UFO Researcher Reveals Location of UFOs - UAP Gerb | DEBRIEFED ep. 78

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I'm speculating. I'm playing a character here. It's all for good fun and games. DNI, Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, and his PDDNI, Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Stephanie O'Sullivan, were not only aware of the crash retrieval issue, but also managed it in the senior capacity, and this is under the Obama administration. The man who would have briefed Obama that briefed Obama on all sorts of intelligence activities, so man by the name of Michael Dempsey, and he now, of course, is a senior vice president for government affairs at where else but North of Grumman. There seemed to be a coordinated effort to set up a presidential candidate as the disclosure president that would have been the next Democratic incumbent after Obama, Hillary Clinton. In my opinion, the ATIP program was an informal working group, not a real program besides anything written on a couple pieces of paper, the man at the helm was Lou Elisondo. The age of disclosure now in those figures specifically put off Elisondo and Eric Davis and Jay Stratner trying to present a false and incomplete UFO legacy program outline. You know, I spent about 18 to 20 months both vetting this guy and trying to get in contact with him. I call him Ed. This is a pretty senior Air Force intelligence official who claimed to work in what is called the Hidden Wing. This position was test evaluation test director for derivative technology, meaning airframes that utilize one or more components of non-human intelligence craft. ARV, as we like to call it, full-scale alien reproduction vehicles, and on two instances craft that were of non-human make. I'm basically reaching out to share a specific high-strangers encounter that occurred during my 10 years as a contractor for tier one unacknowledged set program or special access program. My intent is to provide a data point that might align with other testimonies regarding intersection of advanced aerospace platforms and non-human intelligence. I guess the context is while supporting a late night's sortie for a low observable high altitude ISR platform. I stepped away from the mission operations room to a separate skiff to complete task on my secure terminal, and it was passed midnight at that point, and I was the sole occupant of the room. I became aware of a presence in the room without hearing the distinct heavy click of the skiff door, and I observed the person, or an individual, same size as an average person, I guess, standing by a locked GSA approved document, safe, and this safe required weekly updates of the codes, so only a very few people knew about it. The person or figure wore like a really tight-fitting blue uniform and had a small, I guess, like a motorcycle helmet almost, except it was illuminated from the inside, so I couldn't see any sort of face. I looked at this person and I said, "How did you get in here?" And in my mind, it was like a thought, "You're not supposed to be here. Your kind are playing with fire," and then immediately the implication was, to me, a direct critique of specific technologies or components that we integrated into the platform. In my professional guess, it's the characteristics of just a non-conventional origin. Anyway, immediately following the message, the figure, e-materialized, as if it was just standing there, and then almost like what you see on Freaking Star Trek, he just went away, and faded away, anyway, I don't know if it was a projection or an entity. I'm sharing this because I believe the push for disclosure is necessary. I'm a contractor so I don't get special whistleblower protections. The development may be more entangled with NHI than it's publicly understood. I'm sharing this story with you and I said, "How did you get in here?" I see your face light up too. I know that you, like many other UFO researchers, have some type of Bob Lazar Shrine at their house. And so like myself included, this is part of it. But yeah, to be able to meet the man of self and for him to live up to expectations, they say, "Don't meet your heroes." But when you meet Bob, you realize quickly that and many people say this, he's just this guy. He's just a guy who, what he did doesn't define who he is. But what he did was extraordinary. And he understands that that's extraordinary to people. But he doesn't like to think of himself as an extraordinary person because of it. And you realize that with talking to him. He's a really humble guy. He was so kind what I met. And I've said on my channel so many times that I try not to talk about Bob as much as possible because it's so hard for me to be agnostic or not like a non-bias towards Bob. But with his story, some of the things I've come to learn us truths about Bob's testimony is the biggest thing the existence of S-4. I vehemently believe that S-4 is a real place. Primarily because I've spoken to several individuals who have claimed to have visited or in an official military capacity essentially gone right by S-4, observed either the doors and the malletins or observed the hangar. So you'd mention this off camera to me. I'm glad you're bringing it up 'cause I had forgotten about it. But you know, the hanger door thing is probably for me the smoking gun to Bob proving his story for everyone else. I'm convinced, I've also, I've been privy to some behind the scenes cuts of S-4, the Bob was our story. But aside from all that, I've pretty much hold Bob in extremely, extremely high esteem in terms of like telling the truth. And no one was saying hanger doors on the side of a building in that part of the world, right? No one was saying that before him. That is a cut and dry thing with Bob specifically. Now you can say hand scanner. Oh, that appeared in close encounters of the third kind. You can say crashed UFOs. Well, that's, you know, whatever. Or recovered craft even you can argue. But that is one thing. Aside from perhaps element 115, like if that ever pops up in a commercial use somewhere. Yeah. It's the one thing where you can go, that's Bob. And you had a story that you told me about somebody who drove by. Right. So, you know, if people are watching and they've seen my recent Air Force video, which is, intended to kind of take a modern day look at the UFO legacy programs, not as much crash retrieval, but more so reverse engineering and derivation practices within the Air Force through official channels. There's an individual there that I've spoken to many times, and you know, I spent about 18 to 20 months both vetting this guy and trying to get in contact with him. That is a UFO test and evaluation program based out of the western ranges of the continental United States by western ranges, I mean, I'll try to cut down on as many acronyms as I can. No, please. I need all the acronyms today. Okay. So in the short form, this what these western ranges comprise, M-R-T-F-B is including the U-T-T-R-N-T-T-R in Edwards 412 test wing. I never mind. I'm going to walk back everything I just said. So okay. Break that down for me, please. Major range and test facility bases are it's like the skeleton of the defense industrial base. Essentially, these are large scale training ranges for the US military to conduct any sorts of exercises. And when you think of M-R-T-F-Bs, there's I think 23 or 24 of these spaces across the US. The western ranges alone comprise millions of acres of land. Examples of M-R-T-F-Bs here include Pax River, the Naval Air Station Pax River. This gains some infamous, infamy recently as Tarzan recovered vehicles. Dugway Proving Ground. Dugway would be another one. But Dugway contains two M-R-T-F-Bs, including the West Desert Test Center, which is the Army sort of CBR&E or chemical, biological, nuclear, and high yield explosive range. And the southern part of the Utah Test and Training Range, that's an Air Force range to test various fighter squadrons, various vehicles, test and evaluation of new interesting aircraft. Similar to that, Nevada is the Nevada Test and Training Range. That also houses the Nevada Test Site, you know, where so many famous nuclear tests occur, that's now called the Nevada National Security Site, or Nevada National Security Sites plural, if you're factoring other places across the nation. And then the Edwards 412 Test Wing, which is the most important piece to this puzzle. The Edwards 412 Test Wing houses the Edwards TPS, the Test Pilot School, which is where Air Force pilots, you know, train to test the most innovative and insane vehicles that the U.S. has. And the 412 Test Wing operates under AFTC Air Force Test Center. So this individual essentially, I call him Ed, states that this program, I call him Ed because it's hard for Edwards, right? Yeah. I'm not going to have that bad of operation on security. Yeah. I call him Ed. It's like, is his name Edwards? I had to guess. Right. So in one of his positions in this program, what he claims, and I have to say, I very much believe this man's testimony after extensive vetting is, he's pretty high up this guy. Correct. Okay. A senior intelligence official, or I'm sorry, not intelligence, a senior officer within the Air Force. Military official. Correct. His position was test evaluation test director for derivative technologies, meaning airframes that utilize one or more components of non-human intelligence craft that could be propulsion, that could be an electro-optic cloaking system, ARV, as we like to call it, full-scale alien reproduction vehicles, and on two instances, craft that were if non-human make. He oversaw that or he just saw that. He was a test director. He was basically coordinating how to fly these things. Not necessarily how to fly, but different test evaluation. I see. So it could have been scientific testing. Right. It could have been like, you know, propulsion, could have been any, you know, just materials testing that type of thing. Right. It was rare. These craft were actually flown over the ranges a lot of the time. In Ed's capacity, these craft would be kept in an electromagnetically sealed hanger, and Ed would stand behind a partition along with 20 to 30 principal engineers. These principal engineers might be from nearby Plant 42, which is just Southwest of Edwards in Palmdale, so Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and Lockheed Martin. And there would be various testing done in the craft. What's interesting though is the two time there were craft of non-human origin within the hanger, Ed was not allowed to look inside. So he stood. How did he know they were the composition of them? Non-human origin. Did he lay eyes on them? Yes. But just the testing you couldn't see. Right. I see. No, no, no, I'm sorry. He saw the testing. He was not allowed to look at the interior of the craft. Oh, interesting. What? Yes. So he would be in the room with the vehicles, but he would not be allowed to approach close and be able to inspect the hatch way or the entry point into the vehicles. And hold on. So he's the test director. Correct. And they're not allowing him access to inside the craft who has access to inside the craft, if not the director, who's bringing these things in. They often would be driven in from Air Force Plant 42 down in California via low boy truck. And then he would just be briefed, "Hey, you know, this is what we're going to do." And that's it. And then they haul it back to wherever it was from. Yeah. His introduction into the program was very strange. And this ties back to S4. As a young officer, he wasn't sat down and given a stack of papers and said, "Here's your briefing into UFOs." You know, as a young Air Force officer, he specialized in electrical engineering concepts. So he would be out on the Nevada Test and Training Range and see weird things fly over him. And it was expected he'd never talk about it. Eventually, there was a major that kind of gave him a more formal briefing, but that included showing him videos of what he calls inspection craft. These were videos from probably about the 1960s or '70s that essentially showed recovered technical vehicles of non-human origin that he wager, they were non-human vehicles. And because of the shape of them or because the shape, the metallurgy, yeah, they're saucers. Yeah. Okay. And that same major, you know, again, he was operating out of the Nevada Test and Training Range. They were driving by Papus Lake and when driving by, he saw some open hanger doors, some open doors in the side of a mountain and the major said, "I bet you know what we do in there." No way. And he continued on. He never worked at S4 in a formal capacity when he transitioned to Edwards, but, you know, he had direct exposure to the site of S4. And he saw a hanger door open in the side of the mountain. Would he have described it the same way, like, did you, when speaking to this person, did you ever question him on what Bob saw? No, I didn't. And what's interesting is he was kind of jaded to this. It wasn't that surprising to him anymore. Right. He's seen some shit. This was, he spent years within this program according to him, so it was just a hanger door. Another day in the office, yeah, he would wake up, go to work, the most insane vehicles that had capabilities that would defy much logic would be brought in. Various tests would be done. He'd go home. And then, of course, after that, he moved to the Pentagon in various positions connected to Air Force acquisitions. And in this position, he directly observed an enormous amounts of money being siphoned off to go to black projects before any sort of opportunity for review for Air Force financial management systems. Whoa. It is, in my opinion, one of the most important witness testimonies we could have. It's, it's critical to the subject, not because he has like documents and briefings, but because he can specifically say, hey, when I worked here, this money was slashed. This is where the budget went before it was slashed. This is where it went after exactly. Fallen paper. Yeah, exactly. Then you get, then you get subpoenas, you get people kicking down doors if they follow the money. Well, you said, like, if this guy comes out, is there, is this somebody you expect to come forward eventually? I don't know. I would hope so, but I would hope it would be in, I would hope it'd be in a manner where he could have as much impact as possible. I think his testimony is so important for people to hear because it's a congress. I would hope so. Yes. Yes. I would like to see him sworn in before Congress. If I had to, anybody in a skiff, okay, he has. So they're aware of him. Yes. That blows my mind. So I hear these stories over and over again about Congress, like bringing people in from, you know, various departments and having these life world altering conversations inside the skiff and then no slight to the witnesses that were brought up because I think they're great witnesses and I think, you know, they're very brave doing so. But we have first hand accounts of people not witnessing anomalous activity on base, first hand account of people actively working with the technology, yes. And that has yet to be presented in front of Congress. And yet we hear stories over and over again. Why is that? You know, I don't know at least in, at least in the public hearings we have had, I haven't been outside of two witnesses that have spoken and of course, George Natt, but he's in the lane of his own. I outside of Dave Grush and Dylan Borland, I haven't been overly impressed with the witnesses just in terms of exposure to the actual legacy programs. Sure. Sure. I think most people would agree with that too. Like they're, it's anecdotal, which is still important. But nothing we haven't heard on a podcast, let's say, right? Right. What you're talking about is vastly different. This could potentially, you know, really kick down doors if this was brought in front of the right people. And it seems like one of the Congress people who is actually acting on some of this stuff is burlison. You know, he's talked about wanting to visit various sites. Now I think