Under-the-Radar Players Driving Winning or Losing, and Rookie Roundtable!

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Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects. Ask your doctor about Caplida. Learn more at Caplida.com or call 888-788-8888. 2-5-2-4-8-2-4. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show, a lot of stuff happened over the weekend, and Rob Mahoney, the great Rob Mahoney, is here to talk about all of it with us. Sadly, we have to start with more injuries. Chet Holmgren just added atop the pile of injury issues to the Oklahoma City Thunder. My pick to win the championship, one of the kind of co-favorites at least to win the championship, Avenge last season. Conference finals lost to the Spurs. They looked like they were out for all hell to open the season, and then they've just been hit with an unprecedented barrage of injuries to their top players. What does it mean for the Thunder going forward? How do they navigate this year? How do they navigate their tax situation? All of that. We're going to get into all that with Rob. What does it mean to the MVP race? What does it mean to the title race? What does it mean to the seedings? There's just endless implications to all of this. It's actually kind of crazy. We're going to talk Yaxel Mania in Golden State. John Morant's out for a month. In Portland is the feel-good story about to run into some roadblocks in Portland. Maybe, maybe not. The schedule's pretty tough. The NBA Cup started. I made my picks. I based them on almost nothing, but I'm hell-bent on all of them coming true. And then Rob and I are going to each pick five role players slash under-the-radar guys who are driving winning for their teams and not getting enough love for it, and five under-the-radar role player guys who are not driving winning for their teams and maybe need to start playing better. That's all coming up on a loaded. Monday Morning Zach Lowe Show. The Zach Lowe Show is presented by FanDuel. It's the NBA season and FanDuel's calling it your most rewarding season ever. I mean, more rewarding than watching a center pull up from three and actually knock it down? That's good stuff. With FanDuel Rewards Club's offers, surprises, and more, there's plenty to look forward to all season long. Download the FanDuel app to get started. 21 or over in select states, 18 or over in D.C. or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-7895. or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Monday morning. A lot happened over the NBA weekend punctuated by Luka Doncic's 45 points and yet another Los Angeles Lakers win over the Toronto Raptors. We're going to talk about that, the MVP race, all that stuff, the NBA cup lots of stuff with rob mahoney there he is how you doing zach i'm doing great um i'm my head's spinning a little bit but i think we're all recalibrating after the initial wave of every fucking thing happening in the nba it seems like there's a lot going on and there are a million games tonight i don't know why this monday night became so crowded so it's going to be fun we're going to talk about a lot of players who are playing well and playing badly and i'm sure they will all reverse their narratives in these games tonight and make this a fun list but we have to start with the big news of the weekend yet another injury to the oklahoma city thunder chet holmgren is out eight to ten weeks joining jaylen williams case and wallace alex crusoe and of course three uh players who were jettisoned off the thunder for cap apron whatever reasons lou dort aaron wiggins isaiah joe just an unprecedented level of decimation to a team that i picked to win the title i think you picked to win the title but no maybe you picked you did as well. Yeah. And came out like the proverbial bat out of hell to start the season. Like we're just out for revenge. We're out to stop everybody. We're out to like prove that. Yeah. We're still the best team. And now, I mean, they've lost two in a row. Not neither of the games was close. Really? They have Cleveland coming up in a, in a little baseball series home and away. And I just don't even know how to think about this team anymore. I think the more interesting discussions are the bigger picture discussions. Like what, what does it mean for how they approach this particular season? What does it mean for how they approach their cap sheet going forward, which is going to get enormously expensive in like the hundreds of millions of taxes alone. We saw over the weekend, they declined their team option for next season on Nicola Topic, but picked up their team option on Thomas Sorber. I don't even know where to start with this. I would start here. I'm not closing the door on J-Dub returning in the playoffs, assuming that they make the playoffs. I'm expecting him to be out for the season because we all saw what happened. But I'm not, based on what I've heard, I'm not closing the door until the Thunder actually publicly close it and or he actually publicly closes it. Case and Wallace, I have no idea. the history of Torin Abrams is not encouraging chat eight to 10 weeks. So like, think about the implications of this. Number one, I think the most likely course of action, and we'll talk about other courses of action is that they're just like, let's hold the fort. No, we're not going to do anything crazy. We might not even do any wind marginal, like when now try to find a $18 million player who can stop up some minutes, get Caruso healthy, survive this stretch without chat. we have a million big men win enough games that were in the top six and then hope to get a little healthier at the end of the season at least get shut back at the toward the middle of the season and stabilize think about the implications of that for the rest of the west there's always been this dream scenario among the non-thunder spurs teams that man wouldn't it be great if they had to face each other before the conference finals and we could go through the bracket without having to knock off both of them, that's like very much on the table with or without all of these players. Number two, the flip side is Oklahoma city could become an absolute nightmare first round opponent for like, I don't, I don't even know, like we could get to the end of the season and be like, okay, Oklahoma city's fifth, fourth, sixth. I don't know. Like, are we jockeying to avoid a suddenly healthy-ish thunder team? It has implications for the MVP race, which we will talk about shortly because Shea is off to, by his standards, a slow start. And it appears that he will not have the Thunder won a million more games than everybody else advantage. I don't know. Like, there's three kind of courses of action broadly. Number one, stay afloat. Don't do anything big and just stay the course. This is the Thunder way. Number two, all of this, our own championship experience, the Pacers experience in the finals of that series, our experience with health injuries, whatever since has sort of hammered into us. Every chance you get is absolutely precious. We can still make something of this season with a really dramatic win now trade, like for a big player or two big players. And it would require us sending out a big salary. Maybe it's Jalen Williams salary. And just for a player who's going to help us this year and is maybe 90% as good. That seems extremely on thunder. Like to me, maybe it's Isaiah Hardenstein salary. They are most well fortified at his position and his contract is not very long. Maybe it's that's path one path two. And then path three is we, maybe we combine like a sorber plus Ken, rich Williams plus something else get up to like $20 million and bring back a player that's worth that amount of money. They can't really go up too much in salary because of the tax in the second apron. What do you think of those paths? Stan Pat, big trade, small trade. What do you think they do? I think Stan Pat is by far the most likely. And as you said, the most thunder, I'm loathe to criticize it too much when you're as stacked in terms of talent and ability and cohesion as the thunder are like, this is a model we know works this is a group of players that make a lot of sense together when not even they're all healthy but enough of them are healthy i completely get why you would buy into just continuing that but okc does have enough stuff as you laid out not just in terms of the contract but the like and picks part of that is easier for them than the vast majority of teams and so the combination of that stuff i would love to see a more modest deal and i would love to see one that kind of fits in theme with what they're already doing. We've already seen them at the start of the season just by incorporating a Daimara, for example. Kind of. start to de-emphasize what Isaiah Hartenstein could mean to this team. There are a lot of teams that could use Isaiah Hartenstein. And so if you package him and Picks or him and Sorber or however you want to do that in all the options that you laid out, I think that there's something there that could really help them and would insulate them from some of the realities of their circumstances, which are not doom and gloom. The Thunder are going to be better than they've been. They're going to get their feet under them. I think what they're experiencing right now is they just can't afford a bad A.J. Mitchell game anymore. They can't afford a bad Jared McCain game anymore. They have no insulation whatsoever from their role players having an off night. And that's the reality when you have this many guys out of the lineup. But it doesn't have to be when they could make the kind of trade that you're talking about that doesn't rock the boat, that doesn't destabilize the core, that doesn't even really upset the team's long-term finances, but it's just like a make-do move for now to get you through this kind of season. Yeah, there are like three degrees of move. We're not really trading anybody essential in our rotation. And we can get up to $18 million in salary, $20 million in salary, add some picks and get a Herb Jones or like I went through all the names or like put in four picks and get Tumani Kamara or whatever it takes to pull him out of the Blazers, who, as we're going to talk about, are about to enter a hellish period of their own schedule. There's going to be a million names like that that emerge. Then there's move two, which is you pull the Hartenstein lever and you add another salary. And then you're in the running for a $30 million player. And I'm not saying that's a bad move. I'm leaving aside. I know they have an $18 million trade exception and a disabled player exception, given all the tax stuff, like there are different mechanics you can do this. And then there's move number three, which is the jail and Williams isn't healthy. Maybe we're worried. He's never going to be healthy. Can we trade him for a player that at least we know is very good and healthy. Now I threw out the hypothetical of a Michael Porter jr. Trade, which I think would