Trump LOSES IT Over Canada’s New European Alliance (Live from New York)

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Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com/save. Hey, everybody, Cassidy Hubbard here. This week on Anne Mom, we spoke with Grammy Award-winning musician Corinne Bailey-Ray about taking her kids on tour, becoming a widow at 29, and how she felt about having a home birth. Check out the latest episode of Anne Mom, wherever you get your podcasts. Please give a very warm welcome to the brilliant Jessica Tarlev and Scott Galloway. Okay, well, so today or tonight, we're going to do a few things in three parts. We're going to do sort of an abridged, raging moderates podcast, talk about the political environment. Then, we're going to talk about Justice Book, and then we're going to take. That's the name of the book. I disagree, winning arguments without losing friends. Okay, so we wanted to step back and talk about where we are politically, and I think the two biggest stories today in the news are AI and Canada, specifically Canada decided that it's an abusive relationship and hooking up with someone else. So, Jess would start there, AI anxiety. How do you think, or if and how do you think this AI anxiety might impact the midterms? Well, I want to start out by saying, thank you guys so much for coming and doing this. We've done this once before, and it was so fun, and it was in raging moderates infancy, and we just had two years anniversary, which feels like a milestone. It'll be fun to talk about the book. I want to talk about the politics, because the politics fuels the book anyway, but just an enormous thank you. You guys are the most incredible listener base, and so loyal, and we love all the feedback, even the mean comments, actually, which Scott is more sensitive about than I am, but. Because I get them, she doesn't. Jess is great, she should dump Scott. Let me just summarize every review seriously, really. Anyways. So, it feels as though AI is rapidly becoming the sleeper issue for the election, and it started off with data centers, and everyone was kind of like, what's going on here? And people were showing up at town halls and saying, "I don't want one in my backyard." Nimb being the whole thing. And then it started expanding, and they started talking on the hill about regulation. And what do we do? We have a moratorium on data centers, then moving up to, we're going to regulate superintelligence. And the whole time, the elected class on the Republican side was ignoring the voters, who said, "From the jump, we don't like this. We don't." And I think all of it has to do with a general anxiety about change, which happens when any big invasion comes into your life. But we were saying yesterday on raging moderates from the New New York Times poll that the only issue that Republicans had in advantage on was AI, but it was just two points. So within the margin of error, and then you look at that in the context of the fact that over 70% of Americans think that we've got to regulate it. And you look at what Trump is posting, you're going to be backwards and poor, full steam ahead, the Johnson Wong call. You got to think that this is a really big gift for Democrats. But my question to you about this is, how can they stick the landing? Because the answer isn't to regulate it into oblivion. It's to find some way to have the progress and the good stuff that comes with it and the innovation. And they're talking about being able to cure every kind of cancer with it, but make sure that people aren't rioting in the streets because data centers are showing up. And they think that there's a 10 to 20% chance that we're all going to die in the next few years. So what does that dying look like? Well, I'll come back to what dying looks like. There's a sweet spot of regulation. And that is, we still have opiates. We still use them. They're still actually a very productive drug. But we've decided to regulate them and not prescribe them to people who appear to have signs of addiction and not to have an economic incentive around increasing more and more opiates. We are finally starting to increase social media. Big tech is a net good for society. Fossil fuels are net good for society. So our pesticides, but we have an EPA and an FDA. And there is no equivalent organization for AI. As you are, I'm getting called, and I'm bragging, but it's true because I'm desperate for your affirmation. I'm getting called every day by every network to come on and talk about AI. What's going on? And the reality is, and this is what is creating so much anxiety, is I have no idea. I don't know if something bad has happened and they don't want to tell us, and they're so freaked out that they're slowing down. I don't know if they see this as a means of regulatory capture by convincing the government to force them to just tap the brakes while all the open-weight models that are catching up have to slam the brakes. I don't know if this is a PR stunt going into their IPO, can basically catastrophize and get a ton of headlines. They haven't stopped, by the way, as freaked out as they are, JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs are still calling all their high net worth clients and telling them to get their checkbook out for the IPO. So clearly they're not that freaked out. This is the equivalent of, it's the anxiety of having no adult in the room. We all have kids, or most of us have kids, and what you realize is that your kids actually appreciate, over the medium and long term, not in the short term, card rails. They want to know when they're supposed to go to bed. They want to know that they have to brush their teeth. They want to know that they have a certain boundaries. This is the equivalent right now. Same Moderna, a research scientist in Moderna announced on CNN, the COVID vaccine that's been distributed. I think there's a 10% likelihood it converts to this rabid pathogen that becomes infectious and kills everyone, ends humanity, and everyone goes, "Well, this is just some, it's not no kid that's been there eight weeks." And then the CEO of Moderna came out and said, "Well, he might have a point." And then the head of the CDC went, "Shut up, just keep throwing the vaccine out there." The important thing is to get your stock price up. The CDC, let's talk about the CDC, which I think was one of the most respected brands in the world, incredibly deep pool of scientists who've decided not to go to work for Pfizer and Merck, take a cut and pay because they want to have meaning in their lives. And if the greatest threat to disease or to the control of disease right now is a super virus, and this goes to your question, being developed in a lab of a frontier model. In any responsible administration, we would have scientists, we would have social policy experts, we'd have lawyers embedded in these companies saying, asking these models, create a super virus, and then seeing what it says, it may be slowing it down for 30 or 60 days. We have never had a multi-trillion dollar industry that's had no regulation. And as a result, these companies are incredibly fragile. If it gets out, if the lights here, the signal is just for five minutes, across live vaccine to Navinew, are weaponized by a bot and shut down, and there's a bunch of accidents and God forbid injury or death, there's a decent chance. These companies might be shut down for it. If these things go rogue for a few days, the media is so, and the populace is so angry and so waiting, and so on a knife's edge right now. These companies could lose 700, 800, 2 trillion, they lost 150 billion on Monday. So we need to dispel the myth that's been foemened by Republicans and Silicon Valley that shareholder value and regulation or oxymorons. China is regulating the hell out of AI, and that's why 75% of their pop to us trust it. They won't let a bot pretend to be a person for a greater than a certain amount of time, as they don't want Sarasai Lannister convincing young men, they should kill themselves. They don't want kids on AI. They don't want companies using AI for purposes that the CCP hasn't approved. So it's the anxiety that's being caused here. In my opinion, the culprits are not the CEOs of these companies. I have worked with