UFO Researcher Reveals New Alien Theory - Grant Cameron - DEBRIEFED ep. 79

So that he said at that point, he could heal people. This woman comes up to and there's twins. These women are twins, they're in their 70s. One woman says, "My sister here, she had a stroke. She can't hear. She's still lead off. Can you heal her?" And Chris is standing up in front of the hotel. Suddenly a cell phone, there's Tim Taylor. Tim Taylor says, "If you're in front of the hotel, it's someone needs a healing." Go ahead and do it. No way. Yeah, so he says, "Wait a second, hold on a second, this is so strange." He puts his hands on her ears. And he says, "In the name of Jesus, like I've already said, "Nayah Jesus, I heal you or whatever." And this woman goes into my lecture and she comes out of the lecture and she says, "I can hear, I can hear everything said, I can hear." All the people from the conference go to this restaurant across the street. This girl goes back and she's distraught. She's like, "Holy, can't believe what happened." It was like a third person just in the conversation she says. It was like, "Tim Taylor, Tim Taylor, Tim Taylor." The phone was a transmitter phone that he had been given this phone. I don't know if this is true. He'd been given this phone. It was a transmitter phone. Everything that he did was being recorded by somebody. That summer, a rich business guy out of New Jersey has a cottage, maybe built a log cabin in big log cabin in Pennsylvania. So I get invited and the only guy with no money there suddenly, Tim Taylor shows up. And it was my friend that invited him. And then he says to Tim Taylor, he's just, "Hey, we're going on a UFO dig." You want to come along? And Tim goes, "Yeah, yeah, sure." So they go to the Gerald Anderson case. - Okay. - And they're pulling up this medal. And I still remember my friend. Now he won't talk. He's forgotten everything. He's forgotten everything that happened. Tim Taylor said, when he got some of this mail, he said, "This is the real Leo." I had the download experience. So we talked about downloads. And he talked about the invention. So he gets this invention. He's got 40 patents. And then he's in contact with, oh, he's called him, the beings or whatever. He doesn't call me aliens, whatever. And they give them these inventions. So the first one came. He'd woke up in the morning with this idea in his head. And supposedly this company sold for $88 million or $100 million on Nasdaq or whatever. And he said, the last thing I remember the night before was a hooded figure standing at the bed. So at one point, he pulls out his cell phone. And he says, "We think of this. Sure, it's my photo. These two guys are on a painting. And these two guys are flying through space. I'm just painting." And they look like they have a jammer zone. One guy's older than the other guy. And then he shows me another photograph of these balls all going down this tunnel. And then he shows me another one. This eclipse thing. But the eclipse is taking place. And then he shows me this photograph. And it's like a screen on the outside of a building. And then he shows me the catcher. And he shows me this. And this is 999 Sepulveda Avenue. And then he says, "You know what this is?" He said, "This is where the jump room was." "If I hadn't known who he was, I would have been attention." Hey, Chris, I'm a US Navy Medical Corps officer. I've been in for a while now. And I watched your video on the anatomy of an alien, the ebios. And I thought it was really interesting because the person speaks like a scientist. So, and he isn't any dialect. That person has a similar dialect to somebody who does biological research. While in initial training to become a Navy officer, I had the privilege to serve with a few people going to that same location. They were microbiologists. And if you know any of the connections, they were all some work. So, I thought that was interesting. During the time, I got sort of to know that person as an acquaintance. I made a joke about alien bodies. And that if it were true to send me this non-Shawant text, that we've never text each other before, that I would reply to with wrong number. In that regard, they text me about two to three months after we had finished training with just that. And could they have been messing with me, yes. But I don't know, one way or the other, it's a data point. Thank you. Welcome, Grant Cameron. Thank you very much. It's an honor to be here. Well, it's an honor to have you, sir, as a, you know, I'm just sort of, you've been this trailblazer, especially for Canadian UFO researchers, but honestly, just UFO researchers worldwide. You know, your career spans decades and looking into, you know, UFO insiders, government insiders, presidential papers, exploring the phenomenon from the nuts and bolts aspect all the way to the non-physical and sort of consciousness-based aspect of the phenomenon, which is something I'm looking forward to touching on, as I'm sure that's kind of like the peak of your research, which is really interesting. So yeah, thank you for making it all the way out here. I appreciate you. Well, it's an honor to be here and to be in the skiff. It's just hopefully you have a high enough security clearance to take what I can give you and not nearly high enough. And there's not many Canadians. So I appreciate the work you've done. I mean, you've done tremendous amount in a very short time. So yeah, because usually we see it as American phenomena and there's not many Canadians. So I congratulate you on what you've done here. I'm very impressed. Thank you so much. That means a lot coming from your grant. It really does. And, you know, what, to get it started, we were at lunch and you presented me with this here stone, this piece of what looks to be maybe some slate of a Canadian mountain range, I would assume. Or. Well, it's, I don't know, not mountains. It's flat, but it's a lake area, like the lake area near Cernora, Ontario. And why is this particular rock so special? So this is one of the more faint. I guess there's two big famous stories. The Shag Harbor in Canada, and the second one is this one is the Falcon Lake. This is 1967, 10 days before the the six day war begins. And there's a geologist out looking for medals and stuff like that. And he tells a story where he's sitting there having lunch on sitting on a rock. And all of a sudden, he hears the geese all go sort of crazy and he looks and there's these two UFOs. However, he's sort of a small little lake. And he watches and the one disappears and the one comes and lands. And it would be about maybe 75 feet from where he was sitting on this rock. And so he looks at this and he thinks it's American, American space, you know, test crafter waiter. The door opens on this thing. And I always go when I talk to people about UFO sightings when they have UFO sightings. And this falls in the same category. Although it's very bizarre is when you ask people, what was the UFO doing? I wasn't doing anything. And this wasn't doing anything either. It just landed in the door opened up. And this guy was a Polish guy. His name was I'm afraid his name is Michael. Yeah, Steven Mikałak. So he walks, walks up to this thing and the door is open. You can see there's light coming out of it. And he says, okay, Yankee, boys, come on out. Do you in trouble? Are you in some help or whatever. And there's no answer. And then he goes in Polish. He goes in Russian. He knows all sorts of languages. And nothing really answers. And he sort of looks in and you can see these lights and these walls are sort of very thick and whatever. And at that moment, the door sort of closes. And he's got his he's got a rubber glove on because he's prospecting. He's got his rubber glove on and the the craft lifts off the ground. And starts to rotate. And as it rotates around, there's a grid, which makes no sense whatsoever. A grid on the side of a flying saucer. And this hot air comes out and it starts his his his shirt on fire. His glove is on fire. And he ends up with his burn patch like a like a checkerboard on his on his from this grid pattern. And the thing flies off. And he's throwing up. He's you know, really trying to get back to Winnipeg. And he he managed to get back to Winnipeg. And it becomes one of the more famous stories. Blue book comes up to investigate it. It's investigated Rootswood City by he was down at Mayo Clinic. And his burn would come back on his chest. This sort of weird stuff that happens in mythology and in paranormal where it it goes away. Then it comes back. Well, I didn't know that it came back. Yeah, we'd come back all the time every couple of years. This would come back. So the mid he had to go down to Mayo Clinic and people recovered his records and stuff like that. And and it was a very, very famous case in Canada. It was some people called the Canadian Roswell. So there's been nobody at the site because it's a very remote site. It's off high with one just before you get to Folk and Lake. But you need to go in by horseback. Even today. Even today. I guess you could walk down the path. It's sort of it's in a forest area. Real thick forest area off the highway. Yeah, that that's I mean, that's a testament to, you know, how far we've come. Yeah, yeah, if there are places in the world that we still can't get to without a horse, which is well. So it's got a near Rob Freeman. If you know him, he's has the big camera array. Right. He has all these cameras and stuff. And yeah, I think he was down at the Monroe Institute doing some stuff there. And he does the blindfold reading, which I think is really, really important. He does the the stuff with people seeing through blindfolds and stuff. I got it as his latest research. But anyway, he was he was doing a film project. He was in Manitoba. He wanted to do the trailer red star, which was my case. And then he said, Well, we don't want to we don't want to go to Folk and Lake. So he went there and there's a tour guide who has a farm there or horses just off the highway. And he lends takes tours in there. And when we got to the site, there was he identified the fact that there had been less than a hundred people since 1967 who had actually been to this site. And so he's the creative film crew is filming and Rob Freeman's filming and this tour guide is explaining this whole thing. And I'm sitting there and I'm, you know, sort of bored and walk around. I suddenly see that the rock is all fracturing the top of the rock. I'm thinking, well, this is a case where the UFO landed. And there was no tripods. So it was actually sitting right on the rock. And so these pieces of so I start picking up these pieces of rock and then I fill up my pockets I think oh I could sell these for like 50 bucks a piece at a conference You know and then I look at my sister and she's picking up rocks. She's putting them in her pocket But you know that's filming is going on and so from time to time I give it out So this I brought for you and it the key thing is it was the UFO was actually touching the rock that you have there It was sitting right on the rock and they had I think slight radiation not really radiation had some stuff But they the weird thing they had which you see a lot I wrote a book on it on a ports and manifestations So what they had is this metal this silver metal that appeared in the cracks like like angel hair type no no actual metal Okay, yeah, actually pieces of metal that were in the cracks But they didn't discover it I think till 68 they went in for another investigation at 68 That's when they found the metal but you'll find that all the time And I always refer to that as sort of the weird part of the UFO thing I think I say do you think a UFO cross across a thousand light years came to earth and then pieces started falling off the UFO come on I even talked to help put off. I said how I said you know this is a ports. This is not pieces of flying saucer It's not this is not things breaking off the flying saucer. This is they're dropping the stuff on purpose to to inspire you to do something and to make you wonder what's going on Yeah, hold the whole fear of well thing make you that's right on curious and so you only research and I said you even know Because you had the experience with Yuri Geller and that was a story that Yuri Geller in 72. They were doing research with him and so Edgar Mitchell help put off and Yuri Geller go for lunch and Yuri Geller is eating ice cream and suddenly he says oh what and he pulls the thing out of his mouth is lip is cut and And he they look at him and and then Edgar Mitchell says That's my flight pin. What's my flight pin doing in your in your mouth? And he said he'd lost the flight pin in Houston two years before and so he pulls the thing out and you look at his weird This flight pin is in Yuri's mouth and so they go back to the SRI and Then their Yuri's in another room. So I can't blame Yuri for this Yuri's in one room and Edgar Mitchell and help put off her Singing in the other room and I was saying his tink and to look around the back half of the flight pin is on the floor Oh, wow, and so this is that's why I said the hell this is this is this weird stuff that they do time slip stuff So I wrote a whole book on this whole thing about reports and manifestations. You'll ask experiences You know, they'll say oh, I just had this one you are for stating I say hey, yeah, anything if her fly around her house or follow the ceiling Yeah, can you hang on and then go and bring back all this stuff? Oh, yeah, that's fallen in coins and we hear about liquid, you know coming from these orbs Even Chris blood. So, you know, there are pictures that he's shared of Molten metal on the ground and you know, you hear a lot of stories about things like that, but then, you know Initially wonder Why like what's happening here? Is it shedding its skin? Is that is that just some property of how it instantiates? But then the theory and I love that this is something I wanted to bring up as well was your theory of wow Is really interesting because it kind of neatly in a way ties together most of what we're experiencing here which is This idea that it is here to inspire you. It's instantiating in any It's kind of interacting with your consciousness to determine how to instantiate and then when it does show up It's meant to have you question things or to inspire you to create like almost like a muse would and I think that's really interesting When you look at the phenomenon from that lens because then it becomes more about what is this trying to teach me rather than why are they here? Yeah, and I think that's just more profound and and aligns a lot more with the experience or Experience for a lack of a better word, but in in the fact that they feel like they it happened for a reason like there was a message there That there was some type of direction or guidance that was being attributed to them by these By this and it's never a full message because a full message is left-brain It's we're here to bring free different doctors Jesus and McDonald's What they're doing is freedom of democrat Jesus and McDonald's that they're doing the right brain thing It's a simple you're never going to figure it out. They don't give you the full answer They just give you a breadcrumb so they do weird things like the one with Gary Noelle I remember I first saw it when Gary Noelle and and hell started doing all the analysis on the metal and they had the ube tupa piece Right and they had two fragments of the ube tupa piece and the one piece was completely normal and the other one had all these isotopes They're all messed up. This is the same metal. It's the same comes from the same craft and you can just say let's see whatever intelligence is just laughing It's like man, look at this look at the expression on his face. Like and you see these and they're so weird That's the thing. It's like a crop circle or they want it to be really really weird I sometimes I call it the Jesus circus where if Jesus hadn't walked on water 5,000 people raised Lazarus in the dead You never heard of the guy right and that's what they're doing. They're doing this weird thing where you talk about it Yeah, so you talk about it and you would have cases like we had the one one of the most bizarre ones I had was A woman experienced her in the Tucson area and she came into her Bathroom and there was a pilot dirt in the middle of the bathroom floor and it had these little white discs in it And it's like she's looking at this thing. She photographs it she brings in the researcher and he looks at it And then they go to the go to the restaurant and then sitting at the restaurant and somebody leaves the thing come back and they say Look under your chair She's got another pilot dirt under her chair and see kind of weird things where it makes no or they put the dime There's a lot of those dimes. I remember I was actually talking to that researcher He said can I show you something and he reaches over and he gets this this thing full of dimes I said I know the dime story every talks about dimes their mother dead mothers bringing them dimes and and people would find I used to volunteer at wrong McDonald's and the one of the people that was a cleaner there She said my mother has all the time in here. I find dimes on the on the windowsills and stuff like that And she believed it was her mother But it's this weird sort of thing where they they they want it mysterious It's guiding you in almost like a synchronicity fashion where if you're open to it You'll kind of start seeing a pattern and otherwise you won't even see it at all which again You know kind of favors the experience or over the skeptic in terms of witnessing the phenomenon Yeah, so there's the way I sort of see it is there. There's two different levels I always say that science doesn't work. They think they work on proof But I say they work on belief. So what do you have is you have a hypothesis? Yeah, which is a guess right nothing more than a guess I guess it's this it looks like this you do some experiments. You do some observations you do a conclusion Then what do you do make another guess? Yeah, I guess you can make another and you either tie each time you get closer and closer and closer and closer The difference with the experiencer and stuff is if you had the experience like you were talking about out-of-body experiences and stuff People who have these non-local experiences they won't say well, I think it was just let's say I know Right, there's a knowing there's a knowing. It's called a knowing even in the field. It's called a knowing Yeah, that's what happened to me in 2013 when I had this download experience watching call in Andrew give a lecture on crop circles Which I wasn't interested so the contact modality was I was daydreaming before we continue with today's conversation I'd like to point something out You see I'm sitting here talking to a researcher Someone who spends years digging through archives documents records chasing information Most people never see that kind of work requires curiosity, but here's the irony while researchers are digging into hidden systems There are companies quietly digging into us data brokers collect your name address phone number email history Even relatives and if you're researching sketchy subjects or speaking publicly like our guest today Having your personal information scattered across the internet is not ideal That's why I use Encogni You see, and Cogni automatically contacts data brokers on your behalf and requests that your personal information be removed Instead of you trying to track down dozens of companies yourself and Cogni Handles the requests and keeps following up and if you want to take control of your data Go to incogni.com/area52 and use code area 52 to save 60% on an annual plan because your privacy should not be declassified Now let's get back to the research I was just sort of my mind was wandering and all of a sudden boom all this stuff came into my head and I knew it I walked around for two days my head was just sort of spinning and I went wow You know this this is how I couldn't I said it you know in 2012 I couldn't spell consciousness But I couldn't care less. I mean, I didn't know but it was just like this knowing is and now it's trying to figure out What's this mean and then he got more the consciousness element got more elaborate more elaborate and elaborate and something I was going down that road and I remember one major interview at the time said I can't believe he's done this grant I can't believe he was a president guy Not simple. I can't believe you've done this and I said well Jerry You know, I didn't really I didn't really choose to do it. I sort of got teleported there Yeah, it was not something that I entered and you hear not something Jerry wanted to hear you hear your experiences all the time Not even really planned it. It just suddenly they were in the middle of the thing That's right and it comes with this knowing and they spend the rest of their life down the rabbit hole I even said you said meetings called rabbit hole meetings when people could come on the meeting And I used to run a group called experiences anonymous in Winnipeg So you could come to the meeting and you could sit there for two years and never tell your story like alcohol Right, and then when somebody told your story say I thought it was crazy, but I'm gonna tell my story now I'm gonna tell mine and and that's what that's what this sort of thing is is is that people They're afraid to talk about it because it's just so weird. They they think everybody's gonna think they're crazy Yep, and they need someone to give some like in the big UFO meetings You'll see before they have an experience your meeting an hour before the the lectures begin and all these people are in there And they're crying and they're talking because that's the first time they've ever been told you tell their experiences So when I had these rabbit hole meetings, I had a hundred people on a rabbit hole meeting where they can They could come on Zoom, they could turn off the camera, they could put their camera on, they could talk whenever they wanted, nobody knew who they were, and they could sit there and listen to other people having these experiences. And that's the thing that they really missed, that they would go to our conference, not community, to lectures. They were going to this experiences thing, where they could, their friends were, and they could tell their stories and stuff. So that's where you, you see a different aspect of the UFO phenomenon. - Oh yeah. - Everything's you're talking about, you know, you're at a UFO conference, and you're talking about flying saucers and showing photographs, and no, you're talking about this, what's reality, what's going on, and you're at God, almost all these conversations gravitate to that. - Super deep, yeah. Yeah, it is interesting as well. Like something I've noticed with a lot of experiences, is that initially you'll hear the sort of bullet point version of the experience, and you've probably had this many times as well, but you know that as soon as you scratch the surface, you get into some weird stuff, and normally people are very reticent and reluctant to come forward with this information and say, you know, let's start with, I saw a big black triangle, you know, it was hovering at a thousand feet, it took off, and then you go, oh, interesting, anything