Trump Royale

[Music] Hello and welcome to another episode of Queens, Kings and Dastardly Things. The show that's full of royal surprises and we hope plenty of intrigue too. I'm Robert Hardman, royal biographer and Daily Mail columnist and I'm joined as ever by the eminent royal historian Professor Kate Williams, Hello Kate. Hello Robert. And for those of you listening, nothing much has changed. However, some of you I know are now watching because we have this rather splendid summits say rather ghoulish, perhaps a little gaudy set around us, but nothing is going to be different in terms of what we discuss. Actually, I think something is going to be different Robert and that's we're going out on Mondays now, not Thursdays. Put that in your diary. Absolutely. We're talking visits and especially state visits, aren't we? We're very excited because we are recording this and they run up to the arrival of Donald Trump. Well, I'm not so excited about the advent of Trump, but certainly it's going to be an interesting moment to see a full state visit at Windsor Castle. We've seen Trump before with the Queen, with Elizabeth II, but this is Charles III on a world stage. Well, I mean, the King is now quite a damp hand at these things. He's done a few, but I think there is nothing quite like the arrival of the most powerful man on earth, President of the United States. So I do think it's worth having a good look, not just at the Trump visit, but also the sort of history of Windsor White House rapport, because if you look back over the last part, certainly since the Second World War, some of the great moments in transatlantic diplomacy, they have been meetings between monarchs and presidents, aren't they? Well, that's it. I mean, Elizabeth II met every U.S. President didn't she apart from Lyndon Johnson, I think. She did. She met, actually, she met 14 because she met, she didn't meet Johnson, as you say, but she met her first president as a princess. She met Harry Truman on her trip to the States in 1951. And when she went on her first state visit in 1957, and obviously the host them was, was, was Eisenhower, but she actually met retired president Hoover. So her, her, her telly of presidents met Prince Shaken and, and presidential chitchat. It was actually 14 presidents. 14 presidents. And I don't think anyone in history has ever met 14 U.S. presidents. I was going to beat it. And I, I also have that story about when she went as a princess and she was photographed so often that there were bits of camera glass all over her clothes, because the, the cameras, the bulbs were bursting. There's just so popular the flash bulbs. So the charm visit is at Windsor. And so often we expect state visit to be at Buckingham Palace. But frequently we've seen them U.S. state visits take place at Windsor, haven't we? Yeah. I mean, most state visits, as you say Kate, they tend to take place at Buckingham Palace because state visitors, you know, like to be in London and Buckingham Palace as the most famous residents in the world. But Buckingham Palace at present is a building site and will be for the next couple of years. A good looking building site. You know, it looks good from the front. I think anyone passing wouldn't realize that it's like everything's being renovated. Yes. And in front of all the building work, they're kind of getting around in stages. So as you look at the front, the front is fine now. It's actually, if you're looking at the front, it's the right hand bit that's got the builders in at the moment. And that, that happens to be the bit where the royals live and also where you put your state visitors. So that's out of action. So the trumps are coming to Windsor. And Donald Trump is the first US president to have two state visits. So his last one, he was greeted at Buckingham Palace. So this one kind of makes sense to have it somewhat different. And he'll be thrilled to be at Windsor Castle. Because the other thing, Windsor Castle, it's very secure. I mean, as a castle's tend to be. This one is the largest inhabited castle in the entire world. But apart from its vast ramparts and towers and everything, it's got the very well fortified park around it. So you can fly in the president, and you can have a lovely time, and you would have no idea whether any protests or not, because you don't really tend to see the outside. Well, when you're in Windsor, so it serves its purpose very well. So if it were Buckingham Palace, there could be gigantic protests all along the mall, but at Windsor, it would be a bit different. I think the level of opposition and hysteria around Trump that existed back in 2018, 2019, it sort of dissipated. Because he's been here before. I wonder, I think there's still be big protests. There'll be protests, but the global situation, I think, I think they may be. Yeah, but I don't think they won't get anywhere near Trump, is what I'm saying. No, he won't hear them. He'll be locked up in William the Conqueror's castle. Hiding up in the turret. Well, he will be staying in the turret. They do normally put state visitors. They get a tower, all of their rooms. So where do they put them? Because obviously I've been on Windsor Castle many times. I love Windsor Castle. As you say, it was built by William the Conqueror, along with other forts, including the Tower of London, essentially, to get the English under control, taking marvelous castle. I love it, but I haven't been to all the secret extra bits that you've probably been to. So what is this accommodation, the tower? Yeah, well, we often hear about that phrase, "Send so-and-so" to the tower. Well, yeah, when