Uncovering and Recovering from Purity Culture - Joshua Harris

[Music] If you're trying to figure out how to navigate the tricky tight-rope parenting, while you have questions, doubts, and wondering about your spiritual journey, our podcast is for you. It doesn't matter if your kids are small, middle, or bigs. We'll explore what and how we're deconstructing from churchy entity, harmful belief systems, and diving deep into the ways we can work this out in parenthood. We're also going to work through ideas for reconstructing a space for our families to thrive under new systems of love and freedom. We can't wait to bring you some hope that you're not alone and that it's really okay even good to explore all the possibilities that may have felt closed off in the past. Our podcast is going to offer you grace and space to be exactly where you are and who you are. We're really glad you're here and we're excited for today's episode. Listen in! Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. That's a poem by Rumi that we took from Josh Harris's Instagram and he's our guest today. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Deconstructing Mama's podcast. We're talking with Josh Harris today. You might know him as the author of I Kissed Eating Goodbye from the 90s, but Josh, we know you are so much more than that and so we're so excited to talk with you today and to just hear more about your journey. So thank you so much for being on. Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation. I really, I feel very honored to to be on the show. This is going to be good. I know it's going to be good. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what your current day looks like, what your family looks like, and then what something perhaps quirky about you? That makes your heart come alive. Well, it's a little bit of a crazy time in my life because I'm moving from Vancouver, BC. I live in Canada now. I'm born in the United States, but I now live in Canada and I'm moving to the interior of British Columbia, a place called Kelona, which is like the wine country of British Columbia. So vineyards and orchards and all these lakes and so on, but moving is always chaotic. So my my life right now is a bit upended. I got remarried six months ago. I actually haven't really talked about this publicly very much, but I got remarried to an incredible woman named Kelly Lamb. So we are starting our life together and just having a really, really amazing time. I've got grown kids, 24, 22 and 18 almost 19. The older two live in Brooklyn doing all kinds of fun stuff there and the youngest is studying nursing. So I'm an empty nester and I brought Kelly. She marries me and is instantly an empty nester. She's really annoyed about that. But we just have a lot of fun supporting them and then for work, I help people with their messaging and help them with their words to get their ideas out of the world. So you went there for seminaries. That's your original reason why you went to Canada? Yeah, exactly. I came up to Canada. I've been a pastor for a long time. So I had my whole life planned out. I was going to be a pastor and die in the pulpit kind of a thing. And life had other plans for me. It kind of smacked me upside the head and humbled me in a lot of different ways. And going to seminary in Vancouver was this moment of like, I need to like figure things out. I need to study. I need to I need to be in settings beyond the little bubble that I've been in to figure things out. And that was really a place where a lot of things unraveled for me. My vocation, my polling as a pastor, my marriage, my kind of public life as an author, all these things that had I defined myself by. Tell the part. It was really hard. It can still be hard. And so I had a big reset in my life. Yeah, I see in Lewis calls those terrible gifts. It's a good way to describe it. You know, and that has sat with me in the time where I had like my massive kind of falling apart. But I wouldn't want to go back to the person I was before that. You know, and so it is a huge gift, but absolutely terrible. You know, absolutely horrific and terrible. So yes, we don't want to take away from that. Yeah. I can relate. Liz, I don't think I did a good job answering your question about the quirky thing. Oh, yeah, quirky. Yeah. That's like my favorite. I just love to hear people's quirky. Yeah, like that's a really tough one. Well, this is not really quirky, but a lot of people don't know that I'm half Japanese. Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. And I really identify with that side of my heritage, my mom with Japanese, but nobody, nobody knows that. They don't look at me and assume that I'm there's, you know, Asian heritage. And so I get really like excited around Asian people and ask them about their ethnicity and they're always like a little offended at that at first until they find out like, no, I'm one of you. Like I'm happy. I love that. It's kind of a fun thing. Just like like a straight white guy. That's really, really cool. So do you feel like you have you were you always interested in that part of your heritage? Do you feel like you've sort of become more interested? Oh, well, I think growing up, you know, my dad is just like a, you know, his his family was from Alabama. So I've got this like red neck, you know, side of my life and then my Japanese heritage. So I love to joke like I like my sushi deep fried. You know, that's like my. But I think just growing up, you know, Hi-Oh, the Japanese side was so much more like interesting and exciting and special. So I think as a kid, I was drawn to that, you know, that side of the family and that heritage. Yeah, that's really cool. Well, how would you describe maybe your religious upbringing? Yeah. God was at the center of my life, you know, from the day that I was I was born. I was born practically into the church. You know, we lived across the street from first Baptist church in San Avile, Ohio. My dad was going to Bible college. He planted a church in Texas when I was three. So my family like faith was not kind of just a weekend activity. It was always very central to everything that we did. So I've got little pictures of me like preaching sermons when I was two years old and you