make sense for the nets. I don't find him a particularly thundery player in a lot of respects, but those are the, the kind of like painful things you have to consider. If your mindset begins at, we have to make the most of this current season, or at least you're up more along that part of the continuum. I actually don't think they're going to be on that part of the continuum. I think we're both of the same mind that like the, the longer lens will win out, but eventually the longer lens won't win out. I just don't know if we've reached that. It's just by the way, I talked about, we've ad nauseum about all the injury stuff. Last Thursday. And I mentioned my pet idea. It's not even a pet idea. It's just an idea that I think deserves a discussion of the 40 minute game. I got a ton of feedback from around the league about what you hear. Well, I mean, one of the things that was, I heard a lot of this, you know, predictable stuff. Like we got to respect the history or I liked the idea would make the league more unpredictable. I, I would star players soak up, like play the same amount of minutes they do now and soak up more of the game. What does that mean for everybody else? One of the interesting pieces of feedback I heard from a coach is he said, one thing you didn't discuss is I love the anti-tanking rules. I think it's great for the game. It is making already. We feel it as a team, every game harder. Like there are just no easy games. And we've been talking about like internally, does that increase the risk of injuries? That's an interesting one that I hadn't sort of put all those pieces together. I think especially, I mean, in talking about the thunder, I think we're still trying to figure out the ways that, that depth manifests in the NBA and where those advantages are to press. Like you look at a team like Memphis and it's so clear if you run your rotation, the way that Thomas, he's so low does like you can just cycle guys in and out, keep constant pressure, be attacking the glass. Like all of that makes sense. Okay. See, as a team that should be able to weather a certain amount of injury. Now, anytime your second and third best players are out at the same time, it's going to be a little catastrophic or at least a little damaging. But I think I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether it's a 40 or 48, minute game. If, if the regular season is going to be this intense, what are the sorts of debt, like measures of depth that matter for the regular season, which are the ones that matter for the playoffs. And how do you somehow like walk the line between them? If you're trying to put one of these teams together, if you had to just out of nowhere, I have not prepped you for this at all. How many wins is Oklahoma city finished the season with what's your guess right now? 54 wins. I'd go lower. I'd go like, 49 to 51, but we're in the same territory of like strong top six. Don't worry about the play in kind of team. Yeah. Implication. Number two, much less serious. Look, maybe this is the Arab we're on year nine. It seems of, Hey, this is Luca Dodgers, who's MVP season. And he never has gotten there. His teams have generally sort of been, I wouldn't say they've underperformed in the regular season, but they've underperformed relative to like the top, top teams with other top players. He's averaging 38 points a game, seven assists, eight rebounds on 48% shooting 43% from threes. He had a much ballyhooed five steel game last night against Toronto. He's defending better. Like now we've seen this movie before where he has, like we saw last year where he's, he's clearly in good shape. He defends better. He talks about how he's going to defend better. And then the season goes on and it starts to look like more of the same, but like some of the steals he had last year, I mean, I think he's going to be able to play better than last year. I think he's going to play better than last year. I think he's going to be able to play better than last year. i would love to what do they have 132 points per 100 possessions and 113 allowed for a big fat plus 19 that's implication number one and implication number two is obviously Lakers and Rockets and to a lesser extent Denver who's kind of recovered a little bit have to feel like huh huh maybe we got more of a chance than we thought and obviously Houston has all the ammo to do something interesting I think that's what Houston is pretty scary I mean they've looked amazing I want to save some of the conversation about them for a little bit later but just the way that they've been able to pull some of their offensive issues together or erase them entirely to this point and the idea that they could make more moves that's where the lakers are like a little bit tapped out in the present tense right like this is more or less the team they're going to have that team it turns out is quite good quite formidable is really making things happen but i i've been very impressed with luca in every possible respect i'm glad you brought up the defense because if he is anything above disaster level on defense i think he's such a strong entrant into the MVP conversation if not leading it out right and I have to salute JJ Redick for innovation in the challenging space of you know I think the idea of using your challenges to curry favor with your superstar or to placate them is like going on all around the league all the time but specifically your defensively challenged superstar who's trying to draw charges this is like the best use of a challenge I think you could possibly have like the the motivational aspect of luca if you're gonna put your body on the line twice against scotty barnes like in the post i or rj bear like i guess we're just gonna reward you like we want this behavior to continue and so yes we will indulge you with your your waving hand challenge maybe this is what my daughter's frenemy francisco alvarez met starting catcher is doing because he is the absolute worst abs challenge catcher imaginable like the ball is a foot low and he's tapping he's tapping his head like challenge that maybe it's just like hey pitcher i thought that was a strike like i i'm with you i'm in i'm in the trenches with you otherwise he's he's needs some eyesight needs work um okay houston the only thing i'll say is this everyone's gonna want the sexy trade kairi's been mentioned a million times by the way as we're going to talk about dallas is good And Kyrie Cooper flag fit is very good. And like, I'm not, I kind of want to see what Fred Van Vliet has in the tank because he fits exactly what these guys need on both ends of the floor. He's always been a stout defender. He's a leader internally. It's not going to be Shangoon. It's not going to be Amen Thompson. And so you're like, just tell me what the trade is. Okay. Let's go to big story. Number two, we got three more to get to, and then we're going to have some fun. these are very quick I just can't believe this Yaxo Lendeborg thing 37 more points last night in a win over the absolutely hopeless and unwatchable LA Clippers he is now averaging I don't know I had the numbers in front of me and I don't have many now like 20 24 a game or something like that shooting 40 plus from three let me bring it up right now he is averaging 22.3 seven rebounds, four assists, 52%, 41% from three 60% on twos. Is he, he has a chance to be the first rookie since Blake Griffin to make the all-star team. That's where we are right now. And they've survived on the floor when he's been on the floor and Curry has been off the floor. Like he does everything. He's hitting threes, inverted pick and rolls posts. He's averaging almost let me see uh of let's i sorted it on a genius iq 76 players have have recorded at least 15 isolation plays this year um he is fourth in points per possession out of those isolation plays 1.52 points per possession and he's doing it quite a lot just this rookie class incredible i have already penned in yeah i'm going to be premature about it rob let's have a hot take It's a podcast in Penn first team, all rookie Lenda Borg. I'm sorry. Caleb Wilson, Cam Boozer, and I'm penning in DeBansa because I've seen enough already. I think he's going to be rock solid. It's in pen. And then the fifth spot is, I don't know what it is, but we can talk about some of the other guys, but just, I guess Yekso Landenborg is just awesome. And every rookie has got to do it for like a little bit longer before you anoint them. But he just looks kind of unstoppable and I don't believe it. Absolutely essential to the Warriors way of life all of a sudden. And not only in all the ways we were expecting, like, you know, coming out of the draft, even going into the draft, the profile of Yekso is like, oh, this is a perfect read and react Steve Kerr kind of player, right? A guy who's going to slot so seamlessly into their action, be able to like understand how to distribute, be like a Draymond facsimile. He'll set some pin-ins, some cute pin-in screens in the corner and have some handoffs and switch on defense. Not, he's going to average 25 points a game. He's also just Jimmy Butler, you know, like, like he, he's been that kind of role for them. And I caught him in person for the first time when we were out in Minneapolis for the group chat live show. And it was striking seeing all of the advantages that his length creates and the way it just completely stress tests your, your backline defense, like anyone rotating to try to get in front of him. He's so much bigger and stronger than even some of these NBA guys. It's, it's amazing to watch. And also like, I think just expect. Any rookie to come in with that kind of one-on-one scoring game who doesn't have the Caleb Wilson level athleticism is just like completely against the odds defies all logic of what we understand to go from the pipe that like Juco into transfer into completely misunderstood role player into now, like, is this not a formative star? Is this not a guy who could do these exact things for a long time? Even if he is, you know, 25 with a mortgage, like I just, I'm, I'm so shaken. With a mortgage is a great ad on, I didn't have a mortgage until I was, how old am I now? In my early forties, I'll say is the first mortgage I had. Well, maybe I'm speaking out of, out of school. You know, it is the Bay area. Times have changed. It's, it's all very complicated, but I just, I'm scrambling to kind of reestablish my understanding of who Yaxo Lendeborg is and night to night, that seems to change despite the fact that he's just torching everybody repeatedly. And you do need to just mentally. All of us. Hit the brakes a little bit like, what if we didn't know what, what if we just skid like Thelma and Louise off the cliff, you know, would that be so bad? There is another driving metaphor coming shortly. The warriors are four and three. They've won four in a row, including a hellacious come back against the Lakers on Friday when they were down through Saturday, whenever it wasn't, they were down 25 points. I