Understanding Child Development - Episode 43 (Season 3 Premiere)

Welcome to Preschool and Beyond, a podcast where we tackle some of the most common and the most challenging issues facing preschool-aged children and their family. Reporting from Discovery Child Development Center is your host Mike Delod. Hi and welcome to season three of Preschool and Beyond. I am so excited to be back with you for another year of discussing research and strategies on supporting preschool-aged children. Thank you for being a listener and for all the support this podcast has received. I'm especially excited for today's episode. In our book, What If Everyone Understood Child Development, Straight Talk About Bettering Education and Children's Slives Author Ray Pika addresses a variety of topics related to the growth and development of children such as the value of play, why children need to move, the benefits of risk-taking, and why bribes and threats may work, but still best not to use them. Thank you so much for joining us today Ray. Thanks for inviting me Mike. And I talked before this show with Ray a little bit. It's a particular honor for me today to have her on because back when we were starting our school 10 years ago, my wife Alex, her first assignment for me was to look at different resources to incorporate movement into our curriculum. So the first books I purchased were written by Ray. I'm really honored by that. Also very impressed by Alex. Smart, smart woman. And Ray is you know, written, I was at 19 books. I just submitted by 20th manuscript. He got relations. Thanks. And yes, she also started a radio. We'll talk later about your resources, but she has her BAM radio, her radio show, and she just has such a great wealth of knowledge. So I'm so excited to chat with you. Thanks. Many people equate sitting still and being quiet is that's you know, true learning. As someone who has written extensively about the importance of movement, what are some of the strongest arguments against such an approach to teaching and learning? Research, what the research shows, you know, back in the day, we're probably all seeing those photos, white of children, in the olden days, sitting motionless and those rows of desks. And I mean, back then they didn't have any research. That just seemed like the best way to teach perhaps it was considered the best way to control the children. And one of my least favorite sentences, well, it's always been done this way. It just kind of makes me crazy. So just because it was done that way doesn't mean we have to continue doing it that way. They didn't have the research then. We've got the research now. Among other things, we know that sitting increases fatigue and reduces concentration, which by the way also increases behavioral issues. So why would we want them to sit more? You know, there's so much, the brain is more activated when children are physically moving. I'm a big proponent of active learning than when doing seat work. I mean, there's just so much. They keep coming out with more and more news stories as though it's news about the impact of physical activity on learning. So yeah, I guess my strongest argument is all the research that we have that shows it's not sitting does not equal learning. And if it's going to make children tired, and if we think about it, you know, as adults, if we've ever been in a conference all day long or a meeting or on a plane, at the end of the day, we're exhausted. We might not know why. Well, it's because sitting makes us tired. So, you know, we don't need tired, cranky children trying to absorb information. Absolutely. I was just thinking about when we were talking about adults. One strategy I used in college was when I had big examines, I would sit for an amount of like 15, 20 minutes in the library. And then I would take a couple laps around the library. And it's much better when I got back. And here I was 18, 19, 20 years old. And now you're talking about three and four year olds. You know, they need to move. They absolutely. They need to move more than we do. And there's a wonderful image that I've used courtesy of Dr. Charles Hillman, I think it's the University of Illinois. And it shows two brains. And the one on the left is not lit up at all. And it's you know, the sitting brain. And then one on the right is after a 20 minute walk. And it's all lit up with beautiful colors. And that's, that's, I mean, it really speaks for itself. What you did was really, really smart back in the day. Yeah, I probably thought I was just procrastinating. But it was, you know, I always felt better when I got back. So, yeah. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about failure. This as parents can be really difficult for our CR children try something and not succeed. So many parents will go out of their way to avoid those situations and not see their child's struggle. Why is that a mistake? Well, it is hard to watch your child's struggle. Yes. You know, and it's hard. We're also busy also, you know, to watch Camerher try to get a jacket on, for example, and you're trying to get out the door and he's, he's, you know, got the arms in the wrong place or whatever it is. You want to help out. You don't want him to feel like a failure. And all of that, you know, makes perfect sense except that we need to let children do things on their own if they're going to become independent autonomous adults. We sort of think that these skills will sort of miraculously appear