CEOs in the biggest companies in the world. They will all do anything including sleep with their sister to get the shareholder value up. And that is their job. And then it's our job to regulate them and collect taxes so we can fund the Navy and food stamps. To a certain extent, they're doing their job. There is no leadership at a federal level regulating them, which is what we need, in terms of how it ends humanity. The most popular one is it creates a super virus that convinces the virus not to burn out. Viruses typically burn out because they don't want to kill their hosts. But it could be so many different things. It could be weaponizing young men who have been on an aircraft carrier too long and convincing them with a bot that they're in love with an avatar and then telling them to take down the drone defense systems. It could be convincing young men that their parents are the enemy and creating a cult. And one night we wake up and our kids have just lost it. It could be convincing different nuclear authorities that missiles are in the air. And you have three minutes to respond and launch your own missiles. There's just so many scenarios here. It's probably something more boring, quite frankly, or probably happens with a series of thugs. But as Jeffrey Hinton said, there's also an upside. We could just as easily use these for defensive measures. I was with the head of UCSF, the Medical Center last night. He was talking about their ability to reduce sepsis just using basic AI. So there's a ton of upside. But I would argue, and I'll wrap up my word salad here, that the anxiety isn't the fear of AI. It's the absence of leadership at a federal level that we have taken for granted and every other technical innovation that eventually gets implemented. And there doesn't seem to be any implementation here. [APPLAUSE] You brought this up when you were chatting yesterday or the day before that California actually has been leading the way. And trying to regulate AI in a way that still continues for the economic prosperity that they need in the state that's benefited the most from AI, but that they can be responsible about it. So they put in these regulations, and it went from everything from protecting kids on social media, which everyone agrees about. If Josh Hawley has a bill about that, right? And that's part of this AI cloud conversation up until these rules for AI companies themselves about what kind of transparency and self-policing they need to do. Are you saying you say, I don't blame the CEOs? And they have been giving interviews for over a year, saying, please, regulate us. How much do you think those then knowing that Trump would never do it? Whether he openly said it, or that's just in the background like odds are, this guy isn't going to do it. It's not his style. And also, it's a consensus, and especially the Democrats want it. If there are a few Republicans buzzing around saying, we actually need this, or a few people running in swing state races. He'll leave mic Rogers out to dry, or Ken Paxton, and just say, you know, I know about it. What did he say? I'm like, you just need the highest IQ president of all time. And that's me. So do you really think that there are honest brokers about this, these CEOs? And what do you like from California? Are the honest brokers now? By the way, think about what a weird thing this is. What if in 1945, and Dresden Horowitz went to Oppenheimer and said, I'm going to fund a company called Oppenheimer Co. And we're going to sell nuclear bombs into Proctor and Gamble in the UAE. And we're going to make a shit ton of money. I can't imagine a higher margin product than a nuclear bomb in 1946. I think a lot of nations would pay a lot of money for that. And these guys are claiming this is more powerful than nuclear bombs. If Truman or Roosevelt were president, I think there's a better than 50% chance we would nationalize AI right now. But the story of American business has been a bias towards shareholder value and capturing that shareholder value across an increasingly small group of people and then socializing all the danger in the existential risk because of regulatory capture. But these guys, I mean, I'm a capitalist. I think it's your job as a CEO to make as much profit as possible and to be as aggressive as possible. And it's the government's job to regulate you and then tax you, such that we can reinvest and ensure that there aren't that many externalities. But I get, do you remember Shell Sandberg? We're open to regulation. - We welcome it. - We welcome it. - Yeah, find me just below the amount that we made last quarter though. 17 billion sounds good if we made 18 billion. - And meanwhile that hundreds of lawyers trying to get in the way of all regulation, this is what Dario even suggested was embedded evaluators. We don't need embedded evaluators. We need laws. Yeah, here's what we need. I was in a fraternity at UCLA and the Homeowners Association got sick of all the loud music during rush and met with us and said, you need to cut it off a midnight. And another boast, I was president of the Inter fraternity council which I realized was the weakest flex in the world. I was king of the jarheads. And I said, I can't control these guys. And the head of UCPD was in the meeting and he said, I have an idea. And the next night at 12 1 a.m. he went to the four fraternities who were still playing music. And he arrested the president of the fraternity and had them spend the night in jail. Next night, no music, silent. Until we create a series of incentives, it just, I just find it so obnoxious that these individuals claim these bots are sentient. Sharon Wippel, I think her name is, who talked about this in pod, gay rights activists, all American lacrosse player was mulled by two dogs 25 years ago. And the two owners of the dogs were found reckless. And one went to prison, one died in prison. Sam, Dario, these dogs, are you bots, kill people? You're going to fucking prison boss. And guess what? This shit will stop. They will figure it out. The notion that somehow they don't have control of these things. And they're not responsible. They're making their own decisions. I just don't buy it. I think there's always an off switch. I think there's always a wizard behind the curtain. And if you threaten these guys with fines or putting the companies out of business or threatening their IPO or perhaps even jail, I just get the sense these geniuses are going to figure it out. [APPLAUSE] Let's move on to our next topic. Let's do a pallet cleanser before we move on to carny and the EU. And this has got to be quick. Sydney Sweeney. [LAUGHTER] Very attractive. Who I would put in a campaign for sports betting. So you would think this was a good idea? I would think it would be the idea, as old as time, to use a hot woman to attract people to a product where you mostly want men to sign up for it. I don't see looks, so I can't relate to that. Say more. About exactly how attractive she is. So you think this is much to do about nothing? And I think that we are in such a perpetual outrage cycle. And if it's a slow news day, because keyboard warriors don't want to talk about AI and the end of humanity, and they don't find carny as interesting as we do, that they're going to get upset about Sydney Sweeney, who has capitalized quite nicely on a lot of this outrage. She came right off the American Eagle, Good Jean situation, and was like, oh, I'm going to go straight for this. Which I'm sure she's getting very good advice that this is where she goes. And she's an investor in the company on top of it. She knows exactly what she's doing. She's doing her due diligence. I read somewhere that she had made comments about knowing how long your shelf life is, right? And looks fade, I hear, not for either of us, but as time marches on. And I watched, what was it called the house made? By the way, we just took pictures. They took one of me and they're like, just come on. That's not true. It's only because it's my book party. They took a lot of Scott. They just don't want to annoy you. I watched the movie where she's basically naked the whole time. It's great what's going on there. I'm sorry, what's the name of that movie? Is that what it was called the house made? Yeah, I mean, Amanda Saferead, also attractive. So yeah, fake outrage cycle. It's like a summer story, but it's dribbling into the post-labor. It's like a shark or we are dating trends that don't actually exist. If she was a non-white gay Democrat, no one would be saying a goddamn word. Your girl boss, sex work is fine. Make money. Unless you're a white female mag of Republican. This is total bullshit. This is why moderates turn away from Democrats. Let's go into Canada and carnage. [MUSIC PLAYING] Support for the show comes from Soul. Soul is a wellness brand that makes delicious, hemp-derived CBD and THC products designed to make feeling good, simple. Soul's new mood gummies have precise dosing, clean ingredients, and formulations designed for predictable effects, so you can choose how you want to feel while staying in control. You might be in the mood for a bright, social, and energizing buzz. With uplift gummies, you get three milligrams of Sativa, THC, and CBG, perfect for daytime plans or beating the afternoon slump. When it's time to relax, the mellow gummies deliver three milligrams of Indica THC and CBN, ideal for cozy nights and fully unplugging. 