True Crime Deep Dive ft. Ashley Flowers

Ashley Flores. I am death to talk a little bit of true crime. Kim and I, we are obsessed. I don't know how healthy this is to be that obsessed. You want to put your tinfoil hat on? I say crime junkies are born not made. If I could build a moat, I would have a moat with alligators. Our brains, like, love a mystery. How is someone here, one second? Go on the next. I don't think the story we've gotten is the real story at all. No. In my gut, do I think she's alive by do? This is insane that it's not getting any traction. Right now I'm working on, like, the weirdest cat fishing story, and today's day and age, the fact that we're still catfishing. Do you think this ever turns into an unhealthy obsession? I wanted to find a way to give back. We're not just telling these stories. We're working with law enforcement. We're working with families. Do you ever get afraid, like, maybe I said too much? The dark shit happens in the shadows. Yes, it does. This could go off the rails, too. I'm really sure, really trying to find what's to. Thank you for coming here today. I am so excited to sit and talk to you. Thank you. I am jazz to talk a little bit of true crime. I am so excited. So I want you, if you can, just tell the audience, how did you get into true crime? I say crime junkies are born, not made. True. True. Very true. There was never a moment or like a case. I don't have a personal experience. My mom was a crime junkie, her mom before her. So I-- Generational. Seriously, I feel like I just grew up in it. And it was started when I was young with like, we were reading Nancy Drew and then Agatha Christie. And then I feel like the first time I really like got into true crime as a was a fiction is we were-- me and my best friend, Brent, who I do the show with. We were tabloid height when John Bonet happened. And for us to realize like, oh my gosh, this could happen. Happened to someone our age. It looks like Gus. And it was so big. And so that's when this whole other world opened up. And I have just been obsessed ever since. I can't help it. So my sister, Kim and I, we are obsessed. And I don't know how healthy this is to be that obsessed. And I was so much more obsessed before I had my daughter. And I think that-- It's like you've gone the other way. So I went the other way for a minute. I was like, I need a break. Or I was very choosy with the true crime I would watch. It could have nothing to do with kids. Yeah, so many moms tell us they're like, if it's a kid episode, I can't listen. Yep. Which I totally get, because I've got a daughter now. And I think that it doesn't change, don't you think? Your view of the world. I think it completely changes. But I keep telling everyone, I feel like I was actually pushed more towards listening. It was definitely harder. But the same reason I listened to everything else, it's like, I can't protect her if I don't know what to protect her from. Before, when I used to watch true crime, there's not even a thought that any of this would happen to me. Really? Never. I'm like, I will fuck all those people up. Everyone's going to find me. Like, it just, it wasn't a thought. When you have kids, then you're like, OK, at least for me. The world is so dark, it's so scary. Everyone is so messed up. And I'm not going to put myself in any of these situations. I'm going to have all the security I can, like the alarm system, the shattering glass. Like, I have so many things that I don't think I had an alarm when, before I had kids. Like, who knows? Like, there's no way you didn't have an alarm for your kid. Well, I don't know, I'm probably exaggerating. You're all just like a different, like, I'm probably exaggerating, but the thought I put into things now, it is Fort Knox. If I could build a moat, I would have a moat with alligators and great way. Absolutely. I keep telling people I want to recreate. Did you watch The Village? That I'm not sure I want movie? No. Why has no one seen The Village? Like, this is a horror movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because he's horror. I don't do horror. OK, I don't, I can do true crime. I don't want you to like scare me. Like, OK, I can do suspense. OK, but you don't do a bit. Well, I'm going to ruin my shaman for people. So spoiler alert. OK, spoiler alert. They have this, like, it's setting like this, like, 1800s village. And there's this, like, monster that lives in the woods. I already terrified. And you find out at the end, there is no monster. It's, like, modern day that this, like, community came together to, like, create a fake 1800s so that their kids could be safe. And I was like, I want to do that with the '90s. I like that. Yes. Where it's just, like, you get, like, a new CD and, like, AIM. Yes. Very early on. Like, that, that I'd be jazzed about. This is nothing to do a true crime. But over the weekend, I just made a list. So my dad had a tradition that once a week, we would watch a movie of his choosing. OK. And which I hated at the time. Obviously. I'm like, I'm not watching these old movies. But now people reference the movies that he made me watch. I'm like, oh, I, I know that reference. So I made a list and I went, I googled, like, '90s movies. Yes. Now and then the babysitter's club, there's so many great movies. I don't just want on a tangent. But I feel like I need your list because I grew up in, like, deeply religious, like borderline cult. And so, like, I missed, like, this whole era stop of stop watch those movies. No, I couldn't. You could be in true crime. I couldn't watch Harry Potter. I, like, I'm just watching Harry Potter for the first time with my daughter. Oh, my. Well, that's a good experience. Oh, it's fantastic. Yeah. But you can watch True Crime. Yeah. OK. Yeah. No judgment. We listen and we don't judge. That's what I do. Oh, we're out now. I judge a lot. OK. So there wasn't one case that, like, turned you on to True Crime. It was just, was it more that so many things couldn't be solved or could be solved? I mean, I'm definitely drawn to unsolved cases, over-solved ones. I mean, I think that there's, like, there's, like, two things that are, like, constantly drawing me to these. I think in, like, the solved cases, it's, we have a saying, crime drug use, that, like, we're not paranoid. We're pro-paranoid. Like, I wanted to look for all of the things that, like, if I were ever in the situation, what would I do? What led up to this? What do I look out for in a relationship? Like, what are the red flags? So, in a lot of the