else happened, maybe the day before or the day after, and they go, oh yeah, I had an orb float through the wall, then my cupboards were all open, and there was a poltergeist in my house, or you know, I swear I saw, you know, my dead relative walked through that, like you'll have these adjacent super bizarre fringe and niche stories pop up, and rightfully so, like, you know, people are a little by little in taking the UFO stuff, and much like we're seeing with public sort of the disclosure movement, is that we're being sort of drip fed this nuts and bolts militarized physical version of it, which I gotta say, they've been doing since the '50s, like they haven't really changed their strategy on how they're giving us any of that, you would think that after 70, 80 years, we would start to also sort of drip feed the fact that, hey, there is a non-physical component to this, that is probably much greater, much more impactful, and much more present than the physical part, but for whatever reason, you know, it takes real research and sort of the research that you've been doing to come to that conclusion, and whatever that is gets more and more and more confusing. It doesn't get more clear of it gets so weird. - I mentioned that before we had come in here about James the Cascade, where he ran the ASAP program, the big government program, and he made the statement that Reed was going to move it from $22 million when they finished that. They were gonna move to $100 to $150 million. - Perry, yeah. - And he said $150 million, and we weren't going to go chasing around the country looking after flittering UFOs, and he was basically saying it's the paranormal stuff, and the experiences have the same thing. They think it's not related, so when you say to someone, oh, I had this dream, I just dreamed of aliens, I don't think I really had an abduction or whatever, and then you say, "Anything happening in your childhood?" Oh, it's like that, and they don't think it's related. - Right. - And you and I now, and I think UFO field is starting to know it's related, 'cause I started in '75, and in '75 there were locked you up, as I said, they would have locked you up, if you said you had more than one in the UFO setting, 'cause it was like, you have random UFO sightings, they're from extraterrestrials, and you don't have repeated UFO sightings, there's no paranormal, there was none of that sort of stuff. It was a very simple world, and it's sort of evolved, whether it's the intelligence doing it, or whether it's the government, dripping it, 'cause I think the government is dripping the story as well, gradually trying to acclimatize people, 'cause you had this rant study in the '60s and said, unless you acclimatize the people, it's game over, you're going to have a lot of trouble. - And they've probably done that over and over in that study to determine where we're at, but it is interesting that they take that approach, and, you know, because you look at when Stargate got declassified and sort of, I think it was like 2017, when all the papers came out, but like in '95 or '96, there was this submission, yeah, that this thing was real, and immediately they go into, oh, it never worked, it never worked, like it's all blah, blah, hokey stuff, but like meanwhile, we know that there's still obviously practicing this stuff, and it moved over to SAIC, and it got privatized, and it's just interesting that they still take that approach, and that signals to me, and I don't know what that says to you, but to me, it definitely signals that A, either the truth empowers the public much more than they're aware, much more than the government's comfortable with, or B, they don't know what they're dealing with, like those are the two options, right? - Yeah, I think they don't really know, they know, like Jim Semivano talks about this, yes, we have bodies and crafts, yes, there are legacy programs, I know where they are, I'm not gonna identify where they are, but he said, I will make a bet, I will bet one year of my pension salary, against anybody who has something different that they haven't got a clue, because you got bodies and crafts, doesn't mean you know what you're dealing with, and I think that's the whole thing, which is the risk of, now Trump coming forward, is, he's now he's asking like a million one questions on Epstein files, once this comes forward, it's gonna be a million and one questions on UFO, UFOs, and he's gonna say, is, can we talk about something else here? What's all, and that's the thing, it opens up the door, they don't want to open up the door, so they do this gradual, I wrote about it first in '89, when I talked about the "Bobbles are" thing, which I, that's what I believed it was, it was this deal where they wanted the story out, but they wanted to fall apart. - To control it, yeah, and so if you want the story out, you give it to New York Times and Washington Post, you take them to the facilities, you show them the bodies, you show them the crafts, you show them the photographs, but if you don't want it, if you sort of want it out, you give it to Bob Lazar, you give it to somebody who, - Passage material. - Yeah, you know that it's gonna fall apart as soon as that guy becomes public, they're gonna realize the guy had a pirate flag, and he had a car, and he worked with props to do it, and all this sort of stuff, and the thing falls apart, and that's what they want, so they put it out and they pull it back, and I really can't talk about it, but they're actually doing it again. They've done it, they did it with Tom DeLong, it's what Tom DeLong was about, and this new guy, he's a film guy, and-- - Do you mean, are you referring to the Star's Academy? - Yeah, well, this is the new guy, and I said, I said, do you knew the new Tom DeLong? And he's a film guy, and I sort of ruined it for him, the first time, so I can't say too much, but basically I was involved in this as well, and I'm going, I'm warning him, I'm going, like, to done this under times, and watch out. - Do you mean there's a new guy being approached by the government? - Yeah, right. - And I was part of it, yeah, I was part of it. - And we know who this is? - I know who this is, friends. - Would I know who this is if you said it? Okay. - So anyway, and I just gave my opinion, it said, it's up to you, it's your money, you're spending your money, you can do what you want, and it's sort of like I'm in the game here, and I said-- - Oh, they're letting him in. - You knew Tom DeLong, and that's, they always used the same statement. Like, Tom DeLong went in the skiff, and he said, you guys can't get this out, I can get this out, and they said, maybe this'll work, and so they put him out, and then before that, it was Bill Moore, before that was Bob M and Ager, before that it was Walt Disney, and it's this whole thing, is the idea is-- - Do you think Spielberg's part of that train, too? - Well, the Hall of Men airfare space is the prime story. That's the story that-- - Well, let's go to the Hall of Men airfare space in the Bob M and Ager story, because this is, for me, part of Core UFO lore, not only does it imply the CIA trying to control the narrative, but it also implies that we have some type of meeting or treaty potentially with some type of intelligence. - And that's a highly classified subject, and if you listened to the last interview that James Katsky did, they asked him about communication, and he said, I can't go there. - Eric Walker, we asked him 30 years ago, what about communication? And he said, we promised not to tell. - Wow. - So it seems to indicate, and if you go back in '59, they were channeling an alien at the CIA, there's stories that they were flashing lights with the planes in the city. - I mean, Dan Sherman was in contact with these things as well. You look at even David Grosch being asked by Ross Kultart about treaties and he kind of goes, he's kind of evasive. - Yeah, that seems to be a very highly classified aspect. Are we actually dealing with these beings? And it would make sense. If you were the government, why would you not try to contact this? - Of course. - If you know it's real. And they've known it's real since at least 1950s. The Canadians were told 1950 top secret memo. We were told by American officials, not people on the street. He said, by American officials, flying saucers exist. It's the most highly classified subject in the United States. It's of tremendous significance to the Americans. And there's a small group headed by Dr. Van of our Bush, who are trying to figure out the modus operandi. And we were also told by American officials that other things might be associated with the flying saucers, such as mental phenomena. - And that is the Wilbur Smith documents. - So they've known a lot of the pieces since then. And as I mentioned you before, that was in the memo was written in November, in the December, it was put out December, just before Christmas. And six months later, Oman Slant, who is mentioned in the top secret memo, it said we're putting this in front of Oman Slant. He was the head of weapons for the Canadian military, for the defense research board. He was a chairman. And six months later, they have the first MK-Altra study or meeting happened right here in Montreal at McGill University. And Oman Slant was on that meeting with the CIA and with the Europeans with Britain. And then you know years later, the CIA actually paid a million dollar damage to the Canadians who were involved, including the wife of an MP. So you go directly from having, okay UFOs are real, they exist in the Wilbur Smith memo, immediately following that up by saying, and other phenomena such as like mental phenomenon is also involved here. And then six months later in Canada as well, they're like, well, they're saying mental stuff is involved. they start doing it. M.K. Ultra stuff at McGill. You got, you know, doctors like a doctor, panfield doing all sorts of, like sketchy, you know, sort of operations on the brain and figuring out what's going on there. Even at West, didn't they have some stuff? - Saskatchewan, yeah. - Yeah, and Saskatchewan as well, like some deprivation tanks that they were bringing unwilling, so they weren't telling people what they were doing, and locking them in a deprivation tank to study what was going on. - So I was just to wonder, like, how did the Americans know that mental phenomena? Because Adamski doesn't appear until about two weeks after the detonation of the first hydrogen bomb. That's when he appears. - Right. - When it's after the detonated hydrogen bomb. It's 52. - November of 52. - Oh, okay. So this is two years before. So Adamski was the first one to talk to them and said they were telepathic, but nobody was talking to aliens in the 1950s. How did they know? And then you go and you get the other story about the Roswell thing. It always was with the M.K. Majestic 12 document that there's four dead aliens, and we remember we talked to Walker about that. And he said, "You guys are speculating and almost everything you believe is wrong. How do you know they died? How do you know they didn't get up and walk away?" And now we know this story that one of them, they got up and walked away. They just left the craft and walked away, and that the idea was at Roswell that the M.K. 12 document is not accurate. It's maybe part of the document that they changed. There was three dead aliens and one live alien, because now you have all these people said there was a live alien, and it was talking in their heads. And that was how they would know there was mental phenomena. So if you've got an alien that's talking in people's heads, and if you're an intelligence, you go, "Wow, we lost that kind of thing." - We lost that kind of thing. - Oh my God, we could go to the version that they're talking his head, and we could tell him we're God, and you know, and that's the whole thing, because I wrote a book on our ports where you see that they're into all this kind of stuff, because they did the apports, and there's actually a DIA document from 1973 that said, "If we could master this phenomenon, that partition of moving things from one place to another, we could go to the Russians, we could go into the vault, we could get the documents, bring them to Washington, for to copy them, bring them back, put them in the vault, and they would never even know we were there." - That's right. - So you can tell, "Sure, you're going to work on this kind of stuff, because it's got you out there." - And they absolutely did that, by the way, with, you know, grill flame, sun streak, stargate, all of that. Pretty much exactly what they were doing was intelligence gathering, you know, perceiving things at a distance remotely. All right, let's dial it back to Holliman. Holliman Air Force Base, set it up here, what happens at this place, what happens, afterwards, and what are the rumors? - Okay, so I knew Bob Emmanager, who was the co-producer on it. There was Bob Emmanager, who was the guy, he said, "I was the guy who did all the work, I mean, did all the music." - Yeah, a flying saucer's past president future. - UFO's past president future. - Sorry, yeah. - Which later becomes UFO's, it has begun. - That's right. - And in UFO's begun, I shouldn't, before I forget, I should mention that the top secret, the Charlie Red Star video, that got me involved, is shown on that, but it's like two seconds, you can't really, and Jacques Vallet introduces this thing, this film, which is a amazing film. But anyway, so they did two versions, and then in 1983, according to Bob, there was a general, who was Ronald Reagan's first agent in Hollywood, comes to him and said, "They liked what you did in '75. They'd like you to do another documentary." And then Reagan, and then he says, "Is Reagan behind us? He's trying to figure out what was this coming from." And then they wanted Jacques Vallet and they wanted Jalen Heineck involved. And in '83, the general had said, "They were there," and they said, "Okay, Heineck's here. Get all the film out of the vault. Give him the film." And then Charles, who was a security manager, said, "Sorry, General, I can't do that. I need a requisition. I can't just pull it out. God damn it, I'll have your ass." You get the film out and give it to Heineck, and it all fell apart because of what they wanted, was they wanted Heineck and Jacques Vallet to be in the documentary and back it up. But Jacques Vallet already knew what happened in '75, and he knew that they would pull it at the last minute, and that would be in his career. So what was on this film? For those listening who've never heard about it, Hollman, let's say it. Okay, so '75, Bob goes to go to Norton Air Force Base. He gets called in. He has no interest in UFOs. He's never heading, even after he was involved. He's a comedy guy. You watch comedy channel all the time. So he gets called in with his friend, Sandler, and Sandler is the operator. He's the guy, CIA, connections, FBI. He's got all these connections and stuff. And his Bob Emmanager's wife said, he wasn't very smart, but he could give him a stick and a piece of gum in the morning, and he'd come back at night with a pile of money. And he was so really good at operations. So he got the meeting set up. They went to Norton Air Force Base and Paul Charles comes up, and he says, "You know, it's a Vietnam war, and it's not going very well. The American military isn't seen in a good light. We would like you to do this documentary on working with dolphins, 3D holography, and they give him eight different projects that the military is working on. People say that's pretty cool. Distract people, boost morale. Yeah, boost morale. And so they said, and then he says, "Oh, and we also like you to do this documentary on UFOs, and we'd like you to hide it under the other documentaries." And Bob, I've been going, "You have a UFOs? You kidding me? You have a UFOs?" And he said, "I was telling my wife, Margaret, quick reading those stupid things. The alien had my baby. His wife was crazy." And he said, "And now you're telling me, this is real." And he said, "Well, what would I tell you? What would you say if I told you there was a landing of an alien craft at Hollmann Air Force Base in May of 1971?" Now, you'll hear other stories where they put out 64. It should do it. You put up 64. Uh-huh. Linda, how was telling the story? So then you have this, that's what happens in UFO situation, is in order for them to distract you from the story. They don't have to kill you. All they do is put a second story in that has different details. And then suddenly it's like my version versus versus Linda Hollmann. Well, it's playing 3D chess over here. So I talked to Bob, and he said, "No, I'm telling you. I was, I guarantee you, with May of 1971, it was 6 o'clock in the morning. There was four cameras. He's naming, as if he had read the whole thing. He knew something was going on." So he, he, um, he tells the story where they tell him, you can go and he said, "I walked in the Pentagon. They were dealing with, um, um, Colonel Coleman, who was the head of Air Force, um, spokesman for the Air Force. He had flown after a UFO in World War II, had a background and stuff, and they went to Coleman, and they said, "They walked right into the Pentagon. They didn't sign in. They just walked right into the Pentagon." And the Pentagon said, "Hey, guys, what are you guys doing here? Every time you guys do this kind of stuff, the phone lines light up, and, and we kind of deal with all this crap, and you guys are doing this all the time." And then, uh, uh, Sandler says, "What are you talking about? You guys invited us here." And then they said, "Oh, okay." And then they, and then they, they go and Coleman says, first thing he says, "I just want to warn you. If you see anything just classified and you put it out, you could go to jail." And then they go, and then, and then he tells him that, and then they go in the office, and he says, "Come on in boys." And he starts talking to Zip, nothing, and out. But this, so, so he was given that thing and he said, "What do you want to talk to?" So they went to the guy at Blue Book, uh, he had a blue book. Yeah. They had, um, they were given the story of the channeling of the alien in 1959. They were dealing with Art Lundall. Art Lundall was the first head of the Weird Desk at the CIA. So the Weird Desk is where they had no animal paranormal phenomena, the sight stuff, the remote viewing, uh, UFOs, all this kind of stuff. It's called the Weird Desk. So the first guy was Arthur Lundall, who was the, was a photo intelligence guy. He was the guy that ran the National Photographic Interpretation Center in Washington. That's where they analyzed the U2, the SR-71 on all the spot, slide photographs. So he was the guy in '62 during the Kennedy administration that went in when they were identifying missiles in Cuba. And it was Art Lundall was saying, "Here's a missile launcher. Here's a missile." Right. And identifying to the president what else that was. So that was his fame. And they channeled an alien at the Pentagon, which we do, do later. But they, and they get their story. So they start gathering this stuff together for this documentary. And then he says to Lundall, he says, "Can you go on camera and tell the story about the channeling at this CIA?" And he said, "No, I can't." And Bob says, "Well, I need something to tell the story. I'm one duty. I can't." And so they brought in Robert Friend. And if you actually look at the documentary Robert Friend, it tells the actual story that he gets called in two days later. And you see, you got to come and see this. And they go through the whole thing about the channeling and stuff like that. But I'll leave that for later. So they're back to Bob. So Bob's there and he starts gathering all this material. And he goes to see Winebrenner. And Winebrenner is saying, you know, they asked him, "What's the deal? What's the deal? It's a film at Hall of Menorfer spaces. That's actually real." And then Winebrenner gets up at the chalkboard and he starts drawing this to Russian Meg. And he says, "What's the deal? The Russians get to know everything. We have to release all our stuff." And he's going, "Maybe Mr. Sanders did my question." No, maybe he didn't understand what I was trying to ask him. And then he pulls this book off to shelf. And his jail-in-hinec book and he opens it up and it's signed by jail-in-hinec to him. And then he realized, "Oh, this is, his room is tapped. He's not supposed to play the game and stuff like that." So they talked to all these guys and they put the documentary together and they get to Hall of Menorfer space film. Now there's all this dispute where their Bob saw the film. He said, "He never saw the film. Sanders confirms that he actually saw the film." And then what happened is at the very end, they have all this material on different things like the launch at Vanderbure. Can we go into what was on that film? What they saw? So basically it's six o'clock in the morning at Hall of Menorfer space. A bunch of generals have been flown in from Washington for this event. It's completely known as to what's going to happen. It's all planned and they're all sitting there. And so when I asked Bob, you mentioned the Steven Spielbergs. I said, you know, as he was explaining this whole thing, the three UFOs come in. The two UFOs break off. The other one lands. These beings, the door opens up. These beings come out. Everybody's waiting for them and they shake hands. and then they put this UFO in a hanger and bubbly. goes to the hanger with this guy and they break the lock off and they look in the hanger and of course there's nothing there and stuff like that. And so that's the basic premise of what's on the on the yeah there's this sort of like almost like it's a it drops like a feather yeah it was described as the other two break off and drops the feather the door opens there's no seam kind of and these beings come out three beings and being incredibly tall wearing some garment on their head like some Egyptian car part of the story later because that happened later so anyway so they described the beings anyway they come out and so I said to Bob I said Bob it's kind of weird you know if it went for the location the time of day this sounds exactly close encounters with third kind and I said he said I didn't tell you said no you didn't tell me what I didn't tell you I gave a copy of Spielberg in 1975 I said no you didn't tell me that so it's close encounters comes out in 1977 and it's the story of closing counters that's where Spielberg got to think wait what yes gave him a copy of what of his documentary of the documentary and he wanted to see it and then he said I told you I told you and he Spielberg worked for us and he Spielberg was a line producer for us and I said oh yeah I forgot that and he did done a bunch of documentaries on on life after death and hypnosis and and Spielberg was involved his sister was his sister was involved and then and then he says he says to me he says and after it was over after close encounters came out Steven Spielberg's mother came to me and she said Steven and she's Bob I've seen your version in the landing and I've seen Steven's version in the landing and I like Steven's version better she said that she said so the year is later so this whole thing it sort of confirmed that this was this real and so then years later I