he should probably stop talking about where he wants to visit because stuff could moved or stuff could be literally buried, yeah, that's good, it hurts, and so forth. But you know, he wants to go to these sites. I think you need operational surprise, just as with the subpoenas or interrogatories to send to people, you need operational surprise, you need to catch them on the back foot. You know, for 80 years, at least at this point, the legacy programs have been always one step ahead, being able to outsmart and basically work alongside traditional US government elements without having much exposure. Do you think these establishments have protocols for when people show up like that? You know what's interesting? Yeah, I think there are teams that threaten prospective whistleblowers with reprisals. But not only whistleblowers, but let's say a congressman shows up with like his whole gang of whatever, and they roll up in these black SUVs and they have their own security and they got presidential orders or whatever it is. Open up the hangar, I want to see what's inside. Do you think the people there are prepared for that? Because in my experience, as a magician, as much as that doesn't matter to this whole topic, we call that having an out. And so we go in performing as if nothing's going to go wrong, but if something does go wrong, I have a thousand ways of course correcting so that it felt like nothing went wrong. And, you know, I can see these tactics being sort of translated into this as well that if I showed up it, you know, Edwards Air Force Base or any of these other facilities, that they would route you to, you know, a specific area while they're moving stuff around. Like, do you really think that that's how we're going to get to these things? Absolutely not. Then what's, how do we, how do we make them force them to show their hand? Like, what's the answer there? I think he, part of the solution is a long game. And that's not to just try and brute force a disclosure right now, even though I think that needs to be done. I think that the American people and humans at large deserve to know that the reality of non-human intelligence and legacy programs. But for the legacy programs, specifically subtly shift oversight back into traditional oversight channels. And that's to basically retain the reigns of legacy programs. I mean, you know, we heard it earlier from Jesse when we were chatting with Jesse and you hear it very often that the structure of legacy programs today is not some monolithic tight order. It's, it's like Jesse set a blind man trying to touch an elephant. It is a scattered fiefdom of different programs siloed from one another that all kind of do their own thing. Some of them coordinate, some of them work across compartments, but it's effectively the legacy structure that arose in the days of the atomic energy commission has been scattered into the wind. So you got to somehow pick up the pieces, bring programs and bring enough programs and program executive officers and senior executive service under your wing to be able to shift the tie to transition legacy programs back under full oversight of the executive branch, the national security council. And it's a Herculean task. I mean, I was going to say because not only is it a Herculean task to do this with one department, you're talking about departments who don't even speak to each other, right? Like they have their own oversight, their own way of doing things, their own way of dealing with whatever information they're trying to keep secret. And so going into these different, differently structured departments are is probably, you know, we'll take years to disseminate just even one of them. Right. And but it can be done just with enough legwork. The US government isn't that smart. It's not drumming up new program executive officers and SES and cover programs. It's using existing infrastructure. And that's kind of what I try to convey in the Air Force program. It's not some nebulous or amorphous control group in the Air Force that runs these programs. No, it is indeed the SAFAQ SAFA acquisition. The Rapid Capabilities Office, RCO in conjunction with SAFA, the administrative assistant to the secretary of the Air Force and AFTE Air Force test and evaluation, specifically AFTEZ special programs under TNE. So this infrastructure can be traced and you can identify people within the, the programs. It's just not a traditional oversight structure than that's Air Force. And you got Navy, right? Exactly. I mean, space wars. You got all these different. And then you got compartments, Army. Yeah. And then you got high profile figures trying to gaslight the American public into believing only certain elements are involved in the legacy programs, which I think is absolutely abhorrent because the Navy, for example, take a good hard look at the Office of Naval Intelligence, Office of Naval Research, some of their historically special projects and so forth. And Army, go ahead and look at Army test and evaluation command out there at Dougway. Go look at early 2000s efforts to modernize the US warfighter enter the Army. It's, you know, it's not just like some figures would paint the CIA prime contractors DOE. No, there's a lot more cogs to this machine. I think people realize watching your videos makes that very apparent to me. It puts in perspective sort of what I initially thought, you know, in an extremely sort of naive way, the program looked like. Yeah. And then to be shown on one of your videos, that's three and a half hours long, about one pro like one specific part of the program and I go, oh, yeah, it's none of it's that simple. And, you know, it does, it's almost maybe by design, discouragingly complicated. Right. And it's tough to follow because it's skips traditional chains of oversight, right? So you only read in need to know personnel within within the Department of the Air Force structure, for example. And, you know, that Air Force project I have to say is the most confident I've ever put I've ever been in any singular thing I've ever put out. Now I remember I did I was listening to it and I was like, he's really saying these things like they are the things that he said. Yeah. You're not like I think or, you know, perhaps with the utmost conviction, there needs to be a subpoenas or way to get subpoena interrogatories to people including Lieutenant General Donna Shifton, Randall G. Walden, William E. McClure, Russell E. Wiler, Terry Phillips, biggest one there, Lee M. Russ, John T. Manclark, Edward C. Aldrich, you know, I could go on and on, but those individuals there, I got to think that somebody listening to this podcast knows one of these people, like is a nephew or niece or like a cousin and be like, he just named my uncle, you know, there's, it's got to happen. It's happened before with other, you know, people adjacent to the program that heard something and they're like, oh, my uncle worked for eG&G or whatnot. Yeah. It happens a lot. You know, these videos, they reach certain people. Do you have any, do you have any proof that people of that ilk watch your videos? And maybe not family. No, not family, but I mean, people who, you know, who are part of the program. Do you have any proof of that that like you've gotten a wink? Yeah. Other than, other than just the witnesses you're currently talking to, but do you ever get like a little email, it's like, hey, you were on the money here. But all, yeah, all the time are like, yeah, I'll get a text saying, oh, you know, AFO S.I. Air Force Office of Special Investigation. It's definitely flagged your last video. What? A winky face, which I wouldn't be surprised, right? We talk about AFO S.I. P.J. Office of Special Projects. Who texts you from the OSI? No, not somebody from the OSI, but somebody who, you know, would, might know if some people, interesting people are watching one of my videos or something like that. Yeah. Oh, it's an air. And an NHI as well. Yeah. And that, well, that's something, you know, we've been talking about quite a bit, the keely and type, men and black, but also, you know, high profile figures in the subject, not whistleblowers, but more media personalities, you know, saying like, oh, you know, people are telling me not to talk to you and stuff like that. You ever notice how some podcasts feel like pressure chambers? We're talking high stakes. Whistleblowers, physicists, people have seen things they probably weren't supposed to see. The room gets intense. There's enough pressure without me worrying about something is dumb as body odor. The last thing I'd want is a guest sitting across from me, mid-revelation distracted because I didn't handle something basic. And that's why I use mando. What I genuinely like about mando is that it's a whole body deodorant, not just underarms. Anywhere odor can happen. Pit, thighs, folds, feet, you're covered. I use a solid stick daily, and it's powered by mandelic acid to stop odor before it starts. It was actually created by a doctor who saw firsthand how often normal body odor was being misdiagnosed and mistreated. And it's clinically proven to block body odor all day and control odor for up to 72 hours. That's real confidence in high-pressure situations. I've built it into my routine before recording, before live shows, before travel. It removes one more variable. And when you're navigating intense conversations, removing variables matters. So if you want to try America's number one whole body deodorant formula, head to shopmando.com and use code Area52 for 20% off site-wide plus free shipping. Again, go to shopmando.com, use code Area52 for 20% off plus free shipping and support the show. One less distraction, one less unknown. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Jell-to-miss technology locks in your look for up to twenty. 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. Try new groupie setting mist from Mavily, New York. - Maybe it's Mavily. (soft music) - And it's important to say that in terms of legacy programs, I don't have, I don't know everything. I don't have all the answers far from it. It's such a tangled web that I could probably spend my entire life trying to figure out an unravel and still be an arm's length away, always. - And that's what kind of I see from this. There's like a by design and institutional confusion that perhaps just discourages looking into it any further. Because if you're not someone who is obsessed with this stuff, like you are, you're pretty much going in blind and getting sigh-op left and right. Like there's no way for me. And I'm pretty well versed in this conversation as far as like a lay person goes. But nowhere near having any knowledge that would help me navigate the inner workings of this as well as you do. And so I fear that somebody with even less knowledge than myself on this particular subject is calling the shots on how to get the information out there. And that's what I keep bringing it back to. I'm like, when are we gonna look to people like you to help move this forward? Because it doesn't make any sense otherwise. - If they call out serve, I mean, I was in that boat too. Before Dave Hirush spoke in 2023, the subject of legacy programs or UFO crash of people reverse engineering was just kind of like an amorphous or nebulous blob to me that I just thought the big day in the US government were in charge of such operations. - Most do. I had like a very come to light moment watching Dave testify in front of Congress where I was able to start slowly picking up pieces. And then over the last two years, there's been nearly a dozen first-hand legacy people, all of whom I have reached out to and spent many months trying to get in contact with just to learn and pick up pieces and put things together and just gain a greater understanding. So that's just the mission, trying to be able to understand the legacy program structure, what they do, who's involved. And the history of legacy, how legacy became such a scattered fiefdom, what corporations are involved, what FFRDCs are involved, all of this, just trying to understand a little more every day and communicate that. - On a more woo angle, do you ever feel like you get downloads? - I wouldn't say downloads. I would say that I have been fortunate to have some weird, like awesome synchronicities. In my time, when I was thinking about doing the Aztec project, I kept going back and forth, 'cause this was before I had really, really, really had got a good understanding of the 1948 Aztec New Mexico crash retrieval. And, you know, I was wishy-washy on it. I knew some of the debunks. I now, I'm fully convinced that I was a real crash. And I was just debating it, you know, do I buy William Steinman's $300 book on Aztec? And I pulled up Jesse's video with Ross Colthart, right? It's like a three hour long video. I pull it up, I just go to a random part in the video 'cause I just want to see what they're talking about. And the exact second I went to is Ross saying, oh yeah, Nat Cobitz told me that, you know, Aztec was a real crash. I just said, I think this is a sign for me, also with Ed from the Hidden Wing, 18 months. I had been trying to talk to him, at least 18 months, forever, trying to talk to him for so long. And I'm inside a grocery store, and I'm just thinking, gosh, like, do I call his number again? And then he texted me. So it was just some very fortunate synchronicity he said, at some times during this that I just don't know how they happen. And so do you find yourself sort of listening to those synchronicities more as they come up now? If they come up 'cause they're super rare. Yeah. So if something comes up like that, I'm going to listen and keep pulling on that thread. And, you know, so far it lead to extremely fruitful things with Aztec and Ed. I'm definitely forgetting a few more 'cause there have been a couple, but all very interesting. Yeah, I can't help but think that that, I don't even know what category to put that in. And I think most people would feel the same because synchronicities look identical to coincidences. By nature, it's the definition of a coincidence, but you put meaning behind it. And it might be hard for someone on the outside to be like, oh, it's just a coincidence. I don't really get the synchronicity thing, but when you have these things happen in and around this particular space, the UFO phenomenon, somehow there's like more, not more merit, but more weight to the synchronicities because you're actually somehow, at least at the very least, affecting your own ontology. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's extra interesting, right? Because in this subject, I solely deal with crash retrievals and programs. Like, I don't really deal with experiencers, abductions, woof stuff. It's all very hard paper trail stuff. And the subject of synchronicities would come up even less than what I specialize in, which has very little of woo if you want to call it. So something like that happens, I'll listen. But surprisingly, there seems to be a connection between people who are really deep into UFOs and whatever's beyond that, whether that's the consciousness factor or that's the trippy science or whatever it is. But there does seem to be a line when you get into UFOs where you're like, you're gung-ho nuts and bolts. And then you get past that and you go, oh, there's a whole other thing here, that controls these things or that might even be the deeper secret. Especially dealing with this objective, like psychotronic technologies. Weapons. Exactly. I still think, I know I talk about this a lot, I still think this was conveyed so well when Dave Grush went on Rogan. Sure, yeah. And this to me has kind of bridged the two subjects. Joe and Dave Grush are talking about how put off the Stargate program, remote viewing, all sorts of interesting things. And Dave Grush basically says, well, what if some of these psychic, style, psionic programs were created so that the agency, the CIA and other institutions could figure out how to unlock some craft they had sitting in a warehouse. To further that, the subject of like a mind machine interface, if you wanna call it that, to use a pretty technical term, is not new, you know, you go back to Phil Corso in his manuscripts, yeah, Don of a new age. Well, one of the things the foreign technology division wanted to do according to him was power, ballistic missiles with brain waves. Right, these headbands that they would have, they had been transceivered, yeah, exactly. That can be found all throughout Leonard Stringfield's Crash Trivals 1 through 7 of witnesses to crash retrievals in their 1940s and '50s. Mm-hmm. Yeah, interesting stuff. I got a question also I wanted to talk to you about. Recently, we just watched a clip of Donald Trump reacting to what Barack Obama actually ran back, but this statement of, you know, broxing was, he was being asked if aliens are real and he just kinda like as he sipping his coffee went, Oh, aliens are real, but they're not at Area 51. And in fact, there's no underground at Area 51. Like, first of all, as a magician, I'm like, yeah, classic shitty misdirect there. Like, we're not talking about Area 51 or underground stuff, but now I know that's real, 'cause you're trying to, you know, there's an obvious reason to misdirect their away from aliens, but ran it back in the comments and on Instagram or something he was probably told by some handlers, you know, hey, you got it, you got it, you know, clear this up, it's getting too much traction. And then Trump in Air Force One, I presume. This is breaking, yeah, that's just happening. Yeah, it just happened, goes, well, he shouldn't have said that. And he goes, as classified information, if he said it, as classified, classic Trump being like, you know, he's breaking the law, we're gonna arrest him. But he reacted really strangely. Not how normal people would have assumed. I don't think any of us assumed he would have reacted that way. Right. But what a great idea to stoke disclosure, at least like sort of invoke disclosure by pissing off Trump and telling him Obama did it first. Yeah. Well, there's so much to unpack here. Starting with Obama's original statement. You know, since he left office, Obama has made a couple startling statements about, you know, UFOs and aliens and so forth. And I would like to talk about a whole weird effort that connects to the A-tip Viasco and DNI clapper under Obama and all that. But, you know, Obama chooses the words area 51 very carefully. Remember, area 51 was not officially declassified until the Obama administration. If you want to say there's no underground facilities below area 51, homie specifically, that might be true, but what about S4? What about Tony Patestrange? What about the numerous sites nearby? But even that's not true. Remember, our good friend Luigi Vendetilli has found 20,000 plus photographs of EG&G. EG&G special projects, coring out tunnels for testing and various purposes all throughout the Nevada test site, which of course houses area 51 in the larger Nevada test and training range. And it's that place is riddled with old minds, right? Borex. Yeah, exactly. That they just retrofitted into, you know, These, sorry, these underground facilities. which is way cheaper than just boring it out yourself as well, as the works mostly done for you. So I think with Obama, there's a much larger story to be told to, a rather nefarious one if you ask me. Now, I want to I want to preface this the last time I kind of spoke about Elizondo on my video on the NRO and on Jessie's podcast. Some folks connected with Lou reached out to me and said, Hey, you better be careful talking about him or he'll sue you. So I'm just going to say again, we're we're we are mulling over ideas here and we are just hypothesizing and thinking here, understood, alleging statements. Okay, understood. So under Obama, and this is where the clip starts right here. So of course, Dave Grush recently came on Megan Kelly and said that DNI, director of national intelligence James Clapper and his PDD DNI, principal deputy director of national intelligence, Stephanie O'Sullivan, we're not only aware of the crash retrieval issue, but also managed it in the senior capacity. And this is under the Obama administration. The man who would have briefed Obama that briefed Obama on all sorts of intelligence activities was a man who was, I think just I think his title was deputy director of national intelligence, a man by the name of Michael Dempsey. This guy ran in the same cohort as Clapper and O'Sullivan. And he now, of course, is a senior vice president for government affairs at where else but north of Grumman. Anyways, under under that same vein of Clapper O'Sullivan and Dempsey serving senior roles in legacy programs, there seem to be a coordinated effort to set up a presidential candidate as the disclosure president. That would have been the next democratic incumbent after Obama Hillary Clinton. In my opinion, the AIT program was an informal working group, not a real program besides anything written on a couple pieces of paper that was directed, not directed, but the man at the helm was Lou Elisando. And this was an effort to drum Hillary Clinton up as the disclosure president. And that involved folks like Hillary Clinton, John Podesta, of course, Hillary Clinton's campaign manager and so forth. And when this plan kind of failed and Trump got an office, then that whole crew and AIT kind of shifted towards targeting Lou Elisand, I mean, sorry, Tom DeLong and to the stars academy. I think this was a very nefarious type of operation to bring about a limited disclosure. If you look at Lou Elisando's early public appearances, especially the videos he released with Chris Mellon, who Chris Mellon was a, I think, an assistant deputy director in the USDI undersecretary for defense for intelligence, a pretty strange position that also was held later on by Ronald Maltry, who would stand up arrow and appoint his good friend, Sean Kirkpatrick as director. But I digress. There seems to be a very nefarious plan to give partial disclosure, not of crash retrievals, not of reverse engineering, not of knowledge of nonhuman intelligence, but just the present of an amorphous threat of nonhuman intelligence. And this is what I believe Mellon and Lou Elisando try to push with the New York Times article and the videos they brought forth. Someone should ask Leslie Cain if Lou has ever presented a hard piece of paper that said he was director of AITIP on it. I challenge you, you will not, because AITIP was not a real program. If anything, AITIP operated in a weird cover between the OSAT program and the UFO legacy programs to further this weird limited disclosure mission. It's a very strange thing. And you can start to see weird milestones in that. Like, when did Lou Elisando start talking about UFO crash retrievals? That was after David Grush went public. You will not find him speaking about it beforehand. And so it seems like that whole crew has always been on the back foot trying to play ketchup now because a dishonest and incomplete disclosure plan was at play to drum up Hillary Clinton like this. And the bridge between Clapper and the bridge between Lou Elisando, I wonder who provided Lou Elisando the top cover for the AITIP mission. And I would not be surprised if it was Clapper. Shortly before he left federal service whilst he was serving as liaison to the NRO. No, no, I'm sorry. He left federal office and served as liaison to the NRO for TTSA. Looser of the very high position within the DOD under the USDI. This was a position that effectively does liaison coordination between SAPS and a special access programs at a very high level. This is one of the most cleared positions within the entire United States. Second only to the US Secretary of Defense more cleared than the DOD SAPCO or director of the special access program central office. So what are you saying? So some some SAPCOs in the past include H. Marshall Ward, a former Air Force general, which if you look in like the Wilson Davis notes, which are kind of kind of weird kind of bizarre. But I still believe the fundamental facts of that are true. The director of SAPCO gave Thomas Wilson direct places to look within the USDI AT&L at that time. Under Secretary of Defense for AITIP and Technology and Logistics to look for UFO legacy program records. What I'm saying here is I would not be surprised if Lou has not been completely forthcoming with his involvement in legacy programs before the AITIP cover program. So what capacity was Lou involved in in your hypothesis will say in your speculating what capacity was he involved in the legacy program. I'm speculating and I'm playing a character here. Well, I, you know, I think there should be a chance the same chance Jeremy Corbell gave Lou when he and George Napier doing a review of the age of disclosure. And I'll say that if Lou Elisando had a position within the legacy program, he should just come out and talk about it. I mean, it's a big pill for people to swallow. Have you heard from Lou at all after, you know, talking about this? There was no, no, there was one point early on. Because if that's true, let's say on, on, on, on an if, there's no chance that he wants that information out there. No. But I also see like a path to sort of redemption available. If he did choose to come out and if this was true. Yeah. But if not, let's say if he wants to categorically deny this, why not do so? You know, why not outright deny it then? Well, I think a lot of the time the wrong accusations are leveraged against Lou. Okay. And a lot of those time, those accusations are leveraged mostly around the Twitter space and online, Twitter drama, the counter intel stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think the conversation is bigger than that. And that is Lou having prior involvement and do an A tip being a cover program. He does have a chance to be an American hero to to come clean about that stuff. I know he doesn't want to reveal classified information and that's fine. But if he has played a larger role in the structure of these programs and especially served under somebody like Clapper for this effort to, you know, both of them up here in the age of disclosure, three clips, totally less than a minute of Clapper. It would be a good time and it would be a good time to do that and be plain. And this would help the disclosure movement tremendously with partial and inaccurate and, you know, unsustainable, weird cover programs. There will never be an effective disclosure through those channels. And and that in my opinion involves Lou allegedly, Lou Eluzondo, Chris Mellon, and the ASAP crew. Yeah. That's really interesting. I mean, you think that'll ever happen? No. There's seemingly clinging to it. I mean, in the age of disclosure documentary, everyone from Eric Davis to how put off was labeled as an A-tip scientist. Yeah. Not ASAP. Yeah. That was a very weird directorial choice. Not ASAP, not ASAP, not ASAP, not ASAP, not ASAP, not ASAP, not ASAP. No. Yeah. And I know that was filmed maybe two years ago, but, but the age of disclosure now and those figures specifically put off Eluzondo and Eric Davis and Jay Stratner, trying to present a false and incomplete UFO legacy program outline. And, you know, people have said, like, how do I know better than former intelligence officials? Well, I'll challenge you that most of these officials have not been completely forthcoming with their involvement in programs, as well as Eric Davis has, you know, offered me like plenty of lies in the past about certain things. And and that certain structure they're presenting in the age of disclosure, which involves the CIA's directorate of science and technology as the manager of the crash retrieval portfolio with the Department of Energy Defense Industrial-based Prime Contractors. You can think of the big five there, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon Boeing, blah, blah, blah, and the Air Force being the only four elements within legacy programs. Who do you think is at the head of that structure? It's the National Security Council. Why is that left out? But that's not even to say there's no include inclusion of the Navy. Maybe somebody should ask Jay Stratton why the Owen I was not in there. Maybe somebody should ask Jay Stratton to go chat about Stephanie O'Sullivan, you know, who formerly served in Owen I who was PDD and I under Clapper and former CIA DSNT Deputy Director. That Dave Grush had the stones to name, but nobody in the age of disclosure or that would would ever bring forth a name like that. And why didn't Clapper talk about her when she worked directly under him? These questions must be asked and it's rather sinister. Do you think sinister or once again, just this really, really confusing web of sort of chain of command? Like I mean, for myself, I would plead ignorance to if I made a documentary and interviewed all those people and didn't ask the questions that you're asking, right? I would want to do a follow-up documentary and get you to help, right? Because, you know, because that would, and so, you know, I can't assume that that's not the case either that, you know, perhaps there wasn't an actual, you know, sinister motive behind not asking certain questions, but even just the lack of this knowledge, which seems to be, you know, for me, if true, kind of groundbreaking. We are recently Dan Farrow went on a podcast and kind of responded to criticism. system of the legacy program structure, I can only guess, you know, without being ecotistical that that was a response to my criticism, because I've been so vocal about it, you know, on some large platforms. But he was pretty adamant sticking through the four elements of legacy as he was told and said, every intelligence official life I've been told said the same thing. So to me, it says that Dan Farah hasn't gone further and that's not necessarily a problem. He's just putting in the documentary what he was exposed to it and doesn't know further things than that, because his argument was was incomplete and I don't think fully formed. So I can't fault Dan Farah for that. I do fault the characters in the film. Interesting man. This is, you ever get, you ever get freaked out by what you uncover? Yeah, but it's mostly frustration. Really? Yes. You don't, you don't feel a sense of like, because I feel a sense of like holy shit. Well, I don't know if you feel that or not, but that's, these are holy shit moments. I've had a couple, like, internal freakouts when doing certain videos. One was talking about the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane. That was all fine in the past. Right. The most recent, the most recent video talking about Terry Phillips, you know, I'll give a quick brief overview again, because I really want to challenge the UFO'site guys to enter this gatekeeper's name and the same conversations they do, Clint Gaffney, that they do Doug Wolf, that they do Dick Cheney. In fact, Terry Phillips started his career as an Air Force officer. He eventually transitioned to AFOSI trained in counterintelligence field operations and so forth. Within OSI, he moved on to a compartment of OSI, the Office of Special Investigations, think of like, you know, the Air Force's secret service. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Exactly. And so forth. Weirdly enough, they have a major facility at the Naval Surface Warfare Center dogren, which is a dogren is, I think dogrens in Virginia, I'm almost positive, which is kind of weird. Why would OSI be out in dogren? Apparently, it's like a joint space space type monitoring. I can't. Well, Virginia is, I mean, right, you know, but at dogren, but Terry Phillips becomes executive director of AFOSIPJ. Not only that, he becomes Air Force SAP Special Access Program security director for the entire Air Force. Well, after that, he moves to Latos. Latos, of course, was spun off from SAIC, Science Applications International Corporation. If you've never heard of SAIC before, Bobby Rayanman served as a very high-ranking individual within SAIC. Very spooky stuff goes on there. Exactly. They, of course, took the Stargate from SRI and so forth. And then Terry Phillips is now the vice president for security at Nunnell's, but North of Grumman. So this is a man who I would, I would very highly recommend the administration, not just to serve interrogatories to, but to effectively game out a way to extract testimony from this individual. So around AFOSIPJ, again, Office of Special Projects, there have been several first-handers I have spoken to have received reprisals, whether that be threats to their life, their pension, saying, hey, you better pay this amount in child support or you're going to jail, stuff like that. And this is oftentimes from elements of the FBI. In the, I think, 1970s, late '70s or early '80s, the FBI was elements of the FBI, a small select number of agents were selected by OSIPJ to work together. And this was under the Guardian Angel program to protect saps like tacit blue. There were a couple B2, spirit bombers that were trying to conduct espionage that the Guardian Angel program caught in through in jail, so I'd be really interested and actually quite confident that OSIPJ and their cadre of FBI agents have had a direct hand in threatening whistleblowers and actively engaging in reprisals against prospective whistleblowers. Yeah. The FBI thing is strange too because there's obviously a sorted history there of them covering stuff up. Yeah. But then also recently, isn't the FBI like, I guess, like sort of one of the departments that's at least at face value sort of pushing forward disclosure, like behind the scenes? Supposedly, but there's probably even factionality in there, right? You think back to Clapper serving as, you know, the head of the crash retrieval portfolio out of the National Security Council or tied to the National Security Council. If ATIP was a cover program that leu directed under Clapper, then even somebody like Clapper wanted partial disclosure, but then there were other elements of legacy that wanted to stop that. So, you know, there seems to be fiefdoms and opposing parties and factions everywhere. And I think there are traceable times that you can find when that happened. Of course, we talked about that earlier. I won't rehash the whole thing because it's a really long type of discussion. And if you're interested to learn more for anybody watching, Edward C. Aldrich, of course, as we talked about him, has this one of the most highly credentialed CVs I've ever seen under Secretary of the Air Force, Secretary of the Air Force, director of the NRO. He was a senior vice president or president of McDonald Douglas. He was a high individual, maybe a board of directors for LTV aerospace, LTV aerospace became eSystems, which was a CIA shell company then bought by Raytheon and he was CEO of the Aerospace Corporation. Well, in the early '80s, when he was under Secretary of the Air Force, Aldrich created a group of, he didn't create them, but he rolled a group of Air Force outside activities, which were activities that existed outside of the Air Force that the Air Force had operational and administrative control over and rolled them under the SAFAA, the administrative assistant to the Secretary of the Air Force. He did this when bypassing traditional Air Force SAPS structure like AAC, info/special axis program, oversight/security, it's a really long acronym even I get tripped up. But that should be like a huge red flag for anybody interested in legacy programs, actually looking at somebody in this position bypassing traditional oversight channels and traditional SAPS security structure and like placing outside activities that aren't even in the Air Force under a cover office, that being the SAFAA. So I think there are instances, and this was done during a period of great SAPS reforms in the late '70s and early '80s. So there are times I think you can trace when legacy started to fracture and compartment and get scattered into the wind. Yeah, I suppose, and again, it just like strengthens the idea that this is just like some boys club, because these guys just jump from position to position, to boards, to boards, to, they go from private to military, military to private, they go, you know, they're running their VP here, President here, CEO here, and it does seem like that's all it takes is like get to the top, and then you get shuffled around into various compartmentalized sort of aspect to the program. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You trade in your, I always say you trade in your military suit, your dress for start, you're trading your stars and stripes suit, stars and stripes for a pinstripe suit and just do the same thing with more pain. That's a revolving door of, of the who's who at the top, and if you look, if you go back in history and look at the proposed MJ 12 list, I mean, those guys are all the, of the same type, they're, they were head of this, head of that, head of that, you know, a president of, of this, you know, of Harvard, whatever, and like, and they were just transferring over to these different places, like at the top, again, like it's just, it's so hard for me. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this to wrap my head around this revolving door because it's a, it's a, it's a merry go round. It's more than that. It's a maze of purposely confusing structure. I don't even believe that anybody who's, I can't believe that anybody in that top position even knows half of what you know. The last one was Dick Cheney and he's dad, the probably closest thing we had to him was Clapper. Right. Of somebody who's aware of like the big picture overhead silo programs, that's probably the closest thing we have the beast. Because again, it, it seems like the early efforts for the legacy programs was a Manhattan Project 2.0. I'd actually like to get your opinion on the, the majestic 12 too. Do you think it was a real organization or, or not? Do you think it's just a UFO lore? I, I tend to lean, I'm over 50% conviction that it, that the MJ 12 was real. Just based on, you know, a lot of the work that's out there already on the documents, the Psalm 1 documents, Ryan Woods, there's a lot of work on that. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Woods. You know, there's an obviously, you know, Stanton Freeman put in a lot of work too and there's just a ton of corroborating evidence that at least the papers themselves, including, you know, the font, the typewriter, the, you know, these type of like piece of evidence work out that, yeah, this was real. This is all, you know, from the era. Now, the information in that, I mean, I look at, I look at the Eisenhower briefing and I feel like that's real. I feel like the twining memo is real. Yeah. There's like a few of them. Now, in all of that, there are probably, you know, there's probably passage material somewhere and there's probably stuff that's just completely concocted and fabricated. But I think the core ones, like the song, I think the Psalm 1 is real, wasn't, who was talking [BLANK_AUDIO] about it, Tim Phillips. - Tim Phillips. - Deputy director of Arrow. - Yeah, that was really interesting that that was brought up and wasn't like, there wasn't like an off-camera conversation where he was confirming that like, oh yeah, this is exactly what we were looking at. - And also described two different documents on versus off-camera. - That's right. - Off-camera, he would say this document had no like illustrations, but was still like a complex, like extraterrestrial craft retrieval manual. Off-air, he would say, oh, it's chock full of documents with which the Psalm 101 is. There's pictures of boxes on how to box up. - Exactly, material. - And Psalm, and Psalm 1's the special operations manual on essentially a guide to craft retrieval. Like that might be also, I'm not opposed to the idea of that being based on the actual document. - Right. - And not being the actual document in some type of like limited disclosure way that it was put out to the public. Not unlike some of the 4chan whistle blowing going on. Whenever that's brought up, people tend to wince, but that initial 4chan document, that initial Q&A that happened on 4chan, we were talking about this off-camera. And I'm pretty high conviction, I get higher and higher conviction as time goes on, that this was a legitimate person or at least one person who was connected to a very, very, very deep part of the program. And a part of the program that is so, you know, I mean, one of the darkest depths of the program, I'm sure like past the levels of, you know, potentially where Bob Lazar was implicated, like way further in. And possibly the deepest, I guess, confession that we've ever had if real. - Yeah. I gotta say, I do agree with you that I think the overwhelming majority of the USO mothership, two spec printing factory, 4chan whistleblower is legit, outside of a couple of things I think he was trying to fill in his own gaps of information on. And that includes when he talks about the craft approaching the mothership underwater, getting like eviscerated and obliterated often. I think that might be a stretch. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around element 115, of course. So I still have, you know, definitive things to say about that, but you and I were talking off-air. There has been an individual that I have formed close relationship with that served for multiple years within an FFRDC. I'm gonna keep it unnamed here just to keep this guy safety, but he had exposure to various naval programs, legacy programs. And the fundamental truths about the 4chan whistleblower post, he did state to me, we're true. And that is a large ship that hardly ever leaves the Bermuda area of the ocean that seemingly builds tic-tacs and other shaped craft to spec. And this thing seems to be very elusive. You get close to it. It approaches farther into the depths. And it seems to be the zookeeper that doesn't interfere as long as the zoo animals aren't trying to break out of the enclosure. - That's kind of how he put it, too. - Yeah, yeah, it is. - Which is interesting. - Did this gentleman, I assume it's a man, but did this person mention 115 at all in any capacity? No, debunked, no mention of it, no knowledge on it, whatsoever, okay, but he said other than that, 'cause that would have been like a deep, deep part of it. But that might also be the passage material that you throw into a story like that to sort of discredit it to people who are higher up. - So what's interesting to me is I've been trying to game out that there were recent efforts to try to unmask the 4chan whistleblower and shout out those individuals on Reddit who did that. I think I'm a little bit more skeptical there. I don't know how likely it is a Lockheed Martin person would have that sort of institutional history. Of course, the individual named the 4chan whistleblower as an amalgamation of two now deceased senior Lockheed engineers who had liver cancer, I personally think that this sort of knowledge would be somebody from a federally funded research and development center. And somebody who worked in the programs prior to 2011. At least I've been exposed to several select programs in 2011, a lot of the programs work in an onion concept. There's always another layer above and below. To bolster the onion in 2011, there was a ceasing of briefings to program and come in some program history. And that's just to keep knowledge out of risky hands with new ideological people coming in the program. - Yeah, he even mentioned that though in the document. - Well, he mentioned that, I think early 2000s, there was a shift at the top that they clamped down hard after that and it was probably after, I think prior to 9/11 or right after 9/11, there was a shift in power at the top. And this could be when they were looking into perhaps the trillions of dollars the Pentagon was failing on their audits. And that might have been like, oh, they're gonna start coming our way, we gotta clamp down. And so it was mentioned during that time, the early 2000s that there was that. So that might have happened again. - You know, that's intriguing. The early 2000s, you talked about 9/11 because remember when Dave Grush recently went on Megan Kelly, he said that the early 2000s, the onset of the war on terror, so select contractors using IRAD independent research and development funds, which is essentially a contractor can do whatever the hell they want as long as they deem at a national security interest item and then build the DOD for it. So Dave Grush said that the War of Terror Salverious Contractors harness IRAD to try and create their own breakaway programs essentially. Like do their own crash retrieval reverse engineering. - Indeed, I think this is true in specifically in reference to North of Crumman, but that's another story for another day. - That's like the UFO version of the Patriot Act after 9/11. - Yeah, yeah, and if some contractors try to pull away and do their own thing, that would make sense. There would be a shift in institutional knowledge, right? Like let's say that the National Security Council might wanna bring in some new people under Miter. It makes sense not to brief the Miter incumbents if you have fear that North of Crumman's gonna offer them more competitive salary to poach them or something like that to take them into their breakaway programs. - Yeah, yeah, and he was very adamant about that, how things really clamp down. There was like throughout the document, throughout the Q&A, there was like a clear before and after energy that he had witnessed. - I understand that true, to be true as well. I understand that the days of the Manhattan Project 2.0 are long gone and that today in the modern day, there's significant brain drain in the legacy programs. And this is due to the compartmentalization, the silo nature, top talent being elsewhere, maybe in these breakaway programs, the tiredness of the FFRDC. So I understand that true, that there's significant brain drain and the impetus for this occurred in the early 2000s. That's when like the greatness of the pyramid kind of lost its pizzazz. - I will tell you, there was one point. I don't think I've talked about this sort of publicly, but after spending a little bit of time with Bob Lazar, I was curious because I'm a little obsessed with this initial forechand document. I'm one of the purveyors of it online. And you have the most knowledge of it of anybody I've ever met. - Well, 'cause I think it's worth looking at. I read through it meticulously and had help sort of, 'cause forechand assessed pool of comments and you gotta really piece it all together. But thankfully people in my discord helped me do that and we were able to make a coherent sort of Q&A out of it. But when I had a little bit of time alone with Bob and I was able to sort of pick his brain. And I started talking about MJ-12 and sort of, and trying to, I guess, gauge his reaction to all of this stuff and see where his knowledge lies in terms of legacy program. Did he do any deep dives since '89? Was he intrigued at all? I would be, his answer for the most part was, he didn't really look at any of this stuff because of John, John Lear. And you always had all these crazy ideas constantly. And Bob couldn't separate wheat from the chaff and it got to a point where John thought people lived in the sun. And so if you come to, I'd mention Aztec to Bob, the crash, and at first he's like, "Oh, yeah, John, talk to it." You can tell he's a bit reticent and sort of reluctant to want to engage in that. And I was like, "Well, I think Aztec happened." I started going in in details and showing him Simon's work and Scully's work and all of this. And he was starting to come around and be like, "Oh, wow." And like, he was making connections himself with the, especially the craft and whatever. And eventually the conversation got into, you ever heard of this platform called 4chan? There's this whistleblower that mentions your name. And he goes, "Really?" And I go, "Yeah." And then I caught myself saying this and I'm like, "God, I should have said that." It was, I go, he goes, "What do you say?" And I go, "Oh." He basically said, "Well, he talked about 115 that they would extract the 115, the