Two-Spirit Journey: Healing Through Story w/ Ma-Nee Chacaby

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to Shkikken, Weed Babad Dhan, Indigenous Medicine Stories. I'm your host, Daryl Manitwabi. Today's episode features two spirited elder, writer, artist, storyteller, and activist, Manitwabi from Thunder Bay, Ontario. I spoke with Manit earlier this year at her home in Thunder Bay, and this is what you have to say. (upbeat music) - Bonjour, my name is Manitwabi. I live in Thunder Bay. I am a two-spirit elder. - Can you talk about where your home community is and what life was like growing up? - I was born in Thunder Bay, and then my grandmother came and picked me up, and she raised me in a small community between Nakina and Armstrong. It's called Umbabaka, next door to Auden, Ontario. That's, Umbabaka was the native community. Auden was the white community, and they were a part of the habit to be forest company or something like that. They came and tear the trees down. That's how I know what they were, who they were. - Did you come to Thunder Bay at a very young age? Is that how did that-- - No, I ran away from Umbabaka because of the abuse I was enduring, and that's it. - I came with my two children and my brother. - Mm-hmm. And where did you go to school when you're growing up? - Well, just in Umbabaka when I was young. I didn't have that many grades, probably up to grade four, I think. - And what kind of work did you do in the past? - I was a trapper and a hunter and a bush person. - Where did you learn that? - My dad taught me how to go hunting and fishing, and that's what I did with him. My grandmother raised me and she wanted me to learn everything because she told my mom, my real mom, and she told my stepdad that I was gonna grow up to be not like every other woman. So, and she wanted me to learn how to defend myself, how to go hunting, trapping, and whatever. That's what she saw in my future. - Mm-hmm. Do you know how she came to that? How did she, she know that? Did she ever tell you that? - I don't know, she was very old, really, really, really old lake. Some people said she was 103 and some people said she was 109, but she was really old. 'Cause I looked after her sometimes, especially when people were gathering around drinking and stuff like that, and so I would look after her then, and hide her from other people because I didn't want them to step on her. She was really old. She taught us a lot of things about the history, her history, what it was like. Can you share some of that, some of what you learned from her for those who may not know that? - Well, one of the things she said was, she told my mom and my mom told me, well, I was listening to them, but they told me that Canada was not ours to celebrate Canada Day, because that's not ours. That was visitors' day. And they took over the planet we lived on. She said, "We were here to look after the trees and the water and the earth. We're supposed to take care of animals. We only take what we need from them." And we're supposed to share with these things with the animals and the forest, the people that live in the forest and stuff like that. She said, "That is our duty." My grandmother said, "She was born in Saskatchewan in the south side before it became a border." So they used to walk back and forth with no problems. And then when the border became border, they couldn't know what it could go on one side. And as the part she said that her grandmother and her grandmother before that used to say people were, they had freedom to go back and forth wherever they wanted to be. And then people made a decision or made plans not to. American people became America and Canada became, well, our country became Canada. And she said, "So that is why she didn't want me to celebrate Canada Day." Our day, Nishnaba Day is a springtime, she said. That's when we celebrate our time because it is the opening season of the earth like trees, flowers, babies, animals, and stuff like that. Everything was growing and everything was opening. And that is the time we celebrate our time to remind us who we are and where we are. And also that the hunting season was going to be good that summer and we can survive. So she talked about those cantings. - Did you learn about anything along the lines of ceremony and or medicines on the land and stuff like that aside from hunting? - Yeah, she talked about a lot about the four medicines that we use. And she said tobacco came from us. Tobacco was originated by First Nation people. It did not come from another place. She said, "And that we use it for medicine, just like we do with cedar." But I don't remember exactly how they used tobacco, but she told me one time what they use it for. And then I don't remember it. But she said, "The four medicines we have is our sacred medicines." And it is not something you play around it or fool around with or to make fun of it. It's the creator's medicine for us to heal. That's what she said. It's like when somebody gets hurt, we tape them and we use those medicines to tape them and they get healed, she said. So that's what those four medicines were for. And they were spiritual, she said. The creator is already in them. So that part, when I was young, I didn't know what that meant until I got older. I think a lot of old people say those kinds of things. And then when you're young, you don't know what they're talking about. And then when you're old, "Oh, now I know what it means," you know? So when you introduce yourself, you introduce yourself as a two-spirited elder. Can you explain what two-spirited means for those who may not have heard about that term and it might be new to them? Well, to me, two-spirited person or elder or anything like that is a person who lives with two spirits in their body, mind and soul. And my grandmother used to say that it was part of being a man, part of being a woman. There's two sides of your body that is in you that develops inside of you and that makes you feel like that's what you should be. It's not something that you just make it up and you're just born now, as she said. And it's okay