think it was Friday and one by 18 or something preposterous like that. And look, I mean, I think. This is great for the warriors because if they just sort of stick around this area, like, I don't think they should feel pressure to do anything crazy. Wait this out. Let Jimmy Butler come back. Keep all your picks holstered for something else or in this draft or whatever. Just sort of feel out the season a little bit more freely. But again, like he's a rookie and I keep saying this about the warriors when, and Steph didn't even play less. Steph and Draymond did not play last night, but when they have everybody and they have enough of a stretch, five ish alignment with Horford or Niang or whatever, they're going to just be hard to play against because their system is hard to play against. It's just the adversity will hit at some point on the rookie thing. Where are you on the Darius a cuff experience? He's averaging 9,000 shots a game and running the show. And there's already a heated debate about whether this is empty calories, stat padding on a horrible team or whether he's actually getting a lot of points. He is averaging 26 points in six assists again, I mean 26 points on 40% shooting, not great 32% from three, 45% from two, everyone likes to say he has the green light. There's no light Darius a cuff is on the Audubon with endless miles in front of him and no speed limit. But I did see some Twitter noise about, Oh, he's. Being this he's gotten the keys. He's playing selfishly and blah, blah. I would say I am generally speaking a little a cuff skeptical, just like of him being a super high level star, a multi-time all star, like projecting as Damien Lillard or whatever. Like I, that's where I'm pumping the brakes on, on that kind of comparison. As far as what's been happening so far, I think it's a little nutty in terms of the numbers, like shooting more than basically any rookie has ever shot before. Like. It's a lot, but they're also the Kings, like I'm not going to, I'm not going to get precious about the mechanisms of Sacramento's offense and no pun intended, by the way, I mean, I mean, maybe that's the answer, you know, it's re we should really be prioritizing precious as a continued development, let's get the ball in his hands, but I just don't see like the incredible lack of alternatives here. Like, yes, you could run a more grownup balanced offense. Like if you leaned into Devon as a bonus as a hub and just continued to flow out of that, as we've seen Kings teams do in recent years, but to what end and where does that go for a player who I don't think is going to be a Sacramento King long-term. And so I just like, I can't say I love watching it. I think there are aspects in which I, I mean, certainly wonder about Darius Jacobs defense, which seems abominable, like disinterested, completely checked out, which is not what you want to see for a player at his age, but like, there just isn't enough going on. I think there are aspects in which I, I think there are aspects in which I, I think there are aspects in which I, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to see it. Sacramento positively to say, Oh my God, you couldn't possibly take this many shots. I'll tell you why I'm more on the Darius. They cuff is good line of the chart of that continuum or section of that continuum. The shot attempts are insane. Obviously the defense is not good. Obviously the passing is what to me is like, okay, this is not fake basketball that this guy's playing the pocket passes the like early hits on the roller, the corner passes. Like he's, he's pretty slick and he sees all the reads and he knows how to manipulate defenses with like hesitation moves and change of pace and knows what all of like, okay, if I do this, this guy will slide five feet over here. That guy will be open over there. He's just been given carte blanche to air on the side of shooting. But the passing like is there. So I think in a normal context, you, I agree with you. Like, I don't know. I don't know. What the ceiling is. I'm not that, that excited about it, but I, I am not dismissing. This is like, oh, this is just fake basketball. I will say, um, can you guess where DeMata Sabonis ranks on the Sacramento Kings in field goal attempts per game? Well, it's, it's below a cap a cup. It's below Zach Levine for sure. I'm going to guess there's like one or two other Kings who snuck in above him. And so I'm going to say he is, let's say he's fourth on the Kings in, in shot attempts. Ooh, so close. He is fifth. It's behind Deandre Hunter's 10 per game. Of course. And precious to chew out checking in at 10.2 field goal attempts. Anytime you can have precious to chew a shooting more than DeMata Sabonis. And by the way, only four free throws a game. So this is not a case of like his fight field goal attempts are deflated by the amount of times he's fouled in the act of shooting just unbelievable stuff from the Kings. Zach Levine is minus one Oh seven for the season. That is the worst mark in the NBA among all players. The Kings are Oh, six. And if you look at their schedule, there's like a realistic chance. They're going to be one in 19 or so. I mean, they're just absolutely hopeless and they've had a relatively easy schedule so far. It gets harder. And I know that you want to call your shots. Zach, when do you think they will get their first win of this? Let's do it. Let's bring up their schedule right now. It's I mean, I, I'm really sorry. This was intended to say something nice about Darius. A cuff at Dallas loss home against the Lakers loss home against San Antonio loss home against, what's Miami interesting could happen. I'm going to say home against Orlando on November 10th, which is their 10th game of the season. So it would make them one in nine. I believe no, they would make them one in 10. And then after that Portland, Oklahoma city Phoenix on the 18th is winnable at home. That one, I think is the one I'm just saying like two and 20 is in play. Which means a couple of things are in play. The discussion of like, Oh, is nine and 73 in danger. Now I don't think it is because they're incentivized to try like hell to win every game. They're also incentivized to try to trade their veterans. And is Doug Christie ever going to be in trouble because anonymously it was like, he's not on the hot seat. Forgive me if I kind of don't believe that Doug Christie is not going to be on the hot seat now or anytime soon, because they're hopeless and they're abysmal. And the most King's thing, ever will be if, and when they fired Doug Christie and promote Mike Woodson as the interim head coach of the Sacramento Kings. Because if there's one guy that I definitely want coaching a young up and coming team, it's Mike Woodson. Anyway, item number three, John Morant is out for a month. I don't know what's coming from Portland. They're down a lot. They're down now shaded sharp and him, and they're already kind of thin on the wing, but they're a solid team. They got a lot of point guards. Next few games are tough. Denver Phoenix, not that tough Lake. Or Spurs thunder, thunder. So we'll see any, any big thoughts on that? Only that I was kind of enjoying watch Jha try to navigate the stage of his career and trading out some of like the hard charging parts of his game for something a little more managed. It was, I honestly was, was enjoying him working through that process. And so it's a bummer in many ways, but I love seeing guys like him try to evolve on the fly. And I guess that's going to be deferred at least for now. I wrote about the early blazers on my subsection. It was fun. By the way, I want to go back to the rookie thing for a second. It's going to be a talking point soon. I mentioned four guys in pen for first team, all rookie. And then I mentioned Darius Acuff and I did not mention Braden Burries or Keaton Wagler or Kingston Flemings or Shreve in Brazil, all of whom could have a say at S at some level, Darren Peterson, not off to a flying start in Utah, the jazz off to a horrible injury riddled start themselves. He looks fine. Like fine. Yeah. I kind of thought it would be more than fine. Uh, he's really dependent on floaters and mid Rangers to a degree. I didn't expect. He's not like blowing by people. He's clearly a clever player who can shoot once he enters the gym. I'm not, I'm not worried. Like, I think he'll be good. They've got a lot of chemistry hiccups to, to iron out there. I just, I've been a little underwhelmed. Have you been whelmed, underwhelmed, overwhelmed? Uh, I think whelmed is accurate. And some of that is like, even going into, look, I'm not, I'm not going to pretend that I watch, really any college basketball, but when guys like you and I start checking in on the tape of the elite prospects, it's like you see AJ de Bonsai on film, like, oh my, like the step, the creativity, the burst that he has, the length that he has, you can see how he's going to create separation against MPA defenders with Darren Peterson. It was all, I feel like all I heard was like, oh, just wait, just wait until you see him in an NBA scheme. Just wait until you see him with NBA space. Just wait until he's out of this weird, like, uh, purgatory state that he's. That he seemed to be in during his college season. All fair. Like I'm, I'm totally down to do all those things. We're here now. And a lot of those caveats seem like they still apply in terms of the way he moves and the way he separates. And I'm just not sure he's ever going to be a dominant downhill player in basically any respect, unless he becomes a master manipulator with that shot, right? Unless you're really taking defenses and throwing them for a complete loop with your movement, with your ability to like reject screens and work away from action. Like he's going to have to be a really inventive player to be getting to the basket with any kind of consistency. And that's okay. Guys have taken that route before, but it's going to take some doing for him, I think, Speaker 3 : Or, or kind of what you're talking about is like, do you, does he need to become a player who takes like 10 threes a game, pull up threes of all stripes movement threes, because his stroke is awesome. It's been a little bit of a mess on defense too, but that's to be expected a lot of bad gambles and all that. All right. Last thing, the NBA, the Emirates NBA cup sponsored, sponsored by Sprite taco bell and pool and weed eaters has begun. I just, they're going to make my official picks. All I did was look at the groups, Rob. This is all I did. It's all the research I did. My official picks. I've already made these on, on prime Amazon prime. I'm going to make them here. Group a west. I'm picking the rockets group B west. I'm picking the grizzlies group C west. I'm picking the spurs group a west east. I'm picking Detroit group B east. I'm picking Cleveland controversial. Speaker 2 : Pick Cleveland over Nick's sixers and group C east. I'm picking the Celtics. God knows. I will not even attempt to pick the wild card teams