Understanding Status: The Science Behind Respect and Influence (And What It Means for Parenting) w/ Professor Alison Fragale

The following podcast is a deer media production. [MUSIC] I learned about status in a completely different way than I understood status to be. And I'm really excited for you to listen to this episode because status is so related to the parent child relationship to navigating the social world of adolescents to understanding our social worlds. It impacts relationships, professions. It's really a big deal. And so teaching our kids had to build status in relationships without chasing external validation and helping our girls in particular understand why status is harder for daughters and for sons. And just so many interesting conversations in this one discussion with Alison Fregale. She's a business school professor and research psychologist. And I loved, loved this conversation about status. She wrote a book called Likeable Badass. And she has studied power status and negotiation for over 20 years. I'm Dr. Lisa Pressman and this is Raising Good Humans Podcast. But what I wanted to tell you, which is so bizarre or such a small world, is that I was just working in Northern California. So I stayed with my college roommate. And I was sitting there talking with her and with her husband. And I'm like, whatever I was saying, they said, you have to, you should interview our friends out there for care. And I'm like, what's up here? I'm funding. Hi. Wait, did you, did you live in nine prospects in your year? Yes. I lived there a year after you. The one that was the garage with the garage. Yeah, but I was like, I thought it was a school. It did you still have a pink shower? Yeah, totally. That was only one year after you. It totally did. Nothing had changed. Oh, really? I can't believe we're figuring this out. Right? I am. Oh, my God. This is like totally makes my day. So come on. Okay. So let's start and do it. So your target audience maybe wasn't intentionally mothers. So tell me the yes part. So a couple things. One is I'm a mom of three kids. And it's a huge part of my identity. And I do think that the women that I often speak to, whether I'm teaching at business school or writing, or women who work for pay, but many of them are also parents who are also trying to navigate everything. And the concept that we'll probably dig into of status is a human concept. It's not a workplace concept. It has a lot of applications that work, but it also has a lot of applications and parenting. So I don't consider myself a parenting expert, but I'm a psychologist who is a parent who can apply psychology to any kind of relationship you want. And it's fun to think about applying that as a parent because I think about it a lot as a parent. Like my job informs the things I know and form how I think about parenting my kids. So I think that's the yes piece. It's not what I'm typically paid to do. That's fair. But in terms of having a perspective on it that's informed through psychology and being 17 years as a parent, it's very relevant. You're taking a risk of applying it. Here are the two directions that I wanted to go in and that made me think I was so excited to interview you before I knew that we. Yes, right. This length where we had passed each other. Like a circle K or whatever that they was a quick stop a million times. So wild. So the two things are actually three things. And so I want your take first was an observation that my younger daughter made that I said something to her along the lines of, you know, I noticed that you're self deprecating a lot. And I was curious what that's about. And she said, well, I noticed you do it all the time. And I thought that was like how you connect with people. So I thought it was like something I should be doing. And I was thinking, oh my god, then I started paying attention. I'm like, I do it all the time. And what I said to her was, for better or for worse, I think I do it because I learned, but as I'm sure you did too, I just don't want anybody to feel on the defensive and uncomfortable around me. Anyway, and probably I learned a lot of things about just being a woman in the world and being a girl. And anyway, I'm not super excited that it turns out I'm self deprecating enough that my daughter thought it was like a strategy. And or it just became part of her vibe. So that's one thing I just wanted to talk about sort of how we presented in front of our girls. The other thing is I think status and I want to hear everything that you have to say about it is so relevant as you watch in school. All these friends and the groups and the establishment of these cohorts. I just, I think status is a funky word. I think that we have a lot of associations with. So I really want to hear your take and I think it's really interesting how we can have those conversations. I has young people are navigating pure structures. And then the third thing is just how you talk about navigating the way we communicate and the way we're likable, while also being bad asses. I'm stealing from your book title. So those are the three things that were on my mind and as the mother of now I have two daughters and one stepdaughter. It's more on my mind than ever. But also as a woman navigating the world. So it's been on my mind. So why don't we start with this word status and what what is status. Yeah. So status is if you look in the dictionary, definitions of status. There's a couple one of them is going to be how much you're respected and held in high regard by other people. And that's the definition that psychologists like me will you. So your status is a judgment by another person of how much they respect and regard you. So it is it sits in someone else's mind. But it has a great impact on our quality of life. And status is one of a few fundamental needs that human beings have affiliation is one. So if life without friends is a very unsatisfying life. But a life without respect is an equally unsatisfying life. And it's something that all human beings seek. But that's at the core of what it is. And it's a term we use in a lot of different ways when we talk