got a email from Michael Luckman he wrote the first book on UFOs and music sure is a lot is a producer out of New York City and he said they hoaxed the whole thing I saw him in the hoaxed the whole thing and he sent me just photograph and he said you asked Bob to explain this and he shows the photograph and the beings that came out they had this sort of a thing tied around their head they had this intent of they had a staff they had the the long nose and stuff and a look at it and it's a it's a it's a it's a statue in a British museum and going here's the same thing that's it if you look at the photograph I sent you the photograph I sent you the photograph but if you look at the photograph in the book and the photograph identical and so I went holy cow he said the effect the whole thing the fake the whole thing and I said okay I'll ask Bob I went to Bob he said Bob this is kind of weird here you take a look at this like what do you say to this he's making the securization and it does look pretty close Bob and then he says oh oh he didn't know interest he said oh I'll talk to Alan it's because Alan's the the the manipulary guy so he goes to Alan and this email comes back we'll sue the man we'll see them just get ready we're gonna sue these guys well who there who does these things people think they are and and then this guy died of a stroke so the story sort of died but the one in that when you see it so what happened is when the film came out they pulled the film back so Bob says Coleman says to them he says we can't we can't let the film it's Vietnam War time isn't right we got to pull the film which is what they did to Disney Disney did a documentary the same thing he was gonna get a bunch of film and stuff and they pulled all that from him until last minute as well and Disney did it was never it was never released but Disney did a documentary so they had to pull it and he said I told you to start they we these two heavy-set people they're in this little tiny datsen and they got to drive from California back to the Pentagon to deliver this film and then there was eight seconds so if you've seen the UFO's past present future it says this may have happened in the past or it may happen in the future and they have to they're forced to storyboard the thing so they're sort of telling the story and they're sort of doing the stuff and all of a sudden you see this UFO coming over the mountain and it's coming in and the rumor gets going and I proposed this rumor I pushed it as well that there's eight seconds of the actual film that they had allowed it to be put in there so I went to Bob and I said Bob there's eight seconds of film in that documentary and he said well yeah and I said well why is that in there why did it give you the thing he said well didn't show anything and I said well didn't show anything but it still doesn't make sense it gave you this thing and that does the speed went back and forth and he said you know and then suddenly some guy contacts I hear that guy's got a high-deaf vision version of the documentary and he said that it was an F4 and I look at it and it is an F4 it looks like an F4 coming in over the mountain but the thing is it doesn't agree with the story and and so Bob was telling the truth so it didn't agree with the story because the story was there was three UFOs came in right and then only one landed this is only one UFO coming in yeah which is not the same story and and you can see it's an F4 and then you see this this being that is out of a British museum as in the way he said I said what happened he said okay uh shardal described it because shardal saw the film shardal described to my storyboard guy and my storyboard guy was describing the being so he was describing this being but he was describing this being out of the out of the British British museum and they put it in the book and they put it in the documentary and stuff like that and basically what it was was that the instead of I thought they'd given the government had given them eight seconds of legitimate film they'd given them eight seconds of garbage and they'd given them a phony alien picture to put in there and and none of that was true that was all this fake the eminagery put this stuff out so that the the picture that's in the the book yeah is is a is a confabulation is that statue identical statue in the British museum and the the other is an F4 if you see the high definition version it is a plane so we have nothing yeah that's what they want so the that's the thing to put it out they pull it back but but this video did exist it still does exist and and Geon Heinrich went after it and not Geon Heinrich well I guess he was looking at for it as well but the people that were really looking at it was the Nidz people yeah so what Nidz had with Bob Bigelow had a lot of money so what he did is he what what do you do if you've got a lot of money you pull in the best people can get green and put off the top of all the categories and you try to figure it out so they were working and that's what where the Wilson Davis leak came from the Wilson Davis notes was they were looking at this thing and saying they knew that that the meeting had taken place and they were trying to with between Greer and the admiral and was did this meeting actually take place so that's why they set up the meeting between Eric Davis and the general to get all the details and it becomes the Wilson but they were working on black triangles they were working on calendar relations and they were working on a home interface base yeah so because I knew Bob MNG are very well interviewed him piles of times help put off and Eric Davis were coming to me and trying to get material what did Bob tell you what do you tell you about this part of the story and then the story was that when they showed the documentary Christopher Dodd centered Christopher Dodd had seen the documentary and he was getting under pressure from his constituents and he filed on FOIA to get the the husband air first base film and he was told it was in a Navy sink and I've never figured out what a Navy sink is and hell actually used that expression as well but they were all trying to figure this thing out and so one of the parts of the story that people don't know it's sort of leaking out now is that Eric Davis who's the sharpest knife in the drawer and his work did diligently inside his sort of little classified world to find higher levels and what does people know and stuff like that he calls me one time and he says hey Jimmy Carter's phone number and I go now I got well why do I have a Jimmy Carter's phone or Canadian man I would have a Jimmy Carter's phone and I said what do you want Jimmy Carter's phone number for I said I just talked to Ford and I talked to Bush and and there's this rumored story when Carter was in there was an NPR guy was doing a documentary and I found his files in Washington at the National Security Archives and I talked about this documentary and I talked about this secret service guy who claimed that he had been in the Carter briefing and that he was showing a 15-minute color film so this is the whole deal is this the whole men film so they wanted to talk to Carter but nobody could get a hold the reason they got he got a hold of Ford and and Bush was because all three of them Davis and these two presidents are members of the former intelligence officers association so they you know talk to each other and they have phone numbers and stuff like that so he had your phone numbers so he told me back just 20 years ago and now he's made public the fact he talked to to Bush and the Bush had confirmed yes he had seen the film yeah but he didn't see it as see he didn't see it in his presidential intelligence briefing president elect until right briefing he saw that as he saw it as CI director and that the guy that was giving him a briefing didn't realize he hadn't been briefed on it and that when he was puzzled he said what tell you talking about and then the guy suddenly realized oh no he's never been briefed on this and and so he told him the story and and so they were asking a lot of skeptics like Oberg and and Phil Klaus and people were putting out this thing it was a flame out of an 812 it was this it was all these explanations as to what happened at home on her first base and so that's what Davis was asking Bush he said was it a psychological operation no what's a training film no was it a flame out of an 812 no was it this was at that and then he said it was real it was the real deal and it was massive security that's when he told Eric Davis so Eric Davis has sort of told that story about Bush being told and then the other part of the story he hasn't sort of told you that he also talked to Ford and that Ford had said yes he saw the film as as when he was briefed as president he saw the the whatever film the whole man airfield space film and during his briefing and then Eric Davis asked him well when was the briefing and he said I'm never going to tell you where the briefing was don't even go there and so this is the thing they confirmed that's why they you always hear if you hear help put off for Eric Davis talk they say we have confirmed the hole in my first base film the film actually exists but the most important part and you may not know this story so I'm talking to Bob one time and I said okay so they they had to send the film back step they sent the film back and he told me the whole story about the guys in the car and stuff like that so I say don't Bob you say you got all sorts of stuff you got access yeah [BLANK_AUDIO] no cover up. They let us see whatever we want. We had filmed from NASA. They give us all sorts of stuff. I said, so he sent a haul of his film back. Remember that film you're talking about about the event in Berg where the shoot the missile up and the UFOs take it out. Bob Jacobs. Yeah, I said, yeah, he said, I remember that. I said, did you give that film back? And because he had to analyze by the guy that analyzed the Robertson panel. Sure. UFOs back in the 1950s. Yeah. Analysts. He said, there's one and a million, one and a million at the same UFO. And so I said, you give that film back and goes, no, I don't think so. I said, you can give it back. And he said, no, I think Alan's got it. I'll check. So he cuts back to me. He says, yeah, I almost got it. I said, Alan's got this film. He said, yeah, it's top secret. It's top secret. It has quit in all his name on the on the cover of the gangster. And so I, obviously, at that time, I was working with Angela Joyner. Angela Joyner broke the sequence feels Texas story and got fired and never worked again. Well, just destroyed her life. Absolutely, destroyed her life. Anyway, so I'm working with her on a presidential book, which we never did finish off, but we're working on it. I was down in Texas. And so then I said, Angela, they got the film. Angela, we get to film. We're famous, man. We, this is the film. Everybody's been talking about this film where they take this missile out, where these UFOs and Bob talked about it. It said that the missile was going in these little, like, little white moons were going around it. Right. Around this craft and just, just, he's happening and zapping it. And I said, we got the films. Sanders got the film. And so she was, she was pretty, she was kind of a girl that you went in a bar. You tried to buy her drink. And she was last cut in the style, Dallas Cowboys cheer leaders. Right. So Bob kind of like, you know, like women. And he was, so he, Angela was talking to him and he makes the arrangement for Angela to see this film. But the problem is that Angela has to go by herself. I can't go. His organ. Sandler's got the vault in Oregon. So she has to go by herself. And she's, you know, I don't know if I want to go, you know, by myself to see Sandler at his house and stuff like that. And so she, she doesn't know what to do. So then she's, she's in contact because every is covering the Stevensville story. So James Fox is coming to Stevensville story. And she says, James, we got this film. And now in Sandler's got the film. And James goes, what, what, what says, you got a film. So then James contacts him. So I find the film. And I said, well, you tell James, we had this thing to ourselves. I was like, what the hell do you tell James Fox for? So James Fox. And he goes and deals with Sandler. He talks to Sandler. And Sandler says, yeah, I got the film. And he says, can I see it? I want to put it in my documentary. And he said, no, no, you need some money. And he said, well, much, he said $25,000. He said, okay, hang on. And so you know, I don't know how long it took a month to write or the $25,000. It goes back to Sandler. And he says, okay, I got to $25,000. I want to use it in my film. And he says, no, I talked to my lawyer. My lawyer says, Alan, you're, you're pretty well off. You don't need $25,000. This is going to ruin your life. Do not, do not, do not sell it for $25,000. You're never going to hear the end of it. And so it's saying, he's got, oh, okay. So it's in Fox. And this is in the process. Now I, it should have happened by now, but he goes to Congress. And he tells Congress all the congressional hearings and stuff. He says, there's this film. It's a topsy good film. Alan's Aaron's got this film in his vault. And then the question comes down, Alan Sanders got a classified film. So then they, they can subpoena, they think go back, this is a whole deal. They're trying to get it. So the deal that that Fox, when I heard one interview he did, he said he made the deal with Congress that if they gave him a, he helped him get the film, if they gave him a copy of the, of the, of the film. And I figured, well, how did you get a copy? I'm not in the final thing. So this is the deal that's going on right now. The Congress knows about this film. And Sandler's in a position where he has to give it up because of classified material. He'll get arrested. Yeah. Okay. This is, this is, that's pretty breaking. Um, man, I mean, I will, they should pay him, first of all, they should just give the man some money. Um, I'd be willing to throw up some cash as well. I'll go in with whoever wants to go in with. Dr. James Fox and, and, and, and see whether see what you just just see where it's then. I'll, I'll come to, join back at least six months when I last heard James. Wow. So, so, so when James was visiting, when James was in a skiff, essentially, because I had heard he'd said on this podcast that he met with Congress right after, um, right after the congressional hearing, that came up, I guess. I guess them chasing that thing might have. I'm not sure. I just know that he had made contact with and made this deal with Congress to try to, try to shake this film loose. And it, this a film that everybody knows. And it, of course, pretty clear according to Bob. Oh, yeah. According to Bob. This is like crystal clear. And that was a film that he saw. He always claimed he didn't see the element film, but he did claim he's seen this, this UFO taking, being taken down by, do you know who else claims to have seen it? I think, uh, I think, um, Chris Bledso, because I know that Elisando claims to have seen it too. Yeah. Chris Bledso told me, um, I was asking him about Tim Taylor and his, uh, just sort of his interactions with him and what that was like. Like, you know, what did he show you? Because apparently he showed it to his house and gave him a classified briefing, sort of your eyes only for the Bledso's. And I think Chris and his wife are maybe even just Chris. And then, you know, Chris even caught sort of forwarding some of it. And then they caught him through his email being like, Hey, we said your eyes only. And I said, you know, what did he show you in that briefing? He's like, Oh, photos and videos, I was like, videos. I'm like, did he show you, you know, this video of the, you know, the rocket being taken out. And he goes, yeah. And I go, really? And he goes, yeah, he showed me that. And I go, what else? And then he goes, can't, can't save more. There is a famous video out there of one of these UFOs or a object or whatever it is, taken down one of these rockets that they were shooting up. I've seen it. Who showed this to you? Tyler did. Following one such test launch, Lieutenant Jacobs was unexpectedly told to report to the office of Major Florentz-Mansman. On the screen was the film we had shot. The nose going separate. The chaff flew out in front of it. We saw this as obviously reflections of light, rippling, like that. And then we saw the dummy warhead flying along. It's going between six and eight thousand miles an hour at that point. And it's on the fringes space. And suddenly into that frame, an object flew in chasing the chaff, the warhead, and so on, at the same speed. And in polar orbit, it fired a beam of light at the warhead. The beam of light struck that. The object flipped, shot another beam of light at the dummy warhead. Wonder why I'll shot another beam of light at it. Went down, shot a beam of light, and then flew out the same way to come in. At which time, the dummy warhead fell out of the frame. The lights came on, and Major Mansman said to me, were you guys screwing around up there? And I said, no sir. And he said, what was that? And I said, it looks like we got a UFO. And he said, Lieutenant Jacob's, you are never to speak of this again. It never happened. Yeah, quite a few. Well, I saw things I don't want to talk about. So I don't know. Maybe they showed in the hall. Maybe they showed in the Harlem and thing too. Yeah, they're floating around. Yeah, I got some good stories about Tim Taylor and Chris as well. Because I was involved with Chris before he was famous. I was 2012. I was involved with him. Wow. And his interaction happened in 2008. So that was right around the time. That was after moving 2007, 2007, right, right before the the big housing crash, everything else. Okay, we can get into that. I think that's really interesting. Anything else on the Harlem and stuff you want to go over? Is that much cover? That pretty much that pretty much covers the so we know that the beings don't look like these sort of long-nosed Egyptian things. Exactly. And we know that that footage used in that documentary is also just bunk. Yes, you can if you're if you're editing this, I sent you the photograph. You can actually put the photograph and then take the photograph out of the book. Yeah, and sort of come gather them too. You just go like, wow. That's what I said. Like, I would always believe Bob and I'm thinking, maybe he maybe was pulling my leg the whole time. Do you know what, though? I mean, because also, you know, you never hear about these type of beings, right? You always hear about, especially, especially in around the military. It's out of the grays, the tall whites is another one of them. So I'd imagine they were like probably something. Yeah, it would probably have to be one of those too. Well, there was one more story. I better do it before I forget. There's there's a story that there's always a story about because they do the presidents about the president's brief. Do they know and stuff. So there was a story, Linda Howe tells a story. So Linda Howe and Bobby's to have a huge house in Hollywood. And so she goes there with Larry Bryant, I think. And Bob starts showing her stuff. I'm an anger. I mean, I mean, he's house. Okay. So this is there. And he shows her a document from Richard Nixon and says ahead to the documentary. And it said, thank you for your cooperation on the project we've worked on. So Linda's been telling the story numerous times. And you know, I asked Bob about it and said, well, no, I had this letter. And he sent me this Nixon letter, which was a letter that Nixon sent out when he first became president. Saying, if you got any friends that are, you know, worthy to work on my president, you know, give me references and stuff I got. And then Linda said, no, that's not the document. I saw. And so we had one incident at Eurica Springs where she says, come on, you want to go for dinner? We're going with Bob and his wife. And we're going to get it out of him. And I go, okay, go there. And I'm with Angela Joyner and we're sitting there. And Linda can be ruthless. I mean, she's just going after and I'm going and Bob's got his head down. He's not saying anything. His wife's got her head down. No comment. No denials. Nothing just sitting there. All sheepishly looking. He's just throwing down and she's just going, grab Bob, admit it, Bob. You show me that document. It's time that you open up and admit it. And she's going on. And then I says, I just to lend to Angela. I said, okay, we're gone. I'll leave you Bob to Linda. Linda didn't talk to me for two years. She thought I was, I was, I was thinking that she was making fun of Bob. And I was, I was laughing because she was, she was not giving up. She was, she was going and she was trying to get this. And she thought I was was laughing at her. I said, "No, no, no, no, no, no." were friends again, but it was this letter that was there. And then I found he had died. I thought, I got an email from him and I go, oh, I should talk to him and I went and didn't answer. And then I'm going, this is weird. And then I checked and she had to be died. And his wife died first and then he died. And I'm going, but I got an email from this guy. It was just so weird. And then I knew he had a daughter. He had one daughter, lived in LA. And he always complained that she had problems with her checks over her credit cards and all this stuff. And then I'm thinking, oh, I gotta get his files. 