Speaker 1steven yes thanks for coming down man i appreciate it thank you for inviting thank you for the invitation i want to say this off the top for people that don't don't know this is the power of recovery and helping somebody else so i met you in a treatment center that i was in you came in doing an alumni meeting and you came back to carry the message and continue to do what was done to you right and so the first time i saw you come in the first this is the usually the first thing i notice about people that are in recovery and have been in recovery and have that sort of look about them is that they're not alone that that twinkle in their eyes and when you're so when i relapsed after seven and a half years i saw you guys walking through the door you just the first thing i thought was wow look at these these guys are happy for one they're happy to be here and this is when you came back right yeah this is when i came back and i was in that rehab i'm like i'm a piece of shit how did i end up here i see you guys walk in week after week and it reminds me of oh my god that's i used to look like i i remember that feeling of just being happy to live life and i hadn't had that for a while and so you came in with that that sparkle in your eye you had recovery in you you were talking about recovery and i could tell how passionate and how much it meant to you i just want to say thank you for that and i've told you this before and you know but that that's what we need to do here because that's how that helped me in the beginning remember that i could get back there and that i wasn't a piece of shit i wasn't done i wasn't i could get back there we talked about this before
Speaker 2you and i sat down we kind of touched on it this is what was done for you for me and how you just expressed how you saw the twinkle and eyes and you saw like people who seem seemed happy seemed to have a calm seemed to have some serenity i saw the same thing when i was in your shoes six and a half years ago people walked in i was skeptical but they had there was just something there was just something and i and i want and and it made me feel feel a part of something so i i know what it's like man and uh this is what we do we give back right yeah without
Speaker 1expectation either it's like i'm just going to show up i'm going to tell my story if some if it helps somebody great that's the goal but if it doesn't i'll try it again next week yeah yeah and
Speaker 2and look i got that place was right around the corner from home right so like for me every it was it was wednesday nights every wednesday i'm going home i'm going back to treatment right i'm going back to treatment and if somebody's there and and i make a connection great if not it's a good remember one for me too so it was self-serving almost in a way if you
Speaker 1that's okay yeah yeah so tell me um usually i like to start off the podcast with what paint a picture for everybody what your last day of using looked like oh boy the last day so it's a
Speaker 2i'll give you the date friday december the 14th of 2019 i come to you know what i mean when i say come to wake up all right wake up uh and i think i'm pretty sure it's about 9 00 a.m but i have no idea what what day it is i have no idea what time it is and i'm in a hotel room and i'd been in this hotel room for five months in isolation i've got goosebumps right now what's that i remember that yeah you've heard me talk about this before i'm sitting in this hotel room and and prior to that last day it was groundhog day day after day after day after day and i'd i'd accepted that i was never going to leave here and there was no sadness there was no poor me because i was just numb the whole time at this point when i was when i was awake and and you know what you hear these these these terminologies like hopelessness despair uh terror bewilderment things like that those phases are are those are phases in those moments of clarity but but that day are that that last day you specifically asked about coming to and uh and hitting it right hitting it getting high getting high thinking it's just another day in the five months and that last day uh there was a knock on the doors two police officers and i had no idea that it was about to end that was that last day man it was it was groundhog day interrupted by a couple of police officers uh doing a i thought it was a wellness check it turned out to be a form two familiar with the form no what's that a form two is issued by a justice of the peace they sign off and it it recognizes or to ignore it allows the police to to find the individual take away their rights for 72 hours because they're considered a threat to their own well-being but a judge has to be convinced to sign that and that was my mother's doing so they served me the form two i'm high i'm trying to read this and and i'm trying to manipulate too right i got i got two cops at the door to the hotel room it's it's it's all garbage behind me and i'm high and i'm thinking i'm gonna get busted because there's paraphernalia everywhere they're like we got a form two and i'm like okay let me read this thing but i'm just sketching out in my head i'm just like how do i get these guys out of here and how do i get back in there to hit the pipe um and they and then we left and i all i'm thinking is i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get
Speaker 1back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon i'm gonna get back here soon they took you with them they took me with them so what does that look like you go what happens after that and you were doing stimulants just just to be clear here like at this point i was doing
Speaker 2smoking crack cocaine smoking crack cocaine uh free base in it in the hotel room had my setup there so what does it look like they hand me the form too they say they want to come in help me get my clothes and i'm thinking man they're gonna find the bag and i'm and i'm cooked and they looked right at it and they didn't even say a thing and i was i was kind of freak i look back in retrospect and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna get back in there and i'm like oh my god i'm these these these guys i don't know if angel's the right word but but they they picked the right people like i could tell that these officers they had it seemed to me they had experience with people who are sick because they treated me with kindness compassion they were gentle i was scared just because they were cops but they they did not do anything to make me feel afraid whether it was their behavior or anything like that they were like hey man let's just come with us we're just gonna take you to the hospital uh for an evaluation so i grabbed i grabbed a backpack it was december and i'd been in that hotel room since july so all i had was a little backpack i was wearing a hoodie i had t-shirt i had socks on underwear i'd been wearing the same thing for five months so like there were holes in it it soiled it was and i thought okay i'll just go to i'll go i'll go do what i gotta do and and i can weasel my way out of this and get back to the room never happened that was it so that form two essentially stated that i was a threat to myself i go to the hospital uh i'm under psychiatric evaluation so i go through a process where it's an intake nurse another nurse a psychotherapist another health care professional so like three or four you know it's still a bit of a blurb but there were three or four people who analyzed me from 11 a.m starting at about 11 a.m and by 6 p.m they said yeah we're keeping you overnight yeah and i was pissed all right because i thought i thought i was going to weasel my way out of that um