you're at Windsor, you do get your own tower. It'll be one of the towers on the south side that look out over Windsor Castle. Over Windsor Great Park. I mean, you've got the, I think, one of the great views in Britain, if not Europe, if not the world, which is the long walk, the famous three-mile thoroughfare that leads all the way to that statue of George III in the far distance. So normally, if they were, when you've not got a president in that turret, who's in there, is it just a guest room? It's a special guest suite, and it's kept for very special occasions. And state visitors, they'll get their own suite of rooms, so get two bedrooms, two bathrooms, their own staff. And everything gets unpacked. The minute you arrive, everything is immediately set up on by teams of housekeepers who unwrap everything. And there's a whole housekeeping department. They're called H-bronch. H-bronch of the Royal household, and they specialize in making people feel very welcome. I bet they are good. Interesting, isn't it, that Windsor's got 1,200 rooms, and that's actually bigger than Buckingham Palace, which has got 775 rooms. So do you think the Secret Service go in early to Windsor Castle to sweep it? I think there are a few places in the south of England where Donald Trump would be safer than inside Windsor Castle. Over the years, it's needless to say, people have counted all sorts of ghosts. There'd be so many great royals living in Windsor Castle, so many lives. So if you were to be haunted, you could definitely be haunted by a lizard at the first, or Henry VIII, wandering around. So plenty of royals were there. I think you might well get a good child's the first sighting, because that's where he's buried plus his head. That's why he's been, they didn't know for a long time. They lost child's the first body, because it was stuffed there after he was executed, really. So no one knew, so it's stuffed in the royal vault, and no one knew about it until they were doing some work under St George's Chapel during the time of George IV. And they found Henry VIII there, James Seymour, Charles I, so it was a great big thing. On track minus a head, so that must be Charles I. Well, who knows what apparition will appear before Trump, and Charles I. Charles I popped up saying, don't execute me. Well, whichever ghost it is, they will definitely have a lovely room with a lovely view. But then of course we turn our attention to how do they arrive? Because traditionally a state visitor will arrive in a formal procession, carriage procession, and it's always a wonderful elaborate thing. We saw it quite recently with the Mac cross arriving, and there's a carriage procession with the household cavalry, all the coaches and carriages from the royal views. I mean, it's a hell of a show, and the tradition is that the state visitor sort of trots up in the carriage through the up the high street, cheering crowds, and then they go into the park, on to the long walk, and up into the castle that way. Now, I don't think that will happen with Trump simply because no U.S. president has ever taken part in a carriage procession. It's only to do with Donald Trump himself. It's just that the Secret Service are paranoid about security, and they're not going to want a U.S. president to prove it. Well, exactly. I mean, normally the U.S. president has to travel around in something that sort of rocket-proof, bomb-proof. No, not a twenty-third of a carriage. Yes, I mean, well, you're protected by a bit of sort of wood leather and a bit of fancy-gilded paintwork. It's not going to cut the mustard, so we could safely say Trump will not have that sort of a procession, but it was a lovely scene when Barack Obama arrived in 2016. It was just after the Queen's 90th birthday, and he wanted to time his farewell trip element to Europe with the Queen's birthday. He wanted to be the first world leader at a Witcher happy 90th birthday, and so he actually flew in the day after her 90th into Windsor in the presidential helicopter. And the Queen, when she heard he was coming, thought, "That was very nice. We'll go out and pick him up, and Philip and I'll go meet them." And the Secret Service said to Buckingham Palace, "Absolutely, you know, ways that happening. The president can only be driven by the Secret Service." Queen thought she and Philip were going, "Pick him up, pick him up, pick him up." They thought, "We're in their car. We'll pop out, and we'll pick you up." You made all the trouble. The Secret Service drivers were banned by the Secret Service. Exactly, and the Secret Service said no way, and there was this sort of ding-dong, and I found out all about this one. I was writing my biography of the Queen, and I actually spoke to the US staff at Organiser Triton. They said there was a very serious row over which car they were going to go in, and who was going to drive it. And the Buckingham Palace was quite adamant. The Queen and Prince Philip wished to drive the president, and that was that, and they were the host. And this dilemma went right the way up to President Obama himself, and he had to decide. And they said, "Look, Mr. President, the Queen and Prince Philip want you to go in their car, and we think you should go in our car. What do you think?" And Obama thought, "Well, it obviously means quite a lot to them, so I'll go in their car." So he flew in, and for the only time, it was in time, their presidency. The president, first lady, would driven not in the beast, not in the bulletproof bombproof, whatever. They would driven in a Range Rover, driven by Prince Philip. And the Queen had the