Ultimate Guide to Creator Brand Deals: Monetization, Affiliate, and Pitfalls to Avoid with AppSumo Head of Marketing, Nick Christensen

Welcome to uploading, the podcast where we take you behind the wheel with the world's best creators, marketers and professionals who have cracked the code on how to profit through content. You'll learn the ins and outs of content strategy, creation, production, distribution, growth, platforms, tools and more. If you haven't already, be sure to join CastBagic, the all-in-one content workspace for professionals. We'll be sending out tips from our shows in our weekly newsletter, and we've also got a Slack community of over a thousand creators, so make sure to drop in and say hello. And now, get ready for the show. All right, we're here at uploading, and today we have Nick, so Nick, as you know, and as everyone that's tuning in, knows, brain deals can be an absolute pain in the butt. And for most creators, this is their number one source of income. And so at the same time, that is why it also can be a huge pain in the butt, the process of reaching out to brands, negotiating deals, and then creating long-term relationships with brands can be a task of itself. And so this is why today we're here with Nick Christensen, head of marketing at AppSumo, an eight-figure company founded by Noah Kagan. And so Nick is an expert in influencer, affiliate, paid marketing, and really everything along those lines with community, and everything else. So today we're going to be talking about how to get brand deals, how to make good money from them, the biggest mistakes creators make when negotiating with a brand, and what brands look for it. So Nick, take it away, expand on that intro a little bit more that I nail it. What else are you up to on your daily in at AppSumo? You nailed it, man. You nailed it. Thank you guys so much for having me on. And yeah, I've been in AppSumo for almost seven years now, started like six or seventh employee and I have over a hundred now, but it's been amazing right, and I've learned a lot, especially from Noah and the rest of the network in Austin, where we're based, and it's been amazing to help and connect with people like you guys, coming on to AppSumo, other SaaS founders, freelancers, consultants, I have a couple of businesses on the side that I run, a consulting agency, and also an in-office, teap whitening clinic that I've purchased and have been running for a couple of years and able to, yeah, use what I know about marketing for small businesses. So that's really my passion is helping people that may not have a huge team or a huge budget grow, find customers, and do it in an efficient way. So I'm really excited to chat more about the other side of the coin of creators. And we do a lot of this at AppSumo as well, we have an eight figure affiliate and influencer program that I started about five years ago, started with really just referral marketing, expanded to affiliate, traditional affiliate marketing, and now kind of the final stage is what we call ambassador or influencer marketing, right? So recruiting people that have a little bit of a following, not huge followings. I would say in the 50 to 100k subs followers, depending on the channel, we're really focusing on YouTube creators, long form YouTube creators in the software space, and this is something I'm really, really excited about because there are more creators than there ever have been, but I think the quality of the content can be there, but there's also a lot of low quality content out there. So I think it's from the brand side partnering with people that fit your content, niche content, themes, but also from the creator side, which I'm excited to go into a little bit more. How do you find the brands? There seems to be a lot of competition now of creators, a lot more creators than there are brands, so you're kind of competing against everybody else. So you've got some tips, maybe some ideas that could help some people on on this front, but yeah, that's a little bit about what I'm doing personal and then I'd up soon. Nick, I'd love to go a little deeper there, specifically on creators. Like you mentioned, there's more creators than ever, and connecting with brands is not the easiest thing. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, right? You're at the brand level. How do you identify who's a good creator, who's someone you want to work with when there's so many people creating content? Yeah, it's a great question, and I think about this from the brand side. And I'm going to go into that first, but then from the creator side, I'm going to touch on as well. If I was a creator, just starting out, what would I do to monetize my channel or following? And you know, you can wait for brands to come knocking. We do it. We do a lot of outreach, cold outreach on YouTube, just creating our own lists based on the content of the channel. So like I said, a lot of software reviews, tech reviews, people that are creating long form content around things within our space, which are normally in the marketing sales productivity tools space. We also use our internal network of people that are using AppSumo tools. That's a big one. We recruit from our customer base. We recruit from Noah's network. You know, he has an awesome network of creators. So those warm intros really help, especially if we're trying to go up and sponsor some larger channels. And that's, I feel like that's all kind of basic stuff. Everybody is doing this. They may not have the access to, you know, the network that I mentioned, but this is all stuff that you should be doing as a brand. But from the creator perspective, like, do