people." There was like four teams. He was on team two. Team one would extract the bodies and 115. Team two would like rip out whatever the loose parts were and team three and four dealt with the bulk of the craft. And so he said that there was 115 and somebody asked about Louis Zondo and Greer and the questions and he goes, "I don't know any of these people, "but one person you didn't name is Bob Usar." And in fact, if you mentioned his name, they would take you out back and put you down like a dog. I told this to Bob and immediately upon telling him, I regret it telling him because what a terrible thing to tell someone. But I was just, I was just so excited to talk to him and like to tell him this thing. And you know, in my head, even though I'm high conviction, There's a part of me that's like, oh, this is lower. - Right, it's fun, yeah. - Yeah, and so I say this. and I see him completely like debalanced. Like put his hand on the desk and go, oh shit, like he had this realization, like, oh, and the energy completely shifted as all I can say. In that moment for me was one of the strongest pieces of holy shit, this is real. This is real for him. This is very real. And again, I'm incredibly high conviction on Bob. In fact, I would go to bat for Bob any day that he did work on this program. And what he's saying is true. But it wasn't until that moment where I saw this human being and it was just him and I. No one else around, no one to perform for or no lies. And it was so off-putting that he lost footing for a second. And I felt so bad for saying that. And I apologized and I was like, I'm sorry, I brought that up. And he goes, no, no, and he was kind of reliving this. And so, you know, I don't know where that stands in all of this story, but it was hearing Bob's name in that document and then being able to talk to Bob and being the first one to sort of tell Bob about this and seeing his reaction. Like it sort of corroborates this in a very fundamental emotional level for me. And maybe not so technical and provable, but definitely as far as just human interaction goes, I went, oh my God. Yeah. Well, I think that's really interesting with the fortune whistleblower says then about, don't say the name, Bob, the star. And yeah. And one, that's really encouraging to see that human side of Bob to see that kind of trauma he faces to think that people might be getting hurt because of him. That's kind of inspiring to see the human side of Bob. That's something I gotta see when I met him, right? Of course, the stage is jeering everybody's clapping, but when I met Bob, he was so gracious and so kind. And again, a boyhood dream come true. But one of the things we talked about at the Austin show that I haven't talked about before. So it might be kind of fun to talk about. But I've said I spent a long time about a year hunting down a guy who claimed to operate in a UFO crash retrieval program. And this was based out of the Nevada test and training range in the early 2000s. This individual would dress up in a mop gear, mission oriented protective posture. And essentially his job was to get debris, help get craft, either load it up onto CHM 847s or get debris into Konex containers to be shipped out. You know, he would follow several scientific teams and several arm teams that, you know, Alpha Bravo, Charlie and Delta. And this guy has claimed to have been on, you know, eight retrievals up to eight really interesting ones, egg-shaped craft was the most common. But he was sheep dipped out of the army according to him, sheep dipped meaning taken elsewhere into a weird black program. And this, the training for this program was out of the Nevada test and training range. And the books they had, the briefing books were from the NRO, NRO joint task force. So this, this crash retrieval team seemed to operate quasi army, quasi NRO. But during their briefings, there were, there was extensive, you know, discussion of program secrecy. You know, you don't even, they use fake names, right? They use to Irish names to, so they don't use their real identity. And you don't talk to your brothers about, you know, your history, your real name, all that. And one of the security briefings was an example of a man who had violated a program protection structure before and caused a cataclysmic shift in the security of the programs. And though he wasn't mentioned by name, the outline security breach was the story of Bob Lazar. - Whoa. - And I've always found that so interesting, 'cause I have to remain agnostic to Bob in my research and in my videos, just because I've been infatuated with his story since a child. I just have to remember that. - But that, and because there is like a sort of, his story is so real, so jarring of real, that it has to be the one that they try and debunk. - Well, and because if they let that one go. - Yeah. - The whole stack of Django blocks falls over. - Another interesting thing about this specific individual, when the C847s, MH47s would deliver craft parts once they were within the Nevada test site, they would be delivered to Papuce Lake in two different areas. So probably the S-bore crowd specifically coming to collect those vehicles. - Right, yeah. - Crazy. Going back to the 4chan guy, this person, I don't believe, also I don't believe that there was like a liver cancer situation. I think that was like the easiest thing to debunk at the whole document, even a lot of the comments were like, so easy to trace. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's not everybody has liver cancer. - I think that's just a throw off the trail. - Definitely. - We talked about this, but on red airing. - Yes, on red it, there was the guy who produced some big low advanced stair space, big low advanced aerospace systems, documents, fast documents and TickTack, claim that TickTack was hours and that there were 2,000 SAPs dealing with UFO legacy programs, which you know, that might be accurate, you don't need that many people to create a SAP and so forth. But this guy also stated he was sick with cancer and that was a lie. Like I know that person, I know who that is and that was just a red herring to completely to try and make interested parties reading that document think that I was old and possibly sick with cancer of old age. - A reason to come public. - Right, because they wouldn't just buy the reason of fuck it. Here you go. Yeah, that makes sense. And you know, there's been a lot of subsequent Reddit/4chan quote unquote leaks or whistleblowers. And a lot of them have been really interesting. A lot of them deal with lore. They go with this map, but there was one, I think the only other one, there's two other ones that I hold in higher conviction than the others. One had to deal with the molecular biologist that sort of goes through the anatomy of the grays that seemingly were pulled from a craft that were like mangled. That one I hold in really high regard because there's so many interesting connections. Have you read that one? - Yeah, I don't have the scientific expertise to be able to get to parse through the information. - Yeah, no, I had to use community and AI to get through that, but for the most part, there are some really, really interesting things that you can look at past all of the organs and the secretion of the excrement through the skin creating this ammonia sense and all of these things that line up with modern alien lore. There is something in where they talk about the brain and he goes, the studying of the microtubules was paramount for him, interesting. - Yeah, that was his, he was given, he had two tasks and the number one task. One was like, I forget what one was, but the one that was more important was sort of gene sequencing or looking at the DNA to figure out what the formula was to create these microtubules that exist in the alien brain. They had brains that were 20% larger and they had a larger lung sac so it could produce more oxygen because they had a bigger brain and needed more oxygen. All these really interesting physical attributes, but the one that really stuck out with me was the microtubules. I'm sure, I'd be interested to hear what like, how I'll put off what I have to say about that. - You should get him on here and also ask him about his exposure with legacy programs. - What's your opinion on how? - Lifelong Spook probably did some work with Northrop Grumman in the past and definitely has not been totally transparent about his involvement, but you're talking about these. - Tell us how you really feel. - Well, you're talking about these reddit and 4chan, like whistleblower ones. Have you read, I think it was May 2024, the XOGA contractor, whistleblower testimony, if you want to call it that. - Is that the one that corroborates the initial 4chan one with where they see the underwater, the giant underwater, USO? - No, it's much more sober than that. It's super simple and it's become one of my favorite, one of these anonymous testimonies. - Can you go, can you say it again? - Yes, so it was taken off of Reddit like any good thing, but it's called XOGA contractor. - I might have read, okay, go ahead. So OGA here in this sense is not the CIA's office of global access started by CIA deputy, DS and he deputy director Doug Wolf back in 2003. OGA here means other government agency, a lot of the time when people retire from special forces or so forth, they'll work under an OGA, meaning they'll contract under an agency that they kind of need to keep vague. So this individual here was part of the Air Force's soft unit, special forces unit, the 24th STS, special tactic squadron, which is a tier one unit under JSOC joint special operations command. This individual claimed, you know, when he was done with service in the 24th STS, he moved on to become a contractor for an OGA. It's probably agency still because he was overseas and when it's overseas, it's probably the CIA. And so he's just doing general contracting and so forth. And you know, he recalls, so he's doing general contracting. And there comes in a flight of C-130s, C-130 planes and there was no manifest that these planes are coming in. There's nothing saying that these are landing, but he sees his old troop chief get off the C-130s and he sees his troop. Chief old troop chief when he was in the 24th STS immediately bored. I think it's a CH-47 helicopter and fly off and he's like my old troop chief That's interesting and previously there had been some weird stuff with his troop chief like you know when they were in the 24th STS The troop chief just randomly disappeared for like a week or so and came back They thought there was a death in his family or something, but he came back The XOGA contractor was also kind of non-plus the troop chief was there in whatever country This was because he knew the troop chief was playing fantasy football in Virginia just a couple days prior because they were in the same league So I think it's had a dawn the next day the plane lands again And or sorry the CH-47s and he sees you know his troop chief another Probably contractors get back onto the C or C-130s the troop chief looks super like Daysed he looks exhausted. He looks confused and the XOGA contractor tries to run up and talk to him And is immediately chastise and gotten trouble. He just heard from the troop chief. We retrieve something And that was it and so this so XOGA contractor is chastise and so forth But cut to when he's done contracting for probably the CIA He finally meets up with Bill troop chief and the troop chief essentially said that he was part of a parallel unit to JSOC joint special operations command that served for retrievals of craft of unknown origin In his many years within JSOC in this parallel unit that have its own silo d'embrella authority He had only been on four either three or four retrievals That recent one why he was so messed up is his Crew was sent out to the retrieval of an egg-shaped craft only a little bit larger than an SUV This craft seemed to just be metallic in a singular color And it seemed to impact the earth at a very fast beat but there wasn't damage There wasn't fire. This thing seemed to be like a bowling ball dropped from the sky right weird just completely ballistic impact damage This like it was like I'm gonna lay it an egg right right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly this troop chief said the air around Decraft felt super and also he felt like there was a weird smell Which kind of combines with Dylan Borland set about the triangle over Langley and Jonathan Wagant with the weird mother of pearl effect And just feeling strange or on the craft he observed this egg was cracked and of course the interior something We've talked about looked like nesting dolls layers upon layers of whole and That was the story that the troop chief was never told what it was just that it was not made by us And that he'd been on similar retrievals before the reason I put so much cranes in this story is just the language used It's ultra specific ultra you know Air Force guy language and that's the type of retrieval encounter I've come to understand this is true and that's the exact protocol for retrievals So and that's what you've sort of encountered as well with a lot of the people that you've spoken to is like these egg Shaped that eggs are very common. I mean, you know a good bit about Jake Barbara was I think the person who a lot of people, you know Refer to when speaking about the egg craft How high is your conviction on that egg video being real? The one that we never got shown ultra high know the one that we did get show. Oh, I don't know about that I don't care about I don't care about that egg video There was supposed to be a different one why it was not shown. I don't know But this video was supposed to be body camera footage who says who? Says individuals that I'm quite close with that you know, I'm not gonna For sure, they're confidence here. Right, but where did you hear this you heard it from them? Mm-hmm. Has anyone else talked about this a couple people and I'm sure people watching now Well, I've heard in rumor circles of a different video that was supposed to grow on go around as far as I've heard as well That's very true. Yeah, this one apparently that they just spoke about recently that it was dropped off in the snow and there's some weird sort of like Yeah, bizarre handling of this the USB key. Right, right, but the that video from what I understand pales and comparison to the video that was supposed to be shown What's the difference? Well, the the video that was shown on news nation is an egg whose size you can't really gait from the camera shot dangling under a single hook on a basically a single rope under a small chopper, but This other video was supposed to be axion body camera footage or helmet cam from a GoPro of a retrieval team actually standing within arm's distance of a retrieved egg's craft and the egg looked the same I've looked white and seem to exhibit a mother of pearl effect a mother to Jonathan Wagant described like oil on water any other details Weird tiling on it weird tiling That's bizarre. I know the weird the weird tiling is strange because This is also what you hear about those giant black Sort of pyramid shaped crafts as well. There's black tiling and then glyphic writing on some craft as well Yeah, that's just so strange. I mean Lou who's sitting there last year. He was telling me that you know for the first time I was like oh you have You've seen writing on eggs before specifically and he goes yes And I was like hold on like etched or and he's like no etched into the egg There's like writing on craft like he confirmed that that he saw those images. That's kind of what I've heard too Really, yeah, one of my favorite crash retrieval cases is really little known But I talk about it a lot. It's a maritime crash retrieval that occurred off the coast of Aberdeen, Scotland in 1992 And it was a DSRV deep submergence rescue vehicle team that pulled up this triangle from like 10,000 feet under water And that this triangle had no cockpit no landing gear seemed to be made of one shape rounded edges But had glyphic writing