because I don't understand enough how they are selected and people run up the score. And my 20, 26, 27 NBA Emirates cup champion is the Detroit pistons. Honestly, this is very annoying. I have five of six as the same. Also the pistons as the potential winner. It just feels like the kind of thing Detroit might actually put stock in. And honestly, rightly. So if you're a team like the pistons, maybe this is what the cup is really designed for is not just a young team on the come up that wants to try to win something immediately, but the, like, how do you stave off the feeling of, we just have to get back to April in one piece to try to prove ourselves again under playoff scrutiny. Maybe the cup is like an intermediate step on the way to do that for the pistons. Speaker 3 : So I think if they don't win, I think it's panic time for Detroit. I think you just blow the whole thing up is what we're saying. I think so. All right. What was the group you disagreed with me on the Sixers? Oh, I mean, what a start for the Sixers. I mean, I can't, the stats are underwhelming. The winds are not, they're pulling out these games and crunch time. They're winning games with that. And B they're winning games without LeBron maxi is a super duper star. They look, they look real. I mean, like if they, this was the obstacle. I said this from the beginning, I was not worried about there's only one ball problem. I thought that'll figure itself out. People will be able to figure it out. Speaker 3 : We'll be a little grumpy here and there. It'll figure itself out. The defense and more than even the defense, the, can they keep it together? Health-wise yeah. But the only obstacles to me and we're only seven games in. So the ladder is TBD, but you can't ask for a better start. Speaker 4 : No, I think they've kind of really punched it through on all the super teams stuff. You want to see, as you're saying, like the balancing between the stars, the willingness to collaborate. And honestly too, I can't, I can't think of many teams we've had of this level of, you know, of, of talent with a coach who's as like willing to throw shit at the wall as Nick nurses and seeing what some of the stuff they're doing on defense in terms of the cross matching. And like, I love seeing LeBron as basically like a functional defensive center in some of these match-ups and things like I really like what they're trying to do and what that could mean in terms of where they are by April or may. Speaker 5 : Yeah. Late in that game against the Knicks on Friday, the cup game, they ran a maxi and beat pick and roll in the middle of the floor. And LeBron was in the dunker spot and he made the classic dunker spot cut. We cut from one, one block to the other to sort of evade the help defender and confuse the help defender maxi. And I think it went maxi and beat LeBron tic-tac-toe LeBron got a layup or something out of it. It's like, if LeBron's making that cut, that's a cut that like deep cut Trevor Booker mastered back in the day. Like that's the level of player we're talking about. LeBron's doing that. No one can whine. All right, let's take a break. And we're going to talk about some role players who are playing well and not so well. Speaker 3 : This episode is brought to you by Sprite. Sprite refreshes your thirst with that crisp, cold lemon lime. And when it comes to basketball, thirst goes way beyond the court. It's the drive to make your move, find your style and leave your mark on the game. If you answer when your thirst calls Sprites for you, whether you're getting buckets, putting the fit together, or running that highlight back one more time, keep going because the game doesn't move forward by following everybody else. Never stop refreshing the game. Sprite obey your thirst. Speaker 2 : All right. Our homework for the weekend was let's give five, each of us pick five under the radar role players who are helping drive winning for their teams. And I said, no, all-stars are likely all-stars. And then five similar players who are let's be played and say, not driving winning. We're going to go just, I bet we overlapped a little bit where we didn't share each other's picks. Let's just go randomly back and forth. We'll go. Good, bad, good, bad, good bag. Cause I was like, okay, let's start on a good foot. So give me one of your role players on the good side. Speaker 0 : Well, while their schedule is favorable and before maybe reality comes calling, I would like to highlight to Monty Kamara for the Portland trailblazers. Speaker 2 : He was in my honorable mentions an absolute no brainer. Speaker 0 : He's been unreal. And I would also like to read for you. This, this is a collection of players that to Monty has been asked to guard so far this season. Speaker 2 : Sometimes you can make this list in one game. Like I watched him against Utah and he was like, Speaker 0 : Guarding Keontae George and then guarding Lowry marketing and then guarding Darren Peters is like, I guess he's just guarding everyone. Speaker 2 : Exactly. Lowery and Keontae Zach Levine and Dumanis a bonus Luca, but also tied Jerome. Sometimes also Devin Booker. Sometimes if you're wondering how is it possible that while John Moran was healthy, the blazers were not only managing, but thriving. A lot of the answer is to Monty Kamara, who is somehow leading the entire league in true shooting, but also is the single defensive piece that cross match. Speaker 2 : All across the court that makes all of those matchups somehow possible, somehow workable. And you, you could even see it in the lineup data, like Damon jaw without to Monty absolute disaster in the most predictable ways, especially on defense, all three of those guys together aces so far. And so like, I don't know, from a role player perspective, that's really all you can ask from a guy like him. Speaker 3 : No notes. He was in my honorable mentions. I just love to Monty Kamara and that contract is, is so good and such a smart move by the blazers. Speaker 2 : Um, by the way, what they got, he, he was like a throw-in in the Dame trade. Wasn't he, wasn't he like a throw-in from Phoenix and he was a throw-in in something part of it. Um, speaking of Phoenix, I will lead off the bad. Yeah. If there's a team that had some expectations and his mortgage, its future to an uncomfortable degree, given its status in the league. And it started the season with like a red alert. Oh, we just may not be good at all. Like we don't have a lot of outside shooting. Our center position is kind of a mess. It's the Phoenix suns. You could highlight any number of players. The numbers say that miles bridges is doing miles bridges things. I just watch him. And I'm like, I still don't really know why, um, his numbers are always good. And I always think he's not impacting winning at all. Defense passing, rebounding part of it, although he's an okay passer now and then Dylan Brooks, just, you know, he's a good guy. Speaker 2 : Just can't go a week without kicking someone in the nuts or just getting ejected. from games which the suns cannot afford um i will go jalen green um who is off to a very slow start and the suns are are you ready for this rob sample size alert minus 26 per 100 possessions with jalen green on the floor and plus 10 with jalen green off the floor a lot of that is both the sun's three-point shooting and the opponent's three-point shooting just sort of fluky stuff i just hate to say it as someone who is a little unreasonably high on jalen green three years ago he just hasn't really improved at all and um i thought the passing would reach average-ish levels i thought the judgment in the lane and at the rim in terms of when to finish when to kick when when when not to just throw acrobatic no chance layups at the rim would improve defense has improved a little bit and there's already chris haynes very predictably reported over the last year and a half and a half years and a half years and a half years and a half over the weekend that there's agitation that they should have a point guard running the team a novel idea uh and it's why i kept saying all preseason it wouldn't surprise me if colin gillespie is starting for jalen green in like the third or fourth week of the season i don't have anything else to say i think you correctly assessed whose fault this actually is which is to me so much of a jalen green miles bridges issue in terms of corrupting the heart and soul of what made last season's sons fun and good and effective and incorporating jalen green back full-time from injury and now miles bridges full-time after getting traded it's just really taken a toll on this team i i don't i didn't even have the heart to pick jalen green and really to come on another podcast and try to explain to people why he's bad at basketball despite the scoring like i really don't know that a player over the last five years has done less with more than jalen green in terms of what he can do athletically everything he should be and then the reality cold as it is of what he often is but but there is one name that you didn't mention and brings me no joy to say it i don't know what you're gonna say say i don't i don't mean to blame the youth come on malwatch makes more mistakes per minute than i think any player in the nba right now and it's like that's not his job right like he's not supposed to be starting he's not supposed to be here in this capacity but if we're looking around the league and saying what is like the one spot in a rotation or a starting lineup that sticks out like a sore thumb of somebody who's just like not ready to do the thing they're being asked to do and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point to do i i don't think malwatch is really equipped at all for the idea that he should be a starting center in 2026 yeah the mark williams injury didn't get enough attention because he's no great shakes he's fine he's a below average starting center in the nba with some hops and potential and whatever but he's but he's like not far from average and that's a valuable player malwatch simply isn't ready also a gadaro who i'd like anyone who he's injured and has been injured for a few games now just still free throw foe bick uh which saps his offensive game and they're just uh he's only played two two games uh of their four um i liked the extension for him fine but yeah those guys aren't ready i thought you were actually going to say devin booker um that's a whole different conversation uh who has been okay like he had 143 point games averaging 22 and 5 on 50 shooting 31 from three it's been a while since devin booker was like an above average three-point shooter i understand he takes difficult looks because he's a star i mean i flagged that contract the moment it happened and we were in vegas and i was like there's just no avoiding that it's not going to be a good contract it's just like emphatically not going to be a good contract and i hate to say it because i love devin booker but there's no it's like the donovan mitchell thing i donovan