you just wait around for somebody to, to come and sponsor your channel, especially if you only have maybe 10, 20,000 subs or followers, it's like, you know, that's not what I would do. And I can just speak from the most successful interactions that I've had with creators from my side and, and kind of how I react when creators reach out to me directly, which almost never happens. And I think this is insane of why creators are not doing this more. If you're starting out, and you have, let's say, 5, 10,000 subs on your channel, I would look at your content and build a list of brands that that you love or use, and this could be software companies, it could be, you know, ecom, whatever it is, you love and you use and then also your audience would love build a list of like 50 of those brands, right? Create a quick loom video on how you would promote their product. This has happened to me maybe three or four times, very, very few times. They email me and they're like, hey, I love absumo. I just use product X, whatever. Here's how I would promote it. Would you be down for some kind of partnership? Every single time, I'm like, yes, this is awesome, like, let's do it. And then I think from there, it's like, okay, like, what do I, what do I offer? Like, how do I, how do I structure a deal with this brand? I think the most successful ones at first are either performance based at the beginning were a mix of fee plus performance. So you can say, hey, for the first three months, I'm going to promote this on your affiliate network. And I want some terms, let's say 30% of every sale or 100% of every new buyer, right? And then after that, I want a fee. If this works, let's say $2,000 a month plus the commissions, 10 times out of 10, you're going to get a yes from brands, especially if the first three months are more of like a test and then invest where there's no skin off their back, they'll like do it, right? You create a couple videos, you know, you get some commissions, it does well. And then boom, like you're in this, this relationship with a brand that you love that, you know, that hopefully will be, you know, a long term fruitful partnership. But I think it all starts from what you are using or what you love that you think you could genuinely promote on your channel for a long period of time. I think the best partnerships are ones that are more of a partnership. It is a long term commitment, not a one off video. If you're saying, like, hey, I want to, you know, make a quick buck from this brand and you may be able to do that, but it's going to, it's going to be a lot of work to do this and reach out to all these brands to try to do this over and over again versus having three to four that you love. They love you. And you're creating videos every single month or post whatever it is on what channel. And you're developing a deeper relationship with them. I think this is really valuable information because, well, first of all, there's two ways as a creator that you can get a sponsorship deal. One is either inbound and the other one is outbound. And a lot of creators, you know, they kind of wait too long to start the outbound process thinking that their content is just going to be so good that the deals are going to be flowing to them or they might have this internal belief that they think that because they're doing outbound that they might seem desperate and so like on the inbound deals, you get the negotiation leverage, but, you know, being on the side of actually activating creators, I wish more creators would reach out like we're actively looking for these creators. And so you'd be surprised at how many responses you can get. And if you craft this outreach correctly, you, there's no such thing as seeming desperate. You are providing value to them, which is exposing them to your audience. And as long as you come out professionally and stand out, then you'll be able to still keep your negotiating power and your rates, et cetera. And so I'm curious, Nick, on that front, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen creators do on their outreach that they shouldn't do when they should consider before doing their first bread? Yeah, it's a good question. I think the biggest mistake is like they just come in too hot, right? You know, you, you just got to 10k subs, you know, you're, you're the king of YouTube and it's like, yo, I'm coming in with a $15,000 per month, like fee, right? You know, and it's an exaggeration of an example, but I've seen some insane rates being thrown out to where you're not only are you not trying to align with my goals, right? But the outreach is just so transactional and the number is so astronomical that it's almost like you rub the person the wrong way immediately. And it's just, it's just a note. It's just like, yeah, I'm going to pass instead aligning what your goals with theirs of like, what are you trying to get? Nick, like, oh, I'm trying to get new customers. It's like, okay, here's how I think I can get you a lot of new customers. And here's how we're going to structure the relationship, right? Instead, which I think this, this happens all too often is you see this as a transaction. And you're going to them and being like, hey, it's all business. This is my rates, here's my PDF deck of like all of my rates and sponsorships. Like, what do you think versus like, hey, have you actually looked at their website? Do you actually know how you would promote it? Don't send them some general PDF with some crazy numbers in it. Send them a real email and say, hey, like I checked out cast magic or I checked out absumo. And I love this part of it or I love this tool. I would really