TS&TT: God's Gift of Elders to His Church

Thank you for joining us for this conversation today on The Sword and the Trial. Today Pastor Tom and I talk about eldership. We talk about some of the biblical foundations for the office of eldership, what an elder ought to look like. And then we also spend a quite a bit of time talking about practically how do you raise up elders in your church? How do you go from a singular elder to a plurality of elders and what are healthy ways in which elders can operate together within the same church? I hope it's a helpful conversation for you. Take a listen. Welcome to The Sword and the Trial. The Sword and the Trial is a podcast of founders' ministries and founders exist for the recovery of the gospel and the reformation of local churches. I'm Graham Gundon. I'm Tom Ashful. And today's episode is brought to you by Lake Yale Baptist Conference Center. Today Pastor Tom and I are going to talk about pastors. Oh wait, it's different. Overseers? Oh they're all the same thing. That's right. Yeah we are Baptists so we do believe that those are all referring to the same. With no apology to our Anglican friends. Yeah or any other Christian brothers who may disagree. But we just think that's biblical. Yeah that's what the Bible says. We want to talk today about elders, eldership, pastoring and the qualifications for elders, the responsibilities, the tasks that the elders have and maybe talk about some practical issues because we want to be help to the pastors out there who listen to this podcast and also perhaps encourage some who are not elders if they are qualified to perhaps seek that noble task that Paul talks about in first and second. Yeah and to help church members to understand the value and the place of elders, the lane that God has given elders to function in. And man there's just, you just see the goodness of God whenever a church is operating with a proper eldership and a proper congregational life. I mean I can testify to God's kindness and grace in that. We haven't always had that and we've had our ups and downs no doubt. But we're in a season right now where it's just so wonderful to see what God has done and I can honestly say looking back over the long period decades of ministry in this church that with very few exceptions God has given us incredible elders. I mean Jesus had 12 apostles, one of them was a devil. So you think, oh goodness we're not betting 100% all the time and something's wrong. No but to see even whenever elders go bad or elders have to be addressed in a way that maybe they need to be set aside or step back or something. If that's handled by the eldership and the congregation it's just a really healthy thing and God has blessed us with that. So I'm cognizant of it. I'm aware of his grace in our church and especially right now and you and I are elders in this congregation and we've had some pretty tough nuts to crack in our eldership and thinking through issues even even recently. And how do you do that? How do you go about making a decision and how do you go about leading the congregation when things are not really that clear but are incredibly important? Yeah and the tough nuts to crack are not typically how do we increase giving? How do we increase attendance? What do we do for this rebranding project about our new bookstore that we want to remodel? Those are not typically the things that we think about. We do think about those things. We have thought about remodeling our moon bookstore. Yeah maybe you haven't but I have. That'll fix it. And we have thought about logos and rebranding and stuff like that but that typically doesn't take up very much of our time. But the tough nuts to crack what takes a lot of our time is the shepherding of souls. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to souls are far more complicated than church buildings or giving projects or building projects or whatever other things that an executive pastor type might be concerned with or the board of a company or a 501c3 may be concerned with. Those are one thing and elders sometimes have to give their attention to those things. But souls are very complex, very difficult things to comprehend and the correct way forward for a soul that's found itself in very deep dark difficult place can be a very challenging thing to do. And so I'm grateful the Lord has called churches with multiplicity of elders that and especially in our church that we have multiple elders. It's not just one pastor at the head making those decisions for all the souls in the congregation. Yeah. That's right. Whenever you think about okay churches made up of centers and in our Baptist ecclesiology we say converted centers or we want a regenerate church membership and so we try to make sure everyone who comes into the congregation as a member has a credible profession of faith. Everyone comes in on profession. That's right. And so we want to do our best. But again there's no guarantee we can't look into the heart or of a person and see if grace is there. Although maybe if we start getting AI to do our membership interviews, AI could do a better job of figuring it out. Yeah. Well it takes well anyway. No. So you're talking about centers who've been converted but they're in image burs and they still have remained sin and they're being shepherded by image burs who have been converted but still have remained sin. And part of the struggles that we've had to deal with over the years is recognizing our finitude as elders. We're not omniscient and we don't see everything we ought to. We don't have all the ability that we would like to have. And so you have to make decisions in real time. It's like you know the battlefield decisions are different than decisions we're sitting in a classroom looking at theory of warfare. And sometimes those decisions you look back on say well could have been done better this way or maybe shouldn't have done that way. And that's always going to be the case. But here is the comforting thought. And that is that God has been faithfully caring for his church for 2000 years with sinful elders. You know fallen elders, limited elders. And this is God's wisdom. So it's not we're not left to ourselves and our own strategies and our own abilities. But God has ordained this and as he has ordained it. So he equips and so by his word and spirit he empowers and guides us. And we can be very hopeful of that. And just like everything else in the Christian life when an elder makes a mistake, our elder sins, there's no condemnation in Christ Jesus. And so we can confess that. We can acknowledge it. We can make amends. We can get up and start over. And you know we've had