Try Not to Laugh with Ayo Edebiri and Don Cheadle

Ayo, your parents were pretty on board with you. Were you always kind of the quirky kid? Well, obviously, in my memories, I'm like deeply normal. And then my cousins are always like, oh, you're so funny and weird. And I'm like, okay, well, how funny? This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Well, everybody, welcome to IMO in New York. It's a special episode because I'm by myself. My big brother, Craig, isn't usually here. Yeah, I was wondering where Craig was, I guess. You know, traveling, everything. It's not. He's a busy guy. He's a busy guy, busy guy. But I'm here and we're in New York because I just saw an amazing production of Proof on Broadway. And we're going to talk about that here today with a couple of special guests. We have a couple of special people here who are the reasons why this play is so amazing. Don and Ayo, it's good to have you here. Thank you. For those of you who don't know Higher Ground, Barack and I, we were also co-producing this amazing production. And we are just thrilled to be a part of it because this version of the play is exactly the kind of stuff that Barack and I want to be involved with. Telling stories that are reimagined in ways that have an impact. So we are thrilled. But I have to formally introduce you all to the IMO audience. So I'm just going to read your quick bios just in case you don't know who you are. Oh, appreciate it. Okay. We have Don Cheadle. The one and only is one of Hollywood's most versatile and enduring talents. I like that. This is my friend, so I know you're a little embarrassed. Perhaps best known for his performances in the film Hollywood. He's a great actor. He's a great actor. He's a great actor. He's in the film's Devil in a Blue Dress, which I just re-watched a couple of days ago. Gosh, I also just re-watched it a couple of days ago. It's a good movie, right? It's so good. Miles, you just turned into another dude. Yeah. I guess that's your job. Yes, Mouse, yeah. He's just a thing. Yeah, Mouse. But also Boogie Nights, Traffic, and Hotel Rwanda that earned you an Academy Award nomination. Don is an actor, producer, and activist who's worked on a lot of movies and his work on and off screen reflects a deep commitment to storytelling that matters. Thank you. And Ayo, my little friend here, is one of the most exciting young talents in Hollywood. Let's go. I know, whose groundbreaking role as Sidney in FX's acclaimed series The Bear earned her an Emmy, a Golden Globe, and virtually every other major television award in a single sweep. Damn, girl. She is an actress, writer, director, and comedian whose meteoric rise has made her one of the most sought-after voices of her generation. How about that? Yeah, what do we do with that? What do you do with that? What do I do with that? I don't know. Just kind of make it to. What day of the week is it? We don't know. We already decided that. We don't know. We don't know. I've been calling it one day, but you guys didn't vibe that too much. No. We missed it. Whatever you mean. I'm not offended by that. No, I get it. I'm not just fine. Clear. But there's something there. I think if it was written, it feels like a New Yorker comic joke. You know what I mean? Yeah, it feels like that sort of vibe. Because it would be a Monday, but then with the M off and then one day. Already visualizing it, I'm laughing. There's a smile on my face. YouTube. I'm feeling lighter. Clearly connected already. What did you know each other before, Proof? No. Because you have like, you really have known each other forever. No. Which works really well. Really well for this play. No, we did not. I mean, we'd met, you know, but we hadn't spent any real time with each other. And for me, because it predates me, you were talking about this play with Tommy and with Mike, you know, before I was on board. Tommy Kail. Tommy Kail, director. Mike Bosner. Mike Bosner. Producer. Lead producer. Yeah. And by the time I came into it and knew Io was going to be playing Catherine, I was so excited about it. When we first met, you know, not to be trite, but it just felt like, like what you're saying. It did feel like we'd known each other a long time. And I felt instantly paternal. I felt, you know, my daughter's very close to her age. And I just, yeah, yeah. So it's just right off the bat. And then once we started working and realized that we worked in a similar way and that we had similar ideas about the approach to the material and it just all kicked off and kept going. Did you have, did you have someone in mind? Did you, were you thinking of Don as you were thinking about this re-imagined version of the play? I think, well, Don's name, I'm not, I mean, I think it was the first one that we came up with. I think also sometimes, I don't know, maybe this is just me, but I always do sort of like exercises of like, oh, who could be my parent? You know, who would be like the dream person? And I think a part of it is, you know, obviously vibe and all those things. But just people who you really admire and whose work you really love. And yeah, Don's sort of like always been on my eternal list. And it was like the first name that both Tommy and I had said, we were like, okay, let's go away and come up with names. And then it was like, well, I mean, but I wasn't sure as I think I do often with people that I revere. I was like, I don't even know if he'd be interested in this. If he knows who either of us is, like, I don't know. And the fact that he said yes was just so, it was just a dream. But then again, you know, meeting, I think sometimes it can be really hard to meet your heroes. And, you know, I think we've all had experiences where you walk away and you're like, okay, well, that's information that I have now. And I mean, you know, he's your friend, but like there is just such a graciousness, but also, and I'm really averting eye contact. I get it. Look at him in the eye. When, for me, it's always really heartening. I love my job. I would like to do it for as long as possible. And when I meet people who I really admire and revere, and I see that to them, they are still on the first day. Like they are still so in communication with their inner child and with their curiosity and with their drive. Are you calling down a big baby? Huge. Wow. Nice extraction. You got there. You got there very deftly. Just really childish and sort of well-learned. No, but just, you know, like there's still a curiosity and a hunger and like, I don't know. It's, there's no, not that there, it's like not a dissatisfaction, but you know what I mean? Yes, there is a dissatisfaction. You're just not content. He's never content. Yeah. Always questioning. Always searching. And that's a very, that's a very similar journey that I think we're both on. Well, let's, let's give our listeners, our audience a sense of what Proof is about because it's a revival. It opened in 2000. Yes. Playwright is David Auburn. Tony winner, Pulitzer Prize winning play. And not everybody is familiar with Proof. Can you guys talk about premise and why this reimagined version is so powerful? Well, the play, according to David, or like to quote David, when he describes it, because often people ask, you know, what is it about? And he says at its core, it's a family drama. And at the center of it is Catherine, who I play, who is 25. And maybe I'll try to do a spoiler free version, but it explores the relationships between herself and her father, who was, who was a genius, but troubled mathematician and professor, her sister, who they all live in Chicago, who now lives in New York and comes back home. And one of her father's protégés, a student named Hal. And yeah, it goes through time. It goes through their relationships. And one of the questions at the center of it is, I don't know, there's a lot of different questions, but legacy and truth. Yeah, those are big themes in it. I don't know. Madness, genius, you know, where is the line? How do we straddle it? How does it look like? What does it look like? What does success look like? What does. Sisterhood. Sisterhood look like? In a huge way. Trust. Responsibility, trust. It's a big play. Yeah. It's a big play. And the original play was, it was written for, for a white cast, a white family. And Tommy Kail and Mike decided, and was it intentional to