'Cause they're not going to know. You're going to get the files and you're going to get a document like when I sat in Freeman's files. I was the first guy to fat sat in Freeman's files because everybody keeps stuff secret. They got stuff that started and they make agreements with people. And then when you get their files, there's the document. There's all that stuff. And so I went and I was trying to find the files. I still can't find his files. Well, Bob Emeriger's files are maybe around somewhere and they may have this letter from Richard Nixon and it was signed by Richard Nixon and Linda has a photographic memory. So what a document that would be, I'm covered. - So that was the weird thing, but Chris was another one where I got involved almost at the beginning. I didn't know who he was. - Chris Blatt's out there. - Yeah, I got involved. There was an event. I don't know if you know what it was called, the gathering. And this guy out of Larry out of Pennsylvania had a fair bit of money. And he was sort of like a big always helping researchers and stuff like that. He had a big event where he bring in all these researchers. I think there's 50 researchers and their wives into Philadelphia and then he brought us family in. And then it was all these questions. All of these experts are answering his questions in front of the families, it's sort of the status family. See, I'm not, that's like all these researchers here, experts and stuff like that. And so we were in there and that's when I first met him. We were on a bus coming in from the airport and his wife, Vaughan was there and all these people gathered around Chris and they're all asking him questions and I'm like, who is this guy? And they're all just interested and Nana was talking to his wife. She's like, this is Chris's story. I'm not really interested, this is Chris's story. Here's my daughter and his daughter's singing and dancing and she's talking about her daughter all the time. So we say, I'm not with his wife the whole weekend. - Vaughan's a sweetheart, yeah. - And we just walked around with his wife and talk stories. And then so when I was doing the citizens hearing in 2013 and I was lecturing down in Florida. So then I realized that Chris's house is only like five miles off the interstate and I go, hey Chris, I'm going right past your place, kind of stopping to see you. And he says, yeah, sure. So I wanted to see this burning tree, this whole idea that Warner Brothers had a documentary they wanted to do and they wanted to sign and give us a sign. And then the night before they were going to call it off, suddenly the tree starts to burn and then the Chad and Carrie Hughes, the two script writers for Warner Brothers say, that's what we're waiting for. They were going to do the movie and then they were going to do the movie and then it got blocked by Chris keeping saying he won't let you have the end of the movie. And they say, no, you can't do that Chris. You can't have the end of the movie. We control the end of the movie. And Tom DeLong went to put reptilians in the end of his version of Chris Plato's story and Chris kept saying, no, that's not the story. The story is the message from the lady. You're not going to change the story and Holly would just say, no, no, that's not going to sell. And so I wanted to see the tree. So I'm taking the pictures of the burning tree and the circle that was around it. And I actually see the thing where the thing goes, the thing's in the bush and he's, that guy's hand against his oak tree and the oak tree's completely died. When he saw the being that came through the bush after the event happened when he got home, he was leaning against his tree and then he said to the being, okay, you got me. And then the being says, we mean no harm. And then boom, his dog comes in the being disappears and the dog goes racing after this being. So I saw the tree and I saw the burning tree and stuff. So I got it. And then the first paranormal event happened. And Chris doesn't have a book, but he was limited by a number of words. Plus we had a bit of a disagreement of what would happen in this event. So we're sitting there and just why I figured out. - That's about the dog. - Yeah, that's the dog story. So his wife had gone all four of the kids around the house getting haircuts and stuff. We were there by ourselves and he's got three dogs. He's got the big, Nelly was this a big black lab. He had this medium size, nine 57 type dog. And then there's little trauma. So he's three dogs, big, small and middle. And we're sitting there and playing on Facebook and he's telling me the story where he, I was asking about owls. Like I said, hey, you ever any owl experiences? He said, yeah, it was when I was sitting right on top of the antenna. And what the story was, he wasn't talking to his family. But he was talking to all these sea beef and guys driving around on trucks. But he had done cars family for a year because they said, you're not to talk to the kids about this. I don't want to hear about it. And he was like, he didn't know what to talk to. So he's talking to these truckers and he was sitting in this chair and he got up to go to the front door for something and the lightning hit the tower and came down right where this chair was. He would've been dead if he had stayed in the chair. And I said, oh, that was the audience. They were warning you. That's why the owl was on top of the towers to get, get away from that chair. They wanted you to get back. And that's when he started to get back in and he burnt the back half of the house down. Back half of the house was burned down. And that's when he started to get back into UFOs. But so I looked at the tree and we're sitting there and I'm ready to go to Florida. And I say, Chris, I think it's about time to go. And now it's the kisses. Hey, what are you guys doing back in the room? And I look at those three dogs who stand there looking out of the chair. He said, how did you get back in the house? And then I didn't need anything to me. And so he goes to the front door, he's wide open. And he puts him outside and says, weird. Go outside, get outside. That's my side. And then I take my bag and say, well, I'll see you Chris. I'm going to all drop back, I'm on my back. It's great because he's an absolutely beautiful guy. You know, wonderful host in his family. Absolutely. All very receptive and all the talk to me and stuff like that. Yeah, they had me over too. Same deal. So I got in the car and I took off and I get to Florida. And then he says, I opened the email and there's an email from Chris. He said, you know what? Happened twice more after you left. You left and then I was sitting in the living room and the dogs are back in the house. And I went and the front door was wide open. And then I put them back outside again. And I went to the bathroom, I came out to the bathroom, dogs are back on the house again. And I go, well, that area you left the door open. So, yeah, that didn't mean nothing to me. So this is my interpretation of the story. So anyway, I sloughed it off. So I'm going back, had my run the car back to Washington. I'm coming back. I stopped and said, well, I want to look at the tree again and took some more photographs of the tree. And then we're standing on this back patio. Remember this is a comfy patio in the back there. We're standing there and Nellie's right behind us. I remember he turned around and said, what are you chewing on? She had this gourd. And he said, oh, you've chewed it already. And she's chewing on this gourd. She's maybe six, seven feet away from us. And so then he says, you want to go in the house? So I said, yeah, okay. So we go and the dog always wants to get in the house before you. So we start going, Christus here, I'm here. And the dog comes on my left hand side. I got these light colored blue jeans on. And we start going for the door. And the dog runs by me and all I hear is Christus. Nellie, Nellie, what happened to you? And I look blood, she's chewing everywhere. She was chewing up like a hidden artery all over the walls. And he's, I think I've actually had the original pictures of this too, which is interesting because I remember talking to Chris about this and this is a few years ago and he goes, you got to talk to Grant Cameron about this because he was there and then those are your jeans. That's my jeans. And that's where the story comes into me. Yeah, January 12, 2007 at 9.20 AM. So if a dog runs by you, how long does it take you half a second? Take a look at the jeans. It's like I've been standing there for 10 minutes and she blood all over my pants. And so Christus was calling, he says, Chris, bring me a knife, I got to cut off the collar. And then Nellie just quickly, she's lying down, she's very calm, she's just lying there. And the blood's all over the place and the girlfriend's cleaning the blood off the floor and off the walls. And I could see the blood coming down the stairs and I'm thinking, this is weird. And when the door was being left open, it wasn't weird, but it's just weird. I'm going to run into the car and get my camera and I come back and I started photographing where the blood, we just got the rag on top of the dog's head, the rag's all full of blood. And then we're talking and I said, we need to take a vet and then I'm thinking, well, we're talking about it. It would be dead before I get to that. It's losing so much blood because it puts his hand on and then Christus son comes out. So Chris hadn't experienced that. I don't know if he told you about. Yep, Chris. No, well, Chris, the senior told this story about him crawling under the trees to go to this thing. And it had this force field around. He couldn't get close enough to the craft. And he had his gun. And he was going, he was tired of this and he was going close to the craft. And then he backed off and he went away and he said, I'm going back. And he crawled under these trees again towards the craft, it was in this clearing. And he got a certain point. He couldn't get any farther, this force field was there. And then he backed up and he came, he's coming back onto his property. There's a fence, a wire fence. And as he crawled down and as he's got this gun and he looks up in the white beings with the red eyes, there was two of them standing there looking at him. And he said he was never so embarrassed in his life. And that was it. He never touched the gun after that. So he gave all his guns to Chris, to Chris, to Chris Jr. And he had all this. And so Chris Jr. comes out, he's like, he didn't take down Den Laden or something. He comes running out of those with his, I'm like, I'm not grateful. It's like that, whatever, that raccoon and it said, Chris, there's no raccoon. I said, we were standing right here. And then I'm going to get that dog. I'm going to shoot him. And he's got this gun. He's all really wound up. And I said, well, we're right here. If it had been a dog or a dog or anything, a pork upon her, it was right behind us. He never happened. So then me and Chris are looking around where the blood stuck. And we can see it started off the edge of the patio. There's a little two drops of blood. And then it came. And then my interpretation was when it came by me, the whole thing was me. It was like, you weren't impressed, you weren't impressed because I, you weren't impressed with the dogs being led out of the house. Watch this. And so it was like, it was meant for me. And I argued with Chris about this. I said, do you know what happened, Chris? And he said, no, I think it was a shadow people. And I said, shadow people, why don't you shadow people cut the dog? And he said, well, they're evil. And I said, well, they're evil. He said, well, they're dark. I said, well, because they're dark doesn't mean they're evil. And I said, you know what? I think happened, Chris. I said, did we let not dogs out of the house when I was there? And I was impressed. So they said, you want to see this? Watch this. Because you see my pants. There was no blood on anybody else. Thanks for watching. all over my pants, and it was, they wanted this in the movie. Because it's like, they all idea of a movie. You need good and bad. You need up and down in a movie. - This goes back to the wild theory again. - Yeah, if you have like God, and with this popcorn and movie in a second, I love you, I love you, I love you. And God says, I gotta go watch the next story and watch Star Wars. This is a good, I wanna see some drama. If you want the off and down, it's you always need the off and down. So I said, they want this in the movie. They want this, and he said, no, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I said, yeah, I think they want this story. They want the burning tree. They're doing all this crazy stuff where he's gonna go out. I can't believe this happened. And then he, but two weeks later, he phones me up. And he says, he still got those photos. Warner Brothers would like to photograph such a thing. - Well, I told you. - Before jumping there, like the, he gets the blood to stop. - Yeah, he gets the blood to stop. He puts his hand on it. - He pulls his hand up with this rag. And then Nelly just gets up, and she just goes racing around the house. So I figured, oh wow, what's gonna happen next? I go, got my camera and I chase after Nelly. She goes around the house to the front door. She barks one time at the front door and then goes racing off into the next door, neighbor's yard barking is if she's chasing something. And I thought, well, that's kind of weird, but there was nothing really happened. And that, that when Chris said, he said that there was a wound, but we didn't check the wound when I was there. He, him and his father checked the wound that night. And they couldn't find a wound on that. - That's what he told me, yeah. - Yeah, you couldn't find the wound on that. So that, he said, at that point, he could heal people. And he was able to heal people. And then comes the really bizarre stuff. So we're, I only meet him a few times. And he can't talk to me because I'm a can. He can't do stuff by email and stuff like that. So I meet him at an experienced conference in Maine. So he's there and Chris is like some of my friends, they don't go to the lectures. They just sit in the hallway and talk to people. So Chris is in the hallway talking to people. So when one comes up to him, there's twins. These women are twins, they're in their 70s, two women. One woman says, my sister here, she had a stroke. She can't hear. She's, she's totally deaf. Can you heal her? And Chris is standing in front of the hotel. Tim Taylor says, if you're in front of the hotel, and someone needs a healing, go ahead and do it. No way. Yeah. So he says, wait, wait a second. Hold on a second. This is so, this is so strange. So he's standing in front of the hotel. He's these twins come up. She says, my sister had a stroke. She can't hear. And in that minute, he gets a text from Tim Taylor. And this is, he's alone here with, with these women. Anybody else? I'm pretty, but why they may have been other people, but not in the conversation. And he's saying Tim Taylor texted him. Well, he showed me the text. He showed you the text. He showed me the text, like Tim Taylor, and go, and I'm thinking, what's Tim's psyche? Like, what's going on? What's Tim's this weird guy? But so then he tells me a story and he puts his hands on her ears, and he says, in the name of Jesus, like I've already said, in the name of Jesus, I heal you or whatever. And this woman goes into my lecture. And she comes out of the lecture, and she says, I can hear, I can hear everything's done. I can hear. And I said, that's pretty cool, Chris. So then these two girls, one is Mike Collins, former girlfriend, and there's a woman out of New Jersey who came to me after this event took place. So they're going to ask Chris for a healing. So at lunchtime, all the people from the conference go to this restaurant across the street. So I'm with them, and I, these two girls are sitting beside Chris, and I realize they're going to ask for this healing. So there's me, and Mike might have still been there, Mike Clown might have still been there, but I'm not sure. But anyway, I said, I figured it's a private moment they want to do this. So I said, OK, Chris, I'm going back to the lectures. I'll catch you later. See, girls, and I took off. Scrokes back, and she's destroyed. She's like, holy, can't believe what happened. And I talked to her maybe four, five days ago again. And I said, can you repeat this story, what happened in the restaurant? She said, it was like a third person who's in the conversation. She says, it was like, and Taylor, and Taylor, and Taylor, this one, and she's going. And she said, I looked at the man. I couldn't read the messages or whatever. And I said, that is the story I heard. And then the part of the story that you have to ask Chris, that they brought up, and this was the fact that the phone was a transmitter phone, that he had been given this phone. I don't know if that's true. Because you remember that-- So it was tapped. Well, it was a transmitter phone. It was everything that he did was being recorded by somebody. Right. And I don't know that part of the story. She might have been given it on by Sam. As soon as I heard that story, I went, that's how-- That's the idea. Yeah, he isn't psychic at all. He's just tapping his phone. And that's what Chris had said. I remember the story, when Tim Taylor comes, and he said, you guys have ruined my life. What are you doing on my property? My family won't talk to me. They're trying to take my kids away from me. You've ruined my life. What are you doing here in the Tim Taylor system? Well, Chris, it appears they like you. They're all around you, Chris. They don't like us. They don't talk to us. So we're here to find out what are they telling you. And what's the best way to engage somebody is to follow what they're doing. And that's what happened when I met Tim Taylor. So just be-- I guess to be later than that. That summer, I reached a business guy out of New Jersey's. Has a cottage, or maybe built a log cabin in big log cabin in Pennsylvania. So I get invited, and the only guy with no money there, and we're there, and Chris is there. And he's showing these guys his contract from Warner Brothers again. And it has all sorts of money in this thing. And they're saying, no, don't take royalty. They're coming at any money, take money up front, and stuff like this. And he keeps saying, well, I want to control the ends of the movie and all this stuff. And they were talking to him, and suddenly Tim Taylor shows up, and it was my friend that invited him. So my friend is a big business guy at Winnipeg. And he was at a conference. Same thing. He doesn't go to lectures. He just sits in the hall with talks with people. So he ran into Tim Taylor. And they got to be friends, and they were talking and stuff. And then he says to Tim Taylor, he says, hey, we're going on a UFO dig. You want to come along? And Tim goes, yeah, yeah, sure. They go to the Gerald Anderson's case. So Gerald Anderson is there in Tim Taylor interviews him. And they're pulling up this medal. Now he won't talk. He said, Tim Taylor said, when he got some of this mail, he said, this is the real deal. And he was all excited. He's taken some of this material back with him. So that's where this whole thing comes about the gifting field. Whether he's at the gifting field, or whether he was at another UFO crash, or whatever. So that's how my friend knew him. So he shows up at the-- What year was that? It would be 2013, 2013, 2013, 2014. So I'm not a Christian 2000. It would be at least 2013. And so anyway, so Tim comes to this meeting. And he owns the only there for a while. He's there morning, afternoon, evening, suddenly disappears. I don't think he stays one night at the cabin. He's going back, he's flying. And according to Chris, he only comes to see Chris. He wanted to get Chris's details, because he wanted to meet up with Chris. So he was there. And I told people, my conversation was with him. I said, if I hadn't known who he was, I would have paid attention. I just knew he was a NASA guy. And now that you know who he is, you're not going to get to the opportunity. Because it says what he does. So I had the download experience. He's got 40 patents. He has this protocol where he doesn't drink. He doesn't do any kind of stuff. He sleeps for eight hours. He gets up. He goes to bed for an hour again. And then he gets up. And then he takes like a glass of water. And he sits on the porch in the sign. And he starts drinking the water. And then he's in contact with the-- oh, he called him as the beings or wherever. And I remember talking about it, because I had the download. I guess I told him about my download experience. So he told me about the event. He woke up in the morning with this idea in his head. And he said, the last thing I remember the night before was a hooded figure standing at the end of the bit. And I said, oh, really? Can you see its face? And he said, I can see its face. And he can never see its face. So I said, oh, you go to L.A. Because he works with cancer kids. He's all medical stuff. All the inventions get to all the-- And it's all biomedical stuff. It has to do with the spine, too, which is interesting. So he has the cancer kids in Miami and in L.A. So I said, well, you go to L.A. all the time, you should get regressed by Ivonne Smith and find out who the hooded figure being is. And he said, yeah, I may try that out. And I asked Ivonne a number of times. She said, no, he never showed up. And he says, when did he think of this? And I think I sent you this photo. He sends me this searchman's photo. These two guys on a painting. And these two guys are flying through space, on this painting. And they look like they have a jammer's on. There's no signature of the artist or anything like that. And he says, we can see this. There you go. No idea. Two guys fly through space, I don't know. And I go, he says, wait a minute, yes. So I don't know. The ball's going down on a tunnel. I don't know, Tim, I know he should-- And then he shows me another one, this eclipse thing. And I still-- I know what you're talking about. It's like a screen on the outside of a building. And it has all this outer space photographs and sort of like the planets and galaxies and stuff like that. And I go, I still don't know what you're talking about. He shows me this car on top of a parkade. So there's two buildings. And this is 999 Suppolvita Avenue. I think this is all still intact. It's right outside of LAX. You can see they run ways from LAX from there. 