Twice Married, To Each Other

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only Pumpkin Spice Latte and the deliciously smooth Iced Pecan Crunch Latte have arrived and are ready to sip. All season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new Iced Banana Bread Latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Honestly, I don't really know where it began. It's just such a torrid love story. Just the back and forth. They've been married to each other, not once, but twice. We ended up married in 2008 and then divorced in 2010. And we ended up finding ourselves back together again just eight months later. And we got remarried. And we've been really trying to nail down this relationship thing since then. And it's just been difficult. It's an emotional struggle, and I just wish it wasn't. It's been so hard and always feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, walking on glass. She came into the marriage with her two children, and they had two more together, four in total. So it's a lot of go, go, go. Lately, I've been trying desperately to get my husband to just do more in the relationship. I want arguments to come with joint solutions, right? Not only solved by the unilateral actions of one person. Most recently, I asked him to close his closet door because the cat had gotten in there. And he told me nobody likes me. Any time I suggest that he could take responsibility for something that he's done, it's turned around and it's made about me or my inadequacies. I don't want to ask him to do it. I don't want to ask him to do anything because I'm afraid of what he'll say. You know, I can be reactionary and defensive, but I don't want my kids thinking that the way to deal with conflict is my wife ignoring me for two plus weeks on a time because she got angry at me and couldn't handle it. And I don't know how to make it better. I'm just terrified. And I can't really shake that feeling. It seems so silly because it seems. It's just words, right? Like, it's just words that you say. They hurt. And I want to be able to communicate to him in a way that doesn't pique his fears either. They've asked for a session because they have not stopped fighting. They fight over chores. They fight over domestic wars. Who can tell who what to do? And that's what they think they're coming for. Tell me a little bit, if your relationship told its story, what story would it tell me? Where does it start? Well, we were, I was 22. It was 2006. We met on Myspace. Actually, it was, I guess, the millennials tender. I had just. I had just separated and was in the middle of a divorce with my ex, who was the father of my first two children, my older two. And he reached out to me as his pseudonym, Jack Rockstar. Jack Rockstar contacted me. Yes, I did. I was using it to meet girls because I had enlisted. And I was looking for some fun before I left. Nothing serious. Before you left? Before I left. To join the military. Nothing serious. Nothing keeping me down. Just a couple of flings and have fun and move on. Okay. So two people meet online with the stated purpose of just having light fun. Yes. Yes. And some good recreational sex. Yes. Yes. And then? I don't know what happened. We went out on our first date. I guess I. Somehow. Somehow made an impression. She was intriguing, right? I came from a very, I'd say a very cloistered, very clannish kind of family. Oldest of three boys and sort of the black sheep of my family. I'm the one who left. I'm the one who went away, carved my own path. Can I just ask you something? Yes. What was it that made you. Do you want to leave the clan? I wanted to be my own person, right? I didn't really feel like I could be my own person in my clan because it's very patriarchal. And so my dad is the head of the clan, right? And your dad has the authority? And my dad is the authority. And he makes other people do according to his will? Yes. And that's when you honed your chops? I would say that I would model after that, yeah. And I just didn't. I wanted to do my own thing. I wanted to live my own life. Even that decision was co-opted by my parents because, you know, my dad gave me a call and he was like, man, I'm really. A couple of years later, I'm really impressed that you went off and did your own thing. You know, when I was young, I went off and I did my own thing. You're just like me. And how does that land on you? It's like being choked. Right? And. And it strangles me. And when it strangles me, I want to. I just. I want to get out. I can't get from under his clutches. Yeah, I just. It's. It's. So, it's funny because one of the first things. One of the first things that we both recognized was how much my family did not approve of her at all. When someone is talking about how they needed to run away from their family because they were choking, because it felt so suffocating or oppressive, and they could proceed. They could proceed with a sentence that starts with, It's funny. What follows is really funny. What follows is an illustration of his rebelliousness. Here I was, falling for a woman that was nothing my family would approve. Now, I could begin to think that I'm living my own life. And the issue was race, age, culture, religion. The wrong side of the tracks. It was the wrong side of the tracks, was what my dad said. Yes. I think it was always about the class. Like, his dad ran his own company and things like that. And my mom was. She was a drug addict and an alcoholic. And, you know, we grew up with just my mom and my two brothers. And we grew up in poverty. If it wasn't for my mom's. Social Security and disability and her widower's benefits and then death benefits from my dad passing, we wouldn't have had any income. She couldn't hold a job. So it was homeless shelters sometimes. It was moving from place to place because we were