to do that. And we've I can think of at least two times off the top of my head when our elders have had to formally stand before the congregation and say we believe we have failed you in these ways, you know, during both of them during the crisis and looking back on it after we got through the crisis. We did not do this well as well as we should have. And we failed and in that sense we have sinned and we ask you forgiveness and you know, congregation is very gracious to forgive. And one of the tasks of an elder is to lead by example. As a as a congregation is pursuing godliness, they are to be led in that pursuit by their elders as they're led in all things by their elders. And if a elder individual elder or a group of elders cannot repent of sin, well they're being an example to the rest of the congregation. Well, maybe I don't need to repent of sin either. Maybe I should be afraid of repenting. Maybe I should be afraid of admitting my mistakes, my failures. And so yeah, elders have to lead by example in repentance. And it's one of those common things in the history of the church that elders fail their congregation. As you say, we are imperfect. Vessels, elders are sinful human beings as well. In Ezekiel 33, the Lord tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the shepherds of Israel, God's judgment, because they had failed so severely in their leading of Israel. And to the point where they were abusing the flock and they were mistreating the flock for their own gain. And that happens in churches, no doubt. And so it's a sobering thing that God has called shepherds to lead his people. And when the shepherds fail and when they sin against his people and they abuse his people, God does then judge those shepherds. But one of the wonderful things about that text in Ezekiel 33 is even when God's shepherds are not doing their duty to watch over God's people, God says, I will be their shepherd. I will not bring them in. I will not allow them to be scattered. And so God, even though his people, his shepherds may fail, his people, he won't allow his sheep to be lost. That's a comforting thing. I mean, we all fail. There are moments in our ministry where we look back and we say, boy, I should have done better. I should have done this differently. But knowing that God is going, Christ is going to shepherd his people because He is the over shepherd and we are serving under Him. The gospel-centered movement tried to make everything a gospel issue. But the fact is, not everything is a gospel issue. Some things are issues of God's law because the God who gave us the gospel also gave us His law. And He loves His law as much as He loves His gospel. And if you're not straight on God's law and God's gospel, you will not understand the Bible the way that you ought to. That is why Founder's Ministries is scheduling another conference on God's law and God's gospel. We hope that you will join us in 2027, January the 21st through the 23rd here in Southwest Florida as we delve into this most vital of all biblical doctrines. There are a few mercies greater than sacred spaces set apart for the soul's refreshment. At Lake Yale Baptist Conference Center pastors find rest through sabbaticals, youth and children grow through camps and churches gather for ministry events that strengthen the body of Christ. In a world full of noise, Lake Yale creates space to connect with God, with others and with the mission. Lake Yale Baptist Conference Center connect here. Learn more at lybcc.com. That's lybcc.com. That's a great hope and confidence that we can have. And again, any Christian can have it knowing any of your duties. You do the best you can. You're an unprofitable servant and you know that God's grace is what enables you to accomplish anything that is right and good. And I take great comfort too in God's revelation of his own care for his people in Jeremiah chapter three when he says, "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will lead you in knowledge and understanding." And so God cares about his people far more than we do. And the best thing that I can do as an under shepherd of Jesus is to grow in my own relationship with Christ so that as I look at my duties and they come to me and I have to do things, I will be doing that as someone who knows the shepherd who is confident in what Christ is going to do for his church. And the promises he's given to build his church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And that doesn't mean he's going to do it in every local congregation. Churches die and that can happen to any local congregation. But the kingdom of God goes on and the church of Jesus Christ goes on. And so we don't have to be afraid of people. We're not to fear man. We can give ourselves holy to the fear of God and say, this is what our God has said. This is what Christ says about his church and this is where we're going. One of the things that gets confounded pretty frequently in our baptism or baptismal circles is thinking that a local congregation is a democracy. And I kind of grew up thinking that, we're bad, we're democratic. I was told that time and time again by my Presbyterian friends and Bible college that, well, you know, you're just a Americanized Christian with and you love your democracies and that's why you like congregationalism. Yeah, well, I mean, and for my background, I would say there's a lot to that. I was more American than Christian in my thinking about how the church ought to operate. And I don't know if I formerly taught that or just breathed the air or what. But in coming to what I think it would be a clearer understanding of the scripture, the church is not a democracy. It's a Christocracy. So every church is a Christocracy. Every church has Christ as its head. So what does that mean? Does that mean that the members can vote to do whatever they want to do? No, it means the members are free to do what Christ wants them to do. Now does that mean they're going to do that every time and that they're not able to send? No, they can send. But whenever they do something, contrary to what Christ wants done, they are sending. They're going against the head of the church. Same with the elders. Elders can't do whatever the elders want to do. No, the elders have to do what Christ wants done. And so that puts us all on the same playing field with the same goal given the same book to try to understand and to live according to going forward. And where that happens, you know, it's not without hiccups and it's not without some difficulties. But man, it's glorious. It's good because nobody's sitting around saying, well, you can't do that. I'm going to vote against