999 Suppolvita Avenue. There's two buildings, and there's a parkade in between. So this is on the top floor of the parkade. And it's like a 56, 57 Chevy sitting on top of this parkade. Sort of all by itself. And then he shows me you can see something in the back seat. You see that in the back seat there? And I said, yeah, he said, do you know what it says? It's just, no, it's the same. I wish I could travel through time and space to be with you. And I go, that's what it says. Yeah, that's what it says. And so I go, I still don't know what you're talking about. And then he says, do you know what this is? I said, no, I don't know what it is. He says, this is the old, he's their car building. I said, Tim, I still don't know what you're talking about. How it is is interesting. And then he says, this is for the-- I don't remember exactly what the wording was. He said, this is where the jump room was, or this is, supposedly where the jump room was, or I don't know if he clarified that this is for sure. And I go, really? Can I see the photographs again? And he shows me the first one with the picture of these two guys flying through space. And he says, you know where that one is? And I said, no, where is it? So the right side, the elevator. And I said, that's right, the right side, the elevator. So of course, I thought this is like a garbage story. Like, I mean, nobody would believe this, Obama going to Mars and all this stuff. I go, sure. I need to start, sure. So I get Andy Bassi, I go on a phone, I'm up to say, hey, Andy, I just got somebody showing me some photographs from the Sepulveda Avenue there. We're in the front building or the back building. And he said, I was a young kid. I don't remember if I was in the front building or back building. And now I'm thinking, let me just start, sure. And then it was years later, I'm sitting there, I'm going, what the heck was Tim Taylor doing there? If this is a garbage story, why is this high level guy doing at this building? There must be some truth to the story. And then you hear the stories that Jesse tells about the, the, him, it towns him around stuff. The succession with, with time travel and stuff like that. And he shows me in there, I'm going, holy cow. Part of the time travel club or whatever. And then he had that thing. And then the other thing that he gave to me during that conversation was he, what I do is you don't want to watch UFOs. I mean, forget it. We've got 250,000 UFOs on a database. We don't need another 10 or 20,000. We don't need that. We need to talk to people who are actually interacting with the intelligence. So that's what Tim Taylor does. That's why he contacted Tim. Why would you not? Well, he contacted Chris. I know for a fact, he's in contact with Whitley Strieber. I know he's in contact with Charles Hall. In fact, he went to Charles Hall. Hall's place over 15 years, yearly. And he would bring high level officials over to his house for dinner. One of them was named by Mary Teresa, Charles Hall's wife, David King, this guy. And I mean, if you ever go look this guy up, make sure you're not logged in to LinkedIn, because he don't want him knowing that you're looking at his stuff, it is a mountain of clearances. This guy's been every department in the DOD. And so, because at first I'm like, oh, this Tim Taylor guy, maybe he's just a fan. Maybe he's like, somebody who had his own experience and is just trying to figure out what happened. But then you see these other highly cleared people that he's bringing along with. And that's where I go, wait a second. This isn't just some dinner for schmucks or some personal journey. This is 100% him trying to recon part of the phenomenon that clearly the government is in the dark on. Yeah, he knows all the connections. He knows who to talk to in various agencies. Yeah, so in Tom Dolong went there, and he took the photograph at the NASA map carpet. And I'm thinking, I wonder if he's talking to Tim Taylor when he was there. And that's a whole thing where he knows all the connections. And when this game back to this conversation I was having with him, then I know that he, you want to deal with experiences. That's what you want to do. And he said, oh, I think I'm dealing with a girl. I think she lives near where he used to live. Where was that? It's just a time-back round tubba. He said, that's like 30 miles from where I live. And he said, you want to talk to her? I said, yeah. I'm on Tim Taylor's cellphone. He points her up. I go, Connie, Tim gave me her name here. She started talking to me about five years old. She tells me the story. And I was like, can I contact you later? I'd like to follow up on your story or whatever. And she'd now moved to Florida. And I'm on Tim Taylor's cellphone. There's two women. But the one woman who wasn't home or something, but I talked to this one woman. And that was where I got the notion that that's what you got to do. You got to talk to these people. And what she was doing is she was, for Tim, she had a log sheet and she had all these visions. She said it was like she's on the internet 24/7. And she'd give me these things. Like the one she gave me was 16 guys underground in a coal mine in Utah. And the coal mine collapses. And they send in three rescuers to rescue them. And they die. The collapses, again, up above. And these guys die in the call of the rescue. And she's down with the 16 guys below as they die. And then she has the one she describes. And I found it. And she was she was crying. And she was like upset. Like I found it. It was a true story. And then the other one she had, and she, and I found the actual photograph looked exactly what she was describing. She says there's an upper rail in China. There's two trains and they're on the same track. They're on the same track. And the one they've hit and the one train is hanging off the track. And there's a mountain in the background. And I found the photograph. And then she told the beings at one time. She said, I can't take it. Stop. I can't take it anymore. Stop doing this to me. And she said to stop for a buddy here. And then she said, I guess this is my role. OK, let it go. But he was watching her. She was recording all the visions she had, all the experiences her son was having, and stuff like that. And he was logging. Same as he was doing. And there's something valuable there for him. And he was logging that stuff. And that's what he realized. That's what I say. If you want to understand, you got to talk to people who weren't talking to the intelligence. Those are people who got to talk to you. Those are the people who, you could sort them out and disbelieve them. Yeah, sure. But you still got it. You got a message. Just because, as I mentioned before, I actually had, like, got into the channeling thing. And I got this guy's name is Andrew Davis from 1847, in 1848, who was channeling. And there's always a story that, oh, channelers are all different. The same as you see, experiences. Oh, it's just anecdotal. They're all telling different stories, wherever. And you start logging them together, and you realize that 37% of people who claim non-human intelligence connection have had a nervous experiences, 80% have had an out-of-body experience, 90% have had paranormal experiences. 40% of them say at one point during the experience, they knew they answered everything in the universe. And you start seeing these patterns. And you start getting the people who are actually getting the connection. They've had experiences, yeah. So I started doing that, and I realized that's what Tim was doing. And Chris would be one of his top contacts. One of many, I'm sure. Of that, that you're giving him. Then he had to pull out the background, but the final contact I had with him. With Tim Taylor? With Tim Taylor. He fooled me from Huntsville. And he was in a restaurant. So I really couldn't hear him very well, what he was talking about, where I just remember the one story. It gives you comfort if you tell your story to your whatever your friends, relatives, whatever, and they discount you. Because Tim says, "You know, my daughter, she's giving me her time with this. She's just dad. You got to quit doing this. This is embarrassing guy. What are you doing?" And she's giving him all this stuff. And then Tim says to her, "Just remember where the Lexus comes from." And that showed her up. Because he didn't have a lot of money on it. He didn't make a lot of money. But I watched protocols and same as the protocols. You take a look at his protocols. You ever try that? You ever try his protocols? I didn't try his protocols. You should try them. But the other one's Gary Nolan. If you're Gary Nolan, you talk to Gary Nolan about his protocols because I knew he was doing the same thing. So I said to Gary, I said, "Can I quote you? Can you give me a quote on how this works?" Because he, the quote he originally had, he said, "I don't know how it works." He said, "I don't know if there's little elves in my head or anything." And he said, "But I know how to make it work." And he does the whole thing. You go through all the process. You work through the whole thing and you try to figure it out. And then you put the question beside the bed. And he said the next morning or within the next couple of days, the answer is this knowing. The answer is in my head. And so I asked him. He said, "Yeah, it's like an FBI thing. I get strings going between all the different things." And that's what you find in indentions. When I did a book, I'm inspired talking about indentions. I take the hologram and the laser. Both these guys were working on it. They couldn't figure this thing out or whatever. And then what you do is you shut down the left brain, the rational analytical brain. Like I did when I was watching, when I had the download experience, I was watching crop circles which I wasn't interested in. The left brain shuts down. The signal suddenly you pick up the signal because there's no noise in the signal you pick it up. And both the guys that were, the hologram by Gabor and Towns who got the laser, they're both sitting on park benches. And one guy was watching people play tennis and the other guy was sitting there waiting for the restaurant to open. And they were quiet. They were thinking about their work and I was like, boom, it comes in their head. And they came up and run back to the lab and quickly right to the shower thoughts. Yeah. And that's the thing. You're there just kind of letting your mind drift in this liminal state. And like you say, if you shut down the incoming noise, then you're amplifying, you know, your receptor for this type of signal or at least your connection to this cloud. So I wrote a book called Contact Modalities, we were looked at 70 different modalities. And when you talk about a modality for people listening, what do you mean by contact modalities? Like, give me, give me some like some of the more fundamental. Ray Hernandez had the original, he's the one that came up with the term. So when I was on that lecture thing going down to Florida, Ray Hernandez had, his wife was seeing UFOs all the time. And he said, Hey, crazy, that's religious and whatever, he's like, it's crazy, you know, and then one time he's, he kept repeating this and these big, huge ships with stained glass windows in them and stuff. And he said, he's standing outside and he said, I'm waiting for a guide, he's an IRS attorney. So guys bring him these tickets and he's going to write him a thing to get him out of court or whatever. So these guys can be 15 minutes, he's sitting there as well, not to do him as well. So if I can bring in those ships at my wife's seeing, he says, okay, if my wife is seeing ships, let's come down and prove it to me and he's looking around and go, 15 minutes goes, I knew that was going to happen. Oh, it's like, he said, Wembley Stadium over the next time you were supposed to go, Oh, my God, this is for real. And he calls this daughter, they come down, come down and she comes out and they're standing there. And then the guy comes with the car and the guy doesn't believe it. And he says, what are you crazy? And then he says, and he says to them, he says, he could better show them something better. They don't believe this. And all of a sudden the lights start going, going, going, and if people got in the car and it take off. So he comes with the, he looks up UFOs and consciousness. So of course, my name pops up and he says, you can communicate with these things. You can actually pull them in. And I said, well, I know that and he said, I need to know what's going on. I'm going nuts. I'm only sleeping two hours a day. I'm reading books on nearest experiences and quantum physics and he's just talking a mile a minute. And I said, well, I'm going to be in Florida. I'm giving a lecture on consciousness and you can come to lecture and we'll have a talk. So he said, okay, so he takes us wife because wife has no interest. He says, we're going to go on a second honeymoon, we're going to go, and he comes and he says, to his wife, tell him, tell him what we saw. So it's how it took her and what's going on? You guys you talk too much about your hotel. And so we did tell the story and then two days later he's in a traffic jam in Miami completely stall nobody's moving and he's sitting there listening to a MPR broadcast on a guy doing body fat is making art out of body fat is going that's kind of weird and also boom he's out of his body and something up and whatever some non local reality and this wheel spinning around and there's these images. There's remote viewing psychic phenomena and near that experience is medium ship all this UFOs all this stuff in the wheel of certain spinning and the in the middle is it gets the idea of consciousness in the middle and the being say to him Ray you got to quit parsing this stuff. It's all the same thing. So that's my version of how this works is is that you are at a level that we're in the bottom of the water. So you may you've done out of body experience. Somebody may do meditation. Have an experience during meditation. So you're in the bottom of the ocean and it's dark. You can't see anything. So you have an out of body experience. You sort of float up into the water and you go holy cow. There's something else here. And you see this fish and go. What level am I on and the fish goes. You're not at any level. You're in the water. You eat it. And it's like there's no there's no levels. It's just you go that closer you get to the light the more you can see and certain people can get high on the letter in the other interesting. And so this is what we had this contact modality. You got to be able to shut down the left brain. The little voice at times. Yeah. And once you can do that and some people like trans channels can do it. It's like music. Some people are good at it. That's really good. Yeah. Maybe that's why like well, that's how you also enter these flow states. Right. Yeah. This this creative state of mind. We're like, you know, the you're able to navigate your thoughts more clearly. But also late at night seems to be another one or some people even, you know, will take medication or or, you know, substance to get themselves to shut off part of their brain so they can. So they don't have anxiety or so they don't think of all the tasks that they have to do at work. And it's in those times when those things are shut down that you're just kind of like in this liminal receiving state where you can have these ideas. And that's, you know, I've got tattooed here. So it's carpey knocked them like I mean, this is I, I know, I know myself by now that at night when the rest of the world is kind of sleeping and when I'm just about to go to bed, it's in those moments when you're in and out of consciousness, sort of floating to and your mind's just kind of freely wandering that you'll get these quote unquote downloads and the best piece of advice that I can tell anybody is just keep a bedside notepad. Exactly. And write it down because I guarantee you will forget it. You will forget it. You'll remember 1% of what you're, you know, I had two major ones. I had one in 2012 called Andrews. And then I had one very long one in 2016. So I live in Winnipeg. It's pretty cold. This is fall. It's not midwinter. I miss cold. And I do a lot of walking. I walk about four hours a day. So I'm walking downtown. So it's about six miles. It's quite a walk. And I'm stuck at McDonald's for coffee, two miles into the walk and I leave in and all of a sudden it comes in its like this knowing you know, if you had the experience, you know, get the pan out. I had the pan and I pulled it out and it was like this knowing I write this down, write this down. And it was the whole thing was 24 things. And it was like, you think it's this and I've been told us numerous times. everything that what you think it is it's exactly opposite what you think it is right so it's the idea is it is it is it one? Is it physical separate now is it is it consciousness is it is it is it random or is it pattern is it this you think it's this it's actually this you think it's this it's actually and see opposite thing so I'm writing it down I get about 14 of them when I take my glove off and I'm writing this stuff down put it back in my pocket I start to walk I think about 10 steps and that feeling comes when we're again oh here comes again I get the pen out and I start to write and lots times I'll be like in a shower or I'll I try meditation so I'm in meditation and I heard people make this joke before you're sitting in meditation and and you're you're sitting there and all of a sudden you're about 30 seconds in all of a sudden an idea comes and you go can you come back another time it's even a story about I'm trying to do this famous musician that the woman eat pray love she tells the story where she says where she's there on what for 10 years on the best I don't know why there was book was and she says the book just wasn't coming and I just couldn't figure it out and I remember there was a musician I can't remember the guy's name was he's driving down the LA freeway and and and suddenly the song comes and and it's beautiful song and he goes can you not see him on the freeway if you want me to get this song you think he coming a better time otherwise he told him go to somebody he mean this other musician go to this musician and give it to him and and then so the woman that were eat pray love she says so I tried so I go okay I'm here I just want to let you know what you show up or not I showed up for work now if you're going to help me you can help me but I'm here I'm doing my job and then she ends right to this book that was like one of the biggest selling books in all times incredible and so you start to when you start to look you start to realize these patterns yeah the flow of the flow state of this you know there's also Robbie Williams are you familiar yeah he's he's an experiencer as well you know talked about this on I think a weaponized podcast with George and Jeremy I've spoken to him as well we remain in contact and I'd love to have him on the show one day but he's got this incredible story of him writing a song now forget which song it was but he's writing a song I think in his LA home and as he's writing this song you know this orb suddenly starts to appear this golden orb over the horizon as he's singing the song and as soon as he's done the song the orb goes away and he does it again and it comes back and it goes away and he does it again it comes back and he said hold on I must be crazy so he like drags his wife in and she sees it and he drags friends in and they see it and there's this other phenomenon that happens afterwards but point is there a lot there are a lot of artists who experience not only these type of downloads which leads to you know a bestselling book or a bestsell or a hit song but also have interactions with entities whether it's in an astral state or in a physical state or they see a craft even you know go so far as John Lennon one of the most inspired and or inspiring artists of our generation like this guy was he was a game changer in terms of how people lived you know he had his whole utopia sort of movement that he had with Yoko but also you know the song you know imagine and like he this guy kind of changed the world and for him to say that he experienced things I mean makes perfect sense over here up there I saw a UFO and it went down the river turn right at the United Nations turn left and then down the river it wasn't a helicopter it wasn't a balloon and it was so near then you look what sort of round white and silent and silent and it looked dark like black or gray in the middle and had white lights just look like light bulbs you know just going off on off on off on bling bling bling bling around the bell bottom and on top was a red light is there another are there another few names that come to mind in terms of artists in history that we might know that may have had these experiences I've heard of Elvis I've heard maybe I can tell you I can tell you a couple really wild the wild story so the what would you like to take a break before or let's give another 15 minutes sure yeah so anyway this how I did music my father ice out mix the joke my father would be rolling over in his grave amaze that his son ever wrote a book on music because my sisters are all musical my mother was a church organist for 40 years my father built theater organs he could sort of play but he wasn't you know my mother was major organist my sisters were played in a group and so and me this and this for six months and then full of my own as a waste of time so anyway I get a phone call this is about 2014 from no none other than Chris busso and he said now I know he's a real deal I mean I had this experience with him with the dog so he says I got a message for you from the guardians I said really you got a message from me from the guardians really he said yeah I said what would they cut to say he said grant they want you to know the messages and music I said well Chris you may be talking to the wrong guy I'm ready to talk guys listen to podcasts I have no interest in music my father every's interest in music I have no interest in music I don't listen to music and he said wow you should listen song you should listen to be a cashmere but let's up and I go whatever Chris and then he's close and then he's and then you how they drag you in you start to realize is this random or is this you being dragged in they said and the other one you should listen to is after the goal rush by Neil Young and I go Neil Young is involved with this thing and he goes yeah I said I live in Chris Chris I live in Winnipeg it's the one city in Canada where nobody wants to visit nobody it's a nowhere Neil Young grew up in Winnipeg I said you're telling me he's involved in this thing he said yeah then we check this out and so I checked the lyrics of after the goal rush and basically after the goal rush is he's sitting in a bombed up basement and everything's falling apart the whole world's coming to collapsing and the silver seeds come and take the chosen ones to another planet and the chosen ones is a bond smith's word for the for the experiences the chosen and and when I saw that I go holy cow and then suddenly I realized that all these other people flaming lips saying after the goal rush flaming lips the main guy on flaming lips you can see videos of him talking about his experiences at the drive-in movie theater and he's had millions of UFO experiences and stuff like this was a full blown experience there and then I realized that Patty Smith the first woman to sing on society in it live she believes she's from another planet which there's probably in my book I think I name 12 people John Denver believes he's from the the constellation Lyra and I started listing all these experiences should sang after the goal rush Dolly Parton who has done a lot of talking about UFOs and stuff like that and I'm going these people are all singing the same song like what is going on here and so I started gathering all the all these songs and I came across piles and piles like people like the Eagles the Eagles yeah or what's a guy that had the child problem Michael Jackson Michael Jackson actually said he did he was afraid to put his name on albums because he said he didn't write any of this stuff or Yoko Ono saying it's like channeling at the Beatles were channeling their channeling material and then you have these synchronicity cases and if you watch the Beatles and that documentary also just kind of riffing and creating you can't argue that there's something else in that room you know these are things that we're going to be singing for for for a hundred years or more yeah because they didn't really get along with each other now very different especially with Yoko there and you got into the studio then it was it was they started to flow absolutely and and and a lot of musicians will talk about the fact that that's a flow state that when they're there they don't realize what's going on that they're just playing the the music or the guy that came up with the drum solo the famous drum solo was called he started a lot of them started he started surf rock and she wipe out the song wipe out oh yeah he wrote their song wipe out and it was stolen by the ventures he's he said he stole song from me but anyway he and then you get the the guy who is well I wouldn't I can see I'm not musicians so I don't remember these people's names but I give you a couple bizarre synchronicity stories they're one of the I like synchronicity stories so the one involves Yoko Ono and John Lennon so Yoko Ono wakes up one morning in the this liminal state and she's got the song in her head and they they believe that they were the reincarnation of Robert and Liz Browning there's one of their albums that actually has them dressed up as Robert and Liz with Browning poets from the the last century and so she this this song was Liz with Browning and she's