Speaker 1Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Noise, the podcast series from PR Week. I'm Evie Barrett, Deputy News Editor, and today I've got two brilliant guests with me to discuss the latest on GEO and what that means for the comms world. Increasingly, we're seeing brands bring in PR agencies on AI discovery briefs. Nationwide and Dishoom have done so in recent weeks. One of the first announcements of this kind that we had was reported in July when travel brand TUI enlisted PR agency The Remarkables as a strategic advisory partner to help boost its AI visibility. We're going to be delving into the ins and outs of that relationship, so joining me today we have Amy Dowling, Head of Communications at TUI, and Kerry Parkin, Founder and CEO at The Remarkables. Hello both, lovely to be speaking with you today. Hi Evie. Hi Evie, thanks for having us. Hello. So we'll start right at the beginning. Kerry, how did you get into GEO? How did you sort of find out about it, and what is the service that you
Speaker 2offer in a nutshell? Yeah, it started about 18 months ago, Evie, when I had a conversation with our partner Celia from Leopard, and they're based in Australia, and they started to talk to me about AI visibility, and they were one of the first AI visibility agencies in the world, and it really coincided with a CEO asking me, I don't like how I appear in chat GPT, and I want to change it, can I? And from there, really, the GEO offer was born, and we've now been working in it for almost 18 months, and we now have proof, not proposition, and really just seen a massive explosion, I think, just in interest in the offer, interest in this kind of new discipline for PR agencies, and for clients, but also just like this constant shift of what is actually happening in LLMs as well. So for me, it's really interesting but for me, having been in-house for 25 years, it's really interesting because finally we have metrics, and we're able to have conversations at C-suite about our value, which is really
Speaker 1exceptional for me. And Amy, what made you bring in an agency specifically to handle GEO? Obviously, it's something that I'm sure a lot of in-house teams will be aware of, but at what point did you realise that you kind of wanted external support on that,
Speaker 3and why did you go with the Remarkables? Yeah, so it happened fairly organically, actually. Similarly to Kerry, and something I hadn't realised was we were probably somewhat ahead of the curve in terms of thinking about LLMs and GEO. I think even before it was even really being called GEO, to be honest, and just understanding that search behaviours were changing rapidly, and we were really trying to put sort of finger on the pulse in terms of those conversations that were happening in that space. I had shifted some of our resource capability within our internal team and my team had been looking at this and had a digital PR background. So we shifted to some things to make sure she focused on this piece and what we could actually do ourselves in-house. We have a really talented, strong in-house communications function. And I always say to my team to get out there and go to panels and events. And Alice was at a particular event that Kerry was speaking at and came back and said, you know, the one person that felt like saying something that was a bit different to the others was Kerry. So we had an initial conversation and explored what they could bring to the table. So for me, agency partners is about bringing real added value to an in-house communications team and not kind of replicating what you can already do. And they were talking about this in a way that I don't think anyone else was at the time. And then there was just, you know, as you'd expect, that kind of natural chemistry. I think Kerry's background as an in-house practitioner for many years was definitely part of that. And I think that's part of the decision for us to bring the Remarkables on and how she's set up her agency. So yeah, we took them on and it was definitely a good decision. That kind of audit was a real starting point. But before that, we were having various conversations and continued to do so. So it's quite a natural relationship that's developed. I think I'm being quite humble in that we talk
Speaker 2to dozens and dozens of brands every month and they really were early adopters. And I think the reason for that is because travel has felt this more earlier and quicker than most of the sectors or industries. And so, you know, not only is Amy and the team super curious about what's happening in this, which I think you have to have a really high level of curiosity to be good in this area. But secondly, the travel industry is probably, I'd say, one of the most disrupted in terms of what's happening with LLMs. I mean, I went on holiday over the summer. I went to Puglia, chat to your PT, built me my itinerary. It told me where to stay, who to fly with, when to fly, within my parameters. You know, I think that's just the nature of discoverability now. And travel did feel it hardest and first, I think. Absolutely. And Amy, you mentioned kind
Speaker 1of doing an audit. What did that find and what have you taken away from that as first steps and
