Two-Eyed Seeing: A Path Toward Balance, Healing, and Kinship w/ Albert Marshall

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to "Chicken Week" by Don, Indigenous Medicine Stories. I'm your host, Darryl Manitwabi. Today's episode features respected Mick Maul elder, Albert Marshall. Albert is a member of the Moose clan in Eskassoni First Nation and spokesperson of the Mick Maul Nation on the environment and cultural revitalization. With his late wife, Medina, he coined the term "to-ite scene" recognizing the strengths of both Indigenous and Western ways of knowing. I spoke with Albert earlier this year during his visit to the Northern Ontario School of Medicine University in Sudbury, and this is what he had to say. - My name is Albert Marshall, and I am from the Moose clan. I am from Megamargi, the Megamar and Wabanaki Confederacy in the Maritimes. But I do reside in the community called Eskassoni. Eskassoni has been very special for me because that's where I practically grew up. And on most majority of the population where they were forced to move there, so we do have quite a mixture of people from other parts, which really benefited Eskassoni because they brought forth their own perspectives. And I believe by living in one community with that many people, they found support and comfort with each other. And as a result of that closeness with the people, somehow managed to keep their language and a culture alive, even though in most cases, he had to be used underground because languages at that time, or culture was so much suppressed that we were not allowed to practice, or to be a Megamar person. So I would have to say that word "resilience" is something that could be used of providing people with some hope that if people were to live together, learn together, and accept the challenges as one, we will survive. But we cannot say without acknowledging the fact that it was love and compassion that really sustained that effort. After being exposed to no commerce, the longest in his hemisphere, where Eskissoni is still one of the strongest when it comes to language and culture, because they managed to hold on to their ways and adapt to the ways of another culture. And today, Kepert-Nallem, which we call Unamagi, Un is a fog, land up the fog. Eskissoni at this point in time, it's still very strong with culture, language and ceremonies. And I think some of it now is being taught in the school, so there is hope now that our language and our culture will never be wiped out. - So you grew up through quite a bit of experiences, so we read about this in the history books about Indian agents, residential schools, and government policy, and you talked about a resilience. Can you share a bit more about what that was like for you, like some experiences for those who never had to deal with that, like what was it like to be resilient in the face of all of that oppression? - Well, I don't know exactly what degree resilience is kicking, but I guess when people are threatened, when who they are is threatened, and the only result that they can come up with is, if we stick together on this issue, some will survive, and the ones that will survive will maintain and make sure that the culture and languages carried forward. It's the Eskisone among many challenges we had, for example, in 1939, government initiated this policy called centralization in which it jotted all the makemacs in the province of Inavaskoshia as we know it now, and they were forced to move to Eskisone. There was a period of time in which they had to be an adjustment made, because when a person lives into their own environment, they would become intimately knowledgeable and connected to that area in which it could adequately sustain themselves, because they just know exactly the patterns, the seasons, the migrations. So that part, I think, was the main reason why people were so determined, and their reward was, there's another energy called resilience, that no matter what's imposed upon you, you can't, and you should not denounce the essence of who you are, in this case, as a make-mock person. Because under the reign of the Indian agents, in reality, actually, we were in prison without walls. We could no longer allow to lead a reserve without a permit. We were encouraged to do some farming, but we weren't allowed to sell the surplus to the outside. So everything was kept in the inside. It wasn't until many, many years later, when the Indian agents were forced to move off to communities. And for our local people to take control of their own lives, to some degrees. And I remember back in 1970s, education wasn't something that we can talk about, as one of our successors, because in order for our children to be accepted in and non-native schools, the government had to pay large sums of money to those institutions before they were taking make-mock students by overcharging the tuition. And those tuition were paid up front in September. So it wasn't meant for our children to be educated, but rather, just to have a number, to justify the money that was spent. But eventually, people began to realize that we no longer can hunt and gather, that we now have to enter into another wage economy, and to be in that wage economy unit education. So they really focused on education. And eventually, with their efforts, they managed to build a high school on a reserve. Because I remember clearly back then, out of five reserves in Kepretten, we only had six high school graduates. And when we look at it in today's count, we don't know. There's so many hundreds, close to 100 graduates, and this gets only alone. And I wouldn't have the figures for the other communities, but I'm sure their success rate is just as evident. You've talked about most of the listeners, or all of the listeners will know about, you know, the work you've done. And I just wondered about if you can take us through some of the leadership roles that you've had over your life, maybe early on, and then talk a bit about that. And as time has passed, some of those roles you've had and how those all came to be. - Well, in our understandings of what our purposes are here, is to be cognizant of our impact of our actions. Because deep understanding about nature, people were comfortable the same. I'm not the superior being here. I'm just very much part and parcel. But unlike any other creature or species, we have brains. So let's use our brains to make sure that the actions people take has to be in harmony with nature. And if for some reason the ecological theory is compromised, then they have to