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It appears that after being in an abusive household, the EU has decided to adopt Canada. What are your thoughts about this and how do you think this plays out? I feel like it happened fast that we were talking about this latest iteration of the trade war. It had been leaking in, but really just had a fever pitch, what, three, four weeks ago. As you were returning from Scott Free August, you came back a week early. I thought, "Okay, this is bad," and there were still some people who knew what they were talking about saying, "There's a chance we'll get a deal before Labor Day and it goes into a fact." I know that some of the tariffs were already in, and I thought, "Well, that would be nice if we sorted this out because it's not fun to fight with your siblings, especially when there's an enormous amount of trade on the line." They're just a wonderfully kind people that seem to want to help us all the time. They're delightful when you run into them in the wild. It just kept going, and I thought, "This is going to get really bad." Then it's like the rollercoaster just went over the peak, and Carney is hands up, six flags grade adventure. I'm going. It felt exciting and jarring, I guess, to see the conversations today, and that CEO summit that he had. I thought that was just brilliant. He got John Gray to come there from Blackstone to talk about what an economic sleeping giant canadae is and what they could do with all their natural resources. He has former conservative Canadian prime ministers, waxing lyrical about how smart he is and what good stewardship the country is under and what a good move. I mean, not surprising, I guess, that a former central banker would have a CEO summit and know that you're supposed to lead with that. Fast. I feel jolted and excited. How do you feel? I think this is sort of a evolution is playing out, but on a geopolitical level. Crow Magnum, man, was smaller, not as fast, not as strong, and basically, he kind of made the beat knee-and-the-talls, because Crow Magnums were better. They had better fine motor skills and they could communicate and cooperate better. In this is our full advantage as a species. You drop one person into the forest, that person's eaten by a bar of starbs in a few weeks. You put a few of them in there who can communicate, and they become the apex predator. The last 80 years, previous to World War II, economic growth and prosperity were a function of conquest. Since 1945, economic growth and prosperity have been a function of cooperation. Fewer deaths, fewer people dying in the hands of other people, more treaties, more respect of borders, more cooperation, more alliances, more multilateral bodies, been combined and in previous 2000 years. That has been incredibly fruitful for us. We've decided to go the other way. What nation have we strengthened our relationship with over the last two years? North Korea? And maybe Argentina? North Korea. North Korea. North Korea. All the important ones. Does that make sense? And we used to have cooperation in a threat or a spine or a central nervous system of good will between 70% of the world, which were the western democracies. We've decided that this is about power, about coercion and not about cooperation, and we're going down to 30%. And then there's Canada. I make predictions every week. My prediction tomorrow, I'm vivid. It'll be easy. Mark Carney is going to be a person of the year. He's probably going to win the Nobel Prize. He is soon to be. He is soon to be arguably the second most powerful man in the world. Trump will still be the most powerful, which is scary, because of commanding that size of military and that ability to deliver so much violence to the four corners of the earth. But Carney will be a close number, too. Carney is the leader that Europe has been begging for. And sometimes a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. And you think, just think about how crazy it is what's going on right now. America decided to come in and help Europe and turn back fascism, and it inspired 80 years of prosperity where we did the most genius thing, I think, in modern history. And that was who said, okay, you were so depraved Germany attempting to wipe out a race of people. In Japan, you were so inhuman to our POWs, into our military. This is what we're going to do. We're going to tax every American household and we're going to rebuild your economies and recognize what great cultures you have. And then we turned them into incredible out. That was the most visionary pivot to turn to basically that inspired this massive level of cooperation across democracies and across the most productive economies. And we've decided to go back. We've decided we'd rather be Neanderthals. In Tim's 9 or summed it up perfectly, we're in the midst of superpower suicide. In Canada, Canada is our biggest customer. People think it's China, people think it's the EU. Canada buys about $800 billion of the products right now. And all of that $800 billion, the Canadian spend on U.S. goods, is looking for another supplier right now. And I think a lot of companies across the EU who haven't had growth in 10 years are going to go, "Oh, I'll sell you lubricants and ball bearings and car parts and pharmaceuticals. Hey, check me out. I might be a little bit more expensive. The shipping costs will be more. But here's what I got going for me. I'm not America." So this is, it would be hard to imagine a more elegant way. Think about if you live in a neighborhood. And you have the biggest house. And you just start roaming around and wreaking havoc and beating up people that have been really good to you and making their lives harder and creating economic strain. and insulting them and yelling slurs at them in their spouses? I mean, eventually, the neighborhood turns on you. Eventually, they rise up. And that's what's happening now. We have decided to go from controlling 70% of the world's economy, or not controlling, but basically being the lead dog, if you will. We enforce freedom of navigation, we protect your waterways, you settle in dollars, we are on the side of trade. We come to your aid if any one of the 33% come for you militarily. You basically base your laws on us, base your democracy on us, watch our TV shows by tickets to our superheroes and tights with capes. You know, we have been the lead here, and we've said, no, we're going to go down to 33%, and just thinking of an economic terms. If you're an activist shareholder, you'll pay 20, 30% more to go from 49 to 51%, because that means you have control. We have given up majority control and leadership of democracies around the world. That is just an unbelievable, the greatest transfer in geopolitical power is happening now, and not that slowly. And that's from going from a majority shareholder stake to a minority shareholder stake. And the biggest winner hands down is China, who is now seen as a more responsible player, not to mention going after the state of hormones or closing it, who produces the most renewable, 70% of the EVs, 80% of the solar panels, 80% of the windmills, you guessed it, China. And isn't spending one and a half trillion dollars on a military that just pisses off and antagonizes everybody. This is Canada and Karni is leading, is essentially observing and trying to take advantage of what is essentially superpowers suicide. Any closing thoughts before we talk about your book? (audience laughs) Yeah, well, another question. So, I'm gonna unleash you again. So, if an EU it's open arms to Karni. - Yeah. - It's no secret that the EU economies have not been doing well. - Yeah. - I understand that there are some things that are just worth doing and you see this in the polling amongst Canadians, where they say our pride and standing with our country against America is worth whatever economic toll might be coming. But, is there a way of looking at this saying, okay, you're gonna go form this partnership? And it's meaningful, of course, and it sends a very clear message to Washington that everybody's getting together and you're not gonna be invited to certain parties. You're gonna get to come to the big ones, right? Not leaving the G7 and NATO and things like that. But how does this end up actually turning around their economies? 