love to promote this in this in this way or the loom video that I mentioned ago. Here's just a quick example of how I would do it versus being like, you know, standard email, maybe it comes from some kind of sequence, you throw out rates that are crazy. And then you just kind of turn them off from from day one versus like, all you got to do is get them to say yes to where you can start to build value. And then what we do at absumo is charge on a CPM basis. And if your CPM, right, if your views are going up on your videos, we are going to pay you more. We will renegotiate contracts with influencers or with ambassadors based on the success of their channel. And that's what I think a really good creator and brand partnership is, is you're growing together. As you send me more customers, I pay you more money. Our goals are aligned and we're both winning versus you don't know who I am. You know, this is an impersonal outreach and you're asking for way too much. And you know, I can't even make this work with my budget, right? So I would think I'm on longer term versus short term. The beauty about the CPM component too is that a de-risk it for, it's de-risk, it's coming from the creator from a professionalist and sense of understanding the risk there is in this partnership for the brand. And so another thing is like, you know, when doing the outreach, what do you recommend to creators, sort of sharing their stats or their following count? Is that something that they should not do in the beginning and just more so talk about the partnership in itself? Like, I know you have a story that I want you to share on Ari, the, the, the, the shirts that 2 million followers and 36 shirts were sold. You put something out about that. So I'm curious on your take on like follower count versus success of partnership. Yeah. I think if you, if you've got the followers and you've got the engagement, I think that's something that you can tout. But I think it's almost like cart before the horse like if you don't have that and you're trying to, to monetize your channel or you're just trying to get some funds so you can keep this going. Like you're not trying to make any money. You're just trying to like pay for editing or pay for, you know, a new camera, whatever it is. Um, then, you know, I think that, um, that it's, it's really key to first, um, if you've got the, the, the follower counts and you've got the views, like I said, what are the advertisers looking for? Where are the brands looking for? Well, I'm looking for good engagement, not just views. Uh, I'm looking for real followers and real comments. Bots are huge on you to all social media channels pumping up these creator channels to make it seem like they have these insane followings and insane engagement. And then you go and, and there's a couple spam checkers that we use and actually go look at their channels. It's, it's just bots. It's fake. What you want is genuine followers, real connections and real engagement. One ratio that we use is, uh, a CPM based on the last 10 videos, uh, the views of the last 10 videos and then a ratio of follower to view to comment accounts, right? So it doesn't matter if you don't have a lot of followers or you don't have a lot of subs. If you're sub to view count to, to comment ratio or really good, you know, let's say you have 100 followers and you get 80 views on your videos. And of those 80 views, you get like 20 comments. That's a really good ratio, right? That means you have a, a great channel of people that are really engaged. So that alone without the, the high numbers to me is more interesting than someone who's got, you know, 500,000 subs, but their, their comments look really shady or they have really low views, right? It means like they're, their followers are not very engaged, uh, and they're not watching the videos when they come out because as a brand, you know, I want to do a deal that is going to ROI for me. So if I sponsor your video or I do a dedicated video with you, I want to see that traffic come to my website and that traffic convert to signups or to new customers. And if I can't see that in your last 10 videos or guarantee that that's going to happen when you release this video next week, then I'd be very weary. But if you can tell me like, hey, I have high quality engagement, I have good ratios. You know, are we going to drive a million new customers? No, we're not. But over time, I want to grow with you and I think I can drive some really good conversions and I can, I can provide some great content highlighting your brand because I love it. Like that's, that's a yes every single time. And like I said, would grow your fees as, you know, your channel grows. You know, on that note, um, there is this big push and pull between brands and creators on the flat fee and then the affiliate and the commission, et cetera. But the, the rewards can be, um, can outsize the flat fee when, when the partnership is well structured and there is alignment between both of the audiences, often for the creator. So I'm curious, what, what are some like, what's an example of a really successful campaign you've seen that even it took the creator by surprise in terms of like, how much more they made on the back end of the commissions, et cetera. And they ended up making more by structuring that way than with a flat fee. Yeah, so there, there's a couple over Black Friday, you know, just a month ago, it's our biggest time at AppSumo, you know, biggest week, biggest day. And we, we did this with a few where we had a, you know, a flat fee of, let's say a couple thousand that we would do per dedicated video. But with some of the top