solved cases, I feel like what we find is education, self-like preservation. And then in the unsolved cases, I mean, I, like, dream was to, like, be a detective. I'm, like, sure, if, like, I can get the right case file, if I can talk to the right person, like, surely I can solve the mystery. And I think our, our brains, like, love a mystery. I don't think it manifests as true crime, maybe, for everyone, but, like, we look for order where there isn't any. And, I mean, like, it's, like, missing person cases. I'm obsessed with, like, how is someone here? One second. Gone the next. Nancy Guthrie. I mean, is that not what you think? Heart breaking? I don't. No. Like, are you, this is 2026. There is nothing, like, we don't, that is really well. I can't even believe that, but I'm also, like, very conspiratorial. So, like, two. I don't know if I know enough about this case, but, like, all the things I was reading about, the brother-in-law and that kind of stuff, I'm, like, ugh. We did a whole, like, episode in our fan club, where I was, like, you guys, there's, like, weird stuff happening in the background. The ransom notes going to all the media outlets first. I know. Oh, weird. I know. I know. It's so much. And I just, I can't understand that in 2026, there's not, like you said, that's what, I don't believe that there's not one piece of information. I just, they're not telling us. They're not telling us. Yeah. Which is, like, so common with law enforcement, right? As we work with so many families, like, we're not just telling these stories. And it is wild how they, like, are going through the most, like, traumatic experience of their life. There's no resolution. It's a person who they love, who's out there in the world missing or murdered. And they, they're expected to just, like, you have to pay the bills. You have a contract. You have to go back to work. And the world just, like, keeps moving even though yours has, like, completely stopped. And it's so odd. It's also how people feel, like, the anger towards the world when someone passes away, close to them. And every, like, it's the acknowledgement that they're like, oh, the world just still, everything still goes on. I'm like, it does. It sucks. Yeah. But yeah, the more, it's the strangest feeling. The strangest feeling. Speaking of that you are gravitating more towards cold cases, you've actually yourself solved over 20 cold cases. Not because I'm, like, out there, boots on the ground, but our nonprofit has. Yeah. So that's incredible. Thanks. We, so much of, like, when I got into this, I wanted to find a way to give back. So even as a consumer of true crime, I always felt we are taking this as an entertainment when I'm, like, these are the, like, this is the worst time in a family. These lives. So even before I ever created this content, I was volunteering, like, with my local crime stoppers, like, how do I just give back in a small way? And then as I created content, it was, you know, bigger ways and bigger ways. And we do, we have the team of amazing investigative journalists who were doing amazing work and some of the work that we're doing on these cases is actually moving them forward. But I also kept finding over and over that I get to these agencies and they're like, yeah, we have suspect DNA in this murder. We just, like, can't, we don't have the funds to test it. Isn't that crazy? And I'm like, we're talking like $5,000 between, like, getting a murder off the streets or not. And so we, we started a nonprofit called season of justice. And that nonprofit has gone on. I think they've now awarded, like, $2 million in grants that have gone to, like, you know, 250, 300 different cases. Wow. And, you know, it takes a long time. Sometimes, you know, you hit a dead end. But we've, they've solved a ton of cold cases through that organization. And it's, it's been really amazing to see. And I think that a lot of people are looking at that and changing the way that they think about, like, true crime content. Because it can feel everyone, yeah, I feel like it gets a bad rap. That is just like this exploitative, voyeuristic thing. And I don't think it has to be. No, and I also, what a wonderful legacy that you get. leave behind. I know you said you're not the one like boot setting the ground, but you're the one making it all happen and making that a possibility and that for 20 families or more than 20 for them to have that closure. It's so so beautiful. Do you have one case that's a cold case that like you wish you can solve? But like have you tried that hasn't been able to be solved like Jean-Benae. For example, are you like there's just no fucking way this still isn't solved yet? It is weird, isn't it? It is weird. I am obsessed with the Jean-Benae case. I mean again, that's like since I was little, I followed it. You're like Kim and I are too. That and the Maddie. Oh, Madeline McCann. Yes. Portugal. Yeah. Jean-Benae is one that I mean I just I it's the last like year, year and a half. I like I sat down with her dad. I've done like a ton. I continue to get people who write into me or talk to me who have information on that and that's something that I think I'll constantly follow like throughout my career. Right. I don't think there's just like one case that everyone always asks like what's the one like you saw the one and it's it to me it's like whatever one all of them but whatever one I'm like the deepest into at the moment and we just did this a couple of episodes this series out of Arizona that hasn't gotten. I don't think a ton of like mainstream media. I think they're like to the area. People kind of know about this case but there was this dad who was on FaceTime with his kids at the office and all of a sudden they hear this like commotion they hear this like bang and he's like it's dark and they go running to their mom and they end up finding out that he was shot while he was on FaceTime with them and the police get to his office and it's just him and his business partner in the office and he is shot execution style his business partner is fine just like a little bump on the noggin okay and they say two masked men and there's video of two masked men coming in and shooting him and the weird part is a couple of days after he is killed this business partner comes to his wife Alicia and he's like hey I need you to sign you know the insurance policies for your family like he owned half the business you'll get $500,000 and she's like listen I don't right let me bury my husband first right like give me a beat and then