you. It's not that. It's what does Christ want? Yeah. Well, that does bring up the question then of what is the rules of the church member in terms of submitting to one's elders. Paul says in Hebrews, I don't know if it's Paul. But the author of Hebrews says in chapter 13 that we are to submit to our leaders. What is understood there by leaders as elders? So how do we do that? What are what are we required to do as church members? Is it just then that elders have all authority to make every decision in the church? And the congregation just always kind of gets behind and doesn't make any decisions? Or should the congregation have any sort of say what happens? Well, I'm convinced fully that the congregation must have say they have authority as well. And when you read Galatians chapter one and you see what Paul says, not to the elders, not to the deacons, but he says to the churches of Galatia in that opening chapter that even if an angel or an apostle were to come and preach to you, a gospel different than the one I preach to you, let him be anathema. In other words, he's telling them you must be prepared to condemn them to hell. Well, that's church members. I mean, that raises the bar. That's why for badges becoming a church member in the local badges church is far more important and consequential than it would be in another church where all of the authority is located in a small group or in one person because the church has authority over the doctrine of the congregation. And if somebody deviates from that which has been given by Christ within the congregation has responsibility. And the elder goes bad, the congregation has responsibility to hold him accountable. But elders have authority too. We have authority to counsel that which the Bible reveals. And so we lead God's people. We lead the church into understanding the mind of Christ as he's revealed it. And then we had managed them to do what Christ says. And if they refuse to do that, then we call them to repent. And we call the rest of the congregation to deal with them the way that Jesus tells the church to deal with someone who refuses to hear even the church in Matthew chapter 18. Yeah, Matthew 18, I think is very clear in that the church is supposed to have authority and exercising the keys when it comes to church discipline. You get to that third level of church discipline that you tell it even to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church because the church then has a responsibility then call this brother to repentance. And if he refuses to listen even to the church who has authority, let him be a tax collector in the Gentile. And Paul says in 2 Corinthians 2 verse 5, "If anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure not to put it to severely to all of you." So there's this sinner and he references this is probably the one who's referenced in 1 Corinthians as well. He's caused pain to the whole congregation. He's sent against the whole congregation and the congregation then it took action. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough so that you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. You see this punishment by the majority. What's this language of majority? Why? What's majority? Yeah, no, that's 12. No, that's 50. Yeah, well, and that's the majority of the congregation that has been sinned against. Which is a whole number. Which is a number that can be counted. Exactly. So insiders, outsiders, very clear. You have to take a vote. You have to determine by the church what we're going to do with this particular group. Yeah, I mean, we're in a day and again, I heard it again just last week where church membership is a question. And again, I get it. There's been all kind of confusion and maybe abuse within churches, but people think of open membership. I'm a member because I say I'm a member. I want to be a member. I come. I give. I serve. And so that makes me a member. Well, we don't do that here. And we've had people argue. I've had people argue with me over the years at different times saying, well, I am a member. You can't keep me from me. I'm a member. No, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand how things work around here. You're not free to keep me from the Lord's table. No, this is the Lord's table. We're the stewards of it. And we can keep you from it. And we will keep you from it. I'm a believer. And I know I'm a believer. And so I'm going to take it to the table. And yeah, you can't stop me from doing that. Well, yeah, yes, we can. We will. Yeah. And we, you know, that's another thing when it comes to partaking of the Lord's supper. The elders have authority and need to protect the Lord's table and need defense to the Lord's table from those who had partaken it on a really manner. And so we do that every time we partake of the Lord's supper. And it's not we want to see people not just to say they believe, but people who have a church who can testify to that profession. Sometimes that's our church. And we testify to that profession faith. And we say, yes, this is a brother. This is a sister. Sometimes it's not our church. Sometimes it's a different church. And we take that church at their word that, yeah, this, this one is a brother or this one as a sister. But we don't just simply go off off of the word of the one individual. Right. Because that's not how the Lord's supper is, is given to the church that the church would partake together. And the church has to admit these into membership. You know, in this inner day of age, it's not uncommon to hear things like this that I've heard multiple times from different sectors about different people, including myself. You know, well, so and so is my pastor. You know, a guy lives in California and he's talking about somebody who lives in Texas. He's my pastor because I listen to him on YouTube all the time. You know, no, I'm not a member of the church. I mean, I've had these conversations. I'm not a member of any church, but I listen to so and so and so and so and so. They're my pastors. No, they're not. No, they're not. And when people try to do that, you know, you guys are our pastors or you're our pastor. No, I'm not standing before God and giving an account for your soul. I got plenty to give an account for in the folks who have pledged themselves to follow Christ together in this local assembly. And I'll do my best to care for them and shepherd them. And if I can be helpful, you find, but this is what God's called me to do as a pastor, as an elder. We have had people in our church for over a year who have not pursued membership. who will say things like, well, you're my pastor. And at that point, we