Speaker 1and you're there all day not using right so you're like jonesing and sketching out and all these emotions are going through your mind and in the hotel room when the cops came
Speaker 2so there's the two beds and between the beds is the night table you ever seen mentos yeah there's mints so i got the perfect mentos cooked rock and then i want to when i hear the knock i stick it in the drawer and the whole time like you just said i'm jonesing and i'm sitting in the hospital oh you don't know you know what's on my mind that mentos looks like i'm like i i know where it is i can vision it right that's i'm obsessing and i don't even know it right i'm just gotta get back gotta get back gotta get back um but that uh that was it man
Speaker 1that was it and then so from there you got did you go to treatment right away or how did what
Speaker 2did that look like you know before before i uh
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Speaker 2on the uber app before they knocked on that door and i told you i was in there for five months there was a moment where you know the hopelessness despair and all of that stuff i would have these I would have these sober moments and I'm like, believe i can't believe i'm in this position because just three years early i'm traveling the world i got a small business everything's great my relationships are amazing with my friends and my family so i think and i'm sitting i'm sitting in that hotel room and i say to myself please make this stop please make this stop and i don't know you know i look back again a lot of this is looking back i don't know what made me say that i don't know who i was talking to it was a fleeting moment and then i just went back to getting high well two weeks later these guys knock on the door and um and they take me to the hospital and after i told you you know they kept me for a little while and i fell asleep on the gurney i figured they're going to keep me overnight i had no idea how this form two had been issued and then they tapped me on the shoulder one of the nurses and they said on the other side of that door is your mother and i and i kind of freaked out all right because because i love my mom and and our relationship has never ever like it's been all a great a great relationship my entire life and they said she's on the other side of that door should we let her in and i said no i blurted it out and they said well we could you want us to tell her to leave and i'm like no because i was caught off guard right and and i'm like my mind my mind's racing my mind's racing i i know now that if i had said yes right away it means the game's over and i thought about that moment i was on the bed going please make this stop and here's my chance and i said let her in so you asked the question what happened she walks in we hadn't seen each other in five months i hadn't shaved i hadn't showered i didn't brush my teeth uh probably looked like a neanderthal at that point i saw the photos i kind of did and she walked over and in behind her within five minutes walks my two high school friends my best friend scott since i was 16 years old or 14 years old my high school friend shona and i'm i'm still high right and it's saturday and i'm thinking to myself this is what a coincidence everybody's showing up right i would i think you figured out right they they had they had coordinated an effort to find me and to and to and and to get me help so they said listen if we love each other then we're going to help each other we're going to help each other i'm so humiliated and embarrassed i was in tears and they're and and shown as like grabbing my face and she's like i don't want to hear you cry we're going to fix you up um and my best friend scott he's like hey man you want to go for a smoke i'm like yeah and my mom's chilling out a little bit now because she's finally seeing me but she's still in tears and uh and they're like okay if you want help we're going to help you and the nurse comes over and says you know it's a 72 hour form two they get to we're going to let you leave if you have a plan and my mother leans in and goes we have a plan and i said what is that and the nurse goes what is that and they said we're taking them to rehab and she looks at me she says is that okay i said yeah that's okay i didn't even question it at that point because i had my family with me when i say my family i mean scott shown up and my mom so like so like there was this instant everything's gonna be okay kind of feel um it's kind of weird in the eye i'm freaked out um but i'm also going into withdrawal and now i've got my family here and my friends here saying we're going to get you help like everything seemed to be moving so fast but but because of the relationships i've had with everybody i just knew everything's i just i had this feeling everything's going to be okay if i just if i just do what my friends and my family tell me because i know they care about me and they took me to rehab at about by the time i got to rehab it's one o'clock in the morning and and uh and we're in hospital close to the hospital closing it's december it's december 15th now all right it's cold it's good it's cold um your ass is peeking out and your ass is hanging out i got these socks they took my gold necklace away they took uh they took my jewelry away they took everything away my watch and i'd never been through anything like this before too right so it's like just this on this uncertainty what's gonna happen where am i going i'm going to rehab i'm 46 years old i'm going to rehab fuck how did i get here yeah yeah yeah you know what anthony that's exactly what it was it's like and all of that all of that frustration and and like bewilderment how did this happen man but i got mom sitting beside me and i got scott sitting beside me and i got shona there and so it was it was like so many crazy emotions going on at the same time you i love what you said there you pretty much
Speaker 1summed up all of recovery to me anyways which is i don't know what's going to happen next this this sort of faith that just has to happen for us i'm gonna i'm going to trust that this is going to work out because i don't see any other way on my own so i'm gonna listen to somebody else for a change and i'm gonna jump it is it's a leap of faith but something that deep down inside of me is just telling me that it's going to be okay i don't know that it's going to be perfect it's not going to i don't know if it's going to work but it's i'm going to be okay and so that that leap like that right there is the crux of recovery i i still do that today i don't want to go to this recovery thing i don't want to go to this meeting i don't want to help this person but i'm going to do it anyways because i know i'm going to