know, that was that was sort of just in the air. And then my parents became really involved in the homeschool movement, which was another like kind of radical expression of faith. You know, that was back when homeschooling was basically kind of illegal. You really weren't supposed to be doing it. And it was this real desire on my parents' part to say, we want our son, our children to be set apart and different. We don't want the world to be influencing them so much so that we'll actually pull them out of all of these systems, pull them out of public schools, not even even Christian schools weren't quite holy enough. And so that was a big part of my kind of experience as well. It was not just your part of God's people and separate, but you are even extra separate. You're you know, called to lead the next generation. That's why you're being homeschooled. And my dad went on to become a really at the time influential leader in the homeschool movement. So he was traveling around doing workshops on homeschooling. So faith was really at the center. And then in ways that kind of played with my head, I was also like the illustration and all the messages. So like a pastor's kid, you know, you know, you know, you're being watched. I felt that on a kind of a national scale with I was the example exhibit A of homeschooling and work. Here's my son. Look at he's running his own business. Look at him. He's doing this. That kind of a thing. And I internalized a lot of that. And I think it shaped a lot of the ways that I thought about myself. So interesting that you said because I probably was in high school when you're in elementary school. And there was a family in our church and they definitely followed your dad and all of that homeschooling stuff. It was just interesting to see how far reaching all of that was. And for you to be at the center of all of that, it's not lost on me. How hard that is for a kid to be on the national stage like that because it's not just, hey, my local church is paying attention. It's like everybody in the homeschooling world who are the extra special Christians who are the extra set apart now are watching you. I wouldn't want any kid to have to be on that kind of stage. That's just hard. I'm so honored not to do that because I literally did have friends. I was a missionary kid but then was home in high school in New Jersey. And I was like, they're a little weird. They're a little loud. They're a little too Christian. Even for the missionaries. Wow. Okay. They're definitely in hierarchies of weirdness. We just thought you were kind of weird. Yeah. But because all of us missionary kids went to public school when we were in the United States because we were supposed to be a light. Exactly. Very different mindset. Yeah. You were going out. We were going in. It's so true. And I feel like in some ways, and this might just be where I'm located, I feel like in some ways I'm seeing almost a return to that. In terms of homeschooling. Yeah. I was homeschooled for a few years when I was younger and it didn't go Oh well, my mom and I did not. That was not a good situation for our relationship and so I ended up back in school. But yeah, I'm noting that a lot of people in the Christian community are like going back to this idea of like homeschool as a way to control and kind of filter what your children are sort of receiving about the world instead of really just like equipping them to be a part of the world. And I say there was no judgment because right, you have kids and you just, I mean, everything feels terrifying in some ways. And you're like, how do we just like make sure that everybody's okay, right? We do it out of fear. I think a lot of times. But yeah, I've really been noting that kind of. Interesting. And I don't know exactly what that's about. But well, for me, it's it's just a reminder that there's nothing new under the sun and we follow predictable patterns. And there's always going to be a new boy band every 10 years. And there's always going to be a new kind of wave of whether it's purity culture or kind of like this kind of inward isolated, insulated form of Christianity. And so you just see a lot of those same patterns get repeated over and over. Yeah. Yeah. So true. So here's the question of questions. And we only know that it applies to today. So we're not going to hold you there because it's always evolving our faith. So if you were to answer the question in your own space today, where would you say you find yourself now on your spiritual journey? Yeah. Thanks for the way that you frame that. That's like such a beautiful, safe way to ask that question. I think that I am in a place of coming to peace with the reality that the Christian faith is just in my DNA. It's like a country of origin. It's my first language. It's just always going to be part of who I am. And I think I used to feel like I had to shed and reject and like throw off every element of that because I didn't believe every single thing the same way that I used to. And I think now I'm coming to this place of like, wait a minute, why should it have to be that way? And why can't I just embrace this massive part of my story, the way that I am oriented to the world, even though I'm still sifting through and sorting through what parts of that are meaningful, what parts I keep, how I express that. So I feel like more kind of fluid and less pinned down many other times in my life when I was like a super defined sign off on every single doctrinal point to prove who I was, to then deconstructing and feeling the need to be like, I'm not a Christian anymore, you know, because I'm not living that and believing that. So I have to let go all of it. And now to be at a place of saying like, I do feel very much in process. I don't believe this in the same ways that I used to, but I don't feel the need to identify or not identify in particular ways. I'm really just kind of flowing with things. So that's a very, that's a very squishy answer, but that's probably the closest thing to reality for me. No, no, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think a lot of people, I mean, I feel like a lot of people that come on say something like kind of similar, like we don't really know, but we're sort of okay with not