Trump's promising peace, but that could still come with problems

Being an American right now is a wild ride. The headlines come fast, but what do they actually mean for people's lives? I'm Alex Wagner, and on my new Crooked Media podcast, Runaway Country, I'm talking to people across the nation to uncover how political chaos is shaping their everyday realities. Join me and some of the smartest thinkers in politics to ask how we take back the reins of a runaway nation. Listen to Runaway Country with Alex Wagner every Thursday, wherever you get our podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube. - Welcome to Left, Right, and Center, everybody. I'm David Green. We really appreciate you being here, and we wanna turn first to the situation in Gaza. All eyes remain on the Gaza Strip right now after that recent ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas. In his visits to the Israeli Parliament and also to a peace summit in Egypt, President Trump made this declaration. After years of suffering and bloodshed, the war in Gaza is over. Humanitarian aid is now pouring in, including hundreds of truckloads of food, medical equipment, and other supplies, much of it paid for by people in this room. - In reality, we should say the promise of peace still seems pretty tenuous. The return of 20 Israeli hostages held by Hamas and 2,000 Palestinians held as prisoners in Israel did trigger the first phase of this peace deal. The next phase may hinge on Hamas quickly returning the bodies of all 28 dead Israeli hostages. So far, they've returned some, claiming that the rest are difficult to recover amidst the rubble and destruction throughout Gaza. Israel, meanwhile, has threatened to block aid if bodies are not returned soon, all of which has been highlighting the fragility in all of this. But just getting to this point is an achievement. And here at home, both Republicans and some Democrats have been praising President Trump for his central role in this. Sarah Isger is back with us this week. On the right, she is senior editor at The Dispatch. She hosts the advisory opinions podcast, and she was spokesperson at the Department of Justice under President Trump. And on the left, it's great to have Liz Brunig back as well. She is staff writer at The Atlantic. And I just thought we have not heard from either of you since this deal came into play. So I would love just kind of initial thoughts on hopes for this deal in Gaza holding. Sarah, I'll turn to you first. - So obviously the hostages, the living hostages have been released, and that itself is a great day. I mean, there's just nothing else to say about that. I guess I am a little bit confused how Hamas agreed to a deal to return the bodies of dead hostages when they then now claim that they don't have them, slash can't find them, et cetera. Why make a deal that you know you can't keep? It's just sort of is now putting everyone in a bad spot, including Hamas, by the way, because it means that they aren't, they're going to make promises that they don't intend to keep, no, they can't keep, et cetera. That will be a problem moving forward. And of course, as we've seen on the ground in Gaza, Hamas has been consolidating power with egregious amounts of violence and mass executions. So there is great news about a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. It's great for the hostages that have been returned. But boy, as you say, this sure feels tenuous, both in terms of the deal holding, but also in terms of the escalating violence within Gaza from Hamas. - Yeah, Liz, how much hope are you putting in this holding right now? - Not much, you know, there have been prior agreements or near agreements that have failed. I think Israel, if I'm not mistaken, fired on some people in Gaza who they said were, you know, crossing these lines, they have laid down now for withdrawal. I'm clear if those lines are well-known or established by any kind of indicator. But that signaled to me that, you know, there's still great readiness to pursue this conflict. And I just think there's kind of an intractable problem here where, you know, two different groups of people feel entitled to the exact same land and they don't want to occupy it together. And I don't know if any political agreement, any temporary ceasefire or treaty or arrangement, I just don't think it's gonna overcome the central issue. I'm not sure that anything can. - Yeah, I mean, it feels like, and Sarah, I think about you putting the focus on the hostages and the people who have been returned. It's like at a family level, families that have been reunited, there are things to celebrate life-changing moments and feelings of relief that have changed the course of lifetimes, knowing that you're seeing people who you thought could be lost, but on sort of the global scale, there's so much that just seems unpredictable. Liz, I think two parties that seem interested in still pursuing a conflict is a nice way to put it. And I don't think the fundamental, those fundamentals have necessarily changed right now, which makes this hard. - Yeah, I mean, that's my feeling is that, you know, this is a, it's a, an end to maybe this conflict at best, and that's worth celebrating, but I very much doubt that we will see, you know, what Donald Trump is saying, which is sort of a new and lasting piece in the Middle East. - And we even see that, again, like the deal that was made, in its best case scenario, right, is that Hamas will not be in control of Gaza. It will be this sort of new-ish Palestinian authority concept. But as Liz is saying, A, we haven't solved any of the underlying problems, which is that Hamas or the government, supposed government of that area, does not believe that Jews should exist. I mean, they're like mantras to wipe Jews off the planet. And in a, you know, you can't just go back to pre-October 7th, which is basically what this tries to do, because October 7th did happen. And so the idea that Israel can trust its neighbors seems unlikely, like that that is going to happen. And in the meantime, this idea that Hamas won't be in charge, I mean, just