Speaker 2be okay and i know i need to do that thing so you use you use the you use the the three words leap of faith i've lost track of how many times i've either said that out loud or thought about it and i think about it when i and when i and when more often it's a thought and it's it's just and and like you said it's something within saying it's the right thing to do it might be the uncomfortable thing to do but my but my my gut is saying it's the right thing to do that's that thing that i always ignored before because it wasn't self-serving right for for 46 years or i'd listen to it if i if sparingly yeah when it was convenient yeah when it served my immediate needs and wants right but but that term that term you just use leap of faith i can look back now over six and a half years and and say how many times have i taken a leap of faith i've lost track i've done things now not not you know i use the i use this this um analogy of to get from point a to point b i always needed to see the straight line and know what that what what's going to happen in that path if i'm willing to to walk that path now it's like point a is is where i'm at right now point b is where i want to be i don't know how i don't know the path but i'm going to take a leap of faith and that leap of faith is usually because i'm following somebody else's direction i'm trusting in in people who seem to seem to have how you described at the beginning all of this the spark in their eye a calm serenity yeah um a genuine desire to help others and and it's not necessarily expressed in their words but it's it's it's a vibe it's a vibe 100
Speaker 1it's a body language it's a feeling when i'm around those people i feel safer i feel calm it's like taking a benzo when i'm around certain people right like there's there's pillars in my recovery today men that i just i want what they have and what they have is not cars it's not the the the job the money the income the the house
Speaker 2it's things just seem to like roll off of so let me ask you a question now i've shared this with people who sometimes that will ask um will ask a question or when i see that i think that somebody has something to give and they don't even know it i'll say i'll say i'll say something along the lines of you have this thing about you and when you are in the room others feel better you may not know the impact you have on others you may not know how you are perceived have you ever been in a situation where sometimes there's just somebody in the room and you just feel better and they have no idea they have no idea unless you tell them absolutely
Speaker 1it happens when i go to recovery meetings i walk in and i'm having a loud day happens all the time i'm having a i don't want to do this i'm i have to do i'm in a have to mood you know those have to i have to do this i have to instead of a get to i get to do recovery i get to show up i get to be sober what a blessing i'm in a have to mood and i have to sit in traffic on the way but but but whatever the thing and then i show up and i'm like wow i get that relief that alcohol and drugs used to give me except this time it's real and it lasts and it's it has depth and weight to it so absolutely
Speaker 2that environment you spoke about i can feel what you just talked about because because i'll walk i'll walk into those same those same recovery meetings and and there'll be certain people not all in fact it's it's it's a small amount it's a handful but they'll walk in and just something like oh i'm glad they're here oh it's good to see or they smile at you yeah and say
Speaker 1hey steven yeah oh yeah people know my name yeah that was it that was a that was a that was a big one people remember my name here and they care about how i'm doing yeah yeah how many times do you spend uh you know out using a trap house bar where people give a yeah
Speaker 2No, you know, you talk in the beginning of this, you talked about how, how we met at a treatment center through an alumni program. And, and when I was in the treatment center as a client and alumni members were coming, I remember I thought they were paid actors because, because it was, it was not a free treatment. It wasn't, it wasn't, it was a private facility and I'm fortunate that my family had the resources, extremely fortunate. So I knew that there was a, it was a pretty penny to go there. So when I was new and I knew nothing about recovery and they said, listen, on, on, on this night, alumni members are going to come in and talk to you. In my head, I'm like these paid actors, man, they're going to come in here and they're going to wave their finger in my face. And you say, you got to do this and you got to do that. And I'll never forget. They, they came up and they just said, hi, my name is so-and-so. What's your name? And I said, my name is Steven. And they said, nice to meet you. And they would just walk away. They just, just like, they didn't, they didn't wave their finger in my face. And further to your point, they came back the next week and now I got this attraction to them, but I still don't trust them. And they came up to me and they said, your name is Steven, right? And that moment, like you said, they remembered my name. They remembered my name. And when you're at your lowest point, something so small can mean so much. Yeah. That felt good. That felt good. That felt good. It felt good. And that, and that comes back to that thing. Like, you know what? Everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. And I'm not alone. I'm not alone.
Speaker 1Yeah. So we, you talked about how did I get here? Let's go back a bit. How did you walk me through the progression of your illness, your disease? How did it start? And how did you end up in that motel room?
Speaker 2Okay. I'm going to condense 32 years of drinking and drugging. I'm going to try. Give us the highlights. Yeah. Yeah. The highlights. Okay. I see, I see, I see what alcohol, you know, again, so much of this is in retrospect. I see what drugs and alcohol did for me. And I mean, uh, I hear, I hear people talk about all the time. It's like a pressure relief valve, right? Just, um, and, and, and once that pressure relief valve has been released, now I can dance. Now I can talk. Um, the mind's quiet and I don't even know all of this stuff, but that happened for, for decades, for like 20, over 20 years. So when you, you know, that, that progression, it also, it, it, it starts with, with, with, you know what? I know that I can find relief every day just, just, just by having a drink. And it's all I thought about every day. Even when I'm working every day, I'll, I'm thinking at five o'clock, man, when the day's done, I'm going to have a couple of beers, maybe smoke a joint, you know, 10 years later, you know, I got, got a little baggy, just have a couple of lines. The progression was, was, was, was for me seems so long because I hear so many stories about how it's quick. Um, alcoholism and addiction, it was slowly, slowly, slowly reeling me in, but it had me here for the longest time. And, and, and it's like, I was just doing this my whole life, just keep my chin above water and just trying to put on this mask of like car, women, money, property, shoes, stuff, and never, never, ever finding any kind of like long-term happiness. So all I'm thinking about is drinking for decades, for 20 years, trying to, to find something to fill this emptiness, this void. I used to ask myself, I used to have this question with my mom and my brother when things were good. I'm like, what's the point, right? What's the point? You know what I mean when I say that? What's the point? What's, why am I here? You know, what, what, what's, what's my legacy? What's my purpose? Where am I going to find fulfillment? And, and to, to come back to your question, like what, this progression I'm searching, I'm searching for something because this thing just won't shut off. I can't find purpose. I can't find happiness. I can't find serenity. But when I have a drink, all of that stuff goes away. And then, and then two years before that hotel room incident, um, I'm drinking every day, but I'm going to work every day. I'm drinking every day, but I'm playing golf. I'm drinking every day, but I'm going on vacations. I'm drinking every day, but I'm showing up to birthday parties. I'm showing