Trust The Scoop: Formula Safety, Sanity, and Support with The Formula Mom, Mallory Whitmore

What up guys, today's guest. Malorie, what more? Is an exciting one. A little preview for you. If you don't know Malorie already, you are about to. And you're about to love her. She is the face behind the formula, mom. The wildly popular Instagram account about all things formula. She's also a mom, an advocate, infant feeding tech, and she's the author of a new book, "Bottle Service" that you can pre-order right now. And that book, "Bottle Service," education and encouragement for guilt, free, and successful formula feeding. I pre-ordered it, of course. But I also, I feel like the conversation we had in this episode reflects the book itself. Like a lot of the episode is her giving us facts. It's going to be clarity for those of you who are understandably really stressed after the recent recall of formula. And there was one a few years ago if you're thinking about potentially buying from overseas. If you're worried about seed oils in formula, if you're feeling shame around it, Malorie does such a great job of educating, but also offering encouragement that so many moms need as they're going through the journey of using formula to feed their wonderful babies. So I hope you guys love this episode, and no matter how you choose to feed your babies, I think you're going to find it really interesting and informative. So let's get into it. Welcome to this news button. Hey, I'm Brittany of Brittany Sheen Sleep. I've got 99 problems, but my kid's sleeping isn't one. Hi guys. As always, we're exciting guests today. I've been a fan when you replied to my DMs. I was like, oh, I got to reply from the formula mom. But we have Malorie went more here. The formula mom. You. Yes. And I do pride myself on being the one in the DMs. So you get a DM. It's great. I'm behind the screen. But yeah, I'm so excited to be here. You did say that people should DM you if they had a podcast. And I was like, I have a podcast. I'll DM her. And you were like, oh, let's do it. I know I always say my husband. I just love when people listen to me. And maybe that's like narcissistic. That's probably why I have a platform on Instagram. But I just, I'm a certified rapper sometimes. So I always appreciate it. And you know who you're talking to. Like both of our full-time jobs is telling people what to do. So are you a firstborn? Are you the eldest daughter? You know, I am, I'm an identical twin. So yes. But I'm technically number two. Like she was five minutes older. So I feel like an eldest daughter in terms of how I operate in the world. But within my family, I take very much of like the middle child sort of peacemaker role. I feel like that's something else we have done. Packers, there's probably something to be said about that. And I think there's like a people pleasing element. Oh, yes. Type of work. Yes. I just want you to be okay. Yeah. But for being as people pleasing as we are, we both chose very fraught controversial areas to work. We sleep in infinite. It's too easy to do something that everyone agrees on. Let's just make our lives. Which a twin who's fighting for the food has the same challenges as the eldest daughter who's okay. And that was me. We had, yeah, we had twin to twin transfusion. And I was the little twin. So yeah, it maybe it made me a little feisty. And that's benefiting me to this day. 100%. You're a born fighter. Which actually that is my first question for you because sometimes I ask this and I'm like, this is not going to be interesting. But in your case, I feel like there must be a cool origin story. Because you don't just become sleep is at least broad for it. Like a focus on formula is so specific. So I am personally curious how to become the formula. Yeah. Sort of by accident and sort of as a passion project. So my first was born in 2016, which is hard to believe at this point. And being the eldest ish daughter that I am. I thought that I knew what was going to happen with our feeding. You know, I took the breastfeeding class. I read the books. I knew when the clinic was, you know, the lactation clinic was at the hospital. I was reading Reddit. I was doing all the things and I was like, okay, so I'm going to be I'm going to be excellent at this. And then my daughter was born in the whole thing fell apart for a variety of reasons related to her needs and my anatomy and my mental health and everything. And so I was like, okay, well, then I'm going to be the best formula feeder. So I went out looking for resources because I wanted to read the books. And I wanted to learn from the experts and see the data. And they're just like, wasn't anything really. And I chopped it up to basically, I'm like, well, you know, I'm postpartum. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. My brain is like half dead. And then we had our son three years later. And I was like, okay, certainly, certainly there's some information out here. Maybe I just didn't find it or maybe it's here now. And there still wasn't. And I was like crazy. And I'm like, I know that I am not the only one who wants supportive evidence based information about how to be successful at formula feeding. Certainly, I can't be the only one. And so then COVID hit and I lost my job and had a lot of time on my hands and my son wasn't infant. And I was like, you know, I'm going to start figuring this out because there's a need here. I'm going to start figuring it out. You know, doing all the reading and learning about the brands and I went through a program at Ohio State University for their infant feeding technician program, learned some there. I did some content writing work for a European formula company learned a lot there and then launch the