be medicated and restored. So by applying those standards, he generally became a common knowledge that, no matter what we do in life, no matter what we do in how we sustain ourselves, we have to make sure that action, our action, will not impact the next seven generations. So I, for one, I believe the first time that really, I really got impacted on this environmental issues was in 1987 when my son died from a major danger. And as a result, that somehow grounded median, at least used a voice or whatever ways I can, our promoting balance and harmony with nature. And be somewhat a conduit to remind people that their actions cannot compromise to ecological integrity of the area. And if it does, then it has to be medicated. So with all the exploration in mining and so on, we kept up speaking our voices against it. So it's been so long I can't really name any specific other than that agent orange issue. I was really very privileged because many, many years ago I was given the honor to be a conduit for the community of Iskisoni to make sure that their concerns are gonna be mentioned and included in those sensitive areas that I've been. Because kept written, it's been, their main economy was actually extraction, whether it's mining or some other form of all explorations or whatever, in which we can see firsthand the negative impact that these operations were doing. And the government in English which seems to be just isn't care. And as these things were evolving, a lot of other people took it apart themselves to research and actually put in place areas in which we can use our special relationship with the land toward treaty and abregion rights and use that as a leverage of filing court cases against the company to seize their operations. One in New Year, that I can think of was, in our area, at least there was a big Gibson mine and this Gibson mine wanted to expand. But before they can expand, Bordorlakes is a quite, we used to be the largest inlet waters in the eastern part of Canada. So in order for the company to expand their operations, they had to drag the entrance of the Bordorlakes. To research and everything, we quickly realized that that's a lobster habitat. So we filed an in-junction against the company and by guys to our surprise, we won, we won the in-junction in which it stopped here. And then shortly after that, an organization in Murray's College, Unama Institute of Natural Resources, in which their mandate was to speak up against those operations that compromised the ecology of integrity of the area. And eventually, it got down to the education level in which after my late wife graduated, she began teaching at the University of Cape Britain. And at that time, there were no science students. As a matter of fact, she said, "You don't need two hands to count number of megama students going into the field of science." So with her and her colleagues and the communities, we eventually developed a course called Intrigate of Science Program, in which you did exactly that, by weaving our traditional knowledge to Western science. And as that process was ongoing, we can see what Western science is and what Western science can do. And a thing that's overarching was, Western science cannot see our natural world as a subject, but rather as an object. And Tordy's Intrigate of Science Program, that was instilled in not just the Aboriginal people, but other people as well, that we should be able to create entities that would not be as harmful as before. Like, we have to be very mindful that this project cannot and should not compromise the ecology of integrity. Relation, of course, we need economic opportunities. But with the human mind, we are capable of suggesting and creating alternatives. Alternatives that would be much more healthy and holistic. - So you've touched upon two things that are sometimes seen in opposition. So in the area of economic development, that's not always seen as an environmentally friendly thing, but you've talked about going about that in a good way. Can you talk about how it's possible to go that way? - Well, somebody else turned to us that were suggested. Wasn't well received because I believe the companies that were anxious to make big money on this issue. And that really came into reality in the '90s. I'm sure a lot of people have heard about the steel making in Sydney, Sydney, Nova Scotia, and invention became known as a tarpawn in which two research and two collaborations with people with science managed to identify all the components that were in there that were detrimental to the environment. So the whole island practically went up in the uproar of trying to force the government to mitigate that area. Of course, that didn't come about because eventually, they just encapsulated with concrete. And even as we speak, we don't know what the extent of the damage because it's now that all the compounds are now within the water system underground. So that was the biggest challenge along with what became known as a major short case. So environmental issues then became much more concerned but people were much more concerned of how our source of life has been treated. And they were never afraid to speak up against it because we have something that I believe can and should be marketed and that's the beauty, the natural beauty. So one of the other alternatives we're suggesting now of, instead of extraction is egotorism. So as to egotorism, it will allow nature to heal herself. And at least any development of that sort will be outlawed. And as this thing was evolving, eventually, another plan was sort of initiated call IPC, every year protected areas. And we can now, this is what we're solely working on at this point of trying to secure as much land that is extra sensitive. Lands that are being used exclusively for ceremonial purposes, we manage to secure some protection for those lands when they come under this regime of IPCA because it's a government funded program and it's in its government initiated. So the more areas that we can access and put it under protection, it will open up an opportunity for people to seriously look at embracing and utilizing and using nature for them to generate economic opportunities because there will be a lot of, the other area that's not been, it's not really been well received as the AD said. Unemployment for the Aboriginal people is so great. And if we can somehow come together and develop a program in which using signs to help the guide us and to help us to mitigate and to restore the damages. For example, there was a lot of fracking