up to family events. I'm showing up to Christmas. I'm showing up to birthday dinners, uh, Christmas dinners, birthdays. Like I'm, I'm, I'm meeting what I perceive to be my responsibilities and, and, and, and fulfilling my part of relationships. But this void, man, this void, I can't fill it. And then, and then in 2016, it's like, you know what, man, I'm just going to go on a little bit of a break. I'm going to go on a little bit of a break. I'm going to go on a little bit of a break. Christmas is coming. I just got back from vacation. Um, I'll just, you know, I'm self-employed at this time and I got lots of money in the bank. I got no debt, got property. The business is doing okay. I can afford to just take like a, you know, a six week, just hit it, man, for six weeks. Once Christmas and New Year's is done, I'll go back to work. That day never came. That's when this, this inability to stop happened. This inability to put it down, this inability that 1am I'm going to close the bag, this inability at 2pm I'm going to, or sorry, 2am I'm going to, I'm going to close the bottle and go to work tomorrow. I, I couldn't put it down. And for three years I went through
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Speaker 2more on the Uber app. That phase of, you know, that, that knot in your, that knot. Oh, I'm in some serious trouble. And in that three years, that would eventually lead to, that point where it's like, man, I can't imagine continuing like this, but I can't imagine stopping that dilemma, that big dilemma, right? So that it took a long time. You know, I told you when I was in my teens, it, it got me, but it took 20, it took 25 to 30 more years before it finally pulled me under. And, uh, if not for that knock on the door and the lead up to it, you know, I asked, I asked my mother, I said to my mom, I said, how did you get a judge to sign a form two, right? The form two is that form that says I'm a threat to myself because I never said to you, I was going to harm myself. And she says to me, she says it was one mother talking to another mother, the judge she spoke to when she got that appointment to meet with the justice of the peace. She told me how she said to that judge, do you have children? And she said that when she saw the judge's name on, uh, on the desk, she wanted to be respectful and say, your honor, your honor. But in this moment, she was desperate to save her son. So she's dressed the judge by the judge's name and said, do you have children? Um, so wow. Things, things work, things worked out behind the scenes without me even knowing. I mean, talk about divine
Speaker 1intervention, man. Like what are the chances in that moment, you know, that that links up and who to your point, who knows where you'd be today if, if that moment didn't come.
Speaker 2The moment I said, please make this stop that fleeting moment. And I'm, and who am I talking to? Right. Probably around the same time. My mom's sitting with a judge. Two weeks later, the police are at the door. 12 hours later, I'm in the hospital. Within an hour, my friends show up. 12 hours later, I'm in, I'm at a treatment center. And then people are walking in, giving me hope, like how you talked about our, we were both in the treatment center and you're seeing alumni members walking. What happened in such a short amount of time? Is that odd?
Speaker 1Yeah. So tell me, let's walk me through, because a lot of people go to rehab and most of them don't get it. Right. What do you think you did differently to, to have that recovery click, to have that gift of desperation last long enough where you could get some months, some days, some months, and then some years.
Speaker 2We, we, we use the word hope, right? A lot, right? We're, we're, people like us are often hopeless and we're looking for hope. So what's going to give us hope? Usually I shouldn't say hope. Hope started with, with the support of the family. But you said when I'm in treatment, what changed? um or or what what was the catalyst i guess right what was the catalyst the catalyst for me was and this is part of that um the sequence of events were were were divine intervention you said the people who were there when i arrived were the right people at the right time for me there were counselors who i had immediate trust in look one one guy said to me he goes steven um did you try to quit and i remember thinking to myself is this a test right like i'm in school right like what's the right answer yeah and and in my head i'm like and i spit out the truth i say yes i tried to quit and i was i felt so humiliated and embarrassed because i felt like i failed right and he put his hand on my shoulder he says i believe your kid because i tried to moments right they're moments right like oh okay i'm not the only one and you seem pretty happy so maybe i should ask some questions so so so now i'm getting now i'm getting hope and i told you about the alumni members right they're giving me hope but there was another turning point so there's six clients in the in the house when i get there five or six and they're all young and we're sitting around in group sessions and they're bitching and complaining they're bitching and complaining my mom my dad my boyfriend the this and that nobody's taking responsibility right now i'm new so i'm like all right this is how people talk well i'm blaming everybody else now too i got problems too yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna put you you want to play victim card yeah let me tell you about let me tell you about all the people that have wronged me yeah it's not my fault i'm here but then two women two women walked into the treatment center two new clients and every morning we would share and and it's funny because i was i was enamored by these women because i was physically attracted to them right they were cute that was my first thought right i'm like yeah they're pretty cute but in those morning sessions instead of bitching and complaining like everybody else was doing they said you know what i had sobriety and i lost it because i didn't do this they started taking responsibility for their everybody else was playing the victim card they were playing uh they they were taking responsibility for their actions and they were taking responsibility for their actions and they and being honest about their shortcomings and i was sitting there in that room going what the fuck is this holy shit a different language at that point completely they were speaking a language of recovery spiritual ease yeah spiritually yeah so so so it's funny because because i'm looking at them going yeah she's cute but then it turned into holy shit man and these are women right what i don't mean to diminish the others but they were younger and and and but these were grown-ass women and i realized right away they've had recovery they're taking responsibility i'm really interested in what they're what they have to say and i stopped hanging out with these people in rehab and i started to follow them and listen to them you know you talked about having been in and out before it's like it's like it's like i had an unfair advantage because they were there as opposed to if there was nobody there who had any experience sitting beside me like my uh my colleagues i'll call them right so so that's what what changes the people i met the alumni members the counselors who expressed that they understood what it's like they tried to quit too and hearing hearing these um these two women talk about how come what they stopped doing and what they're doing and what they're doing and what they're doing and what led them to going back out and there was one other moment too we would watch these videos anthony and we had literature and i'm still in the fog i'm in my first couple of weeks so i'm not retaining a whole lot of information i'm hearing stuff in the early but by the end of the day i'm like what is it they said that got me so excited earlier in the day i can't even remember and they said that i think four percent of those who get 24 hours of recovery will make it to one year and i looked in the room and i said i'm better than you i'm better than you i'm better than i started comparing myself to everybody right and and it's and it's like i took it as a challenge i don't want to be that 96 and i realized the odds were stacked against me so so like i i remember making this commitment i'm gonna do everything i'll show you i'll show you it's kind of how i felt i will do i will give this my best effort it was ego it was literally it was ego driven at that point right it was my ego going out i'll show you i'll show you i'll show you i'll show you i'll show you