passenger planes. It was a bummed out of the kids. Yeah, I mean, it was, I think it was Obama and the Queen in the back, and Prince Philip at the wheel and Michelle Obama in the front. Or off they too, like a sort of trip around the park. So it's just like those times when you're all car-sharing on holiday, and then you all have disagreements about who goes in which taxi. So it goes right to the same. Yeah, no, I mean, actually, when they arrived, I'm pretty sure, Obama mentions it in his memoirs, and he says, "I mean, are you flew in?" And the Queen says something like, "Oh, I'm sure there's some rule about who sits where, but sit wherever you like." And that was the tone of it. And they had a very cordial, very friendly lunch, because don't forget, by this point, the Obama's and the Queen and Prince Philip. I mean, they've seen a lot of each other over his presidency. And so it was that sort of a rapport. And this will be for the royal family. I mean, they've now met Trump several times, because he came first in 2018, Kapatee with the Queen, 2019, came on his first state visit, met all the royal family then. Since then, of course, he met Prince William in Paris just after the reopening of Notre Dame. They got on very well there. So, you know, there will be an element of sort of nice to see you back again, Mr. President. But nonetheless, you know, these things, it's still a huge deal for both sides. It's a huge deal for the British government who are already in charge of this visit. I mean, yes, the royals lay on the show. So, when it comes to state visits, this is not under the say of the monarch. No, because the king doesn't say, "Oh, I know, I'd love to see some big governments." Yes, I'd love to see my old charm who's the President of Exit. And it's the same with that gang state visits. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of places that the monarch would love to go, but he can't just go, "I think I fancy a week in Spain." You know, the foreign office will say, "Well, actually, what really matters at the moment is on bilateral relationship with Indonesia." So, you're off there. You know, there is a thing called the Royal Visits Committee that meets every six months. It's formed of people from the palace, Downing Street, the foreign office. And between them, they work out not just where the king and queen go, but also where the other members of the family should go. So, where should the Prince and Princess of Wales go? Where should Princess Ang go? All this stuff. But Kate, of course, there is really nothing as big as the arrival of Potus, the President of the United States. So, tell me, what happens in a state banquet? Let's paint that picture. Well, there's a real sense of anticipation, Kate, because everybody knows that this is going to be one of the great dinners, one of the great parties, if you like, of their life. With possible exception, the Royal Family, who do this quite a lot. So, for the state visitor, you know, they'll be getting ready up in their tower, in this case, the Trumps, but whoever it is, making sure they're absolutely, they're looking immaculate. And then, a member of the Royal Family, usually, possibly the Prince of Wales, will come to escort them down to join the sort of the other guests. Always the sort of certain regulars you are. So, you always ask the Prime Minister and Plus Spouse, usually by the leader of the opposition. There's a Davies boycotting at this area. Yeah, the leader of the Lib Dems is boycotting it, which I think is rather churnish given that Lib Dem leaders have sat down at Royal Banquets with all sorts of, you know, appalling leaders over the years. I mean, you think back to the Liberal leader, David Steele, not only sat down for dinner with the Chow Cheskas, but gave Chow Cheska a dog. So, I mean, Chow Cheska, it was a hell of a lot more questionable than Donald Trump. So, I think it's just a sort of slightly adolescent stunt by a Davie. His argument is that Donald Trump could solve the Israel Guards' situation. Yeah, I mean, he's obviously doing it for a fact. You know, that's fair enough. It'll make way for somebody else to come. So, Odea, what a pity. No, a Davie. I suspect Trump will all manage to get by on that in the mix. They will also try and include people who have both American citizens and British citizens who have a particular rapport, a particular connection with the US. I mean, that could be anything from business leaders, media figures, famous authors, famous broadcasters. I mean, it was interesting when the Maccrons came, for example, on their state visit in July of 2025. They invited Elton John, because, you know, he's, he's somebody who loves France, who has a house in France, who has connections there. So, from what's Elton John at their party? Well, I think one of the few, four of the few parties Elton John's been to, where he hasn't been asked to play the piano at the end of it. I think it's only a Prince Harry's wedding. It was sort of a, could you play us a tune-out? Yeah, but on that occasion, he didn't have to, but so, yeah, you'll have, as I say, it's the longest table in Britain when it's fully laid. The table in St George's Hall is so long, and it takes days to put it together, because it's sort of, it's several years. Half of the magic, isn't it? It's a lot of, it's effectively a sort of table of tables. They've got these wonderful leaves, and it's all one piece, but it has to be slotted together, and then it has to be polished. And there's this wonderful moment, a day or two before the banquet, when you see the raw household staff literally going over it. And they have sort of dusters on their feet, and they're walking up and down the table, polishing it. And then they have to lay it out with, and it's, from memory, it's, I think it's, but it's 131 or 132 guests. We have to lay out each individual place. Half of the measured. 