to each other about status. But on some level that's always what we're signaling. Even if we talk about something as being a status symbol. It's going to be something that one could hold or touch that is associated with. Oh, if you have that thing, well, what must be true about you? Right. You must be a really successful, capable person. And therefore are under are worthy of my admiration, my respect. So it all comes back to that judgment that another person makes about you. Do they respect you? Okay. So when people think of status in other ways that has it more of a negative connotation. What do you think is happening? Yeah, I think I talked about this. I talked about being someone being a status seeker, right? That would be you're seeking what attention? You're seeking recognition. You're seeking material goods. And there can be a lot of negative associations with all of those those things. I don't I don't think at its core, I'm trying to reclaim the word to say to people. This concept is a really good thing. It's something we shouldn't be embarrassed about wanting because it's so it's the same way you wouldn't be embarrassed by saying. I would like to have friends. But because life without friends is lonely. Life without being valued is not a good life. So I think that that you know. I don't exactly know where to say it comes from except to say that at its core it is not a bad concept. It is something we're all seeking. And we all want now you can go about it in bad ways. And you can go about it in un strategic ways that are not going to get you good results. And that's a lot of times what kids are doing is they're seeking to be respected by doing a lot of problematic things. And so maybe that's where you know you can get that negative association. But the desire to be valued is a very human fundamental desire that is a good thing if we can channel it and harness it. And do you see a difference in how women and girls view staggots? Yes, but I'll frame it bigger, which is there are cultural definitions in how people think about sadness. So there's some things that are universal. So the when we label status, you fundamental human need, what we are saying is there is evidence that across cultures, generations, etc. All human beings value being respected in their relationships. That's a universal. There's another universal which is where status comes from. So when a person decides if they respect another person, that decision is not random in their head. It's based on them trying to figure out two things. So the first thing that everyone wants to figure out is do you care? Do you care about people other than yourself? So I always say like if you lived in cave person times and an unknown cave person walks into your cave. The most important thing your brain is going to want to figure out is are they there to hurt me? Or are they there to help me? And so our intentions are paramount. And as we figure out that your intentions are good, the second thing we want to figure out is can I rely on you? Are you capable? Are you good at what you do? And so if you're a cave person, I know, oh, hey, you're there. You want to help me hunt? Well, the next thing I need to figure out is are you any good at hunting? Because I'm not taking you with me. you if you cannot. So those two dimensions in we'll call them like are you caring and are you capable? Those two dimensions are the the science of how a status judgment gets made. So when you're perceiving another person and they're perceiving you, they're trying to figure out those same two things. Now that's true for everybody, right? So that's true for kids as well. But the culturally determined part is, well, what are the signals that you're really capable? And what are the signals that you really, you know, care about people other than yourself? Those signals can change greatly depending on what country you're in, what generation you're talking to, what industry you're in. And so that's where you look at it and you'd say, hmm, status in high school or status in middle school looks very different than status in the workplace or status in my adult relationships. It doesn't, it doesn't. Everyone's trying to figure out the same thing, which is, are you going to make my life better in some way or worse? And so I'm going to value that. And are you good at something that I see as helpful and useful to me? And so even if you go within clicks within school, you can see what status, you know, where status comes from. I remember, I went to a public school of K through eight as a kid and then I switched at ninth grade into an independent private high school. And I, having compared those two experiences, one of the things I was able to reflect that afterward, although I didn't have the language, was it when I switched from public school to the private high school? There was all of a sudden a status and respect that came from being a really good student. Whereas in the, in the public high school, that could actually be problematic, right? You could be seen as, you know, nerdy and they didn't value that skill that you had. And therefore, there wasn't really respect that came from that. And when I switched, I said, Oh, even if you're not popular in the standard, you know, mean girls, plastics version, there's always a respect that was given to people who are really successful in the classroom, because everyone was there was coming from an environment where they were told at home that was a really important thing. And you could see the difference in how you were treated as I switched those schools. And so that's an example of, it's still a, still a kid, but I go from one pond to a different pond. And in that second pond, even among the kids, their valuing academic achievement as a capability that I wasn't seeing in the circles that I was running with when I was good in this, you know, nice, but very nice public school that I had gone to before. So change the environment, change the signals, but the underlying science is always still the same. People are trying to figure out, right? Are you going to make my life better? And are you good at