in the last, you know, several days, I think we've seen that they may like switch their hats from Hamas hats to Palestinian authority hats or something, but Hamas is still very much in charge, which again, we've seen this rinse and repeat where there's a tenuous peace and a ceasefire, and Hamas goes and commits some atrocity, Israel responds, and we're right back to where we started. - And yet it's been interesting to see how this moment has landed in, you know, in our politics here at home. I want to listen to one voice here. I mean, Jack Lew, former US Treasury Secretary, but then, you know, he served as President Biden's ambassador to Israel. He was on NPR's morning edition this week. And, you know, he said President Trump is facing different circumstances than Biden did in some ways. But he said that Donald Trump definitely deserves credit for pulling this off. - I think one of the things, and you're seeing it today in the pictures from Israel, left and right in Israel are very much behind what President Trump is doing, which gives him enormous ability to put pressure on both the prime minister in Israel and on other parties in the region. I think it was very much the case that there was a reluctance on the part of the Netanyahu government to agree to an all for all, all the hostages, all the prisoners end to the war at the moment we were in. This is a different moment. And yes, it's a different president who's disruptive style, whose unique ability to create uncertainty has led to something very good today. So I think we have to give credit there. - Liz, I want to ask you about some of the things that Jack Lew said there. I mean, this is a different president. He has a disruptive style, has a unique ability to create uncertainty that led to something very good. I mean, how do you read that? What do you make of that? And do you agree? - Yeah, I mean, it's certainly possible that Trump's force of personality affects people like Netanyahu differently than say, you know, Biden's or the Biden administration's general attitude. You know, Trump, of course, approved enormous amounts of money to go to Israel for carrying this out. So it's not as though the United States is a completely neutral party here. I think that, you know, there must have been some sort of discussions with withdrawal of US support. Maybe they took that more seriously coming from Trump than they did from Biden, but I just keep thinking about the fact that, you know, we could have had almost this exact deal under Biden, but for some reason the Trump administration was able to pursue it really aggressively. It appears as to where the Biden administration didn't for some reason. - Yes, Sarah, I know you, I mean, you and I, and I think Moa Lathi would, you know, some shows back. I mean, talked about looking forward to President Trump's foreign policy in ways that maybe his disruptive style could pull things off that other presidents have nod. I wonder, is that what we're seeing here? And how would you describe what we see going on if there is something unique that President Trump has brought to this? - I think there might actually be a much simpler explanation for this. I mean, A, I actually do think that Trump's foreign policy has been and should be considered a surprise and it has been good for the United States of America in many respects over the last several months. But this might have a much simpler explanation, which is that a Republican president was always going to be able to do things that a Democratic president wasn't going to be able to do. And vice versa, by the way, it's these sort of sister-soldier type moments. You were able to cajole and push your own side to do things that there would simply be too much antagonism to accomplish with the other side. The Biden presidency on the foreign policy stage was simply a disaster. I mean, it started with the pullout from Afghanistan and then it just kept on going from there. So not only was that makes the president seem weak, of course, but also really unable to go to Israel where the Democrats are not seen necessarily as friends of Netanyahu and say, "Hey, Netanyahu, you know, time's up, you really got to do this." One of your friends saying that to you comes across very differently. It's the reason you send gold water to go tell Nixon to resign. You don't send the Democratic senator to tell Nixon to resign, he's not going to do it. And so in that sense, I think it's a very gold water to Nixon moment that doesn't have that much to do with Trump's disruptiveness, actually. - Hmm, do you agree with that, Liz? - I mean, it's completely plausible. You know, I don't know the details of these discussions as they went on behind the scenes. But, you know, would Israel have been more susceptible to pressure from any Republican than any Democrat? I mean, it's completely possible. I don't know that every Republican president would have put pressure on them at all. And so maybe Trump is kind of distinct in that way. - Fair. - I guess I just think of disruption. And Sarah, I don't disagree with what you're saying at all, that there's definitely a political dynamic. I mean, that a Republican, you know, is seen by Netanyahu differently. But there's something here that I'm struggling with, like it's Trump's motivations that could be less about a long game, less about lasting peace, less maybe about legacy, and more about getting a win and showing power that, you know, you could look at it in a negative light and say, you know, it's all about him, but maybe there are times when it's all about him that actually turn out to be good for American foreign policy interests. And because he's not, he's doing something distinctive and still a little murky. Like I read Stephen Collinson who covers foreign policy and politics for CNN. I mean, he wrote it would be more accurate to describe Trump as an opponent of internationalism rather than a prophet of isolationism. He increasingly relishes applying American power on the global stage. Like he wanted to show that America was powerful. And if that does bring some sort of lasting peace to the Middle East, then