knowing, like we just kind of have our hands sort of open and we're just, we're free finally to sort of explore the world around us and what, and what that means and what that looks like. And I also feel like I just want one thing that I really appreciate about you is the beautiful like redemptive kind of story that you have. Having written into this book, right, that sort of led all these people kind of one direction and then shifting to saying like actually, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, right. And there's, it takes so much bravery to be that person because you were brave enough, I think you've also led so many people into healing. And Esther and I, we talk about this a lot, just in terms of even our parenting, it's never too late to say I was wrong or I'm sorry. And being able to do that is almost more healing than just having none of the pain to begin with. Wow. And so I think that the way that you are, you know, living your life in sort of this just open space of like I am human being and I've evolved, right? I think has been really healing for a lot of people and I really, really respect that about you. Thank you so much. I love the way that you put that I was just going to say that that statement that you made about being able to say you were wrong and processed that and heal through that is actually more meaningful or powerful than never having gotten anything wrong. And I just, I think that's so incredible because I lived so much of my life in fear of getting things wrong. And I still see that in, you know, people that I know and love, especially I think when you're parenting young kids, you know, like so much that can motivate people is I just need to not get things wrong. And it ends up leading to its own like a different set of problems and different pain. And when we can let go of that and I keep learning this lesson, there's I think just so much more joy and freedom in the in the process of being human. Yes. Yes. So much so. Yeah, I think about that idea of my own kids who I started out. I mean, I would have had that original book and had it on my shelf and been up and preaching it to my kids if they were old enough. And I just think my own kids have said that watching the transformation in me has given them permission to be human. Wow. And to change and grow. And I don't know if it's Gabor Matej. He's like somebody wonderful calls it rupture and repair. And that actually rupture as long when there's repair is better than if there was never rupture. As the relationships are stronger, healthier, more durable, than if there wasn't because it is two humans coming together. Yeah. In their wound in this vulnerability authenticity. Yeah. And that we aren't we are. And if we deny that part of ourselves, that's perfectionism and comes with a whole host of things like you said. And then who's living up to that? Yeah. Then that just sends you into hiding. That's so true. If nobody can live up to that. So I love that. Oh, yeah. All right. Here's our next question. You've gone through a pretty public shift. Poor guy. You've been like public your whole life. You probably do want to move to the center of Canada. I'm drinking wine. I live in my life with my bride. Leave me alone, people. But since you are a fairly public person and have to do this public shift, which I know is bumpy for you. How you view relationships and faith. Like how has your perspective on dating and marriage evolved since that original release? Of I kiss dating a buy. Obviously you've done the thing of all things you've gotten the worst. Now you're going to be married. I mean, of all things. And I'm like a big like, yay, second marriage. So how is that personal shift for you? Or I should say, how is your maybe spiritual shift informed your personal shift? Yeah. Well, you know, the shift that took place in relationship to a way that I viewed my books was sort of like the initial process of rethinking and questioning ways that I had lived and things that I had taught. So my deconstruction, you know, really came in phases, which I think is true of a lot of people. You know, it doesn't like all just happen in this really clean, perfect, simultaneous way. There's usually, you know, like a sweater. There's like a thread and you're like, wait a minute, when you start pulling on it. And that was a big one for me. I came to Vancouver and I became a student here. I'd been a pastor for 17 years. And in a role and an environment where leaders really weren't questioned, or at least we didn't take it very well. And there was just a lot of protecting, protecting the doctrine, protecting the leadership, protecting the viewpoints that we had. And my books were a part of that. And so when I laid down that role, became a student, was listening to others' teach and instruct and sitting alongside other students, men and women who were just my peers and friends. I was able to hear critique of the ideas that I'd put out in the world in a different way. I was like open to it in a new way. And I began to see real patterns with the stories of how my book had impacted people. And so that was the beginning of change for me of going, wow, like these aren't just mean people on the internet who don't love Jesus enough and they're critiquing me. These are like really genuine people. They really love Jesus. And they're saying, yeah, your book really hurt me in different ways. And then I expanded that conversation. And ultimately that process, I was still very much identifying as a Christian and I was processing my book. And I came to a place of saying, you know what, there's some real problems with my book. It's teaching things that are not in scripture. It's emphasizing things that the Bible doesn't command. It's basically what the Pharisees and the religious leaders did where they added all these man-made rules onto people. They put burdens on people's backs that they weren't willing to carry. And so I had a like a theological context in which I apologized for and denounced my own books and unpublished them. So that was that was a huge part of it. And so you know there was a whole you know when I think about the the changes that I've been through I think a lot of people just assume that's all just grouped together like