mitchell's younger and has been a little better than devin booker in the last couple years i think maybe a little better yeah but anyway okay i can't let you pick all the good ones and bad ones so we're going to go back and forth you can pick a you know what pick whoever you want pick well well if you picked a bad i feel like i should get one bad player off of my list and i'm i'm going to take like look what has to be the number one overall pick in terms of role players who are kind of quietly sinking their teams clay thompson has been like a huge red flag like neon signs saying please attack this man he is leading his lead leading his team in threes and it doesn't even remotely match to me at this point look i'm i'm going to be an inveterate clay defender it has to matter that he's leading the team in threes a little bit does it okay look at it on balance and you see the starting lineup the best chance the heat haver of competing a lineup that has four incredibly credible defensive players two guys who have like been defensive player of the year caliber davion mitchell is like as dogged and determined and playing above his size as you could ask of any guard that collection of five players with clay is the worst defensive high usage lineup in the entire nba right now and it's like that cannot be the case and i think it's it's a it's a two-pronged problem clay has been very bad guarding really any position he's being asked to guard and they've tried like they've tried moving him all over the place he gets pulled into action and this is where it becomes an issue where he's so obviously bad and the lineup with those other four guys makes it so clear where you're supposed to attack that there's just like no reprieve for him like he is the number one item in every scouting report of every opponent that miami plays specifically because it's just like found money anytime you can pull him into any action at all i really don't allow a lot of clay slander on this show i'm sorry i love clay thompson everything you i'm now i might need a minute after after that i will say at least he's making threes that's his first job and he's doing it tim hardy way junior shooting 24 on threes he could be a candidate for this list i guess nicole lovitz just isn't going to happen another another thing i was like wildly wrong on when he signed that four-year 60 million dollars central is like that's fine he's like an interesting all-around player that's what you pay young interesting all-around players it's a problem that he basically like only plays in half the games and then the other half suppose like i don't see my heat player on this list though was andrew wiggins who i think it's more of a function of he just feels lost in the yannis universe 11 points a game a career low 16 usage rate he has attempted four free throws the entire season and just looks like he has no idea when and where to assert himself in this new environment i'm going to give that time that's sort of like any huge adjustment like this is going to have those kinds of casualties i have another player very much like this i'm on my list of disappointing role players so far but he was on my list okay pick a you know pick a good one have some fun okay please uh let's go let's do a joint recognition for matisse theibel jake laravia zyre williams for the los angeles lakers and i say that specifically because look the best way that the lakers can kind of take the pressure off luca is by generating a ton of live ball turnovers and guess what this team is generating a fuck ton of live ball turnovers and these guys are living in the passing lanes they're creating all kinds of problems and you can credit walker kessler for some of that in terms of being the backstop behind them that a lot of people are not going to be allowing them to gamble but the preemption and the anticipation from these guys i would say laravia especially who's just been all over the place and super active and super engaged and is now filling in for them as a starter i've just been really impressed with the juice that the lakers have been able to get out of their defense when as we all said coming in this is not an elite group of defensive personnel it's luca donchich with a great shot blocker behind him and they have to figure out a lot and so far they've been figuring out an awful lot yeah i mean i i remember writing before the season if one if they go one for two with fiebel and zyre williams in terms of becoming a good role player who makes a requisite number of threes the defense was going to be there for both of them you'd accept that as a win they're two for two fiebel is shooting like 49 on threes and has been attacking closeouts with a little bit more verve than i expected uh and on those threes too like he'll let him rip like no dip right off the catch no hesitation kinds of shots like really impressive stuff from a guy who was not always that kind of shooter although he kind of was in portland last season he was and by the way like luca and reeves are trusting him where if if you help off him in the strong side corner they're just hitting them early and that those kind of passes i think must make him feel good like all right they're not like after one miss they're not going to stop passing me the ball laravia is three for three and i think the biggest thing that mamu who's brought to the table for them has actually been his ability to keep possessions moving yeah as an off the dribble guy he's only shooting 33 on threes but he just keeps the machine moving lucas starts it or reeves starts it and it's not always going to lead to a lucas shot or a lucas assist someone's got to keep it moving and he's been doing that all of those guys were on my list okay let's talk about your hometown team your former hometown team uh can you guess which maverick i have on my uh role player driving winning to an unexpected degree list i think there's a lot of answers but i kind of oh rob mahoney you're sharp as a tack daniel gafford it could be naji marshall always happy again one of the rules of the zach low show always happy to have naji marshall around he's always helping out naji marshall at the party if you always had a house party and naji marshall was there he'd be cleaning up during the party he'd be taking things in putting things in the dishwasher oh the fire pit's dying down let me throw a log in he's just all over the place doing helpful stuff uh but gafford Look, without Derek Lively, this is a pretty thin position. for them. It's him. And Merez Johnson jr. Has been fine as a rookie and then small ball and they just can't afford a bad Gafford season. And they're getting maybe the best one he's ever had a career high offensive rebounding rate. And he's a great offensive rebounder career high two and a half assists a game, not much, but for a guy you don't think of as a candy passer, a lot of those offensive rebounds, he's kicking out to the right place. He's hitting cutters here and there, and he's allowing only 50% shooting at the rim. We all know the main story there is that Cooper flag is off to a holy shit kind of start a 27, a game hitting every mid range shot. He puts up looking very comfortable easing into those jumpers, which is going to make him a much more effective against switches in both directions, like able to shoot over small guys and able to sort of step back and get space if he can't blow by the big guys. And sometimes he will, cause he'll hesitate and blow by them when they take that hesitation bait. But I just, you know, Speaker 0 : Love Daniel Gafford season so far, a couple other Mavs notes. Do you see that rockets game met rockets Mavs on Friday? I did. I don't know what your solution is. I don't even care what it is, Rob. I don't have a solution myself. I just fouling up three. We just got to get it out of the game. It's ruining all these games at the end. You can go Elam ending. You can go extra penalties, two shots in the ball. It's just so many great games. What a landmark win for the Mavs to upend the undefeated rockets. And it's just, you get to the end of the game. It was like, oh, it's going to be this. And they did it twice. And I understand the strategy. I respect the strategy. Dusty maze. I like what I've seen from dusty may early on the hallmark of a great zone defense in the NBA is if I kind of can't tell sometimes if it's all zone partial man, what it is. And they've hit that. And just, just a question for you is Zachary research a better than Lou Dort. Speaker 3 : Well, let's, let's table some of that discussion because our friend, Lou will be coming up later in this podcast. I just want to raise it. It's worth asking. And he, he's had some, some genuinely impressive moments. I'm not going to pretend that all of the reasons she stuff so far in Dallas has been a, but there is, there is just enough to keep me on the hook and interested, which I didn't anticipate coming into this. Speaker 4 : Picked up his option over the weekend. That's why I brought it up. Yeah. But I mean, Cooper has been nuts that the, and one specifically to really like put that game away against Houston. I, I'm just in awe of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of Houston, I, I'm just in awe of what he's able to do already as a, as a formative jump shooter, as a guy who's still figuring out like what his go-to moves are, what his spots are, but he's so fluid. He's so natural. He's awesome on defense right now. And this is a huge reason why Daniel Gafford has been such a difference maker at the rim too, is like, he has so much length to play off of so many good South defenders to play off of Gafford to me is like a perfect additive role player. Like you give him a team with any kind of reasonable ball handling and passing, he's going to sing. You give him a team where a driver's attack and like attract enough attention and he can really feast on the offensive glass. Like he's just going to build and build and build on whatever your best players do. And now that the Mavs have an improved Cooper flag and Kyrie back and just a better veteran team altogether, it looks amazing. Yeah. They're a big rangy, like, wow. And sometimes they'll have no Kyrie on the floor, no sasser. Who's been okay. I have a soft spot for him. Maybe even no max Christie. And it's just like five huge guys with a lot of versatility and ball handling. I'm like, it's like, it's kind of scary to play against. They don't even have Santhi Aldama. We haven't been able to see the France, Spain research a Aldama connection yet. Okay. Pick you. You get full carte blanche here. Good or bad. Let's go look, let's keep it in Texas and go to another role player. Jabari Smith, Jr. Of the Houston rockets. I will say that uniformly Jabari is the guy who has gotten the least credit for the rockets being good and being unique and being really tough to play against over the last couple of years. Like he is the defender who can cross match in ways that allows him to lock and trail wings to guard opposing