because she said there was lots of people that live as two-spirited people way back before anybody was ever on the earth. She said, "The first people of our land, my grandfather's grandfather's grandfather," she said. Most of the people were two-spirited. She said, "And the women too were two-spirited," she said. And they were warriors. Sometimes they took turns, women go hunting, men would stay home with the kids. They were shared that way. She said, "And that's how you supposed to share your life with another partner." If you marry a man, she said, you guys take turns to do that because if you only do one thing, it gets to be not, you don't teach very many skills with your kids then. She said, "When you have kids, you just have lots to teach because of who you are." And there's people that used to be left together like that and nobody made fun of them. Now she said, what does she say? Christianity moved in, everything changed. Most she said, she witnessed a lot of that when she was younger, that when she was really young, like maybe becoming teenager, she witnessed where men were tied up in the back. Like this, she said, hands behind their back. And they were told to walk out of the community and sent somewhere else. So they didn't influence the rest of the First Nations people that lived in that community. So they don't become gay or lesbian. And that's what she said. So they don't become two-spirits. Christianity didn't like that. She said, Christianity taught us God to live in our body, mind and soul, and God didn't want us to be that way. And she said, but the teaching, she said, when she was little, she said she was told that the gifts Nishnava had was there were two-spirited people and there were other people like women and men. They were born that way because they had to make children. And some women were born to be two-spirited. That's just the way life was. It wasn't made up story. She said it was just that way. And nobody did anything about it. Like they didn't try to change them until Christianity moved them. That's what she told me. Well, she didn't tell me that, but I was listening to the stories. And she did tell me that one time I was four years old and I was told that I was a two-spirited person that I'm going to have a rough life when I grew up. And that I had to really watch what I'm going to do and how to survive this life that I was carrying. But for a long time when she said that I was two-spirited, I never bothered with that until I was 14 and 15, I asked her, what does that mean? And she told me, she said, now your mom and the other, they made agreement for you to marry this person. And you guys are going to be married and you're going to have family, she said, that's just part of life. Some people don't believe in that. Your mom, she said, your real mom is different than the teaching I'm doing, she said, she's learned some things from the community where she lived for 12 years, which was in the hospital, in Sanatorium. So she didn't raise me, my mom, my co-com raised me. And that's why she was telling me this because I asked questions. I wanted to know because I was young when my friend and I we used to go up the rocket, it's called the rocket in Umbabaka, where kids hang out and just we just used to go out there and hang out and watch people walk by and below. And kids, teenagers would be going by and both of us were looking at who was good for us, which one would I take, which one would he take? And he said, he really liked this guy. And I thought, oh, and then I said to myself, oh, I like her. I liked her hair really long, nice young woman walk younger. I mean, she wasn't a woman yet. We're just kids, then, this is when we're becoming teenagers and starting to explore our sexuality, I guess. So when I was telling my friend, I liked that person over there. And then he said, yeah, me too, I liked that guy over there. And there was a dance coming up. He said, when the dance comes up, we should approach them and ask them to dance with us. And I said, okay, it's a deal. So we made a deal. It didn't happen that way, though. So that's part of that story that sometimes I don't talk about that what happens when you're teenager and/or becoming teenager. What were some other experiences? Like, how did the community react when you were going through that knowing who you are and how did they react? Well, other community didn't like people like that. Some of them, they beat them up. I used to get beat up all the time. The boys would beat the crap out of me. And well, the girls too, because happened to look their way. They would think I was after them. I was never after anybody. It was only one person in my life I liked in that community, but I didn't get to have her anyway. So I just liked her and really liked her a lot. She was a young native person and she lived with her grandmother. She was like me. And I don't think she was too spirit, but she was like me being raised by our grandmothers. And her grandmothers used to come and visit my grandmother. And the first time she came, that's when my heart went, boom, boom, boom. Or my tummy went, oh, you know, it was a normal all of a sudden. My body became abnormal. Something was happening inside me and I didn't understand it. And I thought, well, I'm getting sick. And I told my grandmother in her ear, I'm getting sick. I need to get out of here. Because I didn't know what the emotions were. So and she just said, oh, it was a little walk or get some air. She told me, take that drill with you. And she didn't know that's why it was happening. I couldn't do that to her. I couldn't approach her. I was too scared to approach her. You've talked about, you've done some community work and you've been a leader with two spirited. And can you talk about some of the work you've done? You brought that out for people to talk about. And can you talk about what led to that and some of the things you've done to it? I was living in Thunder Bay for a long time. I mean, I was married. My stepfather kept telling me, he said, you got to get married. And I told him, I didn't want to marry a man. I'd rather