have to remind them, well, no, I'm not your pastor. I don't have authority over you. I have authority over this congregation and what happens in this building, but I don't have authority over you and your soul. And that often is a good reminder to those that, oh, perhaps I ought to obey the Lord and seeking to find leaders to submit myself to you. Like, I'm told to do in the Hebrews 13. Yeah, yeah. And you cannot, I've had, this is one line of argumentation. I've used with people who just don't get it or grew up with this or have a sense of open membership and you kind of decide however you want to be, is how do you determine who you are to submit to? And how do you fulfill things that the Bible calls all Christians to do, assuming church membership? You can't do it. You can't do the second Corinthians too. You can't do that. You can't do first Corinthians five, you know, putting them outside the church. You can't do Matthew 18, 15 through 20. You just can't do it unless you are a part of a body where you are known as a Christian and where you know others to be Christians and you have somehow committed yourself. You've made a testimony whether that's a formal confession and covenant or something else, but there's some clear way, is that we were once outside, now we're inside. And the insiders are the ones who are responsible for carrying out these duties that are given to church members and they are the ones that elders, whom the Holy Spirit has made to be overseers, as Paul says in Acts chapter 20, are responsible to shepherd. - In the work of World Missions, those who send missionaries are as important to the cause as those who are sent out. William Carey famously described missionaries as those who go down into an unexplored pit and those who send and support missionaries as the ones who must hold the ropes for them. But if we are to hold the ropes, we must also know the ropes. That is, both sending churches and cross cultural church planters must possess a mishiology that is both biblically sound and confessionally robust. Reforming World Missions, a new book from Founders Press, was written to equip both churches and missionaries to raise up many biblically qualified missionaries who are sent well into the world as filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters fill the sea. You can order your copy today at FoundersPress.org. - For the first time in decades, men are returning to churches. And yet very often when they walk into those churches, they're met with the same kind of attitudes that have been cast toward them for generations. And that is that strength is dangerous, that power should not be pursued and that their ambition is somehow suspect. Well, to combat that wrong way of thinking about masculinity, Chase Davis has written a wonderful book called "Affensive Christianity" and restoring the strength of men in a feminized age. Christianity is inherently masculine. That doesn't mean it's not for women, but it is strong. And we need a strong faith to face the challenges of this day. So I encourage you to get a copy of "Affensive Christianity" and read it and share it with the people in your churches, especially the men in your churches. For more information and in order to get a copy of it, you can order it from FoundersPress.org. - Let's talk about your experience then a little bit. You have been an elder in Southern Baptist churches. - Two Southern Baptist churches? - Three. - Three Southern Baptist churches, for how long? - Oh my. Then it started in 1978. So what is that, 48 years? Coming up on 48 years, yeah. - Okay, so in those three different churches, most of that time has been at Grace Baptist Church. What are some of the things that you've learned about eldership, what are some mistakes that you or the churches that you've been a part of have made? And what are some of the most, I mean having such a broad experience of eldership in a church, what are some things that perhaps pastors really ought to be shooting for, aiming for, that's gonna help them lead their congregation? - Yeah, well first, when I started, I did not understand plurality of elders. And no concept of that, I just grew up with a pastor. I was the pastor of this church when I was a student at Texas A&M, and that was it. So I wasn't looking for other elders, other men, to help shepherd the flock with me, the deacons. They had jobs to do, and I didn't understand that either, but the deacons were kind of the power brokers. - And this is that understanding that you really, you only need one elder in a church. - Yeah, the pastor is the elder, the elder is the pastor and you don't need more than one. - Yeah, that's right. That's my mentality. And so then I went to a large church in Dallas, and I was on staff there. And so I was considered, we didn't use word elder, when you use word bishop, but we were pastors. I think I was an assistant pastor, and had responsibilities to help do some of those pastoral tasks. So that was not clear either. I come here, and I'd gotten some clarity. I'd just never seen it done. You know, I was a member of a church about three months before we moved out to Cape Coral. After I resigned the church in Dallas, and then came here, and the church had no elders. And it was a lot of other problems, but it took years to get elders, but I came telling them, look, this is what I'm gonna miss is biblical. The 1689 gave those out to all the leaders, and since this is what I believe, who are the leaders? - You know, the elders. - Zeacons, man. I mean, you know, it was Deacons. It was absolutely Deacon Runchurch, and that was pretty typical. And so we talked about that, and it's interesting because as I told them, you know, I want us to go to elders, I want us to pray that God will give us, and that we might see raised up men who will be qualified to help shepherd this lot. And the most interesting thing, we had some other debates and battles before we even got to that point, but by the time we got to that point, there were still people who were saying, this is a power-broker move by you. You're just trying to consolidate all the power. I said, no, I got all the power, you know? - You guys know the only elder. - And the church was kind of an independent fundamentalist mindset, and so the power, you know, touched not the Lord's anointed. I mean, that was the kind of the mentality here, though many of them just regarded that that they were trying to touch. But I mean, it was still, you know, the pastors of the guy, and as I'm trying to spread authority, I'm trying to protect the congregation from a pope, and I'm trying to protect the pastor from those who would make him a