Speaker 1everybody yeah which is interesting because you know that it ends up hurting you more than any but ego is a funny thing because we still need it right so when we talk about deflating the ego i need some of that ego to thrive in life and and in recovery so to your point that's why you hear a lot of people say fake it till you make it like for me that works in the beginning it does fake it till you make it i'm gonna do all these things to show them to be because it's ego i want pride i want to recover i want to you want to feel good i want to feel good i don't want to be the loser if you will of whatever in your mind it works in the beginning and so i mean hey if that works for you i can relate a lot to to my first time around treatment i was at a i was 23 and i had this was in minnesota in 2015 it was all young guys i was the oldest one there as well at 23 23 i went to a kid's treatment center yeah dude there was there was people there there was kids there 14 15 16 they look like zombies at 16 years old it was heartbreaking to see and i did the exact same thing you did i i turned a corner at some point where i was like you start to separate the people between the people that want to want recovery and the people that are just checking the boxes and doing it or it's their sixth seventh eighth rehab like i had run into people that they had been in the u.s it's a lot different because insurance covers a lot of rehab so right these
Speaker 2in and out in and out yeah they're recycling and it's like a break too right it's like absolutely you know go get some reset my tolerance yeah yeah i get a good night's sleep get some food in me get
Speaker 1a little exercise exactly detox safely so i don't have to kick kick withdrawal a lot of people were in there for opiates as well yeah at that point but i i just i was attracted to that thing these these these kids younger than me happy purposeful trying to help other people smiling yeah i was trying to help other people smile and i just i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and i was trying to help other people smile and if they went left i went left if they went right i went right do you do you did you ever go through
Speaker 2moments where there's like clicks yeah all right yeah and my perception because listen i'm i'm i'm sizing everybody up i still catch myself doing it all the time right i catch myself doing it all the time everything everything's either better than or less than very rarely is equal to if you're less than i you know then then i don't need your adulation your affirmation and and i might want to tell you what's wrong with you and if i think you're better than i want your affirmation i want you to notice me and if you don't well then fuck you right i'm jealous of
Speaker 1you and he must have he must have got that car from his parents yeah oh yeah yeah yeah everything
Speaker 2i liked about you but you didn't give me you didn't acknowledge me well you don't deserve it right yeah you didn't work for it but but the click thing right you like you you talked about you know you saw things and and i remember sometimes making that semi-conscious decision i want to hang it that looks like fun but that doesn't look like i'm going to get better doing that right so they're hanging out in the back of the treatment center smoking butch talking shit yeah yeah yeah um these are the here's the nerds over here you know reading their literature doing their homework you know showing up on time you know they're not watching uh i forget that show something island love island gilligan's island no no it was one of those one of those matchmaker ones right love island yeah every night they're pushing the couches together and they're sitting around we gotta watch this i'm like oh my god i gotta get out of here yeah i gotta get out of here but building a resentment i'm playing ping pong just to piss them off so they could hear the
Speaker 1but it's it's the difference between like performing or uh and like truly wanting to change right yeah
Speaker 2um i don't even i don't remember you know it's you've been through it twice you know going to treatment three times three okay i don't recommend it no not going back maybe the first time if you need it right yeah try not to go back so much so many of the decisions that i made early on i feel like like i wasn't i wasn't consciously making a decision i was listening to something inside of me for the first time saying hey man you might want to keep your mouth shut and do as you're told this time and a big part of it was hey man your mother saved your life you know your brother's on the other side of the world and he's uh he's trying to save your life your best friend showed up and walked you to the through those doors of treatment like Part of me wanted to do it for them. you know, I, it was, it's, uh, it was an interesting time. It was an interesting time, the uncertainty, the fear, the anxiety, but all rooted, but, but what, what, what soothed all of that. And we talked about in the beginning, if I just do what I'm told, everything's going to be okay. And I had this, I had, I had faith and I didn't even know it. I had faith.
Speaker 1You, you, I'm happy you brought that up. Cause I actually wanted to go into that. And I, I talk about it a lot on here, you know, the, the word God and faith, and it can be hard to talk about, right. But I, I try not to shy away from it because it's such an important part of my recovery. And for me, it's spirituality. It's not religion. Talk to me about faith and how it's changed over time and where it kind of plays a role in your recovery.
Speaker 2Okay. So, so we're two guys talking, we kind of know each other a little bit. We got to know each other a little bit over time. Let me ask, I want to ask you something because it might help me to articulate. Where this fits into my life. Before you got sober. And if I said, if I asked you, what was God, what would you say?
Speaker 1I would say church. I would say Christianity. I would say religion.
Speaker 2Okay. And if you didn't do what you were told were the consequences.
Speaker 1Yeah. So I, you, you, you sit in line, you stand in line, act in line, or you're not going to make it to heaven. Really? Like, that's sort of the preconceived notion as a child.
Speaker 2Yeah. So, so I grew up with a Muslim mother, sorry, a Muslim father and a Hindu mother. I'm a little boy. And I asked my father, what does it mean to be a Muslim? He's like, I don't know. Go ask your grandmother.