evicted. So we were moving, like, every year. We were in a different place, different schools. His father did not approve. He never really approved of that. Even now, I feel like they've. They've just convinced themselves that I'm not the same person that he met. That I'm someone else. He has civilized you. He has civilized me, yes. At this moment, I'm going back and forth. I'm highlighting the hidden commonality and the specificity of each. So, back to his father now. You know, I listen to you. And I'm really touched, you know. It's like. I see you. You organize by your defiance. Your defiance drives you. Nobody will tell me what to do. Started with your father, who I'm imagining, in order to get his will across, was ready to use all kinds of means. You know, it's interesting. Emotional manipulation came from my mom. And my mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative. My father just knows how, I think, to—I think they make a very good pair. I think they work very well together. I think that is a good way of putting it, I suppose. How did he get his will across to his three sons? How did he establish his authority? I mean, a lot of lectures. There was—and it's odd. And they start with? Son? Yeah, right? What are you going to do with your life, right? Where are you going? You're not thinking things through. That's not the way that I raised you. You have a responsibility. You have a duty. You're the oldest. And therefore, you have to set the example for your brothers. You have to be that paragon of what I want you to be, right? And so it was a lot of sitting around. So while he's talking to you, and you're feeling that pressure on yourself, on your chest, and on your throat, because he's ramping it down your throat. He's not just using words. He's not just lecturing. He's doing some—there are more things that you experience in that moment. When somebody says, "What are you doing with your life?" You are embarrassing us. Yes. That's a big piece. You're embarrassing us, right? Right. You're not living up to your—to my expectation. You're not making me proud. Right. I feel content for you. And I humiliate you. And I instill doubt in you that you'll ever do anything. And part of you says, "I'll show you." Yeah, absolutely. And part of you wonders, "Will I succeed at it?" But you can't even allow yourself to have that doubt, because the drive of the defiance burns you. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. As he repeats the words of his father, with his hand on his chest and his throat, it's as if his body is remembering, re-experiencing, in that very moment, the choking sensation, the belittlement, the humiliation that he used to feel. And so when I add a few of those sentences, he just says, "Yes, that too, that too." And his lips are quivering, and the tears appear in his eyes. They don't stream yet, because behind the rage, there often are tears. Have you ever thought of how similar the two of you are? I have. Both of you needed to leave in order to have a chance. At creating your own story, your own life. So you leave your drug-addicted mother. You leave the chaos. You leave probably children who needed to attend to everything. Are you the youngest or the oldest? You're the oldest, too. You must be the oldest. I am. You are the oldest, right. So both of you are the oldest. And in some version, you raised your younger siblings, because they looked at you. And you probably raised them more concretely. If she wasn't getting up, you had to get up. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And the first thing that jumps at me is that the two of you had to run away or leave. But leave not just in the physical way. Leave so that you could begin to create your own story. And then he puts you down. When you fail, it's your fault. When you succeed, it's because of him. You own nothing. And somehow I think that that's part of why the two of you fight. Okay. It's all right there. When you fight with her, you fight with that defiant drive with which you fought him. And you confuse the people. But you have so honed your own truth. You have so honed your own protective mechanism. And here you meet her. And when you say they don't like her and so that reinforces your defiance even more. But when you say I want you and she actually welcomes it, that is like irresistible. Irresistible. Psychologically irresistible. I'm not talking just sexually. But if she wants you sexually. That too then is kind of the antidote to the shame. Because that will establish that masculinity which she was like siphoning out of you. And then I'm imagining that she was very encouraging for the things that you wanted to do. Yeah. I mean. Right. I think for the first time in my life, I was able to talk. Things that I was interested in. That's right. And that I wanted to do. That's right. So when she encourages you in the things you want to pursue. You can welcome it. Because she's able to tell you go do this. And you know that it's for you. And not for her. But when she asks you, come help me with home. You can't hear that. And all you hear is that it's for her. And then the button is immediately pressed. And you can't hear that. you can't hear that and all you hear is that it's for her and then the button is immediately pushed and off you go nobody's going to tell me what to do that's what I was thinking of when I asked him to pick up his shoes okay okay? that's a lot on him I don't know it's a thought and we're going to explore it together it's not like I know but I see the way that your whole body changes if she says move your shoes or whatever I'm just picking up the one she just mentioned and then both of you then you will tell me what you do what happens well I was just thinking that that's a really fascinating perspective because there are times where I