revive it with a black family? Did you all have those discussions? I think Tommy, you know, wanted to, I think Tommy and David had entered a conversation with Mike at some point and they decided that they wanted Catherine to be Ayo. So once they decided that, they decided, It sort of dictated who the family would be in some ways. um both Kara and Jin uh Kara Young and Jin Ha who are also in the play with us Kara plays uh your sister my sister love Kara for those of you who love Broadway she was in Purpose amazing in that yes she is a living legend it is really cool to be I don't know to work with her and know her and love her and just be like I'm watching like the I know what I'm watching it's very cool and then Jin Ha plays Hal who's amazing actor as well um but they're I call them our Broadway doulas because they're a little bit more versed than us and um both of them were like it feels almost like working working on a new play yeah uh the way that we have been rehearsing and workshopping with each other it which is really exciting it's a bit different from film and tv because with this with theater it's all about the process that's kind of all you have you have all this rehearsal time you're so funny I was looking at it did you see you too you too well let's talk more about the the process it's like dad don't do that yeah well you want to drink a bug I had to get it he's got from the side that was amazing I mean that's a specialty of IMO we try to you're trying to get right exactly exactly I'm sure another one will get in there somehow you're trying to get right exactly exactly I'm sure another one will get in there somehow but let's talk a bit about the fact that um for both of you this is your I'm not scared of a bug do you want new water I'm cool you know don't like that do you have any bugs we eat a year he's one with the earth that's right he understands that I don't know actually how many bugs we eat a year and I have no interest in knowing you know I'm sure you know when you probably it's just no telling you know people like Don who are eating probably a thousand bugs a year and me who's eating none who's taking the bug out of the earth their water. That's right. But we digress. We digress. It's better than a dry bug. But we don't know because Ayo and I, we do not try bugs. No, we don't. We'll get that info flying in. That's good. But anyway, this is both of your debut on Broadway. So why now? Especially Don, for you, old man. Cool, cool. I'll take that. Yeah, that one was for you, the old man. Yeah, I figured that out. This is the love I get from the Obamas on the regular. You should be so lucky. I feel very blessed. For me, it was again, timing. It was the right auspices. It was getting to work with Ayo. Having the opportunity to work with Tommy. Obviously, very experienced and really good director. And it's just somehow worked out. I'd been playing around with the idea for a couple years and trying to work on a couple different things and developing things and just the time never really presented itself to have that much unencumbered time to carve out to do it. But this had all the reasons to say yes for me. And you guys are both theater nerds. Deep down, you in particular, Don, you came out of theater. That was your first love. Can you talk a bit about that journey? I was doing plays in Ayo was too in elementary school and all throughout high school and then I graduated and went to California Institute of the Arts and studied theater there and did that for four years and did a zillion plays there. And then when I graduated, I did regional theater at the Guthrie and at Goodman and the Public and Mixed Blood and the Twin Cities. And I've just was something I always kept up. And 25 years ago, as you mentioned, I did Top Dog, Underdog when this play opened. Proof actually opened on Broadway and Bridget, my wife, was telling me about it. So it's been something that that was the last time I've been on stage. But I always knew it was in the offing somewhere and just everything had to come together and it kind of did. I mean, it's funny because I met Kara on the set of I Love Boosters, which comes out next month. And she didn't know who she was talking to because I have all these prosthetics. So I'm for this thing. And I said, oh, I'm Don Cheadle. She's like, what? But I was talking about, oh, I've got this play reading coming up. I've got this reading offer to do Proof and I.O. Adebri's going to be doing it. I'm really excited about it. And it's weird how things come together. And I don't know if I'm going to do it, but I'm going to do the reading and the timing. And we're just talking about all this kismet stuff and her phone dings and she looks at it and she looks at me and turns the phone to me and it said, you have an offer to. Oh my God. Read Proof. We were like, oh, well, I guess we're supposed to do this. Yeah. Steven Spielberg told me that who gets cast is who's supposed to be cast, which is why he never worries about whether somebody can do it or not. Because it's like, it happens when it happens. The right person does it at the right time. Because scheduling and getting this stuff right is a big part of who does what when in this business. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully. When I bought my first home, I played it very safe. On paper, it made sense. Mish, what is something you wish you knew when you were buying your first home? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be repetitive, but hearing you talk, it's the same thing. I mean, I think over the course of our lives before going into the White House, we bought our first condominium and played it conservative, and we bought our first home. Now, my husband wouldn't say that we were being conservative, but it is true that there's, you know, I think there's a benefit to being somewhat conservative because you don't want to grow up, as our dad said, house poor. Right. And I think we worry a lot about that because that was sort of the theory of working class folks. But the truth is, is that you want to get the, I wish I had known that getting the most for your dollar was actually the better strategy. Yeah. Yeah. So, what advice would you give young people today as they approach bigger and bigger life choices, like purchasing their first home? Well, I would say, talk to people who've been in your shoes. You know, I think our parents were never homeowners, right? So, we didn't really have them as a guide. So, I would say to young people, if you don't come from a home-owning background, ask questions. You know, if you're buying a home, you're going to need a bank. You should sit down with someone who has an expertise to help walk you through the process and help you think about how much you should be investing, how much you should be saving, so that you're not going in blind. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say, while it feels stressful, you'll be very happy with the result. How do you think our childhood prepared us for making such big decisions, such as home ownership? I think with kids, you let them start practicing with the small decisions, right? You can't raise kids to not ever make decisions and think they'll be ready for the big decisions. So, what our mom and dad, I think, did a good job with is that they gave us responsibility early on. And let us choose, you know, setting your own alarm clock and getting yourself up, making the decision about what you were going to wear every day, deciding how you were going to pace how to do your homework and, you know, what you valued. You know, I think our parents forced us to make small decisions first so that we grew into the bigger decisions. Oh, exactly. Fortunately, there are resources available for all those first-time homebuyers out there right now. Progressive is offering real support as a first-time homebuyer navigates what can feel like a pretty formidable process. For example, Progressive's UpPayment program is part of their Open the House initiative, a multi-year commitment to making home ownership a reality for more people. That's because Progressive believes that strengthening communities starts with opening doors and helping more people feel prepared to take that step. As part of that effort, Progressive is expanding their UpPayment program in 2026, offering down payment