had people die at home as well yeah but in this one pill can kill them so it's a very scary experiment that we are living in today it is terrifying and uh in a there's there's no easy answer it's a toxic toxic supply out there and it's it's very scary so parents need to be informed the awareness needs to be raised and that's why i wanted my book to be out there so that people could have the awareness so that we're having these discussions so that we're telling them what to look for and and what to be really concerned about and what to you know letting go is a whole book in and of itself it's so difficult letting go is the hardest thing anybody will ever do and it's a process it's not an absolute it's a daily reminder of what you know what's at cost if i don't maintain my own peace and serenity unconditionally like yeah and also
Speaker 1too like how imposing more rules you know forcing doing controlling can actually push addicts further away absolutely
Speaker 2sorry so um looking at influence and how we can influence as opposed to control i know these are subtle shifts right like addiction and mental health crises are so counterintuitive for loved ones because when someone's ill you want to hang on you want to help you want to give them medication you want to do things to soften life for them those exact things make fuel addictive behaviors and they fuel mental health challenges too so it's understanding that kind of continuum with what's safe struggle and what is too much what you know what am i not going to allow my child to to face where am i gonna be that that's um what am i going to be that that's not going to be safe for them and uh and where do i have to step
Speaker 1back and let them struggle to find a solution yeah and uh you know a rock bottom too if you will right like um i you know i believe i had to hit some sort of rock bottom it was you know usually financially but there was also an emotional thing there where i was just like looking around at the world and you know i this last relapse i came to a point where i felt like i felt like such an outcast society again but to a to a very intense degree you know i i described this in one of my last episodes but my last uh bout this time around hopefully god willing today you know i was in a getting kicked out of a hotel and i just remember i remember very vividly sitting in the lobby of the hotel waiting to get kicked out because i couldn't afford it anymore and you know i'd run out of money like i said i had a whole shitload of drugs still on me but i had no desire to continue on anymore because i was sitting in the the lobby of this hotel and watching people just kind of walk by and live their life right day people used to call them day yeah yeah yeah i hated those guys when i came out of after hours clubs and i was just like man like i used to be like that i used to be just going like having normal problems and you know dealing with normal things and my life has just become this like how do i get to the next drug how do i get to the next drink how do i you know survive today and so i had to get to that and so again i got how did you frame it again instead of getting kicked out i wasn't living in accordance to the house rules yeah i like that it was it was about your behaviors
Speaker 2and uh and that uh they were actually treating you probably a little bit with kid gloves because nobody else would have been able to live in the house at 23 doing the things you were doing
Speaker 1perhaps no you're right possibly i like that yeah you're right and so that happened again this time with my wife you know she we were going to counseling and she did the same thing right where she politely asked me that you can't live under this roof while doing these behaviors right
Speaker 2so it's a choice yeah and words matter and i have a lot of scripts in my book because words choices matter and tone matters and at the same time we all make mistakes so if if a parent says something if if anybody says something that's uh not appropriate just say own it sorry i made a mistake i messed up
Speaker 1this is new to me i don't know what i'm doing right yeah right like it is like i've never dealt
Speaker 2with me there's no there is no manual other than mine now for for for doing this stuff but having some humility that parents don't have to have all the answers and they um it's so these are they're they're subtle shifts but when parents start to get these shifts i can see it like and they'll come back to a session and all of a sudden it's like the penny has dropped and i'm thinking what did i say what did i do it's like you have shifted and we can't explain how but it's like things are sinking in for them where they start to say no to their child or start to um stop financially supporting one aspect and it doesn't have to be this all or nothing right like just stop supporting one aspect of their lifestyle you don't have to cut them off it doesn't have to be this tough love but frankly love is firm your wife what she had to do was loving and and it was it was firm too it was like you have a choice if you want to stay here um you can't be using so yeah yeah yeah and you know um i remember too