I'll come back to you and so she goes in her husband's email she's like looking she didn't know really a lot about the insurance policies and she's already like not loving Dave like that have been some like disputes and she finds that there is eight million dollars of life insurance taken out on her husband for their HVAC company okay well and roads point to she gets a lawyer and they're like hey let's make sure we have the paperwork in order we're gonna make sure the company split 50-50 that you get half of that they get everything in order they go to sign the paperwork and the insurance company is like what do you mean you already signed the paperwork we have your signature the money has been paid out to his business partner Dave sweet man no so she has to fight tooth and nail to get some kind of settlement that they decide on and his his case is unsolved yeah those things just don't make sense no they wrap my brain because I'm like what are we talking about I am a civilian and I'm like hello I might yes I'm pointing fingers but it's obvious so we looked into Dave this his business partner Dave sweet man and we're like who is this guy like as part of the episode and weirdly nowhere in next case filed as the show up but we found out that Dave sweet man had a wife named Laura sweetman who seven years before Nick Cordova died Laura sweet man dies mysteriously in her home after she had a file for divorce from him and her case was ruled undetermined manner and cause of death there was not even a newspaper article about this woman's death that happens all the time it's unbelievable all the time so those are the ones that I'm like very deep into we just did like three parts on Nick Cordova's case Laura sweetman's case and then we just got someone in the Maricopa County sheriff's office in Arizona has to be a fan because they released to us all this audio from a domestic violence incident no so then we dropped all the audio in our feed and so I'm like I feel like I'm like hot on the trail we're like getting like tips on this normally the stuff we do is like a lot older I'm like I feel like this is like happening in real time so no I mean I'm not like smiling I'm happy I'm like it's just so exciting that potentially you'll be able to help this family because that is I'm excited for Alicia I'm excited for Laura's family because like she can't get police to do anything like Laura's case has never been investigated really like since 2013 well it's like that I think they're in Arizona too Lori Valo yes oh my god Lori Valo oh yeah she was hiding in Hawaii her and her new husband but the brother was killing everyone oh best bananas there's some wild but know what like three of the men in her life were dead three of his wives were dead or whatever the women in his life then for the brother that was doing on the merge to die of a heart attack randomly right yeah wink what are we talking about the poor kids it's horrible you guys know I recently got a puppy peppermint and I'm not even going to pretend I'm normal about it I fully accept that I've become one of those dog parents the kind who takes way too many photos talks to their dog like they're a person and somehow she ends up having a better daily routine than I do peppermint already has multiple beds around the house a rotation of toys and honestly I catch myself checking on her like she's a toddler but if you're a dog parent I feel like you get it they really do become a part of the family and if anyone understands that level of obsession it's Ollie they're just as obsessed with your dog as you are Ollie makes fresh food for dogs that's developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists so you know your pup is getting high quality meals made with ingredients you can feel good about and what I love is that everything is personalized to your dog when you start they create a plan based on your dog's needs and portion the meals just for you it even comes with a pup tanner and a scoop so feeding them is super easy but Ollie doesn't 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Sometimes I'm just like there'll be a case where I'm like everything's there how are we like even like yeah and then you've got like I know you your sister I've worked with like a ton of like wrongful convictions and then I'm like but you can convict someone on like absolutely nothing I think about that all the time like it really just it shows you just kind of how bro not bro like well broken the justice system is but just how like it's it differs from like state-to-state jurisdiction to jurisdiction judge to judge yes where and I think that's the thing that has bummed me out the most people are like how do you live in this content all the time and I'm like it's not some people are built for it but I was like it's not the content that that depresses me I was like I there's always going to be bad people out there doing bad things the thing that has really gotten to me doing this for eight and a half years is like oh I actually used to believe that there was a system in place that would write the wrongs and catch the bad guys and fix the things and I just don't like know that I believe in that system anymore and that's something that I relate to because doing prison reform stuff with Kim I mean it's Kim's ship and she's driving it but I've been apart with her on so many journeys but realizing that it's not always about getting the right person they just want to pin it on someone, that's going to win. - Yes, and that's so devastating. 'Cause I'm like, wait, so you don't care that the killer or burglar whoever is still out there, you just want to make your town feel safe by saying that they got the guy. - It's unbelievable. - It's really unbelievable. And like you said about even the DNA testing, I've watched like law and order and all this stuff. And it's like you see these shows, they move in this fast pace episode beginning middle end. It takes months, if not years, if not at all. To get the DNA testing. And like in my end, I'm like, what do you mean? Just test them in 48 hours. We're gonna get the results back right now. - It's crazy. - There's a missing person's case out of New Mexico right now, Melissa Cassias, day by day. So I'm like, you could sway me. Someone did something to her. She walked away. There's so many weird elements to this case, but there is this like spot of blood that's found in her house that people were suspicious of. They do like the presumptive testing that says, yes, this is blood, but we don't know if it's hers. We don't know what it is. We have to send it off her testing. She went missing in June of 2025. - Okay. - It is almost a year now. - Right. - And they still don't have the results back from that. - So why? - How? - Like that, I don't know. - I don't know. - I am, I'm like, so what are you hiding? Like who's involved? I'm very, I love a conspiracy. - I'm like, yeah, I'm, I will feed into that. - Do you have any thoughts on that Amy Bradley case? - I really think she's still alive. - I do too. - It's so funny. I right before it came out on Netflix. 