Speaker 3sort of tackling GEO? Yeah. So, and to just echo what Kerry said, it's a really, really hot topic. And Kerry's right. You know, people are adopting AI when it comes to how they research travel. And so, that's incredibly important. So, it was a real sort of strong strategic topic for the organisation as well. So, we had full backing from the UK leadership team to really delve into this, which is always really nice when you're supported in terms of what you feel like you need to do from a PR perspective. But there's lots of measurement that happens in this space. And clearly, teams like SEO and more digital teams have been looking at this from an organic search perspective and so on. But this audit was about a much deeper dive, I suppose. It was less about visibility and how are we actually being represented across the LLMs. So, you know, what does the internet know about us? Because unlike humans, the LLMs don't have short memories. They don't have to worry about that. They can scroll information extremely quickly, both from recency, so things that are out there now about your brand, but also years back from various sources that could be really outdated. And AI is clearly in the business of improving itself. It wants people to come back to it. It doesn't want to be recommending the wrong things. So, continuously try to verify the information that's being served, which is why that sort of consistency piece across different channels. So, what you're saying about yourself on your website, what you're saying about yourself on LinkedIn, and then what others are saying about you really need to be connected. And I think comms are, PRs are ultimately in the best position to do that, to be that connector. I don't think there's many other disciplines that really do that. Well, so the audit was essentially surfacing how we're being sort of shared back from, from those, those LLMs. And it's not just ChatGPT, it's all of, all of the platforms, because they look at different things. It's not going to be the same for, for all of those platforms. So yeah, the audit was able to come back to us with perhaps a consideration of what we would do from a media perspective. So where we may have put value on certain publications before, are there any that are coming up that perhaps we hadn't considered? So there was, you know, potentially some surprises in there. What crisis and issues might still be surfacing that from a coverage perspective, when you get your coverage reports, you know, that issue has gone away. That's not the case with LLMs. That's a really interesting shift for PR practitioners to look at. How do you ensure that those LLMs are getting the balanced story? And that might mean different tactics when you're dealing with a crisis situation. So that was particularly interesting. And just really understanding, you know, what do we believe TUI to be and represent? But is that what we want it? Is that being represented on LLMs? And is that accurate? And actually, do we need to make some changes to ensure that there's consistency and the right USPs, and so on. So it was a, that's a real whistle-stop tour, because it was a really in-depth piece of work that I think in total was about nine weeks of going backwards and forwards and a huge amount of prompts. And we've not finished there. That's very much the start, the beginning of the journey. And we're now talking about how we continue that because it's evolving, and we want to continue to be auditing and what exactly that looks like. We're working on that now.
Speaker 1And Kerry, what did you kind of take away from it? What have been the main points that you've helped kind of TUI act upon?
Speaker 2Yeah, and, you know, I think it's really interesting that people are thinking in terms of GEO, if you do it for one brand or business or sector, and it's applicable across so many others. And it's really not. It's almost kind of your digital, it's almost like your fingerprint, right? It's not something that's replicated. It's not something that's replicable. But it's something that constantly evolves and lives as well. I think the three takeouts that I got from working with TUI, and also our partner, Leopard, and Celia, who runs that, I think, first of all, was just how extensive a history TUI was surfacing because of it. It's, you know, a longevity brand, and it's also a very vocal brand. It has a lot of offers and components. It's quite a complex business. So I think that there was, for us, a real discovery set around just how far it extended across LLMs. I think the second thing that we found really surprising was the differences across LLMs. And we talk a lot in our business around the different personalities of chat versus Gemini versus, you know, the core pilot, and how they're used by different stakeholders, and what different citations and reputation anchors they're taking. So it was very much not a one-size-fits-all. And for me, that was really interesting in seeing how different they all were. And I think the third thing that I found really interesting in terms of crisis and issues, because I think a lot of brands and businesses look at this from how can I sell more widgets or sell more staff or sell more seats or do that. But also, I think there's a real piece around reputation management and how you're managing crisis and issues, how you're managing your reputation. And that, for me, was kind of really interesting to surface out of the work we did with TUI and specifically the travel sector. It's completely different when we talk about our other clients, like the alcohol company we've been working with or with the likes of Audion that we've been working with. They're very, very different again. And so one size doesn't fit all. And I think just the work that we've been doing in terms of different models, citation sources, reputational source and crisis and issues brings a flavor to the work that we might not have seen. You know, even in Europe. So I think it's changing that quickly.