great. But that wasn't necessarily his motivation. - Oh, I think that's clearly true. I just don't think that's particularly distinct. Every American president wants to bring peace to the Middle East. Every American president wants to flex what a powerful man they are. It's like the whole reason that someone runs for president. These aren't normal people who want to be president of the United States and make it that far. They're weird. - They are weird, but I like think of Afghanistan, for example. I mean, I don't know if Joe Biden was trying to show power in that withdrawal. That felt like a really difficult, messy decision where he had in mind, I have to make a decision that I know is gonna cause me to suffer politically. It wasn't in his self-interest. I mean, it's almost like there were motivations that I like more that might have been much less effective. And there's something here that when Trump is motivated by something that I don't love, maybe it works. - Oh, I don't know about Biden. I think he wanted to prove his former president, Barack Obama, wrong. Because remember, he had been pushing for this in that administration and it lost that fight. And so this was his chance to prove that old Joe Biden got it right again. - We could probably dig into this and talk for a lot more about the, I mean, the Afghanistan. But Liz, what do you think of the thirst for power and how that plays into a foreign policy? - Well, I think Sarah is exactly right, that people who pursue the American presidency probably are wired a little bit differently than most of us. - Weird, they're weird. - I think you see that, they're weird. And you see that, I think it expressed most clearly in foreign policy, where they're sort of getting to act as the representative of the United States on the global stage. I think that's where you see the power of the presidency really come to the forefront, at least in terms of visibility. - Yeah, I mean, Sarah, do you see this kind of thing holding this, I mean, do you see that the next Gaza, where Trump could apply this, whatever this foreign policy is that we see unfolding? - I mean, we're certainly seeing him try with Putin and Zelensky. - Yeah, it's the next test. - What's interesting there is, I mean, he's certainly trying the same playbook, right? And he's bullying Putin. What makes that more interesting to me is that, Putin or Xi or in North Korea, he's gotten a lot of criticism for supposedly cozying up to the bad guys. But of course, this is what's gonna make him effective with Putin, is that Putin sees him as someone who understands him potentially, et cetera. And so, for instance, a Biden or a Bush, you name it, for someone like that to go out there and sort of try to bully Putin, or what are you even trying to do here? Like, I don't know why you're trying to continue this war. That wouldn't have mattered one bit. From Trump, it might actually matter. So I do think it'll be fascinating to see whether he can notch another win against that war. 'Cause that will actually, you know, one time may be a coincidence. Two times, that's a pattern. - But that is an intractable situation as well, where a lot of fundamental forces are at work in that conflict too. So yeah, but an important next test, obviously. - And to your point, temporary may be good enough. And maybe we should celebrate those wins more than we tend to do, instead of talking about how like, I don't see how this is gonna hold. It feels very pre-October 7th to me. Like, all that may be true. And yet, for today, there are people home who wouldn't otherwise be home. There's people alive who wouldn't otherwise be alive. - Yeah. All of our listeners out there, if you have thoughts about this and wanna engage with each other across the aisle, across the kitchen table, perhaps, if you have something to say about what we talk about on the show this week, you can join the Left, Right, and Center Community Conversation on Substack. Sign up for a weekly inbox reminder to hone up on the show and get to debating. You can join us at kcrwlrc.substack.com. That is kcrwlrc.substack.com. Liz and Sarah and I are gonna come back in a moment. We're gonna talk about how Trump's focus abroad has been received by his base at home here on Left, Right, and Center. (upbeat music) - Okay, we are back with more Left, Right, and Center. I'm David Green, joined on the Left by Liz Brunig, who is staff writer at The Atlantic and on the right by Sarah Isger. She's senior editor at The Dispatch, former spokesperson at the Department of Justice under President Trump. We're talking about the peace deal in Gaza and President Trump has been getting credit. His administration has been getting credit from even Democrats for a foreign policy win. And at the moment, I think we could say that Trump's brand as a world leader has perhaps never been stronger than it is at this moment. Except maybe for some in the United States, where, let's remember, the federal government remains closed just days after the shutdown in Washington. CBS, YouGov, polled Americans on the most important issues on their minds. Events overseas ranked seventh on the list. The economy, inflation, those were the two issues at the top. In addition, 75% of respondents said President Trump is not focused enough on lowering prices. So let's start there. I mean, Liz, does Donald Trump have his focus in the right place right now? - You know, if he's focusing on peacemaking efforts, you know, that's one of the less destructive applications of Donald Trump's attention. But he seems to be paying close attention to domestic matters as well. You know, I don't think that the Trump administration has lost sight of what they're trying to carry out here in the United States. I mean, just to give one brief example that I just ran across, they're revoking visas of people who made light of the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And there was a big thread on Twitter where they were citing these remarks that they were revoking these visas over. So I mean, that sort of activity, that kind of heavy speech policing is certainly going on here in