formula mom. And throughout the years, I had sort of become like the de facto formula mom in our circle. So I get texts from people and they would be like, you don't know me, but Katie said you know about formula. And I was like, I was like, clearly people need this people want this. Yeah. So I launched it and it has I was right that people want it. 100%. That's actually very similar to my origin story. Mine is the fact that there's no information about sleep. There just wasn't the right in my opinion. That is great though. You like, and to your point, the proof of concept, right? It's like your friends are texting you about something. Maybe I could actually this could be a bit this and that's incredible. And I was actually saying that it's fascinating how like in every other sphere, I've even seen like a baby wearing experts. It's like more than one that'll just come a clue. And think about how many people are like teaching consultants and like there's an entire like, you know, La Lache and like all these things. It's like a very, very big. And that's like, I don't definitely know that from my business perspective, it's like 50 50. You might like a regular breastfeed or just a combination. So that is crazy that there wasn't anything out there. We were just kind of like throwing. Hitting physical girl shooting. Yeah, and I think because there wasn't a lot, it gave new moms the impression that it was supposed to be straightforward or it was supposed to be easy. And then if they struggled with it or had questions, that made them feel even worse. About how they were feeding their baby and a lot of them already had grief or disappointment or guilt or shame about breastfeeding and. And so bringing visibility to it has always just been my goal because when we bring it into the light, then people no longer feeling it's something they have to hide. And that's important to me. That is so cool. I love that. And I think like in general, I want to talk a lot about stuff that has happened recently, like both culturally and like recalls over the last few years and stuff. And I think we're even getting into that one like from your perspective because you have so much like not just a knowledge base, but you communicate with moms all the time about this stuff. Like what are like misconceptions that people have? Brown formula use that like. Yeah, there are many, many, many. But I think one thing that I think is really damaging that that parents, it's not even necessarily misconception, but it's incomplete information. And that's the parents tend to get a lot of information about formula risks and they'll get it from their pediatricians office or it'll be hanging up on a poster at their OB's office or it's all over the internet. And they'll say things like breastfeeding or formula feeding increases your risk of your infections by 200% doubles your risk or it lowers your babies IQ by X percent. Like really horrible scary things, right? And people will send me this. I mean, it's kind of like propaganda. People will send us to me and be like, I think it's probably gonna. Yeah, and all of those those comparative risk assessments are all relative risk. So essentially comparing a similar group who've, you know, chosen two different variables against one another. But they very rarely include absolute risk. So they might say something like your baby's twice as likely to get diabetes or something if you formulate. But they don't tell you that that risk has gone from maybe 0.02 to 0.04. So yes, the risk is dealt. Right. But the overall risk is still 99.96% that your baby's not gonna get diabetes no matter how you feed. And so that to me is a big area where there are misconceptions and sort of incomplete information because that's what everybody says they want. They say they want moms to be able to make informed decisions. But unless we give them all the information about how those stats actually work, it's, it's not informed. So that's an area that I try to do a lot of debunking and you know, for some families that that additional risk is meaningful. But for a lot when they realize in context, they're like, oh, I guess that's, that's a risk I'm willing to take, you know, that that minor minor adjustment. Yeah, I'm curious like, why do you think that happens because I find it very fascinating that like generation over and there are certain things like I will correlate it to sleep where like the back to sleep campaign. There was like objective evidence that putting babies we just didn't have the information before we now have the information this is like a direct causal thing. Okay, but formula breastfeeding like my grant like our parents generation. I remember someone very close to me saying that his mom was like shamed for breastfeeding in like 80s because the older generation, especially those with mean so it's like kind of a fancy grandma was like ill. We don't breast so it was like and but then now then I think now we're getting to a better place like slowly, but then it came kind of back the other way that in like 2000s even when we had our because my was 2017 my oldest, it was like yikes. Yeah, why would the pendulum be swinging and why would something like that be in a doctor's office when they know that's like a negligible risk. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that the pendulum has swung significantly and I think probably too far in both directions, you know, no matter if we were in sort of you know for everybody string formula now there's everybody's pressured to breastfeed. You know it's it's interesting with breastfeeding because it's both an individual choice and it's also treated as sort of a public health initiative. And so if I breastfeed it helps my baby you know whatever, but also if all of us breastfeed then xyz outcomes could be better. And so I think that specifically that sort of messaging in doctor's offices and and everything else is from a public health standpoint. And I think sometimes public health communication and and I will tell you I am the biggest proponent public health. But sometimes I think their goal is compliance and they say what you know what's most compelling and not necessarily untrue but what's most compelling in order to to ensure compliance. Right, like we'd rather people do this so we're going to make the sign that says it doubles your risk knowing that it's like a negligible change. What public health and I know I feel like an idiot asking this, but what do we think is going to be better for like the world of like well the plastic in the bottles that they like something like that like an environmental thing. Yeah, a lot of information for bidets. No one uses toilet paper like I feel like there's other ways to we can. There are. One of the big things that comes up is the amount of methane produced by cows in order to produce milk that that that's then used for formula global warming things like that. And certainly on a global scale, you know, if we increase the breastfeeding rate and we have lower risk of like gastrointestinal illness and you know places that struggle still with like dysentery and that don't have any water and things like that. So yeah, but that it's something that is deeply bothersome to me when policy conversations are at because it's treated like a variable like it's you know wearing a seatbelt or not. So it doesn't cost us anything. Like I my experience and my 1800 hours that they average you know if you exclusively breastfeed that's how much it much time it'll take the first year. That's not negligible like I am not a check my experiences isn't like a box to check. So I appreciate you know that that we could influence public health, but also my personal experience matters. Right and I was because as you were saying the public health thing I was thinking like the opposite thing that if you know I'll have clients where I'm really working with them to be able to bottle feed in some form because they like can't leave the house. They can't go back to work. Like maybe won't take a bottle and this is like a mental health. Therefore that is a public issue. So absolutely. You're like the Emily after a formula to me. One of my like most prize moments is after the most recent recall happened in November because of bachelors and concern Emily Oster messaged me on Instagram and was like what's your name is do you think you know do you think it's going to expand it. I made it. Will you tell her to call me back because that is you work with people like people are like do you want to work with like Taylor Swift as your client. I'm like no I want to work with them. I would love Taylor Swift. That's like pretty much on. That's amazing. Good for you. Yes. I think that's the recalls recalls the recalls I would love to talk about that because I think I was personally getting and I should have reached out to you I was personally getting tons of parents during that time both like like existing clients and those who I'd work previously texting calling everything like I'm not qualified to handle this. I'm not qualified to handle this. It's a really tricky and unfortunate situation for parents from sort of an industry perspective while we never want a recall. The most important one and parents should know that formula is the most highly regulated food product that you can buy because infants are inherently vulnerable their immune systems are still developing. And even though right now it feels scary because you're like oh there was just this recall and you know we had a recall back in 2022 as well. But as a result of these recalls testing and regulation increases so just like it feels scary to fly on an airplane after there's an incident that's actually when flying is safest because you know all eyes and all systems are you know at the absolute highest level. I wish that I could say you know you'll buy this formula it'll never have a recall but but it's food it's a food system and recalls happened constantly in the food system. And the best thing that you can do is obviously make sure that you're preparing your formula safely. Because I hear a lot of concerns from parents that are like I'm worried about bacteria and I'm like great the best thing that you can do is wash your own hands because you're so much more likely to introduce bacteria from your kitchen from your hands than you are to like get formula with bacteria in it. So it's definitely scary but it's something that I personally if I had a baby would not worry about if I was feeding a baby tomorrow because I know how how strictly regulated the system is and the market is and also because it is tougher than ever to get formula on shelf based on safety and quality standards. That's a really good point like your thing about hand washing because I almost think this is like you'll see a picture of somebody with their baby in a car seat with this like it's like that is you might as well just hold them they're like not in the car seat basically it's all wrong but they're like I will only feed my baby organic pouches and it's like we're all out here trying our best but sometimes it's hard to know like everything can't be important so like what is actually the most important for safety. If it really isn't that parents should be panicking about potential recalls and botulism what are the things that you notice that parents actually do that are like legitimately dangerous that they just didn't know that are much easier besides washing your own hands and make mistakes that are