puppet, you know? This is what the word of God says. So it took us, I don't know, four or five years to adopt constitutionally a statement that we recognize the plurality of elders, and then some years after that. And the first time we voted to do it, you know, we prepared the church, taught a long time, and voted to formally move forward to have some men become elders. The vote was split. I forget what it was. It was something like 60, 40, or maybe 75, 35 or something. But we had enough to do it. And at that meeting, I just asked those that had voted forward, if they'd be willing to rescind their votes. I said, we can be a church, you know, without a plurality of elders, and we have been, we can continue to do that. I don't think we're being as healthy as we could be, but it's just not worth splitting over. And I don't want people to be afraid of it. And God used that after, I don't know, just a few months, within six months, the folks that had voted against it. So, okay, you know, you're really not trying to pull a power play here. And we voted unanimously to have elders, you know, which was great, move forward. And men, it made my life so much easier. There's just wisdom in a multitude of counselors. And some of the things that, if you're gonna try to shepherd a church, well, you need more than yourself. I mean, I got blind spots. And I don't want my blind spots to dictate the kind of church we're gonna be, and how people are gonna be cared for. I want other men who can make up for my deficiencies and my blind spots, and do things better than I can do in moving the congregation along the pathway that Christ has ordained for us and caring for people. So, even if it wasn't prescribed in scripture, if it was just allowed, knowing what I know now, I would certainly advocate it, 'cause it's been wonderful. - So, I think, you know, there's a lot, I think there's a lot of pastors out there who don't have a plurality of elders, would like to have a plurality of elders. Sometimes the reason they don't have a plurality of elders is because, well, their constitution doesn't allow for it. They're kind of that typical Southern Baptist type of church. Sometimes it's because, well, there aren't any other elder qualified men, or perhaps our elder qualified men, but just maybe perhaps are not fit for leadership in that church for some reason. So, what was your, you know, I know a lot of pastors who take on church revitalization projects and wanna see health infused into the congregation that they're going to, and the thing that people are always counsel to do is take your time, move slowly, don't make too many big changes at once, and the guy going in to do it will go in with that idea, and they'll even say, I don't wanna make too many changes at once, and then the very next week, he makes massive changes. Yeah, I don't know what it is. It's always the warning given, always the warning received, never the warning heated. I don't know what it is, but it took you four to five years to make that really massive change. What was your strategy going through that? Was it just teach, teach, teach, or was there other stuff going on? Yeah, no, it was absolutely teach, teach, teach. I mean, that was it. I did everything I could to convince the congregation. First of all, they believed the word of God. They just didn't know what was in the word of God. I mean, they believed that default, we're gonna believe. So I took advantage of that. So we're going to believe everything this book teaches. We're going to go everywhere this book says go regardless of cost of consequence. And that became kind of a theme for us going forward. So I taught on the authority of scripture. And taught on what a true Christian is at a first John and the servant on the mount. And then spent Sunday nights teaching on Bible doctrines, you know, so the inspiration of scripture and Doctor of God, Doctor of Christ, Doctor of Salvation doing that. And then on Wednesday nights, less formally kind of had some dialogue time about these doctrines as well. And again, spent years doing that. And I met on Saturday mornings with a group of men just open it up. Anybody wants to come. We started reading some puret in books and other things just to let them engage good material in a low stress, low key way, asking questions. And people, you see people that go to that and they learn from that and they benefit from that. And then we had some godly men here who had had experience in church leadership before. And so they helped to get the transition going because these were men. They were two retired guys who had been pastors. And so the congregation recognized, you know, these are godly men. And so that helps a great deal. But you know, they weren't able to do a lot because of physical limitations. But over time, then other men as God raised them up, the idea of a plurality of elders was already kind of baked into the way the church thought. And then one of the other things, just reading scripture, read scripture and whenever you come across Bible words that folks didn't understand or maybe were inoculated against like election or predestination, whenever you find it in the text, just call attention to it. You know, elders or bishops in that interesting, you know, look at Acts 20 or Paul calls for the elders and he tells them that the Holy Spirit has made them bishops overseers and that they're to pastor the flow. These three words made the same thing. You just call attention to it. You have to elaborate on it. And it just begins to help people to, oh yeah, that's the book we believe. It says this. And begin to show them the things that they, they thought they understood about the book. Maybe they didn't understand as clearly as they should. And it's in there. And if it's in there, or we're already committed to going wherever it leads us. So yeah, it was, there was plenty to do. But I pray is God for his faithfulness, his grace. I'm not by nature a patient guy. But teach, there's no substitute for teaching, teaching, teaching, teaching. I think if you ask a church to make or even an individual to make a change before they understand the reason for making the change, you're actually setting them up to violate their conscience. You would do that. Enlighten their conscience. Set their conscience free by the word of God. Yeah. So then in your experience, what are some of the best ways to raise up elders? Because there are some churches that just, and pastors struggle to find qualified men to serve as elders in their congregation. What steps can they take strategically to raise those men up? Yeah, well, I think like this Saturday morning, Puritan reading time, you