'Cause I imagine that has to be part of the plan, right? Karni is taking sweeping action, trying to all of the European leaders, the central bankers are thinking like, how do we get out of this mess? Maybe the UK comes back in. I know they certainly have had regrets since day one after Brexit. When people were like, holy shit, what did we do here? But, is it just gonna be an enormous struggle bus? Essentially, which is Europe plus Canada? Or does this lead to an economic renaissance for those countries? Well, trying to look at the glasses half full. The opportunity here is in 24 months to elect a candidate that says, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. And we're gonna form an alliance across a free trading zone across all of the democracies. And we're gonna have to really re-embrace and bear hug each other and bring down tariffs and just show a great deal more respect of each other, maybe expand NATO, maybe include certain Asian democracies. Ukraine? Ukraine. I mean, to basically say, okay, how do we kiss and make up times a million? And recognize we have, together we're unstoppable. We're just, we're indomitable as a unifying force. The whole is greater than some of its parts. And maybe give the UK where I live and excuse to do what I call a backset. And that is move back into the EU. And convince the EU that rather than having 27 veto votes, that they need to demonstrate some leadership and coordinate around technology, investment, tariffs, lower taxes at the same time inspire more technology investment. Whatever it might be, this might be an opportunity from the next president to say, all right, the democracies here, we, let's use this as an opportunity to have the mother of all NAFTA, NATO, and trade agreements, where we're just gonna agree that we should foment trade, have academic research, coordinate around AI. I think AI, quite frankly, is an opportunity to collaborate with China. I think China's probably worried about many of the same things we are. That's a big pretend. I don't think it's an opportunity to collaborate with Russia. I think Russia would rather see the entire world burn, even if it means sinching their own eyebrows. And just don't, I think they're very nihilist as evidence by what they have in the German energy. But this might be a huge opportunity for a candidate to say, all right, being an antagonist doesn't work. Let's take cooperation in the next level across democracies. And let's share military, economies, tariff agreements, trade agreements, bring tariffs way down, and just trying to do a much better job of proving what has been infinitely true, that the hole is greater than the sum of its parts. So I think it's a big opportunity because, hopefully, 25, 26 months isn't that long, but in the mean-- - Feels like forever. - Feels like forever. - Yeah. So with that, give us a just a brief predictions about the midterms. - Oh, I'm in a very good mood about the midterms. So are we gonna get too big to rig? That's the real question in the house. I'm inching towards it. Know how I love my polls and every new poll. We're getting closer, we're getting closer. - Texas, do you think Tallariko went to town? - Yeah, I know, he's so great. Wouldn't it be so nice, can we have nice things again? - Well, at the 90s, I can see why, I'm sure that we're all-- - Yes, 'cause we understand the heartland of Texas perfectly. - Yeah. - No, I think that one of-- - Party in the men's room for the Paxing Supporters. I'll see none of you there. - I think that where I'm willing to go, because this feels like a very public prediction, and I'm not used to doing that, that's your, you know, you love taking those big swings, and I like to hedge my bets a little. I think that one of the seats that we have no business winning, Iowa, Texas, or Alaska, we're going to get. And I think that'll be a big deal, and that we'll be able to hold the seats that we need to, but you guys know if you listen to the pod this week, I have massive new hamster anxiety now. And just the amount of times that now they're pitching a Chris Papas to come on, it's getting worse, right? They're spending a ton of money there, running against a Sanunu, which is gold standard brand there. Papas is too, and his father invented the chicken tender, or I mean, it's the most famous chicken tender, but it is delicious. When I go for the primary, my mom's come with me twice, and I make her go there, we get the tenders, and I like the turkey dinner, 'cause I like to think it's Thanksgiving every day. You guys didn't really use to do that. Anyway, if you are in Manchester, you should go check it out. So it's a chicken tender situation. Anyway, there's a lot of money being spent against him, and no one was paying attention to it. We just kind of thought, oh, this is fine, this isn't our column, and we'll have a panic attack about what's going on in Michigan. Like your panic attack actually should be broader than that. And Troy Jackson seems to be doing just fine and Susan Collins through in the-- - What do you think about Michigan? - I'm feeling better. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm feeling better. Hopefully he's gonna come on the pod. - Let me ask you another way. Any surprise victories from Republicans in the Sun races? - We're always-- - Surprise, if it would be anything, I think it would be this new hamcher situation. But for them, they're not even thinking about the victories, they're just trying to hold. - Yeah. - I mean, they're in complete defensive crouch, and I saw that, you know how the story, the plot line had been Maggie Inc. as in spending, you know, Trump's pack. They're diverting that money to other packs, so we don't notice that it's happening. And tens of millions of dollars is funneling into these races. So, you know, on alert, keep smashing that donate button on Act Blue. That's as good as my optimism is gonna get. - So we're gonna shift now, and we're gonna talk a little bit about Jessica's book. I disagree winning arguments without losing friends. And then-- (audience applauding) And in the 12-page summary from Claude, I read. (audience laughing) - I actually think he's not kidding. I'm comfortable with it, but I'm curious what questions we're gonna get from it. (laughs) - Actually, I'm kidding. That's not true. It was an eight-page summary. (audience laughing) The way that-- what I took away from that was how to go behind enemy lines and convert. enemies and that is, or not enemies, how to convert people without making them more and bold and more entrenched, and you talk about data over vibes, let's give us the basic construct of you walk into a situation and you do this every day, both Bill Mar and Quinn Tarantino said that they both referenced how skilled you are at this. What is your big takeaway from being on the five every day in terms of trying to manage how you how you convince people or how you argue to your, this is the words out, argue without losing friends. How do you convert people as elegantly as possible? How do you go behind enemy lines and be effective? So the big one of the big