dangerous yeah absolutely I love this question paying attention to food safety rules so obviously most formulas me with dairy and therefore you can't let it sit out at room temperature for too long. I hear from a lot of parents that will feed their baby and they won't drink it also they'll put the bottle back in the fridge and then use it at the next feeding you're not supposed to do that so if once that bottle has touched your baby's lips you're supposed to toss any leftover within an hour so that you don't run the risk that any bacteria that's been introduced can multiply multiply to a level that then it makes your baby six so paying attention to food safety rules not propping bottles so not you know putting your baby in a bouncer and then the bottle on the you know toy bar or whatever so that they can drink while your hands free and this is really tough especially for parents with multiples and I know I know my twin parents and my guys I know and like you have limited hands and you have limited time but it does increase the risk that your baby aspirates increases the risk that they choke and also increases the risk for ear infections because milk can kind of just like cool back here by the you station tubes so don't pop your bottles and then the other big thing is don't add anything to your baby's bottles that has calories so especially you know if you talk to the older generation your parents your grandparents they'll be like put serious babies bottle it'll help them sleep or you know it'll help with the risk. Yeah the AAP no longer recommends that because it increases the risk of choking it and it also throws off the macro nutrient ratio you end up with a bottle that has way more carbs than it should in terms of its relationship with protein and fat so washing hands don't prop your bottles pay attention to food safety don't add it in your cereal those would be my top safety tips. Those are great I love that so much like that's what we all need to hear is like everything can't be important so just worry about that worry what it's like when you're pregnant it's like you could get with stereo. But it might just be from the lettuce and you're not going to get a lot of lettuce. Yeah it's like everybody's so focused on the sushi that you try to do so the lettuce yeah that's probably the big deal. So I think them the next thing like for parents who are feeling like they're worried about the safety and then it's like okay for over that hump what is truly the biggest difference between because I think the two things that I hear a lot are personally from clients are either like they're kind of getting the sense that the European ones are better but then feeling nervous because they're not FDA regulated and does that matter yeah and then the sort of what the guilt around like my doctor says to use like new tremigin or and the element of smells really bad and like I want to use Bobby or Nara and like are those fancy ones really a lot like what is the difference between all of them is there some guidance on how to just manage the option basically yeah there are so many options and it's so overwhelming like you go to the aisle and they're like 40 different choices and they're all like grows the brain and support and you're like less crying after 24 hours it's it's very overwhelming so you know the first thing to know is that all formulas are modeled after breast milk all formulas have to be set criteria for what nutrients they include at what levels maximum and minimum so no matter what infant formula you're using whether that's Europe, US name brand store brand organic or not your baby is going to be getting essentially equivalent nutrition meaning they're going to get the same number of grams of fat for serving they're going to get the same number of calories for serving they're going to get the same general amount of vitamin C whatever else vitamin D I don't even think there's vitamin C in there I should know that like I'm like peeking over you know vitamin A vitamin D vitamin E there's vitamins well yeah there's there's lots of vitamins 30 different vitamins minerals so from that standpoint you can't make a bad decision or a wrong decision your baby is going to get the nutrition they need because all formulas clinically shown to produce healthy and appropriate growth and development so then beyond that the question really becomes you know what is your baby need and in some cases they might need a hypoallergenic formula if they have a count of protein allergy and then that limits your options so what is your baby need and then what values and priorities do you have as a customer and I find sometimes parents ignore that they think you know I just have to find the best thing for my baby but if we want to increase the likelihood that you as a parent feel good about formula feeding finding a product that aligns with your own personal values and priorities is really important and so that looks like you know what price per ounce are you comfortable with do you want something that you can get at the store or something that will come on subscription are you convicted organic shopper do you want to avoid corn syrup because you as an adult don't like to eat you know do you have religious or cultural reasons do you need something kosher or whole all do you want something plant based so I always encourage parents really think through what's important to you because there are enough options on the market that we can almost always find something that works for your baby that also works for those those priorities that you have so make a list and you know it's important to you and you know that can help you narrow it down but that's always sort of the framework that I that I told parents to start with