something I care about? So when you're talking about this with your kids, for example, like how much are you naming this so that there's a consciousness around it? So that if, if like a teenager is struggling, they can have a consciousness around it. And how much is it sort of just like in the water that you're swimming in? I think it's both. And as they get older, I name it more. And I don't know if you could tell me if this is true, like we're both psychologists of different flavors. I just personally can't help it. That's just how I talk and how I see the world. So I came from a long 20 plus years of teaching negotiation and influence. And so I, for example, I talk with my kids about negotiation all the time. And I use these like terms and words and they start to look at me first like I'm crazy when they're younger than after a while, kind of absorb it. And then they start to repeat it. The same thing with, with status, I use slightly different languages. They get older minor now 10 through 17. So they can understand a lot of things. But I give them the, the concepts of thinking about, you know, try to help them interact with their teachers, you know, trying to they care about being, they care about being respected by certain audiences, right? Whether it's a teacher, whether it's a particular friend. And then some, that'll affect how they show up. So as an example, my great reports just came out and my middle son said he didn't understand why he got the grade he did in a particular class. And I said, well, you should go ask the teacher. I said, it's what you're in. He said, but that's disrespectful. That I don't. And I said, disrespectful would be you great, you graded me wrong. But to say, I actually want to understand why I got what I got so that I can look forward improving in those areas going forward, you can do that in a way where you can convey that caring and that warmth, which is I'm not challenging. I want to show you I care about this relationship, I care about being better. But to have them say you have to figure out a way to do both, you have to figure out how to assert yourself and say, hey, I might know what I'm doing here and do it in a way that can, can base consideration for the relationship. So I have, I tend to have the conversations around moments that they're working through and then say, well, here's how I would think about it. Or if I were on the other side of this, I do a lot of that because the psychologist, right, we spend a lot of time putting ourselves in other people's heads. So I am often reflecting back to them, well, as your audience, here's what I would be experiencing. And then you can then think about what do you want to give your audience? And now for a quick break, this episode is brought to you in part by better help. 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They're trained credentialed experts who help make sense of all that noise. Their role is not to push trends or quick fixes. It's to bring evidence, backed guidance, and translate nutrition science into realistic meal ideas, grocery tips, and changes you can actually maintain. Because nutrition is not a one-size-fits-all. Stop guessing about nutrition. Connect with a nutrition and dietetics professional for expert personalized guidance that works for you. And for tips and information, visit eatright.org/everytable to learn more and find a nutrition and dietetics professional. By the way, that alone is a really helpful tool. Because I actually think not everybody thinks that way. And so to have that in the mind of your kids as they're getting older and older to think like how is my audience imagining this or how is this other person experiencing it is fantastic. And we, you know, maybe I would think of theory of mind and that transition in early childhood when you can start to realize other people have the capacity to have a different mental state than you do. But I don't know that that gets carried forward. Maybe we say things more in relationships where empathy is involved and you're thinking about like your friend and their feelings. But I don't know that people think about it strategically in the same way or that they name it strategically. Yeah, I don't know either. And I thank you for saying that. That makes me feel good. I'm terrible at imaginary play. So I like to think I had some like compensating strengths as a parent. And maybe my it's like, like, ability to like think about the world through another person's perspective. Because that's my day job is helpful as a parent. I don't know that my kids always think, Mom, that was so helpful. I don't always get that reaction. But I'd like to think deep down it's it's sinking in of thinking about how another person would receive it. And and and I mean on that note, it's also something I talk about a lot is there's a distinction between being strategic about your audience and chasing their approval. And because you can't have the teenage reaction of like, well, if you don't like me, you know, who cares. I said, you can't do that with everyone in the world because try getting into college without a recommendation. Like try getting a job without impressing the interviewer. Try getting married without getting someone to go on a second date with you. Like you do have to care about what some people think. Because otherwise you can be by yourself your whole life, right? And but that doesn't mean that what they think that has to be defining what you think. And trying to help them parse out that distinction, which is you can be strategic. But then also there are moments where when they come home and they're hurt, and you're like, that's not someone you need to care about. And so helping them think about the distinction between throwing everybody away and being able to decide, I need to invest here, I don't need to invest here. This person's giving me feedback that actually I might want to internalize and use to move forward. And this person is just giving me noise that I need to ignore. That's a lot of the challenge, right? Is helping them decide that distinction between caring some, but not too much? - Actually, let's