know, we had, and we've done it different times, mostly Saturdays, but we did someone Tuesday mornings for years as well. And not just Puritans, but just good books, you know, and I don't think I started with Sharnock or Owen, but I mean, we got to them eventually. But just having, encouraging people to read, that was a high number on one of the things that I look back on that I think God used. I bought with my own money books that we set out that we sold very cheaply. I mean, so that you know, we buy them for two bucks and you sell them for 30 cents or 20 cents or something. Just so people have to have a little bit vested and get them and start with some warm books like Spurgeon's, the Soul Winner, or Words to Winners of Souls, or just things that are devotional in nature. What was MacIntyre's book on, on prayer, just things when people read it, they benefit from it, and then they trust you because you gave them something that benefited them. Something that's digestible. There's a lot of those things available today, and then as they begin to benefit from their own reading and study, you can help them with more stuff. So I think having something for men that is open, that anybody can come to, and then as you see guys that show us some promise, doing some special things with them, you know, okay, man, let's read this book together. Or let's spend some time together. I worked through the confession of faith with different guys. You know, and it just was great. We had great time doing that. So there's no, there's no substitute for time and energy in teaching and teaching men, praying that God will send men, send gifts to the church that can help shepherd the church. And there have been pivotal moments along the way. I remember one time early, I was at my wits end, and a young man and his wife visited from Texas. We had a lot of common from our background in Texas, went to same school. And, you know, man, we just done it and I hit it off with them because they were about our age, and we were the only ones that age in the church. And then they started going to another church, and you know, I remember praying God if they don't come, if they don't join this church, I want to go to them. And one day they showed up again after several weeks, and they said, well, the church we were looking for, we couldn't find. You know, and it's like God just blinded them to where that church was back in the day before Internet maps. And so they said, well, we know where grace is, so they came. And, you know, God put him here, he became a deacon, his own way to becoming an elder, and we sent him off to be a missionary. And, you know, just a, but a fine leader in the church. He was doing great work as a deacon, and really competent Bible teacher. Family worship is the practice of regularly gathering as a family to study God's word, pray, and sing songs of praise. But many parents are intimidated by the thought of leading these elements with their children, and consequently family worship never gets off the ground in their homes. The foundational truths for Family Worship series by my friend Kelsey Jerkovich was written with the parents who are new to family worship in mind. Each entry is designed to be an all in one tool that includes a scripture reading, a brief teaching, prayer, song, and him verse, and a theology question and answer. These elements are not simply an aid to parents, but they are written to be read to your children. Whether you are new to family worship or are seasoned in the practice, the series will help you lead your family to worship the living God. The first three volumes are available now. You can go to press.founders.org and get your copies today. Last fall, Founders relaunched the online Founders Study Center. This is a place where pastors and laymen alike can access wonderful courses on Bible education, church practice, theology, subjects like political theology, all very inexpensively. You can use these in small groups or for your own private devotional study. I encourage you to go to study.founders.org and check it out. I think one thing that when men are looking for elder qualified men to come alongside them and serve them, one trap that is easy to fall into is a guy who is doctrinally savvy. He knows reform doctrine, he knows his Bible pretty well, and you think automatically like, oh, this is a guy because he's probably able to teach and he can take some of the load off and he's got to have some things right and some things straight. But man, that's just one piece. One piece of what it takes to be an elder. If he's not leading his family well, if he's not passionate about the health and the unity of the church, if he's not humble, man humility is such a massive thing. If he's missing those pieces, then he's putting a guy who is doctrinally knowledgeable into a position of authority is incredibly dangerous for the church. I think it's just a caution to I know we understand how healthy a church, how much more healthy a church can be when it has a multiplicity of elders and how much of a load that can take off and pastor when he's got other brothers with him helping to make decisions. But sometimes you can just buy more problems for yourself if you just put a guy in who you think is qualified simply because he has doctrinal knowledge. That's absolutely true. And those qualifications in first 73 and Titus Warner, therefore a reason and hospitable. Love people. Love people. So the last thing you want is a guy who loves to read books and hates people. It's going to be around people or gets put out with people too quickly. That can be deadly. It's not unique to us, I don't think. But you look at the character of a man, the competency of a man, and the calling of a man. And the three Cs served us well. And over the years we added a fourth when chemistry does he fit in does he have something of our DNA in terms of culture and understanding what a church is supposed to be and how we move forward. Early on, you know, we had some reform guys show up and they were just ticked off that we weren't using the trendy himnal. And that we weren't doing this and offered to bias, trendy to him, you know, just all kind of stuff because they wanted to see the kind of church they wanted. And they weren't really loving people where they were who were real God fearing people genuine Christians. They said, been taught. They need to be taught. And if you if you're not patient to teach people and you're not willing to help lead them to see the things that God's taught you. So that they can begin to make decisions on the basis of what God has shown them. You can do a lot of damage to a church. individuals. Yeah, and