Speaker 1her thing because she had some more knowledge about uh 12 step by this point her thing too was like you need to to go to meetings and you know you not only do you need to not use here right uh you need to also partake in the recovery community because that's what works for you and she was right right like that i found that that's the only thing that worked for me therapy and then this this sort of 12 step uh recovery i i always say this it's not for everybody it's not the same thing i get some flack sometimes right um but not everyone has a good experience with it and that's fine right there's many paths up there there are many paths more so
Speaker 2than there were 10 years ago that there were 26 years ago and there's medications that can assist with the right you know facilitation the right doctors addiction doctors and there are many many tools today that um will will sort of soften the path to recovery for people um
Speaker 1you mentioned you know the the scripts in your book and i love doing this where you know i haven't gotten a chance to start reading it yet but i'm excited to because uh as my wife pointed out to me she's like this can really help you you know and really help you with your recovery and i'm like this can really help you understand your parents and like their perspective so i truly believe that this is not just for a parent with a team like i think exactly everyone that deals with addiction can benefit from this and i've already realized that by what i do is i flip open the first page and that's the page i was meant to read this morning so um i'll read it now and then i want to hear you know your kind of feedback on it but so i i flipped open and it was consistent and purposeful validation helps to build relationships you were telling someone that they are important and the relationship with you matters so to your point i'm not just kicking someone out right examples and i love this examples of validating statements right so like things i can actually use in my life right one this must be difficult for you i believe in you tell me more about blank dot dot dot right what do you need from me us right now i'm proud of you or you can be proud of yourself i love you we know this time period circumstance is difficult for you how can we make it easier we care about you and what is happening to you it's no wonder you feel this way a personal favorite of yours yeah i feel this way i am we are sorry for what happened to you and i am we are so glad you are here um that might be hard for somebody to hear right now that the addict in their life is screwing up uh you know the family dynamic whatever you're doing this to me like you can feel very victimized right when when your son or daughter or loved one is using so i've completely taken it out of context so do you want to add some context to that like when do we when do we enter when do we start to kind of start doing these validating statements
Speaker 2anytime anytime as i we're all great at pointing out the things that aren't going well and um it's human nature um we tend to say 10 negatives before we say a positive so being mindful that validating is important for for the developing mind of a teenager the love language is words of affirmation they want their parents to support them yet so parents struggle with validating because they feel that it's contagious donning behavior so and give an example it's um you know maybe uh kid comes home with uh with a report card and uh and maybe they've passed some courses maybe they've failed some so rather than just saying you failed what's wrong with you to to balance it with you know i see there's some positives here and there's some room for improvement do you want to talk about it right um i'm never good at these on the spot examples but there's always a place for validating statements and if you can't validate then take a step back then that then deal with the feelings that are getting in the way of that like if you're feeling angry and resentful or harmed that you're maybe your your teenager has stayed out all night again yeah and you're feeling angry and resentful or harmed that you're maybe your your teenager has stayed out all night again yeah and you're frustrated and you're in all that so that's a time to go to a meeting or call susan or call anthony and and have someone to chat with and to de-escalate and and to tend to your own feelings so that you can come back to a place of compassion and where you can validate and then the bit about condoning like you can say um i understand why you might be smoking weed because all your friends are smoking weed because all your friends are smoking weed because all your friends are i really get that this is a time i really get that this is a time i really get that this is a time where where a lot of young people your age where where a lot of young people your age where where a lot of young people your age are doing such things are doing such things are doing such things and it's not allowed in this house so how and it's not allowed in this house so how and it's not allowed in this house so how are we going to deal with that are we going to deal with that are we going to deal with that so you can validate you can support you so you can validate you can support you so you can validate you can support you can understand can understand can understand without condoning a behavior so they're without condoning a behavior so they're without condoning a behavior so they're really operating in two different really operating in two different really operating in two different realms but parents can can confuse that realms but parents can