there is not that yeah yeah yeah and there's there's not a significant difference between name brand and store brand because they all have to meet those same new trim your requirements so typically comes down to things like ingredient sourcing so all formulas are going to have 50% of their calories from fat because when churbre smell has roughly 50% of calories from fat so then the question is where is that fact coming from and in one formula it might come from soybean oil and coconut oil and another formula it might come from whole milk fat or and or you know low your stagastic rapeseed oil or whatever else so the difference is not so much like the nutrition facts you can basically ignore that they're going to be pretty equivalent to the difference really is in the the ingredients that are used to source those nutrients so just like we as adults can get protein from like lentils or almonds or salmon or a hot dog different formulas use different ingredients to source those same nutrients so that's really where you get the difference between brands and between price points is what ingredients are used and then how are they sourced organic ingredients cost more because they're hard to work with they you know you have to be more intentional about how you grow them how much the seeds cost how they're processed so that's really where the difference comes from but truly you can't get a bad formula because they all are going to support your baby's growth and development I love I really like that angle so much of like they're all going to be good there's no bad options but making the list of like what is most important to me is like I only shop at this one store and I know myself and like I will run out if I want to do something or like yeah from a subscription I really I I'm organic so like what's price point can I handle within organic or if you are the person who's reading every single ingredient yeah then that's what I think just we should all run with that like what matters to you versus like there's a best for all of us right yeah yeah that's absolutely yeah and let me go back and answer your question about European as well because I got I got down my way to the end so I think generally speaking there's a belief that food quality in Europe is better even beyond formula you know there are a lot of preservatives that they can't use they don't use you know glyphosate as a pesticide they don't allow food dies like we do so there's there's just a general belief that European standards are better and in terms of infant formula they have updated their in quality feed standards yeah they've updated their nutrient standards for infant formula much more recently than we have so in the US we have not had a significant significant update to our standards since 1981 so that's 45 years ago and we know yeah we know so much more about infant nutrition and infant nutrient needs and breast milk science than we did 45 years ago and so there's actually a push at the FDA currently to to make an update which I think is great that said even though our standards haven't updated that doesn't mean that there aren't US brands that have essentially taken ownership of meeting the European standards in the ways that they can and you know even like FDA doesn't require DHA which is a it's like fish oil to fatty acid for brain development but almost every formula in the US includes it anyway so just because we don't require doesn't mean that you're not going to find the same quality here and then there are risks for importing if you're importing a fund or that's not FDA regulated it can get seized at customs it can get trapped on a ship at the port if there's a strike it's not temperature control the the instructions might be a Dutch or German and you can you know the ratio is improperly if there's a recall you likely won't be notified and so my recommendation is always prioritize something from the US if you're a US space parent and then you know honestly even if you just Google like European style formula you will find several US based options that European standards where it matters. Yes and there has been a last couple of years maybe an explosion is the wrong word but there have been several new brands that you know are modeled really like after that and I think I'm curious because you said 2016 for your oldest I remember in 2017 when I was a mom who did breastfeed and I obviously a lot of formula feeding friends and almost all of them were using hyperholy and I don't just because I'm talking to clients all the time that number is like I've seen even the last six years of my business. The number has shifted so much more. Yes, US based. Yeah, with my son I used a European formula and that was in 2019. Yeah and now if again if I had a baby tomorrow I wouldn't because I can get that quality here without the price and without the risk and so yeah it's it's been nice seeing that that shift. Yeah and that and actually to the point about the ingredients because I think beyond the recall stuff which I feel like you spoke to beautifully there is definitely this like obsession and I think we all fall for I do too I like here something and I'm like oh my god that's going to kill me like what's going on without even talking about formula. I'm worried about like seed oils and micro plastics and then like here's such like people I trust and I'm like these are like completely opposing statements and so you're just like I guess I'll have a martini because I don't know who to listen to. So that's not the that's not the answer for babies. So yeah like what's your tape on sort of that the not watch the list but just like the ingredients. Yeah yeah so I have so many thoughts and I would say that the seed oil conversation is the