Speaker 1I was interested to know, actually, obviously, we announced that you were working with Audion as well. What the kind of the scope of that brief is obviously completely different business to TUI, but obviously just as valuable to be kind of showing up in AI search, I suppose.
Speaker 2Yeah. And a very different brief again. That one's international. So it's looking at all sorts of different markets, language, culture, which is different again. And so that's what I love about doing this work is it is all different. But actually, what it comes back to is what's the commercial return on LLM? And how do we feed into that? And how do we help the business manage that? You know, as comms professionals, you know, pretend I'm in-house again for a sec. Our job is being conveners, right? We convene public affairs. We convene finance, digital, legal. We convene all those parties to make something happen in-house. And so this is no different, really. It's just a different kind of stakeholder we're now thinking about that we have to convene all of those chapters of an organization around and actually get them working in that. And so for me, I think that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's been really interesting is watch communications and corporate affairs professionals step up into this conversation. And I think as an industry, we really have to start stepping into it because we are the ones who are going to lead this work moving into the future. It's not going to be SEO agencies. And Amy, I know you're really passionate about that as well.
Speaker 3I definitely am. And I think for me, this topic can be overcomplicated and over-egged. And that's not to say that this topic isn't hugely important. And I think every PR professional should be thinking about. As they look at this sort of yearly planning, this should be a huge part of their strategy. But this isn't a complete shift of our discipline and our expertise. Like, we've always been about earning trust, credibility across stakeholders, bringing teams together. So I don't think it needs to be kind of overcomplicated or something we should be scared of. Like, we should be leaning in. This is our time because this is everything. We think that we are good at, ultimately. And the basics remain the same. Earning trust, telling good stories, you know, stories that are validated and credible. That's what the LLMs really trust and they want. So I believe we are best set. I would say that probably I'm biased, but I do truly believe that. And as I've been on this journey for the last 12 to 18 months and have been extremely curious and, you know, have been really leaning in. That's what it's still pointing. To and I think we should be really excited about that.
Speaker 1I think we're at the point where PR is really trying to get ahead, as you say, and and make sure that this sits with comms, particularly from the reputational point of view. I think that's important. What do you think is the risk of being seen as trying to kind of manipulate results when it comes to things like crisis? And I'm sure there are there are some people who would argue that, like, it could be seen as trying to game the system and things like that. What's what's your response to to that side of things?
Speaker 3I just don't think you can. The business of AI, they want people to come back. So they have to be recommending accurately and it has to be credible that they don't want to make mistakes about the information that's not right. So I don't think you can game the system, to be honest. I think, you know, I think gone are the days of of spin this, you know, the spin doctor, you know, hate that anyway. And I hate that we may still have that reputation a little bit as an industry. But I truly believe that you can no longer do that because it needs credible, validated information. So some people may argue with me there and maybe some people have got some things up their sleeve. But I think it's far too intelligent and it's set up to not be gamed. It's kind of terribly that way.
Speaker 2Yeah, just to build on that, I wholeheartedly agree. And I think if anyone is telling you they can game it, I'd avoid at all costs. I think the reality is, is you need to understand what it's saying. And more importantly, is what it's saying good or bad? And is it recommending you in the right ways? And are you showing up in where you want to be or not want to be? I think that's the first thing is just understanding it is is so important. We had one client who's about to deploy a massive Reddit strategy to try and improve their standing in an LLM. And when we actually got into it, it wasn't the main source of information for that particular issue or topic. And obviously, we've seen what's been happening in chapter two. We've seen what's been happening in the app GPT recently in the last couple of weeks around Reddit. So I think, first of all, you need to understand what's happening. I think, second of all, like any good communicator, we can do our job better. So how do we help the LLMs be informed? That's not gaming. That is simply making sure that all the right information is discoverable in the right places, in the right ways, in a consistent manner, and making sure that you're easy to understand and that you can be discovered. I think that is what we've always done, whether it's with media or consumers. I think that's what we've always done as a function. And then I think the third thing, and we talk a lot about this, is the LLMs are like a mirror. So if you're not walking the talk and if you are a bad business doing bad stuff, that's not going to get hidden in an LLM and it's definitely not going to be gamed. That's stuff that the LLMs prioritizing in terms of being a trustworthy source itself and being trusted by you as a consumer or whatever the stakeholder you are. Yeah, I think there are ways of being better represented. Being better informed in terms of the bots and the LLMs. But I definitely think if you have someone saying we can game the outcome, it's like saying you can pay for editorial these days. It's just not something that you should be investing behind in that way. Now, we have a lot of clients that run experiments. And I think this is really interesting that you have bespoke experiments on particular topics or issues or thoughts. Or, you know, you've seen John Lewis announced this week that they're going to be doing their experiments in YouTube, right? So, you know, you've got brands playing. So, I think it's really interesting that you're being interested and being curious about how do we show up in certain ways and spaces. And I think that's really interesting. But the LLMs is foundation in terms of both what it's recalling about you and the recency effect of it. It's just something you have to treat as a stakeholder and better inform.