she phones up John and he's in the he's in the Bahamas and she says John I got this song and she actually puts on one element it's like well he's singing oh my god she's singing this song it's this screechy voice you know and she says John isn't isn't that cool John and he said yeah that's cool she said well you should write one from a Robert Browning and we'll put them together and he said okay he said you you send me the stuff because then in those days as soon just before he died there's no you know special delivery stuff you know it's like you gotta mail it to me so she's gonna send it around playing or whatever it's gonna take a couple of days to get to him or whatever and he says okay send it to me and then he phones her back in the afternoon and he says you're never gonna leave it happen I was watching this movie and this song comes one of a Robert Browning's poems poems comes out and this guy's it's in this movie and so he says hey so write the song so he put the song together it's the last song they ever composed they made it on a music box in the bedroom he was shot a couple days later and they she put it out on an album after he died it was the last song they ever created but it's his bizarre synchronicity or the other one and I'm not gonna remember the guy's name but anyway it's it's Bono so he's a Bono from YouTube he's in he's in um in uh wembley stadium and he can't sleep so a lot of musicians you'll hear the story they can't sleep so he's he's there and he can't sleep and he's playing this movie uh mystery woman um now they said it's a country mastering guy see I'm not gonna remember his name but anyway he he's singing the song not Willie Nelson no no he's singing this song in the movie mystery woman I think was the song he sang but he's singing this song and so uh Bono's listening to the song we're gonna repeat over and over you know all night he's sitting now so he goes to sleep and he wakes up with his song roarbison so he wakes up with his song and he goes hey this sounds like a roarbison song so he goes to he goes to the practice at wembley stadium and he's telling the other guy says yeah okay his song last night I couldn't sleep I went to sleep and it's like sounds like a roarbison just go play it so he plays this song and then they go yeah it does sound like roarbison so then they they they they play the concert and he goes back in he wants to get this composition down he's go back in and he's knock on the door and security guy says uh somebody's here to see you who's it roarbison you came from america and I see your concert he goes roarbison's here and he says yeah so roarbison walks in he says you guys are fantastic I'd like to play with you sometime do you think you have a song we could play in Bono's yeah I think I kind of got one this morning he can't make that stuff up it's just so weird and how many musicians I actually believe that they're like the oh there are musicians that also that I've talked to recently I think it was Dan Cleary who hit me out Dan Cleary who's also you know researcher but he was also touring with the band who's you know playing music playing guitar and he would say that you know sometimes they would just know they were with the other band members and they'd spent so much time together in that they were all on this frequency that there was like a telepathic communication between them all knowing where they're gonna go with the song and you see this with jazz musicians who often riff they're just playing you know they're playing riffs they're like hey do whatever you want and they're following each other but there's this beautiful meld that wouldn't happen if you were to sit there and try and structure it yeah it has to happen that way for it to be like a genius level for it to be you know I wrote down something people didn't know I went and looked and now because I would do this big thing I'm big into the right brain lock brain thing that the lock brain is is creating the signal signal noise and the right brain is the one that's in contact with the universe so anyway I wrote down how many musicians can't read music like literally all yeah and if you take jazz and if you take blues that was never written down yeah it's it's this whole idea is the worst the song coming from and if you try to analyze it well as to go here this beat and that sort of stuff it's this thing of of waiting for it to come and all these musicians like like McCartney McCartney says I've never played a scale nor do I ever intend to play a scale it'll ruin my my ability to play yeah and they have no ability to write music they would and Jackie Gleason had a band he had 20 albums he had a band mom and he he could know that I've listened to his music it's great and he couldn't play but he he gives he could he could he could he could play by ear but he could tell in a in even though he had no background he could tell if somebody in the in the in the orchestra was off yeah and stuff like that where he just look at Robert Johnson I mean the devil yeah yeah yeah I list me in the devil the crossroads like all of that does seem like it was channeled as well like I mean he literally talks about selling his soul to the devil and all that stuff yeah I list in the back of the book I list all the songs that were created in under five minutes there's one of the famous musicians said if it comes in more than five minutes it ain't worth writing down right and this idea or how many how many songs came in dreams like the famous one is is yesterday by by McCartney where he wakes up in the middle of the night and he's there's a piano in the room and he goes holy cow and he sort of gets the the the chords whatever it is and then he goes around for a month if you're the song because he figured someone had sung it sang it before and he said it's three the other one he had was I think was called no regrets and he came and he was playing he dreamed he was playing with the Rolling Stones and he woke up he says it has a great song we played the Rolling Stones and goes Rolling Stones ever played that song and then he said I never told me Jagger because he want royalties and so these guys knew this this kind of stuff what happened and and and the one the one of the big ones now is Chris Martin from Coldplay right you ever hear him watch some of the videos where he talks about how he how he gets how he gets a tune he says it's from God and yeah and he talks about the some of his famous ones the orange one was the funny one where he says he says the song came to me was yellow yellow yellow he plays the song and then the other guys are in watching the soccer game and he goes in he says hey look at the song I just got niggle that's pretty cool niggle back to soccer and these songs have like 500 million to hits on him and all his stuff all came the same thing channel you talk about the fact you can't read or write music at all and he can't explain where it's from yeah you know magicians get this a lot too as a practicing magician I've I've put a lot of work into this actually I have a talk about this as well about the difference between sort of a you know magic with a C magic with a K magic with a J but essentially the idea that during these flow states there's three ingredients that we have when so basically magicians all around the world we we get to witness real miracles but we won't tell the audience when they happen because that's what the trick supposed to look like but there are times during a magic performance when a you're in this flow state you can do no wrong and that's what I mean by flow states like yeah everything it feels like is precognitive you can just deal with anything that there's a there's a knowing that everything's going to be okay no matter what you do like you and you'll even throw wrenches in the process to see how you deal with them during performances you'll try to trip yourself up just to see if you can like get out of it it's that type of and then with that comes this confidence this this stupid confidence where you have no business being this confident there's there's no reason for you to be the sure about something that has a probability and the third ingredient is this pigmailian effect where the people in the audience believe that you can accomplish these things right and they have this core belief that you can do it and because that you're feeding off that and so when you put all these things together magicians will and I have plenty of stories I wrote I put this out to a bunch of magicians like thousands of magicians and I got 200 in a day I got 200 responses I asked them describe a miracle that happened during performance and tell me what state of mind you were in when this happened and it was small group of people end of the night flow state I was on fire and I just went for it because my gimmick or the thing that was going to make the trick work malfunctioned and I had to just wing it and I just went for it and now they're guessing people's pass codes, they're guessing people's names, they're, you know, I've had stories of like, oh, think of this person you haven't thought of in years and think of something you'd like to tell them and as he's doing this, that person texts him like incredible, like, almost synthetic synchronicities, they're made by the magician because he's in the salter's state and he's playing with probability, that's the means, that's the currency. And so we have these things happen over and over and over again and we don't tell the audience that they happen. If I guess your pass code, you know, let's say every, my trick malfunctioned and now I have to just kind of, and I actually get it, I'm not going to go, oh my god, I'm going to go to the right and they're going to go, oh my god, but then I'm going to go see my magician buddies and go, you will not believe what freaking happened last night. It was insane. And so magicians tell each other these stories all the time and when I put that out there, I started getting responses from comedians and so comedians on stage, they do crowd work. And when they're in the throes of being in the flow state, they'll all of a sudden start going, you there, you look like a plumber, well, I am a plumber and then they'll start doing these like crazy and they can't explain that either. And so it seems like artists of all different genres brush up against this when mastery starts to be attained, even writers like yourself. So when you've been doing something long enough, you get into a loose state, even fighters. Yeah. We'll say they don't know if it's deduction or if it's pre-cognitive, like the punch is being thrown where they can just kind of see them happening in slow motion. And I feel like everybody who attains that level of practice in whatever vocation they have or whatever discipline they're training, eventually you hit that state. And in that state, you can start to interact with something else. And you know, your work with music and musicians, I mean, just really shines a light on this particular phenomenon. Do you think that this can be conditioned, like, can you get better at this, you think? I think we're starting to learn. As you were talking, I was thinking, like, now we've got these developments of the, whether you follow this telepathy tape thing. Yes, right. And I was dealing with her before it all became famous. And this is this whole idea that these kids do way more than just telepathy. These kids can speak foreign languages. They claim they're on this hill interacting with each other and stuff. So we're starting to learn more and more about how this process works. We realized, like, for example, it's people like Bashar when they did the test on his brain, he was high gamma. So that's a flow state. And that you're starting to see these patterns all over the place and that you can learn from what they're doing or the blindfold thing to explain the mystery to say there's something here that we're missing in terms of how can you see through a kind of five-year-old kid see through a blindfold in 15 minutes and stuff like that. And so, and I'm sure the government has been working on this forever. That's a whole idea about musicians or in magicians. They worked on CIA, endless. John Mulholl in 1950s wrote the whole book on, you know, "Slight of hand and subterfuge." And even, I'm sure they've worked with people like Apollo Robbins, a world-class pickpocket, you know, all these guys. But I'm sure mentalists too, you know, they probably get a lot of college from the CIA. Yeah. And that's what they're using. If it's new, you don't reject it. You want people who are sitting on the edge who aren't going to be backed off and go for it. And that's where, because you know the Russians are working on this kind of stuff. And the Chinese, like I know the story that Bob Emmeriger told me that, that help put off it contacted him about going and see the Chinese kids. And this is in the 1980s. Yes. There's a declassified document about that where they were changing the time on watches and they were teleporting things. Yeah. And the CIA was watching it's very closely. Why would they not be watching this stuff? And that's the whole thing. And Bob was supposed to go. But again, his wife didn't want him to go with Alan Sandler. First figure, he's going to get in trouble if he goes to China with Alan Sandler. So he never did the documentary. But how it sort of briefed him on what was going on in China, all this kind of stuff. And figured that he's the exact guy that was in the paranormal who could do a good documentary and bring this stuff forward. So you can see, so you can imagine where the government is. I don't know. Did I tell you, I told you before, but I told the story about the rat brain thing. I always tell the story about the rat brain thing. And we haven't talked about it. Where they get they take this guy in Southern Florida, so this 20 years ago, and it's 2004. This guy takes 20,000 neurons from a rat brain and he puts them in a petri dish and he wires the bottom of the petri dish into a F 22 simulator. And they teach this sending signals to the, you see, you see the, he shows the film and you can see the neurons and they're all sort of separated. And then day later, they're all sort of joining up together in third day, they're all talking to each other. Like a little brain, then they put the wires on there, put it in and they teach it by sending high, low signals in to keep the plane and signals this way. And eventually they teach this 20,000 neurons to fly the simulator and then they take the simulator and they get wind conditions and thunderstorms and high crosswinds and stuff like that. Just keep flying. And that's the thing is so if that is the technology that you've got 2004 and that's white world technology, imagine with the DARPAs working on that is absolutely the next generation of AI. Yeah. And that's biological, that's why I say with the craft. So I wrote the book on the 36 witnesses that came to me for flying the craft. And I remember the first woman that came to me because I had the download February 26, 2012. So I give a lecture in Phoenix, Arizona the next year and the woman was running it said, are you still going to talk to Pam DePoi? I guess so, I'm going to start reading Dr. whatever. So she said, that's good. Come to me. We get my house. She's going to come. I'm going to work. She'll talk to you. So then Pam DePoi and her boyfriend come to the door. She's in her 70s and she says, what did the Stacy tell you about me? I said, and I'm just supposed to talk to you. So she comes in and she's, I'm doing remote doing for the government. I was a little kid. I was abducted. I saw the UFO. I mean, my diaper and she's in the middle of a field. It's not only stories. You hear all these stories. Okay, why don't we just tell me stories and that she's going on about our latest. Yeah. And I was flying a craft last night and I go, what? You were what? And she says, I was flying the craft last night. I said, you, because I'm taking it to myself, you're 70 years old, lady. You're flying the craft. I'm taking it to myself. I saw the Arabian women at that time, could not drive a car unless there was a man on the car. I said, they let you fly the craft without a license insurance. Nothing. They let you fly the craft. I said, yeah, I've flown three different models. And then I'm taking it. Or I would or what do I do? And I'm doing it. So I do fly craft. She's, oh, you do it with your mind and suddenly I go, oh, that's why they set me up with this woman. And I said, they fly it with your mind. And then these people started to appear from all over the place. Chris Bletzel, for example, he, he comes to me and he says, he said, I've flown a craft. I was talking about himself on the craft and I said, you flew the craft. I've heard experiences talk to me about it too. Yeah. And then he said, yeah, flown a craft. Says, stop. Chris, don't tell me anything because I don't want to prejudice you. I'm going to phone you. I'm going to contact you on Skype at that time. I'm going to tape it. You tell me, start from the word go and tell me what happens. So he tells, I'm outside the craft and he tells this whole story about the craft being bigger on the inside. Look outside his 30 feet. Look inside the size of football stadium. Look outside. And the beings are in the, the, the being in the inside. And he says, they say to put your hand on this panel. So his, and everybody touched something different, which is really weird. How can you have 36 cases where nobody touched the same thing? But the idea as you touch the craft, the craft is conscious. That's alive. It's biological. You become one with a craft. Your mind becomes one with a craft. And whatever you think is what the craft does. So you have to touch something. So Chris had to have a pedestal in the middle of the, in the middle of the craft. He shows me, he draws where the beings are in the pedestal and has this like a beehive on the top. And some black plastic thing on the top puts his hand on it. And then he said, okay, take your hand off. You can see where his hand is. And it's like a, like a CD, you know, it's all the colors going through it. Like, you can see where his hand was. And then there's these, these hexagons and I've only heard one other person tell the story about the hexagons. They're in the wall. These hexagons are turning and they're small. And he said, as this is taking place, they're going faster and they're getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And he says, this whole thing's taking place on the inside of the craft. And he said, all of a sudden, the window opens up in the front and he's over top of the Cape Fear River where he's abducted. And he said, it was sitting with cross-legged on the floor, flying this high off the water down the Cape Fear River going, yeah, it tells us the flight of the navigator. And my assistant had flown the craft and I said, you flew the craft and I was like, oh, the cow. And people always say it sounds like it. I think it was a dream. Like, I had this guy. He was an F-22, an F-16 pilot in, I was lecturing in LA and I'm lecturing. And then we went for dinner after and I talked about people flying the craft. And then this guy comes in and they said, David, David, he missed Grand Slycer. He's talking about flying the craft. Tell him your story. And he said, you flew the craft and he said, yeah, but I think it was a dream. I said, everything's said to dream. So and then I said, David, tell him what we are. Tell him what you do. I said, what do you do? He says, I'm a pilot. And I said, oh, my son's a pilot. My father's a pilot. What do you fly? He said, F-16. What? So now tell me your story. I think it's just like a dream. He said, don't care. Tell me your story. And he tells me, I'm on a ship. I'm standing on a ship. Just standing there. And somebody behind me and they say, okay, go ahead and do it. And he goes, I don't know what to do. And they said, you know what to do? Just do it. It looks like there's this panel, he puts the handle on the panel, the panel board. And he says, suddenly, I'm flying the thing. I'm flying this. It's like flying an F-16. Except he said, it's like suction cups on an F-16. Where are we? And you see, he's got his hands on there. And then he takes one hand. off and he's figured this is going to stall. He's going to put a hand back down. He's going to his hand off, and it's not stalling, and he takes this hand off and he's really ready to put it back down. He takes his hand off, and he's flying the craft. And then that leads to another weird thing where he's telling me this story. And then I got other people who start telling, Jim Semyvant tells the story. He says, "I'm on the beings are there." And he said, "The enviroment James Ian Daly says, "What were they saying? What was the beings?" I don't want to talk about it. People are other investigating. I don't want to talk about it. And then he gets frustrated. He says, "Oh, okay. Was there any telepathy involved?" He said, "That was the strangest part." He said, "There was somebody standing behind me, and I couldn't see whether it was a reptilian or a tall white. Somebody standing behind me, and it had this guardian type thing going on about it." And I go, "Guardian type thing." So I said, "The James Ian Daly, ask him what side it was on." Because he studied Michael Newton, the whole Michael Newton thing, when you get, when you go in front of the council, your guy stands behind you. In the room of destiny. Left side. And so then I'm saying, "Holy cow, all these people, I start realizing this person talks about somebody behind them. Somebody's behind them. So I went to Whitley Street. I said, "Hey, Whitley, you've been on the craft, right?" He said, "Yeah." He said, "I got this weird thing I just suddenly discovered. And you can't go back and re-interview people." Yeah, you're trying to ask like, "Oh, my goodness. I missed this question in first round. I would have more people." But I said, "Widley, do you ever have the experience you're on the craft and there's somebody behind you and they're telling me what to do. But you're not allowed to look." And he said, "Well, yeah." He says, "I told you. I was sitting at the panel board there." And he said, "And I said to myself, I'd like to steal this thing. I'd like to take this thing." And somebody behind him started laughing. And he said, "He's telling this thing." He said, "All the time, there's always something like that." And he said, "Didn't he tell him like you would have no idea how to fly this thing?" Yeah. And he said, "He flew it from New Jersey to Denver in a couple of minutes or a minute or something like that." And so I, do you pick up these sort of patterns or people are on the craft. And they say, "I could see him 360 degrees." And I go, "How do buddy experience people say the same thing?" Near that's experience people say the same thing. You become like a consciousness. It's like a vessel for consciousness. You know, it's just all the same world that these people are in. And you have your perspective of what you think you're doing. But it's all this higher realm, all this manifestation, or you even take the story with the crafting bigger on the inside than outside. And that's where Susie Hansen tells the story. Where they say, "What Susie, we're going to make the ship bigger." And she says, "The wall's a white wall stuck." So they