you know he he got divorced you know whatever and now he doesn't like agree with this book like it was a process for me of saying like even from a Christian viewpoint I think that these books may be well intentioned but out of fear taught things about sex that actually added things to scripture emphasize things that made people preoccupied and afraid of their sexuality made rules that made it hard for them to actually make informed decisions about marriage or even led to rushed marriages because everyone's so afraid of any kind of sexual compromise all the all the problems that people have identified you know with purity culture I was contributing to a lot of that and so my my thinking really changed in that front and then on a personal front with my marriage ending you know there's just a my marriage was a product of of that same purity culture environment my ex-wife has written a book about her experience with that and how much even worse it was from a female perspective being a pastor's wife that you know the ways in which she felt like she didn't have a voice and the ways in which that shape our decision to get married so getting divorced was it felt at the time I know this isn't true but it felt at the time like at the unforgivable sin like I felt like I was doing the most selfish thing imaginable because it was like it's not the kind of sin that you first of all I taught that it was sin for years you know so I couldn't backtrack on that and then it's not the kind of sin that you're like you know what I shouldn't have done that I drank too much last night I repent and you just move on you're like you have to follow through with divorce there's a lot of you know follow through with the decision so you know I had to I had to process my own sense of failure my own sense of shame around that but obviously it really like highlighted for a lot of people like whoa this guy who taught these things it did not work for him obviously you know that that kind of a thing which was was humbling but also true so you know behind the scenes for me in you know being single for a number of years and a lot of my friends are kind of in that same like Mary Devorist now single people I talk to they're figuring all these different things out it's it's messy it's complicated dating is you know even though I don't agree with I guess they didn't go by dating can really suck for a lot of people it's like it's not it's not the greatest thing there's a reason why that book sold so well so it's been really interesting to from a completely different viewpoint now be able to say there are real problems with purity culture they're real problems with this kind of fear based approach but then making a decision to get married and say you know I think there's something beautiful about joining your life with someone and building something with someone and being committed to someone and so I do I do feel like I say to Kelly like I do feel like it's an expression of grace like I feel so undeserving to have this new opportunity and relationship but it's there's a lot of unlearning and learning what's taking place yeah I wonder like how different it feels for you I mean for so many reasons why years have passed but going from being first married right a long time ago yeah and maybe feeling the burden of these sort of like rules right or he's sort of like roles that you have to like and now being married all these years later after like deconstructing all these things and raising kids and you know having all these life experiences does it feel in some ways much more freeing yeah I mean I do I do think it it feels very different there was just so much that was fear based again in my life fear around being the the perfect example as a young pastor like I remember when my my ex-wife and I were engaged and I was doing a conference and she traveled with me to this conference it was a why so there's a reason why she was wanting to go to this particular one and we went there and you know staying in separate hotel rooms basically shaperone the whole time like it's you know we're being very careful because of all the perception issues we never kissed before we got married all those kinds of things but I got deathly sick and got this massive migraine on this trip and called my mentor pastor out of the blue like this kind of emergency phone call because I was trying to figure out if I needed to cancel the conference and he gets this call and answers it and I get on the phone and I say I've got this terrible headache I don't know if I should cancel the conference and he says oh thank God I you know I thought you were calling to say you guys had like had sex or something but that it's a funny story but like that was the mindset like yeah you know if you mess this up you're not only disqualifying yourself you are undermining the message of your book you are you know there is we had this platform there's all this that we had to fulfill and that's just a terrible place to start in a relationship you know and so it's just amazing now to be in a relationship where again a lot more maturity a lot more experience where we're processing and talking about things that I never would have imagined in the past and where there's not that same level of fear and control then that freedom is really incredible well I mean as you're talking I'm like I feel like I'm reliving like all of 2008 and like 2009 like all of that just not really even knowing like who I was and what I wanted and what I even believed in it was just all this fear-based pressure to like be this very specific way and just how damaging it can be for us on like a really internal level I'm really appreciating a sneak peek behind the scenes only in that so many people like I'm getting teary it can relate to that external pressure to look a certain way or be a certain way because you're protecting God or you're protecting your parents or your reputation or Christianity or who knows your eternity right like for eternity you're yes you're protecting like you're all that pressure that's put on us that we act in such a way that is so incongruent with who we are and so you know so not-fring and so in-sleeving talk about freedom and Christ it's like a joke it's like slavery and and the other