Speaker 1Yeah, really interesting. As you say, like with the platforms constantly evolving, how do you keep up with that and sort of make sure that you're on top of which sources they're drawing from, I suppose?
Speaker 2Yeah, our partner Leopard are really great at this. And I think they are super curious as a way. We do a lot of work here as well. I'm just staying up to date. But again, I think this experimentation is really interesting and running live audits. So, you know, we talk to clients about what frequency they should be thinking about, figuring out what the LLMs are surfacing and how they're surfacing. And that will give you an indication, staying up on top of trends, staying up on top of things like paid advertiser lists or the advertising trends that are happening. You know, all of those will give you a level of intelligence. I do think working with specialist agencies on this is quite helpful. Because I think you'll get a level of depth at the rate at which it moves is phenomenal. But I think experimentation is really interesting in this space.
Speaker 1Yeah, for sure. And then when it comes to measurement, obviously, that's the big topic for God knows how long. I mean, do you think it's making measurement easier in PR? Is it helping us kind of prove our worth commercially? And I suppose, how do you measure results when it comes to GEA?
Speaker 3I think it's probably the biggest opportunity for us when it comes. I don't think it's yet particularly simple, but I do think it's an opportunity. I think it's opened up some doors and intrigue for myself internally and some interesting conversations. But in terms of there being sort of a silver bullet of a really great measurement front. And again, I think it comes back to what are your business objectives and what are you measuring against? And I think there's such focus on there being a sort of framework and a one size fits all. It's all like measurements in different. It's going to look different in different businesses. So that's still a gap for me. I mean, we've always been quite passionate and ahead of where how we measure and it's outcome focused and connected to commercial outcomes. So I think this is a really big opportunity. But we're we're a mass brand and we're sort of circulating between 2000 and 3000 pieces of coverage a month. So in terms of being able to measure that, that can be tricky, which is why I think. Sort of tests and experiments are probably something we'll we'll do a little bit more on. Like what tweaks can we make and what impact does it have on LLMs? But in terms of being able to measure that monthly to your C-suite and to be able to really show your contribution across everything in LLMs is still definitely a gap. I think really interesting point around continuing to audit because it continues to change. Some of the just really interesting conversations, for example, in travel, we have trade publications. Most industries will have trade publications and you would usually approach those trade publications in a certain way for certain topics. And of course, they still have certain topics that they are. going to over index on so for ours it's sort of that retail travel agent space but where they're so credible those trade publications have been operating for such a long time the llms will be pulling from that content whereas you probably would have cast your trade publications as a c tier for example if you were to compare it against i don't know the mail online or the financial times but i think those kind of conversations are really interesting whereas before if you said to your you know your management director your ceo we've just secured this in travel weekly or ttg it might not have had quite as much of a resounding applause as if you'd have featured in the ft and i think we're a long way off that but i think now but this has really changed how we kind of what publications we should be focused on it's really changing the game there and the types of conversations i have never really had this experience but i've seen lots of linkedin posts in the past around you know how do i convince my ceo that you know success isn't featuring in forbes or um the front of the new york times or whatever it might be and i think this gives that opportunity for for us to be more strategic about how we communicate the value of what we do it's not just about sort of headline coverage in in some of those big tier publications i think this really changes the game we've also had conversations recently with
Speaker 2clients around model monitoring and media monitoring and how the two overlap or align and i think that we'll see a lot more dashboard work starting to come out whether it's visibility scores or sentiment or that's at a top level right what what we do is much deeper than that we're going into strategic insights we're going to commercial we're actually going pretty deep in terms of data sets and that's the other thing is we do this at massive scale we don't do this in you know one or two prompts in chat gpt logged in on your sunday afternoon we're kind of like you know properly arm's length doing mass scale search and prompt development on this to give you thematics as well as detailed insights so i think there is a little bit around going making sure whatever you do do is at scale making sure whatever you do do sits alongside your day-to-day because the ft is still important for whatever reason you know in your business objectives probably and then really starting to think about well where am i going to experiment and i call it going back to 2005 like is my website up to date like is my profile up today i mean from an exec perspective there's a consistency across you know some of it is super for for some clients just really simple stuff and then thinking about well actually what's the biggest strategic insight here reputationally crisis and issues funnel marketing you know all of those topics as well so measurement i hope it's the holy grail i hope we finally have unlocked our place uh in the commercial section of the c-suite table god knows i've been there a lot of times i've been there a lot of times i've been there a lot of times i've been there a lot of times i've been there a lot of times i've been there a lot of times i've been there to know that the question of what's my roi um i i feel like we're starting on a journey that might