go, go, go, go, go. And suddenly, they're so far she can't even see the walls anymore. And that's what the woman told me. This crazy woman that told me about flying the craft. And then she says, "Oh, they got crafts that are as big as a solar system." She's like, "Why are you talking like I'm on." And then I hear this again. They can make as big as they want, but it can be inside a rock. There's no time and space. They can be inside a rock. And you go inside the rock. And it's the size of solar system. And there's a craft in, you know, all this kind of stuff. Your whole reality starts to fall apart. And that's what they were basically when I did the psychedelics. So I couldn't do meditation. And I couldn't do, I couldn't do, I couldn't do, uh, out of body experience, lucid dreaming stuff. So I did the psychedelics at 27 high dose cells. I've been experienced. And they kept going me about my ego. And they would say to me, "You think you understand everything. You think you know what's going on." You get like a clue it's going on. And they kept telling me this. And then finally I got frustrated. That was about five, four sessions of this at least. And then I said, "You know, I didn't, I call it still, it's still some school." I didn't, I just went there to say, "I'm here. What do I need to learn?" I'm not here to get anything. It's just what I need to learn. And I got these lessons. They were giving me these lessons. I knew what the lesson was. Almost from the word go, exactly what the lesson was going to be. And, and then, so I got frustrated this, this ego thing. They were kept hammering my ego. And then I said, "You know, I didn't come here to be abused." You know, I just came here to find out what's going on. So you tell me what the hell's going on. And then this voice or message or whatever happens. I said, "We don't know either." I go, "Oh, all right. How ironic." We don't know either. That's like they're at their level or whatever. But that's why I sort of used all these modalities to try to get. And if you get somebody's really good at a modality, then you find that they get some answers. They're doing this flow state thing. Yeah, they're tapped in through this flow state. Whether it's channeling or music or yeah, it's all kind of the same. I see. Yeah, you're looking at different modalities here. Yeah. And you can get some pretty weird stuff in terms of one woman who, you know, who's just goes into her trance and claims that Leonardo da Vinci is going through her and her hand is drawing and she's asleep or stuff like that. And there's no way you can explain that to people. A lot of people, also, who even a friend of mine, Jordan Crowder, who's he's big into consciousness and he says his whole book was written that way. He's like, "I don't remember writing 90% of my book." I asked that all the time. Right to itself. Has that ever happened to you? I mean, you've written a lot of books. Well, I get the inspiration for writing the books. Yeah. So the inspiration's like a muse come to you as a download. It's just synchronicity. Like Chris was the thing I get to fall in love with. I see. The apport book was where it was a bizarre synchronicity where Jeffrey Mishlove is interviewing Stanley Krippner, who's the longest living parapsychologist. And Stanley Krippner is talking about stuff that falls out of the ceiling. I remember Ray Hernandez, the first time I asked him where L.A. X. him couldn't get a Uber. And I said, "Ray, you got 4200 experiences. Who's your best guy?" He said, "Well, Alberto's the best guy." And he's got these apports. And he goes, "Apports. Where are you talking about?" And he said, "Oh, these apports, these things they fall out of the ceiling. He's got this big sword." And he's got a sword. And he shows me this, he's got this wall of all these shelves of all this stuff, all these apports things that are falling on. Go, "This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen in my life." And then I go to this conference. And that's when they play with my PowerPoint. It was the most paranormal thing that's ever happened to me. I'm going there and you go, you take your PowerPoint before and make sure the speakers are working in your sound is working on your slides and stuff like that. And I go there. And all the slides are doubled up. Slide is sideways. They're squished. They're pulled. And I'm going, what is going on here? And I just took it out. I put it on the thumb drive. So I go back. I take it, just clean off the thumb drive, put it back in. I look at the computer. Everything's perfectly normal, put it in, load it again. Go back. And then I put it in there. It's the same thing. And the guy says, "Well, maybe you didn't do it." I said, "I've done like a 200 PowerPoint." I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. There's something weird going on here. And then Paul says to me, she says, "Are you coming to the rest restaurant at 8 o'clock?" I said, "Paul, I've got problems with my computer." She said, "Well, you know what's going on?" I said, "No, that's not what's going on. I'm falling. No, that's not what's going on." And I went and I did it again. And I came back. And then I figured, "Okay, so I just tell them, delete all the doubles, all the triples, delete all the audios. There's a bunch of slides, missing and stuff like that." I said, "I can wing it. I can wing the rest of it and that stuff I got." And it was just so bizarre. And then the synchronicity comes. So I get that thing. And then this feathers, all these people with feathers. I wouldn't get into that. I just, I'm believable story about these feathers, falling all over the place. And on my, my, the last one was my, we were, had gone to the next city and my assistant was there. And she comes in with this feather. And I go, "Yeah, you got feathers." She said, "I'm standing outside waiting for you to come out of this gift shop. And this feather comes down and falls on my foot." And it was just 13 people, just the weirdest thing. And so Krippner is on Jeffrey Michel. And he's talking on the porch. I go, "Oh, porch. Let's watch this." And he said, "I had this woman and this guy from South America and he was a psychic." And he's doing all these approaches, making stuff appear jewelry and all this sort of stuff. And he said, "And then some are rocking my house and stole all my stuff." So I decided in order to protect my stuff, I would send it to a university to make sure it got protected. So the next parts I got, I sent to a university in Canada, the University of Manitoba. And I'm going, I worked there for 40 years. What's the chance that the only apport collection, except for the one that's Stanford, is at the University of Manitoba, I'm going, "Holy cow, I got dragged into this important thing." It started looking at asking experiences like, "Have you ever had something follow this ceiling?" Or, "You mentioned the thing about the book." I ask everybody all the time. They read a UFO book like, like, "Sure." Well, they ask you and she says, "She tells the story." I wake up at a computer. I'm a real estate agent. I never use the word program. I wake up at the computer and look, the word program's open and she goes, "I never use the word program. What's it open?" She says, "Read it." Oh, no, we're not going there. No way. No, we're not going there. And it's her story. And then Doss says, "Oh, yeah. You should do this." No, not doing it. The timing is everything. And she says, "I'm not writing your damn book." And then she reads it again. She says, "That's pretty good." And then she goes, "The assault thing." So I ask people, I say, a lot of, most people, experiences write the book. I say, "Did they ask you to write the book?" Yeah, I've never told anybody. Yeah, I think they wanted me to do the book. Or the story I told you the story about Mike Clawan, where he gets filled on the ship and he turns into a gray. And he gets in front of this council where you can't see their faces. And they're behind this table, this wooden table with garbage carpet there. And he's going, "It's the weirdest thing." I don't know, a spaceship, they've got this carpet and stuff like that. And they say, "Mike, it's time." So what am I doing here? What am I doing here? Like, it's time, Mike. Time for what? It's time. And then suddenly he remembers and he starts yelling, "I've never told him it's going to be like, it's going to be depressed." And then they said, "You've volunteered for this, Mike. It's time for you to get going." And two days later he starts writing the first owl book. So you hear this over and over again. And every time somebody has a book, I would say, "Do you think you've got inspired?" There's some type of muse events or guiding that's what they want. They want you to tell the story. They don't care if you tell it right. They just want every time the story because that's how consciousness rises. Like people will say, "We made no progress in paranormal or the UFO." And they say, "We absolutely have." Absolutely have. Because I started in '75 and people think it was the same as it wasn't '75. It's not even close. Not even saying, "World is '75." And so what you have is a situation where you tell a story, I tell a story, and consciousness rises. And you can go to China today, and you can say, "Ary 51." And they go, "Yeah, we know what that is." And they go, "Africa, you can Area 51, skin walk around. Near death experience. I don't believe it, but I know what this everybody knows and it's it's what Max Planck said You do not can and Max Planck was quantum physics the father quantum physics and they were harassing him as well Because he said you do not you do not convince your opponents. He's wrong by showing him evidence You you it happens when your opponent dies and the new generation is not a fan with the idea That's right. The idea comes about science advances generation one through and a lot of time. Yeah, I've said And that's what happened so the consciousness is up there and the young kids are not going to the night. That's a lot of UFOs Yeah, sure, and that happens with AI too like I mean happens with all advancement like I mean our our grandchildren's grandchildren I mean they're going to be raised by AI nannies and it's not even going to be a question of you know whether or not it's ethical Um, I do want to get into some questions from the audience. Do you want to take a quick break before we do so? Yeah, I'm good if you're a member of this channel you join the membership a lot of perks, but one of the perks is you get to Submit a question for our esteemed guests And we got a few questions here the pretty interesting so we're try to pull these up right now So Gina asks what's the most interesting non-physical aspect of the phenomenon you've uncovered in your research like the most single most Interesting non-physical aspect we've talked about obviously the synchronicities the flow state the Interactiveness with this you know consciousness existence, but what's What's one ask? Okay, one thing I'd spell out first is that it's all one thing rather than It's the doubt that can be named is not the doubt once you put a noun when you call it a noun is wrong It's all verb. It's all connected. It's all one thing. It's all so it's it's a different level consciousness It's like when you head your out of body experience you're floating above your body and you look back at your body and you say it's the consciousness in the brain No, it's floating around the room here. Where is the where is the brain? It's in my consciousness the body's near consciousness You're looking at it and you look out the window and where's that it's in my consciousness this idea that that it's there's no separation I think the most amazing thing I have seen That should change the world is is the telepathic children. I mean Emma. What's the name? Haley was the first one I saw that just blew me away. And this is dying. Hennessey Paul's first Girl where she hit 162 numbers right in a row. She first time she got seven wrong and then She said well, you got seven wrong and then Haley went Correct him and 162 in a right and there's no way that this is gonna happen Or you take a look at the kids now they're being tested at Stanford at Harvard University of Virginia. There was a six universities offered to do these kids and it hasn't caught on It's a switch frustrates me in the field is you get this stuff and you go like wow the world has changed and like Not nobody pays any attention. There's go, oh see any uh you host lately any kind of photographs Like you know what I heard what I said and this is these kids that that they can go 20 for 20 50 for 50 you you put with their experiments a triple blind so you're you're the experimenter I'm say the mother so I'm in one room the kids in another room and you're in another room You give the target it goes to me I think of the target and the kid goes beep beep beep beep and we'll never make a mistake Why haven't they made any of that public they have? Well, we don't has gone anywhere. That's what I'm saying Yes, but I mean like we can't see any of that We don't see I've been interviewed the one girl with the with the blindfold for blindfold sure where she's going But I want to see the tests under test conditions like it's a it's a very very important distinction for a magician When it's done at home with a podcast Versus in Stanford lab the daughter. They said I would get the first interview with the daughter and then something happened and But these tests were done. I'm not sure why I would I would love to see them starting coming out They were done at Stanford and apparently these guys were just totally blown away and by these by these children With under these trip they need to release this well, I think well. Yeah, that's like that's why we're not talking about it Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. That's that's that's the stuff that just That is insane and you see these kids and like they have like the one with the people say well, they're faking it Well, you have a hundred kids in India There's a big Indian institute that does this and you have these kids and they're all sitting there and they get to target And then they're walking around and these kids you can see their targets and they're all like Most of our hidden hidden the target and like a hundred kids at five and six years old are faking this and then you're going like Why is this not out there? It's like Just amazing like the just recently they they got the ones With the telepathy tapes which was not one podcast at one point of course But the thing was that it went into these labs and they were supposed to release this testing was supposed to been done at the end of By Stanford Stanford I was one and I heard University of Virginia because they do the near-to-the-reincarnation stuff all kind of stuff But it hasn't it hasn't come out. I mean it hasn't they've done demonstrations at contacting a desert and stuff like that I've seen those I was there. I was literally inches away on stage for those tests What I saw there didn't convince me. I'll be honest that that that was telepathy as a magician just knowing methods You know one of the reasons for me personally and this is again I'm not here to throw a wrench in the process Because I want it to be real. I really want it to be right I think this is amazing and this would be leaps and bounds for us understanding consciousness But in that moment, you know when there was like the mother holding the paper for the child to like press the touch the numbers on You know, I'd ask on stage. I said can the can can someone else hold the paper and the answer was no I was given no and then I said okay, can we put the paper in a stand and she said no We can't put the paper in the stand and I said well see these are the type of things that I fight against as a magician Because I could be queuing you subtly And and the child wouldn't even you know she'd be none the wiser she'd just be thinking on making my mom happy by getting these things right and so There needs to be proper testing of these things in proper conditions and those tests need to be public They need to be released. There's no reason we should be hiding them The only reason I can Fathom that we're hiding these tests is one they failed or two Somebody doesn't want them out there like those are the two options that I that I can think of right otherwise It's just to benefit. It's a net positive for everyone if we release these so yeah I would encourage like whatever you can go in an offer to do testing under control conditions Yeah, to see if anybody goes for it because there's so many kids that that have disability to do this yes They're claiming through their parents and the one kid's got a blanket on his head and you know this kind of stuff and and I would agree I mean if they're they're not making them because that was the thing I talked them just as the tests were ending they said well We can't let you interview the daughter until the tests are done and they're weighted and then nothing happens So but I mean it's that kind of stuff if you get that if the kid is talking another language. Yes I mean that's pretty or learning. Yes. Absolutely. I agree But again, these are stories until they're until there's some type of You know like you might have you might have seen these happen in person and some other people may have as well But until they're they're documented properly This question is every are you ever going to get to the bottom of because that's what Max Planck said You're never going to condense anybody by showing them evidence. You're never going to convince the skeptic right They'll always come up with an alter an explanation It's not until those guys die yet the new generation says yeah, this is real So there's a there's a balancing act between getting it out. I do think so and trying to condense say Nick West or something because he wants to Right big podcasts and expose it and no or you know The New York Post or whatever I understand that I understand that but I also understand that you know having a peer-reviewed study Buy people at Stanford again. I've got a peer review study. You know, I'm doing the the experiment with it with the soul thing And then they said oh you got to do a peer review study. I mean the goal post if I I'm not going to do a peer review Study I'm not an academic. Yeah, so and and if I got the peer review study who's going to be on the peer? I mean the Roman Catholic priest that are running on the show here the stuff like that It's no you're right. You make you make a valid point as a magician I have no I have no choice but to be skeptical because I'm aware of how to trick people right? I am aware of methods and until I can eliminate the methods that I'm aware of have you brought this up with? I'm Kai Dickens. I brought it up with Dr. Dianne Powell. Okay. Yeah, and what would she she offered to She was a little she was a little reticent. No, I talked to her in person and then I emailed her a few times about my concerns with what I'd witnessed Yeah, because again, I'm not out to she should be willing to fingers and she she was at first, but then She assured me that she was having the tests done under you know strict Stanford guidelines and sort of variables But I I responded you know with all due respect as a magician I can fool the pants off every one of these scientists and that's my job It has been for a very long time. I don't care who you are I would say I mean if you need somebody with the knowledge of how to run the test But no, I can be variables that should be eliminated and there are a lot that You know clearly scientists are not aware of and that's why magicians You know, that's such as like oh, it's Pearlman or all these other famous magicians Darren Brown or whatever Our popular because if people started figuring out they would have no job So obviously we have methods that no one else has and we have to keep those secret But I would be willing to impart that knowledge. Yeah, you should be listening to you because I mean that is a balancing act Whereas the other thing is like if I run my experiment then the experiment I'm doing right now I would never like let a magician do the second reproduction That's how exactly what it's gonna come out right exactly and so it's just balancing act between Taking that advice and having someone or see but just apply it Not allowed the magician to touch the correct Absolutely, yeah, I would be happy I'm surprised that you didn't get taken up on that offer because that makes sense because you're gonna run these experiments You're gonna make a public like right now and everybody's gonna say, well, this is the explanation. They've done all that work for nothing because they didn't address your-- - Exactly, and I would be the biggest champion of it. If they did take the advice, then I would use my platform and everything I know to help push this into people's, onto people's screens and into their consciousness. I think it's really important. But until then, I can't get behind it. - I'd already be quoting you now. - Yeah, I'll just skeptics would be quoting you. That's what this is there. - Sure, and they could do so with confidence and I would be happy for them to do so. But until then, I think that that's partially, you know what James Randi said it to do initially, although he did it in a very negative way, which I don't agree with. I think if you come into something believing that it won't work, that that sort of pigmalion effect might have an adverse effect on the conditions itself. I think that if we're dealing with consciousness-- - Yeah, there's a story told in Britain about the one child who was doing it, reading books, the reading of the book, and then the father who's a skeptic, brings the kid in one week for the lesson, and the mother can bring the kid in, and then the kid's reading and the father's like, holy cow, and he goes and he looks over the kid's shoulder and then suddenly the kid says, "I can't see, I can't see anymore." And then the instructor says, "Could you move away, please?" And he moves text a couple of steps back, "Oh, I can see you again." And it's this idea that there may be a minefield. - There might be. - Yeah, so-- - Yeah, you definitely have to consider all these weird things. - There was everything into it. I mean, to reject something from something like use and expert magic, I mean, that just blows it out of the water in terms of where are you gonna go? Because everybody's just gonna say, well, you didn't cover this corner. - Exactly. - She actually had that problem before where she did the hailey one where someone said, "Oh, there's a tape recorder behind her telling her what to do." And that's all, you know, we didn't look at this and there's always gonna be these things. - Exactly, but if we can eliminate the variables at least that most magicians are aware of, I think that that'll translate to a lot more people jumping on board, but people are smart. People will, you know, they'll try to poke holes and things no matter what. Like I have, I can show you after this podcast, I have probably on that shelf, probably three or four books that deal entirely solely with how to peek through a minefield. You know, and so until I can eliminate those methods, I can't be entirely behind it, but if you can eliminate them, like for me, the blindfold thing, I think is very interesting, but I also