creators negotiated a flat fee of, let's say, 15 to 20% of gross sales. So instead of looking at the new or returning customer accounts, they knew that they could drive views, especially in this time of year. And also, this time of year, people are naturally going to convert more, right? People are conditioned to buy during Black Friday. And so if I was a creator, I would go really hard on Black Friday, lowering my fee amount and increasing the commission amount of saying, I think if there's any time for me to do this and like, adjust my ratios, this is it. And so we had a couple of creators that had videos of one viral, you know, two, 300 thousand views on a product that they reviewed on AppSumo and sent a bunch of customers and, you know, had a, like, five figure payout days that were from one video. And, and for me, that upside is what I'm looking for as an advertiser, you know, as a, as a brand of like, who can I really work with that, yes, they've got solid video views, they've got solid, you know, ratios, let's say, but if they do really well, maybe one in 10 or one in five, I have the opportunity to outsize my return. And that for me is, you know, the ultimate marketing metric, which is marketing efficiency or, you know, to use a fancy acronym, LTV to CAC is how we track all of our paid returns at AppSumo, the LTV meaning the customer profit that I'm getting from them, the CAC being how much I'm paying to get that customer for influencers, it would be the, the $2,000 of fee plus the commission. And then if they're sending me a bunch of these customers, the CAC is going to be very, very low, right, on a $2,000 spend and let's say only 15% of the commission. But my LTV on all of these customers, especially during Black Friday, high AOVs, I know that they're going to repurchase is going to be really, really high. And so that's how we measure success. What I would do if I was a creator is like, where can I really hit like a viral video where I know people will purchase like Black Friday is a great one, or if they have internal sales, you know, we have Sumo day in the summer that happens kind of like our, our own sale event. And we have a lot of really good deals. If, if you see an offer on a brand's website that you think you can promote and you think people will buy on, jump on it and negotiate a deal with them that has a really big upside on the commission kicker, you could even do tears, which we've done before. If your video gets 10,000 views, 50,000 views, 100,000 views, I want more of the commission. And that case study is going to change your, your media kid forever. Exactly. So I want to take this a step further and let's say I'm a creator, Tony in, pen to paper. Like how do I, how do I actually put my rate together? I'm ready to monetize my content Nick, I have 5,000 followers, 10,000, and I'm, I'm ready to set my rate. I like what you're saying, but how do I know what's an acceptable commission rate to take and what should my flat rate be? I'm ready to do this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it really depends on what stage you're at as a creator, you know, or you really established you, you know, do you have in the tens of thousands of followers or not? If we're taking this example of, you know, let's say it's, it's 10K and below, right? Like I feel like I'm starting to get some traction here. The videos are starting to pop off, but it's requiring a lot more time and money for me to, to maintain this channel. Well, I need to make some money, how I would approach it and if you want like an immediate yes from these brands is performance. So commission based first as a test, either one month or three month. And then the fee kicker comes in after that time period where the brand can choose to renew. So I would immediately look at the average CPM switch, I don't know if we can post like image overlays here and in post, but, but I can send a graphic here, which just has an anybody can look this up of CPMs by category, right? It could be, you know, entrepreneurship business entrepreneurship, you know, that for example is in the 120, 110, 120 CPM range, right? That's the, the category that I've seen most in. You could be trying to promote gaming, you know, could be around $66, right? Outdoors, $47, all of the different channels, and you know, YouTube has this, this information public of some of them are more monetizable than others, right? And so the CPM ranges will differ. So if you're in the business and entrepreneurship range, I would look at the average and you can kind of guess, okay, this is about how much brands are paying. If I'm coming into this brand new, I want to offer a deal to this brand. So I would go $10, $20 less than the CPM. So if the average CPM is $120, I would offer in the $90 to $100 CPM range and be like, hey, I would like to lock you into this rate, let's say for the first six months or the first 10 videos where you're getting an amazing deal and, and the first one month of it, I don't even want any fees. I just want commissions. And then after that, this is the CPM that we agree to. And it's, it's so risk-free on both sides because, you know, I have one month, which maybe a couple videos, you're not really putting in a ton of work, but the upside is, if it works, the brand will be like, I want to invest in this creator and you can sign a six month or a 12 month agreement with them at the CPM that you want. And maybe even the kicker of videos go viral, I get a bigger CPM or a bigger payout. And then as my channel grows, like I said, the CPM that is locked in, let's say at $110 and $120, you're going to get more money as more views come onto your