am all for it I'm saying go go do what you need to do to excel in your field to excel in your passion what you're interested in and your profession and he doesn't receive it that way because it's not that easy it feels like you struggle to really hear that you have that freedom just the fact that she says go do your thing how does that land on you? oh no no no what? no don't go do your thing really? yeah that's what I'm met with so he says I really want to do this this would be he tells me yeah yeah I get it I get it as the conversation unfolds they discuss a different situation in this one he wants to make a change professionally and she's all for it she's right behind him and she supports him and he's at a loss he knows better how to react to someone who says no than how to react to someone who says yes when somebody says no the defiance fills him up with a false sense of confidence but when someone says yes it makes room for his insecurities his uncertainties his doubts his questions to actually come out and that brings a whole other wrinkle to their relationship I want him to know that I hear him as well and that I see him and that whenever I say those things where I say I want you to go do the thing or have the thing that you want it's not glib but that I had pure confidence in the both of us to navigate that together if that's what he wanted to do whatever it is that terrifies me that terrifies me oh my god confidence is tiring right I'm constantly plagued by self-doubt oh my god so when you say I had the supreme confidence wow like what what if I'm wrong and I mean like don't get me wrong I know that you you are very very capable of telling me that I'm wrong right but what if I am what if I'm making the wrong decision we've navigated so much you don't need to convince him right now because he's actually honest in a way that he's not often because that self-doubt is what crept under his skin all the while he was being defiant and defiance is a certain type of confidence but it's not really confidence because confidence as my very dear friend Terry real has taught me is the ability to see yourself as a flawed individual and then still hold yourself in high regard I hear you when she says go for it you say I'm scared because when your dad would say you can't do this you had to say yes I can and you had to stifle all the fears when she says go for it it actually allows the full person to respond the one that wants and the one that's afraid when you say go for it and he starts to reason or to basically express his reservations his concerns his doubts etc it's actually a very good thing because I'm learning could never express any of these things since he had to be ultimately sure because that's the only way he could stand up to his dad right His defiance has given him a false sense of confidence, and his self-doubt is his hidden truth. 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Your favourite fall flavours are back at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favourite, like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favourite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Earlier on, he mentioned, that while his relationship with his dad was very challenging, the emotional manipulation came from his mom. You know, it's interesting, my mom of the two is the more emotionally manipulative. So, I think it's time to inquire about his relationship with her as well. Okay, um, my mom falls in line with my dad, and they're very much on the same page. He's really good at getting things done. He's really good at guilting. The disapproving, like that all came from her. The emotional guilt came from her. A lot of crying, like I was letting my mom, I was hurting my mom. I wasn't hurting my dad. I was letting my dad down, but I was hurting my mom. I would always ask him like what it was like growing up, like, you know, you know, what is she like? And he was like, I don't, I don't know. I just remember her crying a lot in my teenage years. I, from what I remember him telling me is dad was the one that was saying, look, you made your mother cry, right? Like, why are you making your mother cry like this? So, you tell me, you both have a lot of insight about the original story. And so, this, for both of you, let's you know very much what are your triggers. The fact that you disagree on all kinds of things is utterly irrelevant. If you experience it as I'm a disappointment, I'm inadequate, I'm being told what to do. I'm being told I'm not good enough. I'm being scrutinized. I'm being monitored. That's what you're going to be fighting about. If you don't respond and he doesn't collaborate with you and you feel like you're talking to the wind, then the trigger is going to be, I'm always alone. I've always been alone. Nobody's there for me. It's all on me. How am I going to do this? I can't handle this anymore. I don't know how to stress it. It's really spot on. OK, so, so what do we do? The first and foremost thing you're going to do is not to talk about what you think is the issue. As in the tasks or the chores or the, you know. Do yourselves a favor and really repeat what you just heard and actually repeat it in your own words first before we go into what do we do. Because this is what you're triggered by and this is what you're fighting. And you're fighting it with the same passion that you were at home. So put in your words, what's the voice that fights? The, the voice, the voice that fights. So in, in my own head, you know, what I'm fighting against is shame, inadequacy, being told what I have to do and, and not having my own say. It's a lack of autonomy. It's taking away, right? It's, it's taking a part of me away and demanding that I, that I do something else. If, if I could hear what he, what he's saying. If, if I could hear what he's