takeaway is, and I designed the book which you all have, so you can spend all night reading it after you leave here, but I wanted to put those tips boxes at the end of each chapter so that it could be digestible to people as a business book. So I talk, I've learned in my first few days of press tour that I talk in tips boxes more than complete sentences anymore, but one of them revolves around the idea of shifting your mindset about quote-unquote conversion. And I say it's, I don't think of my job as changing minds, but opening them to an alternative. And it's not so much about the four people that I'm sitting with who I'm not going to be able to convert them. I get glimmers, you know, when I've been talking a lot about how John Ossoft does all this constituency work. And that's why there are Republican crossover voters for him, even some mayors, and then it seeps into the commentary, and Jesse Waters just says it, and I'm like, all right, this is working. Marty says this is why the guy's up 10 points. So you can win that way, but really it's the three and a half to four million people that are sitting at home, who I want to see me modeling a type of politics that doesn't talk down to them, that is kind and part of the table, but is also really smart and prepared. And that's another one of my tips that I think you live by this too, which is to think in averages, but not anecdotes. And you tell a great story, and we do that. Sorry, but it is the strongest tool you can have in your arsenal to understand the data behind something. Data versus vibes. Data versus vibes. And use your anecdotes sparingly. You want big effects, of course, and a personal story can do that, or I have a friend that this happened to, but when you can overwhelm people with something like, don't take it from me, over 70% of people think this. It's a lot harder for them, unless they're just going to say it's fake polls, which is what Trump does, and a good 20% of the base. But the rest of them over time, it does seep into the back of their minds. And they think like, oh, that girl's not nuts, right? She's friends with them. And she keeps talking about this trend line. And I have found that that has reaped enormous benefits. Like when I meet Fox fans out in the wild, they always lead with, you know, we don't agree with you, we love Donald Trump, et cetera. But I know how well prepared you are. And you were right about this. Yeah. And keep giving it to Jesse Waters, which is my favorite to hear. Your book reminded me so much of Jim Barkstale, the former CEO of AT&T, and then Netscape. He used to have this great, had this great saying. And that is, if we're going with opinions, let's go with mine. If we have data, if we have data, let's look at the data. And you do that in spades. And that's, I think he's going to understand, try and show up with data and be very unemotional. But the thing I find most impressive about the way you equate yourself on the five is I think I'm like 90% of us. I just don't think I could keep my cool. And I find that some of it is so disrespectful and hyperbolic and just weird and aggressive and interrupting. I would just lose my shit. And you maintain almost like a positive benign demeanor. Do you have a series of hacks other than alcohol or like do you have any sort of practice around you're just good nature about the disagreement and it's very disarming. It's not an argument. It's like, well, you soften the beach with the way you present yourself and just kind of the mood you present. Is that because you played with the right toys or the wrong toys or is there something that you do before the show to try and put yourself in that sort of benign optimistic frame? Well, I stopped drinking before the show a long time ago. So it's not that. And it's not sedatives, which I did get asked on press tour if I was actually taking drugs to make it through the show. You know, part of it is that I'm in for better or for worse a long-term relationship with the co-hosts. I've been sitting there for four and a half years a few days a week. And you guys know this from your regular life. You colleagues, family members, you know, people can drive you insane and you still keep showing up for more. But it's also part of this internal dialogue that I have with myself about winning and when it's happening. And that's one of the rules or the tips that I talk about in the book that an interruption is an admission that you were right. And criticism of style is a win on substance. And I know that. And I feel like I'm in on this little secret plus the millions of people who are watching maybe not live right then at five or we're going to see clips and whose algorithms love me or whatever. And they're going to see that moment where there's a struggle with what I'm saying because it seems pretty incontrovertible. And then I'm going to hear what is a woman? And you just think, okay, great. I've won this one. Let's let it sit for a second. And then I'm going to continue on with my point. So a lot of inner strength and self-awareness about it. And some people would say like we were talking about the book on the five yesterday. And of course they were, you know, joking around with me. Like you've never won an argument, et cetera. Which is fine. And that is part of life that a lot of people walk away from an interaction with diametrically opposed opinions about what happened there. But I'm comfortable with that. And I think that we need to get more comfortable with it. That conversations about very difficult topics like our politics today. And the book is really about any kind of ideological divide you might have. You know, like a mom group right now, right, talking about screen time, talking about the Oreo and the lunch box. And does everybody have to stop giving their kids Oreos? Because one kid isn't allowed to have, you know, whatever process sugar, life is full of this. And it takes a long time. And it takes a lot of practice to be able to get to a place where people might even be open to changing their mind, but also will admit it. And the quietness of our politics right now, I mean, we have the shy Trump voter in 2016. You know, there are still people out there that are dreading this. It's the last thing in the world that they want to do. And I think it's really important for people to know that it doesn't have to feel like, you know, a big haymaker dropping a bomb that talking about difficult things is this, it's a slog. And it takes a while. And you have to be kind and generous about it. And not just in a polyanna, like Michelle Obama would never say again, you know, when they go low, we go high. I want to fight. I want to win. But if your eye is on the prize, being calmer and more self-assured about it is a better way to get there. Yeah, really is a skill. And as always, I'm going to bring this back to me. I went on Pierce Morgan. That show is hard. Yeah, but I don't have the skills you have. They brought on some mega idiot. Wasn't it Kevin O'Leary? No, but Kevin, the great thing Kevin's such an idiot that makes me like really smart. So I'm fine with Kevin. But this guy basically called me un-American and desperate. And I just don't know how to deal with that. And you have the ability to deflate, not deflate, to counter in a thoughtful, nice way that brings people to your side. Back to your book. In your book, you talk about an especially difficult moment with Greg Gutfeld after the Charlie Kirk assassination. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you learned from that? Yeah, so we just had the one-year anniversary of Charlie's murder. And it was one of the tensest days that I've ever had in thinking about what I was going to say on air. The two that stick out. and both I write about in the book when the DOBS decision came down and I knew that I was going to be the only person on the panel that was going to be expressing the concern and the sorrow and the fear and anxiety that millions of Americans, not just women, were feeling about, you know, what was to come. And then when Charlie was murdered and I knew him, I debated him a bunch in 2016 and I had actually seen him at Fox the month before. So mid August you were on a yacht somewhere so I needed co-hosts every day. Well it's got free August and I was so excited because I had asked Hillary Clinton to co-host with me and she had said yes and I had sent her a blind email. You know, I got, well I got the special email address and thank you forever to the friend who helped me with that. But I just cold emailed her and I said, you know, we actually met once, it was a good pickup line. I was like, remember when we met in Crimea before Putin annexed it? So that piqued her interest. And then I said, this is what I do and I embedded one of the clips where I was defending her really well that had gone like super viral and I was like she's going to like that. And then I said, Scott's away. Come hang with me and do it right back and said, yes, absolutely. I'd love to do this. So I'm very high on the excitement of this and I walk into Fox. I'm there to get my hair and makeup done because you dress up when Secretary Clinton is coming on your podcast. And I see Charlie and we have this really nice exchange talking about family and the five and he's saying, you know, how great the show is and how wonderful I am on it. And we talk about he lives in Arizona, his little kid. We have kids the same age. And then this happens. And I'm preparing for that day. And I know that I want to make sure that the co-hosts who all know that I think this is horrible and that political violence has no place in our society and how important it is that people can show up at on a campus to talk to people about their politics. And that I think it's just a national tragedy. And I also know that President Trump has already said we're at war with them. They're coming to kill us. And the narrative is taking hold that the left is going to be doing this all the time. And stoking fear and anger and it feels scary already. And I know what the data is. And I know who perpetrates the majority of political violence. And it's not people that vote like us. Yeah. And there has been an uptick, but it's not on the same playing field. So I thought that I did really well. Actually, I got through, you know, being able to express my feelings about it. And then I talked about the data. I cited government data. You know, don't take it for me. It's your own government, right? You guys are in charge now and you're still saying this. And I bring up Melissa Hortman and her husband and their dog who were gunned down in an active political violence over the summer and Greg just unleashed on me. And it was for about four minutes, which is forever in TV talk time. And I was processing all of it as it as it was happening. And it got personal. And he also apologized. He realized that he was saying Jessica, not Democrats or. And if you look at the clip, one line, it's one of the biggest alternate universes, like what Jessica said. And then Greg got felt and making Kelly picks it up. And it turns into this whole viral moment. And I realized as it was happening that I had an answer, I had a rebuttal. But the best thing that I could do for myself, for my friend, for the audience was just to listen. And that it was almost as if we're at a funeral. We're not on a TV set anymore. And it's so wildly unfair what happened. And it's so wrong that what am I going to gain by reminding them what the government accountability office has to say at that particular moment. And I think that it really, I don't know from the audience because the feedback was still incredibly negative. But I know that it was really a bonding moment in the end for me and Greg. And that we talked, you know, talked about it. And I've brought up the political violence point many times since then. And we can coexist in those conversations differently. Because I knew when to listen and when to talk. And that I understand for people who are in a heated arguments that sometimes those moments can feel like just when you should keep going in and make sure that you make your point and that they don't walk away from it thinking, oh no, I was right about this. But there was no right or wrong then. And it just paved the way. I think for a more honest dialogue about this important political issue. You brought up Charlie Kirk and Hillary Clinton or Secretary Clinton. And I think it's important that a year on of the gruesome death of Charlie Kirk that we acknowledge just how wrong he was. The primary thesis, we have a tendency and I think it's a healthy tendency in our society to speak well of people after they're gone. But in my view, that shouldn't ignore reality. And the reality is his primary thesis was that a woman's success economically is inversely correlated to her mental well-being that there's supposedly this cohort of millions of women out there who focused on their career and are now at home 35 in a sweater on Lexipro and depressed because they don't have a man in kids. And the data to your point is the following. Fertility and economic security are highly correlated. More women over the age of 40 are now having kids than women under the age of 21. And if you want to have kids, if you want to increase the likelihood you're going to have kids, you become economically independent. And there's a correlation between happiness and choice. Whether that's increasing the fertility window by freezing your eggs or having the economic independence that you don't have to end up in an abusive relationship that demands your partners step up. The mythology that just needs to stop that the data totally counteracts is that somehow women focusing on economic independence threatens their fertility. It's not. If there's a lesson we want to teach our young girls with the data, it's a your economic independence, increases your likelihood of mental well-being and fertility. And then, and then on Secretary Clinton, exhibit one of how sexist this nation is. Tell me. Tell me. If Hillary Clinton had a penis and balls she wouldn't be president Clinton. I'm totally playing to the crowd now. Support for the show comes from age one. It's back to school season, which is probably a huge relief to parents out there. But that also means it's back to constant colds and other bugs, courtesy of your child's petri dish of a classroom. Maybe you're feeling like you could use a little boost of energy and some extra immune support. Enter age you want. 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I teamed up to make this podcast with the Vox Media podcast never because ever since I was a kid I loved hearing and reading stories about classic artists, recording sessions, and music history. And I wanted to have a place to be able to take what I've learned and share some of those favorites with you. Every Monday, I'll be releasing a new episode and deep diving into a new story with experts and special guests, and it's going to be a blast. So if you're a music history geek like me, or even just a casual music fan, jump in, because I promise the Monday Music Club is going to be the podcast for you. You talk about, you use these examples, or you bring in your dad's illness, and your wedding day into this book. Can you talk a little bit about that, and how it relates to disagreeing while not making enemies? I mean, this is a long one, and we do have audience questions, too. So I'm going to do it kind of neatly. And most of you, if you listen to the podcast, or have seen me on the five, know that my dad passed away about five years ago from a 9/11 cancer, and I grew up near the site, and was evacuated at first, and then we got to go back and serving first responder meals, and then a few years later, he was diagnosed with tongue cancer, and actually two of my best friends were in the audience. They both lost a parent to a 9/11 cancer, too. So really has ravaged the neighborhood to say the least. And I write about when Brian and I were going to get married, and I was 12 weeks pregnant, and my dad had said, we would have just kind of alooped maybe in San Francisco, and my dad said, I'd love to actually see you get married, so we thought, well, we should definitely do that, since we're getting to maybe dying-wish territory. And so we planned on getting married right in front of my parents' apartment at the time, which gorgeous views of the Statue of Liberty, and my mom on our wedding day calls me at 10 AM, and says, I have to take him to the hospital. But don't worry, we'll be back