17 inches between each seat. And the raw household staff actually have a ruler, and they go down measuring each one, and you have to get exactly the right numbers of knives, fork, spoons. And everybody has to have six glasses as well, because you have to have a champagne glass for the toast, and then you have to have a glass for white wine, a glass for red wine, a glass for champagne again when putting a glass for water. Is that six? I'm trying to toss up here, hang on. Bed, white, champagne, water. Actually, I think it's time to five now, because I think there's no port at the table. They've now moved the port to be served with coffee and liqueurs afterwards. So I think they might be down to five glasses, but it's still, there's a lot of glasses. It's a bit of a sort of, you know, lots of people have this sort of tension, this anxiety beforehand. And I know I felt it. You sit down and you think, right now, I've got to get this right. And you always remember, you start from the outside with your knives and forks, but I mean, there are so many bits and pieces in front of you. Everyone has their own sort of butter dish and their own little sort of this and that sort of pepper and everything. You own butter dish. Oh, yeah, yeah. You have, it's all beautifully done. But you don't, you want to, you want to kind of get it right. And the difference between a dinner at Windsor and dinner at Buckingham Palace is obviously Buckingham Palace is a U-shaped table. So it's quite clear. There's a top table and at the top of the top table, you're obviously going to have the monarch and the head of state. The table at Windsor is just one very, very long single table. And they're in the middle. They're in the middle. And what you will have is you will have the king on the middle as you look at it from the balcony. If you look at it from the east end, the king will be on the right hand side. The queen will be on the left hand side and the king will have the president of the United States or whatever it is, the special guest on his right. And then to the other side, in the case of Trump, it'll be the Princess of Wales almost certainly. And then across immediately opposite on the other side of the table, you'll have the queen next to the first lady in this case. And on the first lady's other side will be the Prince of Wales. It's interesting the whole principle that you often have a formal parties of lady gentlemen is broken at this point. On a state visit, it has to be because more important than getting, you know, boy girl, boy girl or whatever your sort of ritual is. The most important thing is that the number one visitor, either president and the number one host, either king, have to sit next to each other. So the president, so President Trump will be between the king and the Princess of Wales, Catherine. That's what I would expect. I mean, they may change it all, who knows. And then the other thing, everyone would be given a thing called the program. Now, I brought one along for you to have a look at it. You brought one along, look at that. Yeah, well I found, because when I was writing my biography, I wasn't out this one, but I brought this one because this is a program from a Windsor State banquet. This one happened to be for the Emir of Qatar a few years ago, but I was writing Queen of Our Times. Yeah, I was writing my biography of the late Queen and I managed to get my hands on one of these. So if you have a look at it, it sort of starts off with the royal procession because as they go into dinner, there is a sort of formal procession. It's a beautiful booklet with the menu, with the royal procession and the. Who walks in, because all the other guests are sort of after they've had their sort of drinks, so they're sort of shoot in, could you please take your seats. And then when everybody else is at the table, there is the royal procession and incomes led by the King and the State Visitor, followed next by the Queen, the First Lady, and everyone else in a procession. So many of you here that you have bound more than a list and a music program, the marriage of Figaro and Elizabethan Cernet, the pipe program. And then a long description of who all the other people, so long guest list here. A full guest list, so you can think, "Oh, who's that over there? They look vaguely familiar." It's like a Davey, no, it can't be, it's not here. Is that a little John? You can check in the list, there's a guest list. And finally, when you get to the end, there is very handily a huge great suggestion. It's a huge great seating plan that drops down, and you can actually see where everybody is, where everyone's sitting. It's interesting, the royals are in large type. So the non royals are in, I think we say normal type with me, and then it's bold for the princess royal. It's bold for the royal, so you can see where you're in this royal, it's just the Cornwall. So Robert, you're looking at this, the big seating plan, there's about, what is it, about over 100 people here? So, what is it called in 30 people? 