expand that because that is also, I think a lot of what happens in your day job translates so beautifully to the really hard experience of navigating humans in adolescent. I don't know, maybe with younger kids, it would probably have to be so translated and they're just watching you and they're learning, but thinking about even helping somebody decide what feedback to internalize and what feedback to say, like, that's just noise. How do you go about that with adults? Because we can think about that as parents, as partners and work at home. But then also I think it's helpful to figure out how to talk through that with young people who are constantly getting feedback and if they internalized all of it, that could be so sad and possibly harmful, but if they internalize none of it, to your point, that's not great. - Right, so the way I think about it with everybody is it all depends on your goals and the more clear you are about what your goals are, then the more you can figure out whether this person is someone you need to work through and get them to respect you or you can ignore. They're 8 billion people in the world, not everyone's gonna know us and not everyone's gonna respect us, but some are much more important than others. But that's a personal decision. So with everybody I think about, what do you want from your life? Three years, five years, 10 years, 20 years down the road. And then what resources are gonna get you there? Money is a resource, health is a resource, but status is a resource too. Being respected in relationships feels good, but it's also a resource that helps you get other things that you want. So who's status, who you need status with depends on what your particular goals are. So that's often, now with my kids, I don't always have them like articulate their goals 'cause sometimes they don't think they know, but I can assume what some of their goals are. So for example, if you want to run for a class position that is voted on by classmates, well, it doesn't mean you have to like, curry favor with everybody, but everyone's gonna get a voice and a say. And so then you might say that's an important goal of yours then you'd have to think about like, what are the opinions of those people? And is everyone's opinion important? Or are there certain people who are central in the network who would help you like if they vouch for you and they really believe in what you're doing would be helpful for getting other people? It's like thinking about that kind of strategy. But I assume all my kids want to pursue education beyond high school. They need people to write letters for them. They need people to do all these things for them to like tutor them or help them if they need extra assistance and class, whatever it is. Well, you know, if you, that's your goal, these people, you can't ignore these all your teachers, right, that's not gonna help you achieve your goal. So you have to figure out a way to work through them. Now, sometimes you can go around one person. Yeah, you might have a teacher, you have a conflict. But if you start having to go around everyone, it's not gonna work. So that is how I would have people make the decision, which is what do you want? Now, if it's just a purely personal conflict between kids, well, if it's a friend that you think, like, I really like this person and I really wanna have a relationship with them. And I consider this person a friend for a long time, but now things have gone sideways and we are, maybe that's something we have to say, okay, I do care about that particular person. I wanna rebuild it in the same way that an adult might care about their best friend, their spouse, whatever. You know, you could, it's okay to care about a particular relationship. But you can't care about them all equally. And you have to say some of them, you know, when my daughter might say that, you know, certain people don't like her, I would say in 10 years of knowing you, I was like, how long has that person been in your school? And they'd say, oh, since preschool, I said, I've never heard that person's name. So maybe that's a real, a secret person that's been super important to you, but I'm just gonna reflect back to you what I've heard. In 10 years, I've never heard you mention that person. I didn't know that was a person at your school. So it doesn't sound like to me, this is a person that you have invested a tremendous amount of time. And if that's the case, then it also seems like that person's not investing a tremendous amount of time with you. So what I'm hearing is this person sits on the margin and that's not something that you wanna invest in. But hey, if I'm wrong and you really do, and this is a person that you really want to be central in your life, let's talk about it. And often at that point, she's like, no, I don't really like that me there. I'm like, well, there you go. So I help them kind of think through a relationship by a relationship like, is the do you care? And if you care, then you could probably turn it around. And if you don't care, then you could let it go. But sometimes with the reactants that kids certainly have an adult's have is sometimes they're willing to let things go a little too quickly. And I would say, no, you actually should bring that relationship back because that's one that has a real potential to help you achieve your long-term goals. And if you can get in a good place with that, chances are things will be easier for you. Okay, so now I wanna think about just this whole concept of likable badass because it's also just a great title. Just saying. - Thank you. - I appreciate that. But as a gen exer, - Yes. - I am still noticing that younger moms, for example, have, seem like they have a higher comfort level for being sort of in that category, being less self-deprecating and more sort of like, confidently out there. That might just be my imagined experience, but I think it's harder. I know that the gen ex version of me felt like I was raised to sort of undercut achievements, kind of be a little bit self-deprecating, that that disarms people. I don't do it intentionally. I just noticed, because