Speaker 1actually start to unlock that yeah might even um help us eradicate ave who knows can we have a funeral for it that would be amazing absolutely so looking ahead over i suppose the next couple of years although like the it's it's evolving so quickly that who knows um where do you think we're going to end up with geo in the pr world how are we going to kind of claim it do you think it's a agency's popping up or the current kind of big agencies evolve their offer how how do you think
Speaker 3it's going to sort of play out it depends on whether it's a what i hope would happen i think that we will see roles that kind of don't exist today or job descriptions that don't exist today coming up i think that that sort of connectivity of a pr person and it being much more defined that that person is a kind of central place of truth or conduit for all of these areas because ownership cannot can get complicated in businesses you know we're responsible for the sort of earned media but then you have things like where does the responsibility sit for the youtube creators and the you know influencers and then the review sites and you know the paid and the owned and the earned and i think there could be a space for a new unit or a new role and different job descriptions that can kind of pull those things together i don't know if that's going to happen in the next two years but i think perhaps in the next five i guess it depends on on what we do as an industry and then how much we really take ownership of this and get ahead of it so but from the from an agency perspective i don't know i think carrie's probably best placed but from my perspective the agency model that i guess we've broadly are moving to is less of a just one agency that we're moving to is less of a just one agency that we're moving to is less of a just one agency does everything and more of a what is it that we need and which agencies do we think are best are best suited to deliver that particular brief or or help us with a particular problem i think that's probably the way that we're approaching some of our agency relationships
Speaker 1i mean you spoke about when you're speaking to agencies in the remarkable kind of being the ones to to say something different where do you think the rest of the industry perhaps needs to to catch up currently what's how how can it evolve again i can only speak for
Speaker 3from my perspective and how i know that i run the uk communications team and the talent and the expertise that i have here this will look really different for some other prs where there are sort of a one-man band and you know they're just kind of doing everything whereas we have you know quite a strong in-house capability so for me because we were a little bit ahead of the curve unbeknownst to me initially as carrie mesh i was being humble i think it was about an agency that i think i said it earlier was about adding value and i think not purposefully but sometimes there can be a view that the in-house teams need support that they don't actually need or they need to be taught something that they don't actually know and i think that in-house teams can be underestimated is what i think i'm trying to say and like i say i don't think that's purposeful and i think this is why it was great for me to to work with someone like carrie and for us as a team because really understanding the complexity of working in-house and what's needed and how you need to get buy-in and internally and so on is something that you don't see a lot you know i don't there's not many agency founders and people that work within agencies that really do have that breadth of in-house experience and maybe that's something that we might see change a little bit more maybe agencies need to start looking at in-house talent or consultants that have worked in-house and bring that expertise in because the talent the expertise and the sort of understanding of your business in-house is shouldn't be underestimated you're making me blush mma you're
Speaker 2making me blush i'm just going to add one one or two things to the to the future piece which i think is important maybe which is i think as an industry we are terrible and i feel like after 25 years i have license to say this we are terrible at claiming something making it our own and making a market out of something and i think that's something that we need to do and i think that's like you know i've lived through websites i've lived through social blogs creators all of it and we need to come together as an industry and say this is our territory yes seo and partnership call no problem but this is actually where we win this is how we're going to lead it you know i make up did a great job on you know guidelines around that but this is what we think and sign up to be true in terms of how this industry and how this future office should work and we need to do that together because doing it inside we're not going to make a market you know it's just too it's too many voices with too many opinions and too little proof in my opinion so i think that's the first thing i think second thing i don't think we know what next 12 months looks like i think all of these things are constantly evolving but the brands and businesses and agencies who are experimenting and learning and building and sharing so celia and i at leopard have spent about 15 months and together we probably educated about 600 people in our industry on this and that needs to happen at more frequency more often and more reach so that we all have the same level of understanding and can work at scale on this and i've said before i think you're going to launch a geo week within the next 12 months i reckon this is going to be really big business and i think it's going to end up having its own kind of specialism in terms of industry um commentary so we look forward to doing a geo week podcast in 12 months time maybe yeah we'll see if there's enough appetite