saying. goes in the ears. How dare you? How dare you? How dare you tell me what to do? Like you don't, that's not your place. And what do you hear her say? Give me a line. Most recently, I, he was blaming our five-year-old for leaving the bedroom door open and the cat got in and used his closet as a litter box. And I said, well, but you could keep your closet door closed and that might be helpful. Okay. That's enough. You don't get, no, that doesn't make any sense. No, what did I want to hear? Why are you putting this on me? Yeah. This has nothing to do with me. Like, like that's not helpful. It's not helpful. And now, now, now I'm angry about it because you're trying to blame me for something that like, why are you getting in my face about it? That's what I'm hearing. Right. Right. You know, you, you think you're talking about the litter box and a cat. Yes. There's no cat. In his story. There's no cat. There's no cat in his story. But of course he doesn't say that in the moment. In the moment he says something about the cat. Oh, that was when he said nobody likes you. Ah, okay. He went straight. He went straight. So he went into the part of him that felt belittled and ashamed and his protection mode is then to say, you're not lovable. Yeah. And what do you do? And he says that you have a comeback. No, I just didn't. I told him that was very mean and hurtful. And then I didn't talk to him for two weeks. Oh, well, that's a comeback. by the way it was a really shitty thing of me to say and i'm really sorry you've told me a few times i know thank you i hold you in way higher regard than that and i love you so it's completely untrue and bullshit and i i was angry and i'm sorry i forgive you okay thank you and i i know i know a lot of the times like it sounds like we're just we're arguing about mundane things but those mundane things add up for both of us uh and if it's a trigger it when we're constantly triggering each other that's that's every day another thing and another thing and it's death by a thousand cuts now it's every day the same thing every day the same thing right in a but it may be in a different trapping but that's why you're not going to stay on the things that you argue about but you're going to help each other right by recognizing what was just just was a little step on a wound yeah yeah they are convinced that they fight about a lot of different things but what becomes very clear is that in fact they mostly fight about the same thing over and over again he goes to his childhood and experiences again the sense of inadequacy and incompetence and disappointment and she experiences the aloneness and the burdens that were put upon her as a child most of their arguments are about that it's not about the cat it's about their vulnerabilities and their deep-seated wounds and fears and this translation from the supposed issues to the feelings and the emotions that live inside of us is a major transition for many couples it becomes the place from which empathy compassion and understanding for themselves and for each other can rise and this translation from the supposed issues to the feelings and the emotions that live inside of us is a major transition for many couples it becomes the place from which empathy compassion and understanding for themselves and for each other can rise Yeah, that makes sense. So when the two of you fight, your bodies may be in this room, but your memories, your nervous systems are hijacked. You fight about our core vulnerabilities. You know, when you argue, do one now. Pick one, one of your arguments. And the church heart. Oh, okay. We're role-playing one of our arguments now. Yes, yes, yes. Awesome, cool. I just want to. It's hard to get in, but you will see once the triggers go, she just. One of you just. Yes, it's a fantastic flicker. So in doing the chore chart, we wanted to have the teenagers. I know what we wanted to do. Okay, so we wanted to create a chore chart so there was routine and structure and discipline so the teens could earn their allowance and learn some discipline on their own. Right, and then you went and did it by yourself. Well, the conversation was I had created the chore chart and there was a cycle and everyone had their two chores every night and that you were not fulfilling yours routinely. Right, but the challenge for me here, the problem that I have is that you made the chore chart up. You buy yourself. You put it behind this, I'm not going to say a paywall, but you're the only one who could edit it. You were the one who decided the criteria that went into it. I didn't have any input into the process whatsoever. And so I tried and I'm very bad at it and I got angry about it and then I just stopped. But I didn't stop on purpose. I just, I'm exhausted by the end of the day. And then, and then, then you took me off the chore chart without talking to me about it first. You just went and did it. And then when I came to you and said, hey, maybe a compromise, maybe I can get some buy-in back with the kids and build some trust with them. Then you went and accused me of trying to like circumvent the entire thing because I just couldn't hold to doing chores every day when I came with a compromise for you. So I didn't feel, I don't feel like I've got any input at all, none. You just made it all up and you're running the show by yourself because that's what you want to do. Okay. So that was a lot. Yeah. Because I'd, I'd sent you the chart. You actually had the editable version beforehand before I published it to Google Docs and shared it with the teens. You had it. Okay. You're about to go into the item and the chart and why you did what you did. Yes. You could do that. But I can spare you that and let you know up front, it's predictably going to land in the bad place. I can see that. So everything he just said