bigs to do all the stuff you don't want Kevin Durant at his age to do. And also the stuff that lets you be really inventive in where you put a man Thompson on the floor. Like Jabari is a counterbalancing piece to all of that. He's doing all that stuff. He's just also doing the novel thing of what if he made every single three that he took and the jump from pretty good stretch four or however you think about Jabari Smith, Jr. To just an absolute killer from range has meant the world for Houston's half court offense. We have our first overlapping selection in Jabari Smith, Jr. I think his defense has been sensational, including at the rim that now the field goal numbers at the rim don't really show it. Teams are shooting okay there when he's there, but he's there a lot and he's big and he's an eager impediment. Speaker 3 : The off the dribble thing. It just may not happen. Like I get nervous whenever he runs a pick and roll, but when he starts with an advantage, when he attacks a closeout or whatever, that part of his off the dribble game has, has come forward enough for Houston's offense to just keep it moving. Initiating makes me a little nervous, but he's fine. Good pick. I'm going to pick a, I mean, we just have to talk about the Grizzlies and like any team that's off to a six and oh, start, you could dominate Isaiah Stewart. Who's shooting a million percent on threes. You can nominate Jalen Wells who just quietly fills every gap on both ends of the floor and his shot. Speaker 4 : Well himself can nominate cam Spencer. You can nominate their whole bench. You mentioned their depth. One of the interesting things that the Grizzlies are doing, and you've seen a couple of coaches dabble in this is they will very often have their starting lineup on the floor to start the second and fourth quarters, which is very unusual and puts their starter. Speaker 5 : Against an opposing bench unit. And they just want to eat in those minutes. I mean, Jerome's been unbelievable. He was on my pod last year, last week. Edie has not really done like all that much to start the season. I'm going to go. You could go GG Jackson. Who's playing like a bat out of hell off the bench and shooting pretty well from twos. I know on threes, not twos. Love what GG is doing right now. Super aggressive on both ends of the floor into the ball on defense, doing what he needs to do to survive as a bench rotation player in the NBA. I just think Cedric coward is flying under the radar as just, you know, you're two first team, all rookie, probably like a lot of us had ambitions. All right. Could he like sniff 18, 20 points a game? He's at 13 right now. I just love everything he does on the floor. He's averaging almost nine rebounds a game and three is nine rebounds from his position is huge. Speaker 1 : And offensively he is, I mean, like stacking strength on strength for them, like all over the place on the offensive blast. Offensive glass. He's a second, third, fourth option, curling around screens, attacking advantages off the dribble. He can score from any level. When he gets the ball, he's on selfish. He plays hard on defense across multiple positions. I just, I, and I think there is an extra scoring gear in there. I don't know if this team, if, and when they'll need it with a lot of the options that they have when cam Boozer starts making more shots. And I couldn't love that guy anymore. I just want to shout out Cedric coward. I think he's just a really good basketball player. Speaker 2 : And I think he's going to, really pan out to be just like a game changing role guy in the league. And I'm with you. There was that moment of like, Oh, is this a star? Like, is this a guy who you're going to want to want for go to offense? And I think that maybe puts a little too much pressure on some of the mechanics of the way he creates his playmaking, like all this stuff that's just like really hard to do at the highest possible levels as a wing. But if you, if you put those aside, all those hopes and dreams and aspirations, and you say instead, can you be what Andrew Wiggins was to the team? Speaker 2 : the championship warriors for, for a team like this or a team similarly constructed where it's like deep and has options. And you are kind of like the break glass in case of emergency half court guy on a lot of these sets and possessions. Like that's so to his skillset. And I think take some of the edge off of the things that he can't do in a way that just feels, it feels so freeing for his game to have a team like this. Well, in the ascension of Jerome and just how complete Boozer is as a player, teams are going to hide their weakest defenders on either jail and Wells or Cedric Howard or both. And they are both skilled enough that the Grizzlies will bring them into the pick and roll, have them screen for a tie Jerome or screen off the ball for cam Boozer and know that if the defense rotates in a way that leaves them open, both of them are capable of flashing into middle spot in spots in the middle of the floor and like making the right play in a lot of different senses, shoot threes. If you leave, but whatever, they're both great. All right. So we have named three of my, uh, good side and only two of my bad side. So I'm going to give you the next pick. We'll see if we overlap again. I'll also pick one on the bad side. I think we need to at least check in with paid Watson. Oh boy. I didn't have him on my list at all. I mean, the Cavs are foreign too. So as far as like, who are the role players who are just destroying their teams, Cleveland is doing fine and they're winning. I would argue they are winning to this point, largely in spite of Peyton Watson, who, uh, has been tasked with these like big time defensive assignments. And I think mostly struggled. He's looked really dynamic in some games, but hasn't held down that spot. He's not hitting shots. He's turning the ball over more than he ever has before. Their line, like their best lineups haven't really worked with him as a part of them. The only ones that have really functioned well are the small ball lineups against other benches where he's a four and is able to like really flex his athleticism. But otherwise it's just like, he feels like this foreign element into this very well, oiled machine. And I want to be very clear that I think the Cavs need a lot of that. Like they need to change. They need to budge out of their ways. They need creativity and unexpected elements and they need some of the pop that a guy like Peyton Watson can provide. and this is a very long-term process working him into this team the first steps of that process have been like a little ugly offensively maybe even more so than i ever thought they would be i you know the numbers say you're right i've watched a lot of the cabs i think i've seen four of their six games i i haven't been really worried yet and i i don't know why that is because the numbers say i should be worried he's not making shots i guess i just i anticipated some clunkiness out of the gate yeah i've seen enough like okay self-created mid-ranger at the end of the shot clock when donovan's on the bench kind of stuff to to at least um to at least not worry so much about it but i i it's not a bad i had by the way among my nominees was also a mario jasonia uh speaking of lineups that have functioned um without uh without peyton watson um okay good side but you know what actually let's take a quick break and then we'll do rapid fire through our remaining i'm pro football hall of famer brian dawkins and i lived for a long time with something i did not know the name of major depressive disorder i carried sadness and anger because i thought i could handle it alone but i couldn't now i want to make sure others know that that support is out there if you're experiencing similar symptoms talk to a healthcare professional visit mddallies.com to watch my story paid partnership with johnson and prescribed cap lida luma teperone i needed more from my antidepressant so my doctor added cap lida luma teperone proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone building on my progress without starting over cap lida is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only individual results may vary in clinical trials weight gain was not common elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke cap lida is not approved for dementia related psychosis call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes behaviors or suicidal thoughts right away antidepressants may increase these risks report fever confusion stiff muscles which may be life-threatening or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent high cholesterol and weight gain may occur as can high blood sugar which may be fatal monitoring is recommended common side effects are sleepiness dizziness nausea dry mouth feeling tired and diarrhea these aren't all the side effects ask your doctor about cap lida learn more at cap lida.com or call 888-252-4824 this episode is brought to you by state farm every football fan is different some won't wash their lucky mustard stained jersey until the season's over some insist they can't sit down during third downs and some pick their favorite team because i don't know red look nice just like football fandom nobody's life is exactly the same that's 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prizes and details and picks all right i'm actually going to empty the clip on my disappointing role players list because i think they're all not not uh they're all obvious and in a couple of cases not very relevant to what i will say that is the broader picture of the nba i'm sorry to say that thrust into a starting role because of injuries that sion james is just absolutely killing the charlotte hornets yeah um he's averaging 3.7 points a game and he's 5 of 33 on threes he's a tank he can defend like all hell he does not belong at a starting five and the hornets have struggled horribly to score the basketball um with damian lillard looking damian lillard ish in portland uh the two point shots haven't fallen yet but he's still a dangerous set from three i actually think he's defending and rebounding pretty hard by his standards it does make me do the occasional check-in on the miles turner colo where combo in milwaukee sure um miles turner is averaging seven points a game as the starting center colo where's averaging more 13 uh and he's doing the thing that he's doing where he puts up enticing numbers and yet i i'm not sure how much of it really matters because of what he sometimes gives back in defense judgment effort i think there's a very good player in there i don't know when they will be harnessed but i mean miles turner i just can't remember a single thing he has done on the milwaukee bucks since they made this ridiculous stretch and sign transaction that is killing them even more than paying 16 million dollars a year to gary trent to do absolutely nothing but boy did we want him on our team like we've just checked the analytics here are