I have seen it where a pastor is eager to have other men serve with him, and so sometimes he'll put up blinders and not see the weak spots or the points that need help, need correction in a man who would serve as an elder. So it's just a caution there. When you look at raising men up within the church to become elders and teach them and you do Bible studies within read books together with them, at what point do you think yeah maybe I should move to the next step with this brother, have them teach a Sunday school class or maybe lead a Wednesday night prayer service or maybe counsel this brother who needs some counseling. At what point do you start to kind of then kind of up the up the family with them? Yeah, I mean it varies. I mean some guys you just see it in them and the older that I've gotten the I think a little bit more adept at become at seeing things earlier. In fact I used to get put out with an older pastor who would see things far more quickly than I did and he said, man you're spending way too much time with this guy. I can tell you it's not going to work out and I just thought well you just don't have faith and you know five years later I'm thinking why didn't I listen to you? Because what he needed was not more me. What he needed was the ordinary means of gracey, what an accessing appropriately. So putting them in situations that are pretty safe like hospital visits going with you or sitting in on counseling sessions just letting them hear and then debriefing with them, letting them ask questions of you in a safe way helping them to prepare a Sunday school lesson or a Wednesday night Bible study in our context you know it's pretty informal and then giving them opportunity to do that and then giving them feedback for that. One of the things that have been really helpful for us and I can't remember when we started but many many years ago I think were we doing this when you came having guys teach in the summer preach on Sunday nights? I think that's been going on for a long time and so we ask 13 guys over the course of 13 weeks in the summer to preach on Sunday nights and the congregation does look these are guys that don't preach a lot and so they're not going to be you know maybe what you expect from your normal elders who regularly preach and this is a way to help them to train them so be patient with them and pray for them and encourage them and the congregation has been great about that but give them an opportunity to sign them something help them learn how to deal with that text give them resources and work with them so that you know when they're standing up you're not just turning them loose to abuse the congregation but they actually have something that can be helpful to the congregation and then evaluate it so on Sunday nights in the summer we have different men preach and then right after the service we will go and set up with all the men that have been asked to preach in the elders and maybe some others and just evaluate giving feedback how did you prepare you know how did you feel about the preparation about the delivery and and then ask for the elders to just provide some constructive criticism one of the best things for elders and the whole church is to learn how to give criticism and to learn how to take criticism and we've had times I think probably since you've been here where it just got a little dicey in those meetings you know like people were crumbling under the criticism or people being harsh with the criticism are hesitant with the criticism and and actually what the elder encouraged the elder look if I'd preach that more find something to critique yeah something that could be done every sermon has something that could have been done better just say it yeah so that we can demonstrate how to say it nobody's above it and how to receive it that okay you know you're you're right about that you don't have to be defensive about that and that kind of culture among men man it goes a long way to clearing the ground and getting further down the road faster yeah and not all those men who we asked to preach in the Sunday evening summer services not all of them feel a cult in ministry not all of them will ever preach again but giving opportunities for to for them to kind of test that out see if they have the ability that skill or even that internal understanding that yeah this is something that I want to pursue more and it has really been something of a force multiplier as well that some of those men have become elders I'm an example of that some of those men have over the years become elders some of them have been raised up and they want to pursue pastoral ministry in the future and then it also just in some of them have been become deacons and it also just kind of you know those who have biblical understanding those who have their lives in order who are pursuing Christ it also gives a congregation a chance to see like oh here's one who's who's not an elder not a deacon but just a faithful Christian and studying the word and wants to share the word and gives elders opportunity to say you know this is a good brother why don't you disciple with this one or why don't you help to serve in this area so it really has been something of a force multiplier even in our church and I foresee it having major benefits this one that's one of the things that's happening with founder seminary as we bring students in and as they kind of they become members in the church and they get used to the life of the church they'd be they're asked to serve more you know there will be there are opportunities for them to sit in with elders in counseling sessions and just listen and debrief afterwards later on in their education they're able to sit in on elders meetings and kind of see how that operates and so that's one of the wonderful benefits of founder seminary as well but you know you don't have to have a seminary attached to your church to start doing those things. Absolutely and one of the benefits one of the things that is a risen from what you just described is we now have a group of about was it 15 guys or so gifted brothers that have demonstrated their ability to you know stand up and preach a sermon they might not have preached 20 sermons but they preached one and so we've just made that available to churches in southwest Florida we sent out emails and notice is look if if you wake up Sunday morning you're sick and you don't have anybody to preach give us a call you know we at our expense that you won't cost the church a dime or if you just your pastor needs a break you know call us and we can supply you with men that our congregation has sat under and men that the