was about how he hated not being able to fulfill the expectation. And he didn't particularly like the fact that the expectations were mandated to him without being involved. And because he felt I'm at the twirl of your finger and you're going to do with me whatever you want. He already told you, this is his trigger. I'm made to feel dumb, inadequate, and now on top of it, I'm embarrassed in front of my kids. So there are two levels. There's a lot of levels, but. The first one is there is something that if people argue while they actually touch each other, the arguments completely change. Okay. And since touch is extremely potent and in a good way for both of you, you have got to use it. That same speech you just did or the one you're about to do, when you actually put your hand on the knee or the shoulder or the lap, something different will happen. I like this plan. I do not. But I understand. Like, okay. Okay. You're good. I feel like I said my piece and we should. Should we allow. We should allow you to. Okay. All right. Okay. So what I'm hearing you say is that you don't want to feel embarrassed or inadequate to the teens. I think it's more than that, right? Like, I want to. I want us to make these decisions, not even make them together, but figure out a way to make them together. Okay. Right. Did you notice a difference in your body? Do you notice a difference? I mean, I don't feel like. Right. Right. Right? Like, tight. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I'm still sort of talking about what I want to talk about. Yes, of course. Of course. The argument stays an argument. You're allowed to argue and you're allowed to disagree and you're allowed to fight and you're allowed to be angry. Change comes with anger. But what you both do is different. Yeah. You see, she makes decisions alone because that's what she learned. Not because she's intentionally trying to put you on the side. But when there's a big issue, the first person she turns to is herself. Yes. And you, who admire how well she can make all of these decisions alone. Sure. As long as it doesn't make you feel excluded and diminished by it. Your experience is no longer, oh, I admire this woman who can handle all these complicated things. It suddenly becomes, this woman is putting me down. She doesn't think I'm competent. Her self-reliance is my incompetence. That's interesting. Hmm. and to want to go on the record as saying that i admire your self-reliance and autonomy yes but on occasion it makes me feel like an idiot yes it does of course and at those moments i'm hurt but it doesn't have anything to do with you at the same time right it doesn't have anything to do with you but you're hurt of course but i'm hurt but it hurts it hurts because who wouldn't want to be able to be on the same team as someone like you right because i admire you i want to be on the team with you yeah absolutely i'm i'm lucky and i know that and i want you to know that and i i want you to i i don't just be like i want you to know that that i'm lucky but i want you to know that you know what i mean like yeah yeah sure and i don't know i just i want you to feel lucky that you're online very lucky i part of being on the same team isn't just hey we're gonna do awesome things together but to me it's also hey can you be understanding when i don't know what's going on or i need help or i don't get it the first time it that's part of it i think and when you think he is thin-skinned or you need to work on eggshells because you can't tell him anything you have to remember everything he just said yeah i do there's another piece of research i find very interesting and it may be good for you too because indeed you know your bodies have another language that you can use to and is reserved for good times that your words don't always match and that is it's lay down on the floor both of you like lay down just lay down yeah okay okay lay down and lay down next to her oh god now okay try to have a fight now i i don't think i can this is weird right yeah okay see if you can um the chore chart what about it can we work on it maybe no i said a fight we're i'm trying you see it's very hard it's completely disarming it's right and the bodies won't let you a fight i think body cannot lie flat a body that is in an argument you have a pace and walk and cannot be lying flat so when you go and you escalate lay down and if you can lay down even while your kids are in the room because you'll start to laugh and you'll tell them that shrink we met gave us this bizarre piece of research you know it will count everybody it will diffuse it you cannot continue the screaming match when you're lying i mean that's that's fair and most of the time you really need to know your screaming match will not lead you to anything and i feel like i'm going to be lying you just say let's fight lying down let's continue our fight lying down see what happens i think even saying it is like in a way it it disarms the conversation even just thinking about the concept of laying down i can't imagine that would it wouldn't make things worse that's for sure i mean i don't know i'm skeptical i mean what would you do if we were in a fight and i just laid down i'm not thinking about if we're in a fight and you lay down because i'm just going to lay down with you i'm thinking about what happens if we're in a fight and i just lay down i'm not thinking about if we're in a fight what happens when i lay down and you just walk away well i think that's the commitment that i have to make right and that's on me that's not on you okay that's fair say more about this that you would be laying down and that she i i think what i meant is like a natural reaction and when we get into fights and we start escalating i mean she mentioned she didn't talk to me for two weeks this is not like