being done at the time and we did learn that for each world that's going to be fracked, it's going to require 8 million gallons of fresh water and that 8 million gallons of water will be so heavily contaminated that you can't even put back into the system. So we do have in Nova Scotia, for example, approximately 800 million gallons of contaminated water sitting in these holding pots. And of course, successful I've gotten this initiative going in which the Aboriginal people will be doing the mitigation. We can mitigate that contaminated water, at least it can be put back into the system. But right now, there's not a holding pot in Nova Scotia just for that purpose. All the waters have been contaminated. And then as these things were evolving, people began to see then, culture has to be, language has to be involved. And eventually, through the works of many, including my daughter here now, Michelle, they are now including in part of their curriculums, language and land-based training because those two are so intertwined, you can't separate, you can't do one without the other. Because our language has come from the land. So even though sometimes we become anxious, but in reality, if we do something in haste, it wouldn't be as effective as it is on the property. And by consulting and relying on people. So this is how I was honored of being getting lost or which translate to move their words forward into these areas of concern, environmental issues, for example, or areas that environment is going to be. And that encompasses all, not just water, but also the other creatures that rely on you much today, for your survival. You touched upon language and you mentioned culture and you mentioned education. And you're known as a strong advocate of these three areas amongst more. Can you share why you think that's important? Why is that important for the McMaw people and other indigenous people? Well, I have to say that the reason why we are in such a state environmentally or otherwise, we have to somehow admit all those things had to be taught in which when we question the aerocentric system, we can clearly see how science has been manipulated in which their efforts would be and will be seen by the McMaw people. Why is science only being used as an arm of destruction? As wonderful as it is, why can we transform it to help us mitigate and to restore the damages that have been done? And with that effort, and I'm sure it will generate this as much or more economic opportunities because extractions. Capretin was only could only be economically sustainable, but as these things were evolving quickly, people quickly realized, by God we have exhausted the carrying capacity of the system with the rate of extraction. And we also exhausted the cleansing capacity of the system with the rate of injection of toxins into her, in which she can no longer cleanse herself. And if she cannot regenerate herself and cleanse herself, how much of an impact is someone that's going to have on the humanity? So slowly and surely, people are beginning now to at least not just listen, but also join whenever it's an action needed. And you all heard about Donald Marshall's case, what's fission? And since then, our grandmothers really stepped forward, and they managed to stop a lot of these big projects. One of them was in Sturiac River, just a few years ago, where the old company wanted to store natural gas into the salt caverns. Since people weren't sure what the outcome would be, when you inject all those gases into the caverns, it will display sodium. And what impact will that have on the river? So by their resilience and their determination, they managed to get the company to back off eventually, just walked away from it. So you call the protest, or we don't call it a protest, we just, we call that exercising our inherent responsibilities, to ensure that the actions taken has to be in harmony with nature. And if not harmony, let's sit down together and create an alternative in which all those threats wouldn't be so obvious. Yeah, most of the listeners will know that your name is UN, your late wife, Medina, you're both known, two-wide seeing us synonymous with the both of UN. Can you tell us the story about how that concept came to be, and what it's all about? As I said, when the initial discussions were ongoing about, how can we encourage our human students to adhere to Western, to Western science program? And then, of course, the answer was very simple. If we can somehow be given the opportunity to weave traditional knowledge into the system, that would be the way, in one way, in which we can generate a cannabis without compromising the ecological integrity of the area. So anyway, since at that point in the '70s, there wasn't that many being a master of tearing to the education, to the higher level of education. My late wife, when she first started at CBU, there was only a handful of students. But as this program was being developed, and people began to see the benefits of it, the numbers quickly crippled. Because it was something that the Aboriginal students can see themselves or see their knowledge and their sciences included into the mainstream. And that was the springboard, I believe that our young people saw that I can get the kind of an education system that I need without having to be concerned how this education system is going to deny my sense of place and my knowledge as to how we can work together, learn together at the same time, our efforts were benefit to the source of life in which we all depend upon, because a lot of terminologies were developed. To what I see, and of course you look at everything from your Aboriginal, from Aboriginal land or perspective, and use the other land to see where and how you can look at another part of the knowledge, how we can use that knowledge in conjunction with the traditional knowledge and weave it together. So the action will be much more harmonious with nature. So after that science program was developed, an integrative science program, that was the gateway in which he'd open up in the minds of our Aboriginal students, that yes, I can access that knowledge space without I compromising the essence of who I am as a big mob, as a big mob person. And he would also create an opportunity for me to excel and to keep exercising the responsibilities that we have. By coming up with simple terminologies like make your asteroids humans are responsible, and with that I think he has gone a long ways in which people are now very mindful of looking at a project and see how that's going to