can confuse that realms but parents can can confuse that and think that if i say and think that if i say and think that if i say oh yeah all your friends are smoking oh yeah all your friends are smoking oh yeah all your friends are smoking weed that somehow that's giving you weed that somehow that's giving you weed that somehow that's giving you permission to go permission to go permission to go and smoke weed or that i'm i'm um and smoke weed or that i'm i'm um and smoke weed or that i'm i'm um you know desensitizing you to it or you know desensitizing you to it or you know desensitizing you to it or they'll say just don't hang around with they'll say just don't hang around with those friends because i know those friends because i know those friends because i know they want to they want to think that they want to they want to think that they want to they want to think that it's always the peers the other peers it's always the peers the other peers it's always the peers the other peers we all do we want to think that there's we all do we want to think that there's we all do we want to think that there's some other influence that it's not um some other influence that it's not um some other influence that it's not um so does that make sense like yeah so does that make sense like yeah
Speaker 1so does that make sense like yeah because i didn't i didn't raise you this because i didn't i didn't raise you this because i didn't i didn't raise you this way right or yeah this isn't the way right or yeah this isn't the way right or yeah this isn't the person the man woman girl whatever i i person the man woman girl whatever i i person the man woman girl whatever i i raised you to be raised you to be raised you to be um so it must be everybody else right um so it must be everybody else right um so it must be everybody else right um that actually definitely that leads me um that actually definitely that leads me um that actually definitely that leads me into my next question because my into my next question because my into my next question because my parents parents parents i think went through a bit of this too i think went through a bit of this too i think went through a bit of this too is that denial right the denial of is that denial right the denial of is that denial right the denial of my my son can't be smoking like we We didn't, there's no way he's, you know, snorting coke. We didn't raise him. No one in the family, like what, how did this even happen? None of his friends even do it. How did he get into this? Do you deal with a lot of denial and how do you approach that with parents?
Speaker 2Yes, lots of denial and lots of parents come in feeling a lot of guilt and responsibility for behaviors that really don't have anything to do with them per se. So we know that addiction is a bio-psycho-social condition, mental health issues. Similarly, drugs and alcohol can exacerbate mental health symptoms. Parents also, and I talk about this in my book, will come from the perspective that it's mental health and it's not an addiction. Somehow in their frame of mind, addiction is, you know, we know it has a lot more stigma and is not as accepted as perhaps having a mental health issue. So, yeah, parents come in with a lot of denial. And, yeah, I'll just validate that they're there. You're here. I got a call from a referent this week, someone who had seen me perhaps a couple of years ago. They came to see you a couple of years ago. Okay, so they're back. Great. Good for them. What's changed in a couple of years? Like, would it have been great if they had stayed? They didn't. That's okay. They're here now. Just like I didn't get sober the very first time I went to detox. Sadly, there were multiple visits. So there's a lot of denial. There's a lot of rationalizing that he's using or she's using because of their anxiety. And while that may be the case, now we have two problems because we've got substance-induced anxiety plus whatever anxiety was there before. So it doesn't really matter how we got to where we're at today. From today on, we're going to start on a path of a new solution. A new plan. But I'll listen to all of that. I'll listen to how they feel it's not their child, that it's the peer group. I'll help them understand how to kind of balance that out a bit without, you know, calling them out. I'm very gentle.
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Speaker 1I'm sure as you start to get to know clients like my therapist, you start to call them out. Mine doesn't leave me. I believe, you know, Polly's the best. She doesn't leave anything on the table. No stone unturned. She'll call me on all my shit.
Speaker 2Some of them might even be tossed. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, tossed. Exactly.
Speaker 2Usually people come to their own understanding and I kind of just help get them there. And it's not like I have some, you know, amazing ability to understand. I just, like, I've heard it before. Their exit strategy might be slightly different, but I've generally heard their concern. And that's why it was helpful to write what I wrote because I knew where parents get stuck. And I know where I get stuck as a loved one. I'm still in it too.
Speaker 1Like you said, it's a daily reprieve, right? It's a daily maintenance. Where do you see people getting stuck the most, would you say? Like, what's the common place that people just can't get over?