marry a woman. And everybody freaked out. Everybody went, you know, they went all hairy and crazy. And you know, my step sister was really shocked. And when I just said that word, you know, I'd rather marry a woman. I said, everybody just went, and my dad said, well, he says, I'll talk to you after he said. So later on, he pointed his finger for me to go out with him to go for a little walk. So I did. I took him for a little walk. And he told me, he says, your grandmother told me a long time ago that you were one of those people. You were the people of the two-spirit society, he said, in our native language, Niger-Jajak Anishinaabewak, Niger-Jajak Anishinaabewak, she said, that's what you are. But then he explained that lots of people is not going to like it, because our first nations people have been taught not to be that way by Christianity. And he remembered some of the stories when he was young that some of his friends was like that. But Christianity made it impossible for them to ever get together, that's what he told me. So he just wanted to warn me and tell me that to be careful with my life in the way that I walk. So when I got older and living in Thunder Bay, and I used to see people going out of town, and then they would never come back, men and some women, some girls, they would leave. And then one time I met some people in Winnipeg, there was a couple of guys and all of a sudden I saw these two, this guy from my community, Thunder Bay, he was holding hands with this guy they were walking, so I called his name out and he said, hey, so we had each other and he introduced me to his friend, and I looked at him and I said, can I phone you after? He says, yeah, so he gave me his phone number. And I phone him and I ask him personally on the phone, I said, I saw you holding his hands, I said, are you guys together? He said, yeah, he can't do that in Thunder Bay, he says. And I said, why? Then he says, well, people don't accept those kinds of things in Thunder Bay, it's really hard, it's like prejudice, he said, people don't like you because you're Indian now, they might not like you because you're that person. So I understood that part of his life. So I started to explore my own way in my mind and I would never tell anyone, I was one thing I never really ever told anybody that is what I was feeling. Even to my best friend that I grew up with, I never told her that I had that feeling until I came out myself and I don't know how she felt about me after that. Today we're not friends anymore, I don't know if it's because of that. I don't think that's because of that though, I think it's because of what something happened. Anyway, so I struggled with that for, I got married to try it out, I was thinking, okay, maybe if I get married, maybe if I marry a man, I will not be like that. What a way to find out. So I did marry this person and it didn't work out for me, so we moved to Winnipeg and then I came back from Winnipeg to Thunder Bay and decided just to stay that way and be that way. And then I came out in 1987, I came out part of the fall of '97. I came out as who I was and I had a lot of, lots happened that time. And you've done a lot of work to educate people about that and what kind of work have you done? Can you talk, share some of that work that you've done? Wow. Sometimes I would just tell people that I am who I am, I love women. Women is my kind of person I want to be with, I'll never be happy to be with a man. I used to tell them that if I have kids that, when I got, now I got kids I don't mind, I'll raise my kids myself, you know, I've been raising them since they were babies, I ran away from the person I was living with because what the person was like. So they didn't question too many things. People just kind of accept whatever I was saying, I guess. And they would say, "Oh, how do you know who you really are?" I feel it in here, I said, "In my heart and in my stomach," and I said, "And in my head," I said, "If my three parts of my body feels the same, then why should I try and change that?" And if I can't find a person to live with a woman, to live with her, to fall in love with then that's okay too. That's what I was saying when I came out, you know, it didn't matter. You're involved, as an elder, you're involved with teachings and ceremony and that knowledge. How did that come about? When did you start bringing that into your life? I think that came out after I came out. People started talking to me, "Oh, why did you do what you did?" And I said, "I told him, well, I want to live happy." I don't want to move away and become a lesbian, I said, "I want to live here as a lesbian. I want to die here as a lesbian, even if I don't find a partner, I just want to be true to myself, true to creator. Creator made me this way, I'm not going to deny it. I'm not going to be happy if I die denying it. It's a heavy load to carry." So once I came out and let it go, I became free. I was free from whatever I was. The chains were broken into many pieces because I felt like I was tied up in the chain for many, many years. Like I couldn't do anything, I couldn't be anything, I couldn't, you know, I didn't like to be with a man, even though I was with a man, I wasn't happy. So I felt like I was being chained up in my own heart, in my body, in my mind, in my soul. So once I came out, as who I truly was, the chain broke. I made an art of that, but I never showed to anyone because it's private. For me, it's private. Maybe one day I'll show it as once I paint it. It just sketch I made and maybe one day I'll sit down and paint it and show it, put it on my wall. I always get thinking that people is going to ask me too many questions with that painting. And then I'll just sit down and explain. It sounds like that was a healing experience for you, is that how you would describe it when you're talking about the chains being broken and forgotten. Yeah, because I became alive and I became light as a feather. I used to feel like even now today when I let go of all my stuff that I carried from childhood till now, I was like, oh man, I could run out of here and