the United States. And so are Trump's massive deportation efforts. So, I mean, his attention doesn't seem to be, it doesn't seem to be a very finite resource. He's definitely doing two things at once. - Well, Sarah, I mean, if we listen to Liz right there, I mean, what President Trump is focusing on at home is immigration and crackdowns on people in the country, illegally and the agendas, as Liz said, going after people for their immigration status for things that they said about Charlie Kirk as he is seeking peace in the Middle East and focusing on foreign policy. I mean, tell me what you think of the choice of not playing up sort of the pocketbook issues, which I think are clearly important to people and important to people in his base. But as you've said before, so is immigration. - Yeah, I mean, we have sort of a base versus midterm election problem here. I do think it's worth a second on the domestic politics of the peace deal. Because I think it's more complicated than people have thought through and more of a victory for Trump than people have thought through. The war in Gaza was one of the few areas where Trump was losing his base. And I mean, quickly, you look at polling that shows now over half of Republicans under the age of 50 say they identify more with Palestinians than with Israelis. That is a, I mean, landslide change in American politics from the last 30, 40 plus years. And so that had a real potential weakness for Trump, a chink in his base armor, if you will, that he's now been able to fix. Not fix in terms of changing their minds, fixes and get it out of the fricking headlines. And so the less that we can talk about Gaza and Israel and all of that, the better it is for Trump and his base because that same base, as you say, they care a lot about immigration and they care a lot about crime. What Trump is doing is making sure that they see lots of stories about that, about him doing something about it. You know, the actual numbers compared to, let's say Barack Obama in terms of deportations, not very different, but it's the number of people crossing the border because that message is getting out, don't come here. And that is a big win for Trump and his base. Now, you look at the midterm elections and the economic warning signs should be, you know, flashing in your brain because that's how midterms are won and lost. But you need that base first. And so look, Trump obviously thinks the base stuff is more fun. I just think that's like obvious in how he conducts himself. But those midterm elections are gonna creep up and as you say, they're going to be all about pocketbook issues. - Yeah, and I think, you know, those pocketbook issues and making sure to focus on things like those pocketbook issues. I mean, Trump spoke about that. I mean, he campaigned on that. I just think about his promise of America first when he delivered his first inaugural in 2017. From this day forward, it's going to be only America first. America first. Every decision on trade, on taxes, on immigration, on foreign affairs will be made to benefit American workers and American families. - American workers, American families, I mean, pocketbook issues. What you're talking about there is how your party wins midterms. And yet, I mean, I hear what you're saying on kind of maybe some of the reasons to work quickly on a peace deal in Gaza and get it out of the headlines in the United States. But, you know, it's not just Gaza. I want to talk a little bit about the president's recent interest in Argentina. I mean, he has close ties to the president there, Javier Millay, whom Trump has described as "maga all the way." The Trump administration's offered $20 billion in economic aid, hinting as much as $40 billion in economic aid to a foreign country. And the president was asked by a reporter how sending billions of dollars abroad is aligned with this vision. - How is this Argentina rescue package America first? And is this rescue package meant to help President Millay's party in the coming election? - You know, it's really meant to help a good financial philosophy where Argentina can have to 20 years of disaster, 'cause it was very successful at one point. And it can be, again, like Venezuela. Venezuela was very, very successful. And now it's a dictatorship. - And the president was also asked by a reporter what's the benefit for the United States of this aid package to Argentina. And here's some more of what he said. - We want to see it succeed, very simple. I mean, we don't have to do it. It's not gonna make a big difference for our country, but it will in terms of South America. If Argentina does well, you're gonna have others following. And a lot of others are following. - I mean, interesting thing here. I mean, there have been many Democrats who have said that helping other countries and their economies abroad can help the United States. But Liz, I guess I just wonder, you know, how can Donald Trump do both of these things? Say that every decision on foreign affairs will be made for American workers, American families, and then put this emphasis on foreign policy in a country like Argentina abroad? - Yeah, I mean, you know, he's able to do those things to promise to make decisions that only benefit the United States. And then at the same time make decisions that benefit other countries by being inconsistent. That's how he does those things. And, you know, that's fine, I suppose. Because, you know, if he's making decisions that for whatever reason benefit other countries as well as the United States, I guess that's kind of what you hope to see in politics. But if it comes to him making decisions that, you know, sort of directly impact the United States and not in a good way. And maybe that's what spending a lot of money on a project that doesn't directly benefit Americans is. But I think that's where you might see the base become a little aggravated. - All right, you're listening to Left, Right, and Center from KCRW. We're talking about the president's emphasis on foreign policy right now, on the peace deal in Gaza, an economic bailout potentially to Argentina. Sarah, I keep