one area where I feel like I am trying to push a boulder uphill and getting flattened most of the time because it's really become a conversation and sort of the general. Consciousness in the last couple of years in a way that it hasn't. And so a couple of things to know the first is that infants have different needs than adults especially with a complete nutrition product so you as an adult can decide that you're going to get your fats from avocado or you're going to get your fats from sardines or from allens or whatever else. So babies have to get their fats from one thing whether it's breast milk or formula maybe you know two things if you combo feed but the choices are limited and the choices are limited not only based on what we know they need according to breast milk and also what's been clinically studied to support that healthy growth and development as well as shelf stability. So sometimes I'll hear from parents and they're like I don't eat seed oils I don't want my baby to eat to eat seed oils why can't you use beef tallow i'm like well if you would like to run a multi year seven figure large scale clinical trial I'm about how we make beef tallow shelf stable for in formula you go ahead. But because it's so highly regulated that it's not something that we can just like swap in or out but beyond that you know we know that breast milk is the blueprint breast milk is the gold standard for infant nutrition and everything we do in the formula space is to mirror what we see in breast milk as closely as possible. And the concern that people tend to have about seed oils is that they contain linoleic acid which is an omega six fatty acid and it can be the case that if you eat way more omega six fatty acids and omega three fatty acids it's detrimental to your health and in the standard American diet many of us I would absolutely include myself in this eat way too much that contains omega six fatty acid. We know however that 15% on average in of the fat and mature breast milk is linoleic omega six fatty acid so if we believe that breast milk is the gold standard that tells us that babies need that fatty acid which also makes sense it's an essential fatty acid so we can't demonize seed oils for providing what we know exists in breast milk and we know infants need so. That's sort of the long the long winded answer but for parents that are concerned about it okay i'm glad for parents that are concerned with it you know choosing organic can eliminate or mitigate some of the concerns parents have with seed oils as it relates to you know are they chemically extracted with a solvent like hexane in organic the arming no you know were they GMO seeds do they have pesticide residues you know are they using bleach to withdraw the color in organic farming no so if you want to to mitigate some of those concerns choose organic the other thing that you can do if you're personally concerned about seed oils is choose a whole milk based formula because the whole milk contributes that naturally occurring milk fat the volume of added oil. So while I personally am not at all concerned about seed oils in formula if you are those are some tips to help sort of alleviate some of those concerns while still getting your baby what they need. I love that so you think I was like hanging on every word i'm like this is fascinating just I think we all just sometimes need to be talked off a ledge and it's good to have like the perspective even understanding the thing you're scared of is in breast milk what you're saying is the gold standard like yes yeah yeah. So the best part about all of this actually one thing before I want to talk about the first thing I the one thing before that I hear a lot of parents concerned and I think this is a classic obviously with sleep this comes up all the time babies crying baby has colloquy think they have baby has. Half of the time they're just really tired but they come back and they're like I thought she had the CPI but I think she was just really tired and I'm like I'm not going to gas like you tell you that at a game we're going to find out a few weeks. But obviously there are babies who have colloquy and repluxe and CPI or who for some reason just are not tolerating a formula well what are the like actual signs like baby started on you know similar. And then they're like I'm a lack 360 and it's something's happening three weeks later that you as the infant tech if you were you would be like we got. This is a red flag. So there's a red flag yeah the actual red flag. Yeah you're right that a lot of symptoms that parents are concerned about are very nebulous and they're like oh it could be just that they have an immature digestive system or they could be over tired or they could be over stimulated or you know anything like that. So it can be really hard there are some those sort of red flags that I would look for the first is any sort of new widespread rash like hives or eczema. Eczema is common especially in the colder months but if you noticed it either starting or increasing after you've introduced something new like a supplement or a formula pay attention to that. And hives especially if your baby is getting hives immediately after drinking and not just like you know sometimes babies faces will get red because they're exerting a lot of energy to drink but we're talking like widespread on the trunk and arms and legs. So any sort of widespread rash blood or excessive mucus in the stool and this can be bright red blood or like little black specks that you're like is that blood or not your pediatrician can tell you. Or excessive mucus like really profuse mucus day over day week over week sometimes we see that because of a bee's tea thing or they have a cold and they're swelling