just jump and grab that. That tree up there, I feel like I could probably bounce up there. I never tried. I'd probably break my neck. So you're an elder in Thunder Bay. What does that mean for you and what kind of things do you mean? Me being an elder. It doesn't mean like I'm really old, old person. That part I am old. I don't mind being old, age doesn't matter. I always feel young inside. I always feel happy inside, you know, I don't have really anything that weighs me down. I used to, but now I feel really like I'm happy person inside. And then just kind of like, how would I explain that? It's almost like there's a part of me that's, can you rephrase that question again? Yeah, I just wondering for those who don't, who are not aware of what it means to be an elder in the city and can you talk about that? I'm doing what I'm doing, working with people and young people. I like working with young people. I was drawn to young people all the time and I see them and when I talk to them sometimes they tell me their story and that people don't understand them, that at all tell them what to do, they don't never ask them how they are to just get asked. You better do this when you grow up, you're going to be this way, or you've got to do it this way and this is the only way you've got to do it or, you know, that's what they've been told most of their lives. So when I sit down with them and I say, well, I could just listen if you got anything you want to say, I said, I could, I'm a good listener, I always tell them. And I'm a good laugher, I tell them. I'm good at a lot of things and then they laugh at me and then they start telling me their personal stories and they start sharing and, you know, they really, they really need somebody to really listen to them. Sometimes that's what I feel in certain young people. And then I laugh with them and hang out with them and just be, be part of them. And I don't question them, why are they like that, why are they running away? You know, there was one kid that was running away. He told me that, he says, I'm running away and I said, oh, and why? I said, that was my only question I said to him, all because my family, my, I don't like my family and my family don't like me and all they do is tell me, just tell me that and they drink, they do a lot of drugs. I'm not into drugs, he said, he said, I don't want to be that way. He said, I don't have a grandmother, I don't have a grandfather, I just have a mom and dad, I don't know if I have any grandparents, he said, he never met them, so he doesn't think he has any. And his parents didn't tell him where they came from, so he doesn't know who he really is. Too much party, he said, and he grew up at party in his life and then he was tired. I was the last time I saw him and he said he was going to hitchhike on the street and I can't remember if he said he was going west, if he was going east, but he was going, I think he said he was going to go west, but he was going east and I said, don't, since you're going now, aren't you going the wrong way? Yeah, but there's a highway down there, it's closer, he said, so I said, well, for me highway is closer up the hill, then you can, but oh yeah, he says, too many people there, he said, then he left, he was a white boy, he was around 14, I think, and I was the last time I ever saw him, he was, you know, I was just sitting there when he popped in and popped up in front of my, you know, he was almost, I felt like he was looking for somebody or he was afraid to be seen by somebody, that's how I felt about him, because he kept looking around and he wanted to make sure nobody saw him, I guess, so I never ever heard about him or anything, I didn't even ask him his name. We're coming close to the end here of our visit, I wonder if you had some, some final words to share, like maybe there, something I didn't ask or something that's on your mind that you like to share with the listeners, that you think it's important for them to know. I think, you know, what would be very important to me for you, for people to share with the young, if you see a young person on a street or on somewhere, just be beside them and you don't have to say anything to them, just let them talk to you first, don't approach them and say, hey, were you going or whatever, you know, because sometimes that scares people away. But if a young person is saying to you that they're doing something or something's happening in their family life, just be there, listen, don't give them advice, advice is not a, not everyone wants advice, they just need to share their stuff. And I think sometimes we think teenagers, it's easy for us to give them orders and tell them what to do, that's not always the best thing to do with young people. I think being there laughing with them and enjoying their company is probably the best medicine you can give anybody that's younger than you and let them come to you with their voice, not you giving them your voice, that's what I would do. Sometimes that's what I do is I just laugh with them, listen to them, if they want to tell me to help them with something, then I will, I'll be there 100%. Manny Chakabee, a migwetch for sharing your life experience with us today. Okay, a migwetch for listening. Thank you for listening to this episode that featured two spirited elder Manny Chakabee. We can learn more about Manny in her book, A Two-Spirit Journey, the autobiography of a lesbian or two-way pre elder Manny Chakabee, published by the University of Manitoba Press. The next episode will feature Indigenous Physician Dr. Annalyn Waka-Gijik from Uikwankong and Ceditoritory on Manitulan Island, Ontario. I think that cultural safety is extremely important, especially when we're dealing with our Indigenous people, and I think part of that necessity is that providers need to know what the history is of Indigenous people, and we know our history. It's not up to us to educate people because if you tell somebody they have to learn something they want, and we see that. Thank you for listening to Indigenous Medicine stories with your host, Darryl Manitoba. [water flowing]