130 people, that's how you can get around the state banquet table. Now, that's a lot of people to seat on time, and also a lot of people to serve. How do you, how do they make sure that everyone's got their food, and at the same time? It's like, you know what, you don't really go to a wedding, and everyone's sort of eating at different times. Well, it's absolutely right, they have this fabulous army of footmen, and women, or even the women are called footmen. And they, a lot of them come out of retirement, a lot of them are part-timers, who perhaps work for the royal household before. It's kind of all hands on deck for a state banquet. And they all ensure that everybody gets their food at the same time, because you really don't want, you know, the king to sort of start tucking in, and when someone at the far end has to sort of wait 20 minutes to get their food. So everything lands at the same time. One of the upsides of the Terrible Windsor Fire of 1992 was actually it burned away a lot of Victorian modernization to reveal the old medieval kitchens, which are right next to the halls, so that the upshot of that is the kitchens are much nearer, the dining room, which means the food is hotter. So it goes from the oven to the table, much greater speed, so you get your food piping hot, which I wear wherever you're sitting. Well, that's interesting, isn't it, because the Windsor Fire was so heartbreaking for the queen, it broke out on her wedding anniversary, and this is one benefit. The other thing, of course, is you've got the, as well as the food, you've got the drink, and they do come up with some absolute fabulous, you know, pro. Some of the best clara, the best burgundy. There's plenty of alcohol. There is plenty of alcohol. Now, sometimes, so, I mean, for example, what I've got here is, which I've shown you. I mean, that was the state that the M.A. of Qatar, who doesn't drink. Donald Trump doesn't drink. It doesn't really matter. The guests can be completely tea-total, but they will still wheel out the very best wines for all those who. And they'll pour some soda for those who don't want it until. No, and actually, most, I mean, the king drinks very little wine, Princess Anne, for example, doesn't drink wine at all. So, I mean, there are a lot of guests who will be having, you know, water, busy water, orange juice, whatever it is. You do say in advance whatever your choice is, so that they know. So, they're not going to come rushing out with a decanter full of Premier Crue and start pouring it. And you put your hand over there and you're going, "Oh, frankly, sorry. I don't drink." They will know in advance. They have lists around the serving tables that are around the outside. It literally says, "For each guest, you know, certain says a vegetarian, or they're having theirs, or they can't eat that." I mean, they can cope with just about every intolerance, allergy, whatever, as long as you tell them in advance. Since coming to the throne, King Charles thought, "Well, you know, it's really nice for people to have a chance to sort of mingle afterwards and chat." And, you know, maybe we could get away from the table a little more speedily. What can we do? So, he removed a course called dessert, which is a basically fruit. It's not pudding. You still have your pudding. You dessert, which was sort of fruit dish, that's gone. And it means that people then go through rather more speedily. But one thing he's also added is one of the, one of the footmen, who's a lady footman, is also a demon cocktail maker. And in a previous life had been quite a successful cocktail creator. And suggested doing a sort of themed cocktail for each state banquet. And the King thought this was a wonderful idea. So now, at each state banquet, there will be the after dinner cocktail, which tends to sort of. A lot of thought goes into it. He has to resemble the sort of the colors of the visiting nation. And also, it has to have some sort of connections. So, for example, when Macron came, she came up with something called the ontont. And it had sort of bits of red, white, and blue. And there is berries that had sort of connections with France. I don't know what they'll come up with with Donald Trump. Whatever he is, Donald Trump won't drink it, because he's tea-total. But I'm sure it'll have a sort of splash of Jack Daniels and a bit of blue, something, and a bit of red, something. And probably a thick layer of, you know, double cream on top, just to give it a sort of that red, white, and blue look. But, you know, these are all the little touches. And it's a good talking point as well. And also, having had all this lovely clarinet and burgundy and everything else, probably the last thing you want, if you're trying to behave and not slow your valves, you really want to start knocking back cocktails after dinner. State visits now, sounder, a large operation, but they're lightweight compared to the tutors. They're lightweight compared to 30, 40 courses, being forced to eat whale and dolphin, and Henry VIII's favourite, a chicken riding a pig. So, anyone attending now, thinking there's a bit too much food, they should look up to their chewed-er ancestors and think they ate seriously. They knew how to die. They knew how to eat a giant amount of food. Well, but, what do you think? Should we have our own cocktail, our own queens, kings, and dastly things cocktail? It would have to be the colour of blood right. - I have a few. - For those executions. Probably would. I'm certainly leaving the dastardly things to you, Kate. As behind us, you want a nice blood red cocktail. Well Robert, it's been fascinating, but that's all we've got time for today's Royal Banquet. And for more Royal intrigue and skull-duggery from the Normans to the noughties, keep joining us on queens, kings, and dastly things now on Mondays. And it's goodbye for me, Kate Williams. And for me, Robert Hardman, goodbye.