thinking about political vulnerabilities and you bringing up that in midterm elections, you know, pocketbook issues are really important. One of the communities in the United States is struggling right now soybean farmers. And I wanna dig into this a little bit because President Trump's tariff war with China means fewer American soybeans are going to China. But you know where China is buying soybeans from? Argentina, the country that Trump is offering to bail out. So a CBS News correspondent spoke with soybean farmers across the Midwest about the real anxiety they're feeling right now. - This is awful discouraging. You know, we do our very best to grow a good crop, to feed the world, and then we can't hardly give it away. - Many growers say they feel betrayed after the Trump administration gave Argentina a financial lifeline, a $20 billion loan. Argentina then immediately dropped their soy tariffs to China undercutting U.S. farmers. - So Sarah, when does this kind of betrayal become an actual political problem for Republicans and President Trump? - Oh boy, you're gonna hate my answer to this. - I'm ready for it. - So-- - How do you know that? - Are you ready? Buckle it. - I'm ready. - Because I hate the answer. Look at the elections going on in Virginia right now. - Okay. - Especially the gubernatorial and this attorney general election. Remember, Virginia and New Jersey, especially are these off-cycle races that we sort of look at as tealies, they generally turn against whoever holds the White House. But the race in New Jersey is becoming tighter and tighter with the Republican all of a sudden catching up to the Democratic candidate. That is like a double bounce, if you will. And in Virginia, again, race becoming very tight. You now have Barack Obama coming into campaign for the Democrat, a race that should be quite easy for the Democrats to win in two blue states. Okay, so why is that happening? Because as much as it matters what the party in power is doing and believes, as you've, you know, this whole segment is about, you also have to have a viable opposition party saying things that are moderately popular. And this is where Democrats just step on their own feet, if you will, over and over again. In Virginia, the gubernatorial candidate just couldn't answer questions about where she is on transgender participation in women's sports. She couldn't really say much about the attorney general candidate on her ticket who had said he wanted to put two bullets in the head of the Republican Speaker of the House. And so when you allow your own party to get sort of in these culture war distractions, it takes away from the ability for pocketbook issues to really push people to your party. - Liz, I, well, Sarah, I don't hate your answer at all. I think it's very student analysis personally. And Liz, it makes me wonder, like, we've been talking about on the show the last few weeks. I mean, how Democrats in this government shutdown, I mean, one of the motivations, and as Recline talked about this, is that maybe Democrats needed to, like, for this shutdown to happen to give them a platform, a stage, a big moment to make a case. And it's like, here we are, you know, some in President Trump's own part, soybean farmers are saying that they feel betrayed. Like, isn't this the moment that Democrats should be grabbing this America-first mantle and saying we are the party that can help you in times of economic need? And why are they falling short so far? - Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, not desired, but certainly a great opportunity for Democrats to sort of establish their utility for a lot of Americans and saying, you know, we are actually fighting for your interests. Trump made hollow promises. And I'm sure a lot of that will go into midterm campaigns. But, you know, the Democrats have been strangely muted during the second Trump administration. And I don't see, I don't really see that changing right now. There doesn't seem to be any at least concerted rush to take advantage of this moment politically, which doesn't mean there haven't been, you know, accusations of, you know, Republicans causing the shutdown and Republicans being at fault for a lot of what's going on with the economy right now. It's just that, you know, the Republican base at this point has sort of established their own media ecosystem and their own, you know, sort of internal canon of ideas. And I don't think that they necessarily are as susceptible to persuasion as they might have been in the past. But that leaves a lot of independence who maybe are and the Democrats should be trying harder. - Yes, strangely muted is probably not the best strategy. I think for the, for an opposition party right now. I do want to ask about one other dynamic here because President Trump is starting to hear it from his own party. I mean, Iowa Republican Senator Chuck Grassley has for weeks, you know, expressed concern about farmers. And he said at one point the Trump's tariffs are quote, "stupid policy." But then you also have Georgia House member Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, she's been saying that her voters are waiting for their leaders to focus on things like their health insurance costs. - Look, when it comes to hearing from senior citizens or my own friends and neighbors and my own family members and people that voted for me. And they're just saying, Marjorie, we just really want somebody to do something about health insurance premiums. We really want our government and our leaders to actually focus on our country for a change and fix our problems. That is the message I constantly hear from my district. And I'm a representative. I don't have to be a cheerleader for my party. I have to represent my district because those are the people that hired me and sent me here. - Sarah, how much weight should we put in hearing from some of the president's most ardent supporters in Congress beginning to say, hey, my constituents need you and you're not delivering? - I've never seen a better example of what it sounds like when a politician plans to run for higher office. But