in time. And it was a 2 PM ceremony. I was like, oh, this is exactly what a pregnant bride wants to hear. Everything is super chill, no problem. And one of my best friends was the ones who lost her mom. She's a doctor, and she's a palliative care doctor, so a saint, frankly. And I ran this by her, and I think she wanted to sugarcoat it more than she could, but she was like, OK, well, we're just going to get ready. Heron makeup will be here soon. And we'll kind of see how it goes. He did make it back in time, mostly due to my mom, who was just like, whatever-- I don't actually even know what happened at the hospital. I was freaking out in Bryan, and I were moving furniture in our outfits, because we knew we had to move it inside, and we had just immediate family there. And my mom's gripping the wheelchair handle. It's all very dramatic and all the things. Anyway, he passes away two months later when I'm 20 weeks pregnant. And I had this moment on TV. I took a little time off, and then I came back, and we do this segment at the end of the show called One More Thing, where you can talk about anything you want. And you can talk about cute puppies. You can talk about your family, and I was plugging the comedy show that John Stewart does with Pete Davidson to raise money for 9/11 families. Actually, John Stewart's going to be here tomorrow night if you would like to come back. And I just start crying. I mean, my voice cracks all the time, which you guys know. But this was like bad. And the two people sitting on either side of me both immediately extended for physical touch. Jessie was out that day. This was Will Cain, who had joined the network from ESPN a few years before in my friend Katie on the other side. And it was so warm and it was exactly the right-- you know, when you can't be touched too much because it's going to make it worse, it actually suspended me in a place where I could choke out my words. And this-- I'm an ugly cryer generally, but it was quite elegant. I went back and watched it again for the book, because I wanted to get it right. Beautiful crying that day. And it so grounded me in the importance of being publicly vulnerable when the moment is right. I'm not talking about crying all the time, especially if you're a woman. Don't do that at work all the time. It will be problematic. But crying and letting people in on this crazy journey that I had been on largely by myself, vis-a-vis work. And I hadn't even said that I was pregnant on air. So I had all these secrets. Was such an amazing exhale. And then the response from the audience, hearing from people who had lost someone because of 9/11, either around when it happened or one of these cancers that came after just so many people, the camaraderie and the support from my co-hosts, it has made it so much easier for me to be the totality of myself in this very public forum. And it has built connective tissue with them sitting with me, with the audience. And I think that is how they have also been able to make room for my politics. Because they do know that to a large degree, we're coming from the same place. When you look at policy areas and I looked at over 150 for this book, there's a vast agreement, which is part of why we have a podcast called Raging Moderates. And leaning into that and then being able to show the vulnerability and also the heart and the oomph behind your advocacy. When you talk about these issues, you'll know that you're an honest broker in another way, sort of a very strange retelling of my wedding day. But that's what happened. And it was beautiful and terrible in all at the same time. But we wouldn't have done it any other way. And it was an unlikely bridge with a bunch of conservatives that I'm very thankful for. We're going to move to Q&A. I love this one. Jess. So from the audience, by the way, whoever wrote this should be a doctor. Seriously? Look at this. OK. Jess, every grade boxer needs a grade sparring partner. Does Brian, Jess's husband, have a glass jaw, or can he take a punch? And how does he-- yeah. Anyways. What's it like fighting with Brian? Well, I'm going to, of course, alter this question. Have what you learned through the book or just in general. Have you learned-- especially one of the elements of a good marriage is not that you don't fight, but you fight well. Or that you argue well. How do you argue with your husband? And how is any of this learning hasn't changed the way you guys resolve issues? So Brian is a total introvert. And honestly, I think if he hadn't been trapped inside with me during COVID, we wouldn't have ended up together because the idea of marrying someone who talks for a living and shares things like, I'm a pregnant, sad bride on national television was not on his single card. So I actually feel really bad for him. And it's getting worse. He's sitting right there. And I can feel how uncomfortable he is. I find it's OK to objectify, man. He is a call-drink-aleminate. I want the two. I want the two of them to have 200 kids. I'm going to weaponize them, take over Australia, where I'll be gentle, constant of Australia, and they will love me. Anyways, back to you. I do, I hear from friends. They'll text me and be like, Scott's weirdly talking about how attractive Brian is again on a podcast. Look at him, am I wrong? All right, I'm so sorry. He's very good. And I make fun of him. And I say that he has learned how to be like a right-wing troll to get at me. Like, if it's kind of tense about something, it'll just be like, Bernie would have won. Like in the 2016 election for the primary. And like, if you talk to me about Hillary Clinton not being perfect, I get into such a rage. And I'm like, he's not a real Democrat. He just wants to use our infrastructure. It made sense. You know, anyway, so he's very good at it. And he reads everything. I mean, my algorithm is broad to say the least, because I prepare for myself. And then I try to prepare for others. But he's always reading something interesting and sending it to me, helping me understand topics that I am not as naturally good at. And he's really good. He does have this line, though, if it gets tense, where he's like, where are the HD lights? Like, calm down. We're not on camera here. Like, we have little kids. Where are you going to go? Which my parents used to do when they would get in a huge fright. My dad would just say, are you divorcing me? And she'd be like, what? That's a room to kill, so I'm not doing it. So we're almost there. Yeah, my go-to line at some point, it ends up with my partner screaming, you're an asshole. I'm like, yeah, but I've always been an asshole. You knew this coming into it. You chose it. All right, next question. My sons have come aware of the world during an era of anger, angst and division. I worry for them. I'm 61, and the world was not so confusing when I grew up. What advice would you give them and how can we get back to a more congenial times, Dave? Why don't you take this first, because you have. I feel like this is a Scottish, I'm not. Yeah, but you have little ones. If you thought about raising them such that they feel good about the world, or do you think about. I think about how we can best protect their purity in terms of how they see people and the world. They really. They come out perfect. They're so kind and generous, and then we teach them all this shitty stuff. And they become mean and bullying. Like our older daughter just started kindergarten, and that drop-off was very emotional, obviously, and it's the first time that you go to like a big yard, right? And everyone's standing around, and they go in, and we do think about, you know, how do you maintain this? And sometimes our answer is we really shouldn't live here anymore, and as Brian will remind me, I can't go anywhere professionally, because I go into the studio, like he would be living in Northern California very happily, if things were different. So I do think about it, and I'm not sure what to do besides showing up being very present and modeling, a caring, loving relationship for them, and also letting them in on how important work is. And for me, I take Ray Pride, and whenever our older daughter gets asked, what do you want to be? You grow up, you know, we did those signs for the first day of school, and