assistance of up to $13,500 each to at least 200 eligible first-time homebuyers. And since 2024, Progressive has committed more than $16 million toward making home ownership feel more achievable. Learn more about the UpPayment program and Progressive's commitment to first-time homebuyers at Progressive.com slash Open the House where homebuyers can discover more about housing challenges and access resources and support to empower them in their housing journey. I mean, we almost didn't know if you were working up to, what, two days before you came to rehearsal? Yeah. What were you working on? I was finishing the last season of Bear. Okay, yeah. And both Eben and I previously had been clear. to do the shows at Evans Now and Dog Day and I got cleared to do this and then the just again schedules and a lot of math that's like a pretty big cast so it ended up pushing our filming and yeah I filmed like up till two days before and I got to rap and then I had to wait till the end of that day so I got one day to pack and go back home and dump all my stuff and then get all my winter things and then I came out here and then I showed up to rehearsal and I was like hello and theater you know look I love theater I love all stage plays musicals you name it there's just something about being in community with people and watching it's powerful it's deeply deeply powerful people right there doing their thing and I'm kind of biased I do think that actors who have had theater experience can tell and it seems like the lines are a lot less blurred now I mean absolutely before it was like if you did TV and film that's what you did theater people did theater people they did the theater stuff and now I don't know if it's me but it just feels like everybody's doing a little bit of everything you know George Clooney just did Broadway Taraji's up there now I mean we could go on and on can you guys talk about that trend how does that feel for you guys in the business I'm curious from your end because I feel like because you're old you've been around you're so old you've basically been acting since you were a kid since the dawn of time dawn of time yeah and so I guess for you when Jesus wore sandals yeah yeah yeah I feel like my career has come into fruition your first role obviously yeah sort of you were the original Joseph and the Tentacolor Dreamcoat yeah the original Joseph yeah but like I think because my career has kind of been blown up in this way after COVID I think also that is a huge part of it where I'm like well everything is soup like everything has sort of been a bit strange and we're like kind of figuring our way back to normal you built your career in strange yeah in many ways in so many ways I have come out of the strange yeah but you know I've always been an early adopter in about whatever you know and I was I was doing a show on Showtime very early yes you know and so I was like oh what's the streaming thing about let's try that yeah and so and I've just always been I go where the material is yeah and you know so many writers flocked to TV because they were now they were unable to do what they wanted to do in film because films started becoming just about tentpole stuff and I've been in a bunch of and you know those kinds of yeah I didn't even mention your Marvel Oceans it's all good it's fine it's like yeah you did you did that you can do it now actually they had that in the intro and I was like can you take that out oh you took it out yeah okay so that I was like why didn't we talk about any of this because all of her stuff was so heady and lofty and incredible and I was like we're gonna talk about me in a suit but I can't no wait I cannot with that but no no no hate on the Marvel stuff thank you pays the bill allows you to do the theater stuff yo you know yeah pays for the barn that's like my dad's like big I wish you didn't know so much about me Michelle it's beautiful you're beautiful moving on to quote Methuselah no look I think that theater it's never left my blood it's never not been something I've wanted to get back to at some time in some way and I think you know another thing that's playing on this is unfortunately the economics you know of what it takes to mount a production yep and I feel you know kind of conflicted sometimes about the people that we need to put in these plays to actually get the budgets for the plays and that and to recoup and all of that and there's jobbing actors that have been out here you know doing it for a long time that are like kind of getting squeezed out often when these kinds of casting opportunities happen so I it's it cuts both ways for me a little bit because I I love the opportunity and want to come here and do it and I really a big part of also wanting to do this play was really to mm-hmm I think that's it's Catherine's play it's Ayo's play and I wanted to support her and support that journey and you know I'm the smallest part in it but I really wanted to come and like well don't tell people that pop the kids up he's in it a lot y'all I'm in it a lot they're just in it a lot more but but I do think that you know I understand that rub but I think that the way audiences think I mean we're trying to get people off their phones and into the theater and I think I feel like every time it happens also I don't know maybe that's my own sort of naivete or whatever but like when it happens when you experience it everybody's like so grateful for it absolutely it's like wow and even to the effect of like the type of work that's made I feel like often the things that come out of or pierce through cultural conversation are often so strange or feature a cast where you don't really know that many people maybe you saw one person whose name you knew but everybody else you don't know you know there's there's the weird things there's the strange things but then that doesn't end up being the takeaway from like a structural industry standpoint like the takeaway isn't like oh let's do more shows with unknown cast it's like we really like cooking stuff in Chicago so not everything you know it's like well yeah and so I don't know but I think you guys lending your talents to theater is helping because it's gonna put people in seats it's gonna you know reinvigorate things hopefully I hope so yeah you know at this point I don't care why people come to the theater I just want them to come and if they come because it's like oh I know Don and Io I get to see them up close you guys don't have the schedules and the time to do theater always so if you can get somebody hooked then you guys go off I mean I like the way some productions are doing it a production gets established with a star and then you move somebody else in it and then people now know that this play on its own without the star power is something that we want to see we want our kids to be in those seats we want you know our communities to be back to that live kind of so that's true I think it's a it's a hook it's an important hook I don't you know I don't think this is this is a forever hook I think that the talent on Broadway is unbelievable some of the best talent in the business is right here in this city on these streets I mean what it takes to show up every day and I want to physically I want to talk about that for a bit like how you I want our audience to understand what does it take to prepare I mean how did you guys approach this play your roles you know I'm going to tease Don again I mean when I saw you I went with Barack Barack and I had a date night it's proof and we were like dang Don got a dad bod it's like where did that it's like the last time I saw you you were cut up I thought I am what are you talking about and I know you are that's the thing that's the power of your acting because I swear to God I was like I expected when I saw you backstage no you didn't my point was when I saw you backstage I was like I was almost like oh great okay it's still in there I was sitting there thinking when did he gain all that weight acting acting so you weren't wearing anything you just turned into a dad bod yeah I just pushed my stomach out and got bullied you have a dad was it the costume it's true but anyway we digress I don't think this is a digression I think we've now landed on the theme of this podcast this is really what it's about that's why we have you in the center yeah you're