thing I just want to point out to you that I really appreciate is I even think about your book I custating to buy your curiosity to kind of push back at that system of like everybody days kisses but I wonder if that curiosity of being like let's do it differently it wasn't such a bad thing in that it brought you where you are today you're always maybe asking that question of hmm maybe we can do it differently and your openness to hear criticism I don't even know what to say if I was like a world-renowned published author and anybody criticized me I might be just like hey wait a minute be quiet use it now you know and you're willing this to perhaps think a little differently maybe is why you wrote the first book and they may be why you were allowed to kind of continue to evolve and change what a gift I mean your curiosity to question isn't lost on me or how beautiful that that process is that you didn't stop in that journey you continued that journey and you're willing this to hear hard stuff where I know in my little small world people have said what you did when you were an evangelical really hurt me that's huge I mean that is that's huge well thanks for expressing that and encouraging me I hadn't thought of it in that way I mean I think that the thing that I always want to say in these kind of conversations is there's so much of my story in the way that unfolded that was not this heroic like you know what I think I need to rethink things here and I'm gonna question my you know beliefs because it's harm people it's like my life had to crash in different ways in order for me to get to that place and it wasn't you know it wasn't just always this noble thing it was it was born out of just being you know kind of beaten down by my own decision so you know like our church facing all this turmoil and just the normal church splits and leaders fighting and all those kinds of things and then a lawsuit about sexual abuse reporting sexual abuse like one of the great sadness of my life is in that process realizing oh I was participated as a leader in not handling one of the situations well we should have called the police and said we tried to you know counsel and and lead through a process and that kind of sense of failure of like I wanted to be a pastor to help people and I'm doing the [BLANK_AUDIO] of that. That was part of this sense of like, what else has, have I gotten wrong? You know? So, I really appreciate how encouraging you both are being. And I just like, I say that not to like, try to, I guess I just want to emphasize how messy the process has been, how many moments have been like really scary for me. You know, like even the process of unpublishing my book along the way, there were so many moments where I was like, trying to figure out how to hold on to that. Like, maybe we can just publish a new version with like some additions or, you know, because I'm wanting the fame and the accolade still. I'm wanting the money from the royalty checks. I'm, you know what I mean? That's just like so difficult and so hard. And for anybody that's walking through some kind of, you know, deconstruction process, I just think it's so helpful to hear like the reality. Behind anybody's story, like it's, it's usually not really sexy. You're like, you're going back and forth, you're just like, it's a real mess in so many different ways, but I'm grateful for the mess. It feels a little bit like a coony, you know, like the transformation and like a coony. You're just like going along with the caterpillar. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you just get slapped. It's true. Disintegrating in there. We also don't take it lightly. I think here in this space of the grief, like even just the loss of your book, the loss of your identity, the loss of who the world thought you were, and then who the world blamed you. I mean, all those things, the utter shattering of so many things and the, you know, the sheer grief associated with loss there of community identity. And right. That's so true. We all want to just get to the other side. We all want to be the butterfly. You know, a lot of us have been through something similar in our deconstruction journey, right? Like you start to think differently. You're not really sure. You kind of like, go back a little bit and then you like, wow, it was so much easier back then when I could just pretend that the formula worked or you know, it's like there's a lot of like going back and forth and back and forth and trying to figure it out. And so probably a lot of us can relate to like just that entire journey of like, I don't have a clue, but I think and yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's where I really appreciate your whole focus of, you know, from the mother perspective of doing that personally and then all of the ways that that affects children that you're parenting and the people around you. Like that was a very distinct conversation I had with my oldest daughter, where she said to me at one point, like, you know, dad, this is a time in my life where I'm like trying to figure out who I am and it really is a lot harder when you and mom are also trying to figure that out. And it's like, I was just, you know, my heart went out to her like, yeah, that is tough. Like usually your parents are a little bit more anchored. And we were just like all over the place trying to figure out what was up and what was down. Yeah, how has that shift taken place even? I'm sure when your kids were a little you were thinking one way, I'm in the same boat. And then they had to watch kind of the cocoon, the crash and burn, the coming out, the other side, the life kind of falling apart, community lost, my kids lost their community, all those things. Yeah. How is that process for you? And maybe some glimmers of hope? I don't know if you have them. For those people who like me started out in one way and are finding themselves in a different position now. Yeah. Well, for me, a lot of that shifting of beliefs that was taking place was happening when my kids were older. They were in high school, which is a totally different thing when you're raising much younger kids and just needing to provide them structures and frameworks for how to think about the world and so on. My