'Cause I've been following that case for years and years. But obviously so many people really got invested when Netflix did their thing. And I had a meeting at Netflix. And I was kind of in the room with the people who were in charge of like all their true crime stuff and who were making it. And they were like fighting in the room. Like they all had different theories. And some people were like hardcore fighting that like she just fell overboard. And I was like, no. That's like the only thing I don't believe. - Don't believe it. - Happened. - Correct. - I think she had, do you think the picture was her? - Yeah, I do. I do. - I do too. When they, especially when they do the comparisons and like it's with AI technology too. I mean, I do. - It just like, it was so, the only thing I was like, it was so brazen. Like you didn't think that this would become a big story. I mean, but I guess they got away with it. So. - Well, not even that. Where my conflict is with that. So let's say she is alive. And I want her to be. But now we've publicly admitted where they think she is and what they think she's doing. And so I don't think that's going to go over too well for, because I'm assuming if the kidnappers, abductors, whoever, have her, they might not be watching it. Someone they know is watching it and saying, hey, they're on your tail. They're going to move her around. So that's the only thing where I feel bad that it got so big in public. I think that everyone's intentions were in the right place. But I don't think people thought that through all the way. - Do you think that they were actually closing in though? 'Cause I think that's the balance or the hard part where I'm always like, yeah, but it's been, you know, we deal with cases where I'm like, well, keep it's been 30 years, 40 years. Like you had all this time to do something. If you haven't done it now. - Well, it's the only thing we haven't tried. - I think true. I get that. But also knowing like every holiday she would go to the website and they were able to find the IP address. And not that they knew the exact location, but they knew proximity and that what the island isn't like this massive island. I'm like, just fucking walk around. - Can you be there like, honestly, if you would like put out a bulletin, I think you would've gotten the crime junkies to do. We would've all gone on like a week vacation to like find Amy Bradley crime junkie trend. - I think you guys should still try to do that. I really love it. - I really think we should. So, I don't know, but in my gut, do I think she's alive? I do. - I do too. - My sister and I, we spoke to the family after the documentary and they definitely think she's still alive and have high hopes. - Yeah, and I, you know, most families do, but this is one where I'm like, yeah, I think they're like their hopes are in the right place. I think that that she's out there still. I think that there's a good chance of finding her. It's just like, you know, who is she now? All these years later. - I agree with that. - But I think there's an Amy to find for sure. - You said you grew up religious, what was almost like cult like. Did that impact your, I'm gonna say obsession with true crime? Like, do you think that pushed you in that direction at all? Did it still through you at all? - I kind of wonder not because of like the elements of like growing up in there, but to your point of like you could watch Harry Potter but you could watch this. It was like, it was that like that outlet of like, while everyone else was getting to listen to like Britney Spears and like do all this stuff that I couldn't do. I got true crime and so like I went all in on like the one secular thing. - I could have, because it's all you could have. So I get that, is your mom still into true crime? - Oh yeah, okay. - My mom's still a big crime junkie. - I love that though. Like my mom, she doesn't really, oh she does. She likes Dateline every Friday, that's her thing. But she won't get as like me deep as like Kim and I will spiral into these dark holes. - Well, 'cause the Dateline is good, I think for like the casual viewer because Dateline usually comes in like a neat package. Like there's an end, you know who did it? You can, you don't wanna, you don't spiral so much. Whereas like I think that's the difference. Being a crime junkie is like, I want to, I want to argue with someone about the case. I want to talk theories, I want to, I want to spiral. So there's the Dateline audience and then there's crime junkies. And we do overlap through once in a while. - Two love and argument over a case of any sort. For people that are maybe too obsessed with crime. Like do you think, I know you're like, what does that mean? - I literally was like, whoo. - Who's too obsessed. - Yeah. - But do you think this ever turns into an unhealthy obsession where people become paranoid at all like hours of the day as opposed to being like vigilant and using these tools for them? - I think it can, I mean, I've had people be like, I had to stop listening for a little while because it was becoming all-consuming. Yes, some people are like just built where they can like, hands a little more. I think people can come in and come out. And I also think it's why like we're really intentional about doing like different types of episodes because there are so many important like lessons or educational pieces that I want people to hear or about to do an episode about AI kidnappings which is the scams, which I don't know if you've like heard of. But I, - I've heard of some, I don't know if this is what you're talking about but where like either people are pretending to be someone else through AI, like changing voices, all of that stuff. - There was a woman who was with her daughter at a dance class and her husband her other daughter were like on a ski vacation. She's like sitting in the car waiting for her and she gets this phone call and it's her daughter on the phone, freaking out and is like, mom, I didn't