I pointed out to my daughter that I thought she was kind of being self-deprecating quite a bit. And I just said, I was curious about it. She said, well, I noticed you do that all the time. So when I'm being self-deprecating, I really am just being like, this is my era. Like this is just kind of the way that my personality lands. But it feels protected because I'm aware of my level of confidence and competence. But I'm so taken aback when I see it in young women and my young woman in particular. So I'm curious about that. Like what's that about? And what do we do? How do we toggle between being likeable and being about us is really the question. So I appreciated the compliment on the title, the book title, because this was my title. And I always joke that 80% of writing a successful book is having a good catchy title. So every time someone tells me it's catchy, I'm like, yes, I got what I was going for. But it's the reference. It's just the catchy reference to the thing I just said, which is the two dimensions you have to navigate are showing people you care. So I call that likable on the cover. And then showing people you know what you're doing. Am I called that bad ass? But those two dimensions are what's important. Self-deprecating, and I'll talk about this. I am a lifelong self-deprecator. It's one of my worst storytelling habits. But why is it bad? It is a very warm behavior. It actually can be quite humorous. So if you think of comedians, many comedians, their entire act is self-deprecation. And humor is both a sign of intelligence, but it's also very warm. So it's a good way to hit the likable on the bad ass. The challenge is that we are considered experts on ourselves. And what we see in self-deprecation is, it does cut that dimension of capability. If you tell somebody you're not good at something, they will believe you. Why would they not? Why would they-- they wouldn't have any reason to doubt you. In the same way that that's why when you self-promote and say you're good at something, people also believe you. So the downside of self-deprecation is it hits the likable, but it potentially threatens the bad ass. Now, where does that become risky? It becomes risky with people who don't know you. So if you're capable of these are absolutely not in dispute with a particular audience, you can get away with self-deprecation. I was just watching this like thing that hit my Instagram of Barack Obama and then breaking down how Barack Obama introduced himself. And the Barack Obama interview, after he was already the president said, you might know me, I'm Michelle Obama's husband. Right. And I was like, that was such a great introduction. I'm like, that was a great introduction for an ex-president. That's not a great introduction for anyone else. Like, don't do that. Like, you wouldn't-- I wouldn't like go and introduce myself as like my husband's wife. Right. So it can work when your competence is so obviously understood by the entire audience. Then it's just you're hitting on the warmth dimension. And it's it sells. But I'll give you an example from writing this book. OK. So I sold the proposal to this book, Penguin Random House. I have my editor who buys the book. So she believes in the project, but she does not know me from anybody. I then go into a coffee shop for two years, produce a book, and then send it to her, OK, as the first draft. Her biggest comment that came back after the first draft was, oh my god, look how much you're cutting yourself down. Look how much self-deprecation is in this book. And she said to me, Allison, people want to buy books from experts, which you are. But you are not talking about yourself like an expert. These are not your high school besties, OK? These people do not know you. And I kid you not. She even next, my daddy. medication page, which was the one page I thought could not be edited because it wasn't like the one parent thing I can say whatever I want. So you can't say that. It's too self-deprecating. It's the first thing people read when they open the book. And so just like your daughter, it was a huge eye opener. I had some awareness that I did it, but could I have ever articulated I didn't that much without somebody else reflecting it back to me. And then once she did it, and I could see it on the page, I'm like, "You're right." And now for a quick break. Okay. A lot of parents say that they didn't plan on using formula, and yet 74% end up using formula at some point in their feeding journey. So whether you're exclusively breastfeeding, exclusively formula feeding, or some combination thereof, you already are probably exhausted and having to decode ingredients and not know what's going into what brands is a lot. So that's where little spoon stands out. They're very explicit about what's in their organic grass fed whole milk and fin formula, how it's sourced, and how each batch is safety tested. And to back it up, they published their testing results right on their site. And once you're through this whole formula conversation, you don't have to get to know another brand. Little spoon is built to be a feeding partner with expert crafted recipes for babies, toddlers, and big kids. And there's pediatrician backed guidance and a community for parents. It's nutrition for every stage of baby and kid development, already thought through, delivered to your door, and it gives you some peace of mind. If formula is a part of your feeding journey, which is totally personal and yours to do whatever you want, little spoon makes that choice feel less heavy. There are organic grass fed whole milk and fin formula is a complete nutrition recipe modeled after breast milk. Everything's openly shared on little spoon.com from sourcing to ingredients to safety testing. Try little spoon formula with their two-can trial pack. Buy one, get one free. That's $30 for two cans. That's L-I-T-T-L-E-S-P-O-O-N dot com slash tri formula. Now here's the deal. Why are we doing this? One, this is a case for me. I was very successful in school. I went to Dharma, I know we share that. Got my PhD at Stanford. I was always in these situations where people