kids were experiencing this radically new environment of going from being in our church as the pastor's kids to moving to a new country, a new city and the anonymity that came with that and the kind of the new start that that was had positives. Like they're, you know, we were all just kind of like rewriting the story together. But then some of my struggle and guilt even as a dad was seeing how hard that was. Like, I pulled them out of everything they know and I pulled them out of their identities as being the pastor's kids and you know, that kind of a thing. And I'm so grateful for the ways that they weathered that and it was hard and there was loneliness and there was, you know, pain and struggle along the way. And they can attest to that. They can tell those stories and it was hard to watch at times, but they grew through that in ways and they had a freedom to question and grow that I'm so grateful they had because back in the old context, you know, the old me would have been so much more like, oh, you can't do this because of how it reflects on me or you can't struggle with this or that kind of thing because parenting was so tied to being qualified to be, you know, the leader and impressing people and so on. So there was always this mix of like sadness that I'd taken them out of this beautiful community and this sense of security and then happiness that they were in this uncharted land basically being able to grow and develop without all of that restriction and control. So that was an interesting thing and I think that seeing the way that they have grown and been so compassionate towards me and their mom, so loving and have become these incredibly resilient, just bright, vivacious, you know, humans is really the thing that I'm most proud of as a person, you know, just that I got to participate in seeing them launched in life, something that I'm just so, so grateful for and I know that that is like everyone's situation is so different. I have a good friend who she got divorced and her kids, they believed everything that she taught them all those years and evangelical church and they just judge the hell out of their mom, you know, like I know that like people have different experiences where they're on the receiving end of all the like the judgment and rule based approach to life and so on that they taught their kids and their break in relationships, those kinds of things happen and you can't control those things and so I don't I feel very fortunate but I don't think it's tied to any like particular thing I did or some formula, I just feel really like grateful for the ways that things have unfolded and the relationship and friendship I have with my kids. Yeah, I love that. I love that for you. I mean I think that that's fantastic when a great redemption story that is, you know, you're like, oh wow, look at this. I was love no matter what. Yeah, you know, in the end of the day, I really love no matter what as a person, as a dad, so that's and you're still loved, that's that's really cool. I'm just real, I'm curious because you know, you said your kids were in high school and so right, like this like peak sexual experience time, right? So like how did that sort of shift the way that you approached your kids specifically surrounding like sex and sexuality and purity culture and all of this stuff that you had believed and stood on and held on to like so, so tightly. Like how did that shift? Yeah, well it was crazy timing. I mean essentially when they were in high school, I was going through this process of re-evaluating my book in a very public way, so they were seeing that in essence kind of had this front row seat to see me rethinking all of those types of rules and restrictions and because of the kind of relationship that I had with them, I mean each kid is so different. That's the other thing that I've learned. Like you try, you do one thing with one child, you think, oh that was great. And then you realize, no, it had nothing to do with your parenting. I just have a great personality. So I'm very humble when it comes to talking about, you know, parenting and so on, but in essence, I was deconstructing the whole purity culture mindset. There are probably ways that I look back where, you know, a little bit more structure and parental engagement, not engagement, but just like boundary drawing kind of may have benefited them in different ways. So I think it's so easy to swing all over the place as a parent and be reacting to. I was too restrictive. I think for me, it was a very difficult moment because I was so uncertain of what was healthy parenting and what was really toxic, you know, types of control-based relationship. I made a lot of mistakes along the way, but I really emphasized relationship with them. I emphasize trying to have open communication and that led to moments where they were, you know, communicating things times where I was like, whoa, whoa, I don't think I actually want to know all this. I don't, I don't want to hear these things as a dad, but they have all been, yeah, I think very, very open and real about that process. And our emphasis was more, hey, there are healthy ways to do this. It's really about being respectful of others. It's about prioritizing your enjoyment and you don't have to do anything, you know, there shouldn't be a pressure in the reverse way. And we're not going to pressure you in these old ways that we used to practice. Yeah, it's so interesting that you're saying this because this morning we got a message in our DMs that said, my teenage daughter has asked me to go on the pill in the context of having a boyfriend. Thankfully, I'm in a supportive group that has literally been a parent support group for those of us who grew up in purity culture but still this feels so scary and hard. That's what she said. She said it's not just like, oh quick go in the field. Yeah, you're having sex with your boyfriend. Hooray. You know, it's the untangling stuff that lives in our bodies. It's not just a quick like fix and I really appreciate you saying the emphasis on relationship. And then also like, can you not? Like, can you not tell me that? Like, what trouble is going to pill by yourself? Well, you know that it's so funny because I do think that and I just