Speaker 2Sometimes it's enabling versus supporting. Yeah. And commonly it is letting go. I mean, I tend to not even say letting go until we're well into our relationship because it sounds kind of wooey wooey. Yeah. But I will teach them how to let go. We come at it through the back door. I'll teach them how to stand up for themselves, which is also letting go. How to put their own peace of mind first. How to do their own work. So that they're modeling that to their children, which is super beneficial. If you're listening to this and you're going to therapy or you're going to Al-Anon or you're going to Families for Addiction Recovery or you're going to HOPE, which is another parent support, they're amazing. And I'm happy to provide resources.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm going to link those. I've never heard of them. I'm going to link those in the show notes.
Speaker 2And Sunnybrook Family Navigation Project is a wonderful one. resource for for families and most of them have generated out of parents and loved ones who have created services because they realized there was such a gap in the system but um if if you're you know i lost my train of thought there but if you're going to those like that you need to be doing that for yourself and and working and and that's a tough that's the toughest shift i think for and again it doesn't have to be this your your adolescence brain isn't developed so they're thinking very much in black and white i would encourage parents and caregivers to think in the gray area if you're not kicking them out maybe you're setting a curfew see where it goes try it for a month or two try it for a week or two maybe it crashes and burns but you're not kicking them out you're just inching towards a little bit of a gap in the system and that's a tough shift more of a guideline that you can live with because you've got to put your head on the pillow at the end of the day right you're working parents are working hard yeah and if i've learned
Speaker 1anything that's not happening at all right when like you're not getting any sleep sometimes
Speaker 2sometimes so often parents are not getting a good night's sleep because they're so worried and the pressure or they're maybe their their child is on the streets or couch surfing or whatever and they're still not you know they're still not getting a good night's sleep so so to put some energy into getting support for themselves so that they can have a broader capacity to deal with a crisis that's still that they're still in um does that happen a lot do you do you find that
Speaker 1clients come in they're like i don't even know where my kid is right like where do you go from that point because i had a parent reach out to me it was like i haven't seen my kid in four years like he's like in his 20s and what do i do like what do i do right is there like systems set up to do to deal with that i don't know if you know the answer to that or or maybe just you can talk about your experience with
Speaker 2well a lot a lot of times some parents will want to cut off a cell phone for example if they are if that's something they're providing and and i always think it's it's helpful for people to have a way to connect um and and if if you're in that early stage of crisis to tell your loved one that look i'm you're always going to have i'm always going to respond to your um communications it might not be in the middle of the night because i put my sleep first or i would always be there for you it you know at some at a level that honors my own peace of mind and serenity so to have some of these it'll always be here for you and it might be i might have to take a step back because uh because i love you too much to to keep on messing up or whatever the case is but to maintain connection at a level that you can that you can live with it doesn't mean you're enabling it doesn't mean you're um fueling behaviors that are that are not healthy it means you're staying connected at any cost so for someone who's not connected with their child that is i mean that's terribly scary they usually do show up or surface if it's a temporary kind of thing if it's a matter of years i mean there's there's a lot of grief and loss work there to be done there's a lot of like how are you doing with that how are you okay if you haven't you don't know where your child is i mean this yeah
Speaker 1to this woman had uh she was in a place of acceptance i think because she was very calm like i could just kind of feel it in in her tone um and there was some work there was she was telling me she was seeing a therapist so there was definitely some work done there and i think that she probably had come a long way because i don't imagine that to be easy at all right um someone comes into uh you know to see you or um is dealing with reaches out to you is dealing with a loved one of an addict and doesn't know what to do where do where do they start where do where do you start people on this journey like what's step one really