David, it matters if your voters have somewhere to go. And again, like the biggest headline coming out of the New York mayor's debate that happened was Mondani's apology for calling the NYPD racist, anti-queer and a major threat to public safety and calling for them to be defunded. If your voters don't have anywhere else to go, you don't have to do a lot for your voters. So I just, the Democrats have to be a viable alternative. And time and again, they've shown they don't want to be, I guess, I don't know. I mean, you have this whole abundance plan out there from some really smart people who are like, hey, if you actually think that Trump is a threat, if you actually hate the way this administration is going, why don't we be for competence in government? And I swear to you, the response has been, how dare you, sir? No, we want to continue doing the stuff that has caused us to lose because that's how you prove that you're pure by losing, okay? There we go. - Is that a different version of weirdly muted or strangely muted list? It feels like it's, I mean, Sarah is suggesting a motivation for why Democrats are not diving into some of the more traditional pocketbook issues, be it they have something to prove whatever the cost. - Well, I mean, I think the Democrats are kind of struggling in part because they committed themselves to all of these things that it turns out were actually not very popular. And because those are principled commitments, they don't want to move backwards on them. And so they're just sort of hamstrung because there's a contingent in the Democratic Party that would like to put that, we can categorize it as woke stuff. They would like the Democrats to put that woke stuff aside and focus on these pocketbook issues. And there are other members of the Democratic Party who say, no, I'm like principally committed to the woke stuff and I won't put it aside just because people can't handle it or aren't ready for it. And so I think the Democrats struggle in that way. And I think that you've seen that kind of identity crisis really unfold over this administration. - I believe the Democratic data operative, David Shore called it popularism. Like Democrats should be for things that are popular and stop being for things that are unpopular, which to me sounds more like politics. - Bad news for the Democratic Party. It feels like we've been talking about this problem that they're facing for a long time. And it still doesn't seem like there's been a clear solution, a new clear message. All right, Sarah and Liz and I are gonna come back in just a moment. We're gonna consider some advice from a writer about what we should all be prioritizing these days. You're listening to "Left, Right, and Center." All right, we're back again with "Left, Right, and Center." I'm David Green. Sarah Isger is here on the right. She is senior editor at the Dispatch. Liz Brunig is here on the left. She is staff writer at the Atlantic. And I wanted to turn to an essay that was published by your organization, Sarah, the Dispatch. It's from SD Zandi. She wrote about the importance of pruning in our lives as we live in this culture of hustling and constantly working. The idea is to carefully and selectively manage our ecosystem, all the relationships, the experiences, the content, so that we can find some sort of balance. She makes it clear. She's not saying don't, for one thing, wipe out all social media. Some of social media is good, but don't let this invasive species consume the landscape. And all of this, she argues, could start with human connection. SD went kind of reluctantly to a book club at a local pub. She hadn't read the whole book. SD, I know the feeling, I'm with you. But then she realized that few of the other women at the book club had read the book. And they started talking about family. They started talking about relationships, struggles they face in their personal lives. As she wrote, this book club wasn't about books, I realized, a little dumbly, a little late, but about getting to know our neighbors better. I mentally shelved my book notes and allowed myself to be enmeshed. As she put it, this neighborhood group of women was a terrible book club, but it was an incredible community, unfiltered, real, and it came with sticky coasters and focaccia crumbs. She added, the local circle is where our real selves are known. Though that's not something we always want, it's what we desperately need. Sarah, do you relate to what she's writing about here? - First of all, it was just great writing. I just highly recommend-- - Yeah, it was great. - I mean, just that part you read is just beautiful prose, if you want to think about good writing in the world. - I agree. - I have been trying to prune. Like this kind of pruning or actual pruning? - Actually, I did some of that yesterday too. I have been literally and metaphorically pruning this week. So I keep it to-do list. I keep it in Gmail draft, so it's literally on my phone at all times. At the top of my to-do list is put down your phone. And it's just a reminder that it's become a habit, right? If you've got a couple minutes, or if there's a lull and whatever you're doing, you just pick up your phone and look for something. I don't even know what I'm looking for. It's just like, I don't know, that's what it's there for. - I know that feeling. It's just like part of like the routine. Like I must, I should look for something now. - I should look for something. And it's totally addictive in that sense, because you're not actually doing anything. And Carly Fiorina, when I worked for her campaign, she had this mantra that it's funny how your bosses affect your life. I mean, every boss I've had has affected my life in some ways, and I'm very grateful to all of them. I am so grateful to Carly for hammering this into me. Activity is not the same as accomplishment. And I think that's what pruning is trying to get to often. Like picking up your phone and like scrolling is an activity, but you didn't accomplish anything. You didn't even accomplish that like a sense of boredom that I think is really important to our brains, 'cause