think that I was so sorry 'cause she's crying, crying, crying, the heaving. She's like, I know my daughter's cry and this guy gets on the phone and is like, you have to bring this money to X, Y and Z location and as she's got like people around her trying to figure out what's going on, one of them calls her husband and he's like, what are you talking about? I'm with our daughter right now. And this is becoming a huge new scam where they're taking a couple of bites from people's social media where they're talking or my podcast where I'm talking all day every day and creating voice models to extort people for kidnapping. So they're like, I have heard about this. Different types of cases. So I do think that some people can get really paranoid but I hope they keep coming back right now. I'm working on the weirdest cat fishing story I've ever encountered. Still in today's day and age, the fact that we're still cat fishing is crazy but I need to hear this. It's kind of wild. Okay, so this one is 2010. So I know it's hard for people to remember but this is like, we've got dating websites but no one's swiping. So this is website time, 2010 and this woman named Ana Akbar, she's a PhD, she's beautiful, she's smart, she's engaging. She is online dating and she meets this guy named Ethan. And things are like, you know, online dating, everyone's like, yo, what's up? What's me, the conversations are just like duds. Yeah. And she meets Ethan who went to MIT and who wants to talk about politics and culture and movies and it's just like the most amazing conversation she's ever had. Up all hours of the night, I mean, like, I think 42, 72 hours straight, just like talking to him. And it is this like weird chain of events where at first they can't meet because she is like going on a vacation. And then there's like this wild snowstorm. They're in New York City and it's just like thing after thing and some of it is on her. So she's like, not even suspicious at first. But then she starts, okay, we've got to meet in person at some point and, you know, there's excuse after excuse and two months in, she's like getting really like, okay, something is up here and Ethan, all of a sudden, is cancer. And it's like the telltale signs, like anyone who's watched catfish, like you know. And then he gets manipulative as turning it on her. Why can't you just be supportive? And she's like, let me come be there and be supportive with you. He's like, no, I don't want you to see me like this. And so she is so suspicious two months in that she starts like, like I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out who Ethan is. And the school he said that he went to for high school MIT. She's like, I actually know someone who went to both. And she reaches out to this guy and the guy is like, you know, it's so weird. Someone else reached out to me to ask about this guy. - Oh, that's weird. - Mm-hmm. So she goes to this other woman, turns out this woman has the same interaction with Ethan and has been like trying to meet up for even longer, but they live out of state. And they kind of like team up. And they together realized that there was this third woman who Ethan would always kind of use against them. His ex from like London or something. British, they call her British Anna. They're like, maybe she's actually real. And so they find her. She has been in this like years long relationship with Ethan, never met. And it is like, it's not like, just that he won't meet them. It's like the amount of manipulation and control and it's not, he never has for money. He just like takes all their time, all their attention. I mean, I don't know how he was doing this three times because the messages are all day every day. They come together. And this is where it's like a catfish story like I've never heard because like I've heard every catfish story. And they find out that Ethan is this woman named Emily Slutsky. Like you couldn't make it. You couldn't make it. That's her real name. You couldn't make it up. Stop. Well, I wouldn't need to catfish too if that was my news. She, well, they still, that's the crazy part, right? And he's not going to hear about catfish, catfishing. They're like these like sad lonely people who just like wish they had a different life. Okay. So she really went to MIT. Oh, wow. She is now the she's okay. She's the assistant medical director over women's health because she's an OBGYN. And how does she have time for this? Who's actively like taking care of women all day every day? They have reported her to her medical school, to the chairman at their hospital. And everyone's like, no, because they've saved every message. And it's like, it's twisted. I don't know like it's like a game for her. How is she doing the voice? Well, before she wasn't, she wouldn't get on the phone or she would like they would talk to Ethan's sister who would be her. Got it. And she swears she's not doing it anymore. But I'm like with AI being what it is now we just talked about AI. But also the addiction this is. And this was all consuming. And like I think all of us, all of me, I mean, now I'm so invested. I've been I've been working with Anahebari. So she wrote a whole book about this called There There Is No Ethan. I bought the rights to it because I'm like deeply obsessed. Yeah. And I've got our investigative team looking into where Emily went to high school. Like how this is like manifesting is she still doing this? Like is do her patients know this? Right. Like you're going to go see someone to do your pap smear or like deliver your baby. No, you're fucking unwell. It's what you should not be doing that wild. That is crazy. So she after the book came out, she she she went by her married name Emily Moran's smart in general. But well, she can change it again. I don't like it. These weren't like these were like really brilliant smart women. Successful women that Ethan Emily was targeting. And I mean, like what I love about the story too is like it can be anyone. It's not like you don't like you're not a sad person if you fall for something like this. This happens. And it is like the people. I mean, I swear there's like mind games like the way they talk about like mind control and keeping you up and sleep deprivation. And oh for sure. I think it can happen to anyone. And I know people get like, oh, how how does it happen? And it's just you you also believe what you want to believe. Right? Like they're getting it's hard out there. They're getting these people at very vulnerable times. They really are. This episode is brought to you by Opel. The first over the counter daily birth control pill available in the US. I think one thing that doesn't get talked about enough is the mental load of managing everyday life. All the little things that you have to plan, schedule, remember, it adds up quickly. Did you know that about a third of women face barriers to accessing prescription birth control? Whether that's getting an appointment, taking time off of work or school, dealing with insurance, or just managing all of it. But now Opel is empowering women by putting birth control in their control. 