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Speaker 2Doesn't practice it, right? So I don't know much about it. Hinduism, I think it's kind of cool. My mom's moderate. We wear these, you know, I'm a kid. I'm like, yeah, we wear these costumes. We throw rice, we burn stuff, you know, we eat food. But I don't think anything. I'm a kid. I'm just doing as I'm told. But then there's a turning point. I'm 25 years old and my father passes away. And I know now. That people were doing the best they could in the moment. But when I was consoled at the funeral, people came up to me. I'm 25. So I might be physically a man, but I have the emotional maturity level of a kid, like a 16 year old or a 17 year old, because I'm drinking and drugging at this point. I'm stunted emotionally. And people say to me, God takes the good ones. And I'm pissed. I'm fucking pissed, man. I'm pissed. I'm like, you take away my dad. He's 49 years old. That's what God does. My mom's 44. I have two brothers. God takes, that's what, I don't want nothing. I don't want nothing to do with you. And I do this motion because I have this perception that God is the man in the sky with the stick and the beard. And for the rest of my life, at the age of 25, until I recover, until I get into recovery 21 years later, I carry this deep, deep, deep seated resentment to anything God, spiritual, religious. I just lump it all into the same. Right. And, and, and I ignore the fact that people who seem to be living by spiritual principles or by going to church or by practicing religion seem to be living relatively productive and happy lives. But I judged them based on the 1% that I read about in the news that are doing bad things or the wars that are going on all over the world, people killing each other in the name of their religion. And I say, that's what God is. And then I find myself in recovery. And it's been suggested to me that I can't do this without some spiritual guidance, with some spiritual help. But I don't know what that means because I put it all in the same thing. And the moment I hear spirituality, I'm thinking back to when people told me God takes the good ones 21 years ago. So I'm, now I'm at another crossroads. I want to get well. It's been suggested that I seek spiritual help or accept spiritual help. But I'm blocked, man. I'm blocked. I cannot let go of what happened. But then that same gentleman who said to me, Hey, Hey, Steven, did you try to quit? And I said, yes. He says, I believe you kid. Cause I did too. He says to me, he goes, what's he said? He said, you're in treatment, man. You know, you've tried to quit. I said, yeah. He goes, well, just keep an open mind. Why don't you try something? Right. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Remember I talked about ego. I'll show you. I'll keep an open mind. You want me to keep an open mind? I'll show you. I'll have the big, best open mind ever. My mind, right. I don't compare myself to everybody in the room again. You think that you have an open mind? I'll show you how open my mind is. But a bit. So, so when I asked you what God was, right, you talked about, um, symbols, I guess, kind of right. Right. Or, and I was the same way. I could, I couldn't remove my old ideas, these prejudices that I had. And I didn't even know I had them. So he says to me, he says, if there was a God, Steve, I said, there isn't. He says, okay, but hold on. You said you're going to keep an open mind. I said, yeah. He goes, but if there was an open God, uh, what would he be? And I said, what do you mean? He said, like, like what, you know, what would be some of his principles? I remember talking about, uh, loving, compassionate, considerate, tolerant, um, forgiving. And he wrote it down on a piece of paper and he goes, there's your start. And something shifted because I no longer saw God as, a thing. I saw spirituality as principles. So now my mind's not just open because I'll show you, my mind's open now because I'm actually feeling like, okay, this is starting to actually make sense. It's stop. I had to stop thinking about the man in the sky. I start thinking about how do I want to be? Do I want to be kind? Do I want to be loving? Do I want to be forgiving? Do I want to be compassionate? So, so, so to me, there was a transition from, from God as a symbol to spirituality as principles that I practice. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. And a concept and a guiding force. An idea. An idea. Much more, less rigid too, right? Like less boxy, less, I didn't put it, I stopped putting it in a box. I could. It could be this, it could be that, it could be that. And then when someone else shares, oh, my idea of spirituality, it could be that, right? Like I'm.
Speaker 2And when you said less rigid, it reminded me of, of non-punishing, non-judgmental and forgiving. Right. Because I was taught similarly, remember I asked you about consequences? Well, if I don't do it, I'm going to get punished. If I don't do it, I'm not going to get accepted. If I don't do it, I'm going to get kicked out of the cult of religion, which is my perception, right? But this new way of thinking is like, just do the best you can. You're going to make mistakes and that's okay.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you're going to be forgiven. And I have to remind myself of that every day, right? I think for me, as, as of late, especially, I've had so many moments. I talk to my, my God, my power, my higher power. I can't explain to you what it is, right? And that's, my life is better when I can't really explain to you what it is, because that means that it could be anything. And it's, again, it's an idea. It's, it's growing, it's changing, it's morphing, it's evolving in my life. And I think that's, that's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what I'm my, my way. But for me, it's like, and I talk about this a lot, but my perception is constantly needing to be adjusted, shifted. And when I talked about being in the have to do life, have to do this, have to, have to, have to, have to, have to, right? Poor me, to get to a place of gratitude. I'm constantly, man, like this last week, especially I've been in such a place of turning it over and accepting. Doing the next right thing as simple as brushing my teeth, leaving the results up, making my bed, leaving the results up, checking for applying for new jobs, leaving the results, calling the CR, like the CRA stuff that I'm dealing with out of my control, just relinquishing and stop stopping this story spinning about it. Oh, I'm, I'm broke. So I'm going to lose my house. Oh, I'm attaching all of these catastrophes and outcomes. And stories. And it's going to be this way because just stop. To me, that's what it's been recently.