she always says, "A mommy." And so I'm like, "Okay, we must be doing something right here." But I don't know, and I think you probably have a better algorithmic answer to how we can make life better for these young people, especially young men. I coach a lot of young men, and I think the key to success is relationships and economic security, and you're not supposed to say that, but I think in a capitalist society, every young man has to have a plan to be economically viable, and I try to be very practical when I coach young men. I asked them to open their phone, and they're nervous because of what I'm going to find. So the first thing I tell them to put them at ease is like, "I consume porn, and I gamble, and I'm depraved. Let me see your phone." And then I say, "We're going to find eight hours a week in your phone. One is capital. When you're young, you have less financial capital, more human capital. And young men have a lot of human capital, they have a lot of time. We're going to find eight hours of human capital, and we're going to reinvest it in three places. One, we're going to get really fit. I think any young man, under the age of 30, and I've said there should be able to walk in any room and believe that a shit got real, they could kill and eat everybody or out on them. [laughter] And I'm not suggesting you do that, but I think feeling strong or fit or flexible is great for your mental health. I think it makes you feel better. The guys that break up fights at bars are usually big, strong guys. They feel good about their physical well-being. And for me, it's been the ultimate anti-depressant, so we're going to work out three times a week. We're going to work at least 30 hours a week outside of the home. The way to make a lot of money is by making a little bit. You learn capitalism. I learn capitalism parking cars at the Beverly Hills Hotel and being a waiter at the Mondrian Hotel. You start to learn how to make money and what values and what value ad is and what showing up means and being personable. But you need to be out of the house making money at least 30 hours a week. And then at least three times a month, we're going to put ourselves in the company of strangers and we're going to do the approach. What I mean by that is we're going to find someone we think is interesting or nice and express friendship. A.D. You want to watch the Patriots game at a bar this weekend or someone you find attractive, ask them out for coffee. And I would say the goal is the following. The goal is no and that is I want you to call me when you get your first no. You ask them out for coffee and they said no. And I'm going to ask if you're okay and you're going to tell me yes you are and every no gets closer and closer to a great yes. Work out three times a week. Work outside of the home 30 hours a week and put yourself in a place of no at least three times a month. If you do those three things, you immediately put yourself in the top quartile of young men and you get to exit the worst tribe in the world, the in cell group. I hate these guys. It is a badge of honor to give up. Well guess what? It's hard to find someone to have a relationship but welcome to the fucking work week. It's been real. Most of us have been involuntarily celibate for our entire lives. It is hard. And this is what's awesome. If you get a job, if you work hard, if you're fit. If you're willing to endure rejection, you're going to become voluntarily in cellabate which is awesome. Alright. Jess, the part of your book that touched me the most was what you wrote about your dad. I just lost someone very important from breast cancer this week. Is there a story about your dad in the book? You want to share what was the best advice he gave you? Well, first of all, I'm so sorry that that happened to you and I'll just say that grief is with you forever and it just morphs into different types and you can have really good years even where you're feeling like I got this and then it just hits you like a ton of bricks. And you're still, whoever you are, it's still fresh for you, but don't lean into grief and also get a great medium. We're very into talking to my dad, which probably makes us sound insane. And also spirits can get an easier through. Oh, awesome. You speak to your dad. You. It's more of my, my mom has like regular dates with him, which I think is very cute. And he leaves. We sound insane. Anyway, there are ways to access Ray Dalio talks about this. He lost his son and him and his wife, Vlad a candle and they talked to their son. Okay. So not insane. He leaves peanut shells for my sister who he used to call peanut and he, my mom talks to him and then he talks to me through her. And what I would say is something that he taught me or something that's particularly touching and relevant for this book is that he was the one who instilled in me my general political perspective or rule for politics, which is that it is the job of the government to alleviate as much anxiety as possible for the populace. That's the only reason you're employed. And when you don't do that, you deserve to lose your job. And when you do do that, you deserve to keep it. And then you make your political decisions based upon who you think actually gives a shit about you and is going to work like hell to make sure that if you're scared about a data center or if you're about to lose your health care or God, you just lost someone important to you. Your farm's going bankrupt that they know that that is their number one most important job. And that has been foundational to the way that I see the world, how I certainly judge or elected, but also people that I spend my time with and choose to keep company with who I marry, looking for kind, generous people who care if I'm scared. And they want to spend the time and politics is actually driven last by what people want or think they want and more by what they're afraid of. And that's all of humanity is driven by that. So I would say that that's the most important thing that he taught me or one of. Scott, what was the best parenting lesson you learned from your single mom that helped you with your kids? You know, it's pretty basic and you've touched on this. You know, it's the simple stuff, but it's easier to say than to do. My mom every day just convinced me I was a wonderful kid, like a wonderful guy. I remember specifically when I was, and we all go through this, when I was 16 or 17 about the time you're just trying to get a date, I hit this growth spurt and I was 6'2 125 pounds with really bad, with really bad acne and my mom every morning before I left for school used to come in and look at me and, you know, we'd have a lot of money in clothes and I'm not joking. She would look at me and go, you're so handsome. Funny, isn't it? Funny isn't it? It's like, I'm just running to my mind. It's so sexist. When I do this, it's vulnerable and strength when women cry its weakness, but anyways, it's pretty easy just to tell your kids, you know, every day that they're wonderful. I'm going to let you close here. Last lesson on, on you meet somebody right out of the gates you disagree with them. click to the wallsford. disarming that? Well grief comes at you in waves as we're seeing here and I think the biggest lesson is to just lead with your humanity. It's a golden rule for everything and it's not in a weak way. It's actually to position you to be able to win more and to persuade better and to change minds by starting with the opening of them and we will be so much more successful in life no matter what you're doing if you show up human first and look for that connective tissue because it is there and I hope that you will all feel braver and better equipped for tough conversations because you've read the book and I don't know take care of each other I disagree so please everybody order I disagree winning arguments without losing friends by Jess Harlov and something that Jess didn't bring up is the best way to win an argument is to create an atmosphere where people just really want to like you and I said this on the podcast and I'll say it again I don't think I've ever worked with someone that is universally as respected and just basically generally liked as Jess Harlov. Thank you not 90 seconds to go on. Thank you.