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Make sure you click the link in the description to download the app. Have the code automatically added to your account so you can use it later. Thank you, SeatGeek. Do you have like your top five things that you can do to stay vigilant to be aware of your surroundings? I mean, we have crime to give life rules that have like come up over the course of eight episodes. Yeah. And some of them are like, I mean like basic ones that it's not a thing to do. But it's like, you never know anyone ever. Like and it's that idea that you don't know what happens behind closed doors. You don't know how people are going to behave when they feel cornered or in a bad situation. This idea that it can't happen here or happen to me. Most crime happens by someone who you know. Yeah. Like it's not it's not that random serial killer that we're all the most afraid of. It's like people who are in your life. We talk a lot about like, you know, like don't stay in certain places. Avoid like certain areas. We've got like if you're ever in a situation, never take a polygraph. Always get a lawyer. I don't care if you think it makes you look guilty. It will be the thing that keeps you out of prison. So we've got our like crime junkie life rules. And we also noted we also created our like if I go missing folder because you know, we realized how little sometimes police will push or sometimes they even know. And so it's literally like this file that we've gotten people who've reached out and be like, this actually like saved my loved one. It's just like a list of like if I go missing, these are the things to do. And we're working on more and more resources like that because I found so many families. Nobody prepares to be a true crime episode. Yeah. And so many families, you hope and pray that law enforcement are going to take care of you. But like I said, we're finding more and more that's not the case. And people are having to be their own investigator, their own advocate. And so we're trying more and more to create resources to be like, I'm in this impossible situation. What do I do? And where can you find those resources? So right now that if I go missing folder is on our website crimejunkie.com and we're going to be building out an entire resources tab coming soon with those like, how do I file a FOIA? How do I get records? What do I need to ask for? That I think is going to be really helpful for families. What case are you besides the Arizona one that you're the most embedded in right now? I think it's this Melissa Cassius one, this woman who went missing last year in 2025. She left work, or she dropped her husband off at work. They work at an hour and 15 minutes away at Los Alamos National Laboratory. And she works in a different building than him. She normally drops him off and then goes to her building. But she drops him off and she drove home for some reason. And she told her daughter that she forgot her work badge, she was just gonna work from home. But we know that's not true because she used her work badge to like get in to drop him off. And she's seen dropping her sandwich off that afternoon at her daughter's work. So she's like alone, she's fine, she's okay. But then she just stops responding to messages. And so her daughter comes home, her husband comes home from work. And they find her keys, her purse, her wallet, and both of her old phone and her new phone factory white. And like her eye cloud account has been wiped. That is really hard to do. - It is. - Yeah. - That's what the agent told us. - Even if you think you've wiped it. - Wait, have you wiped your eye cloud before? - No. - Okay, no. - You spoke with an authority. - Oh, no, but because we've been like, how does this still exist? And they're like no matter how many times you think you delete something, like it's really never gone. - Yes. - And so for something to be factory wipe, like even, I mean people do like resets on phones all the time. - That's easy. - That's easy. - Yeah. - The eye cloud reset is strangely hard, but like comes strangely hard. - And so for a long time, her husband, like truly does and says all the weirdest things to where it's easy to go with like the old true crime trope of like husband did it. - Right. - But then they find video footage of her walking alone when we know he's at work, her daughter's at work, and she's walking along the highway by herself with the backpack. - On the highway. - Yeah, like which is like near their home. - And never to be seen again. - That's so weird. - So did she look out of it? - Nope, she was like walking just like purposefully. - Okay. - Heading east to, we don't know where. There was like a sighting of someone that saw a blue truck near her and then when they looked back, her and the truck were gone. They don't see her going to the truck, but it's kind of like the insinuation. And everyone wonders like did she walk away? Did she get, did something happen to her? - So she just on a walk and then something happened to her? Did someone plan something? She, recently there was an article that came out that is maybe connecting her to all those, like I don't know if you've gotten served this, so like missing murdered scientists. - Yes, the 11. - So she worked at Los Angeles National Laboratory. - No. - She was a administrative assistant. - When people do stuff with like Big Pharma, though those people go missing. - I understand because you're gonna interfere with Big Pharma trillion dollar industry, cool. Isn't this helping our government and everything? - But I don't think it's our government that's doing it. - No, I don't either. For this instance, 'cause what these scientists are doing is so helpful for our government and for us, from what I understand. - Yeah, so who is doing this? I know if it was that easy. - I don't know. - Right, but I'm not the one with all the secrets. But I don't know, it's like to me, it's like big corporation. - It's