say this like, purity culture obviously has so many really negative things about it. But it doesn't mean that we should just be completely thoughtless, flippant and not think deeply about sexuality and the meaning of the impact of sex and both the joy and the pleasure of sex as well as, you know, the ways in which it can misdirect us and, you know, especially for, you know, kids that are developing all those kinds of things. And so I just think that it's really, I guess what I'm what I'm trying to say is this, purity culture and all the rules and restrictions is one form of laziness that just says don't talk about something, don't do it. Stop thinking about sex, you know, and you don't have to do the hard work of saying what is pleasurable to me? What's meaningful to me? What's the meaning of sex? You know, that's hard work to think through those things and to have convictions and believe something based on where you are and who you are and your uniqueness and being courageous enough to say I'm gay or I want to have sex in this way or I don't want to have sex. All of that takes tremendous courage and thought. So purity culture is one form of laziness but there's another form of laziness which is just hey, no rules, anything goes, you know, none of it matters because that's not actually engaging with the deep questions and issues and thoughtfulness. And so I guess I'm coming to this place personally when I talk to parents and so on of just like make sure you're doing the hard work. Like don't be lazy and pass up opportunities to say well let's talk like I'm so excited that you're being, you know, thoughtful about being on the pill. Obviously you're excited about sex. Let's have some really uncomfortable conversations around what's going to be pleasurable there and do you know your body and you know, like that takes work as a parent. It takes work to talk about hey, I actually think we can be sex positive but also honest about the deep, you know, significance of sex and how it affects relationships and all those kinds of things. And so just do the good work I guess is my encouragement. Yeah, that's so good. I really like that you put it that way that it's more about like the work that we're doing as parents to help our children develop into human beings that can actually like have these conversations and make these decisions for themselves and maybe it might not be the best decision, but then they can think it through and they can talk to us about it. And these sort of dynamic people in my husband and I, we always joke we both grew up in like purity culture and we always joke that like now we would much rather our kids have sex at 16 and know how to honor their bodies and be in a relationship where they are loved and honored then be absent right until they're married and have not a clue how to have a healthy relationship and enter into an abusive situation or whatever. I mean, we've kind of gone to somewhere that I never thought that I would go, but I think that and it's scary. I think like you said Esther, you know, it's really it's scary to think about like letting go of some of those ways of thinking because control sometimes feels the safest or like fear-based control feels the safest. Yeah. Yeah, I have a question. I think I hear what you're saying too. There is the whole sexual thing is super complicated and it does have quite a big impact on kids as they're growing up and it is that hard work. It's not black and white thinking the other way. Right. It's not like, okay, everything goes. It's what about agency? What if somebody grows up and it's like, I don't want to have sex with them. Right. They're allowed to save it. That's exactly right. You know, it's not even like I want to push my kids to do any of it or not do any of it. It's kind of like, where is your agency? What about respect? What about how do they treat you? What about other parts? Are you feeling pressured? All of that stuff. What do you actually want? And like that is really hard work for them instead of going along with the crowd because everybody's having sex. And then they feel like they're losing their own identity because they're just doing what everybody else is doing on the other side. It is that this messy complicated middle. Is that what I was in that what you're saying? Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly what I'm talking about. I think you I think you put it I think you put it so well. Just making sure I was I get so scared to become what I left. Okay, no, it's all great. Yeah, just run a book. You know, because like in the name of freedom, but really I'm actually enslaved to the other other thing. I'm enslaved to promise you the whatever it is. I don't even like using that word. Well, it's an interesting thing too because I do think we all as parents have this there's a real temptation to kind of like live vicariously through our kids in a lot of different directions. There can be the fear of you know, like in the church setting, it's like I don't want people to think poorly of me. So I'm going to force my kids to live a certain way. It's not even about loving them. It's about your own people that are respecting you or thinking a certain way about you. That has nothing to do with your kids. But then you can you can do that in other ways where you're like, my upbringing was so restrictive. I'm going to push them to go out there and do something and you're not necessarily thinking of them as individuals and what they're facing. And so you're just assuming like, well, this because this happened to me, you're not going to. So I just think it's so important to really like help them know themselves, understand where they're at and then and then be really honest about what's motivating you like what fear is motivating you. Because if it's the fear of I don't want them to have you know, do what I did. That's not even actually the best starting place. You know, instead it's just like I love them. I want them to be thriving. And the way that they thrive. Yeah, they're probably going to buck against a lot of the stuff that I'm you know, really excited about. But I'm going to I want to give them tools to build a life that might look really shocking to me like I think it's hilarious like in the Gen