all around the side of it. Yeah And you see that with Kecksburg as well Yeah, Kecksburg crafts have have that even even the one that Jeremy Weeks saw which was a disc It also had this like glyphic sort of writing you look at Rendlesham same thing. Let me ask you this Chris. Who's that for? I don't know. I don't know you know what I mean because like if if Hypothetically if I am traveling to a different planet and I'm doing reconnaissance or I'm doing anything whatsoever I'm making sure that my craft has no language on it I'm making sure that I don't have a Northrop or a Lockheed sticker on my craft if I'm going to Mars and Exploring another civilization that's living there. The last thing I want to do is for them to like go. Oh You know look at that logo. We've seen that before You're stripping it of all of the things before you're sending it to a planet. Yeah, so what that tells me Like what that might Say about these craft is that a This is this craft isn't meant to be here. Mm-hmm or be there's something here that can identify it Yeah, it almost that practice of like etching in Symbology into a vehicle or something of great importance almost seems archaic to us like that's like putting large Gunkworks decals and stickers on the YouTube spy plane that was shot over yeah over Russia It depends what it depends what it says right right because if it's not just a decal It could say something like oh rescue craft don't worry. We're here or like whatever that is But what I'm saying is that like That that has to be for something right so there's something out there that can read that language Who knows maybe it just says no step in their language like we put on a lot of air but sure But again, but again, you're writing it on a craft and You're you know hovering on this planet with beings who can't read it so why is that so it's either you're not supposed to be there This craft wasn't meant to be here. He's meant to be somewhere else where people can read that or There are people here. I assume people are non-people whatever that can read that right that has to be the only two options Like that could suggest there's a more permanent NHI station that is what else does it suggest? Yeah, it's suggested. It's either not supposed to be here. It's here by mistake or Something can read that that's on the ground. That's like or or elsewhere in the sky that Needs to read it. Well, whether it's the fortune whistleblower or so many other so many other testimonies So there's plenty to reference of a different NHI species with a permanent or semi permanent presence on this planet Yeah, which is both awe inspiring and terrifying to know. We're not the masters of our own planet Do you think do you think OSI is alien? I see in nature. Do you think do you okay? Do you think there is a faction of our government that is hiding the UFO secret that is working alongside NHI and I mean in a very stable and present capacity So that's something we've been talking about and I have to give a firm right now I don't know one because like OSIPJ I am as near confident as one could possibly be in the situation is does tech Protect or does program protection for legacy stuff the non human intelligence type OSI men and black type thing It it like it hears to John keel's idea of men and blacks sort of sure weird NHI There's I know there's so many stories of that so many is that an element that works is that a real element I don't know is an element that works in conjunction with OSI in program protection. I don't know is it a rogue thing of NHI? That's right. How to sweep up. Yeah, it seems to me though that like The way that this has been covered up is much too perfect like My brain defaults to there's no way you can keep a lid on this if it's happening this often we hear so many cases There's no somethings bound to give one of these things is bound to go down a little too close to town Like there's just too many variables here to contain that there either has to be a some type of time Same variable, and I'm not saying time travel, but I'm saying even if you had this magical mirror, let's say this magical piece of glass that could give you, you know, where to go next, that's all you would need, right, or just like show you probabilities of things that might happen if you don't go here, then they just go there. Or you're working alongside something that is far more advanced and that is helping you keep it covered up, because there's no way humans, I don't think, can, can have successfully covered it up without the help of something really extraordinary. Well, I mean, even Dave, Dave Grush has said that agreements have been made with NHI. What are those agreements to sit technology in exchange for various things? Is it guidance and wisdom and what do you think? Maybe new, grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible, all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new, grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie. Maybe technology. You think we traded tech? What do we trade for? I don't know. There's so much lore about tech-traded access to technology for reduction. Rearranged to pick us up however you want. I think that could possibly be true, you know, at least in the abduction phenomenon, phenomena, because it's not just one thing, probably I understand that to be a more recent development rather than like an age-old, ancient abduction thing. You know, maybe there's creans to that theory that technology was exchanged for people, essentially. It makes sense to me why the legacy program structure has largely been kept secret just in terms of how saps work, but you're right in terms of just the general human, yeah, public not stumbling across definitive NHI vehicles, NHI bodies, besides a few select cases like Varsheenia and others. It does seem to be a larger secrecy element at play. Yeah. Or even like, I mean, so many stories of taking photos of them, of the craft, and then those photos either mysteriously disappearing, or even more bizarre feeling compelled to delete them, which I've heard too, yeah, which is a wild thing when you think about it, like you take a photo, crystal clear of a craft hovering in the sky and you say, this is it, this is the one. This is the one that's going to break the world. This is it. It's disclosure. And then you look at it again, and your phone, your thumb goes to the delete button and you go to recently deleted and you delete that too and you go, why did I just do that? Yeah. There's many of people who say they've had extremely close encounters with craft, but consciously think, I will not take out my phone and film this. Right. Which that's so weird. Or completely paralyzed and incapable of doing so. Yeah. I get a lot of phone calls and people who have all sorts of wild testimony. One of them, I mean, a whole video on the black triangle sightings and I've got over, I think. I'm up to between 50 and 100 separate triangles, triangle sightings and not just triangle, I was like a triangle in the sky. It's like low hovering over the head, no noise, darker than the night sky, you know, and just hanging there and then taking off. And there was one guy who is in Germany and I remember this call because he called back three times to try and get his message straight because of the, you know, he's Germany and he's just, he wanted, he wanted to get it, you know, and he's like, I have a, I have a side having a cigarette with my, with my girlfriend at the time and we look in the sky and there was this black triangle and all of a sudden it comes and it goes right in over our heads and we can't move and we are paralyzed. And then it just takes off and then he goes. And now before I was a atheist and now I, I don't know what to believe but I know there's something more and that's how it ended now is like, that's just a confession. That's all that is. Is that the guy from Germany who had redditors recreate his experience because there's a famous triangle sighting from Germany that like our UFOs or reddit community recreated and it's essentially somebody sitting in their backyard that a triangle comes right up to them. It's identical to that guy's, but I've heard a few of those, I've heard a few of those like where they're right above and you can't move. Well, to me, that makes sense because in my opinion, there's non-human triangles and there's our hours too right around. There's one story that I'm kind of working on right now and but the witness said that like when she was in the presence of these beings and this is, this is neither here nor there for this discussion but it's kind of interesting. I thought I'd share that like the beings there and she even though she was in her apartment, she felt like it wasn't her apartment. She felt like I don't, she's like, I felt like I was nowhere like even though I could physically look at my kitchen, I didn't feel like I was in my kitchen and so she's like, I don't know if that was in their ship or something or there was and I thought and I said, oh, that's really interesting because you hear so many tales of these beings, somehow and some capacity controlling the flow of time around a certain area whether that's the craft or the being, you know, there's stories of people sitting under a craft and they feel the grass growing through their toes and like, there's time behaves differently around these, around this technology, around these beings and I thought to myself, well, what would it feel like to be in a timeless space, right? You would have no anchor to reality. All your brain knows how to do is to anchor you through time and space. They're linked. We have time so that we know when we are and where we are, you know, we have time and space, those two things make it so that we're here and now without one of them, I think you lack the other as well, if you take away, just as if you take away space, if I sit you in a black void and there's no time, you will not, you will have no clue about the passage of time. Right. I can have you and they've done this experiment where you write down how slowly time goes by and you're off by months, right? And so, you know, for her maybe, if time didn't exist, you would feel like you're nowhere, even though you can recognize your kitchen, you would be like, this isn't my, I don't know, I'm nowhere. That's interesting. I thought that was a really interesting take. It's also very disturbing to think that another intelligence can basically strip away your like temporal and spatial understanding of where you are. But there's been many weirder things that have happened with abductees, including what you just said about people feeling like they can't move, feeling frozen in front of beans or craft. Yeah. Let me ask you this. In terms of UFO stuff, I don't think we've ever talked about this specific thing subject before. What are your top five crash retrieval cases? And if you're leaving some out, because I talked about this with Jesse and I just forgot to include some of them and I kind of got people saying, why didn't you include this on the spot? It's hard. So just five of your favorite that come to mind. I think Aztec is number one. Nice. Aztec is only because I think I've researched that one more than any other crash. And so therefore, my conviction is very high on it. Kecksburg, I think, is a really interesting one as well. I guess I'm trying to, I'm trying to just think of other ones right now. Like if we, if we were to name a few, okay, Roswell, well, there's multiple in Roswell. I think that it would have been, there's, I heard somewhere from someone that it might have been two crafts that hit each other, that collided. People might be confusing that with this 74 Koyama case, because in that case, so that is a case that's, it's very speculative because it's mostly based upon one weird report that supposedly came out of the agency, but that was where a disc-shaped craft impacted a, a small single engine airplane. Oh, interesting. Whoa. And then the UFO crash, Mexican retrieval team goes to get it, Mexico, Mexican retrieval team is dead. The US likes to say it was from like a contaminant or toxic biohazard within the craft. It was probably because we killed them. Why? It's a great case. It's really interesting. What's the name of that case? Koyame. 1974 Koyame, Mexico. Case. And I can send you the NEP report that this is mostly based on. It's, I love the case. There's also, I mean, Kingman, I think, is one of the big ones, and that one, I think, is the genesis for a lot of what we know about these beings, I think. Right. It was referred to by, I think, Dan Berish, and I really ate that up when he, when he talked to it, I was like, really? And he's like, yeah, that was like, apparently that meeting was, was a planned meeting, but it went down in a different, like, it wasn't supposed to be a crash. Right. It's a strange of, like, biologics, which I thought was really interesting. You know, there's the, there's the historically, like, the lost city of gold, the lost work of Harry Drew on the Kingman case, and according to him, there were three separate cases in late May of 1953, his works called Seven Days in May. And primary witness Arthur Stancell observed the second of the three crashes, and according to Drew, similar to the Aztec case, it was a new experimental radar system, like the Lashup radar that, you know, triangulated radar fields interfered with various systems of the craft, and thus, three crashed. Whoa. Wild. I guess another one if we were to stay out of America would be Shag Harbor. No, you see, that's a great case, yeah, because there's a lot of corroborating evidence there in Shag Harbor as well, and I don't know, there's something about the Maritimes as well that I kind of trust those people out there. There's salt to the earth, you know, and there's a lot of weird things that happened in the Maritimes, too, you know, obviously you're by large bodies of water, but even in Newfoundland there was, what was that big boom that happened? I think in '78, there was like a massive like underground, sort of boom, and this is wild, too, this is a wild case. I researched this recently, I'm forgetting some of the details, but essentially one of the witnesses was biking home as a kid, and like this huge like boom happens, right? Now fences are knocked over, power lines are blowing up, circuit breakers, TVs are burning up, and it was like a large like boom, and this kid even sees this like orb float in front of him. Well, this like colored orb that just like floats in front of him, pulsates and then darts off or disappears. And other witnesses say they witnessed a lot of lights in the area as well, like floating orbs or whatnot, well, they were never given a satisfactory explanation, it wasn't an earthquake, the seismograph never went off, and you know, obviously there's no nuclear testing in the area. But what it did do, it triggered Los Alamos physicists, there was one, I'm forgetting their names, I blanked on their names, but there was a physicist from Los Alamos, and there was a weapons engineer, and both of these people traveled to Newfoundland, which is this island in the East Coast, the Maritimes of Canada, went to this tiny little town, Bell Harbor, I think is the name of the town. And we're taking soil samples, there was military there, there were like men in black telling people, hey, you know, we don't know what this is, whatever, whatever. So I thought that was really interesting, that like a nuclear physicist from Los Alamos at the time, you know, this is still Cold War era, would be traveling because they probably picked up some, you know, some signal. So that's another case in Canada, it's just interesting, but there's no other, there's no physical evidence, there's no crash, there's no sign of a bomb, just something, something happened there that alerted them, and not to mention during that time, they also had the, what is it, the Vela satellite system, which was like this 12, they had like a dozen satellites that were looking out for like gamma ray flashes, and like this is all, you know, in preparation for some type of imminent, you