think it's very performative. Like it feels vaudevillian to me, whereas if you just put something in a box, it would eliminate all my concerns. Why do we need fabric? Why can't it be a metal box? Like what's the difference here? And if we can't answer that question, then I have to question what you think consciousnesses. If you think consciousness can't see through metal, but can see through fabric, I don't think we're talking about the same thing. So, you know, I'd like to address things like that, and if we could get past that barrier and prove to people that this is real, I will 100% be the biggest champion of it, and I would love that. I would love the opportunity to help out with that, for sure. All right, let's get to another question here. This is an interesting question too. I've pondered this question myself. - From Decker, he says, "If disclosure is a process, not an event, what phase do you think we're in right now?" - I think we're in the phase of realizing it's not just nuts and bolts, that there's something beyond. And you have these high-level officials, like Jim Simeván, where he makes a statement, there doesn't appear to be any there there. People say we just need to connect the dots. I'm not sure there's any dots to connect, and you hear that, and you're going like, "What's he talking about?" Or you hear Lekaski saying, "You know, if I told you what was inside the craft, "you'd realize the rest of the book is very, very primitive." And then when he finally describes this, instead of the craft, he says, "Nothing." There's nothing inside the craft, there's no beings, there's no control panels, there's no engine, there's nothing, and then he says, "So what are we really dealing with?" Or when he makes this statement, he said, what we were trying to do in the program was move it from the $22 million on the propulsion, and we were trying to move it up to $150 million, that's where Reed was going, and we weren't going to be chasing, flaring UFOs around the country, which indicated, he said, "I'm not saying we're going to have a department of paranormal, "but we need in this whole idea, $150 million, "to go after the paranormal, to explain this idea of the paranormal." So these high-level officials are starting to hint that this is the whole thing, and that, to me, is maybe why they're not making the disclosure, because if you've got all the answers, and if you've got all this technology, and you're flying all this technology, number one, Bigelow wouldn't have pulled out in 2010, realizing there's no money in here. And Donald Trump would have been into it, and trying to make some money or something like that, and the way it is is that it's sort of a dead end road in terms of the answers you have, and if you don't have the answers, as what's going to, I predict what's going to happen now, it's going to be a million and one questions, and you're never going to end, it's like the actual thing, you're never going to be able to answer all the questions, that's a question, that's a question, that's another question, and just going to keep going, and they may not have the answer, that may be what the cover-up is all about. - So do you think for people looking into disclosure, or people being interested by this stuff, that they should stop trying to follow, perhaps like the legacy retrieval, tight path, and look more into what these privatized government contractors are doing, where their money is going in terms of sigh research? - Yeah, because basically whatever's going to happen now, people wouldn't talk about disclosure, I say what do you mean by disclosure? What exactly do you want to disclose? They say we want to know, it's true, yeah, it's true. They told you, okay, disclosure. No, no, and then I want to know, and it just keeps going, and basically all that's coming, it's going to happen here at this point, is they are going to confirm UFOs are real, and I always said like it's the definition of insanity. We've done this since 1947, like how many red wines, green wines, how many fast ones, slow ones, where are they seeing all this sort of stuff, and I didn't get you anywhere, and you just keep doing the same thing over and over, assuming you're going to come to a different conclusion, you're not going to come to a different conclusion. And all we're going to prove here with the Trump thing, if they released the documents is, yes, as it said, yeah, there are aliens, and number two, yeah, there are UFOs, and they are here, beyond that, we don't know anything. So it's this physical part that they're going to reveal is true, that's disclosure, but we already got that already. They've disclosed the physical stuff is real. It's the other part of the thing as to where they're from, what's actually going on, how do they get here? - How's it interact with us? - Yeah, all that kind of stuff. I don't think they may have the answers at a very deep black ops level. - Right. - But that's why I think why they're doing these disclosure things, where they're allowing people like Lakatsky to come out and tell these stories, where they take true information, they surrender with this information, they put it out, and they're sort of moving the ball, or as this whole story where chase Brandon said in 2012, that was his job at the CIA. He was the Hollywood guy. So if you were doing a movie on the CIA, go ahead and say, "Hey, you're doing a movie on the CIA, "if you ever been to the CIA, would you like to go to the CIA?" We could show you around, you would be more accurate, and they'd try to direct the story. And we have to direct the story sort of away from the fact that we've already discovered. Yeah, this is real. I mean, almost nobody really denies this, and there is a physical aspect to this thing. The things can, as they can with-- - And stansiate in any physical form. - But you mean get consciousness on that, eh? Because in consciousness in our ports, like Leslie Kane, when I interviewed Kelsey Kane, the co-interview said, "Well, you want to ask her?" I said, "I'm only asking her one question." Who's that hand real? And then, so she came on and said, "Lesslie, tell me about the hand, did you actually touch that hand?" - Yeah. - And she describes, and this is the whole thing, that they can manifest a hand, they can manifest a ship, they can manifest whatever they want. They can lower it down into physical things through our ports and manifestations, and then they can make it disappear again. And that's what Leslie said, who's the one that wrote the New York Times article, where she said, "I've seen it four times, where the act of pleasant comes up on the table, and she's there, and the hand is there, and she's touching the hand, I can feel the tendons and it's soft, and it's like a bang's on the table, and it goes back down, and stuff like that, which gives you the idea, if it's true, that these are dead people manifesting this stuff, and then what can aliens who are a million years more advanced than us, how would they develop in order to manifest stuff in our world and to change? - Or is all of that the same phenomenon? - Yeah, it's all just different levels of the fun. - Are we dealing with some type of system that can instantiate in any form to interact with your consciousness? - Yeah. - So if you're thinking, if you're a religious person, you're gonna see an angel. - That's what Cate Green actually says. - And if you were, exactly, and that's a Jacques Vallet, talks about as well, where like if you're fearful of monsters, you might see some giant insect or something. - And that's the same thing happens in lucid dreaming, where they say if you see a negative being, go towards it, give it a kiss and a hug and say you love it, and it'll turn into a positive being. - That's right. - Because you're the one that's manifesting it. - Incidentally manifesting it. - And then you get the thing with sparks, where sparks talked about the ability that they may have, he was one of John Maxx's first clients, and he talked about the fact, he's got the idea of screen imaging, that they can screen image, and they'd come in, they'd come in filtering uniform. And you could see that fooling me, I know you're screen imaging, you're not fooling me. You haven't even got the right uniform on, and he said instantaneously. As he said that, the uniform changed to the right uniform, instantaneously. Well, that's interesting too. Here's, this is a really interesting thing because now it becomes, and this is where I get a little confused by this whole thing, because we go from this, what seems to be like a predictive, event to a reactive event. And it's really interesting because it, you know, we have nuclear silos that house these warheads and these ICBMs or whatever it is, or even these places that my uranium or plutonium and you have these crafts show up, right? They show up after Hiroshima. They show up, you know what I mean? Like they're showing up as war is unfolding. They're showing up reactionarily. Like they're reacting to things. They're not predicting them. And to me, that signals that there is something that they don't have control. There is free will is very much on the table, it seems. And that they're only trying to course correct free will rather than predict it and stop it. They see it happen and then they react. Just like you said, the shirt changed after instantly. But there is a portion of free will there. - Yeah, they have to allow, what the Canadians were told. What I heard that Wilbur Smith had told. And I heard the story from the first head of Mufon. I forgot his name. But he told me that what Wilbur had told him, Wilbur's in contact with an alien that they tried to land at Sulfial, Alberta and all this kind of stuff. And Prit, Primary, Sinalyron, you about and sort of rejected. And what he said that Afa told him was, if there's a nuclear change, we can stop it. We can take the moon in front of the entire world, split it in half and put it back together in front of the entire world. Other than that, we will allow the human race to stew in its own juices. - Yeah. - That's the only thing they're not gonna do is the idea. Like why are you here? And that's when it comes down to the UFO thing. To me, it really doesn't matter. The question is, where did I come from? Where am I going? And if you're a Newton person, you get into that thing. They ask you one question when you leave. How to work out? 'Cause you planned it. You planned you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. And did it work out and stuff like that. And the idea is where did I come from? Where am I going? What did I agree to do when I got here? Whether it was love, envy, whatever. And am I doing it? And whatever anybody else is doing is totally irrelevant. And so that's to me is sort of the bottom line of this whole. - So you believe in the whole Michael Newton sort of? - Yeah. - I was one of my five big experiences in my life. I was floored when I first heard that. I saw him lecture and I was like, oh my God. - I saw him lecture. I spoke with Paul Laurent, who is the successor to the Michael Newton Institute. I've devoured, you know, journey of souls, destiny of souls. Like it is one of the most sort of plot hole filling, I guess theories out there, you know what I mean? And the fact that it's composed entirely of hypnotic regressions from other people is fascinating. - And yet, if you start looking, it's still that thing where we're composing our own universe because now there's a new guy, his name is Castle. Father Nathan Castle, I don't know if you ever heard his stuff. - No. - He said 500 dreams. He's a Roman Catholic priest. And he gets these dreams. People come into him in the dreams and they say, this happened and he gets his prayer team together and he's a channeler. He says, I can't use the word because the Roman Catholic Church isn't like him. So he talks to these people. And they're basically in a purgatory. They're in this, it was a wine, it was really funny. He's in this thing where all these people died and trained things. And the guy's saying, we need to get out of here. And he said, well, there's a boulder in the middle of the track, we can't get out of here. And then so he says, well, can't you sort of get all the people and push to the thing? Nope, nope, nope. He says, well, I'll see if I can get a friend and loader. And then the guy says, well, golly gee. There comes a friend and loader. And then they talk to him and the guy says, okay, you got it. And he says, well, make sure you bring me instructions. How do it works? So in case I know how to work and he's talking to this guy. And he's got 500 cases like this. - And he is. - But it's all this purgatory. - They're helping him move on. - Where these people are in this liminal state and the spirit guide send this person to him. If you ever listen to Nathan Castle, listen to his saying, he's 500 and he's done this. He's written three books on it. But it's-- - I've heard a ton of these stories too. - It's a whole thing. It's a purgatory world. Whereas Michael Newton's is this elevation world or when I heard-- - Well, Michael Newton does talk about the purgatory a little bit too. He says like, you know, if souls are confused at their death and if they didn't have some preexisting dogma or some preexisting like afterthought of what happens after your dead, they will just be confused as to why they're still there. And you'll have this guy in this house and be like, why is this guy screwing my wife? Why doesn't she make me tea anymore? I'm so confused and he doesn't, and there's no time. So they're there for 100 years. And they don't realize that they've had to move on and they're dead. - And Castle doesn't describe where they go after that. It's like the Newton thing, the ascension thing. - Right, right, right. - So you see that reflective nature of the people that come to him and they're in that state and stuff I got. And it's very informative as to how this might work. - Sure. - Or stuff like that. - It's fascinating. - I found him passing and this reflective nature. - I'm gonna look into it. What was him? - Nathan Castle, father Nathan Castle. And you actually see this thing with Michael Newton where I saw Suzy Hanson lectured in Toronto a few years back. And then she was talking about her story where she says, she's eight years old and they say, we're gonna bring your son to you to play with. And she says, I can't have a kid. She starts crying and whatever and they say, well, hang on. And then the kid comes out and it's a blue ball. It's a blue ball. And then the Michael Newton, if you know of the levels. - Yeah, the blue is pretty high. - The blue is before red. And then she describes herself as red. And she's playing with this blue ball. And then later time she describes that she's red. And I got her on the elevator and I said, I knew you were red. (laughing) This is like the elevation and her sign is a blue. And he's got this mission and she's got this mission. - Wow. - And I'm so amazed that because most people wouldn't know the Michael Newton colors. Like, you know the colors. And when I heard that blue, I'm going blue. And then she's red and I say, wow, this is insane. - And you can tie that into the chakras. And there's all sorts of connections to be made there. In fact, like so many people from different parts of the world are talking about the same colors. It's just wild. It's a wildery. - And you get us through meditation because people will disregard the Eastern traditions because they can't build cell phones. But now you take a look, there are 3,000 year old traditions of what's going on are coming to be true. And how do you get that? You get us through a contact modality. You sit in a cave for three years and cut off everything. And suddenly you're in the field and you're getting all this material and you're pulling it down. You have to build a cell phone but you know how the world works. - Yeah. - And now there were even the guys that were before World War II, all the people don't know. All the physicists before World War II were idealists. They all believe this idea that consciousness is primary. And we came to World War II. That's when the whole thing about shut up and calculate. We're building weapons here. Let's forget about that kind of stuff. - Yeah, war does that. But you had that whole idea that they were all into Eastern traditions. They were talking to the Indian guys. - Well, after the 30 year war at 1648, you had this pouring in of, you know, because after that war was basically what stopped, you know, there started to be secular thought among, you know, religions and the Roman Catholic church was, you know, at war and trying to figure out like what's going on. And eventually this sort of secular sort of, you know, thinking started happening. It's okay to have your own religion or to be Protestant and this and that, but along with that came this idea of maybe we can not only separate church and politics, but maybe we can separate church and science. And so then that started branching out, which, you know, created the Invisible College in the mid 1600s and this, you know, they started exchanging ideas in Europe. All of a sudden you had all these brand new, you know, thinkers come out and science started really like upping, but I feel like we're on the down swing of that now where we've done that for too long. And now we need to go back to connecting with the spiritual using science. You know, we've separated it for the last 350 years. I think now it's time that, you know, we start shifting our attention to bringing it back together and finding, you know, that the other end of the pendulum swing here. That's where we have that problem with, with, where they say you gotta get a pure, like AI, when I'm arguing with AI all the time, to get a pure reviewed study. So well, if you're in the UFO community, how are you gonna get a pure reviewed study? There's no peers. I mean, there's, you can't use the science world to do it 'cause they're in a different world. So we have to sort of get this to a point where there's research happening, which is happening now. - Yeah. - Parapsychology is being taught. UFOs is, they said the biggest thing happened to 2017 article, which is what I go after Jim Semy van with is he says, this is terrible. They violated their, they're evil. They violated my human rights or whatever. And it's like, the question I would ask him is, Jim, if you had not had those beings in your room, would you have gone to the three-letter agencies said, we're gonna drop this thing. We're not gonna use class by material. You guys had your chance, we're gonna drop this thing. And that's when the disclosure came. Jim Semy van, it started. But he wouldn't have done disclosure unless he'd had the beings in his room. - Sure. - So you see it as a negative thing. And yet, all that we can accept today, all that happened happened because Jim Semy van had these beings in his room. - Right, interesting. All right, we got one last question here. Grant, let's go from Hara. This has been a great discussion by the way. - Sounds like an Indian name. - She's, I think at a span. - Oh, okay. - This sounds like an easy answer. What is more classified? by today, technology or human potential. - My potential, one of the things I encourage people to do anybody is in the United States. If you're near the East Coast, Lawrence Rockefeller, people think he was big into UFOs. His main interest was human potential. And there's one of the people I've talked about. Who was it? James Larkowski made the quote, he's talking to George Napp and Corbell. And he said, they asked him about being evil. And he said, no, I may be prejudiced by my Roman Catholic view, but no, I would say, if you knew the human, the potential of the human being, you would know there's nothing wrong here. That's what he says, human potential. And that's the idea that you get into consciousness and what are we really? We're just gradually learning this. And we want to have everything yesterday. But we've got to realize it's a process and it's how you-- - And it's okay not to have it tomorrow. - Yeah. And we work on this thing and what are we learning and stuff like that, 'cause that's what I find in the UFO community, they just don't want to wait. They want this right now and why aren't we getting this and this sort of stuff and missing the sole point. That's where Walker said, admit it, you're just curious. What are you gonna do if you figure it out? And most people are saying, nothing, I'm just gonna do a podcast and then I'm going back to work tomorrow. - Yeah, and it's something I've been telling people recently and I've been getting a lot of people disagreeing with me and for me, it's kind of acts as a lens of where you're at, perhaps, but I think the answers are in consequential. I do think the questions are everything and it's the answers are cared on the stick. The answers exist so that we ask the questions and not the other way around. We don't ask the questions to get answers. The answers are there so they get us to ask questions and that might be a little metaphors to why the phenomenon is there too. - Yeah, you can take these things like I have it. Now, I don't have these pills on them, but I have problems with memory now. So I think, well, you know, it's all the times of whatever I'm thinking, it's kind of weird. Where does that fuck go when it disappears? And then I go back into the middle of the room and it comes back into my head where I thought about it and I go, how does that work? Where's the thought going? Where does that go when you forget? - A lot of science there too. - And you start to wonder like, how does that actually work? And that's what Einstein said, you gotta stay curious. - Yeah. - And that's where you go and if you're not curious, nothing happens. That's what I believe the phenomenon is doing. It's just doing weird, weird, weird stuff and it's getting you to question what's really going on. - The wow theory. - Yeah. - Thank you so much. One last question out of all of your books, which one do you recommend people pick up? - Inspired. - Inspired, it's great. - Or contact modalities is the one that was highly used by people who have, with your psychic or a medium, we go through all the different modalities and the whole idea of trauma, which I think is extremely important. - I will leave both of those in the description below and if you had one book outside of your books to recommend what would it be? - I was mentioning to you one today is James, a Robert Lanza, biocentrics and beyond biocentrics. It's basically a replay of the holographic universe, the whole idea of how does the world actually work? What is reality? High-level guy, extremely interesting two books. - Amazing, I will leave those as well in the description. Grant Cameron, you've been such an amazing, inspiring, interesting person to talk to. I could talk to you for days on end. I have a feeling we'll stay in contact 'cause I have way more questions for you. Thank you so much for joining me. - Yeah, thank you for the input on, I'm going to push the telepathy thing and ask you know, why we can't have this, where are the results? And, 'cause I think that's, to me that's the most important thing and you brought up an important point I think, which they have to consider. - I agree and I'll be consenting on helping in any way that I can. Thank you. - Thank you, sir. (soft music)