mucus that's totally fine but if we see it over and over and over and over and over that tells us there's likely something in their diet that's irritating the gut and the gut is producing mucus to try to create a barrier between the tissue and the irritant. So blood or mucus in the stool projectile vomiting but you know not normal sort of dribbly happy spitter spitter up but projectile vomiting a lot of volume a lot of force and it makes your baby upset that can be a sign in I think the status of your she said projectile projectile. Yes, like you're spitting up a lot and I'm like send me a picture and it's like I know it's scary if you're first time mom and you're like they lost all the food and. They really did it's really the difference yeah it's hard and then you know the biggest and most concerning would be if they are dropping weight percentiles or if they're not maintaining roughly their growth curve. You know what we see with allergy is that the gut gets inflamed and then it affects nutrient absorption so even though they're drinking they're not absorbing those nutrients and then we start to see you know they go down and down and down and then you can get into failure to thrive territory so. Those are the big symptoms that I look for and it is tricky because a lot of it is you know could it be a sensitivity or an allergy maybe but also could it be that you need a different nipple flow or you need an anticolic bottle or you need probiotic drops or they need to sleep more or you need to keep them upright like that there's so many variables and so I really empathize with parents because it is hard and often there's not a clear cut answer. Yeah yeah that's really hard okay and actually I'm curious what you think about this on the growth chart thing because I'll tell parents to because I actually think parents panic about this a ton and like helping them understand that they're looking for like something kind of dramatic like you went to the four month of the point and they're in like the 80th now all of the things like the height the weight and they're down at the 20th and you're like yeah that's really weird and like they seem to be doing the same. Yeah that's the weird going on versus like we were in the 20th and hour in the 15th and I'm like no that's totally fine. Yes exactly yes so some variation is is totally normal and if you know some might pediatrician at least they will actually like show me a chart and you can see the little arc and you can see the individual dots you know go up and down a little bit but the general trend is you know is the same. With my daughter before we switched to formula she had been you know I think she was 60th percentile when she was born and then we were discharged she had lost some weight she was like 48 and then I brought her into it later and she was 13th and so like that is that is a red flag. Yeah it's mostly two weeks like that that is like a huge drop for a very short very short amount of time right yeah yeah but some variation is totally totally. Those things all make sense and I guess the flip side of that is are there things you feel like parents commonly think are reasons they should switch formulas yeah that are not typically yeah. I think honestly sometimes parents get phomo like they'll see a new formula come out or they will see new marketing language and they'll be like this must be better I should switch. My advice is if you have a formula that's working for your baby and it's working for you and your desires and your budget whatever do not switch do not switch don't introduce a potential problem when you don't have one you know if it broke don't fix it so sometimes parents switch for that sometimes parents switch. Because they're seeing symptoms like gas or reflux but they're it's they're not actually related to the formula and they're often not they're often related to positioning while feeding or just you have a baby with a brand new digestive system then you switch and it doesn't get better because it wasn't a formula problem so for switching a formula that a lot yeah that it doesn't like change anything it doesn't make no worse but it's just like yeah yeah because it's not addressing the root cause. And switching the formula always feels like an easy variable like it's easier to switch a formula than it is to try to figure out what what else could be the cause but I always recommend that you switch the formula last because so often you switch the formula you've put your baby through this transition you've spent more money and it doesn't help because that actually wasn't wasn't the issue so you know assess your latch assess your positioning assess that your baby is not overtired or overstimulated you know. Make sure you talk to your pediatrician because they might say well they're spitting up because their esophageal sphincter isn't developed yet and that's normal because they're six weeks old yeah because sometimes switching. I think it's what's normal yeah yeah getting a sense of what's normal absolutely. That's really smart I like that and then I usually tell clients based on like my training and understanding that like two-ish weeks they should feel like it's really stabilized right if they switch formulas if you were seeing like. You could flood like all the things and that was still happening something something's up and it's not yeah formula yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely can be like transition symptoms like the first couple of days you might notice your baby's gassy or fussy or and then parents freak out and they want to switch again I'm like please give it a minute give their little digestive system some time to adjust. Yeah within two weeks you should you should have a sense. So the