elders here can commend as gifted preachers of God's word who will come and serve your congregation and I don't I don't know how many times we've had the privilege of doing that but it's happening all the time it seems like just about every other week we have one of our men out preaching filled with pulp it somewhere and not an elder not an elder yeah sometimes they are sometimes they're deacons but sometimes they're just they're just church members right okay so that's one of the ways you can kind of raise up men within the church to perhaps serve as elders and even if they don't become elders like you said sometimes you're qualified you got the competencies you got the character but perhaps this is just not the right church for you to serve in leadership but it's still that doesn't mean that it's not the right church for you to do the things that elders do in terms of discipling and counseling and leading Bible studies and things like that so so those are all useful in raising up just men to to be Christians and to do the work of the ministry in the church but what about you know what does it look like for a church who then has gone perhaps from unhealthy elder ship or a singular elder ship to a plurality of elders in their to it's a healthy elder ship what do they I mean what are some of the most helpful ways in which elders kind of interact with each other make decisions and meetings and things like that what have you seen in your experience yeah well I can tell you there's no substitute for when an elder ship is grappling with something and they get clarity on the issue and a lot of times we disagree or we're not able to come to a meeting of the minds because we just don't see it the same way so praying for clarity and when God gives clarity that's wonderful and then when you have unity after clarity it's like you know put the pedal to the metal on that deal I mean because we're going forward we all see this and we want to get this in front of the congregation in the best possible way and we've been through that recently you know for like a two-year deal trying to it's been more than that but the last two years particularly what are we going to do what are we going to do how can we how can we shepherd and steward as well when God gave us clarity and unity it's like okay we got to bring the congregation in and just let them kind of see in a brief overview way what we've been going through what we see and what we're recommending and call the church now we're in a period of seven months of giving specific days to prayer and fasting about our future and and that's that's one classic example of that but there needs to be a deferential spirit that doesn't cow-tow and isn't intimidated and one of the things that our elders have done really well I mean it's it I've been around here a long time you know and so I don't but I get one vote I get one vote in the eldership and I think that is a good thing and I don't mind speaking forcefully on things I believe strongly about as long as the other elders understand give me pushback you know I'm not infallible and so you know having been here as long as I've been here knowing some of the temptations that just go with everybody wanting to be deferential to me as the old guy you know I get that and I appreciate that but that can become unhealthy to the church if it's like you don't want to go get some you know we're not going to do it I mean yeah there is such a thing as a monopiscopacy and even Baptist elder led churches you can have a plurality of elders but even so then you've got the pastor who's only got one vote everyone understands he's got one vote but no one's going to vote against what the pastor says you know it's a that's an incredibly I think unhealthy unhelpful thing for a church and on the other hand though it's unrealistic and I don't think it's healthy to pretend like there's not something there I mean I could say you know I'm just one of the elders it doesn't matter I mean but I've been here longer and the people are going to just listen to me differently. than they will to a young elder. I mean, it's, you might not like it, and you may think it's not right, but it's just inevitable. And so I've got to steward that well. And the new elder, the young elder's got to steward that well too, and recognize, okay, I'm not gonna take this as a personal offense and slight. This is just another opportunity to teach and to educate. And I think it's been good for me to lose votes, which I've done quite a few, maybe things that aren't too significant, but some, maybe like the live stream issue, you know, and whether we should upgrade our live stream, we have Jankety live stream, and we want it Jankety, because we don't want it to be something that people become accustomed to, and they can say, oh, this is great, we've had multiple opportunities to upgrade our live stream. And we just refuse to do it, and I've been on record as a being against live stream for a long time, but I've been one over now, so I don't speak against it too much. - Yeah, it's just, it's painful to watch, but it's clear enough and good enough that you can benefit from it. - That's right, you know, we would, but it's not like being there, and nobody's gonna accuse you of going to church online when you watch our live stream, and that's by design. - Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly, as Paul says, God has given gifts to the church in pastors and in teachers, elders are a gift, and he also says, in 1 Timothy 3, that it is a noble task as an elder, and so it's something that we need to take seriously, and something that I think that churches always ought to be considering and grappling with, particularly elders. And if you aspire to the office of an elder, that's a great thing, Paul says, talk to your pastor, talk to your elders about that, when ask them for criticism, ask them to be very honest with you and receive that criticism well. Don't go storm off in a huff of the same, this is not the right time, or perhaps you're not the right person for this. But just pray for your elders, pray that the Lord would raise up more elders, the Lord would give the elders in your church unity. And if, like anything, if you have questions about this issue, this is something that we deal with every day, pretty much, we'd be happy to talk with you, so you can shoot us an email or call into the office and we'd be happy to set up a time to talk. But I hope this has been a helpful conversation for you, if it has been helpful for you, just like and subscribe, and you can also share all the different platforms that you listen to your podcasts, and we will see you next time.