would kind of make me feel uncomfortable at the level of success I was having when I was a younger person. And I didn't want, didn't really enjoy it. And I certainly didn't want it to make anybody else feel bad. And so I very quickly started to learn. And as was kind of echoed by my parents, like, just go make friends. They weren't worried about me being successful. They were worried about me being nice enough. And so I just started a very early age not trying to shrink myself, but just not trying to make other people uncomfortable. I just was like, I always want to be a nice person. So, you know, I would conceal things that would be like accolades so that people wouldn't know about them. I think many people do this. Like, I went to school in New Hampshire kind of trick. Like, I'm not going to talk about where I went to school. I'm not going to do these things. So it comes from both a, like sometimes a self-confidence of like, I've done a lot of successful things. And I'm not trying to put those things in other people's spaces. I'm just trying to have like a conversation with you at the dog park about whatever. And you learn to hide those things. The challenges that in certain audiences, your qualifications are not evident. And so, but what we're really trying to do in those situations is we're not trying to make ourselves look worse. We're just trying to make another person feel good and comfortable and be nice. So what I help people think about, and I've had to do this myself, is sometimes just a very subtle shift can achieve the exact same thing without you having to put yourself down. So, complimenting another person very sincerely and genuinely on something that they do that they're excellent at is a very nice way to put love into somebody else that doesn't require you to be the worst reference. So, you know, I'll see this all the time. People might be introducing a guest that comes to their meeting or something else and they'll say, we are so lucky to have a real expert here today. You don't have to listen to me anymore. And I would say that defecation isn't really necessary. It's not getting you anything. Whereas you could just say, I am beyond grateful that this person who has so much wisdom share has taken time out of their day to be with us. It's just as flattering and you don't have to put yourself down in the process. So, that's where it comes from. And it's something for people to be aware of. And here's the deal. Not every bad self-deprecation. I'm going to call it a bad habit. Not every bad habit can be eliminated. And not every bad habit has to be eliminated. But you cannot have nothing but bad habits because then you won't be respected in value. So, if for people, their self-deprecation is really integral to how they present themselves and it's too hard to change, I would say, that's fine. But then you have to look for other ways that you are going to signal your capability and your competence because if that remains purely hidden, you're missing one of the two really important variables that's going to lead your audience to respect you. So, I, you know, a lot of times it's like that one-on-one coaching of, well, what could you say instead or what could you, what could you do? And I do think that as you're saying, why did I do that in the first place? Was I trying not to make another person feel bad? You know, what was I trying to achieve? And then how else could I go about it? You almost always find a different path that feels just as authentic that might be a little bit more strategic. When we see young people, and I do think it's also quite different when you're an adult who can assess very quickly a situation and what's needed from that situation. And again, I don't know that these things are conscious, but I think we know how to unconsciously assess those interactions. Maybe not. I mean, that's why hearing from you is so helpful. But with young people, they haven't practiced this. So, what are some ways for them to practice toggling those two skills? Yeah, everybody actually, everyone has to practice. I mean, as I said, like I do this for a living and I got a full book full of red lines from an editor about how much I was deprecating. So they're not- So I think, but I say to kids the same thing, I say to adults, which is you need to practice in a situation that is low stakes. Now, what low stakes means for kids and adults are different. For adults, I tell them to go to the airport because you can, you should talk up to your- you know, you're going to sit next to some person that you chat with on the airplane. You're going to be able to negotiate for yourself at the airport because something always goes wrong. Like practice skills in environments that feel safe enough, that gives you the confidence to then practice them and do them in higher risk situations. So with my kids, for example, everything always feels super high stakes, right? So like when my kids go to camp, for example, and they'll be like, you know, dealing with something and some of the camps might be purely social and some of them are academic where there's faculty involved and stuff. But everything feels like a big deal. And I would say, you're never going to see these people again unless you really want to. Not of them, even the teachers, right? So this- let me reframe this for you. This is actually a safe space for you to practice. You should go there and do this. Whereas your high school might- or your middle school might feel like a higher risk place. That's like your workplace for now. And you can't- if you mess it up at work, you have to look with those consequences. So I understand why you don't want to practice here. But let's go to places where you can practice. So the other- my kid, my middle child, is negotiating for me to get the tonal, which is like a gym- like an expensive piece of gym equipment you can get for your house. And I said, well, we got first going to figure out if it's going to fit. And he's on the app and he's like, there's a chat, there's a call feature. I wonder if I should put in for them to call me back. I said, yeah. So then he- the person