impact. We use the word source of life, which is water, air and soil. And the real relatives we saw solely depend upon them. And if they're not healthy, if she's not healthy, the environment, how can we be healthy? So these are the simple terms I think that we use to motivate people to constantly suggest and look for alternatives as to how we can go about sustaining ourselves with a compromise in the integrity of the area. The message you have is one of collaboration and relationship, and the relationship between indigenous knowledge and science hasn't always been presented that way. And can you talk about where that comes from, that harmonious and collaboration, that message, you're speaking against a history of division. And I just wondered like, how did that? Well, first of all, I think it had to be highlighted as wonderful as science is, but science to date was used exclusively as a norm of destruction, because the main concern was how will this project maximize the efforts of few investors, without two religions to the environment and to enter the people in the area. So people in general, like I find, at the time, because Kepwritten wasn't really an area in which there was a lot of migration, but people really were there for a long period of time. So it was a little easier to mobilize people and empower them to begin to speak up. And with that outburst of concerns, the government had no other government in this industry had no choice but to begin to listen. But it's not to say that our people didn't suffer because initially they were incarcerated, charged so many different ways that they just had no means to get out of it, because to get out of it you've got to pay a fine. And since most communities in our area, their main economy is welfare, and that welfare only received enough just to barely get by, without having to worry about paying heavy fines for something. But at the unity, I think it's quite evident today in which whenever there is uncertainty of something, the whole communities have come together in a very short period of time. So the consciousness or the concerns of nature, it's very evident because of all these people that were doing the work in the past. I've kept pushing forward, talking about it, and creating alternatives. Because, but one thing that's now again, when we start reflecting, one thing that we need to notice was that there's nothing there for our young people. So now let's again look at the education system, and how can we be instrumental of transforming this education to include always of known and being into the curriculum? Because no one really knows what would be the psychological impact a person would have, if they're denied the essence of who they are, to their language, to their ceremonies and to, because most of those ceremonies, it was a foundation for them to see themselves how they are with nature. And by performing ceremonies, actually they were just expanding their knowledge, that this is very sacred, and this has to be handled in a certain way, because we quickly realized the short, short falls of signs we learned to our colleagues at universities, of conveying to the institution that signs could only look upon nature as an object. And once you put it into that realm, people are not going to feel guilty because it's an object. But now, since traditional knowledge has now been weaved into it, people are beginning to see the earth little differently, that this beautiful creation is alive, and anything that's alive has to be respected, appreciated, and taken care of. And with that now, it's an overarching concern that I feel that young people do have, and they are more than willing, but since I don't know how long Michelle has been with that organization, in which language and culture was never part and parcel of the education system, but now they are working towards achieving that end. I wondered if you had some, you know, our visit here is coming to an end. I just wondered if you had some final thoughts to share with the listeners on something you feel that's important for them to know. Well, here I am in Sudbury. It's a quite distance from where I come from, but the issue that I am talking about at the state of our environment is not local, it's not regional, it's not national, it's global. So I believe that if somehow we can create a network from coast to coast with our Aboriginal brothers and sisters, to agree on certain objectives, I believe only then we will see the benefits of how and where our traditional knowledge could be instrumental of guiding people so that their actions will not impact the next seven generations because they are, if we look at it realistically, the young people are leaders, they're going to take over. So there has to be a lot of effort put forth of building a good foundation to our young populations of who they are by offering opportunities in which their essence of who they are would be reinforced in the education system because again, as wonderful as education system has done for the humanity, but I think it can, it can be improved by allowing Aboriginal and traditional knowledge to be taught and used into the institution. So the mindset will begin to shift and that mindset will will be the instrument of forcing the companies to constantly seek an alternative in which those alternatives wouldn't be the main instrument of compromising the ecological integrity of the area and that alternative can be if we remember with a national issue on mitigation and restoration and bring that forward into the institutions to of using science as a tool because we need science as a tool to help us mitigate and to restore the damage that have been done especially with water and especially in forestry in any sector because obviously the industry and the government, they don't know, they don't know the definition of sustainability their definition is how can we sustain something so few can benefit but I would kind of say everyone should benefit from the Michael Biel to the to the biggest memo and including including humans Albert Marshall thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today thank you very much for having me it's an honor for me thank you for listening to this episode that featured McMaw elder and co-originator of the two-way scene concept Albert Marshall of Eskisoni First Nation the next episode will feature participants of the cultural practitioners gathering in Amjunang, Sarniap First Nation and self-western Ontario. Thank you for listening to Indigenous Medicine stories with your host, Darrell Manitwabi.