insane. - It's also getting the point where it's like weird now, right? Like 11 people is like, why isn't our government more interested in this? Why are we like just like us fringe people on the internet sounding like weirdos? - It was bizarre that like not one acknowledgement of this. I'm like, some of our like biggest secrets, some of the biggest like advancements in technology. And we're talking about plasma, we're talking about aerospace engines. Like you gotta be, I'm gonna send you this, like this, let's say you're right at thread, but it is like of these, there's one woman who recently ruled her death as suicide, but these messages came out that she had sent someone that she knew before she died. And it's like the craziest read, have you haven't seen these yet? - No, you have to send them to me. - I have to send them to you. And like TBD people wanna go down the rabbit hole, you can like link out to them. - Yes, I need to read this. - So few questions that I have that I've always, and I don't, I know you're not part of the police, but for like, not yet. - The Idaho murders. - Yeah. - So Brian Cobrager, something like that, where he, he did it. There's not a question if he did do it or didn't do it. - I have a few questions. So one, why are we making, like why does anyone make the family go through this trial, have to relive all of this? I get it's a sentencing thing. Is it death row or is it how long the term is, but I've always wondered if it's that concrete, like we know this happened, why do they make the families go through all of that? - Well, they don't, I guess they don't make them. Brian Cobrager has a right to a trial. Like, I mean, it's, this is the framework of how the justice system is supposed to work. Like you're supposed to be giving your day in court for the times when it isn't, you know, they got the wrong person or to prevent corruption. I mean, again, I think it's not exactly working as it's intended, but I also think that like a good prosecutor involves the family in those decisions to where if they're gonna offer a plea deal, a good prosecutor works with the family and they decide that together. So that way the family can decide like, sometimes they, they want to go to trial because trial is what actually will provide answers 'cause oftentimes in a plea deal situation, you don't have to say anything. - But that's what I heard the family so upset about. I heard that they gave them a plea deal without the family's knowing and now he's just sitting there silently like I don't have to explain anything. - Exactly. - Or I would have been like, I will do whatever. I need to know why the fuck you did this, why them? - I know. And this is one where I think that they're getting a lot of backlash because they took the deal and it's like they're saying we saved taxpayer money by doing this, like it was very clear cut. And then I mean, you kind of wonder like, is the why as important in this one? I mean, he's clearly like off his rocker, like a sociopath. - Yeah. - And like those cases are really strange where it's like was, you know, he was clearly studying up on this, was he trying to commit the perfect murder? Do we need to do the families need to know why? I mean, I, they're entitled to it. But I don't know, I don't know if you would have gotten like, is there a satisfying answer? Is there a satisfying why? No matter what he says, it's gonna be nothing. Will make sense or be enough or justify anything or I don't know. - No, I agree with you there and that's a very good point. I understand and I don't understand this part. Why judges will issue like a gag order on the families or anybody involved? Don't speak about this to the media because we don't want to sway the jury in any way. And I respect that privacy, but also this is 2026. The juries are gonna be exposed to some media outlet. Like for me, God forbid, I was in that position. I would rather it be like from our mouths, like the truth as opposed to who knows what other media outlets are gonna say and if it's gonna be the right information. - Oh, I agree, but I think that's part of the problem is like, I don't know that in court, juries hear the full story. There are so many rules about what can be admitted and what can't be admitted. And I mean, that's why so many cases get overturned on the defense of like poor counsel. It's like you're as good as your lawyer or as good as the investigator that your lawyer has. And so what they're trying to protect isn't necessarily like the truth or even the case that they're trying to protect the case that gets presented. And I agree, I think that's frustrating. Like I think that we should be able to just like lay out everything and make a decision based on everything, not have to like jump through these weird loopholes that again, I know where they are to try and like protect us and make sure that nobody gets railroaded. It's just, this is where it's like, hey, what we're doing isn't working. Right, we should maybe like and it started in 2026. We have to update the system. Yes, yes, that's what we're dealing with stuff like tech and all these things that like it's like a foreign world compared to how it was a hundred years ago. I'm always fascinated about the medium aspect. Like I know sometimes in missing children's cases or I know that mediums do get along, some do work with law enforcement. What do you feel about that? I'm into it. So I think like anything, it's so sad because I feel like so many families get taken advantage of in like a time when like they're already going through the worst thing. People will be, we'll reach out to them and exploit them. I mean like shady PIs, people who, you know, say their dogs can do magic when they can't and mediums. But I like very much believe in something, I just don't think that like the world as we know it is just like that black and white. And I've seen enough or had enough experiences that I think that there are some very legit people who can tap into something. Like I've seen them solve cases, I've seen them locate people no one else can find. And so when it's the right person, the right family member, the right circumstances, they're, you know, they're not in it for anything other than trying to solve it. And especially for the cases that are, like you'll try anything, like why not? - Right. - It's, you know, if they're not exploiting the family, there really is no harm. - Right. - And if you've tried everything else, sometimes this is like the only thing. And so I mean, I've worked with a ton of families who