calls back and he's in the car with me. He tries to hand me the speaker phone as I'm driving. So I'll talk- I'm like, I don't even want a tonal. And so I just go like this, like you talk to him. He's 14. And so he gets on and he's like asking the questions and gets up. And then he hangs up and I said, I said, the reason I wasn't going to talk is because- was like back in my day, there was a house phone with a cord and you had to talk to people's parents. I said, you never have to talk to a stranger that you don't want to. And because you have a phone, you have a cell phone. So I said, you have. And he said, I think I did a good job with that. So you did a very good job with that. So but if you can't talk to the representative who's selling you a piece of gym equipment, you're never going to be able to advocate for yourself. So I just look for those little opportunities and I reframe for them. This feels like a big deal to you. But like that guy you will never talk to him again. So this is low stakes. That- and that's what I think is- is the key is help them recognize the low stakes moments. And- and give them a little slack that you don't want to us. High school now feels low stakes because we're 30 years- 30 years in the rear-view mirror. And so you sometimes wish you took more risks then. But it didn't feel low stakes to you at the time and I- you have to remember that which is they can probably push more than they're willing to because 30 years from now they won't care. But 30 years is a long time to wait when you're 15. And so giving them that pass to say, this is your workplace right now. And I don't encourage people when they're learning new skills to go into work and try them on their boss. So you probably don't want your kid to go into school and try it for the first time in a really important relationship. You know I'm thinking about different personality types and I'm thinking about quite introverted kids and adults. Do you have a different approach that is- it's probably more relevant because it doesn't come necessarily as naturally. Do you distinguish between sort of personality types when you're working with people or thinking about data and expressing this competence and also warmth? The idea is what is a stretch for one person is not a stretch for another person. So if I compare my own children, that middle child there, he chats with people all day long, he's kind of a born sales person. My oldest child is incredibly successful, but also very self-deprecating and very introverted and would rather die than have to talk about himself at all. So for him, a stretch of putting yourself out there is actually going to be a something that my 14-year-old could probably already do, and it wouldn't stress him out at all. So that's the issue. I always say to people the right way to practice is it makes you like just this uncomfortable. In the same way that people talk about exercise, the workout that I can do that will make me a better runner is not the workout that the Olympic runners are doing. I could, I would literally kill over if I did that, and if they did mine, they would be so born. So practice has to be targeted to the individual. So when I'm talking to my different kids who have very different personalities and styles, I have to recognize that what pushes one terrifies the other, and that has to do a lot with, as you said, what their underlying personality is, but also what their skills are. And do you see a difference in like generations? Because I think I make up a difference. Like I see it, I see a very big difference between the comfort level that I have versus the comfort level of somebody 15-year-old younger versus 15-year younger than that, and certainly young, the junior high school students or something. But I'm just curious in the workplace, in the mom circles, in high schools, and I'm sorry to gender all of this, but I think it comes up in my mind so much with women. What do you see as trans? Well, I mean, I want to say, as social psychologists, I spend a lot of time focusing on what unites all human beings, more than what differentiates us. One thing I will say is the right comparisons to make are not like us now and them now, because there's, it's really us as our experience right now. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Right. And so you really have to say, like, okay, when that 15-year-old is 50, what will they be, how similar will they be to us if they, if you could drop them into like our life right now or how they're. So sometimes the answer is we don't yet know, because one, when we try to go back and think about who we were, there's a great retelling of history that happens that we are not necessarily probably remembering exactly who we were and how we approach these things, right? And we don't know yet who they will, will become. But certainly there's no doubt, when you observe things, there are meaningful, there are meaningful differences that we, you know, see. One is just simply, I haven't heard of the, what is her name, Vivian too. She has the rich AF and your rich BFF. I was at a conference she was also speaking at. And one of the things she said was the whole idea of keeping up with the Joneses, she said, well, back in our day, our Gen X day, the Joneses were literally people who live next door to you. And so the idea of keeping up with the Joneses made sense, because if they lived on your street, then they probably had like around the same level of wealth that you did and we probably had a lot of similarities. But now the Joneses are people you see on social media, they have nothing to do with you, right? They're like in a totally different stratosphere, you're trying to keep up with people that are no longer at your cure level. And I thought it was a really interesting concept, right? And so I do think that this is different, that we are all very attuned, right? Status, and who's respected and thinking about, okay, well, then if I did that too, would that make me more worthy of status and et cetera? And that, some of that is very productive to say, okay, I can modulate what I'm doing here based on the