in the hot seat you're in the hot seat no doubt but talk about your preparation I mean I like physically I started doing vocal training like for the year before because also I found myself losing my voice during awards season it's just so because you were accepting so many speeches just because I don't know how to stop talking to people and I was like I know that I want to do a play and then I knew that it was going to be this play and so I really wanted to get ready and that required just a lot of learning about my instrument things that also I think I was in practice with but not consciously when I was doing stand up on the regular and then since doing a lot more TV and film it's just a muscle you don't have to use I don't have to reach the back of the room when I'm mic'd you know like so that was like definitely a part of it and I think when we knew that it was going to happen we would talk about the script and sort of read it I don't know when you like had started actively memorizing but I just had tried to get it into my bones as much as possible and then when I knew I wanted to start earlier and then Bear ended up happening so I would just read it on set if I didn't have like a crazy amount of lines And, um, I remember, uh, lines. and Will Poulter I would like pull them a lot because Eben also was working on his own stuff for Dog Day so we would kind of be in little corners just like reading and then picking up our sides and being like do we know our actual job for today and yeah and there's things where it's like Catherine has these long passages of things where that is like memorized or things that so that was the first stuff that I tried to tackle the stuff where I'm like well this is language that's like in her bones so it should be the first stuff that's in mine and then when you say it was memorized are there parts of the play that are more improvised like when she recites something that she oh got it but like I'm Catherine yes that's right acting is so weird it's a trip yeah it's like what do you mean from memory but it's her memory yeah it's her memory so I was like well that has to be something that right and then that you can't change that every what are things that I know yeah sorry like long winded no no no I mean it's it's powerful and because I'm I'm thinking about these conversations with young people listening and young people that are interested in this kind of stuff because you guys all talked about we all have our theater experience when we were young I mean I was in the operetta workshop I mean there's there's always you know I had an aunt that ran the community theater I mean we all have that piece of well we I used to like improv when I was a little kid what yeah yeah I did you know it's like theater training prepares you for a lot more than acting a thousand percent I mean I think it plays a role in my comfort level public speaking in public speaking in the way I interact with people you know to just adapt it's storytelling I mean really what you get adept at or what you hopefully you know one of the biggest muscles you're flexing is just being a storyteller and there's not any business that you can even name that doesn't have as one of its components what's the story that I'm telling about this job what's the story that I'm telling about this business what's the story that this industry has so it is applicable to so many different so many different things and it teaches you how to play well with others and it teaches you you know that you're not the center of the universe and you know you need to be you know malleable and there's give and take and the strongest thing that you can be I think is a as a performer is a listener and you know be able to to reflect back what you hear and be in conversation and I think that's all of those skills are very important to just manage life yeah I think also when I first like realized that maybe this is something that I wanted to do a big fear that I had because both of my parents are not in the industry and we similarly it's like I have a god mom who went to the first black AME church and would do a Christmas program and she was in church basement an opera singer very like was writing church plays you know that sort of thing but that was pretty much our purview of the whole thing it didn't go much further than that I don't even think I realized writing was a job you could have I thought that there were actors and directors like I didn't I didn't realize that people wrote the scripts that were different from the people who said them and the guy you know and like Spike Lee like I didn't I didn't really know that and I think I sometimes can forget because I'm like I get sick of the sound of my own voice that it can be helpful to hear those more granular granular parts of things and the more like practical tactical parts of things and that is what I think I was able to latch on to when I was also like convincing my parents that I would be okay and that I could survive and that actually there's unions and the unions have health insurance because that's what parents how you gonna get health insurance yeah I don't think you're going back here I ain't paying for it you better figure it out they would not but you're you and that this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance a company committed to helping people move forward and live fully the older we get the more we know ourselves right the easier it is to make big decisions and all of that it's always been interesting to me that life requires us to make huge impactful choices at a very young age where to live what to study and of course how or even whether to buy a home Progressive is a company founded on the belief that insurance should do more and they understand there are many hurdles first time home buyers are facing these days that's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing through their Open the House initiative it's all about helping more people take that first step toward home ownership by giving them the knowledge tools and financial support to make it feel more possible since 2024 Progressive has committed more than 16 million dollars toward making the dream of home ownership a reality this includes a three and a half million dollar investment this year towards the up payment program Progressive's down payment assistance program aimed at first time home buyers want to learn more about the up payment program and Progressive's commitment to first time home buyers visit progressive.com slash open the house to find out more about housing challenges and access resources and support to empower them in their housing journey when was the last time your shopping delivery service really delivered I've had days when I'm bouncing between meetings studio time trying to get home before friends come over and then I realized my grocery delivery guy made some creative choices like the time I asked for marinara sauce and they brought me salsa well shipped is different I found that shoppers with shipped are no ordinary shoppers because they know that no order is ordinary they put extraordinary care into what they do shoppers with ship really understand me and my shopping needs 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came and said hey and everybody was acting so weird but they were all like this is crazy huh like this is really weird not really we thought you were going to live in the alley well but yeah I was I was a freak but I guess I was surrounded by other like all my friends we were just all weirdos like and my friend Shlee came actually and the we just were remembering all these like insane things but we were supporting each other in that and I felt like our parents were really supportive of that because you know we were well behaved and we made sure the grades were right and so then yeah if you want to like learn how to play oboe or do improv or Shlee is really obsessed with Michael Jackson at the time and so it was like okay if you want to make videos videos where she's Michael Jackson using like your dad's camcorder and you're figuring out how to edit or whatever, like fine. Um, and so, yeah, when I told my parents that I didn't want to study education anymore and that I wanted to, uh, pursue this, I remember I took them to an IHOP and I was like, I was like, this is going to be the worst moment of