an uncommon occurrence right when we argue there is the the fight and then there is no more fighting it's all silence silence and how do you come back i usually tell him that i'm ready to talk and the voice that that controls the stonewalling says what it depends it depends on the the magnitude of the fight sometimes it's should you leave before he does or you know at some point at some point he's he's going to get tired of this at some point it's it's going to hit a threshold and it's always a little self-deprecating it's rooted in worthiness worthlessness so you know you weren't deserving to begin with why is he still here you know it's going to hit a point it's always going to hit a point that's constantly in the back of my head and that has nothing to do with him i just had a thought okay um that is exactly in the same register as the touch okay see you stonewalled him you are thinking i don't know how to come out of this this is where i've always gone to protect myself i'm in my bunker but he's not gonna last because he's gonna leave so now i'm trapped between staying in my bunker because it's safer and then being afraid that if i stay in my bunker he's gonna go meanwhile he thinks he's being punished and he's being excluded and so each one of you goes to those places and it would be wonderful if when she stonewalls you and she gives you the silent treatment you got a costume and basically came in exactly with that laughter that you have here whoever you like to be okay do you have any fantasies you can play out at that moment you know do you have any of these characters that you would love to be surprised by but you you see the more you are afraid and the more she thinks he's not going to be able to take this anymore and the more she thinks he's going to leave me and the longer her silence it's a crazy thing it's spot on it's exactly right yeah i mean she's in a no-win situation it's a no-win situation at that point like uh my default way of dealing with it is being like okay that's right see you later that's right so now it's two people pretending that they can do without the other and they don't need the other fuck you you if you can because she's too trapped to do anything at first she has no flexibility yeah but if you can remember anything from here and just remember this is the time to go freaking get your costume got it your mask it's very good a mask so like this is just you saying that the act of showing my own vulnerability like just being vulnerable and open act of not being scared about it like i'm not at the mercy of this and how many days am i going to sit in the jail okay you have a key to the gym get out she's trapped you have to know that she would love to be released but that coping style that she perfected over years is the leader at that moment okay what kind of character do you like oh it doesn't matter it's going to be crazy i'm getting a banana costume i'm doing all kinds of stuff great don't tell her anything up front of course so you know it's not going to be a banana costume but it's not going to be a banana costume but you got it i got it it's got to be the most disruptive discontinuous nothing to do with nothing oh i'm good at being disruptive Okay. Have fun, is what I'm saying to you. Yes. Have fun. Yeah. So, costume, lying flat, touching. As you fight. To give you a sense of being able to control the way you fight, not what you fight about. Okay. So, you let me know? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I would love for you to write to me within two weeks. Two weeks. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to be doing some shopping for some sexy costumes. I just hope he doesn't find my box of lingerie. No. The letters they send. We're very encouraging. And one of the things she writes is that something changed about the way I thought about our differences. Having some knowledge about the various psychological constructs that impacted our reactions were never framed in such a way that resonated deeply with me. But this time, it has softened me in a sense that I'm not alone. But this time, it has softened me in a sudden and unexpected way. Seeing the true vulnerability in my husband changed how I hear his reactions and experienced the more difficult parts of his personality. It gives me a new perspective to take into my responses and reactions to him as well. I suppose it was the kick in the teeth that I desperately needed along with some much-needed insight and perspective. His letter was also very important for me to read because he had been very reluctant to join his wife for the session. He was a self-proclaimed skeptic. And his opening sentence of the letter said just as such, As always, even coming out of the session, I remain a skeptic. But one thing we definitely took away was having actual conversations with each other. There have been a couple of times when it looked like things could flare up but they immediately died out and withered. In one of those instances, I initiated the touching that was recommended in the session and it killed an argument immediately. I will say that as a result, our five-year-old who is very emotionally attuned to us has become way more manageable and agreeable recently. On my end, I'm still struggling with the notion that I have to find novel ways to help my wife come out of dark places when we hit rough patches. And to be vulnerable when I feel vulnerable. That is still all a work in progress. I was touched by what I read because it was a lot of takeaways. For a one-time, three-hour session. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs and also the host of the podcast, How's Work? To apply with your partner for a session for the podcast or for show notes on each episode, go to whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com ♪ I don't know ♪