just because a child has grown three, four feet. You know, it doesn't work that way. These skills need to be learned and early childhood. So they need to learn to do things for themselves and they have to fail because that's how we all learn. We all learn to a failure. You know, we make mistakes and it's oops didn't get that quite right. I wonder what I can do to fix that. And you know, I talk a lot to my audience is about what children will need in the future in terms of, you know, careers. We don't even know what their future will look like because things are changing so rapidly and many, many of the jobs the children will have in the future don't exist now. So we can't fully prepare them for a future that we can't imagine. The one thing that we do know, the one skill they will need is the ability to solve problems. And if we're always solving their problems for them and protecting them from making mistakes, then they're going to be in pretty bad shape. In fact, Mike, if you talk to a university or college mental health counselors or, you know, I guess that's what they're called. When today they're seeing students, college students coming to them for every little problem and for things that, you know, they used to be able to solve on their own, but they can't anymore because they haven't been prepared to solve problems or to take risks. You know, if we don't let children fail, you know, then they will stop taking any risks, whether we're talking about creative risks or physical risks or, you know, I mean, walking across the street is a physical risk. We just have to stop, we have to stop bubble wrapping them. Right. And I think going along with that, what you're talking about, like they become good, teachable moments, you know, maybe in the right afternoon, it might not be quite the time, depending on, you know, what their state is if something doesn't go their way, but then reflecting back, you know, okay, you know, this didn't go the way you wanted it to. What can we, what steps can we take next time to help avoid that? And if there are ways that we can support them and the way that are appropriate, then okay, and then there are some things that they do need to do on their own. Yeah. And asking those kinds of questions, it's always a great idea, you know, letting them feel, take ownership of it and feel some pride when they managed to overcome an obstacle. Yes. Yeah. And that's one thing I get sometimes here at the school with parents who might have, their child might have a disagreement or, you know, have an ongoing dispute with another child. And, you know, my instinct is always first, let's see, let's try to help them work through it, because on almost every class, you know, there's going to be someone who they may not get along with or have an issue, but we want to see how do we handle it when those things come up. So the next time, it's not such a big deal. Yeah, conflict resolution is a very big part of problem solving, really all of life, you know, involves problem solving, whether it's trying to figure out how to stay in a budget or, you know, resolve a conflict or, I mean, yeah. It's one big problem solving experience life is. Absolutely. So when talking about kindergarten and preschool, you know, you lament some of the changes that have gone on, you know, everything seems to be pushed forward. So kindergarten's become a lot more academic and as a result many preschooler preschools have decided to move in that direction. What are the consequences of this big emphasis on academics overplay for children? Really, you phrased that very mildly. I rail against it. I rail against it. There's so much to say that I don't even know where to begin. The idea that earlier is better has overtaken our society and others as well around the world. It's nonsense. It's a myth and it's being fed to parents on a daily basis. They're getting so much misinformation and they're pushing to have. They're ignoring the child care centers and preschools that are play-based in favor of those that are academics oriented. I do understand parents are the easiest group of people in the world to scare. Really, we can frighten them so easily. If you tell someone that their child will fall behind if they don't know three languages by the age of seven months and I'm only exaggerating slightly, then they'll go into free fall panic. The thing is, there are many things actually, but child development cannot be accelerated. Mother Nature had a plan and we can't change it no matter how much we might want to for whatever reason. Play is what Nancy Carlson Paige, a colleague that I really look up to. She calls it a biological imperative and she's not the only one. There are experts all around the world to talk about the importance of play. It is how children are supposed to learn all young animals play. I use the example of bringing home a kitten or a puppy and not letting it play. It's ridiculous. Why would we do that to human, young human animals? So, I mean, doctors Stuart Brown has talked about going into prisons and interviewing the most hardened criminals and finding out that none of them played none of them. And then we have Dr. Peter Gray, who shows a correlation between the decline of play in childhood and the increase in depression. I mean, if you Google preschool depression, you will get depressed. It's really, really sad. Children are meant to play. And the other thing is if we're focusing on academics, what are we