Z world, the secular culture. A lot of these kids and younger, whatever gen alpha I can't keep track of all the generations names. But they're almost starting to like revert back to a kind of weird conservative like less, you know, sexually active, almost like I kiss dating a bite ish. Kind of mindset because they're like reacting to their environment where dating is like so not even dating but just hooking up and sex and so on. So I'm just like recognizing like, you know, we each have our own environment that we grow up in different pressures. And it's hilarious to see the way things, you know, get repeated. And it's also just so funny like to to recognize that we we often end up, you know, as someone has said, we like live our unlive lives through our kids, which is such a disservice. And letting go of that and letting them live and make the mistakes they're going to make while they feel loved and supported and equipped, I think is as always my goal. We joke that Liz that one of Liz's kids is going to grow up to be an evangelical pastor. 100%. How else can they rebel? No, it's totally true. And I want to be and I want to be supportive of that, right? Like I want to be like, okay, baby. All right. I mean, it's really it's so funny. As you were talking, I was just thinking about how this it it constantly comes back to in these like high control environments. There is no sense of self. And that's really like what it is. No matter like what direction the control is happening, right? Like there's no sense of self and when there's no sense of self, you can't make any kind of informed decision about who you want to be or what you want to do. I mean, I'm thinking about myself in particular in college going from being like abstinence is everything to abstinence is nothing. And either of those scenarios, did I have any sense of who I was? So goodness. Wow. Wow. Both sides. And so I just think that's huge and that's what so many of us have been missing and missed our entire lives was like a sense of self and like who am I and what do I want and what is my soul respond to? And yeah, those things are so important if we can offer our children ways to experience that for themselves and kind of like usher them into that, then I feel like that's like half the battle. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So good. All right. Last question before we ask you what you're doing and it is about your kids. If you were sitting with them at a table and you knew they were going to listen to you, that's the caveat. And you could maybe impart just one thing that you would want them to take with them on their life journey is kind of a core value of yours. What would it be and maybe why? Such a powerful question. I think when I think about those three who are just so precious to to me, I think informed by my own experience, I'd want them to just not be afraid of getting a few things wrong along the way. It's part of the journey and living a life trying to avoid those moments. It just takes away from the joy of this amazing magical life that we've been given. I don't want them to live their lives in reaction to me. I think about that, actually, a lot lives with my kids like if they find spiritual life and joy in some expression of faith that is different than mine. I just want to celebrate that and rejoice with them. I don't want them to be so afraid of I don't want to make the mistakes dad made. That would be my encouragement. Don't be afraid of making some mistakes and falling down a few times. That's beautiful. Thank you. So you said currently you're kind of moving and you're helping people. Can you tell people where they could maybe find you? I know you have an Instagram, but what's going on with Josh Harris? Yeah. I am in a season where I'm really trying to tap back into a lot of passions and gifts that I have left dormant because I had the mindset that they were kind of like they only belong to the church because that's where I used them. So things like speaking and getting up and sharing ideas with people and writing and even I call it coaching, but it's very like that role of pastoring, which I just view is like somebody coming alongside you and saying, "Hey, it's tough being human, how you don't." Those are gifts that I felt were given to me in the context of the church and then I kind of had to leave there when I stepped away from a lot of those structures and institutions. So I think I'm kind of in this season where I'm going and picking those up and saying, "Wait a minute." The world still needs this stuff and I can still use these gifts and they're not exclusive property of church world and it might only be a couple people and I know there are people out there who don't necessarily appreciate me showing up in different ways, but that's the courage side for me of like, these are the things that are meaningful to me. I want to live a meaningful life. I want to use these abilities and ways that I hope help people. So I don't know exactly what all that looks like, but that's kind of the new season that I'm in. And then just if I've got a website called, that's just my name, JoshHarris.com. There's not much on there, but it links to different places where I'm doing stuff. So. - I love that you're reclaiming yourself there. The word that came to mind was reclamation. Like yes. - I love that. Thanks for saying that. - Yes, yes. I'm an eight on the any of your, I'm like this weird cheerleader person, but I do, I'm very much cheering for you. - Oh, that's amazing. - And rooting for you and so grateful for your openness and vulnerability with us. - Yeah, thank you so much. - This is big. - Thank you for letting me be a part of this conversation and just for being so, so encouraging. - Well, that's it for this episode of the Deconstructing Mamas podcast. We love that you tuned in and hope that this gave you a little bit of grace and space for your soul to breathe. - Don't forget to catch up on any of our episodes that you missed and remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook at DeconstructingMamas. - That's where you'll find all the information that you need about the podcast as well as on our website, DeconstructingMamas.com. 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