my life. Have some more syrup. You know, my dad looked at me and he said, honey, you know, we were there when we raised you, right? And I was like, right. Like those were the people who was like, I wasn't taking the Fung Wah bus unsupervised at 10. It's my mom was taking me because she knew I had this passion and they were taking me to see the urban nutcracker and to see Wicked when it came to Boston. And, you know, my dad was always showing me amazing movies. And I found out actually when I graduated, um, which is like funny thinking about the show and the legacies that we know and we don't know. My dad wanted to study film. He went to Emerson and then his dad found out because this was like analog days. And so, you know, he, he basically was like, yeah, yeah, everything's fine in America. Um, and then a cousin called my grandfather and was like, he's not studying to be a lawyer. He's going to film. And my grandfather came down and was like, cool, you can graduate. Yeah. And then you have to like apply to law school after because your parents are immigrants. Yes. Both of them. Yes. Both of them. My mom's from Barbados and my dad is from Nigeria. Yeah. So they were definitely don't, don't play. No. We sent you here to be a doctor. You know, they have siblings and they, you know, they had things to do and people that help and secure things for. And, um, and I think, yeah, my, it was a cool thing though, where I was like, oh, my dad isn't continuing that cycle and he wants me to do well and, you know, make sure that everything is okay. Um, but he also knows that like, there's no point in, I don't know, this life if, if you don't follow your passions, you know, my father actually, I've said this before. He was the, my dad worked as a stationary fireman, blue collar worker, but my dad was a really gifted artist. I mean, he sculpted, painted, um, got a scholarship to the art Institute. We grew up in Chicago, but he didn't pursue those dreams because, you know, he had to raise a family. He had a, you know, so it's to understand that there was a generation of parents and grandparents who couldn't do this. It wasn't even, it was there in their bones. Um, but then that reminds me, I was going to say my mom was also a frustrated artist. I think, you know, and it was, I had a very, luckily a very similar, you know, sort of perspective from my parents who, you know, my parents drove me to CalArts and drove me home and there was never any question about what I wanted to do. They were like, Oh, are you going to pursue music? Or are you going to pursue acting? Cause those are the two things that you've been passionate about and really want to do. Similarly, you know, you got to do your schoolwork and get your grades and do all that stuff. But they were like, there was no question I was going to college. That wasn't, but they were just like, you can pursue anything you want in college. You're not going to college, but whatever you study, just really study it and be serious about it. And I can remember, you know, when I first started and it was hard and struggling and would be between jobs and calling my mom and saying, I don't know if I made the right choice. And she said, you've been talking about doing this since you were 10 years old. Don't, don't stop now. See, that's just a beautiful thing, you know, to have parents who are rooting you on when it's time to tough. We have a, we have kids that are going to do non-traditional, things. You know, I have a kid that's interested in the business and there's many a call where, you know, cause the business is crazy. And the thing that I, and there are times when she wonders whether in these times when there's so much going on, should she be writing, you know? And the thing I tell her is like, there, there are going to be a lot of people who don't make it through these tough periods. They just, they're, they're just not, situated. And especially when it comes to black voices, black writers, black directors, those of you who can stick in there and be there, we need them. We need you. We're going to need storytellers and people with different perspectives, you know? So I mean, probably your parents were ahead of the curve, both of you guys in thinking that through and understanding the power of having real clear, decent people with good minds of color. In this business and thank God they did. I think that's also why it's important that the proof has been re-imagined for a black family. First of all, so many of us are, you know, there, there's some people out there who don't want to believe that they're black families that are professors and clinical psychiatrists and who are artists and, you know, who are geniuses. And I think it's powerful to have this family not talk about the, the truth of their reality, but just living in it. You know, it's like, we exist in so many different forms with so many different other challenges other than poverty or crime or whatever. Can you guys talk a bit about that? You know, going back to the, the, the David Auburn of it all and, you know, the early conversations that you had with Tommy about it, there was, there's a clear understanding that these themes, these, a lot of these themes are universal, but they do look different for different people. And, you know, what does legacy mean and what we get to leave behind? And, you know, often it does, it is about something financial and in this play, it does center around the house and, you know, who has ownership of that? Who has ownership of dad's work? You know, what do we do with dad's work? What does it mean? You know, to, to, to honor that or to, um, exploit it or, you know, so I think that a lot of these themes, um, work, uh, but when we are talking about things like mental health, something that has traditionally not so much anymore, but I think, you know, has for a long time been like, we just don't talk about that. You know, that's just Uncle Ben. Especially in the black community. Uncle Ben just stays over there. He just has that. Ain't nothing wrong with you, boy. Yeah, you're fine. I know he's in the basement. He's in the basement. Yeah, it's fine. But, you know. Now, don't be there at 4 o'clock. He's just a little funny. He does something weird at 4 o'clock. Just put the TV tray and shut the door and he's fine. And don't look him in the eye. Don't look Uncle Ben in the eye. I don't have an Uncle Ben, just for the record. But the Uncle Ben I'm imagining is bananas. But yeah, so I think that for, for a black family, like I said, we know the things that we brought up to David, as far as we have to use. We have to figure out the word that we're using when the police come. Because this Catherine may not get to be abusive to the police. And us have another scene in the play. So it's like, what are the word choices? What happened? What actually happened? And what's also happening underneath it? What's happening is these two sisters are missing each other. So how do we make? Can, you know, maintain that while also still allowing the play to be what it is. And we're not detouring off into a play about that. That's right. But we also can't act like that's not something that's real. That also means something in Chicago in the 90s. In the 90s, absolutely. Like, so yeah, that's been cool. I think to what you're saying also about this story and the now, it's so funny. It's like, I didn't really consciously think about it until we started doing press. And I was thinking about that. And I'm like, what is that? That being the race aspect that you said? I guess. And I was like, oh, it's because I'm a black woman all the time. I'm not thinking about why this is timely. I'm timely. I'm timeless. We are timeless. We exist. We've always existed. We continue to exist and persist. And so it's like, I don't know. I'm thinking about it always and everything I do. And also at the same time, I'm not. Not thinking about it. You're just living. Because I have to live my life. Because it's like, yeah, we are absolutely all political bodies. Like, right, sure. At the same time, I'm still, you know, I'm a human being. And David, in his writing of this, I mean, it's like one of my favorite things. And I think it's really hard to do as a writer. And he does so brilliantly. Every character is right. And every character is wrong. In the same scene. What was she trying