you're not bored, right? You're stimulating your brain. So you'd be better off staring at a tree and watching the leaves move around in the breeze than you are looking at your phone. At least that is accomplishing something. But my pruning hasn't been going very well because it is addictive, the phones, I mean, and all of the stuff that's on the phones. But, you know, Hope Springs Eternal and I am trying. No, I am too, and you know, I guess, Liz, what I liked about this essay, it was beautifully written like you said, Sarah, but it also, it's like we talk about these things all the time, like less phone time, put your phone down, screens are bad. She actually took it to a deeper level. Like it was more nuanced. It was more realistic, I think, like a fresh take. - Yeah, I mean, you know, putting your phone down is I think something we've heard a lot about and it's, you know, in service of what? And it suggests there's other things you should be doing aside from messing with your phone. And that's often the case. I don't think it's wrong at all to suggest that our lives, you know, are actually what is unfolding around us. I had this kind of epiphany a few years ago when I got off social media, where I had had lots of interactions on social media and I had been able to easily surveil what other people were doing and thinking. But I realized when I quit that my whole life, my real life the entire time has actually been people who live close to me, see me every day, know me. Those people actually know me. Those people love me. Those are my real life. And, you know, I still, I'm on Instagram and I use it for pictures of baking and stuff, like videos on how to make cookies and whatnot. But I don't, I don't follow any kind of influencer or anything like that 'cause I really want to know less about what's going on with other people. So I can just, you know, live in the world that I actually have, which is my neighbor's friends, family. You know. - By the way, David, for years, I have looked at Liz as like a pruning role model. And I do not think it is coincidental that Liz is one of the most thoughtful people out there at all, but also even think of the way she talks. It is slowly, but with more authority and that she really knows her own mind. I truly Liz, like I think it is, you are a role model for me and should be for a lot of other people out there, like this is what pruning can get you. - So extremely kind. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. - That is a, Liz, I hope you can set an example and continue setting an example for us. So I want to thank you too. I think we have time for a quick listener question. We love hearing your questions. And this question comes from a listener named Logan. - Hi, left, right and center. My name's Logan and I'm from Arizona. Twice now on the show, our two-party system has been compared to Coke and Pepsi with the unpopular third option being RC Cola. I'm shocked that Dr. Pepper wasn't mentioned in this conversation, which has a 2024 actually has a bigger market share than Pepsi. So in that spirit and as political operatives, how would you create a quote unquote Dr. Pepper Party in the current political landscape? Whether that be a true third party or maybe a rebranding of the lost Democratic Party or a post-Trump Republican Party? What would you need? Who would be the face of it? And which underrepresented and a politically homeless Americans would you target? - I know I'm supposed to ask a serious political question right now. What I really want to ask is how, which so does we like more than the other? Because I love Dr. Pepper. I love Coke. I hate Pepsi. And I don't know what that says about politics, but I don't know, Sarah, how can we help Logan create a Dr. Pepper Party in this political landscape? - So first of all, shout out to one of my very good friends who's a senior executive at Dr. Pepper. Congrats. - There you go. - You get a whole segment on this. - Yeah. - Did you know Dr. Pepper and Keurig are actually the same company by the way? - I did not know that. - Yeah, right? So you learned something today. - They're only like four companies in the world that make every product that we use. So that doesn't surprise you. - I think that's right. Look, here's the problem. Like 10 years ago, I would have said, that's really easy. It's like a quasi-libertarian government competence party. And then a wonderful friend of mine, named Kristen Soltis Anderson, who runs a polling company called Echelon Insights, basically broke out the American electorate into seven different political parties. And my political party, she called the Acela Corridor Party, which first of all, that's not great. You already know that's not gonna be a good sign. It's the smallest chunk of the American electorate. So never be fooled that you and your friends are representative of anything. Nevertheless, I wish that there were a party out there that was going to be like, hey, we're for free speech, even for the really unpopular stuff, we're for government actually doing the things it says it's gonna do. I'm not sure we need a third party for that. I don't know why one of these two parties doesn't start standing for those things as perhaps we got into a little bit there in the last segment. Liz, can you help Logan create a quote, true third party? - No, probably not. I have some of the strangest political views I think it's even possible to have. I mean, if it were up to me, I would like a kind of pro-human life socialist party, which has a constituency of like 24 people, probably. - Keep it small and tight. But this is toward a point, Liz, that our two political parties are not actually based on first principles because your political party hangs together, if you will, as a single principle kind of up top. These two political parties are just a hodgepodge of what gets you to 51% in any given cycle, which is why they can change if they want to be popular. - Yeah, and I mean, and should, I think, especially when you look at the Democrats, there's an enormous Democrat penalty. I think this came out of recent polling, just because