Speaker 2Was it, but, but so when we talked, when I, when you asked me where, where, where the spirituality entered and I asked you what, what happened with you? I want to ask you again. So, so, you know, you've had your ups and downs. You've talked about that. I often hear people who, who, who, who relapse or stop lip as they call it um they say they lost their connection amongst other things can you look back in retrospect and see that because you because you're talking about you're talking about in in in a manner which i can identify with right relinquishing relinquishing relinquishing but then you go through that you know you went back out yeah yeah and i'm happy
Speaker 1you asked that because that is exactly how i identify it my primary purpose today right now as i talk to you i don't know about tomorrow yesterday was the same but today is to help others and stay sober and carry the message help others there was a point in the seventh year and you talked about this before you came into recovery i did this exact same thing i'm not connecting i'm not i'm disturbed okay it always starts with i'm disturbed and we talked about this before you walked in here i love the word disturbed because it encompasses how i feel so often it always starts with i am disturbed because things aren't going my way but i'm attaching ego whatever the circumstance happens disturbed that person doesn't say something i don't like disturbed and it's like the state of oh my god overthinking things and i'm scanning the environment i'm on high alert starts with disturbed and instead of going to my recovery community going to my higher power my prayer my meditation my practice that i've been doing for seven years i start to look for outside things you you nailed it on the head process of self-determination first i go to the body i'm fixing my body i'm fat body dysmorphia i remember you spoke about working out i need to do steroids because i don't feel good about my body that doesn't work okay next adhd hold on let me just do it but did but did it work for for a brief moment yeah okay yeah there's moments of but then you know this it's never enough yeah yeah it's like getting high it's like getting high right my biceps not big enough yeah my chest my pec isn't my my abs aren't showing there's always something wrong there's never enough so it's it's a it's a moot point to chase these things and so that's why i go to the next thing because steroids didn't work i start hearing about adhd medication and this is like a high level thing i'm sure there's like micro processes happening throughout the day where i'm looking for food that's not working i'm running a lot that's not working uh the job i get a promotion at work that's not working the next thing it eventually progresses and this is over a year period into hmm i've never solved this adhd problem that i suddenly think i have and how long has this been
Speaker 2going on now if you had like the this is over a year period yeah so and what's going on with
Speaker 1your connection i'm not i'm not praying i'm not meditating i'm still going to recovery meetings i'm still doing the but i talk about this a lot i'm performing taking up a seat i'm taking a seat i'm not actually practicing i'm not i'm not a member you're a pretender pretender yeah and i'm so i'm pretending to do recovery because i'm not a member i'm not a member i'm not a member because i know i need to and i'm going through the motions and i'm showing up to places and people are asking me how i'm doing i'm not doing well because i'm i'm already having secrets right this is another huge part of it is secrets it's it comes back to secrets i'm not and i'm not talking about when i say secrets i think sometimes it gets confused with oh i need to tell everybody about my past like i was you know those you know those deep real dark secrets yes yeah yeah and this didn't happen to me but i was abused or whatever what that's all i'm talking about
Speaker 2the things you're ashamed of you're humiliated about your better but i think i hear what you're saying you're saying whatever whatever's weighing you down you need to get it out of you those
Speaker 1current plans and ideas for me oh i'm gonna fix this by doing this yeah those plans and ideas those are the secrets that kill you that take you out and so or the financial the financial stress
Speaker 2that you and i both talk we're both we're both dealing with stuff right point if i don't talk about it right yeah it's gonna take me down that's no dirty secret that's just what i'm dealing exactly
Speaker 1it's important it's getting current and that's why on this podcast i love to get current and talk about that because it's so important right i can tell you six ways till sunday how i've recovered from alcoholism and addiction and my life was so met and now i'm great what the fuck are you what does your week look like dude and that's why when i come into recovery space i want to hear about that shit tell me about how you're struggling if you sit here not you but if if someone sits in front of me and tells me they don't have unmanageability or they gloss over it you're a fucking liar i don't care what you're lying to everybody in this room i don't care what you're including people who are on the top of their recovery game has unmanageability look removing
Speaker 2the obsession that's great that's clearly an objective but how you live in exactly how you
Speaker 1live i want to hear about how you you flipped off the old lady on the street and then like we're so embarrassed that you did that right or yelled at the uber bike this is what i do uber bikes bombing down the fucking sidewalk almost taking people out i scream at him and
Speaker 2i haven't done that recently hey the guy who's tailgating me on the drive here coming down the 400 and i see him so i'm not tapping my brakes i'm just letting off the gas i'm letting off the gas but your motive right oh my motives are like oh you want i'm gonna make you eat my bumper motherfucker that's the shit i want to hear and people need to hear that too because it's like oh
Speaker 1i do that too you know we're not perfect yeah right so i can spin this recovery story anyways just to quickly finish my relapse point uh eventually i started seeing adhd medication and i'm like i have adhd that's it and i'm not self-diagnosed no yeah i mean i was i was diagnosed i lied like through my teeth to get the diagnosis i manipulated the doctor i shopped around and i don't think i have adhd but i'm not a doctor right i've been my point is i've been fine in the seven years not fine i've been thriving in the seven years i lost my connection with a higher power with a power grid and myself with helping others the principles of our you know of our um of our life that we work they start to fall off one by one i'm i'm not as honest i'm not as humble i'm and then i lose my connection and i'm not telling people and then i i i manufacture this problem that's what it is i'm manufacturing problem i i can't focus at work meanwhile i've been promoted i'm doing great i'm not connected i'm not filling that god-sized hole and then i look to eventually adhd medication oh this is fun you know what was remember what was really fun anthony chop it up and snort it there you go yeah cocaine and now benzos and i'm getting into all these see and i hear i hear this
Speaker 2story countless times the slow drip the slow drip my curiosity uh it might be insidious and and it's funny because when i was new i used to when i'd hear people relapse i'm like i want to know what happened i want to give me and and i'm telling you i still want to know that's that tells me that tells me you're working a good program because because because by the time you're chopping up the benzos shit had long gone sideways absolutely and where does it and and and you hear the stories it i look back and i and i emotionally relapsed long before i picked up a drink months i emotionally relapsed long before i i bought a bag but in the but in it you don't see it but as you're telling a story we can clearly see it