to get? This is the beauty of theater. I mean, yeah, you can do this in a movie, you know. But there is just something different about real people on stage in the audience. Can you talk about that? Because that's one thing we've never had. We've never experienced. It's like, what's it like sitting there? Because sometimes it's very noisy. In a good way. Because people are like murmuring. But that is exactly. Exactly what was going on and what I found, I think I was saying this to you guys, is that there was just a lot of guttural, oh, I mean, people were feeling it. Because I think all, you know, there's so many themes and so many people who were seeing themselves or somebody they knew at some level, you know, that I don't, it didn't, it was, it felt like it was unexpected to the audience. I've had friends who have come in and it's, I'm like, I'm sure you as well. Not that, not funny, haha, but like, they'll be like, hey, why didn't you warn me about like X specific thing? I'm like, oh, like my bad. I'm like, why didn't you tell me it was two sisters? And I'm like, it was my fault. You know, yeah, to that, like that micro or as macro as like you're saying mental health or, you know, an ailing parent. Yeah, a lot of that has come back. People going like, wow, I just went through that. I just went through this or I had to deal with this. And if that had been an all black audience, they would have been talking to you all. Oh, the whole time. They'd be like, well, I don't, who do you think you are, girl? No, we definitely had some of that. I think at one point, there's a scene where I'm taking things out of a backpack. And, uh, yeah, it's also like we have to, sometimes moments will happen and it's like, I just find myself like looking or I'm just like, I just need eyes right now. I just need eyes to stay here. And then I can go back and great. Uh, and a woman I just heard go, oh, uh, orange. And me and Jen were just like, we're here. We're here. We're here. We're still in this moment. We're here. You're Catherine. I'm Hal. I'm Hal. You're Catherine. You're Hal. I'm Catherine. You're Hal. I'm Catherine. I'm Catherine. You're Hal. You're here. Great. And I'm like, okay, what does this mean also for the rest of the show? This is quite early on that an orange appears. And so we're like. What, what is this going to do? You just don't know. Somebody told me that they were sitting in front of two black, behind two black women. And when Karen came on for her second, uh, uh, scene, they were like, oh, here she go. Uh oh. Here she go again. That's why I love us. Yes. I love us. And the beauty of, uh, this, uh, re-imagined revival is that it's going to bring in new audiences. Yes. And I, I, I think that, you know, I mean, that brings life into it. It's a whole nother generation. It's a whole nother community of people who are going to be introduced to David Auburn and his writing and the complexities of, of a script and the, these sets of characters. And that's what you're, you're feeling. And we have a lot of programs that we're supporting and fantastic that the play is supporting to, to do just that, to broaden access, to get students. And at a price point, that's not prohibitive because so much of it is prohibitive when you talk about, you know, these plays, they're so out of reach for some people. The amount of friends that I have, like that I met in college and were born and raised in New York and had never seen a Broadway show because there just wasn't access. They can't afford it. And they didn't go to the right school, be it public or private that had a program that would take them for a day. You know, it's, it's like kind of mind boggling. Uh, so yeah, we just both, I think really had the intention and we're matched in that, uh, with our producers and to try to make accessibility a real practical thing. How do you guys, uh, specifically influence that decision? Skin in the game. Yeah. We're giving up, we're giving money back toward it so that we can support it and having people match it and going out and fundraising around it. And we were, I mean, I was like. In a way that I think was newer for me, maybe you're a little more versed, but I was like, I'm thinking of the people I know who have money and I'm, and I'm figuring out how to write an email or like do a call. And, and I think also just meeting with our sincerity, like that this is something that we really want because I think we've both been beneficiaries of access. And so, uh, some of those programs look like buyout nights that are going to happen, uh, reaching out to different, like. Like schools and nonprofits. And the New York public school system is just. Yes, we partnered with them. Department of Education. You hear that, y'all? So, you know, we're trying. We're still pursuing some organizations for people who are, it's just a barrier, just a price point, it's a barrier. Not just students, but just anyone who can get in there. Anyone, anyone. We are big dog lovers here at IMO. Everyone knows how important dogs are to myself and my sister's family. Pets just do so much for us. Companionship, emotional support, even getting us out of the house more. And when you really love your dog, you want to take the best possible care of them. That's something that Ollie really gets. They're all about that same level of care and attention. This isn't just dog food. It's fresh meals made with high quality ingredients developed by actual chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. From the market to the food market. And the moment you start your subscription, everything is tailored to your dog. 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The community of actors that are supporting each other. I mean, one thing I love hearing from you and Bridget, Don, is in your early days that community of young actors, many of whom are still your friends, you know, who you all, some have made it, some haven't. And what that meant to you and Ayo. I'm curious about whether that, a similar community exists for you. You want to talk a little bit about that? I think we were very lucky. You know, Bridget and I bumped into each other a lot in the early days. We were all trying to get work in L.A. And I graduated from college. when I graduated from CalArts, I graduated with with some, you know, some guys who are my similar types. And we kind of all lived within a block or two of each other, all together, you know, roommates, you know, three sometimes, three at a place, two in a place, but we all kind of lived around each other. And when we would have auditions, we would just, everybody would go. I'd be like, Bruce, I got an audition. Jeff, I got an audition. And we would bum rush the audition together. And I'd go in and then I'd, you know, I'd be coming out and go, wait, can you see my friend? And they're like, what? See him. And then he'd go in and he'd go, hey, one more of us. Can you see one more? And they would say to us, like, you know, if he gets the job, you don't get the job. I was like, yeah, but we get the check. We're trying to keep this money in here. So I got to borrow from him. He's got to borrow from me. We got to pull this bread. So one of us has to get it. So we kind of had that mentality and we were very fortunate to have that because it was not that way for most of the people out there. It was dog eat dog. It was cutthroat. But something about having that kind of comfort also made it that when I think we walked in the room, we weren't like the sweaty, desperate, have to get this thing, which is so off-putting for a lot of, you know, you can, that feels uncomfortable. You want to be around somebody that you're like, I want to be around this person. So we were able to sort of, that community kind of help each other feel that. And then it just kind of spread. All of us were out there trying to do the same thing. And so many of us know each other and knew each other from that time. And, you know, one of my closest friends from that time, his daughter is my goddaughter. And they live, she lives with my kids. They all live together still, you know, in their thirties. And so it's, it was just something that's, that's amazing. I'm still very close with those guys. And I do think it was a rare and fortunate thing. And I feel very lucky that, that we had it. That doesn't sound like the business we hear