some comps that justify this signing oh wait he's not playing at all and the league is still investigating um so those two uh the center combination in milwaukee yeah and then i i go do you want to say do you want to add something before i give you my last one or no just on milwaukee like the only reason i've hesitated on on their guys is they've been in so many games and i've been tuned when i've tuned in to watch them where it's like how are they in the game and i've been tuned in to watch them where it's like how are they in the game this like weirdly competitive games against clearly better and more talented teams and sometimes they'll be like miles turner yes is not scoring but like actually is a presence enough at the rim to help some of those lineups he still is like those things are clearly coming through on some level to prevent the bucks from being outright disaster and merely quite bad by the way in my c on james notes the uh hot take obviously premature and goofy question that i had for you was is it possible that everybody lost the lamello ball trade okay just throwing it out there um and my last uh hint not great thing i'm not really i i guess it's not that uh it was not hard to predict that this guy would get lost among the new look chicago bulls josh giddy turning into triple single uh guy eight and a six five and a half rebounds shooting poorly from all over the floor the defense is always going to be what it is in a world where the team is about buzellus and caleb wilson um i'm not really sure what his job is and i thought it would actually be a little easier to figure out like push the pace initiate the offense feed those guys a little bit make enough catch and shoot threes he's actually been okay on those the last couple of years he feels much like wiggins before when i talked about him just sort of like lost in a new world that doesn't fit his skill set yeah and he's he's such a particular kind of talent too where i mean we we've talked around the josh giddy thing for so long but the accommodations you have to make stylistically in terms of lineups in terms of the players you put around him like when josh giddy is on the floor by and large it has to be a version of the josh giddy show unless he's hitting those threes at a really really high level and so i would like to see a version of him that feels more malleable that feels like it could fit with those other guys in some context but this felt inevitable to me this feels like the inevitable timeline with josh giddy probably wherever he's going to go like some marginal improvement over the last couple years i think defensively i think in his ability to get to the basket for stretches but then it'll kind of go up in smoke so that's you're right we did have a stretch like maybe early last season where and early in his first season with the bulls for most of it actually where he was like upping his his just ferocity going at the basket and his foul drawing was up and his shots at the room were up and it does feel like i kind of like haven't seen that um in a bit all right empty out your uh role players not helping list um i was unsure about how to slice it up for the atlanta hawks and so i'm gonna say there's like a joint responsibility between cj mccollum anyaka kongu and lou dort weirdly enough those three players and i say that because like there's a bunch of overlapping problems with atlanta one the hawks are still somewhat reliant on cj for offense in a way that makes them so small and so slight on the perimeter defensively that they're asking dyson daniels to take on assignments that normally dyson daniels would not have to do a kongu in that same lineup being a good but not great defender who's also very undersized does not have the ability to make up for any of that on the back line and then lou dort comes in off the bench and they're basically like lou dort i guess you're gonna guard like power forwards full time they're back up for like in part because of where lou is in his career and in part because of what this team needs all of which is to say this is supposed to be a good defensive team and i just watched them get rocked by the pelicans and the heat in ways that felt so predictable and so inevitable and i don't know what this like with the players they have like how you're supposed to really fix it by the way speaking of the pelicans couple pelican stakes number one turns out herb jones is good and maybe you should play him yep who could have seen that coming even as your backup point guard if you need to like he can do everything turns out deandre jordan is very old and maybe you shouldn't play him in crunch time or games can't believe it took any time to realize that number three if you haven't seen the last two games of jeremiah fears i would implore you to go just watch the highlights because they've been two of the best games he's played in the nba and i'm officially like a little excited about the jeremy i've always been high on him and i'm now excited number four i really would like derrick queen to just start and i might just be going for entertainment purposes carlo makovich has been fine as the sort of spot starter while eves misi has been injured the one thing i'll say about queen the defensive limitations are very real the defensive limitations with him and zion together are fatal i get it i i'm not thinking long term what i'm thinking is the moment derrick queen checks into a game the entire game feels different the entire new orleans offense functions in a way that it does not function when he's not in the game and i also he's doesn't coming off the bench he doesn't get enough playing time with the guys who fit his style the best especially trey murphy the third who has a roving shooter handoff threat whatever is tailor made to play with a guy like queen and they just don't play together enough those are my pelican stakes uh on the hawks i i looked i was thinking of trying to pick a hawk for this and i was actually surprised to see that cj mccollum is averaging 14 points a game which is not a ton i realize but when i've watched them he has felt not involved enough offensively to justify his role on the team and part of that is very natural right jalen johnson's going to take more of a role as he as he grows into a great player uh nikhil alexander walker is legit like borderline fringy back-end all-star candidate kind of player yep um anyaka kongu is going to grow his game so is dyson daniels on and on and it's just felt notable to me that cj who was their crunch time hub last year in the playoffs and like really changed their team and their flow and that's why they started him over dort this year it just hasn't felt kind of involved to the degree that i think he might have to be for this to be worth it and maybe it's just passing him by yeah and look clearly the long-term plan is kingston fleming's is going to come into some prominent role with this team and has a lot more to offer defensively could be a different kind of not just like attacker of the rim but i think a floor general in a way that is just like not native for cj in his game and like that's just the reality of the differences between them but kingston fleming's is also not ready for all that just yet like we've seen him really pop and then just recede to the background and that's when he's not elbowing guys in the head so between the two of them there's like a need for a specific kind of point guard play and neither one is here nor there and i think you're really seeing it with the hawks in terms of their inability to be the kind of defensive team that they're really supposed to be and so i think kingston fleming's is really going to be the kind of guy that's going to prop them up while they figure all that other stuff out do you have anyone else on your naughty list as we enter the holiday season by the way my daughter has been demanding holiday music since like september 1st it's driving it's officially like driving me insane is it just generalized put on the christmas playlist or is there she wants mariah she has a curated spotify playlist uh of holiday songs it's endless i've heard uh i and i actually like this one i was not aware of it before i had a christmas i will say i will stand for that one uh but i've heard it a lot of times that's the thing you might stand for it twice in the season and as soon as you get round three it's it's really starting are you are you out of the naughty list have you done everybody the only other one i have and i feel like genuinely bad to include this guy on the list because it's not his fault but the degree to which the orlando magic rely on jaylen sugs has become like kind of a problem and he has a shorter term injury than paulo's obviously but i'm just watching these games and as somebody who has been super invested in the magic over the last couple years and waiting for them to hit franz and paulo and sugs have never been able to be healthy on the same timeline and sugs in particular like we just have to back up and look and say he's been healthy for one of his first five years in the league and i love the guile he plays with i love his spirit i love his defense when he played before he got hurt i thought the offense was just like wildly off kilter for him even by his standards and then if he can't be on the floor regularly to the point where you just have to reconcile that you know jace richardson's your starting point guard i just think it's like a structural problem to to rely on him to the degree that orlando does yeah they are um they are thin even when healthy um and right now they are not healthy and they are just under talented they're just not talented enough to beat good teams yeah especially if franz wagner is going to shoot 19 on threes and it looks every bit to 19 he's a wonderful all-around player uh does a lot of things well on both ends of the floor it's just the three-point shot has looked busted for the last four consecutive years and it's off to a busted start um to this year i have two more guys on my happy list you want to hear them please we could not do this episode without mentioning b-ball paul in detroit who is just winning and t-rex jump shotting his way in to 14 points and seven rebounds a game on 63 shooting he's shooting 71 on threes a smarter person would say five of seven to indicate the sample size i want to say 71 because that's what it is it sounds more cool that paul were you shooting 71 on threes he could switch a little bit on defense i mean he's an artful scorer on the inside which we knew he's just getting a real chance to sing now with jalen duran hurt and isaiah stewart in memphis and again like a neat team that's off to a great start i could have highlighted for sure duncan robinson who's been fantastic for them he's on my list as well but like i'm wearing b-ball paul b-ball paul for one i just i just want to take a moment and recognize that i think it's beautiful that the legions of sixers shit posters who were waiting for doc rivers to play