know, nuclear strikes, they had all these satellites running up, and so they might have like picked something up, and that's what signal to them to go there, but neither here nor there, not really crashed, but an interesting Canadian event. I feel as though there are many maritime crash retrieval stories that have just yet to be told, and will we ever hear about them, who knows, but there seem to be quite a few, what's what's your top three. So top three, let me try and be really specific, just so I don't try and leave anything out. And I'll say no Roswell, I will say no Aztec just because, you know, I've devoted so much time to that already, and I'll, I say I do think that was a real, you've moved on from Aztec. To me, it is a real crash retrieval case, where non-human biologics were recovered, and there was a massive cover up, and the primary witnesses to the case were slandered, and William Steinman was able to figure out that dishonest court case, and to hear about the pastor that went there. Yes. Yes. It's talked about, and that pastor's talked about in Scott and Suzanne Ramsey's book. Yeah. Yeah. Wild, right? Mm-hmm. So I'm going to take out Aztec, and I'm going to take out Roswell, of course, and I'll also take out Kexburg, because for me, that's another four times. That's another kind of drive. Yeah. One Kingman. I've covered Kingman before, but there are still so many secrets yet to uncover with Kingman, and just so many people of importance that were named in the Kingman case, whether that be Eric Henry Wang or Dr. Ed Dahl, both of whom, you know, it's so weighing, I talked about in my Air Force project and talked about how he's connected to former major commands in the Air Force that comprise the modern day Air Force material command, and that interesting kind of evolution in how I think Air Force material command inherited a lot of the 1940s, 1950s legacy program elements that involved the Air Force. Sure. I'll say Jonathan Wagant's, because, oh, yeah, his, his is wild as well. I believe that's a real crash retrieval case, but I'm still inside of a mountain, too, which is like so, I mean, so bizarre in terms of flight trajectory, and, but I'm going to include that one just because I think there's more to be told from that story, including like one of the two from Sergeant Alan and Adkins trying to get a little cute with me when reaching out to them. I think I've said this to you before, but one of the two sergeants that Wagant was with, Alan or Adkins, I emailed from my uapeaker about gmail.com email, just said, hello, you know, you've been implicated before and there's this, there's a real nice greeting email, nothing accusatory. And they respond back with my full like legal birth name, and it's like they're just trying to get cutesy, give my full name there. And I don't like that, but, you know, there's more to be told, have you tried to reach out again? Have you responded? No. I might though. You should. I might though. I mean, they can take a cue from Jonathan Wagant, who comes out, says this, has he, has he like felt any reprisal, any, any, not since he faced some nasty reprisals back in the early 2000s and late 90s. Right. But not since your podcast. No. Okay. So maybe they can take a cue from him, be like, yes, that's so bad. I think because he was already dragged to the mud and probably, you know, same thing with, with Dave Grush and what people did to him and Dylan Borland, people are fine with letting Jonathan Wagant fall on the sword and, you know, be picked apart or sure. You know, he's, he's lived a hard life since them and my heart goes out to that man. A last one, gosh, let's, uh, so, Kingman, Jonathan Wagant, and I'm going to say that 1992 deep sea recovery off the coast of Aberdeen, Scotland. Right. Yeah. Um, in terms, in terms of mechanics of that case and involved elements and, and maritime elements involved in that case, I do think that is a real retrieval case by naval elements as well. Yeah. And that's an interesting thing too, because, you know, when you talk about retrievals, there are categories of retrievals. There are these archaeological digs, not unlike, you know, what Ross Coltert, you know, presented on his show, which I don't think is, you know, whether or not a crash happened, I don't know, but I don't think those bodies are legit. That's just my personal gestalt on the matter. But there are archaeological digs we've heard this from Bob, those are we for this, you know, throughout, um, throughout, you have a lure that, you know, they come across these, these things, whether in the water or whether, you know, deep down in the dirt or whatever, whether they build a building around it, you know, whatever that is. But, but then there are like the water ones, yeah, which the Navy take care of. And then there are like the land ones, which the Air Force seems to take care of, and then they're compartmentalized also like, you know, you have the Department of Naval Intelligence that allegedly ran, you know, S4, and those I assume are all recovered craft from the water. Yeah. Like, you know, you go to a right pat and those I assume are all like the land ones and they've got their own sort of collections. And then you have the spooky, privatized crash retrieval groups like Northrop's that take down craft. And then you have the craft that are down to versus crashed, and then you have the craft that are gifted. And then you have the craft that are small enough that a CH-47 can pick it up or small enough, it can be put in a Konex container and then a craft too big, uh, you might need a low-boy trailer and then a craft too big, you might need to build something around it. Yeah. There's, there's many, many, many a category. And that was one of the things that frustrated with the age of disclosure too for maritime recoveries, you know, Dan Farah went with his, uh, kind of retort to my comments and said, well, this CIA can just contract like Steel Team 6 to drag these out of the water. That's untrue. You need large naval logistics elements to get this craft. Mm-hmm. So yeah, there, and then of course, there's craft retrieved and then where do they go? Do they go to the army? Do they go to the Navy? Do they go to the Air Force? Which compartments are their programs? Do they go to, uh, maybe they're, they go to a joint space, um, yeah, a joint pot that the NRRO runs or, or UFO chop shop. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That takes them apart and splits them up into, you know, all the, where I don't think they go is the contractor, you know, at the Lucky Martins unless it's the weird privatized and not, not in a, you know, because a contractor, you can just send it part of the bulk or part of the hull and just be like, hey, this is some new thing we're working on. Can you, uh, you know, make this out of it? Like they're not going to know, no, no, no, no. The safest place to store the craft are in the Go Coast, the government owned contractor operated to installations and these are the DOE and NSA national labs, say in DIA, uh, Lawrence Livermore, uh, Los Alamos and including Oak Ridge and the Y-12 complex. And most people don't know this Air Force Plant 42. Plant 42 is a Go Co complex. It's government owned contractor operated. The three, that's the one south of, um, which Air Force Base Edwards Edwards, right? And of course, Southwest of China Lake as well. That's right. Antelope Aerospace Valley. Of course, uh, I can't remember this specific division, but Plant 42 is a division of Wright Patterson and its government owned Air Force owned contractor operated. The only three contractors that are allowed on the special government airfield of, of Plant 42 are Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman. All right, three of the big five defense industrial prime contractors wild. What do you make of that billionaire that came out on Ross's video T T W T M T W? Yeah. I have not given that it's fair shake yet in terms of listen to his whole testimony, but I am like you, I think that the bones presented, I'm very skeptical of it. It is interesting, though, what struck me is more interesting than, well, not maybe not more interesting than aliens, but more interesting than the fake bones, I presume, is the idea that this guy would have been, because he's the head of, like, some logistic, you know, enterprise, and he would have been contracted for a crash retrieval in his words. The DOD hit him up and said, you know, we're going to send you, I guess, JSAG guys or whatever, and you're going to, you're going to go handle, you're going to run a retrieval using your logistical knowledge. Right. I just thought that was so interesting, because one, I'm like, how easy is that to fall, slip through your hands and leak? You're dealing with a civilian contractor who is pretty green to this matter. Maybe he's done other contracts in the past, but something so sensitive, you know, if true, would mean you're risking decades of secrecy in the hands of a civilian that is, you know, not as, doesn't have a track record like the big five. Number one, number two, could that just be like a limited way of, you know, maybe they don't know if it's a real retrieval? Right. Yeah. And they send him in case as sort of a scapegoat or is it completely confabulated and they're like, go there and then while, you know, they're misdirecting and going this way. My money would be on possibly retrieval down to the point where DOD elements know it's not a real retrieval. At least from what I understand for the in-house, you know, national security, national security council derived retrieval programs, these use parallel JSAG elements and actually institutionalized logistics, coordinating groups such as the CIA, OGA, Office of Global Access, and not privatized logistic companies. Right. If it was privatized, I would expect it there to be a private retrieval team, like Northrop's team, which doesn't answer to DOD, it answers to Northrop Grumman's own win. But there wasn't even a crashed UFO in this account, right? The crash was the bones, right? Yeah, they buried them. Apparently there was a crash and they built a church over it. And then there was this excavation that yielded these bodies. But I will say too, like, this could also just been a way of sort of litmus testing. Right. Right. The contractor in this case and me, like, could this be another guy that helps us out? Well, that seems to somewhat make sense to me. I told you about the crash retrieval operator, the claim-clarash retrieval operator that got the briefing about don't be a leaker like Bob Lazar. Right. This guy's first retrieval mission, you know, they would have technical briefings about, you know, just standard aircraft retrievals and how to, you know, get them in Konex containers and clean up different parts. His first retrieval operation was a triangle craft on the Nellis range, but this triangle craft was super light and it was like a crappy group of rivets. So in his mind, he thinks that this was just a dummy craft, like a weird shape. How he would fare exactly like a litmus test. I think that that makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't throw anybody into the deep end like that. So, um, safe to say this guy will not be hired again for another crash retrieval. As soon as I saw him come out, I was like, even if this is real, you know, like that they did hire him, you got to, you got to do all the due diligence on the bodies first. Right. Because then if you smell that it might be fake, that the bodies might be fake, the contract was real, the bodies are fake, then you can piece together yourself. You're like, "Oh, this is a test." Yeah. But if you're not, I think if you're not bright enough to figure that out, like, you know, they're happy to see that interview with Ross and be like, "Oh, glad he did that." Yeah, maybe TW's organization could have served a strategic purpose like to aid rapid reaction teams because they had assets in different parts of the Konaise or O'Konaise outside of the continental United States. And this was just to see how he would react in a bizarre situation. So you uncover bones and, you know, maybe he failed the obvious test, which was to take pictures and release them up the bones. Yeah. Just to see maybe how he'd react if there were real bones or real bodies or a real odd craft. And but hats off as well because, you know, being in his position wanting to disclose that type of stuff, I mean, it takes a lot of bravery and it takes, you know, you're going against the defense department who just gave you probably a really hefty contract to do something. Right. And you're outing them for the sake of, you know, disclosure. I think that's a noble sort of quest, but ultimately probably helps them more than it hurts them. I've only given, given TW's story so far, one pass over. So I'm really poorly forced on it. But to me, fair enough. And myself as well, I'm not maybe fully informed and there might be some information left out. Right. To me, he doesn't seem like a grifter type trying to press fake skeletons. I don't think so either. So I just think there's more, I think it's a complicated story. I do too. And I actually commend Ross for covering it because again, most people won't see past the bones potentially being fake. They won't look past that and see, oh, the DoD is hiring people on crash retrievals. Right. This is very interesting. And like weird excavations. Exactly. Who passed the litmus test is what I want to know? Are there other exactly, there are other contractors outside of the big five because there be a name drop in every single ger video. They're probably like, we need some new blood in here. Well, we can't track down those big five can make their own shell companies. Sure. Yeah. And of course, that's true too. Lockheed has some of those. Of course, there's spinoff companies of all of these like Lockheed Barnes former enterprise integration group that was. Yeah. But I mean, like a successful logistics company would be of a pretty valuable asset to these retrievals. But 100% especially if up until now, they have to rely on the CIA OGA. Yeah. And maybe the CIA OGA is getting burned lately because Lou and co are tossing the live hand grenade to that saying, here you go, if we get disclosure, you're screwed. That's right. And maybe these, you know, retrievals, if they don't fall under sort of official sap or usap designation, maybe there's more money to be made for the program. Or maybe there's also such heavy competition with privatized retrieval teams. You send a contracted asset to not risk your own blue assets getting destroyed. A lot of babies. I know. Well, that's because both of us are not too well-versed. And it's fun to think about. Yeah. I'm going to go and turn on this camera. We got some questions from the audience. Be right back. All right. So as many of you know, if you're part of the discord here, and if you're not only part of the discord, but if you're a member of the channel, which you can be, sign up below or go to Patreon, you get a chance, one of the many perks, you get a chance to ask our guests a question. Now, this was extremely short notice. It was actually today, while we were filming some other stuff, I had a quick minute and asked our top secret little discord about, you know, I asked them to come up with some questions. And they did. And like, I mean, last minute, I'm just going to show you, this is last minute, these are all the questions they had just for you. That an awesome team. Yeah. Oh, they're hyper responsive. I love these guys so much. So unfortunately, we couldn't get to all of them. But I did choose three. And we're going to show all those up right now. All right. First one here. This is by Tattle Slug. This board is so cool. I'll never get sick of that. Why have you not investigated Pratt and Whitney? Well, what is Pratt and Whitney? Pratt and Whitney is a division now of Raytheon. And that in terms of their importance to the possible larger conversation of UFOs, that is just what I know about them so far. Well, Tattle Slug, to try and answer your question of why I have