channel. And so I really would, would look at what would be a no-brainer for the brand. And I think that, that motto, which I have at AppSumo is test and invest, of like, you don't know me, I have kind of a small follower base, but I know I can produce for you. And this is how I would structure the deal of making it very low risk and, and just like a no-brainer, yes, let's work together by looking at the CPM's buy category and then offering a really competitive, competitive proposal to this brand. I mean, that'll put you in the top 1% of creators in terms of like, you know, making the brand know that you know what you're talking about. Yes. And, you know, you're not just like sending a media kit with a flat rate. You know what the risk for the brand is and I especially love this for, you know, for the growth we're seeing in B2B creator content where SaaS, the affiliate commissions can be recurring and there is massive upside to that, completely changes the game, but you know, the influencer marketing was more e-commerce and now we're seeing more of this. And my one question to you, Nick, is what is the difference between say, if I as a creator, I'm emailing with someone and their signature says affiliate, head of affiliate or affiliate marketing versus head of influencer partnership, partnerships, what does that mean to me as a creator? What should I know about that? Yeah. I mean, that you really would only separate out those roles at larger companies. I would say that have that separation within their marketing department hours. For example, it is within the same team, right, the the affiliates, you know, referral affiliate and influencer are all handled by the same people. If you are going after a larger brand and you see an affiliate title, those are are usually people that are trying to recruit commission only based creators or affiliate marketers, you know, there are professional affiliate marketers out there that just operate off of commissions. So, if you're approaching someone that has affiliate marketing manager in their title, you can expect to invite them or for them to invite you to an affiliate program, right? So a big one we use is impact, other ones partner stack, tap affiliate, their first promoter, there's a bunch out there. They'll most likely invite you to that program where they're like, hey, join sign up here of the terms. You can get all of our assets and you can get our links from here. And then it's kind of like self serve from there, you know, you are doing the promotion. You can track all of your earnings within this platform and that's it, right? If you're approaching somebody that has an influencer marketing manager, that's what you can expect to do a little bit more of the negotiation of you're probably not going to be in the platform, they're probably going to pay you separately, directly, you know, ACH or through whatever payment system that their their finance team uses. And they're going to negotiate a longer term contract with you. So like I mentioned earlier, it could be a hybrid of fee plus commission. It could be just fee, you know, we work with a couple larger creators that don't really want the commission. They're like, hey, I know what I'm worth. Like, this is what I want. And if it's quality, then we'll do it, right? And that's really where the influencer marketing manager will come into play. It's a lot less of them, right? Like our ambassador network is very small compared to our affiliate network, which is, you know, over 17,000 affiliates, we select the ambassadors or the influencers that are highly relevant, long form video content. So not everybody fits or checks that box, right? And we want deeper, a more selective relationships with them where we can say, hey, we want to work with you long term at least three videos. I think like I said earlier, the one off does not provide you with enough data to cut through the noise of what is actually happening here, right? It could be a off video. It could be an off time of of season for the brand at least three videos, preferably longer term partnerships, six to 12 months, where you are basically an extension of their marketing team and paid on retainer, like I said, the fee or a hybrid fee plus commission. So I'm just starting out, you know, yeah, you could approach one of those big brands and do that. But I would personally go after, you know, the app symbol size companies that are 100 employees and less to where, you know, you could be a really valuable asset to them. They may not have this program off the ground yet, but you can come in early, you can negotiate a rate that works for you and you can, you know, have a very fruitful relationship with this company where, you know, you can, you can make a lot of money, especially as, as your channel grows. And, you know, we have some ambassadors that are making six figures a year, you know, we're going to pay out $2 million, over $2 million in, you know, in fees and, and commissions. And so, you know, people are doing this as their full-time jobs, and they don't have massive followings, you know, these are not the miseries of the world. Like, these are under a hundred thousand subs that are making six figures a year just from these, these partnerships. And so, it's a very lucrative industry, I think, and especially now, as a lot of advertisers are shifting their budgets away from traditional paid channels, like the meadows, the Googles of the world that everybody is doing, there's a lot of competition. CPCs and CPMs are really high, and they don't really feel like they have a lot of control, where affiliate, referral influencer, you control the rates, you're