doing? We're mostly making them sit. Filling in bubbles or whatever it might be on a worksheet, worksheets are the enemy. That is not involved problem solving. That does not involve creativity and imagination. That does not involve moving out of your seat. It's as though we think children exist only from the neck up. And there's again, there's so much research showing the relationship between the mind and the body. So, I don't know. I may have got enough track there. If your parent listening find a school that is play based, find a school that lets children explore and discover and learn on their own, we don't have to encourage children to learn. They love to learn. What they don't love is when we insist that they do things for which they're not developmentally equipped. And I hear so many stories these days, Mike. I mean, whether it's the young teacher who's boasting to a college professor, friend of mine, that, and she's already, you know, in the classroom teaching. And she says, we're teaching the three-year-olds a word a week, words like hypothesis. Now, you know that hypotheses are just not relevant to the three-year-olds life. There is absolutely no need for the child to know that word or study in the continents. You know, how about the neighborhood? The continents couldn't be more abstract for young children. Or then there's the mom I heard from who is desperate because her child care center kept sending home notes about negative notes about her three-year-old son saying, "A, he could not sit still and be, he could not yet hold a pencil." Well, she said, "Should he be able to do those things at three?" Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And anyone who's trying to make him do those things does not understand child development and that it can't be hurried. Yeah. No, absolutely. And whatever his tell parents on tours when they asked about such things and talk about the academic pressures coming later, is that, although that is true and not, you know, what we would like to see at elementary school, this is an age where, as you mentioned, kids are so excited to come to school. They want to learn. They love exploring their world, making different connections. So, this is the time to tap into that. You know, they'll have enough of that stressful stuff coming later with their end of year, test and all their homework and all that. But that doesn't mean giving them these life skills. They will be prepared for not just kindergarten, but learning how to think, learning how to cooperate with other kids, learn how to be a part of a group, resolving conflict. All that stuff is, you know, the social, social skills that preschool is the perfect time to begin learning those. Exactly. As I said, you know, it's an early childhood that they learn all of these things and they don't just suddenly know how to cooperate or resolve conflict. So, do anything's other things just because they're, you know, 12 or 16 or 21 or 50, you know, you have to learn these things. That's a progression. It's a developmental progression. Yeah. I know it's frustrating for directors like yourself, you know, when parents want to know why it's not more academics oriented and, you know, why my one of my least favorite questions is, why are you doing this stuff? Yeah. But, you know, the research shows again that children who start things when they're developmentally ready, whether they're talking about academics or athletics, easily catch up and often surpass those children who were forced really to do things before they were developmentally ready. And when we think about reading the common core standards for kindergarten so that every child will, you know, know how to read by the end of that grade. Well, that's just nonsense. Some children will be ready to read it for some children, you know, Dr. Carla Hanoverd, author of my favorite professional book. She's a neurophysiologist. She did not read until she was 10 and she did okay. You know, so by the other thing to note is that by third grade, you cannot tell the difference between those children who read early and those who read when they were ready. So it's all even doubt by then. Right. But as you talked about, it is impressive for parents to say to other parents, my child's reading, my child is hypothesis versus, you know, they're great at resolving conflicts, which is, you know, a great skill. But it doesn't, you know, quite turn heads the way these other things do so. When did parenting become a competitive sport? Right. Sorry. Yeah, no way. Definitely has become one. I think in many areas, but yes, absolutely should not be. No, I mean, there was some of the other things to take pride in our children for. You know, I think resolving conflicts and learning to cooperate would be something I would feel most proud about. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about one common parenting method or sometimes you spy teachers as well are the bribes and the threats. And you mentioned in your book that they often do work, but they should be avoided. They are used often very often by teachers as well. What I said in the book was that they work short term, you know, if you want the child to do something immediately and you offer a bribe, you know, they'll do it. But the more you do that sort of thing, the more they come to expect their reward. And then what happens when the rewards are no longer there, they're going to get to school and then jobs. And no one's going to be handing out rewards for doing your report or whatever it may be. So what we're after is. Is stimulated the child's intrinsic motivation rewards are extrinsic motivation. You do things because you're going to get something in return. And, you know, we don't want it into being a person. like that running around in the world. We want people who are doing things because it feels good. And for young children learning feels good. Their intrinsic motivation comes from things that are fun. Now, of course, you know, you might want them to pick up their room or whatever it might be. But offering rewards for that sort of thing again is not going to help them out in the long run. And really, that's what we need to be concerned with. Parents especially, you know, I can see how teachers might be a little bit more tempted to use it. But parents especially want children to grow up with character. And it doesn't come from only doing things because you're getting something back. They kind of follow up with that going along with the same line. And one thing that we often do as educators and parents to reinforce the behaviors that we want to see is to say things like, "Good job." And he is much of that kind of praise on them. How would you give positive, I know, that's not the way you would give positive feedback. So if you talk a little bit about what is a better way to do it? Yeah, I happily, I mean, good job is one of those pet peeves. You know, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a parent say that for every little thing, I mean, sneezing, good job. You know, I would be a very wealthy woman. Okay, boy. So it doesn't tell children anything. If you've asked the children to practice their jumps and you say, "Good job, good job." They don't know what was good about it. But if you say, "Oh, your jump was very light," or your jump was very heavy, or that was high. Or if it just came a little bit off the ground with that jump, then you're describing. You're offering them information that they can use. Good job is, well, it's like the praise and the rewards and the bribes. I mean, you're just panning them on the head for every little thing. And at some point, a teacher or an employer is not going to say, "Good job, good job, good job." And you can't get used to it. They become praise junkies. They really do. And I'm really proud of that. And believe me, this is a hard habit to break. I had to break it myself. Really, really hard. And when I was teaching as an adjunct at the University of New Hampshire many years ago, I would bring in a group of young children, I think five years from a local childcare center, for my students to work with. And we're physical education majors, and it was like they'd never seen a five-year-old before. So I had them teaching the little ones. And all I heard was, "Good job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job." And eventually, if the children don't become praise junkies, they just tune it out. And they also know when their hearing falls praise. And we don't want to do that. We want to respect them more than that. So that's the short answer, I guess. And yeah, just going along with that, the hard habit to break. I've read so many books, taken courses, interviewed so many people, and then yesterday, or a couple days ago, I caught myself who my son did something, just saying good job. And then I did catch myself. But you know, it's just. You get to the point where you can bite your tongue before it comes out. You know, you'll start saying it, then bite your tongue, and then eventually, you'll bite your tongue. One thing I thought was interesting, one of many things in your book was when you were talking about the zero tolerance policies that many schools and parents have in their homes. I know many parents are really concerned about whether it's violence at school, or they're in their community, or in the community, so they don't want their child making any sorts of weapons, weapons sounds. But you do not agree with that approach. No, I don't. And you know, this is based on the work of so many others, among the Nancy Carlson page, on Ham Radio Network. I have interviewed her a couple of times about this particular topic. You know, children around the world, well, you know, very little in common in their environments and such, all do the same thing. You know, they play bang bang, they make imaginary weapons. It does not turn them into monsters or, you know, bad guys. It's just something that they do. That sort of play, it's dramatic play, and it's a way that they work things out in their world. I mean, for heaven's sakes, you know, I played cops and robbers. Didn't you play that when you were young? Yeah. It didn't turn me in. I mean, I'm pretty much of a pacifist, you know. So I would just encourage parents not to worry about that sort of thing. And definitely go to Bam Radio Network.com and put Nancy Carlson pages, name into the search box and listen to one or both of those interviews. They're really, they're really, really good. And one comment I would just make too is the difference between what you're describing, you know, the child's involved in that play and what media they're receiving. Like, yeah, because you definitely want to be careful in what they're exposed to when there is. I know a lot of young children are watching programming. That is extremely violent. Exactly. And, you know, there's also research that shows even if the TV is just on the background, it's not a very good idea for them to be hearing things. So adults are getting parents, especially getting a lot of misinformation. And as a result, their priorities are a little mixed up. You know, they will let the children watch these things on TV or movies or whatever. But they don't want them playing Bang, Bang, I gotcha. Right. So it's hard. You know, there's a lot of research out there that just is not reaching parents. What's frustrating to me is how much research there is that the policymaker is ignored. You know, I mean, like about play versus academics and the pointlessness of testing, especially at a young age, it's just enormously frustrating. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Here in this country, we don't just do it over and over again in our educational system. We just keep doing more and more of it. And it's definitely insane. Yes. So we've spent a good amount today talking about things that we should not be doing that are not good practices for educating and raising children. Let's end before we get to our show and tell with something that we should be doing. So if you could recommend one new habit, parents can start implementing tomorrow with their child. What would that be? Oh, take them off the screens. I mean, you know, make them. Oh gosh, Mike, I just heard a story about a dad who punished his little boy by making him go, by making him go out to play. Oh, no. Which maybe the most appalling thing I've ever heard. You know, going outside to play. You know, Linoa, Skenezy, whose free range kids talks about letting them do, you know, having parents do one thing that scares them, letting their child cross the road, you know, whatever it might be. So that would that would be her advice. One habit that that I would encourage parents to change. But the screens, the screens, I mean, we have obesity. We have an onslaught of myopia and depression, aggression, delays in language skills. All of this is coming from too much screen time. And I mean, and then there was so many health risks inherent in all that sedentary behavior. They need to play. They really need to play outdoors. They're losing their connection to nature. So, you know, if you must go outside with your child, lie on the grass and find creatures in the clouds. You know, play bang, bang with her. We, um, reminds me, and I've told the story I'm here before, but once I went out with a group of preschoolers right outside our school, and you know, it was just like one step into the woods and one girl turned to me, she's like, this place is so scary. We're not in the city. There are plenty of trees around and, you know, just being amongst the trees was really frightening and something she'd never done before. Yeah, and that, you know, reminds me too that it's the safest time in America to be a child. Nobody believes it because we're in the city. we've got all this media and marketers scaring us to death, but it is the safest time in America to be a child. So we have to set them free a little bit, and do away with the bubble wrapping. - Absolutely. So that brings us to the final portion of our show, the show and tell segment, where guests will share recommendation, tip or piece of advice, and I was hoping today, Ray, you can share some of your many fabulous resources you have for parents, families and educators. - Thanks. Well, Raypeca.com is where you can find out more about me and there are articles and blog posts, where I ran to belt this out of the other thing. And people should feel free to copy, print them up, make copies, hand them out to parents and administrators, as long as there's credit there that's fine with me. Then of course, bamradionetwork.com is where I was hosting. Oh, my show went through three iterations. The first it was Body, Mind and Child, then it was Teachers Aid, and then it was Student Centricity, which is a name I really hate, but I didn't give it that. So, there are wonderful interviews there. I've done over 500 of them with experts in play research, child development, education, the neurosciences and a lot more. So that's definitely a great resource for parents as well. - Excellent. And we'll link to all this in the show notes and I highly encourage families that are listening to this to check out those resources. Ray year work is some of the first I look to when I'm looking for quality materials for both our school and for families. So I highly encourage people to check them out. - Thank you, Mike. Appreciate that. You can find links to what we talked about on our show notes page, www.discoverychildevalenmentcenter.com/podcasts. On our Facebook page, Facebook.com/priesticalambion. We thank you all for listening and we will see you again in two weeks. Priestical and beyond is part of the parents on demand network. The first podcast network devoted to parents and families. Download our free app for Apple or Android. Here's another podcast on our network. We think you may enjoy. - Hi, I'm Maria Alcoke. I'm a business owner, level one crossfit trainer, pre-imposed natal coach and a mom. And I'm the host of the Endjamon podcast. The Endjamon podcast is a show designed to build connection through storytelling, to provide perspective and inspire moms to discover what fuels them, set goals for themselves, and think outside the box when it comes to their lifestyle and work. Are you ready to feel connected to other moms who are just as driven as you are? Subscribe to the Endjamon podcast today.