Speaker 1maybe maybe a second time i think that's going to be really big business and i think it's going to be a spin-off could be on the cards in terms of getting to to that point where where the industry does come together on this hopefully what advice would you give to um i guess an in-house team or an in-house pr professional who hasn't made a start on geo and to an agency that that really
Speaker 3wants to move into that space how how would you recommend doing that i would say just get really curious read there's lots of stuff out there from various sort of thought leaders kerry and i included just in this space but yeah there's a lot there's lots of stuff out there across linkedin across pr week incomes there's loads of stuff out there so i would say and even like titles like forbes they've wrote they've written about this topic so i would say get get curious lean in don't be fearful it really is you know i've said earlier this is i believe our time and it's absolutely our skill set as communications professionals. so there's really nothing to to fear i would also say from an in-house perspective if you haven't already connect with the other departments work as closely as humanly possible get nosy find out what they're doing what they're talking about how they're reporting it so i would say must muscle your way in but i would do that after you've got the real solid understanding of how crucial our role is here and visibility is great but being recommended is really what we what should be the marker of success and that comes from consistency signals building trust and credibility and that is what you do as a pr professional you don't need to buy into the technicalities of it and gima markups and some of this stuff like try not to get bamboozled by some of that it can be simple so i would say yeah lean in i mean the reason we're here is amy appointed
Speaker 2somebody in her team to have curiosity around it like she she physically tasks somebody in her team to think about this which it was the right person she tasked right so i think there's also if you were in-house just put somebody in your team on it someone who's naturally curious you know that might not be the the young and either it might be somebody who is you know heading towards 40 who just is genuinely interested in this and put them on it and give them that license to learn send them off to events get them to upskill get agencies in to give you workshops and really prompt your curiosity because actually not just amy but a couple of clients that i'm seeing who are ahead have done that they haven't just said as a head of comms or the comms director it's my responsibility you know they've devolved that into a responsibility among the team which i think is brilliant but agencies i think no knowing before you speak on this is really important and i think making sure you are as clued up if not more clued up than your clients is really important being out there listening learning not being afraid to refer in i had an amazing conversation with another agency two weeks ago who were brilliant who i've looked up to for years and they were really brilliant and they've gone this is not our bag but we want to play you in would you come and have a conversation to a client yeah of course you know rising tide lifts all boats we all win right so i think there's also a little bit about more agency collaboration of going i'm not i don't know this stuff i'm not good at this stuff but i know the experts that are and actually i'm happy to play them in so i think just being a bit more magnanimous like that is is helpful and the other thing the last thing i'd say is that if you think your in-house clients are not talking about this and not thinking about it and not knowing about it then you're not talking about it and you're not talking about it then you are vastly underestimating what this is its commercial impact and your clients and moving at the speed of client is what's important and the fact that some of the biggest agencies in the world have only just launched an offer and we've been going for 15 months tells me that some of the tankers cannot move at the speed of client and i'd be looking as an agency of going how do i keep up with my clients because actually they will outstrip
Speaker 1you on this piece possibly i think it's definitely in in a lot of cases there's a need to demand mystify it and kind of remove some of the jargon around it and show that this is kind of good pr practice regardless of if you're into the data and the tech side of it and hopefully the the conversation that we've had today has helped people to realize that sadly we are almost out of time but thank you both for such an insightful conversation and yeah hopefully some people have taken some um helpful tips away from it thanks to you two for listening and until next time goodbye you
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