feedback, so that I can get the reward that is really going to be good for my life. Like that's not a tarot keeping the idea of keeping up with the Joneses is not in itself a horrible thing, but you had to pick your comparison well. And one thing is definitely change is with the information that we now have available to us that was not available when we were growing up, you have a much wider variety of comparison points. And so it's a lot more noise to figure out who's actually a good comparison. Like to see the kid next to you, like who's getting like better outcomes on his tests and on her test doing well, et cetera, and saying, okay, I'm going to try to emulate that. Like, all right, that's one thing, but again, finding somebody on social and saying, I'm going to do the thing they did, you just have no idea of what their their backstory is. So I think that's one area is that the upward and downward comparisons we are making are so much noisier than when we were doing all of that without social media. That's such a good point. I really hadn't thought about it that when she said that, like the Joneses were your neighbor and it like, yeah, you know, it was like, like, I was a big light bulb of like, that's right. Like, yes, to try to aspire to what your neighbor has is a fundamentally different thing than to aspire to what, you know, the Kardashians have. Okay, so let's translate this to parenthood and how we really do need to have, it does have funny saying like, high status with in the eyes of your kids. But talk a little bit about that because when you think about when you translate, like, we need warmth and limits, right? Like, that's those are sort of the framework of parenting that is associated with the best outcomes. There's something very aligned with the idea of being a likable badass. So I just want you to am I leaning too much into the title? No, you can never leave the title. Yes, this is so no matter your audience, whether your audience is your colleague, your friend or your child, you will have a better relationship if they respect you. Well, your child is evaluating you on the same two things that your colleague or your friend is, which is, do you care about me? And do you know what you're talking about? And so when you think about being influential with your kids, when they start to resist you, they resist you for one of those two reasons. They think you don't have my best interests at heart. You're trying to do something that's good for you or that what you would want if you were me. You don't really care about me. We get that push back. And mommy, don't know what you're talking about. That's not how it works anymore or it doesn't happen that way. And when you get those two things, they're basically saying I don't respect your opinion. Therefore, you cannot be influential with me. So it's the same challenge that we have and it can be maddening, right? When an and breaks your heart in the same way we seek status, even from our own children. And as they get older and they become adults, that's all you have is they have to decide and respect that you have their best interests. And you know what you're talking about. So anything we can do to convey those two things and convince them of those two things, all along the way sets the foundation for being influential. And so when you feel frustrated in that relationship, it's probably because one of those two things, they're not and this thing, they're all right on both dimensions. This is a crazy part about status. You care about them so deeply, right? It keeps you up at night and you know what you're talking about. And so this is the thing. Status is perception and it can be super frustrating when you're doing all the right stuff, whether as a woman in the workplace, a parent at home, etc. And you're like, in my audience, doesn't see it. But this is your most important audience. Your kids are your most important audience. And so you're not going to give up on them. And you're going to say, okay, well, I just need to convince you and you use all the tools at your disposal. Sometimes we bring in a trusted third party that says, Hey, you know what? You don't think I know what I'm talking about. Fine. That's where the swim teacher comes in. That's where the coach comes in. That's where the tutor comes in and says, okay, I'm going to put this person in your face because you believe this person cares about you and this person knows what they're doing. I could have done the same thing, but I'll change the messenger. So we use these different tools. And when we do it, what we're fundamentally trying to do is we are trying to get that message in front of our kids is you need somebody in your face that you believe these two things up. And I'm going to play the long game. It's going to be me eventually, but it might not be me today and this moment. And that's where we have to think about what those workarounds that we have and all those other people that we bring into our kids' lives are doing. I mean, sometimes quite honestly, I even with my other mom friends, we will like orchestrate peer pressure and it doesn't work very well on my oldest child, but I'll be like, my son won't do X. And we all know that like our kids need all to be doing this. We should just have our kids tell each other to go do X and then they'll go do it. And I'm like, that's a good point. We should totally do it. So we're like creating big, because oh, you'll listen to your friend if your friend tells you to do it. So that's what it really what's happening. And so if we can start to think about parenting on those two dimensions is like right now it is my kid believe I care. And do they believe I know what I'm talking about. And if the answer is no, it explains the resistance. So either I have to change it or in the short term, I have to change the messenger so that I could get a better outcome. And then I have to think about setting that longer term foundation for how you will eventually come to believe those two things about me. That's amazing. That's a fantastic point and way to end. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.