Speaker 1hindsight 2020 yeah you said it perfectly life has lived forward and understood in reverse and
Speaker 2and maybe what i'm searching for in this insidious questions that i ask my friends who relapse or others is is there is there a moment but most of the time the answers i get is there's not a specific it's it's it's so gradual baffling yeah yeah patient yeah it's chipping away chipping away chipping away chipping away it's waiting for that weak spot it's it's it's it's it's like uh those those ticks you get right they start to embed themselves and they dig and they dig and they dig and eventually they're
Speaker 1in you yeah yeah and now you have a whole ecosystem of them yeah right you got no idea what moments i can remember though it's a great question because it's important to know right how do i catch myself before i relapse that tells me you're working a good program when people ask me i'm happy they ask me because i have a new experience to share yeah i'm i hate that i went through that let's turn this into a positive yeah so i so that you can avoid the pain that i went through yeah because if you and i go back out here today it'll get worse there is i would bet every dollar i have in my bank account including all my you know assets anything that whoever if you go back out and you were like us it will get worse so so did you have a sponsor at the time uh yes yeah but i wasn't talking to him honestly i wasn't sharing honestly with other people yeah i was again i was showing up and performing the reason the reason
Speaker 2there's a reason why i asked you that part part part of what part of what keeps me keeps me safe and protected is having a sponsor a huge part of it a massive part of it and it's not just having a sponsor it's having the relationship with the sponsor that i have right all right it's even after six years we're still talking three four times a week we're still seeing each other once or twice a week and he is not afraid to call me on my yeah um and he does because like you like we just talked about happens everything's not rainbows and butterflies uh i'm no saint and he and he will say he told me he told me a couple months so you're getting controlling again your ego's coming back you're getting clicky hanging out with these people and you're ignoring the newcomer like he calls me on man i and you know so when i ask you what what led you to go back out right um my belief and you know i work with some new guys is that if you've got people around you if you've got a good fellowship um and people in recovery close to you they will call you on your if you surround yourself with the right people and you're And you're humble enough to allow them to tell you shit. Accept the criticism. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1To know that it's coming from a place of love. Because they have a subjective angle on your life. They're not emotionally attached. Exactly. I need that, right? And it's one thing to have that person in your life to see it. They got to tell you too. And then it's like a three-part process. You got to be around them. They have to see it. They have to tell you. And then you have to do something about it, right?
Speaker 2There's a wise man who once said that after 30 years, he still needs a sponsor. He can tell you what's wrong with you. But when it comes to him, he's got this thin veil. And he cannot see it. He cannot see it in himself. So he needs somebody else to tell him. Great words of wisdom from the people who came before us.
Speaker 1God works through other people. Yeah, yeah. That's my higher power right there is when people point me out on things. Oh, yeah, I need to do that.
Speaker 2Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Like when my sponsor tells me stuff, there's a moment where I'm like, oh, that fucker. Fuck, that hurts. But then it's almost immediately overcome with, oh, fuck, he loves me. And he's just telling me what's good for me. Your ego is just taking a knife.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's close with this. I guess, what are some current unmanageabilities in your life today? And how are you working on them?
Speaker 2We talked about, you know, the one thing that's big in my life right now is financial insecurity. Like this one's gnawing at me, man. This one's keeping me up at night. Same. This one's got my head. This one's got me playing out delusional fantasies in my head when I lay my head down at night. When I wake up in the morning, it's always back there. On the drive down here, it's here. I come into recovery and I think, you know what, I've got this debt and within two years I can get rid of it if I do the right thing. And here I am six and a half years later and the debt's still, it's still eating me up, man. It's still eating me up. So how am I dealing? I'm dealing with it. Not well, Anthony. Not well. Not well. I have, if I do the next right thing, everything's going to be okay. Take a leap of faith and have faith. Like that's, that's ingrained in me today and yesterday and the days before. Right? Spiritual faith. Everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? But man, it's tough. It's tough. What am I doing about it? Looking for a new job. Looking about going back to school. Trying new things at the job that I'm in now because it's, it's commission based and it's, and it's, it's not, it's not, it's not meeting my needs or my wants. It's, it's, it's, it's my biggest challenge right now. I'm struggling to deal with it. I'm struggling to deal with it. I'm putting my head in the sand sometimes and distracting myself with other things. Right? Don't let me focus on this and not worry about this. It's tough, man. It's tough. That's, that's, that's, that's the most current one. Um, no, you talked about the bot, the body stuff. I, I, I'm 52. I put on, I put on 30 pounds after I got sober and I was always in good shape. And I, and I got, I got, I got body image issues that I deal with. I remember when you spoke recently and you said it and I'm like, fuck man, he said what I'm going through, but you gave me permission to, to say that right here, right now. Um, I struggle with that. I struggle with that. And the way I cope with that is much easier than I'm coping with the financial security. Cause you know what? Let me just continue to eat the berries and the bananas and do a little exercise and have some protein and stop eating as many potato chips and chocolate. Just, I wouldn't just, it's diet. Um, and acceptance. I'm 52, man. Gravity is going to happen. Put on a couple of pounds. It's okay. Get a little chin. It's coming.
Speaker 1Yeah. You nailed it though. I mean, we're so alike in that. And it's, it's, I'm happy that you share about it and it's great to hear about it because yeah, it's every day. It's like, what can I do about this right now in this moment? Am I going to die if I don't lose weight right now? Am I going to die if I don't pay off my debt right now?
Speaker 2And let me hit you with this one. Okay. So you talked about self-diagnosing ADHD so you can get medication and the next thing you know, you're chopping it up and then you meet you. You and I meet for the first time because you've relapsed your back in treatment as a client and I'm an alumni member. I just told you the story about sitting in a hotel room, wake, come to at 11 AM after being in it for five months, smoking crack cocaine, thinking I'm never going to get out of here. And here I am worried about nothing is ever, ever going to be as bad as it was on December the 14th of 2019.
Speaker 1Oh, that's such a great way to end it. Remember when? It's so true. It's so fucking true. I just got goosebumps thinking about that. You've been through the worst part of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
Speaker 2Nothing's ever going to be that bad, right? So, so I might be lazy. I might be sloth. That's what, that's, those are my problems too, right? Laziness, sloth, but everything's, Anthony, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. I love it, man. Thanks, dude.
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