working with the influencers directly, and it's, it's just a lot better. It's a lot better quality customer, the LTV, the CACs are higher, and I feel like I can, I can control where my money is being spent, versus, you know, I write a $200,000 check to Zuckerberg, and then like, you know, he buys a bigger ranch in Hawaii, and it's like, great, like, that get me anything, like, what, what happened here, you know, and so, that's really the trend that I'm seeing, that's what we're doing at AppSumo, is really investing in the people that love our brand, and our products a lot more, and then, and then deepening the relationships with them, paying them more, you know, as an extension of our marketing team. So, I went on a little bit of a rant there, man, but I hope that answered your question. No, I love that. And Nick, one thing just to kind of piggyback on that, one thing that we've even been seeing, like we had mentioned before, I think now is such an amazing time to be an affiliate, because you can be an affiliate for a SaaS, the SaaS is making monthly recurring revenue, and you're making money just by promoting that every single month. So, it's not like a one-off deal, like you get some of these, you get audience to convert. You're getting paid every single month for, you know, 18 months, 24 months, whatever, whatever the lengths of the terms of the program are. And I think we saw this Ramon was working with a creator, and had him do a video. So, I think the video did like maybe 60,000 views on Instagram, and that creator was asking for, so for the brand to want to approve it, they were asking for like, oh, well, you pay me like $500 or $1000 to do the post, and we're trying to figure it out. Meanwhile, he ended up doing the post and would have made $2000 every single month for 18 months as an affiliate. So, it's kind of like just an amazing opportunity right now if you are a creator to be an affiliate, especially for these sort of sauce tools, but kind of as we wrap up, I want to hit the lightning round with you real quick. And so, let's do it. I know for creators, having people who create great content can be a great way for them to like learn and understand who's doing it really well. So, yeah, that's going to be kind of the theme of today's lightning round is like creators that are doing things really well. So, let's go. So, who is the creator that you admire the most? And why? Good question. A couple come to mind. I would say the one that I think I admire the most is Justin Welsh, probably one of my favorite Twitter follows. Another one is Danco. You know, both guys, I think, have built these, you know, one person businesses or very few people. They may have a couple of VAs working for them, but it seems very low complication, at least from the outside. I don't know them personally. I met Justin a couple of weeks ago and he just seems kind of like a low stress kind of guy. You know, he travels a lot to Europe and just seems to live his life while at the same time, you know, building this multi-million dollar, you know, creator business that doesn't really consume his life. I feel like him and Dan, you know, there are several others that seem to be living life on their terms. Right, they're not a slave to the brands that they are promoting or, you know, the content that they're creating. They have created a lifestyle for themselves that seems to be put first and the content or the content creation is helping them live their life. So I would say that. Like, people who can live life on their terms, how they want it, but still make money. And then just be generally pleasant to be around. I think that's who I admire the most. Cool. Next question. Which is your favorite creator brand? Ooh, good question, good question. I would probably say I'm a fan of Nick Shackleford. I like the drink brez brand that he's created. You know, I think the whole like alternative medicine, like microdosing cannabis and psilocybin is super interesting. I think it's blowing up. It represents the brand really well and I love his content on Twitter, so sweet. Next one, if you had zero followers, which social media network would you choose to grow the fastest? Yeah, that's a good one. I would say probably LinkedIn, I think the best marketing channels in general are where other people are not. And if you're starting from zero, like the, the Twitter's, the Facebook's, IG's of the world, TikTok's, like there's so much competition there, and yeah, you can still make it. I would say even podcasting too, like it is extremely competitive, but like LinkedIn still seems like a, there's a lot of opportunity and people think it's boring, but you know, people like Justin Welsh have built these huge businesses and followings off of this, this place that, you know, people think is a place to just to get jobs, but, but I would say LinkedIn. Awesome. And last question here is who is an upcoming creator that will be famous in the future? He may already be famous now, but I would say Danny Miranda, he lives a couple blocks away from me in Austin, I love his interviewing style and maybe he's famous in our circles, but I think he'll be actually famous very soon. Love that. Well, Nick, we want to thank you for coming on uploading at a great time, unpacked a lot of content strategy and creator strategy. So thank you and for our, for our listeners tuning in, where can we connect with you? You can connect with me on Twitter. My handle is Nick AC1, that's probably the best place, LinkedIn and Nick Christensen, yeah, shoot me a message. I would love to hear from you. Sweet. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, Vic. Go, thanks guys.