Speaker 2um what what is their goal what do they want are they um invested in getting their loved one into treatment what are i'll ask them what the behaviors and symptoms and and my book outlines that that uh that they're dealing with on a daily basis are maybe it's phone calls in the middle of the night maybe their loved one's living with them and they're dealing with um verbal abuse or um other behavior that they're they're struggling with and they're struggling with so what to look for first of all to see yeah yeah see where they're at with um with kind of day-to-day what the parent or loved one is dealing with and kind of take stock of that and then where where are the levers of influence so if um they're struggling and their young person has the keys to the car and the parents are insuring the car well there's a lever of influence are the parents comfortable being comfortable with the car and the parents are ensuring the car well there's a completely uh libel in a case where a young person might be substance involved or have mental health issues that would result in an accident am i okay yeah yeah no you're good sorry um so so where are the levers of influence and and oh well and most will say i couldn't possibly do that they're using the car to go to their job okay all right so um you know does it concern you that they're that they're liable for that and and and where where are you prepared to make a change and start with kind of the lowest hanging fruit we're not going to kick out right away but maybe you've got enough money to be drinking and using maybe they could contribute to the household either through some monetary or maybe they could contribute to their cell phone bill maybe there's some more skin in the game they can have to uh to to show some responsibility does that make sense like to kind of have those where where are the levers of influence because family have much more leverage than they are in touch with by the time they come and reach out for help they're feeling very powerless they're feeling like they have zero control and in a sense they do they don't have control over their young person but they do have control over some things so it's like lining them up with what they have control they don't have control over the disease of addiction or mental health they definitely don't have control over that what do they have control over okay are they funding it are they you know are they giving money are they supporting driver driver's insurance or providing a place to use the drugs yeah yeah so where where are they prepared to maybe um and just pointing those things out will give them a sense even if they're not ready and again i'm not telling them this is what they need to do but i'm not telling them this is what they need to do and we're establishing where they feel like they have a little bit of influence and the loving relationship is a big one it's bigger than parents give uh acknowledge uh the children want a connection with the parents they don't really want to be pissing them off and harming them and causing in fact that can fuel a lot of the guilt shame and remorse in a loved one's in in the young person's so uh yeah having having that um having a kind of taking stock and having those tough inventories of where where am i supporting recovery and where am i and they can always people can always start doing something for themselves going to a you know the low barrier support group where it doesn't cost a lot of money but they can go online even or listen to a podcast there's great podcasts out there yours is one of them thanks uh to uh to get some support and on their own terms
Speaker 1yeah yeah that's that's great thank you um i i think i'm gonna have to have you back on because uh we're gonna have to wrap it up here but i could go on forever about this um let's close with this because i always close my podcast with this but uh if you could say something to the struggling mom dad loved one of an addict right now what would you say i would say there is a
Speaker 2solution to this i would say there is a solution to this and i would say there is a solution to and you're looking at two solutions here and uh you know i've worked with young people that have been in my life for a long long long long time and maybe they've come in and out of abstinence but there's so much more to recovery than abstinence and i love that i've been able to introduce them to a solution that they've come back to for and may take with them for the rest of their life in a way that suits them so recovery is possible and there's always hope
Speaker 1always yeah thanks so much susan um your book's on amazon where else is it available it's available
Speaker 2everywhere books are sold and if it's not ask for it please and you can ask for it at your library um it's got an ebook available so yeah and it's even on sale because it's amazon prime days
Speaker 1love it oh yeah good call yeah i love it - It is. Yeah.
Speaker 2Thanks so much for coming down. - But if you wanna buy Canadian, it's at Indigo. - Oh, there you go.
Speaker 1city if you ask for it and yeah i love it i'm i'm looking forward to reading this and uh i think we need to continue this conversation on uh not just on this podcast but like out in the world right
Speaker 2because a lot of absolutely this message it's about raising awareness and having the tough conversations and um and learning new ways to new tools new ways to cope yeah and there is a solution thanks very much for having me i really enjoyed this i appreciate it thanks for listening please
Speaker 6help us grow the channel and like share and subscribe for more content the discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only this content is not a substitute for professional medical advice addiction treatment or therapy if you or someone you know is struggling with addiction please consult a licensed physician addiction specialist or mental health professional you are no longer alone
Speaker 5this episode is brought to you by txu energy for the first time ever texans have an energy plan that combines free nights all year with daytime summer savings it's called free nights and cool summer you get free nights every night all year long plus a 25 bonus toward your daytime use all summer it's a first of its kind plan created for how texans actually use energy discover how much more you could save with free nights and cool summer txu energy energy for everything visit txu.com for more information rep number one zero zero zero four hank joined bj's wholesale
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