talk about. It is not, it is not. And now anymore. I mean, when people ask you, I'm sure when people ask me, they're like, I want to act. What can I do? I'm like, I, when I started, you went in a room and talked to human beings. Yeah. I mean, when I started, you went in a room and talked to human beings. And then like in the middle of that starting, it changed. It changed. So what is it now? So these are- You got a camera in the corner and you're doing self-tapes. And sometimes you don't get the whole script or you get, there was supposed to be all these rules that changed around it. Like you couldn't get six pages. The night before to have to memorize and come in. And that kind of, I don't think anyone's obeying that stuff. No, it isn't. They're still doing it. So you're meant to have like a camera set up and a good mic and a backdrop that works. And a quiet place where you can shoot it. And you're expected to, without benefit of notes, without benefit of any insight from anyone who's created this, figure out- You're directing yourself or your friends are directing you. Yeah. You're reading with whoever's available. You are maybe like, if you're not borrowing space from a friend, they're, they've popped up in a, I don't know if they still exist, but it's psychotic. Rooms that you would pay for. Oh yeah. So it's like you're paying to audition. For the right to not get a gig. To not get a gig. You know, it's a lot. Which is just making it a more exclusive experience. Thousand percent. Completely. So the business is changing every day. And now with this insane merger that might happen, it's like there's going to be fewer and fewer places to work. Yeah. We don't, we don't, I think we don't know. So when people ask me what they can do to become an actor, I say, do anything else. And, and if that's going to discourage you, then maybe you shouldn't do it, you know, because it's going to be a slog unless you're, unless you get super, super lucky or just undeniable. So I say work, you know, read plays, write, write, write, you know, do, you don't have to just work when you get a job. You can be working on being a better actor, a better writer on your own all the time. You have an iPhone. You can make a movie. You can, you know, and now there's no barrier to upload it. Me and my friends or my cohort, I guess, that I think about a lot of us did come up generating our own material. When I think about Rachel Sennett, when I think about Quinto and like, you know, that we, yeah, we were, and I mean, we were following them and Donald and people, you know, where it's like, okay, right. Yeah. You make sketches and you post them online or you tweet or, you know, you do funny Instagram. You make videos like you do these things at the same time, though. Those are also the people with like Rachel and I would ride the train and we would swap sets and give each other notes on our sets, you know, and I would go to Quinto and she'd be like, cool. I went to this, you know, I did sets here, here and here. Zach went here, here and here. These rooms are good for this. These rooms are good for that. Like we were doing work in the real world as well as online. And I think exchanging information with each other as well, not wanting to gatekeep from each other because to what you're saying also, like I really was resonating with that. Like, oh, the people that I was friends with and that I connected with and I still feel connected to, I don't think ever felt like that threat of like, I have to be the only one in the room, you know, like I really do believe and there's more friends that I just will not name drop, but I love regularly, but where it's like, we all knew that there was space for each other, especially amongst like Blacks. Black women. I remember like having a conversation and then like in the name drop, but like with Z-Way at a job when she was writing and I was still assisting and she was like, yeah, well, that's like obviously like a trick that they want to play on us to cut each other out. There's space for all of us. And if there isn't, then we make space for each other. Duh. There you go. And I felt like I was like such a little baby writer and I was like, thank God, you know, there's people like that good. And Janelle James was at that same job and it was the same thing. She was like, yeah, they're not going to, no way. You think they're going to get us? No. No. We stay in it. And that is, I think, a real skill. That endurance, that, you know, fortitude that you have to learn. And that's pretty invaluable. I think just as much as talent, sometimes even more. I'm sure you can think of people I can who are, I go, this was the most talented person that I ever knew. This person is great. Can't bust a grape. You know, and when the going gets tough, they back out, which is nice. Not to say that that isn't, you know, valid. And that your feelings can get hurt. Days can be hard and long and confusing. And you can, I mean, it's. And careers are, there are highs and lows. There's highs and lows. And it's a weird thing also when it's like your passion, and especially if it's connected to creativity, but not just that, but when your passion becomes your vocation, when it becomes capital. You know, it's trippy. It's really trippy. Yeah. And so being able to find ways to navigate that, withstand that, have people that you can talk to, even, I mean, we had a day where I was just like, help. Do you remember that? In rehearsal? You were like, oh, yeah. I mean, that's it. That's the job. Some days feel bad. And I was like, oh, okay. That series is going to be something else. Yeah. Yeah. You'll get over it. Yeah. And, you know, I guess I did because I'm here. You did. Well. Having you two, the dynamic duo in this play is, it's really the magic. But the entire cast is magic. And we are just grateful that you guys made the decision to, you know, dip your toe back into the theater lane because it absolutely matters for all of the reasons that we talked about. Before we close, what's, what's next is the question. What's next for you? Good question. I owe you or, oh, or Don, you may have your what next. I mean, we're both here till July. So next is, so let's just, for the, the play runs until. Next is May. July 19th. July 19th. Yeah. Okay. And then there are, there are things, there are things that are supposed to happen afterwards. And, you know. Do you say that because it's like, it could happen, it might not? I say that because some could happen, some might not. Some are definite. Some are definitely happening, but I don't know that I want to happen with them. So, you know. You're so funny. You know, it's like, I don't, it's. Yeah, but it's, it's real. It's real. Because, you know, the one thing. Well, you've also earned the right. Well, look, I think anyone at any time can say what they want to do with their time. And what is valuable for them to do with their time. Because it's the one thing, I don't care how much they pay you, you can't buy. You can't get it back. Yeah. And you don't want to be in a situation where you look back and go, wow, I just wasted eight months of my time or six months of my time, you know. Especially when I'm a little half dead already, right? Yeah, you're old. Yeah, I'm almost out of here. You know, yeah. So, you don't want to like. You got to pick and choose wisely. You don't want to mess that up. I forgot. Yeah, you forgot. I forgot, you were old. I know I was going to bring you back. I'm sorry. I was going to bring you back to this game. Well, no, because he's such a good actor. He was making me think he was young. I know, he was so young. Should I flex again? Yeah. Give him the gun. Show the guns again. Come on. We're fine. We're fine. Okay, no, we're fine. There you go. There you go. But yeah, that's, there's definitely, and surprisingly, more than there have ever been. For me, things lined up for years that if I wanted to actually push go on, that I know I would be booked for a long, long time. So, I'm trying to be strategic and mindful and thoughtful about how I really want to do this. And then there's. life. That's what I'm saying. We are predisposed as actors. you know to have that engine of like i gotta eat i gotta eat eat eat eat it's never gonna it's not gonna be here oh i'm unemployed again well if i don't take this job there's never gonna be