have really, really believed in it, or even been like really changed. I recently, did you follow the Gabby Petito thing at all? - Yes. - I recently met her stepdad and he was saying, he's like, you know, I was always like, I went to this, you know, something where there was this medium and you know, it's like, Someone in the audience had someone die. He's like, I'm like, okay. And he's like, but then after the thing, you know, there's no cameras. There's no nothing. This person comes up to me and just says something that like, there's no way they could have known. And like stuff like that will happen. And I think that like it can, it can be very helpful. And sometimes it doesn't lead you to anything, but it can like bring a lot of peace, which I think is it's own help. I believe in all that stuff too. You know, I do. And I think like you said, some, there's good doctors, there's bad doctors, there's good lawyers, like everything there's bad and good too. And I think some take advantage, but I think there are some that come from a place of good and really want to help. Yeah. And for that, I really appreciate that gift. I think that's what it's here for. You're talking about serious cases here. Like you ever get afraid, like maybe I said too much because you have so many eyes and ears on you. I do not think about that. Well, I think about it. But I actually 'm on the opposite end where it's like, it's what I love about podcasting and how quick something can come out into the world. It's because I think that like truth is the best defense. And like the more people can talk about this stuff, like that is that protects you more than anything else. And maybe it, maybe I'm being naive. But no, I agree with what you're saying. I think if you draw attention to it, if you can give people talking about things, putting yourself in a spotlight, putting the issue in a spotlight, it's like the dark shit happens in the shadows. Yes, it does. So what's next for you? So we are, I just hired a head of TV and film. So as much as I love podcasting and podcasting is it will always be the center of what I do. Like this, this medium, it's like so wonderful, especially for investigative journalism. But there are so many stories that I just think need to be brought to a bigger audience. So we just brought a head of TV and film on to bring some of our IP to those areas in scripted, but really like in documentaries, making our, you know, crime junkie into a version of a TV show. So I think we'll be doing that. That would be great. I'm like jazz, man. I'm really like passionate about this like side project I have where I want to make crime junkie junior. So I, there, well, there's been like nothing since Nancy Drew. That's really like what Nancy Drew was for me. Exactly. And I'm like, I think there is, because I hear from moms all the time, they're like, don't, they're like, you know, don't think my bad mom, I let my like 10-year-old listen. And I'm like, I was that 10-year-old. And so I'm like, there's, I think there's a really like great space for mysteries for this content, especially for the educational content these kids are faced with just like a world that like I couldn't even wrap my head around when I was that age. If we can prepare them, if we can educate them, I think not talking about this stuff is what it's what it's about the kid episode. It's like you've got to know what you're dealing with to know how to prevent it to fight it. And so I think there's a whole world of content for like the next gen of crime junkies that I want to make. My stepdad, we would watch rescue 9-1-1 and unsolved mysteries together. I miss Robert's time every day of my life. Oh my gosh. That is crazy. No, but like not even by my choice, like that's what he would watch. And then I would just be laying in bed like fascinated. And it's probably what started all this who knows. I never remember being scared at night. It wasn't that like it's just something it's strange like your it was just some like how you said some people are just built for it. And I think that's yeah, I was just built to watch that. Unsolved mysteries. I always joke that John Walsh was my first boyfriend because we had fun every Saturday night together. Same. He was cheating on you with me. But yeah, I love that for you because it's that's something that we are missing. And I've got, I mean, my daughter's for now. And so as she like I see her like she loves if I tell her a mystery story. And I'm like, oh, there's like there's my little crime junkies out there. Yeah. And generational shall be. Oh, yeah, you know, that's crazy. That's so fun. That is fun. Is there anything that you don't tell her? Like do you not want her to know about certain things? I mean, like I don't talk to her about like, you know, gruesome crimes or anything like that. And we talk about a lot about danger. And I don't even say stranger danger because like I said earlier, most of the time, especially with kids, the danger is somebody that they know. It's a good point. And so we talk about like about it not being her job to make people comfortable and about boundaries. And we talk about what's normal and not normal, what to do. If she feels uncomfortable, there are no secrets. There are only surprises because surprises people find out about. And adults never going to ask you to keep a secret. So I'm using a lot of love that. Yeah. I mean, it's something that I don't remember where I heard it from. But I'm like, that's so important. I was like an adult will never ask you to keep a secret. We can, there can be surprises. We're like, you know, dad's doing something, but mom's going to find out. Right. And we're going to share that. I love that. That's like, I'm like, I tell everyone to try and instill that in their kids because it's, it's, you know, it's all about shame and they're, it's never their job to protect someone either. Right. Because I do know secrets, but my daughter does spill the beans because you know, that of a secret, but that's so smart to say no secrets, but they're going to be surprises. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Ashley Flowers, this was amazing. Thank you so much. I loved this. I couldn't go on and on, but you and I will get I know sold or something. We'll have to do like a little true crime Warner sometime. We need a conspiracy corner. Yes, conspiracy corner. I mean that I had so much fun. And I have so many other cases and so many other things, but we'll save that for another time. Thank you. This is wonderful. Thank you.