best part about this conversation is that what you didn't have in 2017 or even in 2019 which is crazy yeah it was like a true resource which you have now created so I just pre-order. Yes I'm excited to read it but can you tell us about bottles services also I was telling at a girl's dinner I was telling about the name and they were like yeah name is so good. Thank you thank you I love it it was funny I was able to record the audiobook and the audio engineer was this like lovely 70 year old man and he was like what does that mean bottle service and I was like well you know it's like kind of a play on you know like bottle service at a bar club and he was like what and I was like well you're not the target market so it's probably fine it's okay that you don't get it yeah it's okay that you don't get it yeah so it's essentially a guidebook for successful and confident formula feeding although it's also applicable for bottle feeding parents too a lot of it is so if you're an expensive bumper there's a lot of good insight in there as well but it's it's exactly what you said it's the resource that I'm looking for that I couldn't find and specifically something that is both educational and data driven and research back but also supportive and encouraging and that's really sort of how the book works so there are lots of chapters that are just strictly education you know I'm going to talk about that. So I'm going to talk about strictly education you know how do you pick a formula what's in formula how do you know when to go up or down a nipple size how do you ween off of bottles and which bottles do you start with then you know that sort of stuff and then there are quick tips which are sort of actionable things that you can do today to make your life better because my my least favorite thing in the world is when people are like well you know it'll get better by six months or six weeks and that's like an eternity when you how many baby you're living like a thousand lifetimes every 24 hours so so you can implement it truly truly so tips that you can implement today and then a series of mom notes is what they're called in the book they're just little vignettes about this season of life and ideas for feeling more like yourself and how to navigate a feeding journey that doesn't go as planned and you know what if you have to go back to work early and you are feeling bad about it or you're feeling excited about it and then you feel bad that you're excited because what does that say about you so yeah totally all sorts of little supportive notes in there as well it sounds amazing I truly am very excited to read it because I think so many parents need this information and it's funny you get it too because you work often I'm sure at the first time families or the other ones reaching out and it's like there's all these resources is available to them but like you're so overwhelmed when you have a new baby so it's so great to have things to point people to that like you might have never heard of this book or this person but like this is going to be life changing yeah that's the hope and I think especially parents now now more than ever it's hard to know where to go to find accurate information and we used to be able to point to the FDA or the CDC and be like well you can go there and now even that is like what is happening so what is happening and you know can we trust it and are the links still going to be there because they're pulling things down from the website they don't agree with them and all of that so I'm really glad that this can be a resource that that parents can rely on yes me too I think it's amazing and if you guys want to pre-order bottle service I'm going to put the link in the show notes here so you can see it and you can get it I ordered it from Amazon but there's like a bunch of different places you can get it yeah it was so far it's a noble book actually isn't bookshop.org isn't that the one that's like independent books it supports independent book stores which I think is lovely I should have gone it from there I'm the worst but so get it from there don't get it from and you can ask for your book library carry it yes oh yes yes question your local library and if you have a local bookstore I've actually done that a few times when I remember if I want to get something I will reach out to pages bookstore and Manhattan Beach and get you guys get me this and I always say yes they always do and follow gallery on the formula mom on Instagram great tips I pointed there's many times to different like grid posts or things you've done and you have a guide as well like there's so many things you have so yes absolutely yeah and I like I mentioned at the top I'm always in DMs too so people can DM me and I do my best to get to everybody and then I also wanted to throw out too that if you pre-order the book before it releases so it releases February 24th if you pre-order it ahead of time there's a link in my bio you can upload your proof of purchase and you get some fun pre-order goodies so there's a PDF download about starting a formula and ending a formula and then there's also if you're US based a companion children's book that I will mail you if you pre-order bottles or message it out I'm going to do it you should you should go fill out the form Mallory thank you so much for coming I learned so much and I know everyone else well too when I really I know you're busy your hustling hustling on the book tour circuit so thank you for yes I'm safe now thank you for the opportunity I love love talking about this and and I really I hope it's helpful for your for your followers and listeners it is your passion I know helps so many people so on behalf of all of us thank you we can't thank you Thank you