another job you know it's easy to get in that you know hamster wheel mindset even though we've done it for so long and you feel like that's i can't logically support that that's true but it could be yeah you know are they gonna find out are they gonna realize that oh no you're actually a bum yeah you're never getting another job so he's an old hollywood prick he's a cheeto he's a bum he's a bum he's been snowing us for years thousands of them he's old i tell you he's old how old is he older than the sun that cheeto he's so talented my friend thank you so yeah we'll see we'll see you one of the six jobs that's coming up or two i'll probably do yeah but i won't talk about them right now okay all right we'll have you back okay yeah we'll talk about them when i'm back yeah what about you little missy what about me i um i am excited to finish this play and then i also have a well i'm the opposite i guess i have some time free for the first time on the acting side in a really long time because bear as jamie leaguers has announced where are we ending and and that's really cool and um scary and exciting uh and yeah and then i'm writing again and i'm working on a few things some have been announced some have not but i'm not gonna do it don't don't i won't you're in secret keeping mode breaking news on imo no won't do it but yeah i'm i'm excited about that and excited to kind of um maybe i i just turned 30 uh and now now you're old now i'm yeah they've kicked me out of young hollywood but uh it's it's an interesting thing like time i think the just past few years have i i really and like friends who are older than me and not even by that much who literally i would be like 28 and they would be like 31 they'd be like be careful you know be careful about your time be careful about your energy and i'd be like i don't believe you and then it's like oh my god there's my body and it's and it's tired and i do need to rest and i also do need to like recuperate in order to generate yeah um like it maybe the reserve was a lot deeper because it was just coming from a place of all this expression that had felt like i was able to do for so long and there's youth i mean there's free oh my god it's like because you're just young you got energy of it i mean it's like now when i stand up i have to stretch like my dog sunny okay because you just can't get up and walk right away so what do we do if i also have to stretch that means you need to take a break great okay so then maybe i do that and maybe some supplements well yeah for sure yeah i i need you to leave me in more stretches yeah oh stretch he's limber well yes he's limber we believe in that's my biggest thing yin yoga yeah big stretch you like morning and night that type of vibe or i need to do more of it but i at least do it like got 90 minute session once a week that's amazing yeah okay yeah great so that's good that's something for me to log and maybe not do for a minute you don't have right right you don't have to do it for 90 minutes no but but this has been making me need to be more physical in a way that's really great yeah like the eight shows a week thing it's like you really can't take it for granted and you can it's a workout yeah i mean that's like a whole other podcast i'm secretly very woo woo and the things that we're talking just about like life and the things that i've learned in the past and the past few years i've i've become really interested in our bodies as like yeah as just like instruments and the things that we are maybe not as connected to in like western society that like that there's i don't know that there's other civilizations i've been existing and doing it for millennia you know and um my father is a cancer survivor and when he was sick he got really into like eastern medicine and um and and really genuinely that's like he's the same and now it's like we both are like so like what's going on with your acupuncturist you know and he is somebody who like i think that was definitely a jolt for him and um i had one image of him you know of my childhood and now he's the one who's like going on jogs and doing his little peloton and he does yoga and all these amazing things and i and i really am like wow you are a lighter happier person yeah than maybe who i grew up with yeah partly because i think you're like in communication with your body in a way that you were not because because you just didn't do that yeah you didn't do that it wasn't a part of a man a black man did you lose something dead under that table can i help you find your keys did you drop something did you help you look for it you you didn't mean to be on the floor black people sometimes don't even like to be on the floor why would i get on the floor why would i do that i didn't put these clothes on to get on the floor that's exactly right i actually really like the idea of i'll never forget moving to la and meeting people where they're like are you grounding and i'm like am i a 13 year old are you talking about and they're like no take your shoes off and feel the earth i'm like i'm good like i'm on it it's like you might as well ask me to eat a bug okay you guys um and um that means the bug has to stay in yes you guys i know that was right he's like i gotta don't worry i'm so buggy oh my god oh my god well anyway you two um it's it's been a delight um i'm proud of you as always love you to death loving you um so completely you this world is is you yeah you got a little catherine in you i remember our first meeting yeah we had about it i was thinking we you know i'm sure i was like because we were like this young girl she's got i got a thing so we just reached out it's like girl what's she up to nothing and she came over to the vineyard and i'm sure you were wondering okay i'm here and she sat down and she was so like yeah and barack and i were like yeah we know that that that girl yes yeah we we know a lot that quirky weird genius um curiosity uh fire all of that you know fearlessness all of that is is what's keeping you going and what is going to fuel you for many many years to come so that you are old person like me and don on the other side of this table will ever be fortunate to get this old no you won't you won't especially if you keep bringing it up like that you ain't gonna make it you ain't gonna make it july that was genuinely also like maybe the most exciting 36 hours of my life because that was also the the day after i threw a first pitch oh oh you had a lot for the red socks well that's great first pitch and did we have lunch did we feed you did we yeah yeah it was really good it was really good it was a really beautiful day yeah yeah well it's good to see you blowing up um you have earned every bit of it i want to make sure that our audience goes to see proof and uh on broadway until july 19th it is an amazing production and to all the young people who are going to be watching this i want to make sure that they're going to benefit from this accessibility program you know we want to hear from you you know young folks who get to see proof want to hear about those conversations that people are having after the show because you can see here you we you you will go in you know if you go with the family member you're all going to be talking for a couple of weeks about it so one of my friends came with actually he came with his mom and dad the night that you guys were there and he was like they were already talking about the play at intermission and then they realized that the were there and he was like and so now it's like connected forever yeah yeah and you never know we might be there at any moment in time let's go we might drop by beautiful because i love broadway yeah exactly so you never know they're coming with notes yeah really perfect it's like for sure yeah for sure but there are no notes you guys have done it up thank you congratulations thanks for being here love you guys are you looking for support in your weight management journey zep bound to zepatide may be able to help zep bound is a great way to get started if you're looking for support in your weight management journey zep bound is a great way to get started if you're looking for support in your weight management journey overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose weight and keep it off. 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