b-ball paul were right and we saw that honestly when he played there but like the player he's turned into he's turned out to be just like such a perfect fit for that team i was at the knicks pistons game last tuesday the knicks were winless at that point it became their first win of the season and honestly 18 minutes into the game i think paul reed had 16 points and i was like i said my brain said the sentence i don't think the knicks are gonna stop paul reed like i think paul reed's just gonna win this game and send the knicks into an existential crisis and then he did slow down but well yeah the only answers for paul reed are within paul reed like he will eventually kind of like fly off the track a little bit in a way that you know is predictable but look he's got a lot working for him i don't know how you take away the weird like t-rex runners that he throws up there so among my other nominees and i'm gonna miss some so forgive me brandon pajemski d'anthony melton luca garza rj barrett i mentioned his onya someone whose name i can't read because my handwriting is so bad uh jared allen who's too good for this but has been fantastic on both ends of the floor kishan george we mentioned tybel emmanuel quickly jacoby walter bj edgecomb marcus smart johan baron j christian brown davion mitchell aaron wiggins speaking of hawks my final pick will be we've now i'm going to call this segment let's say something nice about the brooklyn nets this week's let's say something nice about the brooklyn nets sponsored by nobody and nothing by you by a local co-op like let's let's get somebody some business uh if i were i'm just washed i used to have my pet bars in brooklyn how do you remember what they are anymore it's been so long uh i just have liked the nolan triori experience for the last few games including last night in indiana where the nets notched their first win of the season big time jaguar joman is is injured the other rest of the flatbush five don't really play uh and triori is fast as all hell and he's starting to learn how to harness it um he knows people are going to go under screens against him he has no pull-up threes this year he is shooting um 39 from three so he's been very good on catching shoots but boy oh boy a re-screen that's a little lower on the floor he's going to beat you to the other side a fake to the screen and a reject it if you fall for it he's gone and he's at the rim you switch on him and you're a little flat-footed and a little late or a little low on the floor he's blowing right by you and the passing he's thrown some snazzy little passes like zippers across the corner to the weak side corner on time and on target little pocket passes i don't know what he is i i don't know how all of this is going to fit together i just know that two weeks into what is going to be a very depressing season for the nets and it's going to be a very depressing season for the nets and it's going to be a very depressing season for the nets and it's going to be a very depressing season for the nets and it's going to be a very depressing season for the nets and it's going to be a very depressing season for the i got something in nolan triori and i've 10 10 and a half points a game three assists decent shooting i got something i don't know what it is by the way joman still is his uh two-point rate is even lower than it was last year he still takes only threes basically but i'm just and that that is the conclusion of let's say something nice about the brooklyn that's sponsored by i don't i don't know somebody somebody i thought it was quite nice and and deserved i would say because for a guy who is a good player and he's a good player and he's a good player and he's a good player and he's a good player and he's a good player i think clearly was a functional passer and i like understood the reads understood like the natural progression of plays but just had no means to make defenders respect him as a scorer literally at all last season the idea that he's finding any angles in addition to the threes going like you can see how that starts to build for a guy like trey or if he's able to get to those spots consistently attack three screens like just finding your angles in the way that young players tend to do as they mature into their careers like there's enough basketball know-how there for something to really pop and make sense i don't know that he's ever going to be a starting point guard but like he can be a contributor he can be a factor honorable mention from the nets for my guy cheney johnson who just is a nice little fifth starter glue guy right now i don't really even know what position he plays i don't know what position most players on the nets play they're playing these gargantuan lineups where i think michael porter jr is technically like the two guard and some of them but cheney johnson is something and plays super hard and guards everybody and he's done a little trick on my brain where i think it's because of calbert cheney if the old heads remember calbert cheney where my brain thinks that cheney johnson is left-handed and is surprised every time he shoots right-handed because calbert cheney was left-handed i'm like oh cheney johnson's right-handed um by the way i don't know if you saw the kelly uber a technical foul in that game last night i actually did not what happened uh he did the danny ange from the sideline uh he threw a towel in the air midway through someone on the net shooting a free throw and the refs and the refs were like oh my god he's gonna be like oh he's on the bench he's not like in the line of sight he threw a towel up in the air the refs saw it i would say there was a five and a half minute meeting to assess what they should do and these i'm sorry refs to call you out nothing should take longer than a minute these jump balls where they take 90 seconds to set everybody up and like your toes are over here nope stop just stop jostling naughty boys just throw the fucking ball up in the air okay this was like i should have timed it it was like four and a half minutes the next announcers were literally saying on the broadcast because they're up up in the second level sarah kusak's like i gotta tell you we have no idea what's going on the rest still reviewing it they started talking about candy and their favorite candies and they assessed a technical foul on kelly uber for throwing a stupid towel in the air i say pulling the danny age do you remember danny age doing that from his sports side seat under the basket in the playoffs throwing the towel in the air it's a signature move how could any of us forget the second most famous danny age related incident behind robert ory throwing a towel in his face when he was the coach of the sons do you have any anyone left on your list i have one guy we have not mentioned but i want to say one thing about duncan robinson before we get to that uh who i think is worthy in this in this conversation as well and we were so focused coming into this season in the offseason about the changes the pistons had made and maybe not enough about how the continuity could build for a guy like duncan with a team like that that understands where to find him how to how to tap i think he's taken like a full step forward this season as far as the way he's integrated into that group but i also think he's held up pretty well defensively and been pretty active there but specifically the idea that like a star thompson plays very little without duncan robinson on the floor these days and they've turned into a really nice combination of all the possessions that start to go awry when they kick to a star and it's like a record scratch kind of moment for the pistons offense he's become so attuned to where duncan is on the floor that it's like where is duncan robinson in movement and how can we leverage this kind of moment of chaos for the pistons benefit i think their their pairing has worked really well and a lot of that is just like duncan's you know the gravity that he has on the floor but also the willingness to break free of it sometimes and i totally agree with you about his defense i think this is the best he's ever played and a lot of teams have gone after him and have not been as successful as they have in the past very quickly who's your last guy uh this is gonna seem a little crazy for a guy averaging six all-world pope being a real nba player for a team that just needs real nba players who can do their job respectably has been a lifeline for the sixers and was not a guarantee like it had been a while since kcp had been both healthy and on a real team at the same time um yeah he's been fine he and simon's off the bench have been fine phylon hasn't looked totally out of place coming into these games dean wade is healthy uh and had 10 assists on friday night somehow uh it's a good call out uh rob mahoney where can we see you uh we got group chat coming up monday thursday what else we got prestige tv slow horses is over i know that what are we pivoting to we got gilded age back or we're circling maybe a black doves we're trying to figure out what's on the horizon but i mean a lot of end of year stuff kind of angling up for prestige as well so it should be a good time can you put some public pressure on uh ben stiller and everybody else to get severance season three out faster i mean what like i i can't wait i don't have any shows like this i need said like i i know it's a it's a precious piece of art and i respect it because i just i forgot what happened already at the end of season two i think ben stiller and everyone making severance has shown that they cannot be publicly shamed on this like they're just going to take six years to make a season of tv and we're going to have to wait patiently for it and we can only hope that it's worth it at the end of those six years you know i also wonder if if shows that take a long time like this and i'm being facetious uh i love severance and ben stiller is awesome um maybe this is all a scheme to get everyone to re-watch the prior season before the new season comes out i don't know if the streamers are making any extra cash out of that uh but anyway that's where you can see rob mahoney all right that's it for today's edition of the zach lowe show thanks to the great rob mahoney thanks as always to mike billy and jonathan on production thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the zach lowe show we will see you on thursday as usual 21 or over and president select states for kansas in affiliation with kansas star casino or 18 and over and present in dc or wyoming gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 7 support in massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text hope ny in new york louisiana call 1-877-770-7867 ulcerative colitis and crohn's disease symptoms don't pause for the moments that matter that's why understanding your treatment options matters discover what's possible with trimphia guselka map trimphia is a 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