people have such negative associations with the Democratic Party at this point, it would be better, I think, in some states if the candidates running against Republicans didn't characterize themselves as Democrats, but instead ran as independents. And so I think the Democratic Party has to do something in order to reverse that if they ever want to win anything again. And I think a first step towards that might be trying to solve this identity crisis that they're having. - Can your friend-- - Adopt my platform, be for free speech, even when you're the party in power, be for free speech, even for your political opponents. How hard is this? - And maybe the Democratic Party should hire your friend who worked at Dr. Pepper, Sarah, and then that's, they could use some branding help right now. All right, Logan, thank you for the soda and politics-related question. We really appreciate it. And we want to hear from all of you. If you have questions, you would like to hear answered on the show. And I promise we are reading and listening to all of them, even if you don't hear your voice on the show. But record a voice memo, keep it to around 30 seconds or so if you can, send it to us at [email protected]. That address one more time, [email protected]. Drop your first name, where you're calling from, your question, and maybe we will play it on the show. All right, let's go to our rants and raves. Liz Bruni, what do you want to rant or rave about today? - You know, speaking of dispatches from my real life, my husband is a great husband and he's a great dad and he does a ton of stuff with the children. And so sometimes it'll just be my husband and the kids at soccer practice, for example, if I have other stuff going on. And what we have discovered is when Matt is doing his, you know, feminist fathering thing by being a, you know, solo parenting at times, the moms in the group chats won't let him in the group chats. They exclude him because he's a man. And so he's out there doing what women want, which is being a very active and involved father and women are making it hard for him. They're discriminating against him. I just think that's messed up. - What's their argument? - They don't give an argument. They just don't include him. They don't give him their numbers. There are group chats they don't invite him to. They reach out to me, but not him. But he wants to be involved in the planning and getting the kids together for play dates and stuff, but they exclude him. - Wow. Well, I'm glad you've called that out here and I hope some people involved in it are hearing it and maybe change their behavior. And they're more welcome. - Yeah, don't be sexist. (laughing) - Sarah? - I have a rant about myself. - Good. - So I have what I'm sure there is some diagnosis for and it's called being late anxiety. Like the idea of being late really drives me crazy. It gives me heart palpitations because I think being late is the ultimate sign of disrespect you are taking away from someone else. The one thing you can never give back, which is their time. Nevertheless, today I was late for this recording because I got the time wrong and I have taken 30 minutes from Liz Brunig's life. So I need listeners to tell me what I am supposed to do when I'm late. Sometimes I try not to be very hard. But when you are late, what can you do to give someone back their most valuable resource, time? - First of all, we don't blame you for being late. It was really okay. So forgive yourself. I wanna say that, but I also, I can relate so much to what you're saying. I have, even when there's not someone that I'm disrespecting, like it just almost doesn't matter. It's just the act of like knowing that there's a certain time I need to be in a place. It gives me, I start to get so much anxiety. It drives my wife crazy, because she's just like, relax, we're okay. Like we can get there. No one's gonna be upset. No one's gonna be mad at us. The restaurant's gonna be okay. They don't need us to be seated at this certain moment. But no, it gives me, it gives me great, and guilt. And I agree with you, like guilt is a big part of it. So yeah, I hear you, but don't worry. You are totally forgiven, I promise. I wanna rave about something I did not expect to rave about, which is driverless vehicles. They are becoming a big thing in my part of Los Angeles. I always, when I didn't have my car, I would use the ride sharing apps. And finally, on the advice of someone, I decided to try the driverless car. It's amazing. I thought I would be taking us into the world of the Jetsons, and I don't wanna go down that road. I don't wanna take employment away from people who drive Ubers and Lyfts, but you get in the car. The temperature is set for where your last ride was. You can start playing like relaxing music. You can sit in the front seat and just roll your chair back and sleep. With no one else to talk to, it's so great and peaceful. So anyway, it could be-- - Humans are the problem, that's what I'm hearing. - I don't know, 'cause I love humans, and I've always loved talking to people I meet like in Ubers and Lyfts. So this is really, this is a tension point for me. I like engaging people, but wow, like just having a car drive you around safely, it's great. That's my rave for the day. I still like people, and I'm sorry to the author who wrote the piece about brooding and all about human connection, because I do really value that as well. Sarah and Liz, thank you as always for being here. Thanks also to the team for putting this show together every week. Left Right & Center is produced by Mar-K Green, our executive producer is Arnie Cyple. The show is recorded by Michael Stark and mixed by Nick Lamponi. Todd M. Simon composed our theme music. Left Right & Center is a co-production of KCRW and Fearless Media, and we're distributed by PRX. I'm David Green. Thank you for being here. Come back next week. We'll be here again for more Left Right & Center. (upbeat music) Download and subscribe at kcrw.com/lrc, the KCRW app, or wherever you find podcasts. Left Right & Center is produced and distributed by KCRW. (upbeat music) From PRX.