not investigated Pratt and Whitney thus far, I try and spend as much time as humanly possible on basically a contractor, a group of contractors, or an FFRDC at a time. I'm going to try and soak up as much knowledge pursue as much as possible. If you have seen here Tattle Slug, I've barely even talked about Raytheon at all. Just as I haven't talked about general dynamics, just I haven't really talked about sparey rand unless these are all upcoming videos. Maybe. I think so. Raytheon's a tough egg to crack. Raytheon's a really hard one. It's it's almost because like Raytheon the last so the last supper at the end of the Cold War when when the five primes were formed by soaking up a ton of smaller defense contractors. Raytheon seemed to get in their foot in the door really late in the game. By swallowing in stuff like eSystems and Raytheon to me is one of the newest contributors to legacy programs. That's going to probably take me some time to be able to get like a really firm understanding or some really direct information there. But Pratt and Whitney and Raytheon will 100% be a future video. I just need to make sure I expand my knowledge base. So funny. I could just imagine everybody at Raytheon just like quivering right now and being like fuck. Guarbs talking about making a video about us. Now I'm like mad. You shit. I'm 99.9% sure that Pratt and Whitney is under Raytheon. So on the point 1% chance I'm wrong. Please forgive me, Tattles. But I don't think I know. And even if you're not wrong, you'll eventually correct yourself, even if you are wrong, rather. And speaking of being corrected, great segue. Have you ever been corrected by someone on the inside of one of these abbreviations? A abbreviation? So we'll just say that as like an acronym. Yeah. all the time. Yeah. All the time. I mean, I had to be corrected in terms of how I viewed the contractor DOD relationship. You know, I initially bought into the false idea that people like how put off like to say that UFO legacy programs are hidden the contractors specifically to avoid from FOIA. I had to be corrected by several people over the course of over a year and basically learn that the missing link there is the FFRDC federally funded research and development centers. So much more will be discussed about FFRDCs in time. It's an eye I can't wait to see it. You seem very excited about FFRDCs. I mean, it's possibly more than anyone on the planet. Niter aerospace corporation, Rand Corporation, Center for Naval Analysis, IDA, there will be more coming. I just, I can't stress enough the importance of FFRDCs, especially DOE and NSA national labs and so forth. Any go-co institution, I will be all over noted. So that's probably the biggest thing I've been corrected on. Other subtle, smaller stuff like, you know, a maybe this person you should have talked about them. But I don't really do that. I don't talk at the behest of other people. If somebody will say, hey, who has worked in the program, hey, Gerb, I saw this video. It was pretty interesting that you talked about this, but I noticed you didn't talk about this. This person or this person doesn't mean I'm just going to regurgitate that name or anything. That's going to mean, hmm, maybe I need to go search into that specific person's work history or what they've done or who they've worked for, how they might tie into the larger conversation. So maybe like four or five months down the line, I'll then include that person a video because I have an expanded knowledge base of how they might fit into a certain piece of the puzzle. What's your workflow like for these videos? Like, is this do you have? I can just imagine like this beautiful mind scenario of all these, you know, red cords tying together these piece of information on a giant pinboard. But what is your workflow? Like, I see you got a notebook here. Are you constantly taking notes? Are you on your phone? Are you? Do you have like filing cabinets at home with a lot of this information? Like, how do you, how do you get this information coherent? So I write everything down with hand just because I remember things better. I had to learn the hard way in college while studying engineering that taking notes on a computer. I would not remember it. So I will, I will do that. Everything I come across that will be of importance. I save. I've learned some hard lessons of having sites or some websites or something. I want to revisit that are then taken down and of course not archived on the web on the internet archive. Really? Yeah. So everything I come across, I will save immediately and put it into a relevant folder. I'm hyper organized with my folders down to like a painstaking degree, whether it be a document, whether it be a website, whether it be a LinkedIn profile, whether it be a video, I save everything. Nice. So when I embark on a project, I usually make a notion or an awful, I usually make a handwritten outline of how I want to structure something because like you said, I have a billion different ideas in my head and I need to somehow transfer that into what I would consider a cohesive something. Yeah. I'll start by writing out what chapters I want to cover. Okay. Large overviews. And then within those chapters subgroups, and I'll always have a separate list for personnel and dates and names because I in videos, you know, starting a while back and coming around out, I want to be as hyper specific as humanly possible. Of course. Always get the names. And then I'll do those chapters. I'll do any sort of relevant data I can get. Anytime I have a name, I'll find their work history. I will find public interviews they've done. I'll find connections with other people. She's constantly spiraling down more and more rabbit holes as you get to like the bottom and start digging into these things. You're finding a name. Well, you got to go down who they worked for. Oh, this is a new business. Got to go down that. Yeah. Who's the president of that? Oh, got to go down that. And you're constantly falling down these holes. Yes, I need to get it to the point where when I write the script that I don't have to sit with like wondering what I'm going to write, I need to get my brain to the point where the script then for the video is begging itself to be written. You understand every all the ins and outs. The knowledge has to be able to go directly from my brain now onto the page without like relying on my notes, checking things off. I need to talk about this. And that's the lovely thing about talking to you in person. Is that you realize that all of this stuff that you're, you know, this isn't some Chatchee BT script. This isn't, you know, I mean, this is your life's work. And it really means something to you because you talk about this stuff with not only conviction, but you have a reverence for it and you have an insane memory for it, which tells me that you're, you know, obviously exceptionally passionate about it. And so, and that's the only way that you could convey these ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you couldn't convey them in a way that's in any capacity half-assed because it just wouldn't, it'd fall apart. Yeah. Like I always say, the whole channel idea started off as a PowerPoint for some friends who have never listened who are no longer your friends. No, no, they saw this. The specific ones that asked me now would be like, Hey, so, you know, you met Bob Lissard. Oh, yeah. Because for the most part, you know, if you want to keep your friends, don't show them a slide show of, you know, FFR DCs. Well, unless you want to keep using friends, because I'm down, I'm down to listen to them, but yeah, must be, must be a shock. A bit of a nontological shock for lay friends to sit around and what's Gerb going to show us and then just like, wow, UFO history. Most of my friends don't know I have my channel. Really? Yeah, just because like I really am not big on kind of the notoriety or stuff. Like you said, I'm just so passionate about the topic. I have to talk about it. I have to try to investigate legacy programs. It's not like something I want to do for glory. I just have to do it. Do you just bite your tongue when you're like, you know, training MMA or you're like, hang with friends and they go and they go, oh, do you see that video of the Flier tick-tack the other day? Do you just go, yeah, that's cool. No, I heard you go, hold on a second. So at my jujitsu gym, a couple wise guys, I guess they've been on Reddit because they'll go around saying, you know, hey, they're Sam. He's in the CIA. So now there's a running gag around my gym that I'm in the CIA, which for the record, no, I'm not. But so that's been going around my gym now and hilarious. It's all fun and game. You should lean into it. No, no, because I don't because I every every now and then I see like on Reddit or something that I'm in the CIA. That doesn't make sense. The CIA would be lucky to have you, by the way, but still that doesn't make sense. I implicate the CIA and legacy stuff all the time. Exactly. And then people use the argument like people might be a CIA agent because they're saying UFOs are actually advanced stealth aircraft. I say both. I say there are UFOs that we've recovered and our own derived technology and that the CIA works on both. Yeah. And do an illegal shit. Yeah, I despise the CIA. That's something a CIA agent might say. But then the worst part of the video shortly is is the recording because I hate hearing this out of my voice and then editing that takes so long. Yeah. You can use that. Oh, I have not. It's actually good. I actually like at the first you revere sort of looking at yourself. Yeah, especially on an off day. Yeah. You know, it's not we all get off days. We look like feel like we look like shit. And you just got to be in front of a camera. And you just got to like muscle through and like edit your own face and your voice. It's terrible. But after a while, it's actually great because that part of you that was a little vain starts withering away. And you kill it with every video. You just start killing that part of you. That's vain. And you just stop caring what you look like. And then when that happens, I tend to feel your personality shines a little bit more. And people actually begin to get more interested in what you're saying. Right. Yeah. And so it's kind of like a cool lesson to, you know, go through the mud and, you know, hear yourself and see yourself. I think it's, you know, over time, it's a good thing. All right. Thanks for giving us a little glimpse into your mind. Yeah. Thank you Stan B. We got one last one. And this is a really great question from Hex. Hex always comes through with these awesome questions. Shout out Hex. If you could be president for any legacy program event, what would it be like historical event? Any legacy event, any program event. So in any part of that event, you know what I mean? Like where the where the legacy program comes in and does something. President, sorry, I read president. Yeah. If you could, if you could be president for any legacy program event, what would it be? If you could be boots on the ground, whether that's, you know, unloading, testing, being there for the initial retrieval, the bodies, which would it be one of your favorite crashes? Or no. So what I, what I think I would want to do is, is president Truman from what I understand helped set up a lot of the legacy structure by empowering the National Security Council. What would become the Air Force Systems Command, the defense, no, the Office of Research and Development and involving Vannevar Bush and the Office of Naval Intelligence to kind of spearhead legacy programs, including allegedly classified presidential executive orders in July of 1948 that gave custody of recovered discs to go co-institutions like DOE NSN and NSA FFRDC National Labs and DIA and so forth. But from what I understand, it was Eisenhower that set up much of the legacy program. Infrastructure that would evolve and really perpetuate the Manhattan Project too. You know, as I understand, there were stuff like the 5412 Committee, a special subgroup of the National Security Council, if that actually housed, well, we, what it was called at one point, the MAG 12, just a 12. I don't know when that disappeared. I don't know if it still has a skeleton of itself, but it's not the different. of authority it once was. I would like to be present for that series of decisions by Eisenhower, who basically set up the entire skeleton for legacy stuff. I think if I understood that because I'm starting to understand how legacy scattered itself into the wind, where various pieces broke off, it's so much more to learn, but how things transitioned and how fiefdoms developed and starting to think like who might those fiefdoms be and then what contractors broke away their own breakaway, North of Grumman, their own. It would help you understand the the entirety of the program. Right. Because also if I understood those efforts by Eisenhower, I could find at the starting point for the entire reverse engineering. And yeah, in material exploitation program, you find that whole infrastructure because the empowering those legacy program elements probably also had some sort of understanding or read on our adversaries' capabilities, you know, China and Russia and what they might be doing. And I would want to specifically be there for the legacy guidelines that Eisenhower set up in the 50s. Yeah, a boardroom with the famous 12 would be interesting, wouldn't it? Yeah, 100%. I mean, sure, like being on Jonathan Wagant's shoulder and watching his experience might be more interesting, but the way I could best understand and learn would be that. That's it. That's a great answer. Sam, thank you for sharing. Where can we find you? You can find me on YouTube at UAPGurb. I will be working on a website because I want to put some of my scripts and ideas just a page because I know some people like a reading medium, more than the watching medium. So just so I have some stuff on text. But yeah, find me on YouTube at UAPGurb or Spotify at UAPGurb. And on there, you can find links to like my discord. If you want to chat with me directly, I'm always in there trying to trying to respond to people. So always happy to talk about if it's legacy programs, you will get me there in a moment's notice. Well, you're going to get blown up after this. I have a feeling. And let me just say, I always put this shout out. If you, I ask you only to honor this, this email address, if you have had first hand experience or exposure to legacy programs, this being UFO Crash treatment reverse engineering, if you have knowledge or tips or points of contact, please email me at [email protected]. And I would be very much appreciative and of course respect your privacy and employ a better operational security than some. Well, you're a true gentleman and I can vouch for you keeping secrets. I even small anecdote, but when I told Gerb in Austin who the guest was, and it's something you didn't know, but I told you who the guest was. And I said, you know, you got to keep this, it's going to be Bob Lazar. You got to freak down. Oh my god. And I said, like, you can't tell anybody. And I was like, there's other people coming here, but I just like we don't want, you know, too many people knowing it's going to be a surprise. And Zander Jones from the night shift podcast, he told me confided in me. He's like, you can trust Gerb because I pressed him. Oh my god. Yeah. And he goes, who's it going to be? And he actually guessed Bob Lazar. And you said, nope. Yep. And so at that moment, I was like, oh, you can really trust this guy. Dude, Zander's definitely watching this. And you would not stop asking and you were steadfast in your resolve. So I commend you on that. Thank you. Thank you for holding that secret. It means a lot. So you can, you're definitely trustworthy. Thank you, Sam. Appreciate your time. And yeah, let's go. Let's go do the show in Montreal. Sounds great. Thanks, Chris. All right. Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. 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